voice-over: this is bbc news. we'll have the headlines and all the main news stories for you at the top of the hour, straight after this programme. on today's media show, one of the pioneers of reality tv. hello, hello, hello! fenton bailey's behind rupaul�*s drag race, described by time magazine as "one of the most influential reality "tv shows of all time". the company he founded, world of wonder, has made documentaries about andy warhol, britney spears, monica lewinsky over the years, about police brutality in la, and about the lgbt—supporting tv evangelist tammy faye. they also brought the cult comedy duo adam and joe to channel 4.

fenton, hello, and i wonder whether for you there is a thread that connects all those incredible and different interviewees and programmes? the first thing that connects it all is just things randy and ifound ourselves interested in. that's your partner? yeah, randy, at world of wonder — we founded the company together — but then, i think the other thing that connects it is the sense of maybe — maybe they're all, to some extent, outsiders. adam and joe, for example, were just a couple of kids making videos in their bedroom — and this was sort of before youtube — but they were so brilliant. and i think it's always, often, people who arejudged or dismissed or considered in some way that they exist on the margins, whether it's in terms of respect orjust in terms of visibility, that we're drawn to because often, those stories are fascinating and compelling and need to be heard. you and your company have been at the forefront of what's really been a tv revolution.

kind of almost unseen or unacknowledged, tv has totally transformed our lives and ifound that, actually, it's the least respected genres in what i think is a pretty unrespected medium, television, that have had the most impact — like commercials and infomercials and televangelism and home shopping and public—access tv, which is basically do—it—yourself television. and we're going to come back to all of that, but i wanted to talk to you first about rupaul�*s drag race, because you're probably best known for that. it's a hugely successful show that's become, you know, a franchise, an empire. just for people who might not have watched it, just sum it up, how it works. it's a competition show to find the next drag superstar, and that's how it began. so, it's a reality competition elimination show. but drag race, really, is a parody and — at once, a celebration and a send—up

of all other reality competition shows. we put it all in the pot. it's kind of like a drag queen, really. we slap it all on and out comes this show, rupaul�*s drag race. and, of course, rupaul is a huge — you know, without rupaul, there would be no drag race. randy and i knew rupaulfor... ..we�*ve known him for a long time and we managed him early on in his career and we sat down with him once and said, "you know, we really should do a show with you". and it was tom campbell, our chief creative officer, who said, "you know what you should really do? "what about a reality competition show?", and ru was like, "no. "i will do anything but a reality "competition show". so, off we went and followed up lots of different ideas and pitched them to him, and he said, "you know what? "we should do a reality competition show." and that's rupaul�*s drag race. there it is. and it debuted pretty quietly in 2009... it did. ..on the lgbtq+—focused logo tv network. mmm.

it now — the original us show has produced versions in europe, asia, australia — i think ten countries, in total — and you even have a las vegas residency. did you always know it would go mainstream? well, you know, i would love to say, "yes, of course," but the truthful answer is no. but randy and i always loved drag and we always felt that drag was this — not marginalised, but it existed in underground clubs and it existed on the margins. and yet, here was this amazing celebration and satire of popular culture and celebrity. we never really saw drag in terms of gender. we saw it as this very punk kind of thing that at once made fun of and celebrated. . . craziness. so, ridiculously long answer to your question — no, but yes, you know, we always hoped it would be. and, what, season 15 us... and, of course, the bbc�*s uk version. of course, of course.

and we'll talk about that. yeah. i mean, one of my colleagues actually said that "drag race "is to gay men what sport is to straight men". he said, it's a huge part of the culture, you know — especially in america, you know, gay bars have rupaul videos on their screens, people hold watch parties, people talk about the show a lot but, of course, it's also crossed boundaries, as you talk about, so, how do you sum up its appeal? why is it so popular? i go back to something ru said — "you're born naked "and the rest is drag". and it's such an easy thing to say, and you think, "oh, well, that's funny, that's cute". but actually, it's true. it's profoundly true. and everything we put on is some kind of statement about our identity — or maybe a fantasy about who we wish we were — and so, really, drag is universal in its appeal. and i totally understand that it's emerged from our lgbtq community but i think there's been a misperception that because of that, perhaps it's niche and perhaps it's only of interest to lgbtq+, but it's not.

yeah, and i mentioned the programme spin—offs, we were talking about the bbc — you know, drag race uk is currently gearing up for its fifth season on the bbc — and in your book, you describe getting drag race to the uk as the "holy grail". i always felt, you know, my life has been profoundly changed by watching shows like are you being served?, top of the pops. how did they change your life, when you say that? well, i think that it was... on british tv, there was just this sense of camp that ijust completely identified with, before i even knew really what it was, and that rich tradition. i mean, also, drag has been — you know, you've got danny la rue, you've got benny hill, you've got kenny everett — i mean, you have these amazing entertainment icons who've been fully out there, just very sort of flamboyant and camp, and i think really profoundly important artists

and so, having that, i always wanted drag race to be here in the uk. and i tell you no lie — i went to every network repeatedly, until they were like, "please, don't come "round here trying to sell that show again". so, it did take a long time? oh, yes! everyone said no many, many times, and... over how many years? over about six years. and as we started collecting emmys and awards, i would say, "now look at the show. "what about this? " "yeah, but...", you know? but i always — i always believed, and i know michelle visage — who's co—host with ru — she always believed in the show, too, because, you know, there's nothing — there's nothing so great as british drag. is it something about britain that we have this tradition of pantomime that means we respond to it in a different way from the americans? we do. we definitely do have that panto tradition of the sort of widow twankey and the back of the horse and i mean, it's fabulous, you know? and there is also, i suppose, a puritanism in america. oh, yes!

i mean, you talk about that, actually, you talk about that in terms of tammy faye. you know, obviously, there was this oscar—winning movie about her... mmm. ..but you made the original documentary as well, and you're really interesting about that. have you faced that kind of puritanism when it comes to rupaul�*s drag race in the states? specifically, not so much, but it's obviously something that does have the nation, to some degree, in its grip. i do think that the sort of — this recent trend of sort of extreme right—wing trumpism thing, it actually is puritanism and it is a sort of inability to live and let live, an insistence that there is a certain kind of morality, a desire to be essentially controlling about the lives of others. and, of course, what we've seen in american politics with trump and his like is incredible hypocrisy, so that they espouse these bonkers ideas that they don't even live by themselves.

i suppose what it is — i've thought about it a lot — i think that in increasingly complicated times — which, that's where we live — people have a yearn to turn the clock back and to go back to a simpler time, you know, men should be men and women should be women and the wife should stay in the home. and, you know, all this sort of gender hysteria, it all comes from a desire to turn the clock back and not recognise the fundamental diversity of life itself. and within the context of that, though, you have this hugely successful programme, award—winning across the world. do you see it as a barometer for changing attitudes? i do. i don't think drag race is a political show, ostensibly, but i do think as a show that represents inclusion and diversity and that believes that you can be the fantasy of your imagination and be yourself

and express yourself, i do think that in a way, it becomes the sharp end of the resistance. i mean, it's fairly obvious to say without rupaul, there wouldn't be rupaul�*s drag race but i mean, i think you and your partner, randy barbato, had been 0 had come across rupaul and worked with rupaulfor a long time before this show. did you always realise that rupaul was a star? oh, yeah. you know, like, we go about our lives and life is great and then, every now and then, something incredible happens and you realise that something momentous has happened and i — for me, it was like meeting ru, because there was no question in my mind, or randy's mind, that he was a star. and you know what? there was no question in ru's mind. i mean, he knew he was a star. and we often laugh that it was just really about waiting for the world to catch up. 0k. well, let's go back to the beginning. yeah. as you said, you grew up in the uk. you were influenced,

as you said, by programmes like are you being served?, but you talk in the book about your parents stopping you watching batman when you were six. why was that? well, you know, this was a long time ago and i think colour tvs were quite new — i mean, i'm quite old, at this point — so, and ijust remember, it was so brightly coloured and i think i became sort of overexcited. imean... and it seemed that i became a disruptive child after watching batman! overexcited by the colours and the clothes... just the whole thing. all the "barn!" and "pow!", and they were prancing around in capes and liberace — oh, my gosh, liberace was a villain! and the whole thing was just ridiculous and camp. again, i didn't understand what it was but something about it was like, "oh, wherever this is made, "i want to go to that place". and did that shape the kind of programmes you wanted to make? i think it must have done

because i always gravitated to camp things. magpies go to bright and shiny objects. for me, something camp is a bright and shiny object. and were the first shows you pitched to channel [i collections of shiny things, do you think? yeah, the first show was a show called manhattan cable. and in the states — unlike british tv, in the states, local networks had to provide channels for anyone who wanted to have their own tv show. so, they wouldn't get any money but if they wanted to make a tv show, they would have to air it. and so, eccentric people, ordinary people, real people made their own shows and these shows were very — because they had no money, they were really kind of punk and anarchic and in some ways, they were bad tv, but in other ways, they were incredible tv because they weren't modulated and edited and they weren't professional.

they were very kind of — very punk. and so, ourfirst idea was a show that highlighted, compiled clips of these public access shows. they weren't restricted by a remit to educate and entertain, they were just unto themselves. and did you see — you mentioned educate and entertain — that's obviously part of the sort of reithian bbc values. yeah. did you have a problem with them? i think you said that you thought it was a bit patronising, or very patronising. well, i do think it's patronising to the extent that there was no opportunity for anything else and i do think there was a fear in britain that television was this anarchic force that needed to be controlled for the good of the people. and for better or worse, in america, they didn't look at it that way and they were fine with — anyone who wants to be on tv can be on tv. i'm sure there's pluses and minuses in both. but you brought that to the uk. you pitched that idea of putting ordinary people on tv. yeah, and, erm,

channel [i said yes. it was a golden period because channel [i had been set up specifically to give voice to minorities and to be a showcase for innovative television, so it was a unique opportunity. and you were bringing it from the us. i mean, you write about living in new york in the 1980s, and it's as if the origins of reality tv, that world were everywhere and, not least, through andy warhol's influence. i mean, how much did he anticipate the appeal of reality tv, do you think? oh, my gosh. i mean, i think andy warhol anticipated pretty much everything that surrounds us now but, interestingly, his big passion was tv — i mean, he always had the tv on, he said it was a friend, it kept him company and yet, he never really had success with tv. but towards the end of his life, he made a tv show and i didn't realise this for a long time, but he started off as a public access show.

no—one would commission his show, so he did it on public access. and then, lucky for him, mtv launched and then mtv bought the show, but he started out on public access. and then, very sadly, you know, he died, so he never really realised his tv dreams. because he would've loved big brother, you know? he would've loved drag race. he'd have been a greatjudge. you know, i think the factory, in many ways, was like a preliminary cast of rupaul�*s drag race so, you know, he gathered around him gay people and trans people and misfits and all the sort of flotsam and jetsam, they hung out at the factory and i think the factory very much was a kind of early version of big brother, so he would've just loved the whole look and feel of it. you, personally — forget andy warhol for a second — you know, you were behind, you and your partner, randy barbato, were behind some pretty ground—breaking uk television, like

the adam and joe show. camcorders were the first time that the mass population could get their hands on the means of making their own tv. do you think that was the start of reality tv? you know what? i do. i think that there was a show in america on pbs, i think it was called the family with the louds, and that was a documentary series about a family and it was just interesting that when the cameras were turned on that family — this was in, like, 1972 — and i know there was a uk version of it, too, and i can't quite remember which came first — but i felt that was one of the beginnings of reality tv. and then, i think another one was the rodney king beating in �*92, when the police were caught on camera beating up rodney king. and after that, the police were put on trial, all

because of that tape. all because it was caught on camera. it was on the news around the world. and when the police were acquitted, lajust exploded in riots and for, like, several days, it was like a huge reality show. it was like the world had gone sort of television. and you had the same thing with oj, when he fled down the freeway from — well, pursued by cameras and helicopters and everything. that was another kind of weirdly, mmm, life as a reality show, i suppose. and after rodney king's beating, you gave out cameras to people in south central la. mmm. was that transforming the way — that technology was transforming the way you could tell stories, or the stories that were getting on tv? it was. but to be honest, it was — that idea came from the bbc, the bbc community programme unit. jeremy gibson and robin gutch was doing a series that was very successful in the uk called video diaries and people

would be given a video camera and tell their story, and when the la riots happened, and because they had happened because of this tape, this rodney king tape, randy and i thought, "well, what if we did a kind of mass "video diary exercise, where we gave cameras "to lots of different people in la to tell their stories?" so, really, it was an idea that began with it — and that actually run on the bbc. it was called la stories. la stories, yes. you know, you left the uk for america, as you mentioned, and you went to film school in america, in new york. i did an interview with donna langley, who's the chairman of universal pictures, last year, and she was saying she very much felt — at about the same age as you, i think — that she needed to leave britain to make a success of herself and to, you know, do the things she wanted to do. did you feel the same way? idid. i felt that... i didn't completely understand it at the time because when i was at university, i had no idea,

really, what i wanted to do. and i was reading english, which, you know, is the perfect way to sort of avoid figuring out that kind of stuff. and i was really, really ridiculously lucky that i got this fellowship that allowed me to go to film school. but it was, for me, i think, i have to own the fact that i think i was gay and yes, there's lots of gay people in britain and there is a place for us and it's not illegal but at the same time, ijust felt i would never really be myself, or necessarily accepted. why do you think that was? i don't know. i mean, why was america offering it? well, because america was this anything—goes—place and has traditionally been seen as this place where you can kind of leave your past behind and reinvent yourself.

and it was where andy warhol was, and it was where they made batman & robin, and i saw this film on tv — made—for—tv movie — the naked civil servant, and john hurt played quentin crisp — this incredibly flamboyant, out—there, gay character, who i'd never heard of but was just so mesmerised by this performance. and at the end of it, he's almost beaten up by some youths in the park and he says, erm, he says something like, "you can't touch me. "i am one of the stately homos of england", and they're just standing round, gobsmacked. you know, they don't even throw a punch at him. and he just walks off, and you learn that he moved to america. and ijust remember watching that and thinking, "that's "what i'm going to do". not sure i'm as flamboyant as quentin crisp, but... i mean, he was - quentin crisp was amazing and a genius — but i just felt that i would be able to be myself

in the states. did you ever meet him? i did, yes — several times, actually — and he was fabulous. he was very oracular. he would always make pronouncements, you know? he said, "if, at first, you don't succeed, failure may "be your style". that's very good! i thought that was pretty good, right? ijust wonder, you know, as we wrap up, what is next for you? you know, are there places, for example, you'd still like to take drag race, or do you think there's a chance it could be reaching saturation point? no, because i think, erm... look, i think drag is perfect for television. it's about big impact on the small screen. and our good fortune, to some extent, has been the fact that drag just wasn't on tv before then. i believe drag queens are the future, in the sense that they're like pop stars in the �*70s — you know, i grew up watching top of the pops, and ifeel that today's drag queens are very much like the gods of glitter rock in the �*70s. and i think there's,

you know, room for — well, it's good to see that they're on tv and also having hit records and in plays and in movies and i would like to see a drag race in every country. do you feel you have brought about cultural change, change to society, through that programme? i think the queens have brought about great cultural change because they have shown that you can be yourself, you can be — you can create this image of yourself and you can do great things, you can inspire other people. and i think that that message is a great one for kids to hear growing up, knowing that they don't have to be this or be that. that, really, they can be themselves. and that hopefully, we are just learning to be more — i hate the word "tolerate" because nobody wants to be tolerated — we should be able to embrace everybody and enjoy everybody for their uniqueness and their difference, rather than insisting

that they should be the same. fenton, that is a very uplifting moment to end this. thank you so much. thank you. hello there. the weather for the easter weekend is looking pretty decent for many of us. a lot of places will stay dry and there'll be plenty of sunshine around, too. the temperatures creeping up, particularly easter sunday looks to be a warm one across southern areas. however, it's all changed by the time we head into the bank holiday, easter monday. it turns more unsettled thanks to this area of low pressure. but high pressure dominates the scene, as you can see, for good friday. it starts off chilly, though, with some frost around, early mist and fog, which will clear quite quickly.

as the temperatures rise into the afternoon, could see some fairweather cloud bubbling up — that could spark off the odd shower across southeast england. a bit of cloud just rolling in off the north sea for northeast england, eastern scotland, and along north sea coasts, it'll be quite chilly with an onshore breeze. otherwise, elsewhere after that chilly starts, it's the low to mid—teens for most of us. and then, through friday night into the early part of saturday, temperatures again tumble across central, southern and western areas where skies are clearest. it's particularly cold there, i think, for west midlands, central wales, but eastern scotland, eastern england, more cloud here, so not quite as cold as will be further west. into saturday, then, very little change, high pressure dominates the scene. this weather front getting a little bit closer to northern ireland, but it stays away, i think, throughout the day. so, plenty of sunshine once again through the morning, into the afternoon, a bit of cloud bubbling up — that could just produce the odd shower here and there. but most places will stay dry and those temperatures ranging from around 11—15 degrees again. quite chilly, though, across north east scotland, with the onshore breeze.

easter sunday looks to be a little bit warmer. plenty of sunshine through central and southern areas, a bit more clouds to the east, and then to the west, this weather front starts to bring more of a breeze. outbreaks of rain to northern ireland, the far west of scotland, later in the day. but for the rest of the country, that sunshine around southerly winds, it could be quite warm — up to around 17 degrees in the mildest spots. then it's all change for bank holiday monday. this weather front spreads across the country with some fairly gusty winds, as it does clear through during the second part of the day, it brightens up sunshine and blustery showers, most of the showers in the north and the west, some of them will be fairly heavy. temperatures coming down a touch, particularly in the north and the west, highs of io to around 13 or iii degrees for most. and then, the upcoming new week looks unsettled, low pressure always nearby. it'll stay quite showery. a bit of sunshine around, too, but it will be noticeably cooler.

i'm sure there's pluses and minuses in both.

live from washington, this is bbc news. welcome to viewers on pbs in america. two democratic lawmakers in the state of tennessee expelled by the state legislature over protests for stricter gun control. we'll hear from one of them. the biden white house releases a report blaming the chaotic afghanistan withdrawal on the trump administration. and israel launches air strikes on gaza following an intense rocket bombardment from across the lebanese border. hello and welcome. we start tonight in the us state of tennessee where, in an extraordinary move,

republican legislators who control the house of representatives in the state