straight to the mines of the family, exactly what they are going through. —— minds. absolutely dreadful to hear, but those with the mac witness impact statements are just that, they have an impact like this. they do leave you a little breathless and speechless as well. those proceedings are continuing inside manchester crown court, you can see those pictures on one side of your screen, that is the outside of the court and those victim impact statements are being read inside the court. you can see the flowers being laid at the time, they are not from today, they are from at the time of olivia's death. some really, really difficult details in the courtroom, we want to stay focused on the inside, because at the moment, there is no feed inside. the cameras are set up and ready to go, but they are

not switched on yet. we can go back now to daniel sanford who can explain to us just the process behind these cameras being switched on, when and where that happens. having done the experimentation, the appeal court in the supreme court, the decision was made eventually last year, that we should go back and start thinking about whether there should be cameras allowed in there should be cameras allowed in the criminal courts, the crown courts, the place where the most serious cases are heard. and so eventually a decision was made. that yes, cameras should be allowed in court but only for that very last bit of the process, the final bit for thejudge passed bit of the process, the final bit for the judge passed sentence. bit of the process, the final bit for thejudge passed sentence. no cameras for the evidence, witnesses, lawyers making their arguments in court and no cameras for any of those victim impact statements that are going on at the moment at manchester crown court, but there is a camera there for the moment when

thejudge actually a camera there for the moment when the judge actually passes sentence. and the calculation of that sentence is something we had started to hear a little bit about over the last few minutes and that is you start with a minimum term, so if you have been convicted of murder that is a life sentence, that is what you are going to get. essentially, the state owns your life for the rest of your life but it doesn't mean you will spend all of that time necessarily behind bars. there is a minimum term set by thejudge, the minimum amount of time that we spend in prison and calculating what that minimum term should be is thejudge�*s responsibility. there are some guidelines and you start with a starting point depending on the seriousness of the offence. we have heard a lot about the starting point being maybe 30 years minimum term in prison but then from that starting point you can get up and down, so there might be things that make the defence worse so you get aggravating

circumstances which increase the figure of 30 up and mitigating circumstances which reduce it down, so that number, 30, that we have heard isn't necessarily what the minimum term will be so when the judge passes sentence, what she will say is that you are sentenced to life in prison and then a minimum term of... and that number will probably be i would guess above that 30 starting point that has been suggested and all of that will be on camera. thejudge will suggested and all of that will be on camera. the judge will review quite detailed reasoning behind that, some of it legally complicated for a couple of minutes during the televised sentencing then it will all become much clearer, much less legal as the actual sentence is passed as she would only directly address thomas cashman but we know that he will not actually be there in the dock. that he will not actually be there in the dock-— in the dock. straight back to manchester _ in the dock. straight back to manchester and _ in the dock. straight back to manchester and our - in the dock. straight back to - manchester and our correspondent in the dock. straight back to _ manchester and our correspondent who can give us more of an update, but

when. , ., , ., , can give us more of an update, but when. , ., , .,, , ., when. cheryl korbel has started . ivina when. cheryl korbel has started aaivin her when. cheryl korbel has started giving her victim _ when. cheryl korbel has started giving her victim impact - when. cheryl korbel has started - giving her victim impact statement. she is holding a teddy bear. you have seen on thursday she was seen holding this pink teddy bear that she grasp as she went into court as she grasp as she went into court as she had it with her as she came in with her children and otherfamily members today. cheryl has been outlining a bit about 0livia herself. cheryl said she was 36 when she had 0livia, she already had to smack children, ryan and chloe, 0livia was six weeks premature, at the time she was born she fitted in one hand, and olivia slept in her room until she was one and chloe insisted was —— her sister was like a second mother to her. she redressed the dog gizmo in a blanket and put him in a pram and push around the house, and they had heard

about the work done by the princes trust and donated her two children who had lost theirs. she was due to harper's cup and donate to the sick children, but she was killed five days before the appointment. some tragic details coming out of court from my colleaguejudith moritz who is in court, clearly very depressing for everyone involved, and this victim impact statement reveals those events in court. we should reinforce that _ those events in court. we should reinforce that warning _ those events in court. we should reinforce that warning that - those events in court. we should reinforce that warning that we i those events in court. we should. reinforce that warning that we are going to be hearing upsetting details of the impact of this, and occasionally seeing upsetting pictures also. mark eason is our home editor. i want to ask first about these victim impact statements. i know that it is slightly out of your remit but it is impossible to hear these details coming out of court and not be

affected by them.— coming out of court and not be affected by them. coming out of court and not be affected b them. , , , ., ., , affected by them. deeply moving, as ou affected by them. deeply moving, as you suggest- — affected by them. deeply moving, as you suggest- a _ affected by them. deeply moving, as you suggest. a reminder _ affected by them. deeply moving, as you suggest. a reminder that - affected by them. deeply moving, as you suggest. a reminder that the - you suggest. a reminder that the nature of crime and what i call the tail of a crime. we know that some crimes some people recoverfrom quickly. it may surprise people that being mad in the street, for instance, people tend to bounce back, not everyone, but people tend to bounce back in a couple of weeks or months and it is something they can live with, but there are of course crimes that people never recover from, course crimes that people never recoverfrom, the people themselves who are murdered, that is the end of their life but for all of their family and their friends, the their life but for all of their family and theirfriends, the impact of that event is, frankly, life changing. and that is what these impact statements i think remind us of, that there are certain crimes which go so deep inside of us, and the impact of which lasts so long, that we, as a society, really do need to focus on those crimes. it is

interesting, perhaps, to think that, we are talking here about the fallout from a territorial drug gang battle in liverpool, but there are other crimes which in the past we didn't treat with the seriousness they deserve, and i am thinking of child sexual abuse, domestic abuse and so on, crimes which now actually the police take much more close interest in, particularly because they recognise this long tail and what really comes across, when you hear there impact statements, i think they are a brilliant way of helping people come to terms with the horror of what they have been through, to write it down and to say this in a courtroom in public. it is an important way of being able to deal with their grief and the trauma of it all. it is also, i think, really good reminder of the impact of crime itself. not all crime,

certain crimes much more than others. 0bviously, certain crimes much more than others. obviously, the murder of a nine—year—old girl, however, whatever the circumstances, is something that is going to affect her close family and friends incredibly. and they will never truly recover from it. incredibly. and they will never truly recoverfrom it. but incredibly. and they will never truly recover from it. but also incredibly. and they will never truly recoverfrom it. but also it has a real impact on the wider society, on the streets where she lived, in liverpool there is a city and on us as a country, also. ihell and on us as a country, also. well ut, and on us as a country, also. well put. mark. _ and on us as a country, also. well put, mark. thank _ and on us as a country, also. well put, mark. thank you _ and on us as a country, also. well put, mark. thank you very much for that. just to remind people who are watching in various different devices, the live pages up and running on this. what it gives you there is some of the dispatches from judith moritz who is inside court, the cameras are not bowling at the moment, sojudith are sending updates to us here in the newsroom and that to that life page on the

website. sue, do keep a cross that, and i think we have another update —— so do keep across that. we are getting more details, and they are difficult and upsetting, rowan? the? difficult and upsetting, rowan? they are difficult and _ difficult and upsetting, rowan? tie: are difficult and upsetting as difficult and upsetting, rowan? ti21: are difficult and upsetting as you get from gerald's statement the sense of loss, the sense of devastation that any parent losing a child will feel —— from cheryl's statement. she says that it is quite without her as she cannot cope with the silence. every afternoon at 2:30pm, she thinks at the school pick—up, my mind keeps telling me that i have forgotten to pick it up from school, everywhere i go there is a constant reminder that she's not with me. this happened in our

home where we should have been safe, it felt safe, it was as if time stood still, her new bike was there, we had to pack up our old life, packing my baby's beans into a box, no mother should ever have to do that. it is so hard to get back to the area where i grew up and raise mayjust make children. 0n the night that i realised liv had been shot, i could not do cpr in my hand because of my injury, i felt so helpless, my worst nightmare was being separated from her, iwas worst nightmare was being separated from her, i was the first person to hold my baby and should have been i cannot get over the fact that cashman kept shooting after hearing the screams, a reference to the fact that after the first shot came through the door, thomas cashman put his gun around the door and fired again despite hearing the screaming hysterics inside and the circumstances of what had happened, so you get a sense of the effects of

this on three peoples lives, which will stay with them forever. find will stay with them forever. and 'ust for will stay with them forever. and just for peeple _ will stay with them forever. and just for people joining us recently, just for peoplejoining us recently, rowan, you have been talking us through the impact statements, but just a little recap of what people just a little recap of what people just tuning in on what we are expecting to happen and what we are waiting for. expecting to happen and what we are waitin: for. ~ . ., expecting to happen and what we are waitin: for. ~ . . . expecting to happen and what we are waitin for. . ., . . . waiting for. what we are hearing at the moment _ waiting for. what we are hearing at the moment is _ waiting for. what we are hearing at the moment is victim _ waiting for. what we are hearing at the moment is victim impact - the moment is victim impact statements from 0livia pratt—korbel�*s family about the impact that her mother —— murder has had on them, then we expect there to be a short break before the judge in the case, justice amanda yet will hand down a sentence to thomas cashman. thomas cashman himself has refused to appear on the court. so the judge will be addressing an empty dock. just as amanda mccarty will pass on cashman for the murder

of olivia pratt—korbel and the other mother she was found guilty of, and the attempted murder of a man called joseph nee, wounding 0livia's mother and other firearms charges. joseph nee, wounding 0livia's mother and otherfirearms charges. the basic sentence is 30 years for a murder where firearms are used, that is the minimum time he could face but thejudge might is the minimum time he could face but the judge might decide their aggravating factors in the case which should mean a higher sentence or she may decide there are mitigating factors which could lead to a lower sentence, but whatever, he will face a significant period of the rest of his life behind bars after this. the rest of his life behind bars after thie— the rest of his life behind bars after this. . ~' , ., , . the rest of his life behind bars after this. ., ~ i. , . ., after this. thank you very much for that. back after this. thank you very much for that- back to _ after this. thank you very much for that. back to daniel— after this. thank you very much for that. back to daniel sanford, - that. back to daniel sanford, because we are waiting for those cameras to be switched on in the courtroom. daniel, just talk us through that process. i courtroom. daniel, just talk us through that process.- courtroom. daniel, just talk us through that process. i use this examle through that process. i use this example of— through that process. i use this example of court _ through that process. i use this example of court one _ through that process. i use this example of court one of - through that process. i use this example of court one of the - through that process. i use this| example of court one of the old bailey to explain what has been going on and what will happen next. we have been talking about the

victim impact statements. normally they would take place from the witness box. that is where people have been describing the effect the crimes have had on them. that will not be on camera. that is happening now and for the reasons you explained earlier, the decision was made that that should not be something that happens on camera. the lawyers have been arguing what the sentence should be, the lawyers from the defence and prosecution, and again that has happened off camera so that is arguments about what the minimum term served in dozen should be, what the aggravating and mitigating circumstances should be, and the only thing we will see is theyjudge herself when she passes sentence. this is something that has been going on for nine months now, so the first one was back injuly last year. this is thejudge sarah munro passing sentence in the case of ben 0liver, that was the first one to be done on camera but it does happen quite a lot since then so for example, the woman who pleaded guilty to causing the death by careless driving of harry dunn, she

was sentenced in court one of the old bailey, wayne couzens, who murdered sarah everard, he was sentenced on camera, david carrick the other police officer who was convicted of multiple rapes, he was sentenced on camera. those cases were in london back in there is not only been in london, we've had cases in cardiff, at preston county court and today thomas cashman being sentenced at manchester crown court. what we are going to get is a reasonably lengthy reading out of the sentence by the judge who will go through some of the bare facts of the case, you will then lay out what she believes the minimum term ought to be, what the aggravating and mitigating circumstances that she took into account are, and then she will turn to the dock where thomas cashman should be setting but he has refused to appear, and she will deliver at that point the sentence. in the middle of the sentencing it can get quite complicated when the laws that's been discussed, but the beginning and the end will be, i

think, crystal clear. but what has been really interesting about this televised sentencing is that when i first heard that we would have televised sentencing i thought that is not really the most interesting piece of all of these very high—profile cases that i have covered over the years. but what people are found is actually the fact that the cameras focus only that has helped people to understand the sentencing process and people who sit through the whole sentence will actually learn quite a lot about the criminal justice will actually learn quite a lot about the criminaljustice system, just listening to the judge and how she lays out the sentence that she is going to pass. she lays out the sentence that she is going to oase— she lays out the sentence that she is going to pass-— she lays out the sentence that she is going to pass. daniel, thank you so much. is going to pass. daniel, thank you so much- we _ is going to pass. daniel, thank you so much. we will— is going to pass. daniel, thank you so much. we will go _ is going to pass. daniel, thank you so much. we will go back - is going to pass. daniel, thank you so much. we will go back to - so much. we will go back to manchester. you can see on the side of your screen the outside of manchester crown court. inside is where proceedings are ongoing. standing outside is our correspondent rowan. i know that you are not envisioned back from where

you are, let us know what latest is. —— | you are, let us know what latest is. —— i know that you're not in vision. the statement from cheryl gives us an idea of what she has been robbed of by the death of olivia. she says that she cannot think of building their lives without liv. she refer to her grandmother having died and olivia will never have a first 0livia will never have a first communicable where prom dress, all of the things that she has been robbed of by the death of olivia. thomas cashman's barrister has started speaking in mitigation for thomas cashman. he says the court cannot be sure of the evidence that there was at intention to kill 0livia pratt—korbel, that is reference to the fact that when thomas cashman fired his gun he fired into a door, not knowing he was on the other side of it and that the bullet itself went through the door, through 0livia's mother's hand

and fatally injured 0livia on the night of the shooting, the judge interrupted to say that he surely intended to kill the convicted drugs dealerjoseph nee. we are now into pleas of mitigation from thomas cashman was like barrister before the judge decides to retire and state what sentence you will hand down. i cap let's cross to mark easton again, who is in our newsroom. easton again, who is in our newsroom-— easton again, who is in our newsroom. h ., ~ ., ., newsroom. let's talk about the idea of 'ustice newsroom. let's talk about the idea ofjustice being _ newsroom. let's talk about the idea ofjustice being done _ newsroom. let's talk about the idea ofjustice being done and _ newsroom. let's talk about the idea ofjustice being done and being - newsroom. let's talk about the idea | ofjustice being done and being seen to be done. that ofjustice being done and being seen to be done. . , ., , to be done. that is a very powerful art of to be done. that is a very powerful part of what _ to be done. that is a very powerful part of what we — to be done. that is a very powerful part of what we have _ to be done. that is a very powerful part of what we have been - to be done. that is a very powerful part of what we have been seen i part of what we have been seen today. listening to the detail of what happened to 0livia on that terrible, terrible night and the impact it has had on herfamily and friends, no one can't help but be really touched by that, and that is why i think that this case really is

one of those cases where it is actually very important that the public, thatjustice is seen to be done, notjust by those directly involved in the court case but is seen to be done by a much wider public. this is such an awful crime, and the emotional impact would be felt by millions of people, i'm sure. so i think it is terrifically helpful that we are going to be able to see the sentencing, something that we can focus upon, and think about the words of the judge when they come, and the fact that we are doing this on bbc news with a live page, i can show you here, you can literally catch up with all of the live news coming out of court on the bbc live page and that seems to be very part of this kind of story of seeing justice done and that is one of the principles of the justice system in this country, of course. thank you for that, mark. let's

focus again on the court. because the updates we are getting from inside, as i mentioned a few months ago, and markjust touched on, the updates we are getting from inside the court are from our correspondent judith moritz who is sitting around listening and describing the scene and describing and telling us outside, the victim impact statements, in the words of 0livia's family, as they are read out in court, and that we have some detail about what is happening in there, but some people being in tears as they hear those words and that is hardly surprising, given the circumstances, given what happened and given the words that we are hearing. some really powerful lines, one from 0livia's mother saying that it is so very quite without her, i just cannot cope with the silence.

—— very much one. she says that every afternoon at half past two she thinks about the school pick up and her mind keep telling her that she has forgotten to pick her up from school. so, haunting, painfulwords listen to. judith moritz is inside the court listening to those. and as well, what we mentioned, what we will be waiting for as both sides, defence and prosecution, will be outlining their arguments regarding sentencing. thejudge outlining their arguments regarding sentencing. the judge will be taking that on board and, once those legal proceedings have wrapped up, victim impact statements have wrapped up, there will be a short break. the judge then retires, and then that will return to the courtroom, and once everyone is back in that court after that short break, cameras will then be switched on and, at that

point, the sentencing starts. and that will be the bit that will be on camera. let's go back to rowan for an update about what is happening outside the court and a bit of a reminder, of the background, rowan, for all of us. reminder, of the background, rowan, for all of us— for all of us. this focuses on events on — for all of us. this focuses on events on august _ for all of us. this focuses on events on august 22 - for all of us. this focuses on events on august 22 last - for all of us. this focuses on l events on august 22 last year, for all of us. this focuses on - events on august 22 last year, in the liverpool area of dovecote when thomas cashman attempting to kill a fellow drug dealerjoseph nee in the street, joseph nee try to run into the family home of olivia pratt—korbel, managed to get in, and was chased by thomas cashman. thomas cashman, as 0livia's mother was trying to shut her front door, fired a gun into the front door sending a bullet through the door, through the hand of 0livia's mother, fatally injuring 0livia who had been disturbed by the commotion, had come

downstairs saying mummy, i am scared, was on the stairs and the bullet that went through the front door went through the hand of 0livia's mum and fatally injured 0livia's mum and fatally injured olivia and she died within one hour orso olivia and she died within one hour or so at alder hey children's hospital. thomas cashman was arrested and charged with 0livia's murder and a number of other offences. he stood trial at manchester crown court for the last three and a half weeks and last thursday was found guilty on all charges, including the murder of nine—year—old 0livia pratt—korbel. his sentencing is taking place today. at the moment we are hearing from john cooper casey, the barrister representing thomas cashman during that trial. he has been speaking in mitigation. he said in court that on the evidence you could not be sure that thomas cashman intended to kill 0livia up pratt—korbel when he fired the gun. mrs justice pratt—korbel when he fired the gun. mrsjustice yip interrupted to say that he surely intended to kill

joseph nee, and thejudgment on to say that there would be different sentencing starting points, she said it had been a planned murder of a child it'd be a whole life tariff, where the person is never to released from jail. the starting point for the sentencing from an aduu point for the sentencing from an adult with a firearm used in the case is 30 years. thejudge adult with a firearm used in the case is 30 years. the judge can adult with a firearm used in the case is 30 years. thejudge can move that tariff up or down. the most severe sentence would be up whole life tariff and she said if that was a planned murder of a child that was what he was facing. we are still getting that mitigation on behalf of thomas cashman and then will hear thejudge, thomas cashman and then will hear the judge, justice amanda yip, sentencing thomas cashman for the offences he was found guilty of last week. , , ., ., , i. offences he was found guilty of last week. , ., ., , week. just want to bring you some more details _ week. just want to bring you some more details from _ week. just want to bring you some more details from judith _ week. just want to bring you some more details from judith moritz, . week. just want to bring you some i more details from judith moritz, who is updating our live page, with some more updates on what 0livia's mother said in court, and the usual warning

i'm afraid, it is quite distressing. she said i cannot get over the fact that cashman continued to shoot after hearing screams. i cannot even think about rebuilding our lives without liv. she went on to say that her grandmother passed away last night, and adding that she was relieved that she had lived long enough to see that karen found guilty. just to bring you up—to—date on what is happening, our correspondentjudith moritz is inside the court, updating details to the bbc newsroom and also the live page on the bbc news website and on the app as well, and our correspondent is outside the court, and that is how we are keeping a cross every detail whilst we wait for the cameras to be switched on, we can focus just on the judge, and we can focus just on the judge, and we will get that sentencing as and when. we can speak to peter williams, a retired merseyside police inspector and now senior

lecturer at the liverpooljohn moores university school ofjustice. what is your reaction to this case? well, one of them as a resident on merseyside, completely and utterly horrific, but i think what i have just said has been reiterated and reflected elsewhere, and i would say not only did this particular horrific case receive coverage lately, nationally but also glibly, with the advent of social media. —— also glibly. —— globally. in the light of that spotlight and attention the spotlight changed and was on merseyside police any

merseyside police investigation. so it has been a difficultjourney for the residents of merseyside but i can tell you that we are all very pleased indeed with the unanimous verdicts and the efforts and professionalism which i think have been displayed by mark baker, who is the sig been displayed by mark baker, who is the sio and his investigation team. what would have been some of the challenges in building a case like this? li challenges in building a case like this? ., , challenges in building a case like this? ., , ., , this? li yingli, it was a very complex — this? li yingli, it was a very complex case _ this? li yingli, it was a very complex case -- _ this? li yingli, it was a very complex case -- clearly - this? li yingli, it was a very complex case -- clearly it l this? li yingli, it was a very i complex case -- clearly it was this? li yingli, it was a very - complex case -- clearly it was a complex case —— clearly it was a complex case —— clearly it was a complex case —— clearly it was a complex case which from the outset they had to get to grips with. i was always confident that we would get a successful outcome. i did think there would be two elements to the investigation. 0ne there would be two elements to the investigation. one would be a quick

result, so to speak, where someone is charged within a matter of days. i didn't think that at all. that was the weight prude. and the other sentiment or reaction that i had was that forensic evidence would play a part in it. any criminal investigation these days, any successful prosecution, by the criminaljustice successful prosecution, by the criminal justice system, successful prosecution, by the criminaljustice system, contains elements of forensic evidence. that could be evidence from cctv, orfrom the ring on somebody�*s front door which proved to be the case and proved to be part and parcel of the evidence, of the prosecution. there was also a lot of speculation at the time, i think it was misplaced, regarding the problem merseyside police with pace was that the public would not speak to them. well, i

knew that absolutely was not going to be the case because you can remember the incident of rhys to be the case because you can remember the incident of rhstones, 15 years to the day early in the problems merseyside police had then but what had improved this time was the fact that they had the sheer volume of information that was offered and presented by the public, and that proved to be the case, and that information was translated into intelligence and then evidence and some of that evidence supplied by the public formed part and parcel of the public formed part and parcel of the prosecution here and of course, the prosecution here and of course, the jury returned unanimous verdicts on five counts. so, all in all, this was a really good effort, professional investigation, by merseyside police, but of course the merseyside police, but of course the merseyside public answered and did exactly what they needed to do.

third, would you mind standing by for us? —— peter, would you mind standing by. iwant for us? —— peter, would you mind standing by. i want to go to our corresponding outside the court, rowan. g corresponding outside the court, rowan. �* , ., ., ., ., rowan. a bit more of the mitigation john cooper— rowan. a bit more of the mitigation john cooper casey _ rowan. a bit more of the mitigation john cooper casey was _ rowan. a bit more of the mitigation john cooper casey was arguing - rowan. a bit more of the mitigation john cooper casey was arguing on i john cooper casey was arguing on behalf of thomas cashman. he was arguing that cashman didn't engage in substantial planning or preparation for the shooting. the reason that is key is because that would be seen as an aggravating factor in a crime like this, if the person was seen to have premeditated plan the attack in advance. john cooper is arguing cashman didn't engage in substantial planning or preparation for the shooting. it should be noted he was carrying two weapons at the time of the shooting, both of which were used in the attack. the court is rising briefly for 5—10 minutes so they are now taking a break and we expect to get more details imminently.—

taking a break and we expect to get more details imminently. thank you for that update, _ more details imminently. thank you for that update, rowan. _ more details imminently. thank you for that update, rowan. i _ more details imminently. thank you for that update, rowan. i will- more details imminently. thank you for that update, rowan. i will come| for that update, rowan. i will come back to you, i just for that update, rowan. i will come back to you, ijust paused there to get the latest from court. i wonder what this case highlights in terms of the wider problem. you have spoken about your thoughts on investigation, the challenges and your satisfaction with the outcome. more broadly, a case like this shines a spotlight on drugs and on gun crime. what is your take on the state of that in the uk at the moment and a pleasing effort to counter it? there are several issues there, if we look at the government document, and there are several issues there, if we look at the government document, and in there are several issues there, if we look at the government document, and in re-ards there are several issues there, if we look at the government document, and in re-ards to there are several issues there, if we look at the government document, and in re-ards to the there are several issues there, if we look at the government document, and in regards to the document published in summer 2021, called hour beating a crime plan. they refer to the issue specifically in regards to drugs, and in fact, around the time, they did in fact

instigate an in—depth