voice-over: this is bbc news. we'll have the headlines and all the main news stories for you at the top of the hour, straight after this programme. welcome to hardtalk, i'm stephen sackur. west africa's the hell region has long faced enormous challenges, poor governance, extreme poverty and environmental degradation, to name but three —— sahel. but it also has a proud tradition of giving cultural riches to the world and my guest today is

baaba maal, a world—renowned musician whose roots lie in northern senegal. his voice, guitar and rhythms have won him worldwide acclaim over five decades. he sometimes labelled the voice of the matter margaret the sahel. but how much influence can that voice yield —— the sahel. baaba maal, welcome to hardtalk. baaba maal, welcome to hardtalk— baaba maal, welcome to | hardtalk._ it's baaba maal, welcome to - hardtalk._ it's great hardtalk. thank you. it's great to have you _ hardtalk. thank you. it's great to have you back _ hardtalk. thank you. it's great to have you back on _ hardtalk. thank you. it's great to have you back on this - to have you back on this hardcourt studio. —— hardtalk. you have a new album out, being, yourfirst

you have a new album out, being, your first for several years and i was interested to see the other day you describe yourself these days as an elder. does it mean your music is sort of changing as you gain more and more experience and wisdom? �* , ., more and more experience and wisdom? �*, ., . ., ., wisdom? it's not changing at all. it's wisdom? it's not changing at all- it'siust _ wisdom? it's not changing at all. it'sjust coming - wisdom? it's not changing at all. it'sjust coming to - wisdom? it's not changing at all. it'sjust coming to this i all. it's just coming to this natural way of playing music. maybe it's a kind of reflection of the first way i was writing songs, where i was much more relaxed. not under pressure, not in a hurry, just taking a lot of pleasure of being into a studio, sitting in the middle of a garden and picking up my guitar and playing music. and sometimes it comes naturally and this is what i was looking for in this album.— for in this album. you are a start of— for in this album. you are a start of world _ for in this album. you are a start of world music - for in this album. you are a start of world music and . for in this album. you are a| start of world music and you tour the world playing your music but would you say your music but would you say your music is still very much rooted in podor, your home town in northern senegal and the fishing community that you came

from and the very sort of local place that your music was founded in?— place that your music was founded in? yeah, it has its own place. _ founded in? yeah, it has its own place. my _ founded in? yeah, it has its own place, my region, - founded in? yeah, it has its own place, my region, into| founded in? yeah, it has its i own place, my region, into my music but notjust senegal where i come from, i think i can say from west africa first and then, open to the world because i think i am global citizen of the world and i do take a lot of influences by travelling, listening to all these kinds of music and meeting some other musicians, trying to understand where is this meeting point between what i have from my african cultural background and what they are giving to me. background and what they are giving to me-_ giving to me. how difficult is it to do the _ giving to me. how difficult is it to do the two _ giving to me. how difficult is it to do the two things - giving to me. how difficult is it to do the two things that l it to do the two things that you talk about a lot, one is on a tradition. you talk a lot about honouring your traditions. but you also, from

the late 70s and 80s, were very keen to innovate. using electronic music and collaborating with cutting—edge musicians far from your home in northern senegal so how difficult is it to do both at once? i difficult is it to do both at once? u, _, difficult is it to do both at once? _, �*, ., once? i can confirm it's not easy to _ once? i can confirm it's not easy to respect _ once? i can confirm it's not easy to respect these - once? i can confirm it's not easy to respect these two i easy to respect these two sides, but i promised my dad that i would write songs that would get rooted all of the traditional or the tradition or the histories of my communities where we come from. where we are heading and also, the responsibility of everyone of us in these communities because you can't be really, really very famous, very rich but at the same time you are one member of these communities and you have to play your role. but as a second place, i am someone who would love to travel, who is free, i am a nomadic person, evenin is free, i am a nomadic person, even in my music i want to

explore different fields of the music and to combine the two, i confess, is not easy but you just have to try to find the crossing point between the too. what you just said is very interesting. do you think being very successful and to put it bluntly quite rich and collaborating with famous people in the western music world like peter gabriel and mumford and sons and all the others you have worked with, does it in some senses make it more difficult? to remain rooted? ., more difficult? to remain rooted?— more difficult? to remain rooted? ., u, ., ~ rooted? yeah, it can make it very much — rooted? yeah, it can make it very much difficult, - rooted? yeah, it can make it very much difficult, but - rooted? yeah, it can make it very much difficult, but you | very much difficult, but you have to convince also these people, not you coming to them going to them, but then coming also to you. for example, i did convince mumford and sons that to come to see my festival, the blues of the river, and they were thrilled —— fears of all of the elements that cannot even help them to have new inspiration or musician that they can sit down with and play

music together. because in this part of africa, the music has still a lot of things to share with all these people who are trying to find new elements, new things to feel on their skin or on their bone when they want to write songs. but at the same time, i always say that my goal is to take these african music and to show it to the rest of the world, but is also their music and this music also can bring something to learn from it, something to share in their life and to find solutions of their problems. i'm delighted, baaba maal, that you mentioned the blues of the river festival which is sort of created. it takes place in podor, your home town in northern senegal which is quite remote. , ., northern senegal which is quite remote._ but - northern senegal which is quite l remote._ but many remote. very remote. but many --eole remote. very remote. but many people want — remote. very remote. but many people want to _ remote. very remote. but many people want to be _ remote. very remote. but many people want to be there - remote. very remote. but many people want to be there every . people want to be there every year. now, in your latest album

being, you have a track freak out which include some wonderful images of you being at the blues of the river festival in podor and i believe it is from a couple of years ago and what we would like to do is have everybody, have a listen, have a look for baaba maal to return to his own community. let's have a look at this. freak out by baaba maal plays. wonderful images there which i think it's what we're talking about, the marriage of tradition and modernity and the musicalfusions as well. tradition and modernity and the musical fusions as well. what really strikes me is the excitement of young people. does your music today still

excite the young people of your home? it excite the young people of your home? ., , �* �* , home? it does. and i'm very surprised- — home? it does. and i'm very surprised. but _ home? it does. and i'm very surprised. but at _ home? it does. and i'm very surprised. but at the - home? it does. and i'm very surprised. but at the same l surprised. but at the same time, i think these people, the young ones, have really, really are interested about the journey that i have been taking since a long time, trying to represent them in the rest of the world and bringing back something that can make the platform for them to discuss with me, to talk amongst themselves, to see the experiences and to know exactly what they want to do, what they have to do and they responsibility. if have to do and they responsibility.- have to do and they responsibility. have to do and they resonsibili . ._ responsibility. ifi may, there is a big difference _ responsibility. ifi may, there is a big difference growing i responsibility. ifi may, there is a big difference growing up in podor today from a new drop there because then, before from when you grow up then because then your music was the local culture and traditions but today i dare say the young people in your hometown have access through their phone and through the internet to cultures from all over the world, the cutting—edge music

from south africa, from the united states, from wherever they want to hear it, and i just wonder, because you reflect a lot on the meeting of social media, whether it is changing the sort of cultural context for young african kids? in this album, i'm saying that the social media is really a good thing for africa. it’s the social media is really a good thing for africa. it's a aood good thing for africa. it's a good thing? _ good thing for africa. it's a good thing? i _ good thing for africa. it's a good thing? i very - good thing for africa. it's a good thing? i very good i good thing for africa. it's a i good thing? i very good thing in some ways. _ good thing? i very good thing in some ways, very _ good thing? i very good thing in some ways, very good. - good thing? i very good thing i in some ways, very good. why? because it _ in some ways, very good. why? because it gives _ in some ways, very good. why? because it gives the _ because it gives the opportunity for people who never had voices or never get their chance to be connected to their chance to be connected to the rest of the world and also, to be connected to their people who went away, like immigrants. many of these young people just went to spain, for example, on boats because the desert, but by the time they are arriving on the other side of the planet, they are still connected to their families, to their communities. share connected to their families, to their communities.— their communities. are they? crosstalk. _ their communities. are they? crosstalk. they _ their communities. are they? crosstalk. they find - their communities. are they? crosstalk. they find those | crosstalk. they find those connections i cut? the crosstalk. they find those

connections i cut? the reason i cut, connections i cut? the reason i cut. they _ connections i cut? the reason i out. they have _ connections i cut? the reason i cut, they have the _ connections i cut? the reason i cut, they have the social - cut, they have the social media, every night when they finish work, they come and they get connected via whatsapp and these other things and try to see what's going on in their communities.— see what's going on in their communities. ., ,. , u, communities. the more sceptical art of communities. the more sceptical part of me _ communities. the more sceptical part of me would _ communities. the more sceptical part of me would think, - communities. the more sceptical part of me would think, you - part of me would think, you know, because, let us face it and we will talk more about it later, that where you are from, the sahel region, mauritania next door, these are places of real poverty where job opportunities are limited and where many young people on their phones, smartphones, are seeing aspirational lifestyles, economic opportunities in different parts of the world, as you've just said many of them then choose to act with their feet and they migrate and they try to find opportunity and wealth far, far away from their homeland. isn't the danger that unlike you, who always returns home, they will not return home?— not return home? yes, it's a dancer not return home? yes, it's a danger but _ not return home? yes, it's a danger but at _ not return home? yes, it's a danger but at the _ not return home? yes, it's a danger but at the same - not return home? yes, it's a| danger but at the same time, they are connect it and i can tell you there are many groups

of whatsapp are representing what used to happen in the villages before. families, friends, people who live in the same neighbourhood, they come in the middle of the village every night and they exchange ideas, news. and now, with the groups of whatsapp, family groups of whatsapp, family groups orfriendship groups of whatsapp, family groups or friendship groups or community groups make them be able to discuss about the destiny of their communities. evenif destiny of their communities. even if it's not easy for them to come back in the way they want to come back but they are very concerned about what's happening there, you know? they are big families. but at the same time, i'm saying in the song, we should be really colourful before very careful about what we put in the internet because —— careful that will be put in the intimate because our society is organised and everyone knows his face in the family in the community and if you have things to say, how to do to say it in a very respectable way to

the elders, to your parents, your dad, your mum, your uncles, but sometimes, people go away off and put things that should not be shared with the rest of the world. it cuts the harmony that exists in these african families or organisations, and that's the danger of the internet. we should use it in a positive way but we should be aware that it can sometimes destroy something that was established there. i’m that was established there. i'm sure ou that was established there. i'm sure you know _ that was established there. i'm sure you know better than either actually, africa is the place where regimes attempt to control and curb social media more than any other continent. i know that. and you live in senegal and your president macky sall has described social media as a cancer which determined to regulate. do you think your voice will make a difference in trying to persuade those who govern senegal not to replace and control the intellect? i senegal not to replace and control the intellect? controlthe intellect? i think the way we _ controlthe intellect? i think the way we need _ controlthe intellect? i think the way we need to -

controlthe intellect? i think the way we need to rise - controlthe intellect? i think the way we need to rise up | control the intellect? i think i the way we need to rise up our voices to say this is very good for africa, for the world, to get people to be connected. dictatorships and authoritarians around the world, in your region, they do not like a vehicle of information supply which they cannot control.— information supply which they cannot control. yeah, you know, it's an adjustment _ cannot control. yeah, you know, it's an adjustment of _ cannot control. yeah, you know, it's an adjustment of the - it's an adjustment of the vehicle of information from the internet, even the news would rise up about what is wrong. and what is right. i think many of governments in the world, especially in africa, are a little bit afraid about when they get told what to do and what not to do, but this has to change because everyone is concerned about the future of africa. everyone wants to bring their help to actually what we want to achieve. and i was saying in one of my interviews that all the leaders,

political, religious, instructional leaders, should listen more to the young people because they are the future. they are the ones who know what kind of future they want. and they have something by the internet to say what they want to say, you know? it's a way to listen to them. i to say, you know? it's a way to listen to them.— listen to them. i want to quote ou now listen to them. i want to quote you now words _ listen to them. i want to quote you now words that _ listen to them. i want to quote you now words that i _ listen to them. i want to quote you now words that i read - listen to them. i want to quote you now words that i read in i listen to them. i want to quote you now words that i read in a | you now words that i read in a music magazine profile of you where the reporter, a guy called kevin perry, he followed you back home as you were on a tour of villages in your home region in senegal, and he said this, he said my impression of baaba maal is that especially in the north of senegal, they see him as a prophet or something pretty much like that, it is crazy, said mr perry, crazy to see how much power baaba maal has but he usesit power baaba maal has but he uses it responsibly, more than a p0p uses it responsibly, more than a pop star. he is a statesman and ambassadorfor the a pop star. he is a statesman and ambassador for the full lonely people. do you feel that

immense reach, influence, power that you have over and within your people? i that you have over and within your people?— your people? i don't feel it like power- _ your people? i don't feel it like power. i— your people? i don't feel it like power. ijust _ your people? i don't feel it like power. ijust - - your people? i don't feel it like power. ijust - i'm i your people? i don't feel it like power. ijust - i'mjust like power. ijust — i'm just happy to know that the connection between me and my community, between me and the fulani people, for example, is notjust through fulani people, for example, is not just through the fulani people, for example, is notjust through the music — it's also to be involved since long time into what we call a process to arrive to development — especially sustainable living and all of that. ., �* sustainable living and all of that. , ., that. you've become quite an advocate- _ that. you've become quite an advocate- l— that. you've become quite an advocate. i mean, _ that. you've become quite an advocate. i mean, you've i that. you've become quite an l advocate. i mean, you've made that. you've become quite an i advocate. i mean, you've made a point over the last 20 years of immensing yourself in education, particularly of women and girls. you talk a lot about sustainable development, sustainable technologies. you even set up your own foundation, the nann—k foundation, the nann—k foundation, which is supposed to be working on finding new

techniques in farming and fishing to work with climate change to ensure that people can still make a livelihood. and to fight dessertification. i don't want to rain on your parade, baaba, but your foundation has been going on for six or seven years, but it doesn't mean to be making much difference. you yourself said of the sahel, "it is on its knees, brought low by conflict, hunger and disease." so despite your very best efforts and all your very best efforts and all your advocacy and activism, i'm not sure that you believe the husell had is going in the right direction.— husell had is going in the right direction. sahel is not auoin in right direction. sahel is not going in the _ right direction. sahel is not going in the right _ right direction. sahel is notj going in the right direction. and everyone knows that. and i'm ready to launch maybe another album between now and next year if some young musicians from all over the sahel, just to rise up our voices again to say — "hey, it's not over, all the

suffering on the sahel." because there is no education. there's a lot of violence. there's a lot of violence. there's a lot of violence. there's a lot of people who really are going away from their home town. and that's not something that should happen on this region. this beautiful region of the sahel that represents a lot, thousands of years for africa, to emancipate. but now it's suffering. we need to rise up again all our voices. in suffering. we need to rise up again all our voices.- again all our voices. in all honesty. _ again all our voices. in all honesty, does _ again all our voices. in all honesty, does it - again all our voices. in all honesty, does it make i again all our voices. in all i honesty, does it make much difference? you are appointed, i think right now it's about to be announced you're about to be appointed a new un goodwill ambassador, committing to tackling dessertification and environmental degradation, which is a huge issue in northern senegal, across the sahel region — one of the worst—affected places by climate change already. does being a un goodwill ambassador make any difference? it being a un goodwill ambassador make any difference?— make any difference? it will make any difference? it will make any difference? it will make a difference. - make any difference? it will make a difference. it - make any difference? it will make a difference. it will, l make a difference. it will, because with nann—k — i'm just

operating now in my country, senegal — i have a special love of senegal, and maybe moritane, where we have many sections of nann—k. but being a goodwill ambassador will help open many more doors when i work in niger or some other country, to count on different musicians who are really ready. i think most of these musicians will come from this part of africa. really want to make a change. we really want to participate, to bring back peace. because we all know that, without peace, we can't talk about development. we can't talk about sustainable living. we can't talk about africa being called the future — to make it a reality. and we have to to do something. a reality. and we have to to do something-— something. well, i'm going to sto ou something. well, i'm going to stop you there. _ something. well, i'm going to stop you there. because - something. well, i'm going to stop you there. because you | stop you there. because you just talked about making a better future for africa. and one thing — one collaboration that intrigues me that you've

been involved in in recent years is working on the soundtrack, the music, for the black panther movie series — black panther movie series — black panther, of course, the first, and wakanda forever, the second. and people talk about it as a sort of vision of afro—futurism — this kingdom in africa which is the most advanced in technology, sort of hidden away from the world but which is, in its own way, building a new future for africa. let'sjust have building a new future for africa. let's just have a listen and a look at some images with your sounds. and then i want to talk to you about it.

that soundtrack is from the beginning of wakanda forever. it's actually a funeral scene in this kingdom. you play a bit part, as well as writing the soundtrack and singing. laughs there you are. laughs there ou are. ., laughs there ouare. ., there you are. yeah. there you are. uh-huh. _ there you are. yeah. there you are. uh-huh. i— there you are. yeah. there you are. uh-huh. ijust— there you are. yeah. there you are. uh-huh. ijust wonder- there you are. yeah. there you l are. uh-huh. ijust wonder what are. uh-huh. i 'ust wonder what messaue are. uh-huh. i 'ust wonder what message this — are. uh-huh. ijust wonder what message this really _ are. uh-huh. ijust wonder what message this really has - are. uh-huh. ijust wonder what message this really has for - message this really has for africa. because this is fantasy. in the end, this is a sort of magical kingdom with the greatest sort of technological advances. but if i'm a young african watching this black panther series today, do i see this as a sort of realistic, optimistic vision that could be my future? 0r of realistic, optimistic vision that could be my future? or do i see it as simply fantasy that bears no relation to the life i live today? i bears no relation to the life i live today?— live today? i can say this is what we — live today? i can say this is what we think _ live today? i can say this is what we think will - live today? i can say this is what we think will be - live today? i can say this is| what we think will be africa live today? i can say this is i what we think will be africa in the future. what we think will be africa in the future-— what we think will be africa in the future.- yeah. i

the future. really? yeah. because _ the future. really? yeah. because i— the future. really? yeah. because i can _ the future. really? yeah. because i can see - the future. really? yeah. because i can see in - the future. really? yeah. because i can see in the i the future. really? yeah. - because i can see in the movie all the respect to the clothes, the jewelries, all the respect to the clothes, thejewelries, the all the respect to the clothes, the jewelries, the tattoos, all the respect to the clothes, thejewelries, the tattoos, the things which mean — and the story itself, from the first black panther to this one, where we're celebrating chadwick, we have many, many stories like that. and those storytellers can bring a lot of them on the table for cinema in africa just to explore it. but at the same time, what's really, really good — and that's the aspiration of the young people in africa — is the access to technology. and to resolve their problem for technology —— through technology. everyone is fascinated by technology. but technology. _ fascinated by technology. but technology. in _ fascinated by technology. but technology, in itself, can't solve africa's problems. no. from the — solve africa's problems. no. from the very _ solve africa's problems. ila from the very beginning of solve africa's problems. ila. from the very beginning of this interview, i've alluded to governance issues in africa. yeah. �* ., ., , yeah. i've got to ask you this question _ yeah. i've got to ask you this question before _ yeah. i've got to ask you this question before we _ yeah. i've got to ask you this question before we end. - yeah. i've got to ask you this question before we end. 11 i question before we end. 11 years ago, i had you in the hardtalk studio. we spoke then about whether you would translate the influence you have in your region, the sahel, and across africa — whether you would one day translate it into

politics in your home country, senegal. at that time, you said to me, "maybe one day. it's not my decision yet, but i'm always going to use my voice to tell the truth and help my people move forward." what about now? is now the time? i’m move forward.�* what about now? is now the time?— is now the time? i'm still in that way- — is now the time? i'm still in that way. maybe _ is now the time? i'm still in that way. maybe it - is now the time? i'm still in that way. maybe it can - is now the time? i'm still in i that way. maybe it can change, i can twist it a little bit to what you are talking about and to be much more involved. you have a home country, senegal, ruled by a president who is repressing his people. there are legal challenges against the main 0pposition leader which may mean he may never be able to run against the current president. i don't know what's going to happen in the next months to come. bare going to happen in the next months to come.— months to come. are you prepared _ months to come. are you prepared to _ months to come. are you prepared to use - months to come. are you prepared to use your i months to come. are you | prepared to use your voice months to come. are you i prepared to use your voice in an overt political way, to speak out against what's happening in senegal today? i will, when it gets clear in my

mind what everyone's attempting to do, i will say my opinion. i have an opinion on howl to do, i will say my opinion. i have an opinion on how i want this country to be ruled and what's the voice that people can apply to this country to be ruled. ~ �* can apply to this country to be ruled. . �* ., ., ., ruled. we're almost out of time. ruled. we're almost out of time- but _ ruled. we're almost out of time. but do _ ruled. we're almost out of time. but do you - ruled. we're almost out of time. but do you think- ruled. we're almost out ofj time. but do you think you could mix music and politics in that way? could you really enter politics and still reach your fan base as a musician? enter politics and still reach yourfan base as a musician? i your fan base as a musician? i think it's a big choice to take. ~ think it's a big choice to take-- i - think it's a big choice to take.- i think- think it's a big choice to take.- i think i'm| think it's a big choice to - take.- i think i'm much take. mmm. ithink i'm much more comfortable _ take. mmm. ithink i'm much more comfortable where - take. mmm. ithink i'm much more comfortable where i i take. mmm. ithink i'm muchj more comfortable where i am right now, and trying to be more involved about saying much better, again, the truth to the leaders of what we think they should do. i have my opinion, and. ., ., ., , ~ and. you would not seek leadership _ and. you would not seek leadership yourself? i and. you would not seekj leadership yourself? no, and. you would not seek i leadership yourself? no, not et. leadership yourself? no, not yet- we're — leadership yourself? no, not yet. we're back _ leadership yourself? no, not yet. we're back to _ leadership yourself? no, not yet. we're back to "not - leadership yourself? no, not yet. we're back to "not yet" | yet. we're back to "not yet" laughs _ laughs we're almost out of time, baaba. we did want to end — because i think it would be a very fitting ending — with you picking up your guitar and

playing us out with a tune that you havejust playing us out with a tune that you have just written. playing us out with a tune that you havejust written. so if you havejust written. so if you wouldn't mind, given that you've explained just how much the music still matters to you in your life and your campaigning work, let's play out on a tune.— out on a tune. the tune is lekke- — it means "please. " it means "please." let's plant trees to tackle desertification.

hello. it was a drier weekend for many. still quite a bit of cloud around, but in the sunshine we saw temperatures reached just about 19 degrees celsius in northern ireland. that's the warmest day of the year so far. and we could see the high teens again during the day on monday, the start of the week, certainly a little warmer with some sunshine. and on the whole, it's a drier week ahead, but there will be some showers around. and as this high pressurejust drifts a little bit further northwards, we introduce more isobars, tightly packed lines here, stronger winds and one or two showers as well. and that keen easterly wind coming off the chilly north sea will be noticeable, particularly across the eastern half of the country. but as we go through the remainder of the night, it's low cloud, mist and fog with generally light winds and a few showers here and there. so largely frost free,

just a little bit chilly where we keep the clear skies and they could, as i say, could well be some fog around first thing on monday morning with some fog over the hills as well as that. so generally quite leaden skies, but brightening — the april sunshine strong now, pushing the showers away, breaking the cloud up, butjust enough still for the odd shower here and there. but where we see the lengthy spells of sunshine, 17 or 18 on the cards, again, perhaps central and eastern areas up towards northern scotland, northern ireland once again. but as we go through the evening and overnight, we start to pick up a bit more of an easterly breeze, as you can see, coming off the north sea, just ushering in some lower clouds, some sea air and fret on the east coast and foggy conditions around first thing on tuesday morning under this slack ridge of high pressure in the north. and it's the north, scotland, northern ireland, where we keep that high pressure for longest. in the south, we've got this little weather front starting to make its way across from the low countries to increase the risk of cloud on tuesday showers on wednesday, but it's that keen north wind, sorry, that keen east wind coming off the north sea that we are going to notice because at this time

of year our sea temperatures are about as low as they get. so while inland, we'll see temperatures getting up into the mid possibly high teens, you can seejust on the coast, they'll be pegged back because of those cold waters of the north sea. into wednesday, we've still got these tightly packed bars, brisk winds pushing in, a few showers as well. and that risk continues, particularly across the southern half of england, wales through the rest of the week. so after warmish start, still a lot of dry weather, but temperatures just tapering off a little. more online.

live from london, this is bbc news. i'm sally bundock. vigils are held for the four people killed in a mass shooting at a 16th birthday party in alabama. four birthday party in alabama. lives were lost in a tragic four lives were lost in a tragic event that occurred here in dadeville. fighting between rival armed factions in sudan continues to spread with 97 people killed and hundreds injured this weekend. we have a special report from inside myanmar, where political activists tell the bbc they will never accept the country's dictatorship following a military coup two years ago. and elon musk�*s spacex gets the all—clear to launch its mammoth rocket starship as early as today.