down two centimetres hail that came down in tunbridge and temperatures plummeted to one celsius in a matter of minutes. overnight tonight, a few showers left over across parts of scotland in particular, and later in the night we will see rain edge into parts of southern wales and south—west england. generally with clear skies around it is a colder night than we have had in the last few, temperatures down to 1—3 c, so even a touch of ground frost possible. tomorrow the low pressure will dive southwards across parts of england and wales, out into france. scotland and northern ireland having a day of sunshine and showers, shower showers heavy with hail and thunder and if you catch a downpour here you will know about it. for england and wales, we get this convergence, where the winds come together and along this line from yorkshire and lincolnshire down towards wales in the west country, we will get some big downpours, and perhaps even one or two funnel clouds. wherever you are, it will

feel cool tomorrow, temperatures below average for the time of year, but the sunshine should mitigate it a bit, sunshine in april has a little strength. then milder air pushing in from the south, so the weather will improve, lots of sunshine on saturday, just a few showers for eastern areas, turning a bit cloudierfor showers for eastern areas, turning a bit cloudier for northern ireland later in the day, but look at the temperatures. highs up to 15 cell c and it should get even warmer to that into next week, with dry and sunny weather on the

this is carly�*s allotment, she uses it to grow food for people struggling to make ends meet.

with new figures out today showing the escalating diabetes crisis, and recent analysis of life expectancy over seven decades showing the uk doing worse than all g7 countries except the usa, we'll ask — are we sleep—walking into a growing health crisis and what can be done about it? also tonight. elon musk announces this evening that blue tick users on twitter will be able to make money through subscribers. we'll talk live to the two men who founded newsletter platform substack, which allows users to make money through subscribers. and alongside the physical war in ukraine, there's a cyber war going on, led by devoted volunteer hackers, whose main aim in life is to disrupt websites,

banks and infrastructure in ukraine and russia. good evening. why is the health divide between rich and poor across the uk as wide as it is? new figures today from diabetes uk show an all—time high in cases — a crisis, the organisation says, that is "rapidly escalating" and that's a condition more prevalent in deprived areas. around two thirds of adults are above a healthy weight and, of these, half are obese. in england, one in three children leaving primary school is overweight. being overweight is a risk factor for developing type 2 diabetes. it's also a fact that people in poorer places in the uk live shorter, sicker lives than those in richer ones. and recent analysis of global rankings of life expectancy over seven decades shows the uk

has done worse than all g7 countries except the usa. many in healthcare believe all of this should amount to a scandal. why isn't it? we'll try and get an answer to that in a moment. first, here's kate with the data. today, when diabetes uk announced their estimate that more than five million people now have the condition, the charity called two things alarming. first, that diabetes, which can involve serious complications, is becoming more common in those under a0. and secondly, that diabetes is more prevalent in deprived areas. now, 90% of diabetes today is type 2 and we've known about that type�*s connection to deprivation for decades. this data is from women in south tees in the 1990s. you can see a clear gap in many age groups between the prevalence of type 2 diabetes in the most and least deprived areas. the exact causes of type 2 diabetes is unknown, but it has several risk factors, including family history, ethnicity and the largest changeable risk, obesity.

several things, then, could be playing a role in this relationship between deprivation and diabetes. people from ethnic minority groups are more likely to live in the most deprived areas of the uk, and in england, obesity rates have been growing at twice the rate in the most deprived areas compared to the least deprived. these inequalities between the richest and poorest areas of the uk, though, go well beyond diabetes. look at life expectancy, for example. in recent years, the trend that people will live longer has been leveling off. some of this is to be expected. for instance, medical progress in treating heart disease since the 19805 led to a huge fall in deaths, but you can't expect that trend to continue forever. life expectancy in other parts of the world, though, has performed better than the uk. when queen elizabeth came to the throne in 1952, the uk's life expectancy was 7th globally. by 2021, it was ranked 29th. france, germany, italy and japan all overtook the uk. in fact, in the g7, the only country to perform worse was the usa. in a recent paper, oxford academics attributed part of this to growing inequalities.

a man living in the most deprived parts of northern manchester, for example, could today expect to live almost a decade less than someone living in the richest parts of nearby rural cheshire. they would likely also spend a greater proportion of their lives in poor health. and in recent years, life expectancy has actually been falling in more deprived areas. this compares the typical life expectancy for women in 2015 and 2021. you can see the gap — in this case, represnting a fall — is larger in areas of higher deprivation. none of this has a simple fix because there are so many issues at play. for obesity, for example, there's far more than the cost of a healthy diet. poorer areas have five times the number of fast—food restaurants compared to affluent ones. still, the government has pledged to reduce inequalities in healthy life expectancy by 2030. and there have been many policies to try and help tackle both diabetes and obesity. almost 700 obesity policies in the last 30 years, in fact.

some of which, like the sugar tax, did make big population level interventions. evidence shows that interventions that are designed at the population level. so making it easierfor sort of everyone to do something, whether that's shaping the environment around people so it'sjust easier to be healthy, like reducing the bombardment of proliferation of, for example, junk food takeaways in the high street, orjust making it easier by reducing or increasing the promotions on healthier options. so you've got these sorts of shaping the environment around us makes it easier for everyone to enjoy a healthy life, but are a much smaller proportion of the types of policies that government proposes. they tend to propose policies that require a high level of individual agency. so things like information campaigns, which requires someone to engage with that campaign, to have the sort of opportunity, motivation and chances to make that sort of change over a long period of time, which we know is less likely to be effective. changes tend to be seen as sort of almost punishing people en masse, with that negative impression of population level intervention, the conservative government recently delayed a number of measures

including a ban on buy one get one free deals for foods high in fat, salt and sugar. labour supported that delay, suggesting a cost—of—living crisis was not the right time to introduce such measures. but when surveys asked the public whether they supported a delay in this ban, the result was pretty evenly split, even when you break it down by class. the ban is currently due in october. health inequalities in the uk, then, are entrenched and growing. they can't be fixed overnight, but which measures politicians are willing to take will determine how large the gap becomes. let's talk to sir michael marmot, who's director of the ucl institute of health equity. he led a government review on reducing health inequalities in 2010. and he revisited it in 2020. professor bobby duffy is director of the policy institute at king's college london. and dr chi chi ekhator, a south london gp who provides community services to try and tackle health inequalities. some pretty shocking facts and figures from kate, do any of them surprise you?— figures from kate, do any of them surprise you? absolutely, i am not at all surprised _ surprise you? absolutely, i am not at all surprised because _ surprise you? absolutely, i am not at all surprised because we - surprise you? absolutely, i am not at all surprised because we have i at all surprised because we have known about these issues for many years, many decades, and it is increasing by the day, we know people from more deprived parts of the uk, more deprived parts of

london, face inequalities at an all—time high. and we know that trust is a huge issue, as well as all the other barriers people face when they try to access health. zero—hours contracts, poor living conditions, people are actually worried about their day—to—day existence. so therefore, my project, we get into the heart diabetes uk of communities we take help to them and we engage communities and we begin to help them to access help and also provide key measures like fruit and vegetable prescriptions, so that they can have that chance to live a healthy life. they can have that chance to live a healthy life-— healthy life. when you say trust is an issue, what _ healthy life. when you say trust is an issue, what do _ healthy life. when you say trust is an issue, what do you _ healthy life. when you say trust is an issue, what do you mean - healthy life. when you say trust is an issue, what do you mean in - an issue, what do you mean in practicalterms? i an issue, what do you mean in practical terms?— practical terms? i think in practical terms, - practicalterms? ithink in practical terms, we - practicalterms? ithink in practical terms, we havel practical terms? i think in - practical terms, we have seen the issues around covid. and we have seen the communities who have been massively affected and disaffected. the communities who haven't come forward for various reasons, having reflected on the historical issues that many people have cited. we come

as a gp, i am seeing that patients who perhaps may have brought their children for their child immunisations are thinking twice —— we, as a gp. what is in this vaccination? so there is a key issue around trust, where people feel that the things that are important to them or the history behind them has been left behind. so they —— so there is great work we need to do as clinicians, as policymakers, to build back the trust at grassroots levels and begin to show people that we are there for them, that the policies we put in place are there for them, policies we put in place are there forthem, notjust policies we put in place are there for them, notjust by the words we speak, but the actions and resources we put behind that.— we put behind that. professor marmot, would _ we put behind that. professor marmot, would you _ we put behind that. professor marmot, would you would - we put behind that. professor i marmot, would you would agree we put behind that. professor - marmot, would you would agree with what dr ekhator is saying? bier? marmot, would you would agree with what dr ekhator is saying? very much so, if we what dr ekhator is saying? very much so. if we ask. — what dr ekhator is saying? very much so. if we ask. why _ what dr ekhator is saying? very much so, if we ask, why did _ what dr ekhator is saying? very much so, if we ask, why did health - what dr ekhator is saying? very much so, if we ask, why did health stop - so, if we ask, why did health stop improving, — so, if we ask, why did health stop improving, why did health inequalities increase? child poverty

went up. _ inequalities increase? child poverty went up, spending per person and education — went up, spending per person and education went down. the rise in the lil education went down. the rise in the gig economy. and the failure of salaries — gig economy. and the failure of salaries to— gig economy. and the failure of salaries to increase, and with the cost—of—living crisis, salaries going — cost—of—living crisis, salaries going down. more people in poverty. and then _ going down. more people in poverty. and then the environment, housing problems — and then the environment, housing problems. inability to heat your home — problems. inability to heat your home as — problems. inability to heat your home. as well as lack of affordability.— home. as well as lack of affordability. home. as well as lack of affordabili .�* ., affordability. but as kate said in her report. _ affordability. but as kate said in her report, there _ affordability. but as kate said in her report, there have - affordability. but as kate said in her report, there have been - affordability. but as kate said in i her report, there have been almost 700 obesity policies over the last 30 years, so under different governments, and it is still rising, which means it is a really complex issue which you know, of course. why issue which you know, of course. why is it proving so challenging? there is it proving so challenging? there is a lot of discussion _ is it proving so challenging? there is a lot of discussion about, - is it proving so challenging? there is a lot of discussion about, is - is it proving so challenging? there is a lot of discussion about, is it i is a lot of discussion about, is it a matter— is a lot of discussion about, is it a matter of— is a lot of discussion about, is it a matter of individual responsibility? let's look at how much _ responsibility? let's look at how much it— responsibility? let's look at how much it cost to have a healthy diet. if much it cost to have a healthy diet. it you _ much it cost to have a healthy diet. it you are _ much it cost to have a healthy diet. it you are in— much it cost to have a healthy diet. if you are in the bottom 10% of household income, to follow the nhs

healthy— household income, to follow the nhs healthy eating guidance, you would have to _ healthy eating guidance, you would have to spend 74% of your income on food _ have to spend 74% of your income on food. impossible. so to feed your children— food. impossible. so to feed your childrenjunk food is food. impossible. so to feed your children junk food is cheaper. food. impossible. so to feed your childrenjunk food is cheaper. you -et childrenjunk food is cheaper. you get more — childrenjunk food is cheaper. you get more calories per unit of expenditure from bad food than you do from _ expenditure from bad food than you do from good food. and so we see the rise in— do from good food. and so we see the rise in childhood obesity, which is really— rise in childhood obesity, which is really horrendous. childhood obesity in the _ really horrendous. childhood obesity in the more — really horrendous. childhood obesity in the more deprived areas is twice as high— in the more deprived areas is twice as high as — in the more deprived areas is twice as high as in — in the more deprived areas is twice as high as in the least deprived. and in— as high as in the least deprived. and in the — as high as in the least deprived. and in the least deprived areas, it is no _ and in the least deprived areas, it is no longer— and in the least deprived areas, it is no longer going up, good news. in the most _ is no longer going up, good news. in the most deprived areas, it is still rising _ the most deprived areas, it is still rising and — the most deprived areas, it is still rising and rising really rapidly. so rising and rising really rapidly. sc we rising and rising really rapidly. s: we are rising and rising really rapidly. sr we are setting up problems for generations. it we are setting up problems for generations-— we are setting up problems for renerations. ., . ., generations. it tracks through the life course- _ generations. it tracks through the life course. and _ generations. it tracks through the life course. and the _ generations. it tracks through the life course. and the other - generations. it tracks through the life course. and the other part - generations. it tracks through the life course. and the other part of| life course. and the other part of is exercise — life course. and the other part of is exercise. if you are wealthy, you canjoin_ is exercise. if you are wealthy, you canjoin a _ is exercise. if you are wealthy, you canjoin a gym. we know that is exercise. if you are wealthy, you can join a gym. we know that access to green— can join a gym. we know that access to green space, tracks, with

deprivation, the more deprived the area, _ deprivation, the more deprived the area, the _ deprivation, the more deprived the area, the less access to green space — area, the less access to green space so _ area, the less access to green space. so you don't have green space, — space. so you don't have green space. you _ space. so you don't have green space, you can't afford tojoin space. so you don't have green space, you can't afford to join a gym _ space, you can't afford to 'oin a a m, ., space, you can't afford to 'oin a a m. ., " ., space, you can't afford to 'oin a . m. ., ~ ., ., space, you can't afford to 'oin a gym. you know what people say, you don't have to — gym. you know what people say, you don't have to join _ gym. you know what people say, you don't have to join a _ gym. you know what people say, you don't have to join a gym _ gym. you know what people say, you don't have to join a gym to _ gym. you know what people say, you don't have to join a gym to do - don't have to join a gym to do exercise, you don't have to have a park nearby to do exercise. you don't have _ park nearby to do exercise. you don't have too, _ park nearby to do exercise. you don't have too, but _ park nearby to do exercise. you don't have too, but if you are on shift _ don't have too, but if you are on shift work. — don't have too, but if you are on shift work. i_ don't have too, but if you are on shift work, i was talking to a taxi driver— shift work, i was talking to a taxi driver on — shift work, i was talking to a taxi driver on the way here and he says he drives— driver on the way here and he says he drives all— driver on the way here and he says he drives all day and he is exhausted at night. if he goes out to exercise — exhausted at night. if he goes out to exercise in the morning, then he falls asleep — to exercise in the morning, then he falls asleep when he is driving. and he has _ falls asleep when he is driving. and he has got — falls asleep when he is driving. and he has got a stressful life. if you are a _ he has got a stressful life. if you are a single mother with two children. _ are a single mother with two children, are you going to say, look after— children, are you going to say, look after yourselves, children, are you going to say, look afteryourselves, i children, are you going to say, look after yourselves, i am going jogging round _ after yourselves, i am going jogging round the _ after yourselves, i am going jogging round the bloc? no. after yourselves, i am going “ogging round the bloat after yourselves, i am going “ogging round the bloc? no. professor duffy, can ou round the bloc? no. professor duffy, can you give — round the bloc? no. professor duffy, can you give an _ round the bloc? no. professor duffy, can you give an insight _ round the bloc? no. professor duffy, can you give an insight into _ round the bloc? no. professor duffy, can you give an insight into what - can you give an insight into what the public attitude is toward spending on health intervention measures?— spending on health intervention measures? , ., a ., �*, ., ~ measures? yes, what michael's worked as so brilliantly — measures? yes, what michael's worked as so brilliantly is _ measures? yes, what michael's worked as so brilliantly is outline _ measures? yes, what michael's worked as so brilliantly is outline how - as so brilliantly is outline how interconnected _ as so brilliantly is outline how interconnected these - as so brilliantly is outline how interconnected these issues i as so brilliantly is outline how i interconnected these issues are as so brilliantly is outline how - interconnected these issues are of inequality— interconnected these issues are of inequality generally— interconnected these issues are of inequality generally to _ interconnected these issues are of inequality generally to inequality i

inequality generally to inequality inequality generally to inequality in health— inequality generally to inequality in health and _ inequality generally to inequality in health and obesity— inequality generally to inequalityl in health and obesity specifically, you can't— in health and obesity specifically, you can't deal— in health and obesity specifically, you can't deal with _ in health and obesity specifically, you can't deal with one _ in health and obesity specifically, you can't deal with one without i you can't deal with one without dealing — you can't deal with one without dealing with _ you can't deal with one without dealing with the _ you can't deal with one without dealing with the other. - you can't deal with one without dealing with the other. that. you can't deal with one without - dealing with the other. that makes public— dealing with the other. that makes public understanding _ dealing with the other. that makes public understanding and _ dealing with the other. that makes public understanding and public - public understanding and public consent— public understanding and public consent for— public understanding and public consent for those _ public understanding and public consent for those types - public understanding and public consent for those types of- public understanding and publici consent for those types of major intervention— consent for those types of major intervention is— consent for those types of major intervention is really— consent for those types of major intervention is really important, | intervention is really important, but we — intervention is really important, but we have _ intervention is really important, but we have a _ intervention is really important, but we have a couple _ intervention is really important, but we have a couple of- intervention is really important, i but we have a couple of problems with public— but we have a couple of problems with public perceptions _ but we have a couple of problems with public perceptions of- but we have a couple of problems with public perceptions of this. i but we have a couple of problems. with public perceptions of this. the first is, _ with public perceptions of this. the first is, the — with public perceptions of this. the first is, the first _ with public perceptions of this. the first is, the first group _ with public perceptions of this. the first is, the first group of— first is, the first group of problems— first is, the first group of problems is— first is, the first group of problems is we - first is, the first group of problems is we have - first is, the first group of problems is we have a i first is, the first group of| problems is we have a lot first is, the first group of. problems is we have a lot of misconceptions _ problems is we have a lot of misconceptions about- problems is we have a lot of misconceptions about the i problems is we have a lot of. misconceptions about the scale problems is we have a lot of- misconceptions about the scale of the problem. _ misconceptions about the scale of the problem. we _ misconceptions about the scale of the problem, we still— misconceptions about the scale of. the problem, we still underestimate the problem, we still underestimate the scale _ the problem, we still underestimate the scale of— the problem, we still underestimate the scale of obesity _ the problem, we still underestimate the scale of obesity and _ the problem, we still underestimate the scale of obesity and when - the problem, we still underestimate the scale of obesity and when you i the scale of obesity and when you asked _ the scale of obesity and when you asked people _ the scale of obesity and when you asked people how— the scale of obesity and when you asked people how big _ the scale of obesity and when you asked people how big an- the scale of obesity and when you asked people how big an issue . the scale of obesity and when you asked people how big an issue it. the scale of obesity and when youl asked people how big an issue it is and how— asked people how big an issue it is and how common _ asked people how big an issue it is and how common it _ asked people how big an issue it is and how common it is, _ asked people how big an issue it is and how common it is, and - asked people how big an issue it is and how common it is, and we - and how common it is, and we underestimate _ and how common it is, and we underestimate the _ and how common it is, and we underestimate the equalities i and how common it is, and we - underestimate the equalities michael estinrates_ underestimate the equalities michael estimates -- — underestimate the equalities michael estimates —— michael— underestimate the equalities michael estimates —— michael underlines- underestimate the equalities michael estimates —— michael underlines sol estimates —— michael underlines so well _ estimates —— michael underlines so well people — estimates —— michael underlines so well. people haven't _ estimates —— michael underlines so well. people haven't got _ estimates —— michael underlines so well. people haven't got their- estimates —— michael underlines sol well. people haven't got their heads round _ well. people haven't got their heads round the _ well. people haven't got their heads round the scale _ well. people haven't got their heads round the scale of _ well. people haven't got their heads round the scale of these _ round the scale of these inequalities— round the scale of these inequalities and - round the scale of these inequalities and how - round the scale of these inequalities and how it l round the scale of these| inequalities and how it is round the scale of these - inequalities and how it is linked to more _ inequalities and how it is linked to more structural— inequalities and how it is linked to more structural factors. _ inequalities and how it is linked to more structural factors. we - inequalities and how it is linked to more structural factors. we do. inequalities and how it is linked to i more structural factors. we do tend to have _ more structural factors. we do tend to have a _ more structural factors. we do tend to have a more _ more structural factors. we do tend to have a more individualistic- to have a more individualistic mindset— to have a more individualistic mindset on— to have a more individualistic mindset on this _ to have a more individualistic mindset on this when - to have a more individualistic mindset on this when we - to have a more individualistic mindset on this when we are| to have a more individualistic- mindset on this when we are thinking about— mindset on this when we are thinking about inequalities _ mindset on this when we are thinking about inequalities in _ mindset on this when we are thinking about inequalities in health. - mindset on this when we are thinking about inequalities in health. mangr- about inequalities in health. many eo - le about inequalities in health. many people think. _ about inequalities in health. many people think. it — about inequalities in health. many people think, it is _ about inequalities in health. many people think, it is choice - about inequalities in health. many people think, it is choice if- about inequalities in health. people think, it is choice if you eatjunk food, it is a choice? behaviour and lifestyle —type choice. — behaviour and lifestyle —type choice. or _ behaviour and lifestyle —type choice, or they _ behaviour and lifestyle —type choice, or they go _ behaviour and lifestyle —type choice, or they go to - behaviour and lifestyle —type choice, or they go to health. choice, or they go to health services _ choice, or they go to health services and _ choice, or they go to health services and they— choice, or they go to health services and they say- choice, or they go to health services and they say it's i choice, or they go to health services and they say it's toj choice, or they go to health i services and they say it's to do with— services and they say it's to do with the — services and they say it's to do with the quality— services and they say it's to do with the quality of— services and they say it's to do with the quality of health - services and they say it's to do i with the quality of health services you have — with the quality of health services you have got _ with the quality of health services you have got locally, _ with the quality of health services you have got locally, not - with the quality of health services you have got locally, not about i you have got locally, not about these — you have got locally, not about these broader— you have got locally, not about these broader determinants i you have got locally, not about these broader determinants of| these broader determinants of health. — these broader determinants of health. and _ these broader determinants of health, and that _ these broader determinants of health, and that is _ these broader determinants of health, and that is an- these broader determinants of health, and that is an issue i these broader determinants of- health, and that is an issue because we need _ health, and that is an issue because we need public— health, and that is an issue because we need public consent _ health, and that is an issue because we need public consent to _ health, and that is an issue because we need public consent to see - health, and that is an issue because we need public consent to see thatl we need public consent to see that

we need public consent to see that we need _ we need public consent to see that we need those _ we need public consent to see that we need those types _ we need public consent to see that we need those types of _ we need those types of interventions. - we need those types of interventions. there i we need those types of interventions. there is| we need those types of - interventions. there is some we need those types of _ interventions. there is some good news _ interventions. there is some good news because _ interventions. there is some good news because we _ interventions. there is some good news because we are _ interventions. there is some good news because we are seeing - interventions. there is some good| news because we are seeing these lon- news because we are seeing these long waves— news because we are seeing these long waves of— news because we are seeing these long waves of shifts _ news because we are seeing these long waves of shifts in _ news because we are seeing these long waves of shifts in opinion - long waves of shifts in opinion where — long waves of shifts in opinion where in — long waves of shifts in opinion where in the _ long waves of shifts in opinion where in the 1980s, _ long waves of shifts in opinion where in the 1980s, people i long waves of shifts in opinion i where in the 1980s, people were long waves of shifts in opinion - where in the 1980s, people were not willing _ where in the 1980s, people were not willing to _ where in the 1980s, people were not willing to spend _ where in the 1980s, people were not willing to spend more _ where in the 1980s, people were not willing to spend more on— where in the 1980s, people were not willing to spend more on things - where in the 1980s, people were not willing to spend more on things to i willing to spend more on things to do with— willing to spend more on things to do with health — willing to spend more on things to do with health and _ willing to spend more on things to do with health and education, - willing to spend more on things to| do with health and education, then it grows— do with health and education, then it grows up— do with health and education, then it grows up to _ do with health and education, then it grows up to the _ do with health and education, then it grows up to the mid—19 - do with health and education, then it grows up to the mid—19 90s- do with health and education, then i it grows up to the mid—19 90s where we reach _ it grows up to the mid—19 90s where we reach the — it grows up to the mid—19 90s where we reach the peak _ it grows up to the mid—19 90s where we reach the peak of _ it grows up to the mid—19 90s where we reach the peak of two _ it grows up to the mid—19 90s where we reach the peak of two thirds - it grows up to the mid—19 90s where we reach the peak of two thirds of. we reach the peak of two thirds of people _ we reach the peak of two thirds of people saying. _ we reach the peak of two thirds of people saying, actually, _ we reach the peak of two thirds of people saying, actually, we - we reach the peak of two thirds of people saying, actually, we do - we reach the peak of two thirds of i people saying, actually, we do need to spend _ people saying, actually, we do need to spend more _ people saying, actually, we do need to spend more. then _ people saying, actually, we do need to spend more. then it— people saying, actually, we do need to spend more. then it declined - to spend more. then it declined again— to spend more. then it declined again down— to spend more. then it declined again down to _ to spend more. then it declined again down to the _ to spend more. then it declined again down to the mid—2010 - to spend more. then it declinedj again down to the mid—2010 era to spend more. then it declined - again down to the mid—2010 era when only a _ again down to the mid—2010 era when only a third _ again down to the mid—2010 era when only a third of— again down to the mid—2010 era when only a third of people _ again down to the mid—2010 era when only a third of people said _ again down to the mid—2010 era when only a third of people said we - only a third of people said we should — only a third of people said we should he _ only a third of people said we should be spending _ only a third of people said we should be spending more - only a third of people said we i should be spending more than only a third of people said we - should be spending more than we currently— should be spending more than we currently are _ should be spending more than we currently are-— currently are. after the financial crash, currently are. after the financial crash. maybe — currently are. after the financial crash, maybe it _ currently are. after the financial crash, maybe it is _ currently are. after the financial crash, maybe it is related - currently are. after the financial crash, maybe it is related to - currently are. after the financial i crash, maybe it is related to that. all of those type of measures were going _ all of those type of measures were going down — all of those type of measures were going down but _ all of those type of measures were going down. but since _ all of those type of measures were going down. but since the - all of those type of measures were going down. but since the impact i all of those type of measures were l going down. but since the impact of austerity— going down. but since the impact of austerity is — going down. but since the impact of austerity is being _ going down. but since the impact of austerity is being fully— going down. but since the impact of austerity is being fully felt - going down. but since the impact of austerity is being fully felt by- austerity is being fully felt by people — austerity is being fully felt by people since _ austerity is being fully felt by people since mid—2010 - austerity is being fully felt by people since mid—2010 it - austerity is being fully felt by people since mid—2010 it has austerity is being fully felt by- people since mid—2010 it has gone up a-ain people since mid—2010 it has gone up again and _ people since mid—2010 it has gone up again and we — people since mid—2010 it has gone up again and we have _ people since mid—2010 it has gone up again and we have a _ people since mid—2010 it has gone up again and we have a majority - people since mid—2010 it has gone up again and we have a majority people i again and we have a majority people saying _ again and we have a majority people saying can _ again and we have a majority people saying can actually _ again and we have a majority people saying can actually should _ again and we have a majority people saying can actually should be - saying can actually should be spending _ saying can actually should be spending more _ saying can actually should be spending more on _ saying can actually should be spending more on health. i saying can actually should be i spending more on health. that saying can actually should be spending more on health. that is interesting. _ spending more on health. that is interesting, so _ spending more on health. that is interesting, so the _ spending more on health. that is interesting, so the pendulum - spending more on health. that is i interesting, so the pendulum swung back again. we interesting, so the pendulum swung back aaain. ~ . interesting, so the pendulum swung back aain. ~ ., ., interesting, so the pendulum swung back aain. . ., ., ., , ., back again. we have long waves of the pendulum _ back again. we have long waves of the pendulum swinging _ back again. we have long waves of the pendulum swinging and - back again. we have long waves of the pendulum swinging and we - back again. we have long waves of the pendulum swinging and we are back again. we have long waves of i the pendulum swinging and we are in a much _ the pendulum swinging and we are in a much more — the pendulum swinging and we are in a much more fruitful— the pendulum swinging and we are in a much more fruitful environment- the pendulum swinging and we are in a much more fruitful environment for those _ a much more fruitful environment for those type _ a much more fruitful environment for those type of— a much more fruitful environment for those type of discussions _ a much more fruitful environment for those type of discussions now. - a much more fruitful environment for those type of discussions now. dr- those type of discussions now. ekhator, kate mentioned in her report a man in north manchesterfor

example will live ten years less then a man in a more affluent part of cheshire. ten years less? in britain, in 2023. i of cheshire. ten years less? in britain, in 2023.— of cheshire. ten years less? in britain, in 2023. i mean, that is astonishing- _ britain, in 2023. i mean, that is astonishing. it _ britain, in 2023. i mean, that is astonishing. it is _ britain, in 2023. i mean, that is astonishing. it is absolutely - astonishing. it is absolutely astonishing, and i think that as a developed nation, we really need to look at this as a matter of urgency. it is a public health crisis waiting to explode. in the area of lambeth that i work in, i have health and well—being hubs in places such as barbershops, in places such of churches, in social supermarkets. this is exactly what we are doing on the streets to try to tackle and reverse this issue, because it is a crisis waiting to happen. it is happening. and actually, our children are the next generation who are going to experience this burden of disease. so it is about time that we go out there, we take health out there, we begin to understand the living circumstances that people who are not born in a very deprived area, that in itself is something

they have to address their entire lives. their parents, as my colleagues have said,, they are perhaps just getting bread colleagues have said,, they are perhapsjust getting bread on colleagues have said,, they are perhaps just getting bread on the table, they are trying to do their job. they are literally working so hard just to exist that actually, very cheap food, that is what they have to do. that is what it demands. what the dr said about taking the health service to people, so supermarkets and so on, i wonder if there is also an issue, this is so big and so complex, professor, and so long—term, that politicians who are maybe only looking a few years ahead to the next general election, they do not take the long term view, is that fair? i they do not take the long term view, is that fair? ., �* ~ ., they do not take the long term view, is that fair?— is that fair? i don't know if that is that fair? i don't know if that is fair but _ is that fair? i don't know if that is fair but i _ is that fair? i don't know if that is fair but i think— is that fair? i don't know if that is fair but i think it _ is that fair? i don't know if that is fair but i think it is _ is that fair? i don't know if that is fair but i think it is true. - is that fair? i don't know if that is fair but i think it is true. i - is fair but i think it is true. i would — is fair but i think it is true. i would not _ is fair but i think it is true. i would not call it fair. what we have tried to _ would not call it fair. what we have tried to do — would not call it fair. what we have tried to do is break it down, so we have _ tried to do is break it down, so we

have a _ tried to do is break it down, so we have a number of recommendations and it is not— have a number of recommendations and it is not overwhelming. you can spend _ it is not overwhelming. you can spend more on reducing child poverty and the _ spend more on reducing child poverty and the minister of finance tomorrow could _ and the minister of finance tomorrow could reduce child poverty and he could _ could reduce child poverty and he could pull— could reduce child poverty and he could pull a lever and say i'm going to change _ could pull a lever and say i'm going to change the tax and benefit systems _ to change the tax and benefit systems in order to reduce child poverty. — systems in order to reduce child poverty, he could do that tomorrow, the minister— poverty, he could do that tomorrow, the minister in charge of education could _ the minister in charge of education could spend more on education, so going _ could spend more on education, so going through each of these areas it is doable _ going through each of these areas it is doable but there is a more general— is doable but there is a more general issue and this relates to what _ general issue and this relates to what you — general issue and this relates to what you just said about taking an individualistic approach. it is not 'ust individualistic approach. it is not just to _ individualistic approach. it is not just to health, i would like to think— just to health, i would like to think the _ just to health, i would like to think the pendulum is swinging to realise _ think the pendulum is swinging to realise there is such a thing is the common— realise there is such a thing is the common good and that means collective action and pulling together, and we pulled together when _ together, and we pulled together when it— together, and we pulled together when it is— together, and we pulled together when it is a football competition and we — when it is a football competition and we are all supporting the flag and we are all supporting the flag and our— and we are all supporting the flag and our team but recognising the

common— and our team but recognising the common good, recognising the necessity— common good, recognising the necessity of social action. this is common— necessity of social action. this is common in— necessity of social action. this is common in parlance in the netherlands, it is common in france and germany, the nordic countries, but it— and germany, the nordic countries, but it is— and germany, the nordic countries, but it is foreign to us.— but it is foreign to us. thank you very much _ but it is foreign to us. thank you very much to _ but it is foreign to us. thank you very much to all _ but it is foreign to us. thank you very much to all of _ but it is foreign to us. thank you very much to all of you - but it is foreign to us. thank you very much to all of you for- but it is foreign to us. thank you i very much to all of you for coming on the programme. when russia launched its full scale invasion of ukraine last year, a second, less visible battle got underway in cyberspace. the so called it army of ukraine has devoted itself to causing as much chaos in russia as possible like disabling hundreds of websites, disrupting banks and defacing websites with pro ukrainian messages. and likewise, in russia, hackers are doing the same to ukraine. the bbc�*s cyber correspondent joe tidy travelled to ukraine to talk to those fighting the cyber war and found the conflict has blurred the lines between "cyber

military" and "hacktivist" activity. when the full—scale invasion of ukraine began, a second and unprecedented battle got under way. websites have been taken down and defaced. private data stolen. broadcasts hijacked. i've travelled to ukraine to speak to those fighting in the cyber war... ..to find out how governments on either side are working with these armies of vigilante hackers, unleashing forces that they might not be able to control. this is killmilk, the leader of a russian hacker army that's been attacking ukraine and its allies since his country's invasion. he despises the west, and with bombastic videos like this,

has rallied a telegram group of hackers and supporters nearly 100,000 members strong. he wouldn't agree to a direct interview, but after weeks of asking, he sent us this video, before breaking off communication. this theatrical clip from killmilk shows him take a nato website offline temporarily. some nato websites are still experiencing availability issues. and it's notjust russians who are hacking for russia. i'm still carrying out attacks, yeah. these two hackers — an american and a dutch national — have carried out disruptive, but temporary attacks on ukraine and its allies too. i was hijacking the ukraine embassy. no target is off—limits. recently, killmilk called for attacks on hospitals in countries donating tanks to ukraine.

greetings, citizens of russia. on the other side, vigilante groups like anonymous have joined the fight, carrying out hundreds of attacks against russia. recently, another group called onefist hacked a russian radio station to play a fake air—raid siren. oleksandr was one of the hackers responsible. from his flat in central ukraine, he's carried out hacks with onefist and a vigilante group called the it army of ukraine. its telegram group is 200,000—strong.

as ordinary russians complained online, the regulator admitted it had been hit by a large ddos attack — a blunt, but effective, tool for taking a website or service offline temporarily. however, it seems the lines between vigilante hackers and military hackers have been blurred since the invasion. as the capital kyiv braced for attack, roman was helping carry out criminal hacks and building software for the war effort, as part of a volunteer group. you were a big part of, and one of the leaders of, it stand for ukraine. what happened? look at you now. i've met a guy who was responsible for the information war. i showed him all the data and all the things we've been doing. he was amazed and he said, "ok, come on, come on, roman. "come on, we need it."

i couldn't resist! even before he was recruited, roman confirms that his hacking team did work directly with the ukrainian authorities. they basically started to give us some targets and say what to do, when to do. what sort of targets were you going for in those early days? logistics, telecommunications. service companies. there were some disruptions in railway ticketing. so you took out the ticketing system for the southern russia railway? for something like 20 hours. 20 hours. so no—one could get tickets from the machines? no. that's a lot of disruption. it's the kind of attack that ukraine's cyber military could never publicly carry out themselves as a responsible nation, but is seemingly comfortable to stand back and watch. mikhail fedorov is minister for digital transformation.

as the full—scale war broke out, it was his department that controversially set up the telegram group for the it army of ukraine. do you think the lines have been blurred between what is and was criminal hacking and what is now accepted and encouraged by the government? but is it your view that anyone hacking russia currently is not doing anything criminal? woman's voice: have you never heard anything about those _ who are hacking russia? but there appears to be collusion on the other side too. evidence is growing that russian cyber military teams

could be working directly with the likes of killnet. the russian authorities didn't reply to our emails, but killmilk denied his group is linked to any special services. at ukraine's cybersecurity defence h0, they say killnet is a persistent problem, but they're facing attacks from dozens of other groups too. so, already, you've had 2,186, is that right? victor zhora is the leader of ukraine's cybersecurity authority. he says attacks from suspected russian cyber military are the most troubling and serious. every day, we deal with up to ten severe cyber incidents. reading the news in the uk or around the world, they might think that the cyber element to the conflict

is just insignificant. what would you say to that? of course, the impact of strikes of cruise missiles is much higher than of cyber attacks, but the reason that cyber attacks can bring such impact to ukrainian infrastructure is also due to our cyber—defending capabilities and efforts. in case we were weaker, these attacks would be more disruptive. just like in the physical realm, ukraine's defence in the cyber realm is being praised. some sources, though, have told me that the country's been worse affected than they've been admitting publicly. they're also being aided by cyber military teams and private cybersecurity companies, paid for from tens of millions of dollars donated to ukraine's cyber defence. some predict that the severity of attacks will increase, as russia struggles on the physical battlefield, and there's a concern

that hacktivists might cause serious harm if attacks get out of control. ted is one of the main coordinators of the it army of ukraine. are you in danger of gamifying hacking, in this regard? you've got a leaderboard up with the amount of attacks people are carrying out. this isn't playing, is it? this is serious criminal activity. talking from the standpoint of western laws, i think, yes. right? but when war is coming to your country, everything is changing. there are no good or bad ways to fight. thankfully, the cyberwar has proven to be less destructive than the physical war, but the conflict is no doubt rewriting the rules of engagement online. elon musk has hit back at competitors tonight by offering blue tick users the chance to make money from their followers by allowing subscriptions. will that make it the online space

where big intellectual ideas will be discussed? it's true that since musk bought twitter, some have fallen out of love with it because of its perceived toxicity, or the changes introduced since elon musk bought it. in the last week, musk has been in a spat with the newsletter service substack, which hasjust launched its competitor to twitter called notes. we'll talk to substack�*s founders in a moment. when elon musk bought twitter that he said it was important to the future of civilisation to have a common digital town square where a range of beliefs could be debated in a healthy manner. over the last few weeks that future has become a little less certain. yesterday america media organisation national public radio announced they would no longer post on twitter after it labelled them a state affiliated media. npr said we are not putting ourjournalist on platforms that have demonstrated an interest... the

label has since been changed to government funded media. but npr have not moved their position and today they were joined in their boycott by the broadcaster pbs. while media organisations are reckoning with how they use twitter, another front open, this time with a blogging platform, substack, which allows readers to subscribe to their favourite writers, one of its most high—profile british users is perhaps the former downing street adviser dominic cummings. until now it had focused on encouraging longform content but on tuesday it publicly launched substack notes where users can post short notices and links to each other and in response twitter temporarily restricted access to substack links, claiming that they had been downloading twitter data, without providing any evidence. substack denied this. they say they believe

that twitter and substack can coexist and complement each other. the question remains, if there is to be a digital town square of ideas, will it be found on twitter or could it be found soon that that bird has flown? tonight twitter hit back with elon musk announcing bluetit users to charge their followers with exclusive longform posts —— blue tick users. we contacted twitter for the story and we received an automatic reply. let's talk to hamish mckenzie, co—founder and chief writing officer of substack, and chris best, cofounder and ceo of substack. plus, vivian schiller, who was formerly head of news at twitter. and before that, she was ceo of us broadcaster national public radio, which left twitter yesterday. welcome, all of you. chris best, you used to say your subscription

service made you unique, but not after tonight. service made you unique, but not aftertonight. i service made you unique, but not aftertonight— after tonight. i actually think it does still make _ after tonight. i actually think it does still make us _ after tonight. i actually think it does still make us unique. - after tonight. i actually think it does still make us unique. i i after tonight. i actually think it i does still make us unique. i think the fact that we are a subscription network is an exciting differentially.- network is an exciting differentiall. �* ., ., network is an exciting differentiall. ., ., ~ differentially. but what elon musk has announced _ differentially. but what elon musk has announced this _ differentially. but what elon musk has announced this evening - differentially. but what elon musk has announced this evening is - differentially. but what elon musk| has announced this evening is blue tick users on twitter will get their followers to subscribe to their content and make money from it. that's true. 50 content and make money from it. that's true-— content and make money from it. that's true. so you are not unique any more- — that's true. so you are not unique any more- i— that's true. so you are not unique any more. i think— that's true. so you are not unique any more. i think the _ that's true. so you are not unique any more. i think the fact - that's true. so you are not unique any more. i think the fact that - any more. i think the fact that substack is — any more. i think the fact that substack is based _ any more. i think the fact that substack is based from - any more. i think the fact that substack is based from the i any more. i think the fact that - substack is based from the ground up on the subscription network, that writers on substack own their connection to their audience and have found substack to be a reliable platform makes is quite different. 0k. let platform makes is quite different. ok. let me ask you, hamish mckenzie, about the launch of substack notes. that looks to me like a clone of twitter. , ., , ., ,, that looks to me like a clone of twitter. , ., , ., ~ ., twitter. some people make that claim. twitter. some people make that claim- iout _ twitter. some people make that claim- iout you —

twitter. some people make that claim. but you can _ twitter. some people make that claim. but you can think- twitter. some people make that claim. but you can think of- twitter. some people make that claim. but you can think of it - twitter. some people make that| claim. but you can think of it kind of like an— claim. but you can think of it kind of like an electric car versus a gasoline _ of like an electric car versus a gasoline car. when the tesla came out, gasoline car. when the tesla came out. a _ gasoline car. when the tesla came out. a lot _ gasoline car. when the tesla came out. a lot of— gasoline car. when the tesla came out, a lot of people said it looks like the — out, a lot of people said it looks like the aston martin. it has a steering — like the aston martin. it has a steering wheel, windows, wheels, chasse. _ steering wheel, windows, wheels, chasse, but the underlying technology is totally different. an electric— technology is totally different. an electric car is totally different from — electric car is totally different from a — electric car is totally different from a card that runs on an internal combustion— from a card that runs on an internal combustion engine and the same is true for— combustion engine and the same is true for substack notes. yes, you can post _ true for substack notes. yes, you can post short form content and share _ can post short form content and share reading and recommendations, but the _ share reading and recommendations, but the underlying technology that drives _ but the underlying technology that drives it _ but the underlying technology that drives it is subscriptions, we are trying _ drives it is subscriptions, we are trying to— drives it is subscriptions, we are trying to maximise the amount of money— trying to maximise the amount of money that can go to a writer, we are not trying to maximise attention so we _ are not trying to maximise attention so we can— are not trying to maximise attention so we can serve advertisers. and that dynamic changes everything and makes _ that dynamic changes everything and makes it— that dynamic changes everything and makes it completely different. and that may be _ makes it completely different. fific that may be true, but makes it completely different. air. that may be true, but i makes it completely different. a"ic that may be true, but i wonder with notes, are you now not in direct competition with twitter? i think there are some _ competition with twitter? i think there are some things _ competition with twitter? i think there are some things that - competition with twitter? i think there are some things that will. competition with twitter? i think i there are some things that will put us in _ there are some things that will put us in a _ there are some things that will put us in a little bit of competition with— us in a little bit of competition with twitter, like is a writer going to decide — with twitter, like is a writer going to decide to post on twitter or

substack— to decide to post on twitter or substack notes? we think they can happily_ substack notes? we think they can happily coexist on both. but we are serving _ happily coexist on both. but we are serving the — happily coexist on both. but we are serving the needs of substack writers — serving the needs of substack writers within the substack network and a _ writers within the substack network and a lower focus is on helping them succeed _ and a lower focus is on helping them succeed and — and a lower focus is on helping them succeed and helping reid to support them and _ succeed and helping reid to support them and we are not really paying attention — them and we are not really paying attention to how twitter is deciding to play— attention to how twitter is deciding to play its game —— leaders. | attention to how twitter is deciding to play its game -- leaders.- to play its game -- leaders. i don't believe that. _ to play its game -- leaders. i don't believe that, of _ to play its game -- leaders. i don't believe that, of course _ to play its game -- leaders. i don't believe that, of course you - to play its game -- leaders. i don't believe that, of course you are, - believe that, of course you are, they are a competitor!- believe that, of course you are, they are a competitor! they are a competitor— they are a competitor! they are a competitor in _ they are a competitor! they are a competitor in some _ they are a competitor! they are a competitor in some regards, - they are a competitor! they are a competitor in some regards, but| they are a competitor! they are a i competitor in some regards, but we have enough of an exciting mission to help _ have enough of an exciting mission to help writers on substack so we will focus — to help writers on substack so we will focus on substack. fair enough. chris best. — will focus on substack. fair enough. chris best. if _ will focus on substack. fair enough. chris best, if notes _ will focus on substack. fair enough. chris best, if notes takes _ will focus on substack. fair enough. chris best, if notes takes off, - will focus on substack. fair enough. chris best, if notes takes off, are i chris best, if notes takes off, are you ready and do have the capacity and the moderators to take down hateful messages, etc? we and the moderators to take down hateful messages, etc?— hateful messages, etc? we are absolutely _ hateful messages, etc? we are absolutely ready, _ hateful messages, etc? we are absolutely ready, it _ hateful messages, etc? we are absolutely ready, it is - hateful messages, etc? we are absolutely ready, it is going - hateful messages, etc? we are absolutely ready, it is going to | hateful messages, etc? we are i absolutely ready, it is going to be exciting and part of the magic of the substack network is because people are subscribing directly to writers they trust rather than rely on top—down censorship, you get a lot of benefits of writers and

leaders being in charge and able to do their own moderation and choose for themselves what kind of community they want to be a part of. i want to read you this quote, if i may, from the anti—defamation league, they say, substack continues to attract its extremists and conspiracy theories, routinely use the site to profit from spreading anti—semitism, disinformation and hate speech. anti-semitism, disinformation and hate speech-— hate speech. there is a theory out there that goes, _ hate speech. there is a theory out there that goes, the _ hate speech. there is a theory out there that goes, the answer - hate speech. there is a theory out there that goes, the answer to - there that goes, the answer to speech and ideas that we don't like is to shut them down. and there are a lot of people that believe that, a lot of people think that is the right way to run these platforms. we actually don't believe that, we think the freedom of speech and freedom of the press are essential to a free society. and what is more, the approach where we have giant moderation teams where centralised decision—makers get to decide what is right and what is true has been tried and it has not worked. we are

trying something different with substack and it is actually going tremendously well so far. if i may come at chris _ tremendously well so far. if i may come at chris best, _ tremendously well so far. if i may come at chris best, that - tremendously well so far. if i may come at chris best, that answer. come at chris best, that answer sounds like the sort of thing elon musk would say. if there is anti—semitism and racism and homophobia, are you saying that is ok because that is freedom of speech? —— ifi ok because that is freedom of speech? —— if i may, chris best. i think people who want to promote censorship always have a lot of great reasons they claim to do so. there are people in this country that want to ban books, they want to edit box from all sides of the political spectrum. there is always a really compelling reason why we can't have a free press or we have to clamp down on speech —— to ban books. we don't accept those arguments, we want to be on the side of writers, we want to be a reliable partner to them, to the extent that other platforms stand for a free press, we stand with them, we think it is just press, we stand with them, we think it isjust important press, we stand with them, we think it is just important to live up to those values. 50 it is just important to live up to those values.— it is just important to live up to those values. ., , ., , ., those values. so anything goes on substack? we _ those values. so anything goes on substack? we do _ those values. so anything goes on substack? we do have _ those values. so anything goes on substack? we do have a _ those values. so anything goes on

substack? we do have a content i substack? we do have a content policy. but _ substack? we do have a content policy. but it _ substack? we do have a content policy. but it is _ substack? we do have a content policy, but it is deliberately - policy, but it is deliberately designed to allow a very wide web. not about things we agree with things we think are good, we take a strong stance in favour of freedom of the press because we think it is essential to a free internet, a free society. essential to a free internet, a free socie . ., ., ., society. vivian schiller, how would ou react society. vivian schiller, how would you react to _ society. vivian schiller, how would you react to the — society. vivian schiller, how would you react to the move _ society. vivian schiller, how would you react to the move by - society. vivian schiller, how would you react to the move by elon - society. vivian schiller, how would l you react to the move by elon musk tonight to allow blue tick users to make money through subscribers essentially?— make money through subscribers essentially? you know, i think he should take- _ essentially? you know, i think he should take. of— essentially? you know, i think he should take. of all— essentially? you know, i think he should take. of all the _ essentially? you know, i think he should take. of all the things - essentially? you know, i think he| should take. of all the things elon musk. _ should take. of all the things elon musk. his — should take. of all the things elon musk, his recent— should take. of all the things elon musk, his recent moves— should take. of all the things elon musk, his recent moves come - should take. of all the things elon musk, his recent moves come at. should take. of all the things elon- musk, his recent moves come at this to me _ musk, his recent moves come at this to me is _ musk, his recent moves come at this to me is the — musk, his recent moves come at this to me is the least _ musk, his recent moves come at this to me is the least controversial. - to me is the least controversial. which _ to me is the least controversial. which doesn't _ to me is the least controversial. which doesn't mean _ to me is the least controversial. which doesn't mean that - to me is the least controversial. which doesn't mean that it - to me is the least controversial. which doesn't mean that it willl to me is the least controversial. i which doesn't mean that it will be successful~ — which doesn't mean that it will be successful. look, _ which doesn't mean that it will be successful. look, we _ which doesn't mean that it will be successful. look, we are - which doesn't mean that it will be successful. look, we are talking i successful. look, we are talking as if substack — successful. look, we are talking as if substack and _ successful. look, we are talking as if substack and twitter— successful. look, we are talking as if substack and twitter are - successful. look, we are talking as if substack and twitter are the - successful. look, we are talking asj if substack and twitter are the only publishing — if substack and twitter are the only publishing platforms _ if substack and twitter are the only publishing platforms in— if substack and twitter are the only publishing platforms in the - if substack and twitter are the only publishing platforms in the world, i publishing platforms in the world, there _ publishing platforms in the world, there is— publishing platforms in the world, there is a — publishing platforms in the world, there is a big. _ publishing platforms in the world, there is a big, broad— publishing platforms in the world, there is a big, broad universe - publishing platforms in the world, there is a big, broad universe out| there is a big, broad universe out there _ there is a big, broad universe out there and — there is a big, broad universe out there and before _ there is a big, broad universe out there and before substack, - there is a big, broad universe out there and before substack, there| there is a big, broad universe out - there and before substack, there was blogging. _ there and before substack, there was blogging. there — there and before substack, there was blogging, there were _ there and before substack, there was blogging, there were newsletters. . blogging, there were newsletters. execution — blogging, there were newsletters. execution and _ blogging, there were newsletters. execution and audience _ blogging, there were newsletters. execution and audience are - execution and audience are everything _ execution and audience are everything. what— execution and audience are everything. what substackl execution and audience are i everything. what substack did execution and audience are - everything. what substack did is take didn't — everything. what substack did is take didn't invent— everything. what substack did is take didn't invent newsletters i everything. what substack did is take didn't invent newsletters ori take didn't invent newsletters or publishing. _ take didn't invent newsletters or publishing. but_ take didn't invent newsletters or publishing, but created - take didn't invent newsletters or publishing, but created a - take didn't invent newsletters or. publishing, but created a platform that was _ publishing, but created a platform that was very _ publishing, but created a platform that was very effective _ publishing, but created a platform that was very effective for-

publishing, but created a platform that was very effective for both i that was very effective for both writers — that was very effective for both writers and leaders. _ that was very effective for both writers and leaders. twitter, i that was very effective for both - writers and leaders. twitter, same thing. _ writers and leaders. twitter, same thing. captured _ writers and leaders. twitter, same thing, captured lightning _ writers and leaders. twitter, same thing, captured lightning in- writers and leaders. twitter, same thing, captured lightning in a - thing, captured lightning in a bottle — thing, captured lightning in a bottle when— thing, captured lightning in a bottle when it _ thing, captured lightning in a bottle when it came - thing, captured lightning in a bottle when it came to - thing, captured lightning in a bottle when it came to this . thing, captured lightning in a - bottle when it came to this short form, _ bottle when it came to this short form. 140 — bottle when it came to this short form. 140 and _ bottle when it came to this short form, 140 and 280 _ bottle when it came to this short form, 140 and 280 character- form, 140 and 280 character information _ form, 140 and 280 character information sharing - form, 140 and 280 character information sharing service i form, 140 and 280 character. information sharing service that captured — information sharing service that captured the _ information sharing service that captured the world. _ information sharing service that captured the world. that - information sharing service that captured the world. that does l information sharing service that . captured the world. that does not mean _ captured the world. that does not mean that— captured the world. that does not mean that twitter _ captured the world. that does not mean that twitter is _ captured the world. that does not mean that twitter is going - captured the world. that does not mean that twitter is going to - captured the world. that does not mean that twitter is going to be l mean that twitter is going to be good _ mean that twitter is going to be good in — mean that twitter is going to be good in the _ mean that twitter is going to be good in the tong _ mean that twitter is going to be good in the long form _ mean that twitter is going to be good in the long form and - mean that twitter is going to be good in the long form and that i mean that twitter is going to be - good in the long form and that does not mean substack _ good in the long form and that does not mean substack is _ good in the long form and that does not mean substack is going - good in the long form and that does not mean substack is going to be i not mean substack is going to be good _ not mean substack is going to be good at _ not mean substack is going to be good at doing _ not mean substack is going to be good at doing something - not mean substack is going to be good at doing something that - not mean substack is going to be . good at doing something that looks like twitter~ — good at doing something that looks like twitter. like _ good at doing something that looks like twitter. like i— good at doing something that looks like twitter. like i said, _ good at doing something that looks like twitter. like i said, there - good at doing something that looks like twitter. like i said, there are l like twitter. like i said, there are marry— like twitter. like i said, there are marry other— like twitter. like i said, there are many other avenues— like twitter. like i said, there are many other avenues for— like twitter. like i said, there are| many other avenues for audiences to lo. many other avenues for audiences to 9d 50— many other avenues for audiences to 9d so let's — many other avenues for audiences to 9d so let's not — many other avenues for audiences to go. so let's not look— many other avenues for audiences to go. so let's not look at _ many other avenues for audiences to go. so let's not look at the _ many other avenues for audiences to go. so let's not look at the battle . go. so let's not look at the battle of the _ go. so let's not look at the battle of the titans _ go. so let's not look at the battle of the titans. let _ go. so let's not look at the battle of the titans.— go. so let's not look at the battle of the titans. let me ask you about npr, of the titans. let me ask you about npr. used — of the titans. let me ask you about npr. used to _ of the titans. let me ask you about npr, used to run _ of the titans. let me ask you about npr, used to run it, _ of the titans. let me ask you about npr, used to run it, do _ of the titans. let me ask you about npr, used to run it, do you - of the titans. let me ask you about npr, used to run it, do you agree | npr, used to run it, do you agree with their decision to leave twitter over the way twitter had labelled them as government funded? first. them as government funded? first, them as government funded? first, they labelled _ them as government funded? first, they labelled them _ them as government funded? first, they labelled them a _ them as government funded? first, they labelled them a state - they labelled them a state affiliated. _ they labelled them a state affiliated. which _ they labelled them a state affiliated. which is- they labelled them a state affiliated. which is what i they labelled them a state . affiliated. which is what they they labelled them a state - affiliated. which is what they used with rt _ affiliated. which is what they used with rt npr_ affiliated. which is what they used with rt npr is— affiliated. which is what they used with rt. npr is not— affiliated. which is what they used with rt. npr is not the _ affiliated. which is what they used i with rt. npr is not the mouthpiece of the _ with rt. npr is not the mouthpiece of the government. _ with rt. npr is not the mouthpiece of the government. it _ with rt. npr is not the mouthpiece of the government. it is _ with rt. npr is not the mouthpiecel of the government. it is government funded, _ of the government. it is government funded, that is— of the government. it is government funded, that is a _

of the government. it is government funded, that is a factual— of the government. it is government funded, that is a factual statement. i funded, that is a factual statement. however. _ funded, that is a factual statement. however. the — funded, that is a factual statement. however, the fact _ funded, that is a factual statement. however, the fact npr _ funded, that is a factual statement. however, the fact npr and - funded, that is a factual statement. however, the fact npr and pbs - funded, that is a factual statement. however, the fact npr and pbs are| however, the fact npr and pbs are now however, the fact npr and pbs are how the _ however, the fact npr and pbs are how the only— however, the fact npr and pbs are now the only government _ however, the fact npr and pbs are now the only government funded . however, the fact npr and pbs are i now the only government funded news organisation _ now the only government funded news organisation labelled _ now the only government funded news organisation labelled such _ now the only government funded news organisation labelled such clearly- organisation labelled such clearly to me _ organisation labelled such clearly to me indicates _ organisation labelled such clearly to me indicates this _ organisation labelled such clearly to me indicates this was - organisation labelled such clearly to me indicates this was a - to me indicates this was a deliberate _ to me indicates this was a deliberate attempt - to me indicates this was a deliberate attempt for- to me indicates this was a. deliberate attempt for elon to me indicates this was a - deliberate attempt for elon musk to punish _ deliberate attempt for elon musk to punish them — deliberate attempt for elon musk to punish them for _ deliberate attempt for elon musk to punish them for something - deliberate attempt for elon musk to punish them for something they - punish them for something they undoubtably _ punish them for something they undoubtably wrote. _ punish them for something they undoubtably wrote. i— punish them for something they undoubtably wrote. i think- punish them for something theyi undoubtably wrote. i think npr, punish them for something they - undoubtably wrote. i think npr, they didn't— undoubtably wrote. i think npr, they didn't cancel— undoubtably wrote. i think npr, they didn't cancel their— undoubtably wrote. i think npr, they didn't cancel their accounts _ undoubtably wrote. i think npr, they didn't cancel their accounts or- undoubtably wrote. i think npr, they didn't cancel their accounts or shut. didn't cancel their accounts or shut that counts, — didn't cancel their accounts or shut that counts, they have _ didn't cancel their accounts or shut that counts, they have 70 - didn't cancel their accounts or shut that counts, they have 70 million i that counts, they have 70 million followers, — that counts, they have 70 million followers, but _ that counts, they have 70 million followers, but the _ that counts, they have 70 million followers, but the fact _ that counts, they have 70 million followers, but the fact they - that counts, they have 70 million followers, but the fact they are l that counts, they have 70 millionl followers, but the fact they are no longer _ followers, but the fact they are no longer tweeting _ followers, but the fact they are no longer tweeting on _ followers, but the fact they are no longer tweeting on the _ followers, but the fact they are no longer tweeting on the platform . longer tweeting on the platform harms _ longer tweeting on the platform harms twitter _ longer tweeting on the platform harms twitter more than - longer tweeting on the platform harms twitter more than it - harms twitter more than it harms npr~ _ harms twitter more than it harms npr. ~ ., harms twitter more than it harms npr. . ., , , npr. well, that is interesting, i wondered about _ npr. well, that is interesting, i wondered about that, _ npr. well, that is interesting, i wondered about that, who - npr. well, that is interesting, i | wondered about that, who loses npr. well, that is interesting, i - wondered about that, who loses most by reading —— by leaving twitter, npr or twitter? iii by reading -- by leaving twitter, npr or twitter?— npr or twitter? if news organisations _ npr or twitter? if news organisations began - npr or twitter? if news organisations began to | npr or twitter? if news - organisations began to abandon twitter— organisations began to abandon twitter as — organisations began to abandon twitter as a _ organisations began to abandon twitter as a platform _ organisations began to abandon twitter as a platform where - organisations began to abandoni twitter as a platform where they share _ twitter as a platform where they share information, _ twitter as a platform where they share information, the _ twitter as a platform where they share information, the already. share information, the already frankly— share information, the already frankly dwindling _ share information, the already frankly dwindling value - share information, the already frankly dwindling value of - share information, the already frankly dwindling value of the i frankly dwindling value of the platform _ frankly dwindling value of the platform will— frankly dwindling value of the platform will continue - frankly dwindling value of the platform will continue to - frankly dwindling value of the . platform will continue to erode, to the point _ platform will continue to erode, to the point where _ platform will continue to erode, to the point where i— platform will continue to erode, to the point where i think— platform will continue to erode, to the point where i think you - platform will continue to erode, to the point where i think you will- platform will continue to erode, to| the point where i think you will see continuing — the point where i think you will see continuing audience _ the point where i think you will see continuing audience haemorrhage.| the point where i think you will see - continuing audience haemorrhage. 0k, let me ask continuing audience haemorrhage. let me ask you, hamish mckenzie, as we reach the end of our conversation, which is the online

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