voice-over: this is bbc news. we'll have the headlines and all the main news stories for you at the top of the hour, straight after this programme. welcome to hardtalk, i'm stephen sackur. there is no mistaking the deep sense of unease hanging over israel stopping the death toll in the conflict of the palestinians has surged in recent months just as israel's far—right nationalist government led by benjamin netanyahu has been

rocked by mass protests and civil disobedience at home and unprecedented criticism from allies overseas. my guest as a member of parliament in mr netanyahu's likud party, danny danon. is the great survivor netanyahu nowjeopardising the neta nyahu now jeopardising the future netanyahu nowjeopardising the future of israel? danny danon in jerusalem, welcome danny danon injerusalem, welcome to hardtalk. danny danon in jerusalem, welcome to hardtalk. thank you for havin: welcome to hardtalk. thank you for having me. — welcome to hardtalk. thank you for having me, stephen. - welcome to hardtalk. thank you for having me, stephen. it- welcome to hardtalk. thank you for having me, stephen. it is- welcome to hardtalk. thank you for having me, stephen. it is a i for having me, stephen. it is a leasure for having me, stephen. it is a pleasure to — for having me, stephen. it is a pleasure to have _ for having me, stephen. it is a pleasure to have you - for having me, stephen. it is a pleasure to have you on - for having me, stephen. it is a pleasure to have you on the i pleasure to have you on the show, would you agree that right now israel appears to be

in a very perilous position. you have deep vertical turmoil at home and a security crisis at the very same time. the former makes it more difficult to deal with the latter, doesn't it?— to deal with the latter, doesn't it? ~ , doesn't it? well, it is never borin: doesn't it? well, it is never boring here _ doesn't it? well, it is never boring here in _ doesn't it? well, it is never boring here in israel. - doesn't it? well, it is never boring here in israel. we i doesn't it? well, it is neverl boring here in israel. we are doesn't it? well, it is never i boring here in israel. we are a very dynamic democracy and as you mentioned we don't have the best neighbours in the world and we have two face with the security issues and indeed in the last few days we've seen attacks from different directions and we believe it is not a coincidence. we think it is all coming from the same source, from around, that is why we are dealing together with our forces pushing why we are dealing together with ourforces pushing back our enemies. with our forces pushing back our enemies.— with our forces pushing back our enemies. surely the real message _ our enemies. surely the real message of— our enemies. surely the real message of the _ our enemies. surely the real message of the last - our enemies. surely the real message of the last few - our enemies. surely the real l message of the last few weeks as you reap what you sow and the most extreme far—right in government, and israel's history is very much reaping what it is sewing in terms of

the alienation, the anger, the frustration against a list indians, particularly those living in the occupied west bank. —— iran. a, living in the occupied west bank. -- iran.— living in the occupied west bank. -- iran. a big two differ with yom _ bank. -- iran. a big two differ with yom we _ bank. -- iran. a big two differ with you. we are _ bank. -- iran. a big two differ with you. we are a _ bank. -- iran. a big two differ| with you. we are a democracy, we went to elections and the government was democratically elected. unfortunately with the palestinians nothing is new. a left—wing government is not willing to negotiate with us. when you have a right wing more conservative government they are not willing to negotiate with us and we think that the radical forces taking over, both in gaza, we know that hamas took over more than a decade ago so it is unfortunate, when we are finding peace with moderate arab countries within the region, we see that the radical forces among the palestinians are becoming more and more stronger. are becoming more and more stronger-— stronger. it's a bit rich as it, mr danon, _ stronger. it's a bit rich as it, mr danon, to - stronger. it's a bit rich as it, mr danon, to say - stronger. it's a bit rich as it, mr danon, to say that| stronger. it's a bit rich as - it, mr danon, to say that the west bank and the palestinians are not interested in negotiating with you, your

government is not interested in negotiating with them stopping never before has there been a government so full of ministers who only want one thing and thatis who only want one thing and that is the complete annexation of all that occupied territory. that is what you have wanted for years, that is what you have wanted foryears, it that is what you have wanted for years, it is what others want and it is what this government appears to be intent on achieving. 50. government appears to be intent on achieving-— on achieving. so, first of all, that is not — on achieving. so, first of all, that is not the _ on achieving. so, first of all, that is not the policy - on achieving. so, first of all, that is not the policy of- on achieving. so, first of all, that is not the policy of the l that is not the policy of the government. (crosstalk) it’s government. (crosstalk) it's the oli government. (crosstalk) it's the policy of — government. (crosstalk) it's the policy of individuals they have just named including yourself. you started calling for the annexation of occupied territory in the west bank as far back as 2011.— far back as 2011. let's talk first of all _ far back as 2011. let's talk first of all about _ far back as 2011. let's talk first of all about the - first of all about the narrative. i never called at annexation, you cannot annex something that belonged to us. i called at applied sovereignty.- i called at applied sovereignty. i called at applied sovereiun . ., ., ~ ., sovereignty. you talk to international _ sovereignty. you talk to international lawyers i sovereignty. you talk to i international lawyers about that, mr danon._ international lawyers about that, mr danon. well, iwill but i never _ that, mr danon. well, iwill but i never called _ that, mr danon. well, iwill but i never called at - but i never called at annexation and second, we never called for and annexing all the

inaudible . we do believe that we should apply sovereignty over the jewish communities. but let me ask you that. we are now celebrating 75 years of independence and in israel and look what we achieved in 75 years, the palestinians, what they did last 75 years was to reject any proposal. had started with the un partition plan, when we said yes, they said no. since then we have dozens of governments, they never agreed to sit down and negotiate with us like we did with egypt, jordan, uae, bahrain, morocco and other arab countries in the region. we have spoken _ countries in the region. we have spoken before, you and me and i have spoken to many israelis over the years. i'm not going to rehearse 60 or 70 years of history, i'm going to focus on what is happening right now. what we have in israel today is a government which has just passed a law allowing israeli citizens to move back into at least four settlement site that were

previously declared illegal, something the us government has described as provocative and count of. we have an extended pace of palestinian home demolition in eastjerusalem which the un says is happening at nearly double the rate of this same period last year. what palestinians see, here and now, day by day is a government which is intent on taking their land, taking their homes and massively expanding jewish settlement.— massively expanding jewish settlement. well, that is not the case- _ settlement. well, that is not the case- it _ settlement. well, that is not the case. it is _ settlement. well, that is not the case. it is the _ settlement. well, that is not the case. it is the case. - settlement. well, that is not the case. it is the case. it's i the case. it is the case. it's not the _ the case. it is the case. it's not the case _ the case. it is the case. it's not the case and _ the case. it is the case. it's not the case and actually i not the case and actually criticise the government for a chilly freezing the building. you mentioned that with the americans and the talks in sharm el—sheikh and they agreed to free the building in the jewish communities, by the way, think it is a mistake, when we are experiencing a wave of the answer to that should be to

perform that we are here to stay, to make sure that we build and every day we are under attack. build and every day we are underattack. five build and every day we are under attack. five days ago three british citizens were killed, a light. there were killed, a light. there were killed while they were driving in their car in thejordan valley, two daughters were killed on the spot and the mother was killed a few days later. we haven't had any condemnation from president abbas or any leaderfrom condemnation from president abbas or any leader from the palestinian authorities of somebody thinks those terror attacks could push us away from our land, that is a mistake. the answer to that will be to build more, to bring more dues to israel. that would be the answer to terrorism. the fi . ures answer to terrorism. the figures are _ answer to terrorism. the figures are indeed - answer to terrorism. the figures are indeed very l figures are indeed very depressing. referto figures are indeed very depressing. refer to the tragic murder of three british israeli women. a mother and her two daughters. overall israel has lost more citizens, civilians this year to terror attacks. the same indeed as true for the palestinians. they have lost

more civilians to violence either from the israeli military or from israeli jewish settlers this year as well. the spiral of violence is deepening and what we see is that your government is full of ministers who appear to want to provoke more violence, including, for example, ministers not rich who actually liked a treat that suggested one palestinian village should be quote erased from the map.— from the map. first of all they want to ask — from the map. first of all they want to ask you _ from the map. first of all they want to ask you to _ from the map. first of all they want to ask you to check - from the map. first of all they want to ask you to check your| want to ask you to check your facts. we don't attack civilians. i facts. we don't attack civilians.— civilians. i referred to civilian _ civilians. i referred to civilian death, - civilians. i referred to civilian death, mr- civilians. i referred to - civilian death, mr danon. the statistics are undeniable. in many cases those terrorists are hiding behind civilians and using them as human shields, but our intentions are a piece.

you will never see an israeli policeman or soldier attacking civilians. what we do, we protect our people and we try to neutralise the threat to our people and we regret the loss of any palestinian civilians. i'm sorry mr danon. you are ignoring the substance of my question which is about (crosstalk). | will (crosstalk). i will answer your question but first let me complete my answer. they glorify the deaths of israeli civilians, they celebrate it. you can see the pictures on the videos, maybe will show it, we don't do that. we regret the loss of life from every innocent men, whether it is jewish, every innocent men, whether it isjewish, christian or muslim, is jewish, christian or muslim, period. isjewish, christian or muslim, period. but the culture of hate is the problem we are facing and when the israelis hear about anyone who is being hurt, whether it is an israeli palestinian with a civilian, we condemn it, we regret it and thatis condemn it, we regret it and that is what happened for centuries. it is not the same

for the palestinian leadership, they choose to glorify terror attacks, they name squares and schools after terrorists and by the way, they are paying them a monthly salary, more than 1000 us dollars for the family of terrorists who are sitting in the jails in israel are the murder or the committed suicide attempt, then the family will get the payment.— get the payment. you still haven't addressed - get the payment. you still haven't addressed the - get the payment. you still. haven't addressed the point that two senior ministers in the government which you support as look oud member of knesset, i refer to mr smotrich, he liked a tweet which said that village should be erased from the map and they also referred to minister to

give ear, reference to a full throated embrace ofjewish supremacy. these are senior figures in the government you support up yellow so mr smotrich retracted his statement and the government is being led by prime minister netanyahu and the likud party so i invite you to criticise our policy, not a member. (crosstalk)— our policy, not a member. (crosstalk) ., ., ., (crosstalk) you will allow me to complete _ (crosstalk) you will allow me to complete my _ (crosstalk) you will allow me to complete my answer - (crosstalk) you will allow me to complete my answer before l to complete my answer before you ask the next question and our policy is a responsible policy, prime minister netanyahu, has been in office for more than 15 years and he has proved that he is capable of leading the nation in a

responsible manner, that is why he was re—elected three months ago so with all the respect towards the ministers you mention, they are not actually running the cabinet, they are not running the government, you have more than 30 ministers in the government. few of them you mentioned that you have many, many more with different opinions. just you have many, many more with different opinions.— different opinions. just one more point _ different opinions. just one more point on _ different opinions. just one more point on the - different opinions. just one i more point on the government you appear absolutely determined to support, one minister has talked about setting up a new militia group which he would control. ——mr ben—gvir. i wonder whether you think that will help or inflame the situation.— think that will help or inflame the situation. there will be no militia in israel, _ the situation. there will be no militia in israel, we _ the situation. there will be no militia in israel, we are - the situation. there will be no militia in israel, we are a - militia in israel, we are a democracy. there is an idea of forming a national guard to ask volunteers to support the work of the police. i think it is a goodideain of the police. i think it is a good idea in general, we had to put content into that idea and

to regulate it but i'm sure once we built this national guard will work with the police and help us in times of emergency. you have similar forces in other democracies. nobody is building militias in israel, we have the government, the military, the police force, it will continue to be an organised the government. the surveillance _ organised the government. the surveillance which we have both referred to, obviously your perspective is your own, this violence is occurring at a time when there is deep clinical instability inside israel. benjamin netanyahu the prime minister seems rattled right now. when it comes to security, there is a problem. he fired his defence ministerjust a couple of weeks ago and he has now reinstated him. i don't know what kind of message that sends to the israeli public about stability at the top of israel's government when it comes to key security policy. first, let's put the facts right, again. the minister of

defence was not fired, the prime minister announced that he intends to fire him, he didn't do it doubly officially, legally, in order to fire a minister, the payment is do it at any moment. he has to write at any moment. he has to write a letter and announced that he is firing the minister and he has done it many times in the past. he announced his intent but he never sent the letter and i think he made the right, and i think he made the right, a few days ago when he announced that the defence minister would stay in office, i think the minister is capable of leading the military and dealing with the situation today, i think it was the right decision. , , , ., decision. very interesting you sa that decision. very interesting you say that because _ decision. very interesting you say that because yoav - decision. very interesting you | say that because yoav gallant, the defence minister is the very same mr gallant who warned just a few short weeks ago that such was the political backlash, the internal israeli discontent with the government's judicial reform plan that he feared insubordination is so

widespread within the ranks of israel's reserve is, it's armed force reserves that it may harm the ivf�*s ability to continue to carry out its mission is. that's mr mr gallantjust a that's mr mr gallant just a couple that's mr mr gallantjust a couple of weeks ago, do you think he still feels that today? this will, is legitimate to say what you think. by the way, i've had also criticism for the judicial reform. thought it was done not in the right way. didn't criticise the content, but i think it was the way it was performed and delivered were not the right way to do it and i think we should learn the lessons from that. crosstalk. hang on, what lessons should be learnt? should binyamin netanyahu do a u—turn and abandon this reform plan? u-turn and abandon this reform ian? ., , . . , u-turn and abandon this reform ian? ., ,~ ., plan? no, my criticism was about the _ plan? no, my criticism was about the execution - plan? no, my criticism was about the execution of - plan? no, my criticism was about the execution of the | about the execution of the idea, we should do is lower, we should listen to our opponents, we should have a dialogue and we should have a dialogue and we should have a dialogue and we should try to reach a compromise, that was my position. by the way, from a

beginning, told it to my colleagues in the party that you could take a slower and do it in a different way. unfortunately my position was not accepted and only now after major demonstrations we decided to actually relax, slowdown, and then we started a dialogue under president hertzog. going back to the question about mr gallant, we have to make it very clear that we expect dell soldiers, once they wear politics aside, they cannot decide about policy. sometimes you'll have people from the left that are not happy with the policy, sometimes people from the right, when you wear the uniform of the idea we expect you to follow the orders and not to start to decide what you want to do what you don't want to do. you want to do what you don't want to do— want to do. let's face it, you are an elected _ want to do. let's face it, you are an elected politician, - want to do. let's face it, you j are an elected politician, you know how politics works, the polls right now are horrible for you, your party, and your government. it's clearfrom for you, your party, and your government. it's clear from a

bunch of poles that roughly two—thirds of the israeli public do not support these judicial reforms, whichjust public do not support these judicial reforms, which just to remind people, would massively increase the power of the majority in the knesset two control israel's highest court. that is what it would do. the public doesn't like it, according to the latest media polling your party support stands at a low which would give it only 20 seats in the knesset and only 25% of the israeli public believe that netanyahu should continue in government. he is going to have to recognise reality, isn't he was a low first, regarding the poles, the main question was in front of the israelis only three months ago where when they went to vote a few months ago, we had elections. plenty has changed in the last three months. �* . �* , has changed in the last three months. . ., �* , ., has changed in the last three months. . ., �*, ., , months. and that's what counts. the second _ months. and that's what counts. the second point, _ months. and that's what counts. the second point, the _ months. and that's what counts. the second point, the way - months. and that's what counts. the second point, the way you i the second point, the way you describe the reform is not accurate at all. what we were

trying to do is balance the system. you know, when you have a democracy you have checks and balances and what we believe and felt and many of our supporters believe it as well the judicial system took too much powerfrom the judicial system took too much power from the the judicial system took too much powerfrom the knesset, and our parliament, and the executive branch of government and we were trying to balance it, maybe we did it too fast, maybe we did in a that should not be done, but the principle is to balance it and, by the way, because we have duminy elections, like the same problems you have in the uk with your system and in the us, many democracies are in trouble today, we feel the judicial system took too much power from us and what we're doing we are balancing it, we are not reforming the system completely. we will still be a strong democracy, can assure you of that macroeconomic you keep saying we did wrong, we should have done it slower, but in a couple of weeks when the

knesset returns netanyahu faces a strong choice, he either pushes through the reform is pretty much unchanged or he has to retreat with all the political humiliation that will go with that, which is he going to do? i think it will be the middle ground. they really believe in it. and by the way, have conversations with many of my colleagues from the opposition and you know i was at the end un for five years as the israeli ambassador i don't how to negotiate in many crises. and i think we can negotiate a compromise to find the middle ground that will basically give monotonously ruling party, but will give the parliament more power with the system of the judicial system. today we are in power, but tomorrow somebody else will be in power. we want to balance the system. is there we can negotiate a compromise. you are an experienced — negotiate a compromise. you are an experienced diplomat. - negotiate a compromise. you are an experienced diplomat. you i an experienced diplomat. you just refer to the fact that you spend years in new york as the israel ambassador to the united nations. our concern to you that what has happened with this botched reform that

netanyahu has now put on pause it has caused deep disquiet in washington, dc and other capitals, friendly allies of israel. joe biden said the other day "like many strong supporters of israel eye and very concerned, they cannot continue down this road. does the fact the us wants netanyahu back off make any difference? well, i think our allies understand the details, it is not only the headlines in the pictures of the demonstrations, you actually read the content you actually read the content you realise that's part of democracy, in 1992 the supreme court started to take power from the parliament and now we're bringing the power back and we're going to find their way to balance it. so the us is a strong democracy, the uk is a strong democracy, but all of the democracies in the world they have these dialogues, they have challenges, they have legislation. look what happened in the us a few years ago...

crosstalk. the justice of the supreme court... ,, ,, . the justice of the supreme court- - -_ the justice of the supreme court... ,,,, ~ . ., ., court... crosstalk we do have the dialogue _ court... crosstalk we do have the dialogue with _ court. .. crosstalk we do have the dialogue with our— court... crosstalk we do have the dialogue with our allies... i the dialogue with our allies... crosstalk you have a dialogue but this is not business as usual. the israeli embassy in washington was just all integral to the state department because they are unhappy about settlement policy and your own former prime ministerjust said this he said "for decades israel was the us's closest ally but the most extreme government in our country's history has ruined that in three months." well, ou that in three months." well, you know. — that in three months." well, you know. in _ that in three months." well, you know, in opposition, - that in three months." well, i you know, in opposition, what is doing now is going outside of israel to criticise us. i don't think that is the way to handle your position as leader of the opposition. at the end of the opposition. at the end of the opposition. at the end of the day, the bond with the us is a strong bond dummy will continue to be a strong bond and i'm not worried about that. and, by the way, it is legitimate to have

disagreements for every time, and that is what we're doing with our allies, but i think at the end of the day when the people will see the result, what will be the outcome of the judicial reform they will understand that it is not a crisis, it is not the end of democracy, it'sjust crisis, it is not the end of democracy, it's just another part of the checks and balances of our society and democracy. well, someone so you want to remove those checks and balances. just a final thought on diplomacy, your special area, you claim tojust a on diplomacy, your special area, you claim to just a few short months ago that it peace deal, a normalisation of relations with saudi arabia was in the offing. you are completely wrong, won't you? what we have seen as israel has lunged into crisis with the sle government, what we have swri government, what we have seen is the saudi arabia government has made a decision to warm up its ties with iran thanks to the diplomacy of china. you got that very wrong. no, i think, china. you got that very wrong. no, ithink, stephen, you have to when eyes spoke about surprises in the middle east

before we signed that agreement, the abraham accords, people were sceptical. and i'm still optimistic about the chances to move forward in saudi arabia. i think it is very important not only for us, and i think we to speak a little bit about what is happening with iran, the nuclear race to a bomb, it is a threat to the saudis, and that's what we're doing also with our allies... crosstalk mr danon, with our allies... crosstalk mr danon. we _ with our allies... crosstalk mr danon, we almost _ with our allies... crosstalk mr danon, we almost out _ with our allies... crosstalk mr danon, we almost out of - with our allies... crosstalk mr danon, we almost out of time. i danon, we almost out of time. the point i'm trying to make is that while you believed the tide was running in your direction, that saudi arabia was going tojoin direction, that saudi arabia was going to join the other gulf states in normalisation, you got it wrong. the chinese diplomacy has brokered a deal between saudi arabia and iran, your archenemy, and from a diplomatic point of view while there is turmoil at home in israel the diplomatic field is also turn against your country. so, again, be patient, stephen, we will come back to you, your studio in london, do it from jerusalem after we have only be

still with saudi arabia. they believe it will happen. they cannot tell you exactly when buttai believe it will happen. and i think the us, they should think about why the saudis actually signed this agreement with iran, right, why the chinese became so involved in the region, but in terms of the interests of israel and the saudis, is still believe that it is a win—win and that's why we will see something good happening in the region with the saudis. ml happening in the region with the saudis.— the saudis. all right, danny danon, the saudis. all right, danny danon. we _ the saudis. all right, danny danon, we have _ the saudis. all right, danny danon, we have run - the saudis. all right, danny danon, we have run out- the saudis. all right, danny danon, we have run out of. the saudis. all right, danny - danon, we have run out of time, but thank you very much for joining me on hardtalk. thank ou. joining me on hardtalk. thank you thank _ joining me on hardtalk. thank you. thank you. _

hello there. storm noa has been bringing problems to transport, with road, rail, ferries and airports affected. meanwhile, out to sea, some wild weather in cornwall, with these large, mountainous waves pummelling the coastline. some of the waves were thought to be about eight metres high. that's the same height as two double decker buses stacked on top of each other. storm noa, then, has certainly been making its impact felt. it's this swirl of cloud you can see here on the satellite picture. and the top wind speed was recorded, as it often is in such storms, at the needles on the isle of wight , a very exposed site — at 96 miles an hour. elsewhere, well into the 70s. even across inland parts of southern england, we had gusts into the 60s of miles an hour and that was strong enough to blow over a few trees. now, over the next few hours, those very strong winds are starting to calm down. it's still quite windy, though, for wales and south—west england. temperatures coming down to between three and six celsius, very similar to what we've seen over recent nights. now, heading into thursday, it should be a fine start to the day for many for england and wales. there'll be showers across northern england, showers for scotland and northern ireland. and i think through the day, there is a chance that some of these showers, particularly for southern and eastern

scotland, into eastern areas of england, well, they could merge together to give some longer spells of rain. and some of the rain heavy with some hail and thunder mixed in and temperatures still below par. but when the sunshine comes out, out of the breeze, probably not feeling too bad. probably not feeling too good on friday across southern parts of england and wales, with another area of low pressure moving in, bringing outbreaks of rain widely. some of that's going to be quite heavy as well, whereas the further north you are, you will see showers and thunderstorms, some of them, again, merging together to give some longer spells of rain, so staying very unsettled and pretty cool again for april. highs only reaching around 12 or 13 degrees at best. however, as we get into the weekend, things start to cheer up. the south—westerly winds start to blow away some of that cooler air and the high pressure starts to flex its muscles. now, on saturday, there'll still be a few showers around, maybe a few morning mist and fog patches to clear, but there'll be some bright or sunny spells and, overall, it's a better kind of day weather—wise. temperatures climbing. we're looking at highs of 15 in glasgow, 15 in norwich and for london as well. and that's just the start of things, because through sunday and into next week, it gets even warmer. indeed, next week, for the first time this year, we should see highs hit 20.

live from london, this is bbc news. i'm sally bundock. president biden is to address the irish parliament in dublin as he continues his visit of the republic of ireland. north korea launch a missile into the sea of japan, sparking alarm in northern hokkaido. the european space agency will launch its spacecraft towards jupiter on thursday in one of its most ambitious missions to date. hello and welcome. president biden will address the irish parliament in dublin