this is bbc news. we will have the headlines and all the main stories at the top of the hour as newsday continues straight after hardtalk. welcome to hardtalk, i'm stephen sackur. there is no mistaking the deep sense of unease hanging over israel. the death toll in the conflict of the palestinians has surged in recent months just as israel's far—right

nationalist government led by benjamin netanyahu has been rocked by mass protests and civil disobedience at home and unprecedented criticism from allies overseas. my guest is a member of parliament in mr netanyahu's likud party, and former minister, danny danon. is the great survivor netanyahu nowjeopardising the future of israel? danny danon injerusalem, welcome to hardtalk. thank you for having me, stephen. it is a pleasure to have you on the show. would you agree that right now israel appears to be

in a very perilous position? you have deep political turmoil at home and a security crisis at the very same time. the former makes it more difficult to deal with the latter, doesn't it? well, it is never boring here in israel. we are a very dynamic democracy and as you mentioned we don't have the best neighbours in the world and we have to face with the security issues and indeed in the last few days we've seen attacks from different directions and we believe it is not a coincidence. we think it is all coming from the same source, from iran, that is why we are dealing together with ourforces pushing back our enemies. surely the real lesson of the last few weeks is that you reap what you sow and the most extreme far—right in government, in israel's history is very much reaping what it is sowing in terms of the alienation, the anger,

the frustration amongst palestinians, particularly those living in the occupied west bank. i beg to differ with you. we are a democracy, we went to elections a few months ago and the government was democratically elected. unfortunately with the palestinians nothing is new. when you're either a left—wing government they are not willing to negotiate with us. when you have a right wing more conservative government they are not willing to negotiate with us and we think that the radical forces taking over. in gaza, we know that hamas took over more than a decade ago so it is unfortunate, when we are signing peace treaties with moderate arab countries in the region, we see that the radical forces among the palestinians are becoming more and more stronger. it's a bit rich, isn't it, mr danon, to say that the west bank and the palestinians are not interested in negotiating with you, your government, the coalition, is most

definitely not interested in negotiating with them. never before has there been a government so full of ministers who only want one thing and that is the complete annexation of all that occupied territory. that is what you have wanted for years, it is what people like mr smotrich and mr ben—gvir want and it's what this government appears to be intent on achieving. so, first of all, that is not the policy of the government. crosstalk it's the policy of individuals i have just i named including yourself. you started calling for the annexation of occupied territory in the west bank as far back as 2011. let's talk first of all about the narrative. i never called it annexation, you cannot annex something that belonged to us. i called at applied sovereignty. you talk to international lawyers about that, mr danon. well, i will but i never called it annexation and second,

we never called for annexing all the land in judea and samaria. we do believe that we should apply sovereignty over thejewish communities injudea and samaria. but let me ask you that. we are now celebrating 75 years of independence here in israel and look what we achieved in 75 years. why the palestinians, what they did in the last 75 years was to reject any proposal. it started with the un partition plan, when we said yes, they said no. since then we have dozens of governments, they never agreed to sit down and negotiate with us like we did with egypt, jordan, uae, bahrain, morocco and other arab countries in the region. we have spoken before, you and me and i have spoken to many israelis over the years. i'm not going to rehearse 60 or 70 years of history, i'm going to focus on what is happening right now. what we have in israel today is a government which has just passed a law allowing israeli citizens to move back into at least four settlement sites that were previously

declared illegal, something the us government has described as provocative and counterproductive. we have an extended pace of palestinian home demolition in eastjerusalem which the un says is happening at nearly double the rate of this same period last year. what palestinians see, here and now, day by day is a government which is intent on taking their land, taking their homes and massively expanding jewish settlement. well, that is not the case. it is the case. i wish it was the case. it's not the case and actually i criticise the government for actually freezing the buildings injudea and samaria. you mentioned that with the americans and the talks in sharm el—sheikh and they agreed to free the building in thejewish communities injudea and samaria, by the way, think it is a mistake. when we are experiencing a wave of terror, the answer to that

should be to perform that we are here to stay, to make sure that we build injudea and samaria and every day we are under attack. five days ago, three british citizens were killed, daylight. there were killed while they were driving in their car in thejordan valley. two daughters were killed on the spot and the mother was killed a few days later. we haven't had any condemnation from president abbas or any leader from the palestinian authorities so if somebody thinks those terror attacks could push us away from our land, that is a mistake. the answer to that will be to build more, to bring more jews to israel. that would be the answer to terrorism. the figures are indeed very depressing. you refer to the tragic murder of three british israeli women, a mother and her two daughters. 0verall israel has lost more citizens, civilians this year to terror attacks. the same indeed is true

for the palestinians. they have lost more civilians to violence either from the israeli military or from israeli jewish settlers this year as well. the spiral of violence is deepening and what we see is that your government is full of ministers who appear to want to provoke more violence, including, for example, minister smotrich who actually liked a tweet that suggested one palestinian village, huwara, should be quote "erased" from the map. first i want to recommend you to check your facts. we don't attack civilians. we attack terrorists. i referred to civilian deaths, mr danon. the statistics are undeniable. in many cases those terrorists are hiding behind civilians and using them as human shields, but our intentions are peaceful.

you will never see an israeli policeman or soldier attacking civilians. what we do, we protect our people and we try to neutralise the threat to our people and we regret the loss of any palestinian civilians. i'm sorry, mr danon. you seem to be ignoring the substance of my question which is about a particular palestinian village. i will answer your question but first let me complete my answer. they glorify the deaths of israeli civilians, they celebrate it. you can see the pictures and the videos, maybe you will show it, we don't do that. we regret the loss of life from every innocent men, whether it isjewish, christian or muslim, period.

but the culture of hate is the problem we are facing and when israelis hear about anyone who is being hurt, whether it is an israeli or palestinian with a civilian, we condemn it, we regret it and that is what happened for centuries. it is not the same for the palestinian leadership, they choose to glorify terror attacks. they name squares and schools after terrorists and by the way, they are paying them a monthly salary, more than usd$1000 for the family of terrorists who are sitting in the jails in israel after the murder or the committed suicide attempt, then the family will get the payment. you still haven't addressed the point that two senior ministers in the government which you support as a likud member of knesset, two senior ministers stand accused of a history of race hate and extremism. i referred to mr smotrich who, when jewish settlers went on a rampage in the village of huwara, he liked a tweet which said that village should be erased from the map and i also refer to minister ben—gvir, who has long expressed views, this is according to an american—jewish leadership group, long expressed views that

are abhorrent to the vast majority of american jews because they are representative of anti—arab racism, virulent homophobia, a full throated embrace of jewish supremacy. these are seniorfigures in the government you support. so mr smotrich retracted his statement and the government is being led by prime minister netanyahu and the likud party, which i'm a senior member of the party, and we are the one who decide about the policy, so i welcome you to criticise our policy, not a statement made by a minister within the party. (crosstalk) you will allow me to complete my answer before l you ask the next question and our policy is a responsible policy. prime minister netanyahu has been in office for more than 15 years and he has proved that he is capable of leading the nation in a responsible

manner, that is why he was re—elected three months ago so with all due respect towards the ministers you mentioned, they are not actually running the cabinet, they are not running the government, you have more than 30 ministers in the government. few of them you mentioned but you have many, many more with different opinions. just one more point on this government you appear absolutely determined to continue to support, mr ben—gvir, who we've just mentioned, is talking about setting up a new militia group which he would control. i wonder whether you think that will help or inflame the situation. there will be no militia in israel, you can relax with that, we are a democracy. there is an idea of forming a national guard to ask volunteers to support the work of the police.

i think it is a good idea in general, we have to put content into that idea and to regulate it but i'm sure once we will build this national guard will work with the police and help us in times of emergency. you have similarforces in other democracies. nobody is building militias in israel, we have the government, the military, the police force, it will continue to be an organised government. the this violence which we have both referred to, obviously your perspective is your own, this violence is occurring at a time when there is deep political instability inside israel. benjamin netanyahu the prime minister seems rattled right now. when it comes to security, there is a problem. he fired his defence minister just a couple of weeks ago and he has now reinstated him. i don't know what kind of message that sends to the israeli public about stability at the top of israel's government when it comes to key security policy. first, let's put the facts right, again. the minister of defence was not

fired, the prime minister announced that he intends to fire him, he didn't do it. officially, legally, in order to fire a minister, the prime minister can do it at any moment. he has to write a letter and announce that he is firing the minister and he has done it many times in the past. he announced his intention but he never sent the letter and i think he made the right statement, a few days ago when he announced that the defence minister would stay in office, i think the minister is capable of leading the military and dealing with the situation today, i think it was the right decision. very interesting you say that because mr gallant, the defence minister is the very same mr gallant who warned just a few short weeks ago that such was the political backlash, the internal israeli discontent with the government's judicial reform plan that,

quote, he feared "insubordination is so widespread within the ranks of israel's reservists, it's armed force reserves that it may harm the idf�*s ability to continue to carry out its missions." that's mr gallantjust a couple of weeks ago, do you think he still feels that today? first of all, it's legitimate to say what you think. by the way, i've had also criticism for the judicial reform. i thought it was done not in the right way. i didn't criticise the content, but i think it was the way it was performed and delivered were not the right way to do it and i think we should learn the lessons from that. crosstalk. hang on, what lessons should be learned? should binyamin netanyahu do a u—turn and abandon this reform plan? no, my criticism was about the execution of the idea, we should do it slower, we should listen to our opponents, we should have a dialogue and we should try to reach a compromise. that was my position. by the way, from a beginning,

i told it to my colleagues in the party that you should take a slower and do it in a different way. unfortunately, my position was not accepted and only now after major demonstrations we actually decided to relax, slowdown, and we started a dialogue under the auspices of president herzog. but going back to the question about gallant, i think we have to make it very clear that we expect our soldiers, once they wear the uniforms, to put politics aside. they cannot decide about policy. sometimes you will have people from the left that are not happy with the policy, some other times people from the right. when you wear the uniform of the idf we expect you to follow the orders and not to start to decide what you want to do or what you don't want to do. let's face it, mr danon, you are an elected politician, you know how politics works, the polls right now are horrible for you, your party, and your government. it's clear from a bunch

of polls that roughly two—thirds of the israeli public do not support these judicial reforms, whichjust to remind people, would massively increase the power of the majority in the knesset to control israel's highest court. that's what the reform would do. the public doesn't like it. and according to the latest media polling, your party support�*s stands at a low which would give it only 20 seats in the knesset and only 25% of the israeli public believe that netanyahu should continue in government. he's going to have to recognise reality, isn't he? first, regarding the polls, the main question was in front of the israelis only three months ago when they went to vote a few months ago, we had elections. with respect, plenty�*s changed in the last three months. and that's what counts. the second point, the way you describe the reform is not accurate at all.

what we were trying to do is to balance the system. you know, when you have a democracy you have checks and balances and what we believed and felt, and many of our supporters believed it as well, the judicial system took too much powerfrom the knesset, and our parliament, and the executive branch of government and we were trying to balance it. maybe we did it too fast, maybe we did in a way that should not be done. but the principle is to balance it. and, by the way, because we have too many elections, like the same problems you have in the uk with your system and in the us, many democracies are in trouble today, we feel the judicial system took too much powerfrom us and what we are doing we are balancing it, we are not reforming the system completely. but, mr danon, very briefly... we will still be a strong democracy, i can assure you of that. right, but, mr danon, you keep saying "we did wrong, we should have done it slower." the bottom line is in a couple of weeks, when the knesset

returns, netanyahu faces a stark choice. he either pushes through the reforms, pretty much unchanged, or he has to retreat with all the political humiliation that will go with that. which is he going to do? i think it will be the middle ground. i really believe in it. and, by the way, i have conversations with many of my colleagues from the opposition and, you know, i was at the un for five years as the israeli ambassador and i know how to negotiate in many crises. and i think we can negotiate a compromise to find the middle ground that will basically give — not as the ruling party — but will give the parliament more power with the system of thejudicial system. today we are in power, but tomorrow somebody else will be in power. we want to balance the system. i see if we can negotiate a compromise. you are an experienced diplomat. you just referred to the fact that you spent years in new york as the israel ambassador to the united nations.

how concerned are you that what has happened with this botched reform which netanyahu has now put on pause has caused deep disquiet in washington, dc and other capitals, friendly allies of israel. joe biden said the other day "like many strong supporters of israel i am very concerned. they cannot continue down this road." does the fact the us wants netanyahu to back off make any difference? well, i think our allies understand the details. you know, it's not only the headlines and the pictures of the demonstrations. when you actually read the content you realise that's part of democracy. that in 1992 the supreme court started to take power from the parliament and now we're bringing the power back and we're going to find the way to balance it. so the us is a strong democracy, the uk is a strong democracy, but all of the democracies in the world they have these dialogues, they have challenges, they have legislation. look what happened in the us a few years ago... crosstalk.

the justice of the supreme court... crosstalk. we do have the dialogue with our allies... crosstalk. of course you do! you have a dialogue but this is not business as usual. the israeli ambassador in washington was just all hauled in to talk to the state department because they are unhappy about settlement policy and your own former prime minister, yair lapid, just said this. he said, "for decades israel was the usa's closest ally but the most extreme government in our country's history has ruined all of that in three months." well, you know, he is the leader of the opposition and what he is doing now is going outside of israel to criticise us. i think that's not the way to handle your position as leader of the opposition. at the end of the day, the bond with the us is a strong bond, it will continue to be a strong bond, and i'm not worried about that. and, by the way, it's legitimate to have disagreements for every time,

and that is what we're doing with our allies, but i think at the end of the day when the people will see the result, what will be the outcome of the judicial reform they will understand that it's not a crisis, it's not the end of democracy, it's just another part of the checks and balances of our society and democracy. well, some would say you want to remove those checks and balances. just a final thought on diplomacy, your special area, you claimed just a few short months ago that it peace deal, a normalisation of relations with saudi arabia was in the offing. you were completely wrong, were't you? what we have seen as israel has plunged into crisis with this far—right government, what we've seen is the saudi arabia government has made a decision to warm up its ties with iran, thanks to the diplomacy of china. you got that very wrong. no, ithink, stephen, you have to be patient. also when i spoke about some surprises in the middle east

before we signed that agreement, the abraham accords, people were sceptical. and i'm still optimistic about the chances to move forward in saudi arabia. i think it's very important not only for us, and i think we to speak a little bit about what's happening with iran. the nuclear race to a bomb, it is a threat to the saudis, and that's what we're doing also with our allies... crosstalk. mr danon, we're almost out of time. but listen, the point i'm trying to make is that while you believed the tide was running in your direction, that saudi arabia was going to join the other gulf states in normalisation, you got it wrong. the chinese diplomacy has brokered a deal between saudi arabia and iran, your archenemy. and from a diplomatic point of view, while there is turmoil at home in israel the diplomatic field has also turned against your country. so, again, be patient, stephen. we will have come back to you, to your studio in london, or do it from jerusalem, after we have signed a peace

treaty with saudi arabia. i believe it will happen. i cannot tell you exactly when but i believe it will happen. and i think also the us, they should think about why the saudis actually signed this agreement with iran, why the chinese became so involved in the region, but in terms of the interests of israel and the saudis, i still believe that it's a win—win and that's why we will see something good happening in the region with the saudis. all right, well, danny danon, we have run out of time, but i thank you very much forjoining me on hardtalk. thank you.

thursday's broad us a day of sunshine and showers. many of those showers came from these open skyline of hastings for the of hastings many of the showers came from hastings, not too far away from kent. the rail heavy down paul which brought two cm of hail, which was reported. temperatures came down to about one celsius as well so sudden drop in temperatures as that storm went through. at the moment we still have a few showers left over across scotland, but otherwise some clear spells around. a bit of rain starting to edge back into seven parts of wales. a chilly start to friday with temperatures one to three degrees. this area of low pressure moves rain across southern wales, southern areas of england and then dives into northern france. away from that for scotland and northern ireland it's another day of showers,

the showers heavy with hail and thunder and some of them slow—moving as well. across england and wales that is that low pressure moves into france it changes the wind flow and we get this zone of convergence with the winds bash together, a big line thunderstorms form. maybe we will get an odd final clown from that kind of area. whether sunshine comes out, even though temperatures will be below average everywhere, it won't feel too bad. where cloudy, ten, 11 degrees, that's not going to feel too great. but into the weekend we go and the prospect is the weather is going to turn dryer, sunnier, and a deal warmer as pressure rises and we start to get these milder southerly winds blowing away across the country on saturday and into sunday as well. weather—wise, not a bad start of the weekend. most of us will see some spells of sunshine, a few showers left over in england, and the threat of it turning a bit cloudier for northern ireland into the afternoon, maybe a patch of rain and the extreme west. it is starting to get warmer and 50 degrees, given the light winds for glasgow and 15

degrees, given the light winds for glasco in london, it should feel pleasant in the sunshine. the emphasis is on a lot of dry and reasonably sunny weather i think for most of us on sunday. that said, a bit more on the way of cloud and western areas with an odd spot of light rain, temperatures climbing 15 in liverpool, manchester, 17 in london area, and that should be a pleasantly warm day. high pressure hangs around so a lot of pressure and april spells of sunshine but very brisk winds developing in the southeast towards the middle part of the week.

welcome to newsday, reporting live from singapore, i'm karishma vaswani. the headlines.. the moment the fbi says it arrested a suspect, in the worst leak of secret us intelligence documents in years. today, the justice today, thejustice department arrested jack teixeira, and connection with an investigation into an alleged unauthorised removal, transmission, of national defence information. president biden meets the irish prime minister and addresses the country's parliament, on the second day of his visit to the republic. brazil's new president lula da silva prepares to meet his counterpart

xijinping as he continues his trip in china.