this is bbc news. the headlines: the un secretary general calls for an immediate ceasefire in sudan after at least 56 people were killed in clashes between rival military factions. the leader of the nurses�* union says they're prepared to continue strikes in england right up to christmas unless the government puts more money on the table for a pay deal. the chief minister of the indian state of uttar pradesh appeals for calm after a former politician convicted of kidnapping is shot dead live on tv along with his brother. the building of all new smart motorways in england is being cancelled over safety concerns and costs — this includes 11 already on pause and three set for construction. a sacred, ancient symbol of scotland's monarchy known as �*the stone of destiny�* will make the journey from edinburgh castle to westminster abbey for the king's coronation.

you're watching bbc news. now it's time for hard talk. welcome to hardtalk.

welcome to hardtalk with me, zeinab badawi, here in florida, where my guest is 98—year—old ben ferencz. ben ferencz, welcome to hardtalk. you were born in 1920 in transylvania in central europe. you moved to the united states with your family when you were a little baby. you really epitomise the american dream, a kind of rags to riches story, because it was discovered that you were highly intelligent and you were put on a fast track to harvard law school. we arrived in america. my parents were young immigrants fleeing persecution and poverty, no money, no skills, no language, and lucky to have some friendly new yorker offer us, my father, who had been trained as a shoemaker, but they didn't need any boots made in new york, there were no cowboys. but the owner of a building

offered us the opportunity to sleep in the cellar and my father would be the janitor. and that's where we began and that's where my memory begins, in a high crime density area known — for good reason — as hell's kitchen. there was a lot of crime there. is that what excited your interest in law and pursuing a career in law? well, it did excite my interest in not being on the criminal side. i mean, put it that way. there was crime all around, and i had made up my mind early that i didn't want to be a cowboy and i didn't want to be a fireman and i didn't want to be a crook either. and that sort of much left me to go to the law and i have focused on it ever since. after you graduated from harvard law school in 1943, you joined the us military and joined a battalion preparing for the invasion of france. what are your key recollections of that time? i enlisted wherever i could get

into the army and i was a buck private, the lowest rank you can get, assigned to be in the artillery battalion. in that capacity, we landed on the beaches of normandy. france was occupied by the germans. the only way to...move the war forward, get rid of the war, was defeat the germans. i sailed from lands end at the tip of england across to omaha beach, which was still... had been cleared by the time i got there a bit, but there were many soldiers in american uniform still lying in the sea face down. there were many armoured vehicles still in the water, and we had to push on from there into france and defeat them. i was with the artillery all the way. many battles on the way. and it was only when we got into the german occupied

and germany itself that we began to encounter possible war crimes. as nazi atrocities were uncovered, you were transferred to a newly created war crimes branch of the army to gather evidence of nazi brutality and apprehend the war criminals. you entered the death camps, like buchenwald, for instance, and you've described how you saw scenes from hell. just describe to us what you saw. i can describe it to you quite vividly, because the recollection is very firm in my mind, but at the same time, you'll never understand what it was like, because the rational human mind can't quite grasp it. coming into buchenwald, for example... ..dead bodies lying all on the ground, you can't tell if they're dead or alive. skeletons dressed in just rags, which had at one time been part

of their work uniform, with a triangle indicating that they were jews or homosexuals or communists or whatever. and everybody�*s running in different directions. the ss are trying to run out. a scene like a pile of rubbish the size of this room, and in it, inmates... ..grovelling like rats for a bite of food and just picking out garbage and sticking it into their mouths. the smell of foul flesh burning, crematoria with stacks of human bodies looking like bones stacked one on top of the other while they are shovelled into the crematorium and then turned into ashes. and the fat is used for making soap and the ashes are used as fertiliser.

the ss is running out, occasionally getting caught and beaten to death by the inmates that were still able to do anything about it. and when i wrote somewhere that i had peered into hell, i think hell would be paradise compared to what i saw. are the memories of what you saw still very vivid for you? yes. i don't like to talk about it much because i have difficulty controlling my own emotions. in 1945, you left the us army, returned to new york and prepared to practise law. but shortly after that, you were recruited for the nuremberg war crimes trials. the international military tribunal prosecution against the likes of hermann goering and other leading nazis were already in progress. what was your reaction when you were asked to be part of that process? when the war was over, i came back — along with ten million other soldiers — looking for a job. i had graduated from

the harvard law school and i had passed the bar, but i had no clients ofany kind. and i was pleased to get a telegram from the pentagon, inviting me to come to the pentagon. they want to talk to me. and i arrived there, and they said, "dear, sir" — they had never called me sir before. they wanted me to go back to germany to help with war crimes trials. now, i had done that during the war days. the last several months in the war, as we occupied portions of germany and france that had been occupied, we ran into examples of crimes of all kinds. the most obvious ones, what we call the allied flyer cases. very little is known about that. flyers who had been shot down in german—held territory

were almost invariably beaten to death by the german mob. and that was part of our first war crimes cases. so i had that kind of experience with me when i left the army, and i took that back, then, to germany when i agreed, with some hesitation, to go back to germany and help with trials which were to follow the international military tribunal. why did you hesitate? was it because you didn't want to...? it's a horrible experience for anyone and germany was associated in my mind with atrocity and terrible crimes. i didn't want to go back to germany. this is horror glorified and there's nothing heroic about it at all. it's... it shows how human beings can be debased in time of war. so you did go back to germany and you scoured nazi offices and archives and trying to find evidence of the nazi atrocities by german doctors, officers, lawyers and judges and generals. it was quite all pervasive,

wasn't it, the people who were involved in the atrocities? well, the united states particularly felt that the international military tribunal trial against hermann goering wasjust a camera shot of a small sampling. and in order to really understand how a civilised country like germany could commit and tolerate the type of atrocities which were committed, you should understand the position of the doctors who performed medical experiments, the lawyers and judges who perverted the law, the ss murderers, of course, who did the actual killings, the industrialists who were working people to death. all of these... ..were specific groups, and so the united states said,

"let us take a sampling from each of these groups "to help us understand it." so i went to berlin with a team of about 50 people, scoured through all the archives, miles of nazi documents, to gather enough evidence to cover the broad spectrum of german society which was really basically responsible for the crimes. in previous interviews, you've described how in gathering witness testimonies, you did resort to duress — for instance, lining up villagers and threatening to shoot them if they lied. and, i mean, such methods now would amount to witness harassment of the most extreme order. well, perhaps it would, but it's only because the people who make allegations don't understand what war is about. if i bring a room of 20 people in together — this is actual case — and line them up and say, "i want you all to write out exactly what happened, "what your role was, what others did. "anybody who lies will be shot." now, how could you do a thing like that? you're threatening them, torture. what am i going to tell them? anybody who lies won't get his patty cake tonight? what do you want me to tell him? "please be honest.

"please confess that you're a murderer. "please do that. "i don't want to have to threaten you with anything." what are you talking about? there's a war going on. they'll kill you if they could. they were killing some of your buddies before. that's why they're standing there. so what am i going to do? i didn't shoot them, but i threatened to, and that's the only weapon i had. and if that be torture, then call me a torturer. so you became, then, the chief prosecutor for the united states in one case at nuremberg, the einsatzgruppen case, described by the associated press news agency as the biggest murder trial in history — 22 nazi war criminals who were part of these death squads, shooting more than a million people, most of them civilians. it was quite a responsibility for a young man — you were only 27 — to take. and, in fact, just before you talk to me about that, i just want to show you, this is you at the nuremberg...

that is the judge, leading judge michael musmanno of the superior court of pennsylvania. these are the defendants, 22 defendants, each one charged with mass murder. all of them pleaded not guilty. no—one ever showed any sign of remorse whatsoever. and i remember very well what i said — "may it "please your honours, it is with sorrow and with "hope that we here disclose murder of over a million "innocent and defenceless men, women and children..." vengeance is not our goal, nor do we seek merely a just retribution. we ask this court to affirm by international penal action man's right to live in peace and dignity, regardless of his race or creed. the case we present is a plea of humanity to law. "that these men wrote

the darkest page in human "history." people were murdered because they didn't share the race, the colour and the ideology of their executioners. i thought it was horrible then, i think it's horrible now. and i appealed for a rule of law which would, in future, protect people from that type of atrocity. when you look at that picture of you there, i mean, 27 years of age, chief prosecutor in the nuremberg process. that was an accident that i was the chief prosecutor. one of my researchers, i had about 50 of them in berlin, came upon the daily reports from the front of these special extermination squads whose job it was to kill — without pity or remorse — every singlejewish man, woman and child they could lay their hands on, including

the same for gypsies and any other perceived or suspected opponents of the reich. no such trial had been planned. i flew down to berlin, from berlin to nuremberg, to talk to general telford taylor, who was the judge, and he said, "we can't put on this trial now "because all the lawyers are already assigned, "the trials are in process. "the pentagon hasn't approved it. "i doubt if they will approve it." and i said, "i have here in my hand," i had samples, "mass murder on a scale never before seen in human history. "you can't let these guys go." he said, "can you do it in addition to your other work?" and i said, "sure." and i did. and i rested my case in two days. you said you wanted to prosecute the officers. you weren't as interested in the foot soldiers. you wanted to get the educated officers amongst them. it's very hard for the public today to understand the special extermination squads — einsatzgruppen, the german word means "action groups" — were 3,000 men. i selected, of the 3,000,

all of whom are complicit in mass murder, i selected those based on several factors. first of all, we had to have them in captivity. if you've got the evidence and you haven't got the prisoner, you got nothing. i wanted a list of everybody who was an einsatzgruppen member from all of our intelligence sources sent down immediately to nuremberg. i went over the list. i picked those of the highest rank and then checked out their background from their nazi party records, which we captured in berlin. those who had doctor degrees and were generals, they got priority. and from these, i picked out 22. why not 28? because we only had 22 seats in the dock. is that absurd? of course it's absurd. there were only 22 seats in the dock for hermann goering and company, so you have a selection of a sampling. that's all it is. of the 22 who you tried in the einsatzgruppen case, about a dozen were given death sentences. four were actually executed. the others remained in prison,

but only for a few years until an agreement, a deal was made between the american and german governments and they were released. so it wasn't... it wasn't quite... you can't call it a success, can you? it wasn't that formalistic. the political atmosphere had changed. general george patton, who was my commander, had made a speech in london to a women's group before the war was over, in which he said, "we have fought the wrong enemy. "we should not have been fighting the germans, "we should have been fighting the russians." while the war was on, american general. americans are still being killed in battle and the russians are being slaughtered. indicative of the change of political scene in the united states, the conservative group was saying, "what are we getting involved in this, "these crimes against the germans? "we need the germans." the british were particularly keen about not executing some

of the german generals that the british army wanted. so the political pressure was such, together with some feeling of amnesty for humanitarian considerations, they stopped the trials, they released the people who were there and then began to rehire people like wernher von braun, who knew about rockets, and some of his deputies who came to the united states as they had the new rocket science. so when the trial that you presided over at nuremberg as chief prosecutor was hailed as a success, as some did at the time, it can't really be described as that if some of those who were found guilty were subsequently released. i was, of course, disappointed, but i never anticipated or tried to do justice in the broad sense of holding every criminal accountable. it would have been a practical impossibility. so i was careful in the selection of having a man in custody, having a high rank, having good education, having absolute proof beyond any doubt of his guilt.

i had his report top secret to his commanders, saying how many people were executed. they were not quite accurate. they exaggerated the body count to get, show more, how more they killed. and then they said it was against our will, superior orders. baloney! was that baloney, because sometimes aren't people just... it was absolute baloney. they were of course ordered to kill all thejews, but they did it with such enthusiasm. they wanted to brag about how many they killed. you said the lessons of nuremberg for you, you said, "i learned that if we did not devote ourselves "to developing effective world law, "the same cruel mentality that made the holocaust possible "might one day destroy the entire human race." so today, so many years later, here you are in your 98th year, and you look around you at the world, the conflicts that have happened in recent times. what's your assessment? have we made progress? we have made progress. we have not learned

the lesson of nuremberg. we have made progress, i'll come back to it, but first, let me emphasise the fact i learned that war makes murderers, mass murderers, out of otherwise decent people. and it applies to all wars and all nationalities and i've seen it in all the wars. these are not wild animals who are out for blood. these are patriots who are trying to do their duty to protect either their religion or their nationality or their economic security. these are the three major causes. we have not learned that you cannot kill an ideology with a gun. we still go at it with the same stupid approach of spending all of your assets on building weapons and more weapons that kill more people and depriving people of the things they need

to eliminate the fears which they have in their life. a man who is desperate because he has nojob and has no money, if the money spent on weapons could be spent on eliminating the cause of his discontent, he's not going to risk his life and go out and kill people the way they do today. so, you were very instrumental in the setting up of the international criminal court, which was established by the rome statute in 1998. do you think that has really helped prevent crimes against humanity, war crimes? do you think it's stopped these crimes being committed with impunity? it has helped, but not enough. certainly, the existence of laws prohibiting certain behaviour has some deterrent effect. but we have to bear in mind that, for centuries, we have glorified war—making. ever since david hit goliath in the head with a rock, we have glorified the parades, the marching. no politician appears without his flags flying on all sides and the bands going and marching. and i was a soldier and i... you know, they gave me all the battle stars

and they gave me all the decorations and all that stuff. we've got to reverse those thousands of years of practice because the world has changed. we're not throwing rocks anymore. we're going to kill everybody from cyberspace. we can cut off the electrical grid of any city on the planet. are you all crazy? you're standing here watching it happen. the students don't have money to pay tuition, the refugees have no homes to go to. the old people are dying because they can't afford the medical care, and you're pouring billions of dollars every day into killing machines. what in your long life and career have you learned about the nature of evil and human beings�* capacity to commit the most unspeakable, horrific acts against their fellow human beings? well, i�*ve learned simply, this was very obvious, that people in

very high places, people of good education and high rank are quite competent into becoming mass murderers against any group that they think threatens either their nationality or their religion or their economic circumstance. i have seen that. these are not crimes committed by devils with horns. these are committed by educated, well—intentioned, patriotic people. but we have to change the hearts and minds of people so that they recognise that it�*s not cowardice to be ready to compromise and to be conciliatory and be compassionate when you�*re dealing with people who have other points of view. and i know that it takes courage not to be discouraged, but we have got to have that kind of courage because it�*s a tough job and it takes a long time and we�*ve got to begin in the cradle.

so this re—education of the human spirit and the human mind on a worldwide basis is the task before us, and we are doing it. look at the emancipation, with those limitations, of the black man. look at the emancipation of women. look at the change, the sex...approach. a man can marry a man, a man can become a woman. all of these unthinkable things are realities today. 25 years ago, they�*d have said, "you�*re out of your mind." and i say, don�*t give up. law is always better than war, and that�*s my firm conviction. no matter if you get a bad decision, law will always be better than a war, which is murderous and terrible. and the three ways of preventing it is, one, never give up, two, never give up, three... ..and then i hear the echo from the audience — never give up. ben ferencz, thank you very much indeed for coming on hardtalk. it�*s been a pleasure.

i hope that you all don�*t enjoy it, but think about it and act on it. thank you. hello. after the sunshine of yesterday, it is a good deal more cloudy out there today. rather grey skies in many parts of the uk. these are the weather fronts responsible. they�*ve pushed their way into the atlantic, but they�*re drawing in southerly winds. so even with that cloud, it probably feels a little bit milder. when you get the cloud breaks, it will feel very pleasant. certainly across eastern england, some hazy sunshine around and more breaks this afternoon, northern scotland, northern ireland. there will be a few showers here and still quite damp around some western coasts and hills. but in the sunny moments, we could see highs of around 17, particularly in northern ireland and also the north of scotland. but eastern england, be prepared.

some very high pollen levels to go with the hazy sunshine. an isolated shower can�*t be ruled out, but if they do, they�*ll fade away tonight. still lots of cloud around tonight and there will be some patchy light rain or drizzle, especially through southern scotland, england and wales, where it will be a reasonably mild night, chilliest through east anglia, where any clear skies could lead to some mist and fog patches. but for monday, a grey start, a bit damp in one or two areas. overall though, western parts of england and wales, we should see a bit more brightness compared with today, some sunshine breaking through what will often be extensive cloud. best of the sunshine eastern england. although down those north sea coasts, be prepared, there could be some sea fog rolling in as we go into the afternoon. temperatures will drop quite rapidly. highest of the temperatures, though, northern scotland again up to around 18 celsius, 64 fahrenheit. and through this week, well, the week ahead, high pressure dominates, but it�*s there in scandinavia. we�*re on the edge of it. so, we could still see a few showers come. and with a strengthening breeze coming in off the north sea, which at the moment is quite chilly, only around 7 to 9 celsius, around its lowest for the time of this season. it�*s going to feel quite cool at times along some

of those north sea coasts. a lot of mist, low cloud to begin with on tuesday morning. most of that will break up. but later on, we could see a bit more cloud with some showers drifting across southern parts of england and wales. with a strengthening breeze, it�*s going to feel chillier, in particular for england and wales. mildest weather to the west of scotland where it will again be on wednesday. once again on wednesday, we start with some extensive cloud — england, wales, northern ireland. chance of a few showers, particularly in the west. most will have a dry day, increasing amounts of sunshine, but still chilly down some of those eastern coasts and temperatures across scotland will drop a little bit relative to the start of the week. but overall, as i said, high pressure is in charge. other than a few showers across the south, many will have a dry week with the sunniest conditions in scotland.

live from london, this is bbc news. the un secretary general calls for a ceasefire in sudan, as nearly 70 people are killed in fighting between rival military factions. the leader of the nurses�* union in england says they�*re prepared to hold strikes until christmas unless more money is offered. appeals for calm after an indian former politician convicted of kidnapping is shot dead on television along with his brother. the building of new so—called smart motorways in england is being cancelled over safety concerns and costs. and an ancient symbol of scotland�*s monarchy known as the stone of destiny will travel to westminster abbey for the king�*s coronation.