good morning, it's the national phone in. and we are talking about the grand national. this morning: were grand national protests 0k? what do you think, as a casual viewer, as so many of us are, of the iconic race? it's the biggest horse racing event of the year. the one many of us follow and put a bet on even if we never normally watch the sport. but is it a piece of enthralling sporting theatre? or exploiting animals purely

for our entertainment and putting them in danger? moments after the race started after an almost 15 minute delay, hill sixteen fell at the first hurdle and died — the third horse across the three day festival. his trainer says the protests made him hyper. didn't make it easy for any old horses, and we saw what happened. the rspca says we must review the circumstances of each of the sad deaths at aintree, so that we never again exit a festival of racing with three dead horses. but lucinda russell, the trainer of the race's winning horse told five live that "the safest place for a horse to be is on the racecourse." your thoughts on this please — do the protesters have a point

or were they wrong? we're on five live, bbc news, bbc two, iplayer and bbc sounds. and here is the news. the trainer of a horse that died during the grand national has blamed the incident on delays caused by protesters. the start of the race was held back for m minutes after activists got on the track. the campaign group, animal rising, says their actions were aimed at preventing horses dying. rishi sunak will criticise negative attitudes to maths in a speech later. he's setting up a panel of experts to look at how to make it compulsory for all students in england to study the subject in some form until they're 18. labour says the plan won't work

without more teachers. research has found that air pollution causes harm to people at all stages of life. scientists at imperial college london looked at more than 35,000 studies over the past decade. they suggest certain particles can cause miscarriages, reduce sperm count and stunt lung growth in children. the japanese company sega has bought the firm behind angry birds. the deal to buy rovio is worth £625 million. it will be so interesting to hear what you think about this. it's an iconic event, the grand national. huge and enduring international appeal, bringing pleasure to millions. these are the arguments. there is always a big family occasion in our house, growing up,

dad would go down to the bookies, a long time ago, and put on a flutter for all of us, there was a flutter of excitement when we woke up on saturday, grand national day, once a year. extraordinary. something mad, just as a kid, watching something mad and marvellous, exhilarating stampede twice round the course. 0ver stampede twice round the course. over the years, of course, views have changed, times have changed. to be fair, the race has very much changed. it is so much safer now. what do you make of saturday's protests? a total of 118 people were arrested on saturday, disrupted by animal rising. we saw hill sixteen falling at the first, a sickening sight, the black screens and another black day for racing. some say that the mayhem caused the chaos, caused

the mayhem caused the chaos, caused the death, because the problems. they blame the activists. but we did see another magnificent equine being sacrificed, they argue, merely for human entertainment. there are calls for the british horse racing association to conduct an urgent review, so that we never again exit a festival of racing with three dead horses. not from animal rising, not from what some people would describe as a subversive animal rights organisation, some mob, or vegan fanatics, as the mail on sunday refer to them, it came from the good guys, the bighearted representatives of a nation of animal lovers, the calls came from the rspca. the british horse racing association, strong statement as well. they said

love and respect for horses is at the heart of everything we do. nobody will be affected by this news more than the trainers, owners and stable staff who provide them with first class care and attention to their lives. equine kings and queens all their lives. so, how does it look to you, perhaps, the once a year viewer? look to you, perhaps, the once a yearviewer? perhaps look to you, perhaps, the once a year viewer? perhaps you can't be bothered with it, but i am sure you will have strong views as well. sandy thompson is hill sixteen�*s trainer, thanks for coming on. and ben newman is a spokesperson for animal rising. hi, ben? you all right? terry in aberdeenshire, coming up, chloe and swindon coming up. and it could be you. call me on 08085 909693, text 85058.

ben, my condolences, losing your horse, hill sixteen? h0. ben, my condolences, losing your horse, hill sixteen?— horse, hill sixteen? no, sorry, sandy lost— horse, hill sixteen? no, sorry, sandy lost his _ horse, hill sixteen? no, sorry, sandy lost his horse. _ horse, hill sixteen? no, sorry, sandy lost his horse. sorry, - horse, hill sixteen? no, sorry, i sandy lost his horse. sorry, then it's a spokesperson _ sandy lost his horse. sorry, then it's a spokesperson for— sandy lost his horse. sorry, then it's a spokesperson for animal i it's a spokesperson for animal rising. slight confusion. tell me about hill sixteen and his personality?— about hill sixteen and his ersonali ? , , , personality? yes, we probably bought him the sails — personality? yes, we probably bought him the sails about _ personality? yes, we probably bought him the sails about a _ personality? yes, we probably bought him the sails about a couple - personality? yes, we probably bought him the sails about a couple of - him the sails about a couple of years— him the sails about a couple of years ago. _ him the sails about a couple of years ago, had been underperforming, he had _ years ago, had been underperforming, he had come _ years ago, had been underperforming, he had come to us 18 months ago, and he had come to us 18 months ago, and he was _ he had come to us 18 months ago, and he was second in a race over the aintree — he was second in a race over the aintree fences. the owner's dream was always— aintree fences. the owner's dream was always to run him in the grand nationah _ was always to run him in the grand national. and that has been the plan all season _ national. and that has been the plan all season. so it was a great thrill for everybody to get the horse to the race — for everybody to get the horse to the race. there are a lot of hoops to the race. there are a lot of hoops tojump _ the race. there are a lot of hoops tojump through, continual vetting,

to jump through, continual vetting, three _ tojump through, continual vetting, three stages of vetting, over six weeks. — three stages of vetting, over six weeks, before your horse is allowed to run _ weeks, before your horse is allowed to run there — weeks, before your horse is allowed to run. there is fairly stringent qualifying _ to run. there is fairly stringent qualifying procedures. we were delighted to get our horse there and he had _ delighted to get our horse there and he had shown form and had a good chance _ he had shown form and had a good chance of— he had shown form and had a good chance of running a huge race. horse lovers and horse _ chance of running a huge race. horse lovers and horse owners, _ chance of running a huge race. horse lovers and horse owners, they - chance of running a huge race. horse lovers and horse owners, they often | lovers and horse owners, they often talk about the equine personality, what the horse is like. what was his essence? ihis what the horse is like. what was his essence? , , , . what the horse is like. what was his essence? , ,, . ., essence? his essence was that he was 'ust a essence? his essence was that he was just a lovely. — essence? his essence was that he was just a lovely. big _ essence? his essence was that he was just a lovely, big horse. _ essence? his essence was that he was just a lovely, big horse. he _ essence? his essence was that he was just a lovely, big horse. he liked - just a lovely, big horse. he liked to pull— just a lovely, big horse. he liked to pull hard on the gallops, take the mickey a bit. but he wasjust a bil the mickey a bit. but he wasjust a big gentle — the mickey a bit. but he wasjust a big gentle giant. and, you know, jumped _ big gentle giant. and, you know, jumped really well, did his work, loved _ jumped really well, did his work, loved his— jumped really well, did his work, loved his carrots. wasjust a lovely horse _ loved his carrots. wasjust a lovely horse. he— loved his carrots. was 'ust a lovely horse. �* , ,, �* , .,

horse. as hill sixteen's trainer, what was _ horse. as hill sixteen's trainer, what was it _ horse. as hill sixteen's trainer, what was it like _ horse. as hill sixteen's trainer, what was it like when _ horse. as hill sixteen's trainer, what was it like when you - horse. as hill sixteen's trainer, i what was it like when you realised that the worst had happened? how did you feel, emotionally? i that the worst had happened? how did you feel, emotionally?— you feel, emotionally? i don't think ou can you feel, emotionally? i don't think you can put — you feel, emotionally? i don't think you can put it _ you feel, emotionally? i don't think you can put it into _ you feel, emotionally? i don't think you can put it into words. _ you feel, emotionally? i don't think you can put it into words. i- you can put it into words. i realised _ you can put it into words. i realised he didn't come round the first time, — realised he didn't come round the first time, then i saw the screens up first time, then i saw the screens up at _ first time, then i saw the screens up at the — first time, then i saw the screens up at the first fence. i got down there _ up at the first fence. i got down there as — up at the first fence. i got down there as quickly as possible. the only blessing was that he died instantly. obviously i went in and, yes, the _ instantly. obviously i went in and, yes, the people were great. the screens— yes, the people were great. the screens were up and ijust had a few words _ screens were up and ijust had a few words with— screens were up and ijust had a few words with him. screens were up and i 'ust had a few words with himh screens were up and i 'ust had a few| words with himh it words with him. what did you say? it ma seem words with him. what did you say? it may seem sentimental _ words with him. what did you say? it may seem sentimental or— words with him. what did you say? it may seem sentimental or stupid. - words with him. what did you say? it| may seem sentimental or stupid. just may seem sentimental or stupid. just that i_ may seem sentimental or stupid. just that i was— may seem sentimental or stupid. just that i was so— may seem sentimental or stupid. just that i was so sorry for him, thanking _ that i was so sorry for him, thanking him for everything he had done for— thanking him for everything he had done for us. it thanking him for everything he had done for us— done for us. it didn't sound sentimental _ done for us. it didn't sound sentimental or— done for us. it didn't sound sentimental or stupid - done for us. it didn't sound sentimental or stupid at. done for us. it didn't sound | sentimental or stupid at all, done for us. it didn't sound - sentimental or stupid at all, what a moment that was.— moment that was. yes, looking back on it, ou moment that was. yes, looking back on it. you know. _ moment that was. yes, looking back on it, you know, having _ moment that was. yes, looking back on it, you know, having a _ moment that was. yes, looking back on it, you know, having a little - on it, you know, having a little shudder—

on it, you know, having a little shudder now. nobody wants that to happen— shudder now. nobody wants that to happen to _ shudder now. nobody wants that to happen to the horse. but that is what _ happen to the horse. but that is what they— happen to the horse. but that is what they are bred to do, what they love doing — what they are bred to do, what they love doing. they wouldn'tjump what they are bred to do, what they love doing. they wouldn't jump these fences— love doing. they wouldn't jump these fences if— love doing. they wouldn't jump these fences if they didn't want to. and it was— fences if they didn't want to. and it was probably his over exuberance that did _ it was probably his over exuberance that did for— it was probably his over exuberance that did for him. because he took off far— that did for him. because he took off far too — that did for him. because he took off far too far away from the fence. it's off far too far away from the fence. it's what _ off far too far away from the fence. it's what they want to do, they were bred for it? terry, chloe and joe in north london. terry in aberdeenshire, are you there? lam. i am. you have heard how devastated sand is, i am. you have heard how devastated sandy is. it — i am. you have heard how devastated sandy is. it was _ i am. you have heard how devastated sandy is, it was devastating, - sandy is, it was devastating, hearing the last words, thank you for everything you have done for us. and you have heard him saying that they love doing it and they are bred for it. what would you say directly to sandy? taste for it. what would you say directly to sand ? ~ ., ,, ., ., ~' to sandy? we all know, if you work with animals. _ to sandy? we all know, if you work with animals, that _ to sandy? we all know, if you work with animals, that animals - to sandy? we all know, if you work with animals, that animals can - with animals, that animals can be habituated —

with animals, that animals can be habituated into— with animals, that animals can be habituated into doing _ with animals, that animals can be habituated into doing things - with animals, that animals can be habituated into doing things in. with animals, that animals can be habituated into doing things in a i habituated into doing things in a particular— habituated into doing things in a particular way _ habituated into doing things in a particular way. it's _ habituated into doing things in a particular way. it's a _ habituated into doing things in a particular way. it's a natural- particular way. it's a natural instinct— particular way. it's a natural instinct for— particular way. it's a natural instinct for horses _ particular way. it's a natural instinct for horses to - particular way. it's a natural instinct for horses to run - particular way. it's a natural instinct for horses to run inl particular way. it's a naturali instinct for horses to run in a group, — instinct for horses to run in a group, because— instinct for horses to run in a group, because they - instinct for horses to run in a group, because they are - instinct for horses to run in a| group, because they are prey animals _ group, because they are prey animals. they— group, because they are prey animals. they understand - group, because they are preyl animals. they understand that group, because they are prey - animals. they understand that their safety— animals. they understand that their safety is _ animals. they understand that their safety is in — animals. they understand that their safety is in numbers. _ animals. they understand that their safety is in numbers. so _ animals. they understand that their safety is in numbers. so if- animals. they understand that their safety is in numbers. so if they- animals. they understand that their safety is in numbers. so if they arei safety is in numbers. so if they are trained _ safety is in numbers. so if they are trained to— safety is in numbers. so if they are trained to run. _ safety is in numbers. so if they are trained to run, they— safety is in numbers. so if they are trained to run, they are _ safety is in numbers. so if they are trained to run, they are going - safety is in numbers. so if they are| trained to run, they are going along with their— trained to run, they are going along with their instincts. _ trained to run, they are going along with their instincts. and _ trained to run, they are going along with their instincts. and people - trained to run, they are going along with their instincts. and people say| with their instincts. and people say the horse _ with their instincts. and people say the horse has — with their instincts. and people say the horse has got _ with their instincts. and people say the horse has got no _ with their instincts. and people say the horse has got nojockey- with their instincts. and people say the horse has got nojockey on - with their instincts. and people say the horse has got nojockey on but| the horse has got nojockey on but it is still— the horse has got nojockey on but it is still running, _ the horse has got nojockey on but it is still running, of— the horse has got nojockey on but it is still running, of course - the horse has got nojockey on but it is still running, of course it - it is still running, of course it is, it— it is still running, of course it is, it is— it is still running, of course it is, it is keeping _ it is still running, of course it is, it is keeping with - it is still running, of course it is, it is keeping with its - it is still running, of course it is, it is keeping with its palsl is, it is keeping with its pals because _ is, it is keeping with its pals because of— is, it is keeping with its pals because of its _ is, it is keeping with its pals because of its instinct. - is, it is keeping with its pals because of its instinct. for. because of its instinct. for thousands— because of its instinct. for thousands of— because of its instinct. for thousands of years, - because of its instinct. for thousands of years, that l because of its instinct. for. thousands of years, that has because of its instinct. for- thousands of years, that has been that there — thousands of years, that has been that there is — thousands of years, that has been that there is safety _ thousands of years, that has been that there is safety in _ thousands of years, that has been that there is safety in numbers. . thousands of years, that has beenl that there is safety in numbers. so i'm that there is safety in numbers. so i'm very— that there is safety in numbers. so i'm very sorry— that there is safety in numbers. so i'm very sorry for— that there is safety in numbers. so i'm very sorry for anyone _ that there is safety in numbers. so i'm very sorry for anyone who - that there is safety in numbers. so| i'm very sorry for anyone who loses an aninral. — i'm very sorry for anyone who loses an animal, whether— i'm very sorry for anyone who loses an animal, whether it _ i'm very sorry for anyone who loses an animal, whether it is— i'm very sorry for anyone who loses an animal, whether it is sport, - i'm very sorry for anyone who loses an animal, whether it is sport, a i an animal, whether it is sport, a pet or— an animal, whether it is sport, a pet or whatever, _ an animal, whether it is sport, a pet or whatever, something - an animal, whether it is sport, a| pet or whatever, something they an animal, whether it is sport, a - pet or whatever, something they have worked _ pet or whatever, something they have worked with _ pet or whatever, something they have worked with and _ pet or whatever, something they have worked with and got _ pet or whatever, something they have worked with and got used _ pet or whatever, something they have worked with and got used to. - pet or whatever, something they have worked with and got used to. but - worked with and got used to. but racehorses — worked with and got used to. but racehorses are _ worked with and got used to. but racehorses are there _ worked with and got used to. but racehorses are there for - worked with and got used to. but racehorses are there for a - worked with and got used to. buti racehorses are there for a reason. if racehorses are there for a reason. if their— racehorses are there for a reason. if theirtemperament_ racehorses are there for a reason. if their temperament becomes - racehorses are there for a reason. i if their temperament becomes bad because _ if their temperament becomes bad because they — if their temperament becomes bad because they are _ if their temperament becomes bad because they are not _ if their temperament becomes bad because they are not happy- if their temperament becomes bad because they are not happy with i because they are not happy with their— because they are not happy with theirioh, — because they are not happy with theirioh, or— because they are not happy with theirioh, or if— because they are not happy with theirjob, or if they _ because they are not happy with theirjob, or if they become - theirjob, or if they become unsound, _ theirjob, or if they become unsound, they— theirjob, or if they become unsound, they will- theirjob, or if they become unsound, they will not - theirjob, or if they become unsound, they will not be l theirjob, or if they become - unsound, they will not be staying there. _ unsound, they will not be staying there. no — unsound, they will not be staying there, no matter— unsound, they will not be staying there, no matter how— unsound, they will not be staying there, no matter how much - unsound, they will not be staying i there, no matter how much people care for— there, no matter how much people care for them _ there, no matter how much people care for them. often _ there, no matter how much people care for them. often they- there, no matter how much people care for them. often they will- there, no matter how much people care for them. often they will try l care for them. often they will try to find _ care for them. often they will try to find them _ care for them. often they will try to find them other— care for them. often they will try to find them otherjobs, - care for them. often they will try to find them otherjobs, and - to find them otherjobs, and that does _ to find them otherjobs, and that does happen_ to find them otherjobs, and that does happen more _ to find them otherjobs, and that does happen more now. - to find them otherjobs, and that does happen more now. there i to find them otherjobs, and that. does happen more now. there are charity— does happen more now. there are charity set — does happen more now. there are charity set up _ does happen more now. there are charity set up to _ does happen more now. there are charity set up to try— does happen more now. there are

charity set up to try to _ does happen more now. there are charity set up to try to find - charity set up to try to find racehorses _ charity set up to try to find racehorses that _ charity set up to try to find racehorses that don't - charity set up to try to find racehorses that don't suit, j charity set up to try to find - racehorses that don't suit, find them _ racehorses that don't suit, find them another— racehorses that don't suit, find them anotherjob. _ racehorses that don't suit, find them anotherjob. but - racehorses that don't suit, find them anotherjob. but were . racehorses that don't suit, find - them anotherjob. but were nearly 70 years— them anotherjob. but were nearly 70 years i_ them anotherjob. but were nearly 70 years i would — them anotherjob. but were nearly 70 years i would say— them anotherjob. but were nearly 70 years i would say that _ them anotherjob. but were nearly 70 years i would say that 40 _ them anotherjob. but were nearly 70 years i would say that 40 horses - years i would say that 40 horses going _ years i would say that 40 horses going at— years i would say that 40 horses going at full— years i would say that 40 horses going at full speed _ years i would say that 40 horses going at full speed over- years i would say that 40 horses - going at full speed over forethought hi-h going at full speed over forethought high fences, — going at full speed over forethought high fences, they— going at full speed over forethought high fences, they are _ going at full speed over forethought high fences, they are not _ going at full speed over forethought high fences, they are not just - going at full speed over forethought high fences, they are notjust high, | high fences, they are notjust high, they are _ high fences, they are notjust high, they are wired. _ high fences, they are notjust high, they are wired, and _ high fences, they are notjust high, they are wired, and i— high fences, they are notjust high, they are wired, and i believe - high fences, they are notjust high, they are wired, and i believe therei they are wired, and i believe there is a ditch— they are wired, and i believe there is a ditch on— they are wired, and i believe there is a ditch on it. _ they are wired, and i believe there is a ditch on it, which _ they are wired, and i believe there is a ditch on it, which one - they are wired, and i believe there is a ditch on it, which one horse i is a ditch on it, which one horse drowned — is a ditch on it, which one horse drowned in. _ is a ditch on it, which one horse drowned in, many— is a ditch on it, which one horse drowned in, many years - is a ditch on it, which one horse drowned in, many years ago, i is a ditch on it, which one horse i drowned in, many years ago, when is a ditch on it, which one horse - drowned in, many years ago, when i was younger — drowned in, many years ago, when i was younger i'm _ drowned in, many years ago, when i was younger. i'm afraid _ drowned in, many years ago, when i was younger. i'm afraid i— drowned in, many years ago, when i was younger. i'm afraid ijust - drowned in, many years ago, when i was younger. i'm afraid ijust don't i was younger. i'm afraid ijust don't think. _ was younger. i'm afraid ijust don't think. if— was younger. i'm afraid ijust don't think. if people _ was younger. i'm afraid ijust don't think, if people want _ was younger. i'm afraid ijust don't i think, if people want entertainment, there _ think, if people want entertainment, there are _ think, if people want entertainment, there are better— think, if people want entertainment, there are better ways _ think, if people want entertainment, there are better ways of _ think, if people want entertainment, there are better ways of doing - think, if people want entertainment, there are better ways of doing it - there are better ways of doing it than _ there are better ways of doing it than putting _ there are better ways of doing it than putting animals _ there are better ways of doing it than putting animals through . there are better ways of doing it . than putting animals through that. that is— than putting animals through that. that is my— than putting animals through that. that is my opinion. _ than putting animals through that. that is my opinion.— than putting animals through that. that is my opinion.- this i that is my opinion. sandy? this fliuht that is my opinion. sandy? this flight thing _ that is my opinion. sandy? this flight thing is — that is my opinion. sandy? this flight thing is something - that is my opinion. sandy? this flight thing is something that i flight thing is something that continually comes up, it is true that— continually comes up, it is true that when— continually comes up, it is true that when horses roam the plains, they were — that when horses roam the plains, they were in groups and flight. but we have _ they were in groups and flight. but we have moved on since then, and all animals— we have moved on since then, and all animals evolve. i do not actually agree _ animals evolve. i do not actually agree with — animals evolve. i do not actually agree with the point that the flight argument that is brought up. what

ou mean argument that is brought up. what you mean all— argument that is brought up. what you mean all animals _ argument that is brought up. twist you mean all animals evolve? evolution takes thousands and thousands of years. find evolution takes thousands and thousands of years.— thousands of years. and it is thousands — thousands of years. and it is thousands of _ thousands of years. and it is thousands of years - thousands of years. and it is thousands of years since - thousands of years. and it is i thousands of years since horses thousands of years. and it is - thousands of years since horses were running _ thousands of years since horses were running on _ thousands of years since horses were running on the plains. of course they— running on the plains. of course they took— running on the plains. of course they took flight if they saw danger. but that _ they took flight if they saw danger. but that doesn't happen now. they don't _ but that doesn't happen now. they don't run _ but that doesn't happen now. they don't run on — but that doesn't happen now. they don't run on the plains. these horses— don't run on the plains. these horses have been to mr —— domesticated. to say that flight is natural— domesticated. to say that flight is natural to— domesticated. to say that flight is natural to them is not necessarily true~ _ natural to them is not necessarily true i_ natural to them is not necessarily true~ ithink— natural to them is not necessarily true. i think the argument the lady was trying — true. i think the argument the lady was trying to make is that because horses— was trying to make is that because horses are — was trying to make is that because horses are like they are, of course they will— horses are like they are, of course they will race, because flight is something that is natural to them. so, something that is natural to them. so. i_ something that is natural to them. so, i wouldn't agree with that. can i 'ust sa , so, i wouldn't agree with that. can i just say. that _ so, i wouldn't agree with that. can ijust say, that my own horses live in herds _ ijust say, that my own horses live in herds they— ijust say, that my own horses live in herds. they are _ ijust say, that my own horses live in herds. they are not— ijust say, that my own horses live i in herds. they are not thoroughbred racehorses, — in herds. they are not thoroughbred racehorses, they— in herds. they are not thoroughbred

racehorses, they are _ in herds. they are not thoroughbred racehorses, they are ordinary- racehorses, they are ordinary horses, — racehorses, they are ordinary horses, many— racehorses, they are ordinary horses, many of— racehorses, they are ordinary horses, many of them - racehorses, they are ordinary horses, many of them are . racehorses, they are ordinary. horses, many of them are rare breeds — horses, many of them are rare breeds they— horses, many of them are rare breeds. they are _ horses, many of them are rare breeds. they are kept - horses, many of them are rare breeds. they are kept in - horses, many of them are rarei breeds. they are kept in herds. horses, many of them are rare i breeds. they are kept in herds. if one gets — breeds. they are kept in herds. if one gets a — breeds. they are kept in herds. if one gets a startle _ breeds. they are kept in herds. if one gets a startle and _ breeds. they are kept in herds. if one gets a startle and it- breeds. they are kept in herds. if one gets a startle and it runs, - breeds. they are kept in herds. if| one gets a startle and it runs, the others _ one gets a startle and it runs, the others will— one gets a startle and it runs, the others will run _ one gets a startle and it runs, the others will run with _ one gets a startle and it runs, the others will run with it, _ one gets a startle and it runs, the others will run with it, and - one gets a startle and it runs, the others will run with it, and i- one gets a startle and it runs, the others will run with it, and i will. others will run with it, and i will run until— others will run with it, and i will run until they _ others will run with it, and i will run until they are _ others will run with it, and i will run until they are not _ others will run with it, and i will run until they are not startled i run until they are not startled anyone — run until they are not startled anyone they— run until they are not startled anyone they will— run until they are not startled anyone they will stop - run until they are not startled anyone they will stop and - run until they are not startled i anyone they will stop and breed. run until they are not startled - anyone they will stop and breed. it is an— anyone they will stop and breed. it is an instinct — anyone they will stop and breed. it is an instinct that _ anyone they will stop and breed. it is an instinct that has _ anyone they will stop and breed. it is an instinct that has kept - anyone they will stop and breed. it is an instinct that has kept all- is an instinct that has kept all prey— is an instinct that has kept all prey animals _ is an instinct that has kept all prey animals alive. _ is an instinct that has kept all prey animals alive. sheep - is an instinct that has kept alli prey animals alive. sheep run, is an instinct that has kept all. prey animals alive. sheep run, if one is— prey animals alive. sheep run, if one is chased _ prey animals alive. sheep run, if one is chased by— prey animals alive. sheep run, if one is chased by a _ prey animals alive. sheep run, if one is chased by a dog, - prey animals alive. sheep run, if one is chased by a dog, they- prey animals alive. sheep run, if one is chased by a dog, they alli one is chased by a dog, they all run _ one is chased by a dog, they all run it's— one is chased by a dog, they all run its an _ one is chased by a dog, they all run. it's an instinct. _ one is chased by a dog, they all run. it's an instinct. i'm - one is chased by a dog, they all run. it's an instinct. i'm afraid i run. it's an instinct. i'm afraid that's— run. it's an instinct. i'm afraid that'sjust _ run. it's an instinct. i'm afraid that's just a _ run. it's an instinct. i'm afraid that's just a fact. _ run. it's an instinct. i'm afraid that's just a fact. i'm - run. it's an instinct. i'm afraid that's just a fact. i'm very - that'sjust a fact. i'm very impressed _ that'sjust a fact. i'm very impressed by— that'sjust a fact. i'm very impressed by people - that'sjust a fact. i'm very impressed by people who| that's just a fact. i'm very - impressed by people who can train animals— impressed by people who can train animals with — impressed by people who can train animals with their— impressed by people who can train animals with their instincts - impressed by people who can train animals with their instincts to - impressed by people who can train animals with their instincts to do l animals with their instincts to do things _ animals with their instincts to do things as — animals with their instincts to do things as a _ animals with their instincts to do things. as a trainer, _ animals with their instincts to do things. as a trainer, i— animals with their instincts to do things. as a trainer, i am - animals with their instincts to do things. as a trainer, i am sure i animals with their instincts to do i things. as a trainer, i am sure you understand — things. as a trainer, i am sure you understand that _ things. as a trainer, i am sure you understand that if _ things. as a trainer, i am sure you understand that if you _ things. as a trainer, i am sure you understand that if you train - things. as a trainer, i am sure you understand that if you train an - understand that if you train an animal. — understand that if you train an animal. along _ understand that if you train an animal, along with _ understand that if you train an animal, along with its - understand that if you train an| animal, along with its instinct, understand that if you train an i animal, along with its instinct, to do the _ animal, along with its instinct, to do the things _ animal, along with its instinct, to do the things you _ animal, along with its instinct, to do the things you wanted - animal, along with its instinct, to do the things you wanted to - animal, along with its instinct, to do the things you wanted to do, i animal, along with its instinct, toi do the things you wanted to do, of course _ do the things you wanted to do, of course you — do the things you wanted to do, of course you want _ do the things you wanted to do, of course you want them _ do the things you wanted to do, of course you want them to - do the things you wanted to do, of course you want them to stay - do the things you wanted to do, of course you want them to stay in i course you want them to stay in a reasonably — course you want them to stay in a reasonably straight _ course you want them to stay in a reasonably straight line, - course you want them to stay in a reasonably straight line, stay- course you want them to stay in a | reasonably straight line, stay with their mates— reasonably straight line, stay with their mates and _ reasonably straight line, stay with their mates and go _ reasonably straight line, stay with their mates and go along - reasonably straight line, stay with their mates and go along with - reasonably straight line, stay with their mates and go along with the| their mates and go along with the race, _ their mates and go along with the race, and — their mates and go along with the race, and not— their mates and go along with the race, and not try— their mates and go along with the race, and not try to _ their mates and go along with the race, and not try to bulk- their mates and go along with the race, and not try to bulk my - race, and not try to bulk my defences— race, and not try to bulk my defences or— race, and not try to bulk my defences or run _ race, and not try to bulk my defences or run out. - race, and not try to bulk my defences or run out. you . race, and not try to bulk myl defences or run out. you are race, and not try to bulk my - defences or run out. you are using an instinct — defences or run out. you are using an instinct that _ defences or run out. you are using an instinct that has _ defences or run out. you are using an instinct that has survived - defences or run out. you are using an instinct that has survived and i an instinct that has survived and kept _ an instinct that has survived and kept them — an instinct that has survived and kept them alive _ an instinct that has survived and kept them alive for— an instinct that has survived and kept them alive for thousands i an instinct that has survived and | kept them alive for thousands of years. _ kept them alive for thousands of years. and — kept them alive for thousands of years. and will— kept them alive for thousands of years, and will still— kept them alive for thousands of years, and will still probably - years, and will still probably always — years, and will still probably always be _ years, and will still probably always be with _ years, and will still probably always be with them, - years, and will still probably i always be with them, because years, and will still probably - always be with them, because as mr

camphell— always be with them, because as mr campbell said. — always be with them, because as mr campbell said. it— always be with them, because as mr campbell said, it takes _ always be with them, because as mr campbell said, it takes a _ always be with them, because as mr campbell said, it takes a long - always be with them, because as mr campbell said, it takes a long time i campbell said, it takes a long time for animals— campbell said, it takes a long time for animals to _ campbell said, it takes a long time for animals to evolve. _ campbell said, it takes a long time for animals to evolve. left - campbell said, it takes a long time for animals to evolve.— campbell said, it takes a long time for animals to evolve. let me bring in mark in manchester, _ for animals to evolve. let me bring in mark in manchester, and - for animals to evolve. let me bring in mark in manchester, and ben i in mark in manchester, and ben newman, spokesperson for animal rising. sandy, do stick around. we've got chloe coming up, we got joe in north london coming up. how are you doing, mark? goad joe in north london coming up. how are you doing, mark? i are you doing, mark? good morning. i would like you — are you doing, mark? good morning. i would like you to _ are you doing, mark? good morning. i would like you to speak— are you doing, mark? good morning. i would like you to speak to _ are you doing, mark? good morning. i would like you to speak to ben - would like you to speak to ben newman, i know that you have reservations. are you still with us, ben, ready to go to answer mark? mark, meet ben. mark? my ben, ready to go to answer mark? mark, meet ben. mark?— ben, ready to go to answer mark? mark, meet ben. mark? my point was the nature of— mark, meet ben. mark? my point was the nature of the _ mark, meet ben. mark? my point was the nature of the protest. _ mark, meet ben. mark? my point was the nature of the protest. since - mark, meet ben. mark? my point was the nature of the protest. since the i the nature of the protest. since the grand _ the nature of the protest. since the grand national— the nature of the protest. since the grand national was— the nature of the protest. since the grand national was modified - the nature of the protest. since the grand national was modified to- the nature of the protest. since the grand national was modified to ten| grand national was modified to ten years— grand national was modified to ten years ago. — grand national was modified to ten years ago. the _ grand national was modified to ten years ago, the renewal— grand national was modified to ten years ago, the renewal of- grand national was modified to ten years ago, the renewal of the - grand national was modified to teni years ago, the renewal of the grand national. _ years ago, the renewal of the grand national. there _ years ago, the renewal of the grand national, there have _ years ago, the renewal of the grand national, there have been - years ago, the renewal of the grand national, there have been 17 - years ago, the renewal of the grand national, there have been 17 falls i national, there have been 17 falls or people — national, there have been 17 falls or people unseated _ national, there have been 17 falls or people unseated at _ national, there have been 17 falls or people unseated at the - national, there have been 17 falls or people unseated at the first. national, there have been 17 fallsl or people unseated at the first two fences, _ or people unseated at the first two fences, there _ or people unseated at the first two fences, there was _ or people unseated at the first two fences, there was three _ or people unseated at the first two fences, there was three in- or people unseated at the first two fences, there was three in 2015. i fences, there was three in 2015. this year— fences, there was three in 2015.

this year there _ fences, there was three in 2015. this year there were _ fences, there was three in 2015. this year there were eight - fences, there was three in 2015. this year there were eight falls. fences, there was three in 2015. i this year there were eight falls or unseated — this year there were eight falls or unseated at — this year there were eight falls or unseated at the _ this year there were eight falls or unseated at the first _ this year there were eight falls or unseated at the first fence - this year there were eight falls or unseated at the first fence alone, j unseated at the first fence alone, including — unseated at the first fence alone, including the _ unseated at the first fence alone, including the fatality. _ unseated at the first fence alone, including the fatality. i— unseated at the first fence alone, including the fatality. i strongly i including the fatality. i strongly believe — including the fatality. i strongly believe the _ including the fatality. i strongly believe the protest _ including the fatality. i strongly believe the protest at - including the fatality. i strongly believe the protest at the - including the fatality. i stronglyl believe the protest at the nature including the fatality. i strongly - believe the protest at the nature of the timing — believe the protest at the nature of the timing of— believe the protest at the nature of the timing of it— believe the protest at the nature of the timing of it was— believe the protest at the nature of the timing of it was a _ believe the protest at the nature of the timing of it was a contributing i the timing of it was a contributing factor— the timing of it was a contributing factor to— the timing of it was a contributing factor to that _ the timing of it was a contributing factor to that. i— the timing of it was a contributing factor to that. i think _ the timing of it was a contributing factor to that. i think it _ the timing of it was a contributing factor to that. i think it because l factor to that. i think it because the horses— factor to that. i think it because the horses to _ factor to that. i think it because the horses to become _ factor to that. i think it because i the horses to become unsettled, because — the horses to become unsettled, because of— the horses to become unsettled, because of the _ the horses to become unsettled, because of the delay. _ the horses to become unsettled, because of the delay. everybodyl the horses to become unsettled, . because of the delay. everybody has a right _ because of the delay. everybody has a right to _ because of the delay. everybody has a right to protest _ because of the delay. everybody has a right to protest peacefully, - because of the delay. everybody has a right to protest peacefully, but. because of the delay. everybody has a right to protest peacefully, but i i a right to protest peacefully, but i think— a right to protest peacefully, but i think the — a right to protest peacefully, but i think the untimely _ a right to protest peacefully, but i think the untimely attempt - a right to protest peacefully, but i think the untimely attempt to - think the untimely attempt to disrupt— think the untimely attempt to disrupt it _ think the untimely attempt to disrupt it has _ think the untimely attempt to disrupt it has done _ think the untimely attempt to disrupt it has done more - think the untimely attempt to| disrupt it has done more harm think the untimely attempt to - disrupt it has done more harm than good _ disrupt it has done more harm than aood. , ~ disrupt it has done more harm than iood, , ~' ., �*, disrupt it has done more harm than aood. , ,, ., �*, , ., good. hey, mark. that's exactly what we were trying _ good. hey, mark. that's exactly what we were trying to _ good. hey, mark. that's exactly what we were trying to stop, _ good. hey, mark. that's exactly what we were trying to stop, what - we were trying to stop, what happened over the first jumper. we were trying to stop, what happened over the firstjumper. in 2019, exactly the same thing happened. a horse went over, broke their neck, died instantly. that's nothing new. so that's what we were trying to stop. d0 nothing new. so that's what we were trying to stop-— trying to stop. do you not think the numbers, trying to stop. do you not think the numbers. an _ trying to stop. do you not think the numbers, an average _ trying to stop. do you not think the numbers, an average of _ trying to stop. do you not think the numbers, an average of two - trying to stop. do you not think the numbers, an average of two in - trying to stop. do you not think the numbers, an average of two in the | numbers, an average of two in the last ten— numbers, an average of two in the last ten years. _ numbers, an average of two in the last ten years, and _

numbers, an average of two in the last ten years, and this _ numbers, an average of two in the last ten years, and this year- last ten years, and this year there were _ last ten years, and this year there were eight. — last ten years, and this year there were eight. only— last ten years, and this year there were eight, only one _ last ten years, and this year there were eight, only one thing - were eight, only one thing different this year— were eight, only one thing different this year was— were eight, only one thing different this year was the _ were eight, only one thing different this year was the destruction, - were eight, only one thing different this year was the destruction, withl this year was the destruction, with the protests— this year was the destruction, with the protests beforehand, - this year was the destruction, with the protests beforehand, do- this year was the destruction, with the protests beforehand, do you i this year was the destruction, with i the protests beforehand, do you not think it _ the protests beforehand, do you not think it would — the protests beforehand, do you not think it would have _ the protests beforehand, do you not think it would have been _ the protests beforehand, do you not think it would have been better- the protests beforehand, do you not think it would have been better to. think it would have been better to have a _ think it would have been better to have a peaceful _ think it would have been better to have a peaceful protest _ think it would have been better to have a peaceful protest outside? i have a peaceful protest outside? everybody — have a peaceful protest outside? everybody has _ have a peaceful protest outside? everybody has the _ have a peaceful protest outside? everybody has the right - have a peaceful protest outside? everybody has the right to - have a peaceful protest outside? i everybody has the right to protest, but to _ everybody has the right to protest, but to do _ everybody has the right to protest, but to do that _ everybody has the right to protest, but to do that when _ everybody has the right to protest, but to do that when the _ everybody has the right to protest, but to do that when the horses - but to do that when the horses already— but to do that when the horses already in. _ but to do that when the horses already in. to _ but to do that when the horses already in, to attempt - but to do that when the horses already in, to attempt to - but to do that when the horses already in, to attempt to stopl already in, to attempt to stop the race, _ already in, to attempt to stop the race, unsuccessfully, _ already in, to attempt to stop the race, unsuccessfully, i— already in, to attempt to stop the race, unsuccessfully, i can't- already in, to attempt to stop the race, unsuccessfully, i can't helpl race, unsuccessfully, i can't help but think— race, unsuccessfully, i can't help but think that — race, unsuccessfully, i can't help but think that caused _ race, unsuccessfully, i can't help but think that caused more - but think that caused more disruption _ but think that caused more disruption and _ but think that caused more disruption and ultimately l but think that caused more i disruption and ultimately it's contributed _ disruption and ultimately it's contributed to _ disruption and ultimately it's contributed to the _ disruption and ultimately it's contributed to the death - disruption and ultimately it's contributed to the death of. disruption and ultimately it's i contributed to the death of the horse — contributed to the death of the horse. lt— contributed to the death of the horse. , , ., , , , contributed to the death of the horse. , , ., horse. it is impossible to say with absolute certainty. _ horse. it is impossible to say with absolute certainty. people - horse. it is impossible to say with absolute certainty. people are - absolute certainty. people are really upset that a horse died. there were people crying afterwards as a result of horse dying. latte there were people crying afterwards as a result of horse dying.— as a result of horse dying. we heard how u set as a result of horse dying. we heard how upset it — as a result of horse dying. we heard how upset it sandy _ as a result of horse dying. we heard how upset it sandy was, _ as a result of horse dying. we heard how upset it sandy was, what - as a result of horse dying. we heard how upset it sandy was, what do i as a result of horse dying. we heard| how upset it sandy was, what do you think about what he said, that it was devastating for him and everybody involved with hill sixteen as well? what did you think of what we heard sandy actually speaking to

hill sixteen? i do we heard sandy actually speaking to hill sixteen?— hill sixteen? i do empathise with sand as hill sixteen? i do empathise with sandy as a _ hill sixteen? i do empathise with sandy as a person, _ hill sixteen? i do empathise with sandy as a person, of _ hill sixteen? i do empathise with sandy as a person, of course. - hill sixteen? i do empathise with sandy as a person, of course. at| hill sixteen? i do empathise with i sandy as a person, of course. at the horse should not have been running the race in the first place. as sandy described, it was running the race because the previous owner wanted them to, the real reason they were running is so that people could bet on the horse, so jockeys could make money and people could have a fun day out, that doesn't sound like a good enough reason to put the animal in harm's way.— a good enough reason to put the animal in harm's way. sandy, do you want to come _ animal in harm's way. sandy, do you want to come back? _ animal in harm's way. sandy, do you want to come back? we _ animal in harm's way. sandy, do you want to come back? we know- animal in harm's way. sandy, do you want to come back? we know what i want to come back? we know what animal rising _ want to come back? we know what animal rising are, _ want to come back? we know what animal rising are, let's _ want to come back? we know what animal rising are, let's be - want to come back? we know what animal rising are, let's be straightj animal rising are, let's be straight about— animal rising are, let's be straight about am — animal rising are, let's be straight about a... ~ ., ., animal rising are, let's be straight abouta... ~ ., ., animal rising are, let's be straight about a... ~ ., ., ., animal rising are, let's be straight about a---_ lfl animal rising are, let's be straight i about a..._ if you about a... what do you mean? if you to to the about a... what do you mean? if you go to the website, _ about a... what do you mean? if you go to the website, they _ about a... what do you mean? if you go to the website, they are - about a. .. what do you mean? if you go to the website, they are all- go to the website, they are all about, — go to the website, they are all about, i'vejust go to the website, they are all about, i've just looked at their website, — about, i've just looked at their website, it is all about having a plant _ website, it is all about having a plant —based diet. they've actually 'ust plant —based diet. they've actually just used _ plant —based diet. they've actually just used saturday as a big sporting occasionm — just used saturday as a big sporting occasion... ~ ., , ., just used saturday as a big sporting occasion- - -— occasion... what is wrong with havint occasion... what is wrong with havin: a occasion... what is wrong with having a plant _ occasion... what is wrong with having a plant -based - occasion... what is wrong with having a plant -based diet? i occasion... what is wrong with l having a plant -based diet? are occasion... what is wrong with - having a plant -based diet? are you having a plant —based diet? are you not conflating two things? hear

having a plant -based diet? are you not conflating two things?— not conflating two things? hear me out, that not conflating two things? hear me out. that is — not conflating two things? hear me out, that is absolutely _ not conflating two things? hear me out, that is absolutely fine. - not conflating two things? hear me out, that is absolutely fine. but - out, that is absolutely fine. but they— out, that is absolutely fine. but they have — out, that is absolutely fine. but they have used the grand national to further— they have used the grand national to further that cause. here they have used the grand national to furtherthat cause. here is they have used the grand national to further that cause. here is a huge sporting _ further that cause. here is a huge sporting event, let's try to disrupt it so everybody knows about animal rising _ it so everybody knows about animal rising. never mind about the horses, we've _ rising. never mind about the horses, we've disrupted the race, you know? they now. _ we've disrupted the race, you know? they now, nobody can say for sure, but statistics — they now, nobody can say for sure, but statistics and the people who know _ but statistics and the people who know what went on, you know, can say fairly certainly — know what went on, you know, can say fairly certainly that animal rising had a _ fairly certainly that animal rising had a huge impact on the start of the race — had a huge impact on the start of the race on— had a huge impact on the start of the race on the untimely death of hill sixteen.— the race on the untimely death of hill sixteen. so, we disrupted the race for two _ hill sixteen. so, we disrupted the race for two reasons, _ hill sixteen. so, we disrupted the race for two reasons, really. - hill sixteen. so, we disrupted the race for two reasons, really. one | race for two reasons, really. one was to stop the race from happening, to stop the horse dying, is exactly happened once it went ahead. two, yes, to have a conversation in general about our relationship with animals and nature. the key solution

to us is having an animalfree animals and nature. the key solution to us is having an animal free food system. so we are about our relationship with animals in general and how we treat them. i just don't think... i and how we treat them. i 'ust don't think... ., �* ., ., ., ~ , think... i don't want to make this about veganism. _ think... i don't want to make this about veganism. just _ think... i don't want to make this about veganism. just hold - think... i don't want to make this about veganism. just hold fire. i think... i don't want to make this i about veganism. just hold fire. the owner in east kilbride. joe, you were there on saturday, tell me more. —— fiona. were there on saturday, tell me more. -- fiona.— were there on saturday, tell me more. -- fiona. i've never been to the grand — more. -- fiona. i've never been to the grand national— more. -- fiona. i've never been to the grand national before, - more. -- fiona. i've never been to the grand national before, not - more. -- fiona. i've never been to the grand national before, not a i the grand national before, not a horse _ the grand national before, not a horse racing _ the grand national before, not a horse racing fan, _ the grand national before, not a horse racing fan, but— the grand national before, not a horse racing fan, but it - the grand national before, not a horse racing fan, but it was - the grand national before, not a horse racing fan, but it was my. horse racing fan, but it was my husband — horse racing fan, but it was my husband was _ horse racing fan, but it was my husband was like _ horse racing fan, but it was my husband was like a _ horse racing fan, but it was my husband was like a 60th - horse racing fan, but it was my. husband was like a 60th birthday horse racing fan, but it was my- husband was like a 60th birthday and it was— husband was like a 60th birthday and it was one _ husband was like a 60th birthday and it was one of— husband was like a 60th birthday and it was one of his _ husband was like a 60th birthday and it was one of his dreams, _ husband was like a 60th birthday and it was one of his dreams, he - husband was like a 60th birthday and it was one of his dreams, he loves i it was one of his dreams, he loves bil it was one of his dreams, he loves big sporting — it was one of his dreams, he loves big sporting events. _ it was one of his dreams, he loves big sporting events. i— it was one of his dreams, he loves big sporting events. i found - it was one of his dreams, he loves big sporting events. i found the i big sporting events. i found the whole _ big sporting events. i found the whole thing _ big sporting events. i found the whole thing shocking. - big sporting events. i found the whole thing shocking. it - big sporting events. i found the whole thing shocking. it was . big sporting events. i found the| whole thing shocking. it was not big sporting events. i found the - whole thing shocking. it was not the first horse _ whole thing shocking. it was not the first horse racing _ whole thing shocking. it was not the first horse racing meeting _ whole thing shocking. it was not the first horse racing meeting i- whole thing shocking. it was not the first horse racing meeting i had - first horse racing meeting i had been _ first horse racing meeting i had been to, — first horse racing meeting i had been to, i— first horse racing meeting i had beento, iwas— first horse racing meeting i had been to, i was at— first horse racing meeting i had been to, i was at the _ first horse racing meeting i had i been to, i was at the cheltenham trial is— been to, i was at the cheltenham trial is not— been to, i was at the cheltenham trial is not so— been to, i was at the cheltenham trial is not so long _ been to, i was at the cheltenham trial is not so long ago. _ been to, i was at the cheltenham trial is not so long ago. i- been to, i was at the cheltenham trial is not so long ago. i found i been to, i was at the cheltenham trial is not so long ago. i found it| trial is not so long ago. i found it completely— trial is not so long ago. i found it completely different, _ trial is not so long ago. i found it completely different, found - trial is not so long ago. i found it completely different, found it. trial is not so long ago. i found it. completely different, found it very respectful — completely different, found it very respectful and _ completely different, found it very respectful and found _ completely different, found it very respectful and found it _ completely different, found it very respectful and found it kind - completely different, found it very respectful and found it kind of- respectful and found it kind of really — respectful and found it kind of really much _ respectful and found it kind of really much more _ respectful and found it kind of really much more about - respectful and found it kind of really much more about the i respectful and found it kind of- really much more about the horses. this seemed — really much more about the horses. this seemed to _ really much more about the horses. this seemed to be _ really much more about the horses. this seemed to be all— really much more about the horses. this seemed to be all about - really much more about the horses. this seemed to be all about the - this seemed to be all about the money — this seemed to be all about the money the _ this seemed to be all about the money. the number— this seemed to be all about the money. the number of- this seemed to be all about the money. the number of horses i this seemed to be all about the i money. the number of horses in this seemed to be all about the - money. the number of horses in that race is— money. the number of horses in that race is unnecessary. _ money. the number of horses in that race is unnecessary. you _ money. the number of horses in that race is unnecessary. you could - money. the number of horses in that race is unnecessary. you could havel race is unnecessary. you could have 'ust race is unnecessary. you could have just as _ race is unnecessary. you could have just as good — race is unnecessary. you could have just as good a — race is unnecessary. you could have just as good a race _ race is unnecessary. you could have just as good a race if— race is unnecessary. you could have just as good a race if there - race is unnecessary. you could have

just as good a race if there were - race is unnecessary. you could have just as good a race if there were 30| just as good a race if there were 30 horses— just as good a race if there were 30 horses instead _ just as good a race if there were 30 horses instead of— just as good a race if there were 30 horses instead of 40 _ just as good a race if there were 30 horses instead of 40 horses. - just as good a race if there were 30 horses instead of 40 horses. it - horses instead of 40 horses. it would — horses instead of 40 horses. it would be — horses instead of 40 horses. it would be just— horses instead of 40 horses. it would be just as _ horses instead of 40 horses. it would be just as exciting, - horses instead of 40 horses. it would be just as exciting, but i horses instead of 40 horses. it| would be just as exciting, but it would _ would be just as exciting, but it would be — would be just as exciting, but it would be so _ would be just as exciting, but it would be so much _ would be just as exciting, but it would be so much safer- would be just as exciting, but it would be so much safer for- would be just as exciting, but it would be so much safer for the| would be so much safer for the horses— would be so much safer for the horses on— would be so much safer for the horses on the _ would be so much safer for the horses on the riders. _ would be so much safer for the horses on the riders. why- would be so much safer for the| horses on the riders. why track would be so much safer for the i horses on the riders. why track i suppose — horses on the riders. why track i suppose people _ horses on the riders. why track i suppose people would _ horses on the riders. why track i suppose people would say - horses on the riders. why track i suppose people would say there| horses on the riders. why track i. suppose people would say there is something. — suppose people would say there is something. as _ suppose people would say there is something. as i _ suppose people would say there is something, as i said _ suppose people would say there is something, as i said earlier- suppose people would say there is something, as i said earlier on, i something, as i said earlier on, when _ something, as i said earlier on, when i — something, as i said earlier on, when i was _ something, as i said earlier on, when i was talking _ something, as i said earlier on, when i was talking at _ something, as i said earlier on, when i was talking at the - something, as i said earlier on, when i was talking at the start, | when i was talking at the start, there _ when i was talking at the start, there is— when i was talking at the start, there is something _ when i was talking at the start, there is something exhilarating about— there is something exhilarating about that _ there is something exhilarating about that massive _ there is something exhilarating about that massive gallop. - there is something exhilarating - about that massive gallop. somebody i __ about that massive gallop. somebody i-- might— about that massive gallop. somebody i —— might describe _ about that massive gallop. somebody i—— might describe it— about that massive gallop. somebody i—— might describe it as— about that massive gallop. somebody i —— might describe it as a _ i —— might describe it as a stampede _ but five horses fell at the first fence — but five horses fell at the first fence one _ but five horses fell at the first fence. one of— but five horses fell at the first fence. one of them, - but five horses fell at the first fence. one of them, as- but five horses fell at the first fence. one of them, as we - but five horses fell at the first - fence. one of them, as we heard, tragically— fence. one of them, as we heard, tragically lost _ fence. one of them, as we heard, tragically lost its— fence. one of them, as we heard, tragically lost its life. _ fence. one of them, as we heard, tragically lost its life. if _ fence. one of them, as we heard, tragically lost its life. if they- tragically lost its life. if they had five _ tragically lost its life. if they had five less _ tragically lost its life. if they had five less horses, - tragically lost its life. if they had five less horses, there i tragically lost its life. if they- had five less horses, there would be more _ had five less horses, there would be more chance — had five less horses, there would be more chance of— had five less horses, there would be more chance of them _ had five less horses, there would be more chance of them going - had five less horses, there would be more chance of them going over- had five less horses, there would be more chance of them going over thej more chance of them going over the fence _ more chance of them going over the fence. ., ., ., , , . g, fence. fiona, in east kilbride. what was your--- — fence. fiona, in east kilbride. what was your--- l— fence. fiona, in east kilbride. what was your... i know _ fence. fiona, in east kilbride. what was your... i know you _ fence. fiona, in east kilbride. what was your... i know you saw - fence. fiona, in east kilbride. what was your... i know you saw it, - fence. fiona, in east kilbride. what was your... i know you saw it, what was your... i know you saw it, what was your... i know you saw it, what was your emotional reaction to what you did see? latte was your emotional reaction to what you did see?— was your emotional reaction to what ou did see? ~ , ,, you did see? we were quite shocked, to be honest- —

you did see? we were quite shocked, to be honest. it— you did see? we were quite shocked, to be honest. it was— you did see? we were quite shocked, to be honest. it was a _ you did see? we were quite shocked, to be honest. it was a family - to be honest. it was a family occasion, _ to be honest. it was a family occasion, granny— to be honest. it was a family occasion, granny was - to be honest. it was a family occasion, granny was up, . to be honest. it was a familyj occasion, granny was up, we thought we would _ occasion, granny was up, we thought we would have — occasion, granny was up, we thought we would have a _ occasion, granny was up, we thought we would have a bit _ occasion, granny was up, we thought we would have a bit of— occasion, granny was up, we thought we would have a bit of fun, _ occasion, granny was up, we thought we would have a bit of fun, my- we would have a bit of fun, my seven—year—old's_ we would have a bit of fun, my seven—year—old's first - we would have a bit of fun, my. seven—year—old's first experience we would have a bit of fun, my- seven—year—old's first experience of the grand _ seven—year—old's first experience of the grand national. _ seven—year—old's first experience of the grand national. she _ seven—year—old's first experience of the grand national. she picked - seven—year—old's first experience of the grand national. she picked the| the grand national. she picked the winner. _ the grand national. she picked the winner. but— the grand national. she picked the winner, but when _ the grand national. she picked the winner, but when she _ the grand national. she picked the winner, but when she found - the grand national. she picked the winner, but when she found out. the grand national. she picked the i winner, but when she found out that hill sixteen — winner, but when she found out that hill sixteen had _ winner, but when she found out that hill sixteen had actually _ winner, but when she found out that hill sixteen had actually died, - winner, but when she found out that hill sixteen had actually died, we i hill sixteen had actually died, we were _ hill sixteen had actually died, we were all— hill sixteen had actually died, we were all very _ hill sixteen had actually died, we were all very sad. _ hill sixteen had actually died, we were all very sad. she _ hill sixteen had actually died, we were all very sad. she held - hill sixteen had actually died, we were all very sad. she held a - hill sixteen had actually died, we| were all very sad. she held a mini funeral— were all very sad. she held a mini funeral and — were all very sad. she held a mini funeral and talked _ were all very sad. she held a mini funeral and talked about - were all very sad. she held a mini funeral and talked about death i funeral and talked about death pretty— funeral and talked about death pretty much— funeral and talked about death pretty much sense. _ funeral and talked about death pretty much sense.— funeral and talked about death pretty much sense. weight, she held a mini funeral? _ pretty much sense. weight, she held a mini funeral? my— pretty much sense. weight, she held a mini funeral? my goodness - pretty much sense. weight, she held a mini funeral? my goodness me. i pretty much sense. weight, she held | a mini funeral? my goodness me. she made a little — a mini funeral? my goodness me. she made a little tombstone and we were all invited _ made a little tombstone and we were all invited up — made a little tombstone and we were all invited up have _ made a little tombstone and we were all invited up have to _ made a little tombstone and we were all invited up have to say _ made a little tombstone and we were all invited up have to say something. all invited up have to say something about— all invited up have to say something about the _ all invited up have to say something about the horse. _ all invited up have to say something about the horse. it _ all invited up have to say something about the horse. it really— all invited up have to say something about the horse. it really does - about the horse. it really does affect — about the horse. it really does affect her _ about the horse. it really does affect her. it _ about the horse. it really does affect her. it was _ about the horse. it really does affect her. it was very- about the horse. it really does affect her. it was very sad - about the horse. it really does affect her. it was very sad to i about the horse. it really does i affect her. it was very sad to see. how— affect her. it was very sad to see. how did _ affect her. it was very sad to see. how did you — affect her. it was very sad to see. how did you explain _ affect her. it was very sad to see. how did you explain it? _ affect her. it was very sad to see. how did you explain it? great- affect her. it was very sad to see. - how did you explain it? great wisdom can sometimes come from seven—year—olds. what did she think about it? what did she think about the whole idea of it and would she

want to watch another one? has it put her off?— put her off? she said, daddy, i didn't want _ put her off? she said, daddy, i didn't want to _ put her off? she said, daddy, i didn't want to put _ put her off? she said, daddy, i didn't want to put money - put her off? she said, daddy, i didn't want to put money on i put her off? she said, daddy, i l didn't want to put money on the racing. — didn't want to put money on the racing. i— didn't want to put money on the racing, i wouldn't _ didn't want to put money on the racing, i wouldn't do— didn't want to put money on the racing, i wouldn't do that - didn't want to put money on the racing, i wouldn't do that againl didn't want to put money on the l racing, i wouldn't do that again if i racing, iwouldn't do that again if i knew— racing, i wouldn't do that again if i knew the — racing, i wouldn't do that again if i knew the horse _ racing, i wouldn't do that again if i knew the horse was _ racing, i wouldn't do that again if i knew the horse was going - racing, i wouldn't do that again if i knew the horse was going to . racing, i wouldn't do that again if. i knew the horse was going to die. so, i knew the horse was going to die. so. she _ i knew the horse was going to die. so. she really— i knew the horse was going to die. so, she really doesn't _ i knew the horse was going to die. so, she really doesn't want - i knew the horse was going to die. so, she really doesn't want to - so, she really doesn't want to support— so, she really doesn't want to support it _ so, she really doesn't want to support it again _ so, she really doesn't want to support it again. we - so, she really doesn't want to support it again. we did - so, she really doesn't want to support it again. we did try. so, she really doesn't want to support it again. we did try to explain — support it again. we did try to explain that, _ support it again. we did try to explain that, generally - support it again. we did try to explain that, generally come i support it again. we did try to. explain that, generally come in support it again. we did try to- explain that, generally come in our opinion, _ explain that, generally come in our opinion, the — explain that, generally come in our opinion, the horses _ explain that, generally come in our opinion, the horses have _ explain that, generally come in our opinion, the horses have a - explain that, generally come in our opinion, the horses have a very- explain that, generally come in ouri opinion, the horses have a very nice life, opinion, the horses have a very nice life. the _ opinion, the horses have a very nice life, the trainers— opinion, the horses have a very nice life, the trainers treat _ opinion, the horses have a very nice life, the trainers treat them - life, the trainers treat them ektremely— life, the trainers treat them extremely well. _ life, the trainers treat them extremely well. and - life, the trainers treat them extremely well. and it's - life, the trainers treat them extremely well. and it's a i life, the trainers treat them i extremely well. and it's a very small— extremely well. and it's a very small minority— extremely well. and it's a very small minority of _ extremely well. and it's a very small minority of horses - extremely well. and it's a very small minority of horses that i extremely well. and it's a very - small minority of horses that would die in— small minority of horses that would die in a _ small minority of horses that would die in a race — small minority of horses that would die in a race. so, _ small minority of horses that would die in a race. so, we— small minority of horses that would die in a race. so, we don't- small minority of horses that would die in a race. so, we don't think- die in a race. so, we don't think there _ die in a race. so, we don't think there is— die in a race. so, we don't think there is any— die in a race. so, we don't think there is any cruelty _ die in a race. so, we don't think there is any cruelty intended - there is any cruelty intended towards _ there is any cruelty intended towards the _ there is any cruelty intended towards the animals. - there is any cruelty intended towards the animals. but. towards the animals. but unfortunately _ towards the animals. but unfortunately these - towards the animals. butl unfortunately these things towards the animals. but - unfortunately these things to sometimes _ unfortunately these things to sometimes happen. - unfortunately these things to sometimes happen.— unfortunately these things to sometimes happen. that's a very interesting _ sometimes happen. that's a very interesting point. _ sometimes happen. that's a very interesting point. it's— sometimes happen. that's a very interesting point. it's good - sometimes happen. that's a very interesting point. it's good to - interesting point. it's good to address it. then newman from animal rising, these horses have an absolutely magnificent life that they live, they live like equine kings and queens. we see other horses in other circumstances, where we really should be doing something

about it, that is a time for animal rising to maybe do something in conjunction with the rspca, some horses are appallingly treated. there is egregious cruelty to them. these horses are, we hear, absolutely pampered. shouldn't there be part of you that celebrates the life that they have? i’m be part of you that celebrates the life that they have?— life that they have? i'm glad if those horses _ life that they have? i'm glad if those horses are _ life that they have? i'm glad if those horses are treated - life that they have? i'm glad if those horses are treated welll life that they have? i'm glad if- those horses are treated well when they are not at the grand national. 0f they are not at the grand national. of course, that is great. any animal being harmed as a bad thing. but treating an animal well does not justify putting them in harms way. if we love animals, we should not harm them. i think as animal lovers, as many people say they are, most people agree. i was arrested on the grand national, and the policewoman who arrested me was telling me that she was an animal lover and was really upset herself. we are not in

a perfect world. talk really upset herself. we are not in a perfect world-— a perfect world. talk me through that conversation _ a perfect world. talk me through that conversation again. - a perfect world. talk me through that conversation again. at - a perfect world. talk me through that conversation again. at what | that conversation again. at what point you are arrested, what were you doing, and how many police were around? paint the picture for us of this particular event. it's quite interesting, you saying what she said. let's go back, the scenario? yes, so, i ended up running down the middle of the grand national, is a strange place to find yourself at 5.05. i was arrested shortly afterwards. not charged. so, we were waiting for hours with the police, who initially, understandably, it is quite an emotional environment when you get arrested, but we spoke for a couple of hours, waiting around. the police were broadly interested and sympathetic to what they heard. and they did repeat some of the standard lines around horses being bred for this, or they are bred to run, or they love running. by the end of the

conversation they were all quite moved. ~ ., ., ., _ moved. what do you mean by quite moved? well. _ moved. what do you mean by quite moved? well, for _ moved. what do you mean by quite moved? well, for example, - moved. what do you mean by quite moved? well, for example, saying| moved. what do you mean by quite i moved? well, for example, saying i'm an animal lover, _ moved? well, for example, saying i'm an animal lover, i _ moved? well, for example, saying i'm an animal lover, i hate _ moved? well, for example, saying i'm an animal lover, i hate horses- moved? well, for example, saying i'm an animal lover, i hate horses being i an animal lover, i hate horses being harmed, but what can we do? it's just ourjob. this sort of thing. chloe, we have not heard from you yet. chloe, we have not heard from you et. , ., chloe, we have not heard from you et. ., what chloe, we have not heard from you yet-_ what if - chloe, we have not heard from you yet-_ what if you i yet. good morning. what if you think? yes, _ yet. good morning. what if you think? yes, i— yet. good morning. what if you think? yes, i am _ yet. good morning. what if you think? yes, i am a _ yet. good morning. what if you think? yes, i am a huge - yet. good morning. what if you i think? yes, i am a huge supporter yet. good morning. what if you - think? yes, i am a huge supporter of horse racing — think? yes, i am a huge supporter of horse racing and _ think? yes, i am a huge supporter of horse racing and have _ think? yes, i am a huge supporter of horse racing and have been - think? yes, i am a huge supporter of horse racing and have been for - think? yes, i am a huge supporter of horse racing and have been for manyj horse racing and have been for many years _ horse racing and have been for many years we _ horse racing and have been for many years. i've watched _ horse racing and have been for many years. i've watched the _ horse racing and have been for many years. i've watched the grand - years. i've watched the grand national. _ years. i've watched the grand national, been _ years. i've watched the grand national, been to _ years. i've watched the grand national, been to the - years. i've watched the grand national, been to the grand i national, been to the grand national _ national, been to the grand national. watching - national, been to the grand national. watching on - national, been to the grand - national. watching on saturday, i don't _ national. watching on saturday, i don't think— national. watching on saturday, i don't think anybody— national. watching on saturday, i don't think anybody could - national. watching on saturday, i don't think anybody could deny i national. watching on saturday, i don't think anybody could deny it| don't think anybody could deny it wasn't _ don't think anybody could deny it wasn't a — don't think anybody could deny it wasn't a pretty— don't think anybody could deny it wasn't a pretty watch. _ don't think anybody could deny it wasn't a pretty watch. it - don't think anybody could deny it wasn't a pretty watch. it was - don't think anybody could deny it wasn't a pretty watch. it was not| wasn't a pretty watch. it was not nice. — wasn't a pretty watch. it was not nice. the _ wasn't a pretty watch. it was not nice. the incidents— wasn't a pretty watch. it was not nice. the incidents in— wasn't a pretty watch. it was not nice. the incidents in the - wasn't a pretty watch. it was not nice. the incidents in the first i nice. the incidents in the first race, — nice. the incidents in the first race, it — nice. the incidents in the first race, it set _ nice. the incidents in the first race, it set the _ nice. the incidents in the first race, it set the tone - nice. the incidents in the first race, it set the tone for- nice. the incidents in the first race, it set the tone for the l nice. the incidents in the first. race, it set the tone for the race and it_ race, it set the tone for the race and it was— race, it set the tone for the race and it was not— race, it set the tone for the race and it was not nice _ race, it set the tone for the race and it was not nice to— race, it set the tone for the race and it was not nice to watch. - and it was not nice to watch. however. _ and it was not nice to watch. however. i_ and it was not nice to watch. however, ithink— and it was not nice to watch. however, i think what - and it was not nice to watch. - however, i think what happened in the lead _ however, i think what happened in the lead up — however, i think what happened in the teed up to— however, i think what happened in the lead up to the _ however, i think what happened in the lead up to the race _ however, i think what happened in the lead up to the race was - however, i think what happened in the lead up to the race was a - the lead up to the race was a contributing _ the lead up to the race was a

contributing factor, - the lead up to the race was a contributing factor, i- the lead up to the race was a i contributing factor, i completely agree _ contributing factor, i completely agree with — contributing factor, i completely agree with everything _ contributing factor, i completely agree with everything sandy - contributing factor, i completely. agree with everything sandy said, these _ agree with everything sandy said, these horses, _ agree with everything sandy said, these horses, they— agree with everything sandy said, these horses, they get _ agree with everything sandy said, these horses, they get excited, . agree with everything sandy said, i these horses, they get excited, they know what _ these horses, they get excited, they know what they _ these horses, they get excited, they know what they are _ these horses, they get excited, they know what they are there _ these horses, they get excited, they know what they are there to - these horses, they get excited, they know what they are there to do. - these horses, they get excited, they know what they are there to do. you put them _ know what they are there to do. you put them in — know what they are there to do. you put them in the _ know what they are there to do. you put them in the parade _ know what they are there to do. you put them in the parade ring, - put them in the parade ring, they know_ put them in the parade ring, they know they— put them in the parade ring, they know they are _ put them in the parade ring, they know they are going _ put them in the parade ring, they know they are going out - put them in the parade ring, they know they are going out to - put them in the parade ring, they know they are going out to race. i put them in the parade ring, they- know they are going out to race. and then you _ know they are going out to race. and then you disrupt— know they are going out to race. and then you disrupt their _ know they are going out to race. and then you disrupt their routine - know they are going out to race. and then you disrupt their routine and - then you disrupt their routine and it then _ then you disrupt their routine and it then att— then you disrupt their routine and it then all became _ then you disrupt their routine and it then all became a _ then you disrupt their routine and it then all became a little - then you disrupt their routine and it then all became a little bit - it then all became a little bit rushed _ it then all became a little bit rushed amt _ it then all became a little bit rushed. and i— it then all became a little bit rushed. and i believe - it then all became a little bit rushed. and i believe that. it then all became a little bit rushed. and i believe that it| it then all became a little bit - rushed. and i believe that it was a contributing — rushed. and i believe that it was a contributing factor— rushed. and i believe that it was a contributing factor to— rushed. and i believe that it was a contributing factor to what - rushed. and i believe that it was a . contributing factor to what happened in the _ contributing factor to what happened in the race — contributing factor to what happened in the race the _ contributing factor to what happened in the race. .. contributing factor to what happened in the race. ., contributing factor to what happened in the race. . , in the race. the fact that they were made hyper. _ in the race. the fact that they were made hyper, concerned _ in the race. the fact that they were made hyper, concerned and - in the race. the fact that they were l made hyper, concerned and confused by the hullabaloo? i made hyper, concerned and confused by the hullabaloo?_ by the hullabaloo? i think so. it ut them by the hullabaloo? i think so. it put them out — by the hullabaloo? i think so. it put them out of _ by the hullabaloo? i think so. it put them out of their _ by the hullabaloo? i think so. it put them out of their routine, l by the hullabaloo? i think so. iti put them out of their routine, it -ot put them out of their routine, it got there — put them out of their routine, it got there more _ put them out of their routine, it got there more excited - put them out of their routine, it got there more excited because put them out of their routine, it - got there more excited because they were in— got there more excited because they were in there — got there more excited because they were in there for— got there more excited because they were in there for longer. _ got there more excited because they were in there for longer. it— got there more excited because they were in there for longer. it was - were in there for longer. it was also _ were in there for longer. it was also quite _ were in there for longer. it was also quite warm, _ were in there for longer. it was also quite warm, so— were in there for longer. it was also quite warm, so if- were in there for longer. it was also quite warm, so if you - were in there for longer. it was also quite warm, so if you opti were in there for longer. it was - also quite warm, so if you opt them would _ also quite warm, so if you opt them would have — also quite warm, so if you opt them would have got— also quite warm, so if you opt them would have got hot. _ also quite warm, so if you opt them would have got hot. not _ also quite warm, so if you opt them would have got hot. not all- would have got hot. not all horses would _ would have got hot. not all horses would have — would have got hot. not all horses would have been— would have got hot. not all horses would have been affected - would have got hot. not all horses would have been affected by- would have got hot. not all horses would have been affected by it, i would have got hot. not all horses. would have been affected by it, some of them _ would have been affected by it, some of them would — would have been affected by it, some of them would have _ would have been affected by it, some of them would have been _ would have been affected by it, some of them would have been perfectly i of them would have been perfectly fine. of them would have been perfectly fine a _ of them would have been perfectly fine a number— of them would have been perfectly fine. a number of— of them would have been perfectly fine. a number of them _ of them would have been perfectly fine. a number of them would - of them would have been perfectly| fine. a number of them would have -ot fine. a number of them would have got factored — fine. a number of them would have got factored-— got factored. sandy thompson, do think it was _ got factored. sandy thompson, do think it was a _ got factored. sandy thompson, do think it was a factor? _ got factored. sandy thompson, do think it was a factor? it _ got factored. sandy thompson, do think it was a factor? it was - got factored. sandy thompson, do think it was a factor? it was a - think it was a factor? it was a factor. think it was a factor? it was a factor- the —

think it was a factor? it was a factor. the horses _ think it was a factor? it was a factor. the horses have - think it was a factor? it was a factor. the horses have a - think it was a factor? it was a factor. the horses have a set| factor. the horses have a set routine. _ factor. the horses have a set routine, we walked around the parade rin-, routine, we walked around the parade ring, the _ routine, we walked around the parade ring, the jockey gets on and they go on ring, the jockey gets on and they go oh the _ ring, the jockey gets on and they go on the course, they go to the start. they— on the course, they go to the start. they look— on the course, they go to the start. they look at— on the course, they go to the start. they look at the fence, they get tracked — they look at the fence, they get tracked and get taken in. what happened on saturday is that we got them down to the paddock, it was a warm _ them down to the paddock, it was a warm day, — them down to the paddock, it was a warm day, and we were told people had glued _ warm day, and we were told people had glued himself to the fence, we didn't— had glued himself to the fence, we didn't know how long it was going to be. didn't know how long it was going to be we _ didn't know how long it was going to be we took— didn't know how long it was going to be. we took the horse back to the stable, _ be. we took the horse back to the stable, because it was a warm day, we washed — stable, because it was a warm day, we washed them with water and then all of a _ we washed them with water and then all of a sudden we got the call that we were _ all of a sudden we got the call that we were to — all of a sudden we got the call that we were to be back in the paddock. so, suddenly we were putting the saddle _ so, suddenly we were putting the saddle back garden, in a hurry, going _ saddle back garden, in a hurry, going as — saddle back garden, in a hurry, going as fast as we could to the paddock — going as fast as we could to the paddock. we got to the public and we were the _ paddock. we got to the public and we were the last day because i stables at the _ were the last day because i stables at the far— were the last day because i stables at the far end of the stables. —— we -ot at the far end of the stables. —— we got to— at the far end of the stables. —— we got to the _ at the far end of the stables. —— we got to the paddock. he was straight out onto— got to the paddock. he was straight out onto the racecourse. got down to the start _ out onto the racecourse. got down to the start and — out onto the racecourse. got down to the start and everybody was very

uptight — the start and everybody was very u tiaht. ., the start and everybody was very utiuht. ., ,, the start and everybody was very utiuht. ., uptight. could you tell he was... could you _ uptight. could you tell he was... could you tell— uptight. could you tell he was... could you tell he _ uptight. could you tell he was... could you tell he was _ uptight. could you tell he was... could you tell he was hyper? - uptight. could you tell he was... could you tell he was hyper? if l uptight. could you tell he was... l could you tell he was hyper? if he was not hyper, would you have considered not having him run at all? he considered not having him run at all? . . �* considered not having him run at all? . , �* ., considered not having him run at all? . , �* . , , considered not having him run at all? ., , �* ., , , . considered not having him run at all? . i, . all? he wasn't that hyper. when ryan not onto all? he wasn't that hyper. when ryan got onto him. — all? he wasn't that hyper. when ryan got onto him. going _ all? he wasn't that hyper. when ryan got onto him, going down _ all? he wasn't that hyper. when ryan got onto him, going down to - all? he wasn't that hyper. when ryan got onto him, going down to the - got onto him, going down to the start, _ got onto him, going down to the start, he — got onto him, going down to the start, he was quite happy. horses often _ start, he was quite happy. horses often get — start, he was quite happy. horses often get hyper going to the start. at other— often get hyper going to the start. at other meetings, it is less experienced horses and things. any sportsman— experienced horses and things. any sportsman will tell you that the worst _ sportsman will tell you that the worst trit— sportsman will tell you that the worst bit about the time of day is the weighting. once you start racing. — the weighting. once you start racing, everything settles down. once _ racing, everything settles down. once the — racing, everything settles down. once the horse jumps the first fence. — once the horse jumps the first fence, everything settles down. but this wasn't— fence, everything settles down. but this wasn't able to happen because they got— this wasn't able to happen because they got down to the start and everybody was milling around, nobody knew what _ everybody was milling around, nobody knew what was going to happen. it is ma hem of

knew what was going to happen. it s mayhem of the start, but i suppose what some people would argue is that it is mayhem in the race. that's what it's all about. it's crazy, the whole thing is. and that's part of the attraction. there is a kind of crazy stampede about it. it is adrenaline fuelled for the viewer. goodness knows what it is like for the horse. before you go, it has been great having you on, i would like you to hear simon in north london. tell is what you think. go on, simon. are you there? so now, for now, i go on, simon. are you there? so now, for now. i have — go on, simon. are you there? so now, for now, i have got _ go on, simon. are you there? so now, for now, i have got the _ go on, simon. are you there? so now, for now, i have got the horsing - for now, i have got the horsing authority— for now, i have got the horsing authority on _ for now, i have got the horsing authority on tv _ for now, i have got the horsing authority on tv who _ for now, i have got the horsing authority on tv who are - for now, i have got the horsing authority on tv who are trying i for now, i have got the horsing i authority on tv who are trying to blame _ authority on tv who are trying to blame this— authority on tv who are trying to blame this carnage _ authority on tv who are trying to blame this carnage on _ authority on tv who are trying to blame this carnage on these - blame this carnage on these protesters! _ blame this carnage on these protesters! because - blame this carnage on these protesters! because that - blame this carnage on these protesters! because that is. blame this carnage on these - protesters! because that is what they are — protesters! because that is what they are trying _ protesters! because that is what they are trying to _ protesters! because that is what they are trying to do. _ protesters! because that is what they are trying to do. tell- protesters! because that is what they are trying to do.— protesters! because that is what

they are trying to do. tell me more. i have they are trying to do. tell me more. i have given — they are trying to do. tell me more. i have given you _ they are trying to do. tell me more. i have given you all— they are trying to do. tell me more. i have given you all the _ they are trying to do. tell me more. i have given you all the facts. - they are trying to do. tell me more. i have given you all the facts. you . i have given you all the facts. you know _ i have given you all the facts. you know. on — i have given you all the facts. you know. . . , ,., i have given you all the facts. you know. �* ., , i have given you all the facts. you know. . . , . ,, , know. an absolute 'oke! it happens every single _ know. an absolute 'oke! it happens every single year! _ know. an absolute joke! it happens every single year! this _ know. an absolute joke! it happens every single year! this race - know. an absolute joke! it happens every single year! this race is - know. an absolute joke! it happens every single year! this race is a - every single year! this race is a spectacle — every single year! this race is a spectacle of— every single year! this race is a spectacle of horses _ every single year! this race is a spectacle of horses getting - every single year! this race is a . spectacle of horses getting killed. it is disgusting! _ spectacle of horses getting killed. it is disgusting!— it is disgusting! could i add to that? i it is disgusting! could i add to that? l think _ it is disgusting! could i add to that? l think it _ it is disgusting! could i add to that? l think it is _ it is disgusting! could i add to that? i think it is hardly - that? i think it is hardly surprising that the jockey association is trying to blame these people for... association is trying to blame these people for- - -_ association is trying to blame these people for... loose horses! we have had jockeys — people for... loose horses! we have had jockeys on _ people for... loose horses! we have had jockeys on board... _ people for... loose horses! we have had jockeys on board... yeah, - people for... loose horses! we have had jockeys on board... yeah, i- had jockeys on board... yeah, i don't think— had jockeys on board... yeah, i don't think many _ had jockeys on board... yeah, i don't think many viewers - had jockeys on board... yeah, i don't think many viewers would believe that animal rising caused the accidents, personally. 50. the accidents, personally. so, directl , the accidents, personally. so, directly. we — the accidents, personally. so, directly, we have _ the accidents, personally. so, directly, we have got sandy there, you have heard about his passion for his animals, you have heard about how distraught and distressed he was as he was behind the black screen with that poor, beautiful creature,

do you appreciate what he is saying? he cares as much as you do. simon? i am not... yeah, nicky, nikki, i appreciate, _ simon? i am not... yeah, nicky, nikki, i appreciate, i— simon? i am not... yeah, nicky, nikki, i appreciate, i appreciate. nikki, i appreciate, i appreciate that the — nikki, i appreciate, i appreciate that the people _ nikki, i appreciate, i appreciate that the people in _ nikki, i appreciate, i appreciate that the people in racing, - nikki, ! appreciate, i appreciate that the people in racing, of- nikki, i appreciate, i appreciate - that the people in racing, of course they love _ that the people in racing, of course they love their— that the people in racing, of course they love their horses, _ that the people in racing, of course they love their horses, of - that the people in racing, of course they love their horses, of course i they love their horses, of course they— they love their horses, of course they don't— they love their horses, of course they don't want _ they love their horses, of course they don't want their _ they love their horses, of course they don't want their horses - they love their horses, of course they don't want their horses to l they love their horses, of course i they don't want their horses to die, but this— they don't want their horses to die, but this race — they don't want their horses to die, but this race is _ they don't want their horses to die, but this race is now— they don't want their horses to die, but this race is now completely - they don't want their horses to die, but this race is now completely out| but this race is now completely out of order _ but this race is now completely out of order do — but this race is now completely out of order do you _ but this race is now completely out of order. do you know, _ but this race is now completely out of order. do you know, on - but this race is now completely out. of order. do you know, on saturday, i of order. do you know, on saturday, i actually _ of order. do you know, on saturday, i actually started _ of order. do you know, on saturday, i actually started to _ of order. do you know, on saturday, i actually started to scream - of order. do you know, on saturday, i actually started to scream when . of order. do you know, on saturday, i actually started to scream when i l i actually started to scream when i saw all _ i actually started to scream when i saw all the — i actually started to scream when i saw all the horses _ i actually started to scream when i saw all the horses careering - i actually started to scream when i saw all the horses careering down| i actually started to scream when i l saw all the horses careering down to canal— saw all the horses careering down to canal turn~ — saw all the horses careering down to canalturn i— saw all the horses careering down to canal turn. i actually _ saw all the horses careering down to canal turn. i actually started - saw all the horses careering down to canal turn. i actually started to - canal turn. i actually started to scream — canal turn. i actually started to scream if _ canal turn. i actually started to scream if i _ canal turn. i actually started to scream. if i knew— canal turn. i actually started to scream. if i knew what - canal turn. i actually started to scream. if i knew what was - canal turn. i actually started to i scream. if i knew what was going canal turn. i actually started to - scream. if i knew what was going to happen, _ scream. if i knew what was going to happen, i_ scream. if i knew what was going to happen. i could _ scream. if i knew what was going to happen, i could see _ scream. if i knew what was going to happen, i could see the _ scream. if i knew what was going to happen, i could see the horses - scream. if i knew what was going to happen, i could see the horses arei happen, i could see the horses are veering _ happen, i could see the horses are veering this — happen, i could see the horses are veering this way— happen, i could see the horses are veering this way and _ happen, i could see the horses are veering this way and that - happen, i could see the horses are veering this way and that way. - happen, i could see the horses are veering this way and that way. canj happen, i could see the horses arei veering this way and that way. canl veering this way and that way. can i 'ust ask veering this way and that way. can i just ask simon _ veering this way and that way. can i just ask simon one _ veering this way and that way. can i just ask simon one thing? - veering this way and that way. just ask simon one thing? how veering this way and that waym. just ask simon one thing? how many grand nationals have you ever

watched? do you watch it every year? anyway, the point i am making... i anyway, the point i am making... i haven't watched the grand national for decades, — haven't watched the grand national for decades, i— haven't watched the grand national for decades, i stopped _ haven't watched the grand national for decades, i stopped watching - haven't watched the grand national for decades, i stopped watching it. for decades, i stopped watching it at the _ for decades, i stopped watching it at the start— for decades, i stopped watching it at the start of— for decades, i stopped watching it at the start of the _ for decades, i stopped watching it at the start of the century, - for decades, i stopped watching it at the start of the century, cos . for decades, i stopped watching it at the start of the century, cos i. at the start of the century, cos i -ot at the start of the century, cos i got sick— at the start of the century, cos i got sick of— at the start of the century, cos i got sick of seeing _ at the start of the century, cos i got sick of seeing horses - at the start of the century, cos i got sick of seeing horses get. got sick of seeing horses get killed — got sick of seeing horses get killed i_ got sick of seeing horses get killed. i used _ got sick of seeing horses get killed. i used to— got sick of seeing horses get killed. i used to absolutely. got sick of seeing horses get i killed. i used to absolutely love red rum — killed. i used to absolutely love red rum so _ killed. i used to absolutely love red rum. killed. i used to absolutely love red rum, ., killed. i used to absolutely love red rum. . , , red rum. so you are completely disillusioned. _ red rum. so you are completely disillusioned. a _ red rum. so you are completely disillusioned. a last _ red rum. so you are completely disillusioned. a last word - red rum. so you are completely disillusioned. a last word with i red rum. so you are completely i disillusioned. a last word with you, then we will regroup and go to the news and sport and come back with more calls. i thought on what you have heard. i more calls. i thought on what you have heard-— more calls. i thought on what you have heard. ., ., . . have heard. i thought on what i have heard is, have heard. i thought on what i have heard is. sadly _ have heard. i thought on what i have heard is, sadly we _ have heard. i thought on what i have heard is, sadly we lost _ have heard. i thought on what i have heard is, sadly we lost hill— have heard. i thought on what i have heard is, sadly we lost hill 16. - heard is, sadly we lost hill 16. thank— heard is, sadly we lost hill 16. thank goodness we are not talking about _ thank goodness we are not talking about a _ thank goodness we are not talking about a dead jockey or badly injured jockey, _ about a dead jockey or badly injured jockey, because many people involved in racing _ jockey, because many people involved in racing and throw out the country are convinced that the protest caused — are convinced that the protest caused a _ are convinced that the protest caused a lot of the trouble in this

race _ caused a lot of the trouble in this race. ., ~x caused a lot of the trouble in this race. . ., _, ., , race. ok, thanks for coming on this mornin: , race. ok, thanks for coming on this morning. the _ race. ok, thanks for coming on this morning, the british _ race. ok, thanks for coming on this morning, the british horseracing i morning, the british horseracing authority say the following. "we respect the right of anyone to hold views about our sport, but we robustly condemn the reckless and potentially harmful actions of a handful of people in disrupting the race at a time when horses were in the parade ring." "love and respect for horses is at the heart of everything we do." "the grand national is and always will be an iconic sporting event, and the actions of a small number of people will do nothing to diminish its huge and enduring international appeal." they also say the fatal injury rate in horse racing had fallen by more than a third in the last 20 years to 0.2% of runners dying. more to come, good morning, it is 9:34am. and here is the news from nick hatfield. the man who trained the horse which died in the grand national has blamed protesters for its death.

the race at aintree had to be delayed after demonstrators got on the track. the group animal rising says its action was aimed at preventing harm to horses. rishi sunak will say later that an anti—maths mindset is damaging the economy. the prime minister is setting up a review to ensure maths is studied by all students in england up to the age of 18. labour says the conservatives have repeatedly missed targets on recruiting more maths teachers. a report by imperial college london is warning that air pollution causes harm to people at all stages of life. they say certain particles can lead to miscarriages, reduce sperm count and stunt lung growth in children. the most powerful rocket ever developed is due to be launched in texas later. starship, which is uncrewed, has been built by elon musk�*s spacex company. katie smith has the sport. mikel arteta says his arsenal players got too comfortable as they were pegged back from an early 2—0 lead against west ham to draw 2—2. it's the second game in a row that's happened and of course

has implications for the top of the premier league. manchester city sit just four points behind them now, with a game in hand — the two sides meet next wednesday. while manchester united went back to third after beating nottingham forest 2—0 and chelsea booked their spot in the women's fa cup final with a win over aston villa. mark allen says winning the snooker world championship to complete the triple crown would mean everything. he begins his campaign today against china's world number 36 fan zhengyi. and in golf, matt fitzpatrick says the pga tour's rbc heritage event in south carolina is the one he wanted to win the most. well, last night he did, beating jordan spieth on the third hole of a sudden—death playoff. fitzpatrick used to holiday with his family at a resort on the island where the tournament is held.

we are talking about special overrides to get in touch. —— were told because national want to protest, to get in touch. low traffic neighbourhoods, or ltns. they sound pretty innocuous —

they close roads to traffic with bolllards to try and cut congestion and pollution. but they have provoked fury. designed to transform the community, encourage people not to use cars. but they have provoked fury. bollards vandalised, destroyed, set fire to, arguments between local residents and more recently mass protests. campaigners say they set neighbour against neighbour and are tearing communities apart. critics say all they do is encourage cars to drive down other roads instead. is there one near where you live? have they helped or hindered your local area? this morning, should we ban the bollards?

let's come to some of the texts, what are people saying? a fake, i am not an avid watcher, but i switched on i felt shocked that this could possibly be ok. and this text says, anyone involved in the so—called grand national has no love for horses, it is a national disgrace, no who loved a horse would let them run in such a cool and disgusting event, it is about money and betting. david from leicester, it is difficult, but the track can be a real challenge for the horses, they may be pushed hard and campaigners are trying to stop the dreadful deaths of horses. and this one,

rubbish! i will tell you what lees says, this is rubbish, horses always have been and always will be herd animals, it is a fact. so let's deal in facts, actually, opinions, animals, it is a fact. so let's deal infacts, actually, opinions, kevin blake, how are you doing this morning?— blake, how are you doing this mornin: ? ,., ., ., .,, blake, how are you doing this mornin: ? ., .,, i. blake, how are you doing this mornine? ., .,, i. . morning? good morning, hope you are well. ben newman, _ morning? good morning, hope you are well. ben newman, a _ morning? good morning, hope you are well. ben newman, a spokesperson i morning? good morning, hope you are| well. ben newman, a spokesperson for animal rising. — well. ben newman, a spokesperson for animal rising. is _ well. ben newman, a spokesperson for animal rising, is still— well. ben newman, a spokesperson for animal rising, is still with _ well. ben newman, a spokesperson for animal rising, is still with us. - animal rising, is still with us. kevin in manchester, margaret in barking. let's get some talking barking! and alison in abingdon as well, let's go with alison, margaret and kevin, then we will come to ben and kevin, then we will come to ben and the other kevin. irate and kevin, then we will come to ben and the other kevin.— and kevin, then we will come to ben and the other kevin. we have got two kevin's, and the other kevin. we have got two kevin's. nicky! _ and the other kevin. we have got two kevin's, nicky! two _ and the other kevin. we have got two kevin's, nicky! two too _ and the other kevin. we have got two

kevin's, nicky! two too many! - and the other kevin. we have got two kevin's, nicky! two too many! kevin, | kevin's, nicky! two too many! kevin, ou eo kevin's, nicky! two too many! kevin, you go first. — kevin's, nicky! two too many! kevin, you go first. then- — kevin's, nicky! two too many! kevin, you go first, then. the _ kevin's, nicky! two too many! kevin, you go first, then. the view - kevin's, nicky! two too many! kevin, you go first, then. the view from - you go first, then. the view from manchester. you go first, then. the view from manchester-— you go first, then. the view from manchester. . , . , manchester. right, what i will say, nic , the manchester. right, what i will say, nicky. the only _ manchester. right, what i will say, nicky, the only thing _ manchester. right, what i will say, nicky, the only thing constant - manchester. right, what i will say, nicky, the only thing constant in i nicky, the only thing constant in life is change, so i got in on saturday, i sat down, watched the grand national, yeah? all a certain racing team were talking about on a certain channel, yeah? was the welfare of the horses, yeah? at home they are treated like millionaires and given what they want, yeah? but the one point that everyone is missing, why don't theyjust lower the fences? just lower them. meiji. the fences? just lower them. well, becher's brook, _ the fences? just lower them. well, becher's brook, famously, - the fences? just lower them. well, becher's brook, famously, of - becher's brook, famously, of course... i becher's brook, famously, of course- - -_ becher's brook, famously, of course- - -— becher's brook, famously, of course... ~ ., , ., course... i know everything has got histo , course... i know everything has got history. nicky. _ course. .. i know everything has got history. nicky. all— course... i know everything has got history, nicky, all right? _ course. .. i know everything has got history, nicky, all right? but- course. .. i know everything has got history, nicky, all right? but if- history, nicky, all right? but if they want to keep hold of a generation of people watching the racing, yeah? because as you know, yeah? we have got tiktok, instagram, all of that will be going, and there is a video is going on, yeah? now,

with the height of the fences and what them horses have to go through on the day, especially when it is a hot day and the ground is rock hard, yeah? so they have no choice but to lower the fences if they want to keep a generation of racegoers. nicky, i could take that question, if you _ nicky, i could take that question, if you like. — nicky, ! could take that question, if you like. i— nicky, i could take that question, if you like-— if you like. i know you would love to take that _ if you like. i know you would love to take that question! _ if you like. i know you would love to take that question! but - if you like. i know you would love to take that question! but i - if you like. i know you would love to take that question! but i do i to take that question! but i do understand — to take that question! but i do understand the _ to take that question! but i do understand the history - to take that question! but i do understand the history of - to take that question! but i do understand the history of the l to take that question! but i do - understand the history of the race race? . ., �* . �*, understand the history of the race race? ., ., �* . �*, �* understand the history of the race race? . ., �* . �*, �* race? hang on, becher's brook are central to what _ race? hang on, becher's brook are central to what i _ race? hang on, becher's brook are central to what i was _ race? hang on, becher's brook are central to what i was saying, - race? hang on, becher's brook are central to what i was saying, no, i central to what i was saying, no, don't apologise, i am the one who should be apologising. it has been notorious and controversial over the years, they have altered it, in tune and chiming with the change that people are calling for. i hear what you're saying, i want to hear margaret and alison on that, then i will come to you, kevin. isn't it part of the thrill, margaret, the derring—do, the thrill? trio. part of the thrill, margaret, the derring-do, the thrill?- part of the thrill, margaret, the derring-do, the thrill? no, i don't like any horse _ derring-do, the thrill? no, i don't like any horse racing _ derring-do, the thrill? no, i don't

like any horse racing at _ derring-do, the thrill? no, i don't like any horse racing at all, - derring-do, the thrill? no, i don't like any horse racing at all, i - like any horse racing at all, i don't — like any horse racing at all, i don't like _ like any horse racing at all, i don't like the way they whipped them. — don't like the way they whipped them. to— don't like the way they whipped them, to make them go faster, i think— them, to make them go faster, i think it _ them, to make them go faster, i think it is — them, to make them go faster, i think it is barbaric and it should be banned, and i agree with the other— be banned, and i agree with the other gentlemen, though, lower defences. — other gentlemen, though, lower defences. because 40 horses all running — defences. because 40 horses all running at — defences. because 40 horses all running at the same time, they will want _ running at the same time, they will want to— running at the same time, they will want to get— running at the same time, they will want to get over the fences, so there _ want to get over the fences, so there will— want to get over the fences, so there will be animals killed or hurt. — there will be animals killed or hurt. ., ., there will be animals killed or hurt. ., . yeah! there will be animals killed or hurt. ., .. yeah! . ., hurt. you want it banned? yeah! what does that mean? _ hurt. you want it banned? yeah! what does that mean? well, _ hurt. you want it banned? yeah! what does that mean? well, not _ hurt. you want it banned? yeah! what does that mean? well, not to - hurt. you want it banned? yeah! what does that mean? well, not to ban - hurt. you want it banned? yeah! what does that mean? well, not to ban it, i does that mean? well, not to ban it, because there _ does that mean? well, not to ban it, because there are _ does that mean? well, not to ban it, because there are people _ does that mean? well, not to ban it, because there are people who - does that mean? well, not to ban it, because there are people who do - does that mean? well, not to ban it, | because there are people who do like horse _ because there are people who do like horse racing, but i don't like it at all, horse racing, but i don't like it at all. any— horse racing, but i don't like it at all, any horse racing. i know to run. _ all, any horse racing. i know to run. but — all, any horse racing. i know to run. but are _ all, any horse racing. i know to run, but are you still have a horse, but unfortunately passed away, and i used to _ but unfortunately passed away, and i used to gallop him, obviously, because — used to gallop him, obviously, because that is what horses do. but i because that is what horses do. but i would _ because that is what horses do. but i would not — because that is what horses do. but i would not let my horse into the grand _ i would not let my horse into the grand national. because i think it isjust— grand national. because i think it isjust for— grand national. because i think it isjust for money. grand national. because i think it is just for money. money and... grand national. because i think it isjust for money. money and... bid isjust for money. money and... did ou is just for money. money and... you watch it? isjust for money. money and... did you watch it? no, _ isjust for money. money and... did you watch it? no, i—

isjust for money. money and... did you watch it? no, i don't _ isjust for money. money and... did you watch it? no, i don't watch - isjust for money. money and... did you watch it? no, i don't watch any| you watch it? no, i don't watch any horse racing _ you watch it? no, i don't watch any horse racing at _ you watch it? no, i don't watch any horse racing at all, _ you watch it? no, i don't watch any horse racing at all, i _ you watch it? no, i don't watch any horse racing at all, i don't - you watch it? no, i don't watch any horse racing at all, i don't like - horse racing at all, i don't like it. . , it. alison, i will be right with ou, it. alison, i will be right with you. kevin. _ it. alison, i will be right with you, kevin, we _ it. alison, i will be right with you, kevin, we have - it. alison, ! will be right with you, kevin, we have still- it. alison, i will be right with you, kevin, we have still got it. alison, i will be right with - you, kevin, we have still got ben and kevin can speak to you about it as well. alison, what do you think? well, sort of my background to the whole _ well, sort of my background to the whole race — well, sort of my background to the whole race is— well, sort of my background to the whole race is when _ well, sort of my background to the whole race is when i— well, sort of my background to the whole race is when i was— well, sort of my background to the whole race is when i was working, i whole race is when i was working, the office — whole race is when i was working, the office would _ whole race is when i was working, the office would often _ whole race is when i was working, the office would often have - whole race is when i was working, the office would often have a - the office would often have a sweepstake. _ the office would often have a sweepstake, and _ the office would often have a sweepstake, and i— the office would often have a sweepstake, and i always - the office would often have a i sweepstake, and i always said the office would often have a - sweepstake, and i always said that i wouldn't _ sweepstake, and i always said that i wouldn't take — sweepstake, and i always said that i wouldn't take part, _ sweepstake, and i always said that i wouldn't take part, i— sweepstake, and i always said that i wouldn't take part, i wasn't - sweepstake, and i always said that i wouldn't take part, i wasn't a - sweepstake, and i always said that i wouldn't take part, i wasn't a partyi wouldn't take part, i wasn't a party pooper. _ wouldn't take part, i wasn't a party pooper. but— wouldn't take part, i wasn't a party pooper. but i— wouldn't take part, i wasn't a party pooper. but i have _ wouldn't take part, i wasn't a party pooper, but i have always- wouldn't take part, i wasn't a party pooper, but i have always felt - wouldn't take part, i wasn't a party| pooper, but i have always felt that, as kevin _ pooper, but i have always felt that, as kevin was — pooper, but i have always felt that, as kevin was saying _ pooper, but i have always felt that, as kevin was saying about - pooper, but i have always felt that, as kevin was saying about the - pooper, but i have always felt that, as kevin was saying about the size i as kevin was saying about the size of the _ as kevin was saying about the size of the fences. _ as kevin was saying about the size of the fences, but _ as kevin was saying about the size of the fences, but i— as kevin was saying about the size of the fences, but i actually- as kevin was saying about the size | of the fences, but i actually texted in talking _ of the fences, but i actually texted in talking about _ of the fences, but i actually texted in talking about some _ of the fences, but i actually texted in talking about some of— of the fences, but i actually texted in talking about some of the - of the fences, but i actually texted in talking about some of the risk. in talking about some of the risk assessment— in talking about some of the risk assessment that _ in talking about some of the risk assessment that if _ in talking about some of the risk assessment that if the _ in talking about some of the risk assessment that if the jockeys i in talking about some of the risk. assessment that if the jockeys were actually _ assessment that if the jockeys were actually told — assessment that if the jockeys were actually told prior— assessment that if the jockeys were actually told prior to _ assessment that if the jockeys were actually told prior to the _ assessment that if the jockeys were actually told prior to the race - assessment that if the jockeys were actually told prior to the race that i actually told prior to the race that if they— actually told prior to the race that if they were — actually told prior to the race that if they were to _ actually told prior to the race that if they were to fall _ actually told prior to the race that if they were to fall off _ actually told prior to the race that if they were to fall off their - if they were to fall off their horses— if they were to fall off their horses and _ if they were to fall off their horses and break— if they were to fall off their horses and break their - if they were to fall off theirj horses and break their leg, if they were to fall off their - horses and break their leg, would they be _ horses and break their leg, would they be prepared _ horses and break their leg, would they be prepared to _ horses and break their leg, would they be prepared to accept - horses and break their leg, would they be prepared to accept the i horses and break their leg, would i they be prepared to accept the fact that they— they be prepared to accept the fact that they would _ they be prepared to accept the fact that they would have _ they be prepared to accept the fact that they would have to _ they be prepared to accept the fact that they would have to be - they be prepared to accept the fact l that they would have to be humanely euthanised? —

that they would have to be humanely euthanised? and _ that they would have to be humanely euthanised? and i— that they would have to be humanely euthanised? and i wonder— that they would have to be humanely euthanised? and i wonder how- that they would have to be humanely euthanised? and i wonder how manyj euthanised? and i wonder how many jockeys— euthanised? and i wonder how many jockeys would — euthanised? and i wonder how many jockeys would actually— euthanised? and i wonder how many jockeys would actually weigh - euthanised? and i wonder how many jockeys would actually weigh up - euthanised? and i wonder how many jockeys would actually weigh up that| jockeys would actually weigh up that sort of _ jockeys would actually weigh up that sort of risk— jockeys would actually weigh up that sort of risk and _ jockeys would actually weigh up that sort of risk and never _ jockeys would actually weigh up that sort of risk and never get _ jockeys would actually weigh up that sort of risk and never get on - jockeys would actually weigh up that sort of risk and never get on a - sort of risk and never get on a horse. — sort of risk and never get on a horse. because _ sort of risk and never get on a horse. because at _ sort of risk and never get on a horse. because at least - sort of risk and never get on a i horse. because at least they... sort of risk and never get on a - horse. because at least they... they have _ horse. because at least they... they have a _ horse. because at least they... they have a choice. — horse. because at least they... they have a choice. [5— horse. because at least they... they have a choice-— have a choice. is it necessary to distinguish _ have a choice. is it necessary to distinguish between _ have a choice. is it necessary to distinguish between human - have a choice. is it necessary to i distinguish between human beings have a choice. is it necessary to - distinguish between human beings and equine beings, do you think? it is equine beings, do you think? it is to do with — equine beings, do you think? it is to do with choice. we have the facility — to do with choice. we have the facility to — to do with choice. we have the facility to actually _ to do with choice. we have the facility to actually weigh - to do with choice. we have the facility to actually weigh up - to do with choice. we have the | facility to actually weigh up the risks. _ facility to actually weigh up the risks, whereas _ facility to actually weigh up the risks, whereas animals - facility to actually weigh up the risks, whereas animals don't, i facility to actually weigh up the i risks, whereas animals don't, and animals— risks, whereas animals don't, and animals are — risks, whereas animals don't, and animals are not _ risks, whereas animals don't, and animals are not aware _ risks, whereas animals don't, and animals are not aware that - risks, whereas animals don't, and animals are not aware that that i risks, whereas animals don't, and animals are not aware that that isj animals are not aware that that is going _ animals are not aware that that is going to _ animals are not aware that that is going to be — animals are not aware that that is going to be the _ animals are not aware that that is going to be the consequence - animals are not aware that that is going to be the consequence if. animals are not aware that that is l going to be the consequence if they break— going to be the consequence if they break their— going to be the consequence if they break their leg. _ going to be the consequence if they break their leg. and _ going to be the consequence if they breaktheir leg. and i— going to be the consequence if they break their leg. and i think- going to be the consequence if they break their leg. and i think we - going to be the consequence if they break their leg. and i think we are i break their leg. and i think we are ina break their leg. and i think we are in a position— break their leg. and i think we are in a position where, _ break their leg. and i think we are in a position where, with - break their leg. and i think we are in a position where, with our- in a position where, with our knowledge. _ in a position where, with our knowledge, we _ in a position where, with our knowledge, we should - in a position where, with our knowledge, we should be i in a position where, with our- knowledge, we should be protecting them all. _ knowledge, we should be protecting them all, because _ knowledge, we should be protecting them all, because they _ knowledge, we should be protecting them all, because they have - knowledge, we should be protecting them all, because they have no - knowledge, we should be protecting them all, because they have no idea that if— them all, because they have no idea that if they— them all, because they have no idea that if they injure _ them all, because they have no idea that if they injure themselves, - them all, because they have no idea that if they injure themselves, that. that if they injure themselves, that is it,

that if they injure themselves, that is it. it _ that if they injure themselves, that is it. it is _ that if they injure themselves, that is it. it is the — that if they injure themselves, that is it, it is the end _ that if they injure themselves, that is it, it is the end of— that if they injure themselves, that is it, it is the end of their- that if they injure themselves, that is it, it is the end of their life. - is it, it is the end of their life. and _ is it, it is the end of their life. and i— is it, it is the end of their life. and i think— is it, it is the end of their life. and i think that— is it, it is the end of their life. and i think that is— is it, it is the end of their life. and i think that is a _ is it, it is the end of their life. and i think that is a big - and i think that is a big responsibility, - and i think that is a big responsibility, as - and i think that is a big responsibility, as a - and i think that is a big. responsibility, as a human and i think that is a big _ responsibility, as a human being, to actually— responsibility, as a human being, to actually know— responsibility, as a human being, to actually know they _ responsibility, as a human being, to actually know they have _ responsibility, as a human being, to actually know they have got... - responsibility, as a human being, to actually know they have got... andi responsibility, as a human being, to actually know they have got... and i think— actually know they have got... and i thinkjockeys — actually know they have got... and i thinkjockeys know— actually know they have got... and i think jockeys know that _ actually know they have got... and i thinkjockeys know that when - actually know they have got... and i thinkjockeys know that when they. thinkjockeys know that when they no, thinkjockeys know that when they go. if— thinkjockeys know that when they go. if they— thinkjockeys know that when they go. iftheyfall— thinkjockeys know that when they go, if they fall off— thinkjockeys know that when they go, if they fall off and _ thinkjockeys know that when they go, if they fall off and break- thinkjockeys know that when they go, if they fall off and break their| go, if they fall off and break their legs. _ go, if they fall off and break their legs. you — go, if they fall off and break their legs. you know. _ go, if they fall off and break their legs, you know, they— go, if they fall off and break their legs, you know, they will- go, if they fall off and break their legs, you know, they will be - go, if they fall off and break their i legs, you know, they will be helped by the _ legs, you know, they will be helped by the nhs — legs, you know, they will be helped bythe nhs and _ legs, you know, they will be helped by the nhs and nursed _ legs, you know, they will be helped by the nhs and nursed back- legs, you know, they will be helped by the nhs and nursed back to - by the nhs and nursed back to health. — by the nhs and nursed back to health. l— by the nhs and nursed back to health. . . . by the nhs and nursed back to health. , . . , ., �* health. i understand what you're sa inc. health. i understand what you're saying- let's _ health. i understand what you're saying- let's get _ health. i understand what you're saying. let's get kevin _ health. i understand what you're saying. let's get kevin and - health. i understand what you're | saying. let's get kevin and kevin and kevin and kevin, kevin blake, just responding to what kevin manchester said, just responding to what kevin manchestersaid, i just responding to what kevin manchester said, i know we would like a word with you about the height of the fences being a problem, kevin blake, racing journalist. problem, kevin blake, racing journalist-— journalist. right, where do i start?! where _ journalist. right, where do i start?! where do _ journalist. right, where do i start?! where do you - journalist. right, where do i| start?! where do you start?! journalist. right, where do i- start?! where do you start?! there is a lot to address _ start?! where do you start?! there is a lot to address here! _ start?! where do you start?! there is a lot to address here! there - is a lot to address here! there really is- _ is a lot to address here! there really is. the _ is a lot to address here! there really is. the fences _ is a lot to address here! there really is. the fences have - is a lot to address here! there | really is. the fences have been lowered significantly and adjusted and modified over many decades. if you look at red rum's grand national in the 19705, any one of his races, completely unrecognisable now, becher's brook i5

completely unrecognisable now, becher's brook is a normal friends are essentially now, it used to be way higher, the drops on the landing site et cetera, everyone involved has been working to reduce risk in this race and they have succeeded. statistically, it has never been safer since the last several modifications after the 2012 race. that is not to say they are finished with it, that is far from the case at all. this race will be examined, like every grand national, and they will look to see if there is anything else they can do to perhaps lower the risk further,, and just to correct kevin, he mentioned the race being run on rock—hard ground, that is factually incorrect, they water the ground artificially if the rain isn't doing the job for them to ensure a safe surface, so that is just not... i ensure a safe surface, so that is just not- - -_ ensure a safe surface, so that is 'ust not... . , . just not... i want understood about that, just not... i want understood about that. because _ just not... i want understood about that, because you _ just not... i want understood about that, because you see _ just not... i want understood about that, because you see them - just not... i want understood about that, because you see them talk i that, because you see them talk about— that, because you see them talk about soft — that, because you see them talk about soft ground _ that, because you see them talk about soft ground when - that, because you see them talk about soft ground when it - that, because you see them talk

about soft ground when it has i that, because you see them talk i about soft ground when it has been racing. _ about soft ground when it has been racing. i_ about soft ground when it has been racing. ididn't— about soft ground when it has been racing. i didn't know— about soft ground when it has been racing. ididn't know they— about soft ground when it has been racing. ididn't know they water- about soft ground when it has been racing. i didn't know they water the ground. _ racing. i didn't know they water the ground. right. _ racing. i didn't know they water the ground. right. there _ racing. ididn't know they water the ground. right. there is— racing. i didn't know they water the ground. right. there is a _ racing. i didn't know they water the ground. right. there is a huge - ground. right. there is a huge effort. — ground. right. there is a huge effort, everyone _ ground. right. there is a huge effort, everyone is— ground. right. there is a huge effort, everyone is so - ground. right. there is a huge - effort, everyone is so conscious... that _ effort, everyone is so conscious... that takes — effort, everyone is so conscious... that takes a — effort, everyone is so conscious... that takes a lot _ effort, everyone is so conscious... that takes a lot of _ effort, everyone is so conscious... that takes a lot of water, - effort, everyone is so conscious... that takes a lot of water, kevin, l that takes a lot of water, kevin, don't _ that takes a lot of water, kevin, don't it? — that takes a lot of water, kevin, don't it? ~ ,,., , that takes a lot of water, kevin, don't it? ~ , , �* ., that takes a lot of water, kevin, don't it? �* , , �* ., ., don't it? absolutely, ben would not be too fond — don't it? absolutely, ben would not be too fond of _ don't it? absolutely, ben would not be too fond of the _ don't it? absolutely, ben would not be too fond of the amount - don't it? absolutely, ben would not be too fond of the amount of- don't it? absolutely, ben would not be too fond of the amount of water| be too fond of the amount of water that goes on, but that is another thing! that goes on, but that is another thin! ~ ., . �* thing! white, ok, on that point, ben is listening. — thing! white, ok, on that point, ben is listening, ben _ thing! white, ok, on that point, ben is listening, ben from _ thing! white, ok, on that point, ben is listening, ben from animal- is listening, ben from animal rising. there is a point. what i should say. — rising. there is a point. what i should say, nicki, _ rising. there is a point. what i should say, nicki, most - rising. there is a point. what i should say, nicki, most of - rising. there is a point. what i should say, nicki, most of the | should say, nicki, most of the tracks would have, on the racecourse, they would have reservoir facilities to allow them to water from their own supplies. ! to water from their own supplies. i got you, let's hear from ben from got you, let's hearfrom ben from animal rising. git got you, let's hear from ben from animal rising.— got you, let's hear from ben from animal rising. all these tiny little details around _ animal rising. all these tiny little details around how— animal rising. all these tiny little details around how much - animal rising. all these tiny little details around how much the - animal rising. all these tiny little i details around how much the grasses watered _ details around how much the grasses watered are missing the picture. i was worried about how this would be received _ was worried about how this would be received before the action, and it has been — received before the action, and it has been staggering. i haven't had a

single _ has been staggering. i haven't had a single person other than a jockey or racehorse _ single person other than a jockey or racehorse in— single person other than a jockey or racehorse injournalist or single person other than a jockey or racehorse in journalist or owner really _ racehorse in journalist or owner really come out against it. come out for the _ really come out against it. come out for the grand national. everyone who causing _ for the grand national. everyone who causing is— for the grand national. everyone who causing is against it. brian may has been _ causing is against it. brian may has been putting out videos. he is causing is against it. brian may has been putting out videos.— been putting out videos. he is a famous animal _ been putting out videos. he is a famous animal rights _ been putting out videos. he is a| famous animal rights supporter, been putting out videos. he is a i famous animal rights supporter, and i am an animal lover, and i think brian does some magnificent stuff, but he is, you know, to use a disparaging term, he would be the usual suspect on this, it is not like, and my goodness, brian may as well, what is going on?! let me ask you a question, kevin, how do you feel, you know, where is your heart on this, a lot of people are saying, ijust wonder if on this, a lot of people are saying, i just wonder if the tide is turning, looking at the texts, how do you feel emotionally when you see something like this happen? are you

a horse lover or a racing lover? filth. a horse lover or a racing lover? 0h, absolutely. — a horse lover or a racing lover? 0h, absolutely. l _ a horse lover or a racing lover? oi absolutely, i breed racehorses, i do this game day in and day out with these animals.— this game day in and day out with these animals. they are incredible sentiment creatures, _ these animals. they are incredible sentiment creatures, wait - these animals. they are incredible sentiment creatures, wait a i these animals. they are incredible l sentiment creatures, wait a minute, sensi and creatures, and they? they know what is going on, they like their own company, any dog lover who only knows a dog will know that, they are marvellous and magical and magnificent and beautiful. how do you feel when one dies in these circumstances in there? terrible, nick, we circumstances in there? terrible, nick. we all _ circumstances in there? terrible, nick, we all do. _ circumstances in there? terrible, nick, we all do. this _ circumstances in there? terrible, nick, we all do. this isn't - circumstances in there? terrible, nick, we all do. this isn't what i nick, we all do. this isn't what anyone sets out to happen. just as if you had a herd of horses in the field, occasionally one would break a leg. they are hot blooded animals

that are built for speed. they are really fast, but no matter how much cotton—wool you wrap a thoroughbred in, they will run into trouble, and we are there to help when they run into trouble. some things, unfortunately, like one of your correspondence mentioned about leg breaks, if we could fix the broken leg, we would. but there is reams of information online as to why we can't. their legs are very thin, and the way the blood vessels are set up, those vessels are severed and you cannot repair that. i up, those vessels are severed and you cannot repair that.— you cannot repair that. i want to ut you cannot repair that. i want to put this- -- _ you cannot repair that. i want to put this- -- we — you cannot repair that. i want to put this... we have _ you cannot repair that. i want to put this... we have got - you cannot repair that. i want to put this... we have got tommyl you cannot repair that. i want to i put this... we have got tommy in five macro, tommy and blackpool coming up as well, keep the comments coming, so interesting. let me ask you this as well, because we are a nation of animal lovers, we love our dogs and cats, and i have lost dogs,

it is devastating, you know, i can name the dogs i have lost and cry now thinking about it. when you lose a horse, do you cry? it now thinking about it. when you lose a horse. do you cry?— a horse, do you cry? it will harden ou ur, a horse, do you cry? it will harden you op. because — a horse, do you cry? it will harden you up, because it— a horse, do you cry? it will harden you up, because it is— a horse, do you cry? it will harden you up, because it is full- a horse, do you cry? it will harden you up, because it is full of- a horse, do you cry? it will harden you up, because it is full of upset, if you are involved in racing. polite how emotional is it for you? it is devastating, it rips you apart. it is devastating, it rips you aaart. , it is devastating, it rips you aart. , . apart. some people are wired differently — apart. some people are wired differently to _ apart. some people are wired differently to others, - apart. some people are wired differently to others, some i apart. some people are wired i differently to others, some people are very emotional and some people put up an emotional defence mechanism, because at the end of the day, sandy thomson had to get out of bed to look after the rest of his horses. if he curled up in a ball, which he might have wanted to do and cried himself to sleep for three days, his other horses wouldn't be getting looked after. unfortunately, you have to drive on in life, and that goes with human loss as well as animal loss, but if you wouldn't mind, nicky, ben is still on the

line, i believe. his organisation has been given a huge amount of airtime this week, a great wait for them, i'm sure, but one question i am really keen to hear him answer, if, as one assumes, they want not just the grand national but horse racing as a whole to be brought to an end, i want to hear what the plan is. you are leaving aside that you would be ending an industry that provides direct employment to 20,000 people in rural areas... south australia. _ people in rural areas... south australia, south _ people in rural areas... south australia, south australia, i people in rural areas... south australia, south australia, it| people in rural areas... south. australia, south australia, it is quite interesting for people, i think that my truck nicky, just in terms of the direct implications, there are about 50,000 thoroughbreds in the uk right now, i want to know what ben wants to do with them when he removes their primary purpose? firstly we would stop breeding them... — firstly we would stop breeding them... ., i: i: i: i: �* , ., them... there are 50,000, let's deal with them first. — them... there are 50,000, let's deal with them first. a — them... there are 50,000, let's deal with them first. a horse _ them... there are 50,000, let's deal with them first. a horse dies - them... there are 50,000, let's deal with them first. a horse dies every i with them first. a horse dies every two or three _

with them first. a horse dies every two or three days _ with them first. a horse dies every two or three days in _ with them first. a horse dies every two or three days in the _ with them first. a horse dies every two or three days in the uk... i two or three days in the uk... 50.000. _ two or three days in the uk... 50,000, what are you going to do with them?— with them? that is a great point, and it is sad _ with them? that is a great point, and it is sad that _ with them? that is a great point, and it is sad that we _ with them? that is a great point, and it is sad that we can't - with them? that is a great point, and it is sad that we can't think. with them? that is a great point, | and it is sad that we can't think of and it is sad that we can't think of a way— and it is sad that we can't think of a way to— and it is sad that we can't think of a way to interact with animals that doesn't _ a way to interact with animals that doesn't involve exploiting them. so doesn't involve exploiting them. sc what doesn't involve exploiting them. what are you doesn't involve exploiting them. ’ir what are you going to doesn't involve exploiting them. sr what are you going to do with 50,000 horses that you are in charge of, thoroughbreds, what is the plan? if you are protesting on an international stage for an outcome, i want to know what the plan of the outcome is. i want to know what the plan of the outcome is— outcome is. yes, well, we should stop horse _ outcome is. yes, well, we should stop horse racing _ outcome is. yes, well, we should stop horse racing because - outcome is. yes, well, we should stop horse racing because it i outcome is. yes, well, we should stop horse racing because it is i stop horse racing because it is needlessly harming an animal... we have needlessly harming an animal... have done needlessly harming an animal... , have done that, what are you doing with the horses? the have done that, what are you doing with the horses?— with the horses? the first thing, kevin, if with the horses? the first thing, kevin. if you _ with the horses? the first thing, kevin, if you are _ with the horses? the first thing, kevin, if you are worried - with the horses? the first thing, kevin, if you are worried about i kevin, if you are worried about that. _ kevin, if you are worried about that. stop _ kevin, if you are worried about that, stop breeding them. no, ben, 50,000 that, stop breeding them. no, ben, 50.000 horses. _ that, stop breeding them. no, ben, 50,000 horses, how— that, stop breeding them. no, ben, 50,000 horses, how are _ that, stop breeding them. no, ben, 50,000 horses, how are you - 50,000 horses, how are you addressing this to?— 50,000 horses, how are you addressing this to? they can be returned to _ addressing this to? they can be returned to sanctuaries. - addressing this to? they can be returned to sanctuaries. is i addressing this to? they can be | returned to sanctuaries. is there enouah returned to sanctuaries. is there enough capacity _ returned to sanctuaries. is there enough capacity at _ returned to sanctuaries. is there enough capacity at the _

returned to sanctuaries. is there enough capacity at the existing i enough capacity at the existing centuries to handle 50,000 thoroughbreds, ben? l centuries to handle 50,000 thoroughbreds, ben? i don't think horse racing _ thoroughbreds, ben? i don't think horse racing is— thoroughbreds, ben? i don't think horse racing is going _ thoroughbreds, ben? i don't think horse racing is going to _ thoroughbreds, ben? i don't think horse racing is going to be - thoroughbreds, ben? i don't think| horse racing is going to be stopped this very— horse racing is going to be stopped this very instant, and... but horse racing is going to be stopped this very instant, and. . ._ this very instant, and... but that is what you _ this very instant, and... but that is what you want, _ this very instant, and... but that is what you want, yes? - this very instant, and... but that is what you want, yes? i - this very instant, and... but that| is what you want, yes? i suppose this very instant, and... but that - is what you want, yes? i suppose the arc ument is what you want, yes? i suppose the argument would _ is what you want, yes? i suppose the argument would be, _ is what you want, yes? i suppose the argument would be, and _ is what you want, yes? i suppose the argument would be, and i _ is what you want, yes? i suppose the argument would be, and i would - is what you want, yes? i suppose the l argument would be, and i would say, i don't know, just trying to think of an i don't know, just trying to think ofan example... i don't know, just trying to think of an example... nicky, i don't know, just trying to think ofan example... nicky, i i don't know, just trying to think of an example... nicky, i can tell you... i know you can tell me, but let's move it onto another caller, i'm just trying to think of examples, trying to phase out elephant riding for obvious reasons... elephant riding for obvious reasons. . ._ elephant riding for obvious reasons... ., . ., reasons... nicky, it would create, very quickly. _ reasons... nicky, it would create, very quickly. if— reasons... nicky, it would create, very quickly, if this _ reasons... nicky, it would create, very quickly, if this happened, - reasons... nicky, it would create, very quickly, if this happened, it i very quickly, if this happened, it would create the greatest equine welfare crisis and tragedy since world war i, because thoroughbred racehorses are not equipped to be locked out in the field and forgotten about. they would literally kill each other, they would get hurt very quickly, and without attention they would die slow horrible deaths, that is the reality of what animal rising are

proposing, and people need to see that for animal rising, this is not about horses or the grand national, it is about a far bigger picture for them, because they have not thought this through very clearly. {lilla them, because they have not thought this through very clearly.— this through very clearly. 0k, well, i did try to — this through very clearly. 0k, well, i did try to save _ this through very clearly. 0k, well, i did try to save his _ this through very clearly. 0k, well, i did try to save his earlier, - i did try to save his earlier, tommy, i will be right with you, tony, i will be right with you! the calls and text go one way and swing the other, that is the nature of it. no jump the other, that is the nature of it. nojump meetings have been held in south australia for more than a year because they are not considered economically viable, a decision was made to remove all debate about the future of the sport in the state, it is gone, no more, it will not happen any more. tommy in fife, what do you think about this? we have still got ben from animal rising, what you think about what you are hearing? good morning to you. yes. think about what you are hearing? good morning to you.— good morning to you. yes, good morning. — good morning to you. yes, good morning. well. _ good morning to you. yes, good morning, well, my _ good morning to you. yes, good morning, well, my point - good morning to you. yes, good morning, well, my point was - good morning to you. yes, good i morning, well, my point was fairly simple _ morning, well, my point was fairly simple i_ morning, well, my point was fairly simple ijust— morning, well, my point was fairly simple. ijust felt _ morning, well, my point was fairly simple. ijust felt that _ morning, well, my point was fairly simple. ijust felt that a _ morning, well, my point was fairly simple. ijust felt that a lot - morning, well, my point was fairly simple. ijust felt that a lot of - simple. ijust felt that a lot of

these — simple. ijust felt that a lot of these horses— simple. ijust felt that a lot of these horses are _ simple. ijust felt that a lot of these horses are bred - simple. ijust felt that a lot of these horses are bred to - simple. ijust felt that a lot of| these horses are bred to race, simple. ijust felt that a lot of. these horses are bred to race, so simple. ijust felt that a lot of - these horses are bred to race, so if it washl— these horses are bred to race, so if it wasn't for— these horses are bred to race, so if it wasn't for racing, _ these horses are bred to race, so if it wasn't for racing, they— these horses are bred to race, so if it wasn't for racing, they wouldn't i it wasn't for racing, they wouldn't exist _ it wasn't for racing, they wouldn't exist i_ it wasn't for racing, they wouldn't exist i mean. _ it wasn't for racing, they wouldn't exist i mean. i_ it wasn't for racing, they wouldn't exist. i mean, i know— it wasn't for racing, they wouldn't exist. i mean, i know people - it wasn't for racing, they wouldn'tl exist. i mean, i know people were talking _ exist. i mean, i know people were talking about _ exist. i mean, i know people were talking about it _ exist. i mean, i know people were talking about it is— exist. i mean, i know people were talking about it is all— exist. i mean, i know people were talking about it is all about - exist. i mean, i know people werel talking about it is all about money, i don't _ talking about it is all about money, i don't see — talking about it is all about money, i don't see what _ talking about it is all about money, i don't see what the _ talking about it is all about money, i don't see what the problem - talking about it is all about money, i don't see what the problem is- talking about it is all about money, i i don't see what the problem is with making _ i don't see what the problem is with making money, _ i don't see what the problem is with making money, because _ idon't see what the problem is with making money, because money- i don't see what the problem is with making money, because money is l i don't see what the problem is with . making money, because money is what makes _ making money, because money is what makes the _ making money, because money is what makes the world — making money, because money is what makes the world go. _ making money, because money is what makes the world go. so _ making money, because money is what makes the world go. so i _ making money, because money is what makes the world go. so i don't - making money, because money is what makes the world go. so i don't see - makes the world go. so i don't see what _ makes the world go. so i don't see what the _ makes the world go. so i don't see what the issue _ makes the world go. so i don't see what the issue is _ makes the world go. so i don't see what the issue is in— makes the world go. so i don't see what the issue is in making - makes the world go. so i don't see| what the issue is in making money. makes the world go. so i don't see i what the issue is in making money. i would _ what the issue is in making money. i would like _ what the issue is in making money. i would like to — what the issue is in making money. i would like to see _ what the issue is in making money. i would like to see them _ what the issue is in making money. i would like to see them make - what the issue is in making money. i would like to see them make it - would like to see them make it safer~ — would like to see them make it safer~ they— would like to see them make it safer. they could _ would like to see them make it safer. they could be _ would like to see them make it safer. they could be making i would like to see them make it safer. they could be making it| safer. they could be making it safer~ — safer. they could be making it safer~ but _ safer. they could be making it safer~ but i _ safer. they could be making it safer. but i don't _ safer. they could be making it safer. but i don't see - safer. they could be making it safer. but i don't see why- safer. they could be making it safer. but i don't see why it i safer. but i don't see why it shouldn't— safer. but i don't see why it shouldn't continue, - safer. but i don't see why it| shouldn't continue, because safer. but i don't see why it . shouldn't continue, because a safer. but i don't see why it - shouldn't continue, because a lot of these _ shouldn't continue, because a lot of these horses— shouldn't continue, because a lot of these horses wouldn't _ shouldn't continue, because a lot of these horses wouldn't exist, - shouldn't continue, because a lot of these horses wouldn't exist, they. these horses wouldn't exist, they are bred — these horses wouldn't exist, they are bred for— these horses wouldn't exist, they are bred for racing. _ these horses wouldn't exist, they are bred for racing.— are bred for racing. tony in blackpool- _ are bred for racing. tony in blackpool. hi, _ are bred for racing. tony in blackpool. hi, morning. i are bred for racing. tony in i blackpool. hi, morning. how are bred for racing. tony in - blackpool. hi, morning. how are you doina, blackpool. hi, morning. how are you doing. nicky? _ blackpool. hi, morning. how are you doing. nicky? all— blackpool. hi, morning. how are you doing, nicky? all right. _ blackpool. hi, morning. how are you doing, nicky? all right. i— blackpool. hi, morning. how are you doing, nicky? all right. i have - doing, nicky? all right. i have heard a lot — doing, nicky? all right. i have heard a lot about _ doing, nicky? all right. i have heard a lot about making - doing, nicky? all right. i have heard a lot about making the l heard a lot about making the grand national fences safer, heard a lot about making the grand nationalfences safer, but heard a lot about making the grand national fences safer, but the problem is, you can knock the top 18 inches off national fence and come out the other end, because they are not like other courses, theyjust completely collapsed. now, you have

horses, i heara completely collapsed. now, you have horses, i hear a lot of people saying that they are herd animals of prey animals whatever they want to say, but if a horse does not want to run from that start, hell no high water will make it run. you are not going to make it run. i water will make it run. you are not going to make it run.— going to make it run. i have two sto ou going to make it run. i have two stop you right — going to make it run. i have two stop you right there, _ going to make it run. i have two stop you right there, powerful i stop you right there, powerful points this morning, because the prime minister is making a speech in london talking about teenagers studying maths past the age of 16, we are expecting him to answer questions on education policy and all sorts of other stuff. let's have all sorts of other stuff. let's have a listen to what he is saying. because what is the biggest skill shortage holding ourfilm industry back. as you heard from gillian, it is a shortage of technical skills and in support of the london screen academy, the curriculum for 16—19 —year—olds. maths! why? because you can't make visual effects without

vectors and matrices. you can't design a set without some geometry. you can't run a film production company without being financially literate, and that is notjust true of our creative industries. it is true of so many of our industries. in health care, maths allows you to calculate dosages. in retail, data skills allow you to analyse sales and calculate discounts. and the same is true in all our daily lives, from managing household budgets to understanding mobile phone contracts or mortgages. now, we also know that maths and the benefit of maths for employability and earnings, even just basic numeracy skills can increase your earnings by around £1600 per year. so put simply, without a solid foundation in maths, our children at risk being left behind, shut out of careers they aspire to and the lives they want

to... now, in the last decade or so, we have gone up ten places in the international league tables, and maths has become the most popular of all a—levels. maths has become the most popular of alla—levels. but maths has become the most popular of all a—levels. but it is still the case that the uk is one of the least numerous countries in the developed world, more than 8 million adults have numeracy skills below those expected of a nine—year—old. and around a third of our young people don't pass maths gcse. now, it is not that we're not just good don't pass maths gcse. now, it is not that we're notjust good enough at maths, there is a cultural here too. i'll be honest, when my young daughters heard me talking about making them do more maths, they were not excited. we makejokes making them do more maths, they were not excited. we make jokes about not wanting to do maths, it is socially acceptable. you say, maths, that is not for me, and everybody laughs. but we would not make a joke about

not being able to read like that. we've got to change this anti—maths mindset. we have to appraise numeracy for what it is, a key skill just as essential as reading. my campaign to transform our national approach to maths is not something nice to have, it is about changing how we value maths in our country, changing the way the education system works to deliver it. so that all of our children get these vital skills for life. parents and teachers listening to this will want to know what this means for our children today. let me tell you. we are in the process of making maths more accessible, building our children's confidence, so that they don't fear maths. we create a more sector specific content that can excite young people about the relevance of maths, for the careers they aspire to, to help teachers bring maths to life in the classroom. from building sets for school players, to calculating any angles or free kicks,

school players, to calculating any angles orfree kicks, or the school players, to calculating any angles or free kicks, or the speed of a formula 1 car. we are expanding the maths hopes, unique partnerships of expert schools that support maths teaching. and we are strengthening maths in primary schools, including with a new, fully funded professional qualification for those that are teaching it. but we also need to address a very specific problem that is causing us to fall behind the rest of the world. we are one of the few developed countries where young people don't routinely study some form of maths after the age of 18. they do it in australia, canada, france, germany, finland, japan, norway and america. why should we accept any less for our children? of course we shouldn't. that is why i set out injanuary that we are going to change the way our system works, so that everyone in our country will study some form

of maths all the way through to 18. but let me be absolutely clear. i am not saying that the answer is a level maths for everyone. but we do need to work out the maths our young people should study. we are going to look at what 16 to 18—year—olds around the world are learning, and we are going to listen to employers, and ask them what they say the maths skills are that they need. that is why today i am appointing a new expert group who will help us identify the core maths content that our 16 to 18—year—olds need. and why do we need a new, specific qualification to support that. but to repeat, that will not be a level maths for all. let me also be clear that we are not going to deliver this change overnight. we are going to recruit and train the maths teachers, we are going to work out

how to harness technology that we need to support them, and we'll need to make sure that this maths is additional to other subjects, not instead of them. just as here, the london screen academy, they don't teach maths instead of the arts, they teach both, because they are complementary, not contradictory. so, it will take time to implement this change, but we are taking the first step today by identifying the maths content that will give our 16 to 18—year—olds the skills they need to 18—year—olds the skills they need to get on in life. when we have that, we will come back with a detailed plan to deliver it. i'll just finish on a personal note. every opportunity that i've had in life began with the education that i was so fortunate to receive. and maths was a critical part of that. i knew it was important then. and when i look at how the world is changing, it's only going to be more important

for my children and yours. i won't sit back and allow this cultural sense that it's ok to be bad at maths to put our children at a disadvantage. we've got to change this. we've got to value maths and what it can do for our children's futures. giving our children a world—class education is the single most important thing we can do. it's the closest thing we have to a silver bullet, the best economic policy, the best social policy, the best moral policy. and that's why i am proud that it's our policy, and i will never stop striving to achieve it. thank you. applause

thank you. write, thanks very much. we've got time for a good bunch of questions. before we get to the media, i was going to say, did you guys have any questions to start with? l guys have any questions to start with? .. guys have any questions to start with? ., . , ., .. with? i got a question. you mentioned _ with? i got a question. you mentioned that _ with? i got a question. you mentioned that a _ with? i got a question. you mentioned that a level - with? i got a question. you i mentioned that a level maths with? i got a question. you - mentioned that a level maths isn't for everyone. will we see more diversity— for everyone. will we see more diversity in _ for everyone. will we see more diversity in the different types of maths _ diversity in the different types of maths courses we could potentially do, maths courses we could potentially do. post _ maths courses we could potentially do, post 16? maths courses we could potentially do. post 16?— do, post 16? brilliant, that is exact what — do, post 16? brilliant, that is exact what we _ do, post 16? brilliant, that is exact what we are _ do, post 16? brilliant, that is exact what we are going - do, post 16? brilliant, that is exact what we are going to i do, post 16? brilliant, that is. exact what we are going to see. do, post 16? brilliant, that is- exact what we are going to see. i think when i first announced this in january, everybody was panicked that it meant a—level maths for everybody. i wanted to be crystal clear that it is not. it's great that it's recognised that more and more people are taking a—level maths. as gillian will remind us, it is now the most popular a—level, thatis is now the most popular a—level, that is a sign of progress. what we are announcing is a new expert group of people, drawn from academia, business, all walks of life, from education, and they are going to help us figure out exactly what that content should be. one way we will look at that is by talking to businesses, and say, in all of these

different industries, what are the maths skills you value and need? and we are going to look around the world. we are literally one of the very few developed countries where we don't have our children study maths up to 18. we are going to look around at all of the countries i mentioned and say, well, what are their students studying between 16 and 18? it gives us a rough sense of what we need. we will put those together and say, this is it, and it won't be a—level maths, it is something different. and we will figure out what that is. hopefully that gives you some reassurance. who is next? anyone else? all good? no? right, anyone else have some questions before we go to the media? 0k, questions before we go to the media? ok, gosh, very quiet. any questions on things that are not related to maths? i'm also fine for those. all fine? ok, let's turn to the media for some questions. shall we start with the bbc?—

with the bbc? thank you, prime minister. chris _ with the bbc? thank you, prime minister. chris mason, - with the bbc? thank you, prime minister. chris mason, bbc- with the bbc? thank you, prime i minister. chris mason, bbc news. with the bbc? thank you, prime - minister. chris mason, bbc news. you talked _ minister. chris mason, bbc news. you talked today about an aspiration, but with— talked today about an aspiration, but with very little detail. and yet the context is one where, for many pupils— the context is one where, for many pupils and — the context is one where, for many pupils and parents, this will be further— pupils and parents, this will be further disruption to their education with strikes coming up, as well as— education with strikes coming up, as well as the _ education with strikes coming up, as well as the prospect of strikes going — well as the prospect of strikes going on— well as the prospect of strikes going on for months and months ahead in the _ going on for months and months ahead in the nhs _ going on for months and months ahead in the nhs. shouldn't the strikes and sorting it out quickly be your priority? — and sorting it out quickly be your riori ? ., , and sorting it out quickly be your riori ? . , ., , priority? thanks, chris. so, lots in there. priority? thanks, chris. so, lots in there- the — priority? thanks, chris. so, lots in there. the first _ priority? thanks, chris. so, lots in there. the first thing _ priority? thanks, chris. so, lots in there. the first thing to _ priority? thanks, chris. so, lots in there. the first thing to say, - priority? thanks, chris. so, lots in there. the first thing to say, let'sl there. the first thing to say, let's talk about what is going on in schools. there will be some teachers here, the first thing i want to say, and gillian would echo this, i think i would teachers do an incredible job. you probably heard from what i said earlier, i think delivering a world—class education system is the most important thing we can do for our children's futures and for her country, and that starts with having the best teachers. all the research tells you that, our own experience as parents tells us that, the most important thing for a child's

education is the quality of teaching, which is why it is right that we respect, revere and support our teachers. and i'm so thankful for the incrediblejob our teachers. and i'm so thankful for the incredible job they do. that is why we worked so hard to find a way to come to what i thought was a reasonable and fair settlement on pgy- reasonable and fair settlement on pay. it represented about an 8% increase for most teachers, 13% increase for most teachers, 13% increase for most teachers, 13% increase for new teachers, taking their starting salary of £230,000 over the course of the next year, which is something we have committed to do a couple of years ago, and i'm pleased we are able to deliver that. it's not also just about the money. one of the things we hear a lot from teachers is about workload, and finding ways to reduce that. what we had worked out with the unions, and gillian did a greatjob, is identifying ways to reduce the workload by about five hours a week. put together, we thought that was a reasonable and fair package. obviously i'm disappointed and i don't want our kids education to be

disrupted, i think nobody wants to see that. our door is always open and we continue to hope that we can find a way through. that is the situation on that and we are able to focus on that. it's also right that we look to the future. it's also right that we think about our kids and how we can make sure that they can fulfil all of the opportunities ahead of them, live the lives that we want them to live, and make sure they can enter every career, compete with everyone around the world, go about their daily lives, getting their mortgage, figuring out the discounts on all the things i talked about. that's fundamental to building a strong country under strong society, and it's right that we put in plans for that. i admit it is not going to happen overnight. we are taking the first step today, brilliant first question, what is the content? once we have the content writer, i can come back and talk to you about what that means for the new teachers, how we are going to teach the course, and how we are going to roll it out. that's the first step on the journey. on the first step on the journey. on the nhs, i think we can start with

the nhs, i think we can start with the positive news, which got slightly lost, i think. the positive news, which got slightly lost, ithink. the the positive news, which got slightly lost, i think. the positive news is that the union with the largest number of nhs workers, unison, actually voted to accept and support the new deal that we put forward. nhs workers are represented ljy forward. nhs workers are represented by about half a dozen different unions, and the largest one of those voted to accept the deal. and not just buy a little bit, overwhelmingly, by almost 3—1, from the numbers that i saw. and i think that's a very positive step, and i am really grateful to them for that, and more generally grateful to the fantastic nhs workers for the job they do, because coming out of the pandemic has been challenging. that is why we worked really hard to put in place what we thought was a reasonable, responsible and fair settlement. i'm actually pleased

that those union leaders recommended that those union leaders recommended that deal altered members, and the rcn leadership actually said that the government made progress in the talks, improve the offer, and they recommended the offer to their members. you can see that in the narrow nature of the vote. 54—46. a very narrow vote, rejecting the pay offer. a minority of the union but are voting to strike. voting to strike with no derogations, given the closeness of the vote, is disappointing and i think everybody will be concerned about the impact on pension care. as i said, our door is always open to have talks, there are other unions in the process of balloting their members. hopefully they can see that the offer put forward as a reasonable one that recognises their hard work and the

contribution they make, and also recognises that we have to do these things in a way that is affordable for taxpayers, things in a way that is affordable fortaxpayers, but things in a way that is affordable for taxpayers, but also get inflation down. that's the first one of my priorities, to halve inflation. that is because all of you in this room, everyone watching, is impacted by the cost of living and what they are seeing with their bills. ithink and what they are seeing with their bills. i think we all share a desire to ease that burden, and that means being disciplined as well, so that we can get inflation down, ease the burden on bills and that is what we are going to do. ideli]!!! burden on bills and that is what we are going to do-— are going to do. will come out there. are going to do. will come out there- pretty _ are going to do. will come out there. pretty soon, _ are going to do. will come out there. pretty soon, the - are going to do. will come out there. pretty soon, the prime| there. pretty soon, the prime minister, talking about getting asked about strikes. —— rishi sunak. reaction to what he has said that education and maths, but will be coming up throughout the day, no doubt, on radio 5 live on bbc news. you can find more on the bbc website. let's talk about what we are going to talk about in this particular hour. this hour, ban the bollards?

low traffic neighbourhoods or ltns. it's getting a lot of people hot under the collar. they sound pretty innocuous, but a war is raging up there. they try to restrict roads in local areas, through traffic bollards. they hope to cut congestion and pollution, and transform the community. into a cleaner, new world. a breath of fresh air, a blast of clean air, encouraging us to walk or cycle instead of using the car. but as i say, they have provoked fury. bollards vandalised, arguments between local residents and more recently mass protests. there is loads of stuff going on

beneath the bonnet on this one. campaigners say they set neighbour against neighbour and are tearing communities apart — encouraging cars to drive down other roads instead. so you are just moving the problem. there are hundreds in england already, with more on the way. they are in scotland too and wales and northern ireland are also considering them. is there one near where you live? have they improved things in your local area? or made things worse? we're live on five live, bbc news, bbc two, iplayer and bbc sounds. should we ban bollards? justin rowlatt is going to be there in a second. get in touch. call me on 08085 909693, text 85058. or you can tweet us @bbc5live

was a bit of previous, introducing you, but you are there. are there any in manchester?— you, but you are there. are there any in manchester? there are ltns, low traffic neighbourhoods - any in manchester? there are ltns, low traffic neighbourhoods come - any in manchester? there are ltns, low traffic neighbourhoods come in l low traffic neighbourhoods come in manchester. i think they are probably suffering the same conflict of opinion is that the low traffic neighbourhoods elsewhere in britain are. i think you will find that some people are passionately supporting them, and others are violently opposed to them. they really do divide opinions in the most extraordinary way, because remember, in a way, they are quite innocuous. all they are is restricting through traffic and local neighbourhoods. you so to your door, you can still park your car outside your house, you just can't nip through the cutlery is that you used to. i suppose if you have paid your road

tax, you say, well, should be able to drive wherever i want. what tax, you say, well, should be able to drive wherever i want. what about this argument _ to drive wherever i want. what about this argument that _ to drive wherever i want. what about this argument that they _ to drive wherever i want. what about this argument that they are - to drive wherever i want. what about this argument that they are moving i this argument that they are moving the argument elsewhere? pollution does not respect postcodes, does it? it certainly doesn't. this latest wave of low traffic neighbourhoods was brought in as part of the government active travel policy. they put aside £3.2 billion, they say, to invest in making us all a bit more active, reducing emissions, cut greenhouse gases, make us all healthier. that's the idea. they put about £450 million into low traffic neighbourhoods, there has been research on the latest round of ltns, it is early days, the data is not perfect, but what they suggest is that they reduce traffic and local areas, which is what you'd expect if you block the roads.

traffic and local areas where there are ltns, it is down by 30%. you are asking about the boundary roads, are they pushing the traffic out onto they pushing the traffic out onto the roads on the outside of these ltns? a little bit less clear on that. in half of the 46, there was a study by the university of westminster, half of the 46 they looked at, they found that traffic had increased on boundary roads, on the other half, traffic decreased. the average increase was low. they said if it was systematically pushing traffic onto boundary roads, it would have captured that. so she doesn't think that there is a driving traffic out onto boundary roads. at the work is contested, some people say the machines used to count traffic when it is moving slowly are not very accurate. there are all sorts of debates, everything about this subject generates huge

passion. about this sub'ect generates huge assion. ,. ,, ., about this sub'ect generates huge assion. ,, ., , . , ., , passion. huge passion, stand-up rows and lots of shouting, _ passion. huge passion, stand-up rows and lots of shouting, and _ passion. huge passion, stand-up rows and lots of shouting, and that - passion. huge passion, stand-up rows and lots of shouting, and that is - and lots of shouting, and that is here in our genteel and civilised country. imagine if this was happening in france. imagine what will be going on. it’s happening in france. imagine what will be going on.— will be going on. it's pretty french, some _ will be going on. it's pretty french, some of _ will be going on. it's pretty french, some of the - will be going on. it's pretty i french, some of the reactions we have been seeing. you say stand—up rows, that is quite common. we were looking at oxford, you've talked about bollards. we think we have found the most abused bollard in britain. you never thought you would feel sympathy for this inanimate object, this poor pollard, you can see it being run over repeatedly, people bending it and kicking it. somebody sets fire to it. a couple of people have stolen it over the year or so that it has been in place. huge passions. the pollard was stolen, then local people have stood in as human bollards, using their own bodies to block the road. as you can imagine, that has provoked some very interesting debates between car drivers and these human bollards. shore debates between car drivers and these human bollards.— these human bollards. are you mannin: these human bollards. are you

manning the — these human bollards. are you manning the barricades - these human bollards. are you manning the barricades for - these human bollards. are you - manning the barricades for bollards, are you manning the bollards for barricades? our callerfrom liverpool street lives right next to a low traffic neighbourhood. good morning to james, who lives a low traffic neighbourhood. let's go to james. what do you think? i litre traffic neighbourhood. let's go to james. what do you think? i live aon and ltm, james. what do you think? i live aon and hm. and — james. what do you think? i live aon and hm. and it— james. what do you think? i live aon and ltm, and it has— james. what do you think? i live aon and ltm, and it has transformed - james. what do you think? i live aon and ltm, and it has transformed the| and ltm, and it has transformed the area. we used to have cars, 6000 a day, cars coming through our road. now in the school run you see streams of children cycling to school, kids playing in the street. it's a huge change. although you heard about division in oxford, overall, they are popular. there was a yougov poll in oxford that showed twice as many people support the

ltns as oppose them. i think it is a minority that cause the vandalism. when you are trying to change behaviour relating to driving, it is very ingrained. we used to be able to drive wherever we want. thea;r very ingrained. we used to be able to drive wherever we want. they talk about civil rights _ to drive wherever we want. they talk about civil rights as _ to drive wherever we want. they talk about civil rights as well. _ to drive wherever we want. they talk about civil rights as well. yes, - to drive wherever we want. they talk about civil rights as well. yes, you i about civil rights as well. yes, you balance the _ about civil rights as well. yes, you balance the civil _ about civil rights as well. yes, you balance the civil rights _ about civil rights as well. yes, you balance the civil rights of - about civil rights as well. yes, you balance the civil rights of people i balance the civil rights of people to enjoy clean air in their own neighbourhood. the point is we have got traffic jams and neighbourhood. the point is we have got trafficjams and also rat running through neighbourhoods, and the ltn is taking things back to where they used to be, before we had google maps and try find all of these small roads.— google maps and try find all of these small roads. have you been involved in — these small roads. have you been involved in a _ these small roads. have you been involved in a frock— these small roads. have you been involved in a frock are? _ these small roads. have you been involved in a frock are? i've - these small roads. have you been involved in a frock are? i've seen| involved in a frock are? i've seen friends and _ involved in a frock are? i've seen friends and neighbours _ involved in a frock are? i've seenj friends and neighbours physically threatened and driven out by cars.

what? it threatened and driven out by cars. what? ., , ., .. threatened and driven out by cars. what? ., , ., ., ., what? it was violent for quite a while, what? it was violent for quite a while. now— what? it was violent for quite a while. now it — what? it was violent for quite a while, now it has _ what? it was violent for quite a while, now it has calmed - what? it was violent for quite a | while, now it has calmed down, because the council put in solid bollards that are not getting abuse as much as the ones you have heard about from justin. mail as much as the ones you have heard about from justin.— about from justin. wait a minute, james. about from justin. wait a minute, james- driven _ about from justin. wait a minute, james. driven out _ about from justin. wait a minute, james. driven out by _ about from justin. wait a minute, james. driven out by cars? - about from justin. wait a minute, james. driven out by cars? yes, i james. driven out by cars? yes, well, james. driven out by cars? yes, well. some _ james. driven out by cars? yes, well. some of— james. driven out by cars? yes, well, some of the _ james. driven out by cars? yes, well, some of the bollards - james. driven out by cars? yes, well, some of the bollards get i well, some of the bollards get stolen, as you heard. and then people are so upset about cars racing through the streets, when they weren't there before, where there are kids playing, they are upset and they will sometimes stand on the barrier saying it is illegal to drive through here, then cars will drive at them. this is what was happening. i have to say, now things have calmed down and people are feeling the benefits.— have calmed down and people are feeling the benefits. people feeling the benefit, getting _ feeling the benefits. people feeling the benefit, getting used _ feeling the benefits. people feeling the benefit, getting used to - feeling the benefits. people feeling the benefit, getting used to it. - feeling the benefits. people feeling the benefit, getting used to it. i - the benefit, getting used to it. i will come to you first, roland, you can hang on a second and i will be

right with you. i think you are all for it, am i right in saying that? yes. i live next door to one across the road. i think they are amazing. i met a man on the other day who is not a cyclist, she never cycled, she drives everywhere. because of the ltns, she could not drive to school any more. her daughter rides down the safe streets with a helmet, with some volunteers, and get herself to school and back every day. the mum is a single mum, and she can now relax and allow that to happen. it means that she saves eight hours a week. so she is working eight hours more a week, and she said she wouldn't survive the cost of living crisis if you are still taking her daughter to school every day. the traffic is terrible on the school run anyway, and ijust think traffic is terrible on the school run anyway, and i just think that traffic is terrible on the school run anyway, and ijust think that is what it is about, it's about kids, we talk about the freedom to drive

your car everywhere, what about the freedom for kids to play on the streets, or go and explore? back in the day, kids used to go for miles on bikes, roaming around. largely, parents are too terrified to do that, because of cars. we have to think about whose freedoms we are talking about. there so much pressure on parents because they don't feel they can let their kids go to school by themselves. they got to drive them to school, they feel the car is essential. and yet you have got to rebalance it and make it a bit safer. and then you are less reliant on cars. it a virtuous cycle. reliant on cars. it a virtuous cle. ~ .. , .. reliant on cars. it a virtuous cle. ~ .. ~' reliant on cars. it a virtuous cle. ~ ., ~ .. reliant on cars. it a virtuous cle. ~ ., ~ .,, cycle. would you like to see them s - read, cycle. would you like to see them spread. get _ cycle. would you like to see them spread, get more _ cycle. would you like to see them spread, get more of _ cycle. would you like to see them spread, get more of them? - cycle. would you like to see them spread, get more of them? i - cycle. would you like to see them | spread, get more of them? i think eve bod spread, get more of them? i think everybody deserves _ spread, get more of them? i think everybody deserves to _ spread, get more of them? i think everybody deserves to live - spread, get more of them? i think everybody deserves to live in - spread, get more of them? i think everybody deserves to live in a - spread, get more of them? i think| everybody deserves to live in a city where buses move fast and people feel safe to walk, cycle and scoot around. i do wish that you could tempt people out of cars and be nice and make it all lovely and carrots, but generally speaking, you need

some work. but generally speaking, you need some work-— but generally speaking, you need some work. . ., , . ., . some work. carrots have got quite a few mentions _ some work. carrots have got quite a few mentions on _ some work. carrots have got quite a few mentions on the _ some work. carrots have got quite a few mentions on the programme. isj few mentions on the programme. is the template of the future, is this it for you? the template of the future, is this it for you ? i the template of the future, is this it for ou? ~ , ~ it for you? i like ltns, i think they are _ it for you? i like ltns, i think they are part _ it for you? i like ltns, i think they are part of— it for you? i like ltns, i think they are part of the _ it for you? i like ltns, i think they are part of the solution. | it for you? i like ltns, i think| they are part of the solution. i also like policies that allow some people to keep driving. the disabled, businesses, they do need to keep driving. if you're talking about citywide schemes, i think they are really good. but i think you're talking about local neighbourhoods, and you are redressing the balance. because with google maps, you just have rat running you never had, because people did know their way around. so i think ltns solve that problem, and solve the problem of kids getting themselves to school tie problems, then on the whole we need to have public transport at work. have you seen any confrontations?

seen plenty of confrontations. i'd also like to say there are a lot of people just getting on with things, just living their lives. a lot of people in oxford don't even own a car. so, that isn't an issue. i think the confrontation, the vitriol, it is definitely a minority. most peoplejust vitriol, it is definitely a minority. most people just get on with it. minority. most people 'ust get on with it. . .. with it. tell me about some of the vitriol ou with it. tell me about some of the vitriol you have _ with it. tell me about some of the vitriol you have seen, _ with it. tell me about some of the vitriol you have seen, if _ with it. tell me about some of the vitriolyou have seen, if i - with it. tell me about some of the vitriol you have seen, if i may - with it. tell me about some of the | vitriol you have seen, if i may ask? yes, lots of shouting about bollards being taken away, being run over, burned and that kind of stuff. it has happened, but it has stopped more recently because we have bollards that are more sturdy. people are just getting used to it. but change is hard, and it has died down in the last couple of weeks. rowland in north london, change is hard? get used to it.— hard? get used to it. hello, nicky, nice to talk — hard? get used to it. hello, nicky, nice to talk to _ hard? get used to it. hello, nicky, nice to talk to you. _ hard? get used to it. hello, nicky, nice to talk to you. lovely - hard? get used to it. hello, nicky, nice to talk to you. lovely to - hard? get used to it. hello, nicky,

nice to talk to you. lovely to have | nice to talk to you. lovely to have ou on. nice to talk to you. lovely to have you on- fire _ nice to talk to you. lovely to have you on. fire away. _ nice to talk to you. lovely to have you on. fire away. basically, - nice to talk to you. lovely to have j you on. fire away. basically, peak lockdown. — you on. fire away. basically, peak lockdown, something _ you on. fire away. basically, peak lockdown, something hit - you on. fire away. basically, peak lockdown, something hit our - you on. fire away. basically, peak lockdown, something hit our mat| you on. fire away. basically, peak- lockdown, something hit our mat from the council— lockdown, something hit our mat from the council saying our all—round access — the council saying our all—round access in — the council saying our all—round access in the outer area was going to be _ access in the outer area was going to be restricted tojust access in and out — to be restricted tojust access in and out via _ to be restricted tojust access in and out via the north roads, onto the north— and out via the north roads, onto the north circular. this was very odd for— the north circular. this was very odd for people in the area, and we looked _ odd for people in the area, and we looked at — odd for people in the area, and we looked at it — odd for people in the area, and we looked at it. and what we found was that got— looked at it. and what we found was that got imposed on us, and we a local— that got imposed on us, and we a local campaign because the due process— local campaign because the due process was not followed. due process — process was not followed. due process was not followed. due process was ignored on this. i think the best— process was ignored on this. i think the best decisions are made when all stakeholders are involved. in london. _ stakeholders are involved. in london, it's very much been the london — london, it's very much been the london cycle campaign, they seem to have complete ear of the council throughout this. they have even influenced maps on how things are

done _ influenced maps on how things are done i— influenced maps on how things are done i can — influenced maps on how things are done. i can tell you now that we are very much— done. i can tell you now that we are very much cut off from the south of our area _ very much cut off from the south of our area by— very much cut off from the south of our area by a — very much cut off from the south of our area by a car. very much cut off from the south of ourarea bya car. if very much cut off from the south of our area by a car. if i was to go to muswelt— our area by a car. if i was to go to muswell hill, it would take me ten minutes— muswell hill, it would take me ten minutes each way in the car, it could _ minutes each way in the car, it could now— minutes each way in the car, it could now take 45 minutes to come back from _ could now take 45 minutes to come back from there. i am a keen cyclist. — back from there. i am a keen cyclist. i— back from there. i am a keen cyclist, i cycle to central london. would _ cyclist, i cycle to central london. would you — cyclist, i cycle to central london. would you consider public transport to get a muswell hill?— to get a muswell hill? public transport _ to get a muswell hill? public transport has _ to get a muswell hill? public transport has been _ to get a muswell hill? publicl transport has been frustrating because — transport has been frustrating because the infrastructure is not there _ because the infrastructure is not there that — because the infrastructure is not there that much. you talk about the active _ there that much. you talk about the active travel— there that much. you talk about the active travel angle, we are pretty active _ active travel angle, we are pretty active here — active travel angle, we are pretty active here anyway. but there is a bil active here anyway. but there is a big hill— active here anyway. but there is a big hill involved. i tell you now, you talk— big hill involved. i tell you now, you talk about everybody having access _ you talk about everybody having access to — you talk about everybody having access to their house, which they have _ access to their house, which they have but — access to their house, which they have but if— access to their house, which they have. but if there is an accident on the north— have. but if there is an accident on the north circular, we are effectively landlocked, and you can be landlocked in your home for vehicle — be landlocked in your home for vehicle travel. a lot of people, tradespeople especially, they are

very frustrated by this because they need to— very frustrated by this because they need to get their tools around, for example — need to get their tools around, for example. that makes it very difficult _ example. that makes it very difficult. the main thing i want to come _ difficult. the main thing i want to come on — difficult. the main thing i want to come on was... i have actually seen justin's _ come on was... i have actually seen justin's report, panorama, and i still feel— justin's report, panorama, and i still feel we are portrayed as a bit of a ragbag rabble. people here, when _ of a ragbag rabble. people here, when we — of a ragbag rabble. people here, when we had demonstrations early on, a complete _ when we had demonstrations early on, a complete cross—section of ages, trades— a complete cross—section of ages, trades and — a complete cross—section of ages, trades and people who have families in different parts and need to get around. — in different parts and need to get around, older people, younger people — around, older people, younger people. and we have been very mellow mannered _ people. and we have been very mellow mannered. we were not ripping things out and _ mannered. we were not ripping things out and burning things. we went through— out and burning things. we went through the pandemic and we saw blue li-ht through the pandemic and we saw blue light emergency services being truly frustrated _ light emergency services being truly frustrated by the scheme, and they were literally being held up getting around _ were literally being held up getting around. and we've seen massive

displaced — around. and we've seen massive displaced traffic. what it does, it concentrates all the traffic on fewer — concentrates all the traffic on fewer roads. so, you do get some people _ fewer roads. so, you do get some people who — fewer roads. so, you do get some people who get really badly hit. and we are _ people who get really badly hit. and we are being told almost that this doesn't _ we are being told almost that this doesn't exist, and we almost start questioning our sanity.— questioning our sanity. don't do that. questioning our sanity. don't do that- give _ questioning our sanity. don't do that. give me _ questioning our sanity. don't do that. give me an _ questioning our sanity. don't do that. give me an example - questioning our sanity. don't do that. give me an example in - questioning our sanity. don't do that. give me an example in a i that. give me an example in a second, but i thinkjustin should... oh, timothy in oxford is coming up, and sue in warrington. i oh, timothy in oxford is coming up, and sue in warrington.— and sue in warrington. i think the -hones and sue in warrington. i think the phones are _ and sue in warrington. i think the phones are going _ and sue in warrington. i think the phones are going to _ and sue in warrington. i think the phones are going to light - and sue in warrington. i think the phones are going to light up. - phones are going to light up. justin, a ragbag rabble rousing? these are decent people, justin! we represent the people fairly, you cannot have seen the programme, because it hasn't gone out he had. i think when you do see it, you will feel that it is very fair and reflect the debate very fairly, we don't present it as a rabble. and

you will see both... you know, this is a thing, it is divisive, as nicky said, it is incredibly divisive with passions on both sides, which is why you see these really heated discussions sometimes spilling over into actual physical conflict. but i think we represent it all very fairly. i think we represent it all very fairl . ~ , , . fairly. i think you represent it all very fairly. _ fairly. i think you represent it all very fairly, unimpeachable - fairly. i think you represent it all very fairly, unimpeachable or. fairly. i think you represent it all| very fairly, unimpeachable or so! timothy, so, how are you doing? what do you think of ltns? i'd love to know. i do you think of ltns? i'd love to know. ., .. do you think of ltns? i'd love to know. ., ., .. do you think of ltns? i'd love to know. ., ., ., , know. i lived in london for six ears know. i lived in london for six years and _ know. i lived in london for six years and the _ know. i lived in london for six years and the public— know. i lived in london for six years and the public transportj know. i lived in london for six - years and the public transport was fantastic. — years and the public transport was fantastic, but once i had a child, it was— fantastic, but once i had a child, it was difficult to move around on public— it was difficult to move around on public transport and i needed my car. public transport and i needed my can so— public transport and i needed my car. so down there, i can understand the advantages and disadvantages. i now live _ the advantages and disadvantages. i now live in _ the advantages and disadvantages. i now live in a town called warrington, it's got a population of about— warrington, it's got a population of about 250,000 people, mainly terrorist. — about 250,000 people, mainly terrorist, lots of terraced streets,

lots of _ terrorist, lots of terraced streets, lots of estates, very residential. and most— lots of estates, very residential. and most of the roads are single lane traffic. i happen to live on a boundary — lane traffic. i happen to live on a boundary road, very difficult to cross. — boundary road, very difficult to cross, there are not enough crossings _ cross, there are not enough crossings in place. they have implemented one ltn, they proposed two, implemented one ltn, they proposed two. and _ implemented one ltn, they proposed two, and the one they have implemented forces all the traffic onto a _ implemented forces all the traffic onto a one—way system, and we have proven _ onto a one—way system, and we have proven that _ onto a one—way system, and we have proven that this has increased pollution _ proven that this has increased pollution. so instead of travelling 0.4 pollution. so instead of travelling 0a of— pollution. so instead of travelling 0a of a — pollution. so instead of travelling 0.4 of a mile, you pollution. so instead of travelling 0.4 ofa mile, you have pollution. so instead of travelling 0.4 of a mile, you have to travel one mile — 0.4 of a mile, you have to travel one mile around it. the amount of traffic— one mile around it. the amount of traffic they — one mile around it. the amount of traffic they have displaced equates to 100 _ traffic they have displaced equates to 100 extra tonnes of c02 per year. our council— to 100 extra tonnes of c02 per year. our council refused to report on that _ our council refused to report on that they— our council refused to report on that. they pick and choose the figures — that. they pick and choose the figures that they want. it has caused — figures that they want. it has caused chaos for many of the residents— caused chaos for many of the residents in one area. it has caused chaos— residents in one area. it has caused chaos for— residents in one area. it has caused chaos for them. those that live on the boundary roads, orjust off the boundary— the boundary roads, orjust off the boundary roads, if they want to come

out of— boundary roads, if they want to come out of the _ boundary roads, if they want to come out of the side streets and turn right. _ out of the side streets and turn right, they are taking their life in their— right, they are taking their life in their hands every time. and we are surrounded — their hands every time. and we are surrounded on three sides by motorways, so we have got to be m56, the m6 _ motorways, so we have got to be m56, the m6 running just to the west of the m6 running just to the west of the town— the m6 running just to the west of the town centre, and we have got the m62 on— the town centre, and we have got the m62 on the _ the town centre, and we have got the m62 on the north. so you get an accident — m62 on the north. so you get an accident there, and everything diverts— accident there, and everything diverts through warrington. and we become _ diverts through warrington. and we become gridlocked. now, the boundary road that— become gridlocked. now, the boundary road that i— become gridlocked. now, the boundary road that i live on, which so far isn't _ road that i live on, which so far isn't a — road that i live on, which so far isn't a boundary road because they haven't_ isn't a boundary road because they haven't implemented that ltn has a railway— haven't implemented that ltn has a railway bridge, and the road dips down _ railway bridge, and the road dips down underneath it. when we get heavy _ down underneath it. when we get heavy rain. — down underneath it. when we get heavy rain, the road floods and gets closed _ heavy rain, the road floods and gets closed. .. heavy rain, the road floods and gets closed. ., , ., , , , closed. hold these thoughts, because ou have closed. hold these thoughts, because you have got — closed. hold these thoughts, because you have got lots _ closed. hold these thoughts, because you have got lots of _ closed. hold these thoughts, because you have got lots of them, _ closed. hold these thoughts, because you have got lots of them, all - you have got lots of them, all right, because we are going to break for the news and sport, is that ok? i shall hold!— i shall hold! everything diverts throuuh i shall hold! everything diverts through warrington _ i shall hold! everything diverts through warrington and - i shall hold! everything diverts through warrington and all- i shall hold! everything diverts i through warrington and all roads lead to rome. we will come back on

this and talk about ltns. there's a warning that air pollution harms everyone's health. researchers from imperial college london say it can cause chronic diseases, bring on miscarriages and affect mental health. the scientists higlighted vehicle fumes as being particularly harmful. the government says it's consulting on a revised air quality strategy. in a speech in the last half—hour, rishi sunak has criticised an anti—maths mindset. the government's setting up a review to look at how to ensure pupils in england study maths up to the age of 18. labour says more teachers are needed to make it work. the man who trained the horse that suffered a fatal fall in the grand national has blamed protesters for the animal's death. campaigners caused a delay to the start of the race at aintree on saturday. the group animal rising says its action was aimed at preventing harm to horses.

the most powerful rocket ever built is due to take off for its first full test flight this afternoon. starship — which is made by elon musk�*s spacex company — is almost 400 feet high and designed to be reusable. arsenal captain martin odergaard says they need to keep positive after dropping points in their pursuit of a first premier league title in 19 years. he says it's all still in arsenal's hands — theyre just four points ahead of holders manchester city after the gunners came from 2—0 up to draw 2—2 with west ham, the second time in a row they've relinquished they've relinquished a two—goal lead. england's matt fitzpatrickjoked he could retire after winning the rbc heritage event in south carolina on a course

where he used to have family holidays growing up — it follows on from his victory in the us open last year and round one action is back under way at the snooker world championship in sheffield, in the early stages, the opening frame between mark allen and the world number 36 fan zhengyi, while hossein vafaei has equalised against ding junhui in a match resuming from overnight, you can watch on bbc two.

and you can watch the panorama documentary on ltns on iplayer, to tell which country? i documentary on ltns on iplayer, to tell which country?— tell which country? i have to apologise — tell which country? i have to apologise to _ tell which country? i have to apologise to roland, - tell which country? i have to| apologise to roland, because tell which country? i have to i apologise to roland, because it is available now, and i should have known, we are digital first, available now, and i should have known, we are digitalfirst, you probably watched it there! i certainly did. yeah, - probably watched it there! i certainly did. yeah, good, ij probably watched it there! i i certainly did. yeah, good, i urge eve one certainly did. yeah, good, i urge everyone else — certainly did. yeah, good, i urge everyone else to _ certainly did. yeah, good, i urge everyone else to go _ certainly did. yeah, good, i urge everyone else to go and - certainly did. yeah, good, i urge everyone else to go and watch i certainly did. yeah, good, i urge| everyone else to go and watch it, because it is a great bit of television. it because it is a great bit of television.— because it is a great bit of i television._ the because it is a great bit of - television._ the bbc television. it is fantastic. the bbc does it again. _ television. it is fantastic. the bbc does it again, in _ television. it is fantastic. the bbc does it again, in so _ television. it is fantastic. the bbc does it again, in so many - television. it is fantastic. the bbc does it again, in so many ways! i does it again, in so many ways! where were we? we were with sue in warrington, i am sorry i interrupted you... you were flowing! i warrington, i am sorry i interrupted you. .. you were flowing!— you... you were flowing! i have got to net m you... you were flowing! i have got to get my groove — you... you were flowing! i have got to get my groove back _ you... you were flowing! i have got to get my groove back on _ you... you were flowing! i have got to get my groove back on now! i you... you were flowing! i have gotj to get my groove back on now! this is true. _ to get my groove back on now! this is true. there — to get my groove back on now! this

is true, there was _ to get my groove back on now! this is true, there was inadequate - is true, there was inadequate consultation. _ is true, there was inadequate consultation. i— is true, there was inadequate consultation. i mean, - is true, there was inadequate consultation. i mean, i- is true, there was inadequate consultation. i mean, ithinkl is true, there was inadequate i consultation. i mean, ithink they -ot consultation. i mean, ithink they got less— consultation. i mean, ithink they got less than _ consultation. i mean, ithink they got less than 300 _ consultation. i mean, ithink they got less than 300 responses i consultation. i mean, ithink theyj got less than 300 responses back from _ got less than 300 responses back from the — got less than 300 responses back from the two _ got less than 300 responses back from the two areas, _ got less than 300 responses back from the two areas, which - got less than 300 responses back from the two areas, which covers| from the two areas, which covers about _ from the two areas, which covers about 10.000 _ from the two areas, which covers about 10,000 people, _ from the two areas, which covers about 10,000 people, so- from the two areas, which covers about 10,000 people, so i- from the two areas, which covers about 10,000 people, so i knewl about 10,000 people, so i knew nothing — about 10,000 people, so i knew nothing about _ about 10,000 people, so i knew nothing about it _ about10,000 people, so i knew nothing about it until— about 10,000 people, so i knew nothing about it until i— about 10,000 people, so i knew nothing about it until i sign- about 10,000 people, so i knewj nothing about it until i sign went up nothing about it until i sign went up saying — nothing about it until i sign went up saying they _ nothing about it until i sign went up saying they were _ nothing about it until i sign went up saying they were going - nothing about it until i sign went up saying they were going to i up saying they were going to implement— up saying they were going to implement it. _ up saying they were going to implement it. so— up saying they were going to implement it. so everyone i up saying they were going to i implement it. so everyone kind up saying they were going to - implement it. so everyone kind of agreed _ implement it. so everyone kind of agreed consultation— implement it. so everyone kind of agreed consultation has— implement it. so everyone kind of agreed consultation has been- agreed consultation has been inadequate. _ agreed consultation has been inadequate, over— agreed consultation has been inadequate, over 80%- agreed consultation has been inadequate, over 80% of- agreed consultation has been inadequate, over 80% of the| inadequate, over 80% of the residence _ inadequate, over 80% of the residence within _ inadequate, over 80% of the residence within the - inadequate, over 80% of the residence within the currentl inadequate, over 80% of the i residence within the current ltn want _ residence within the current ltn want it— residence within the current ltn want it removed, _ residence within the current ltn want it removed, there - residence within the current ltn want it removed, there are i residence within the current ltn want it removed, there are a i residence within the current ltn want it removed, there are a lotj residence within the current ltn i want it removed, there are a lot of older— want it removed, there are a lot of older people — want it removed, there are a lot of older people living _ want it removed, there are a lot of older people living there _ want it removed, there are a lot of older people living there who - want it removed, there are a lot of older people living there who say. older people living there who say that their— older people living there who say that their carers _ older people living there who say that their carers cannot - older people living there who say that their carers cannot get - that their carers cannot get through. _ that their carers cannot get through. they— that their carers cannot get through. they are - that their carers cannot get through. they are nervousi that their carers cannot get - through. they are nervous about walking — through. they are nervous about walking on — through. they are nervous about walking on the _ through. they are nervous about walking on the pavements, i through. they are nervous abouti walking on the pavements, which through. they are nervous about i walking on the pavements, which are in a terrible _ walking on the pavements, which are in a terrible state _ walking on the pavements, which are in a terrible state of _ walking on the pavements, which are in a terrible state of disrepair, - in a terrible state of disrepair, haven't— in a terrible state of disrepair, haven't been— in a terrible state of disrepair, haven't been looked _ in a terrible state of disrepair, haven't been looked after, i in a terrible state of disrepair, i haven't been looked after, very uneven. — haven't been looked after, very uneven. the _ haven't been looked after, very uneven. the older— haven't been looked after, very uneven. the older people, i haven't been looked after, veryl uneven. the older people, they haven't been looked after, very i uneven. the older people, they do not want _ uneven. the older people, they do not want to— uneven. the older people, they do not want to walk, _ uneven. the older people, they do not want to walk, the _ uneven. the older people, they do not want to walk, the people - uneven. the older people, they dol not want to walk, the people living on boundary — not want to walk, the people living on boundary roads _ not want to walk, the people living on boundary roads are _ not want to walk, the people living on boundary roads are suffering. on boundary roads are suffering because — on boundary roads are suffering because of— on boundary roads are suffering because of traffic _ on boundary roads are suffering because of traffic jams - on boundary roads are suffering because of trafficjams outside i because of trafficjams outside their— because of trafficjams outside their houses _ because of trafficjams outside their houses all— because of trafficjams outside their houses all the _ because of trafficjams outside their houses all the time. - because of trafficjams outside their houses all the time. we i because of trafficjams outside - their houses all the time. we have had an— their houses all the time. we have had an incident— their houses all the time. we have had an incident where _ their houses all the time. we have had an incident where a _ their houses all the time. we have had an incident where a fire - their houses all the time. we have| had an incident where a fire engine had an incident where a fire engine had to— had an incident where a fire engine had to drive — had an incident where a fire engine had to drive the _ had an incident where a fire engine had to drive the wrong _ had an incident where a fire engine had to drive the wrong way- had an incident where a fire engine had to drive the wrong way around| had an incident where a fire engine i had to drive the wrong way around a very busy— had to drive the wrong way around a very busy one-way— had to drive the wrong way around a very busy one—way system - had to drive the wrong way around a very busy one—way system to - had to drive the wrong way around a very busy one—way system to get i had to drive the wrong way around a very busy one—way system to get to| had to drive the wrong way around a. very busy one—way system to get to a car fire. _ very busy one—way system to get to a car fire. it — very busy one—way system to get to a carfire it may— very busy one—way system to get to a car fire. it may not— very busy one—way system to get to a car fire. it may not have _

very busy one—way system to get to a car fire. it may not have gone - very busy one—way system to get to a car fire. it may not have gone on - car fire. it may not have gone on fire if— car fire. it may not have gone on fire if it — car fire. it may not have gone on fire if it bad _ car fire. it may not have gone on fire if it had not _ car fire. it may not have gone on fire if it had not been _ car fire. it may not have gone on fire if it had not been stuck- car fire. it may not have gone on fire if it had not been stuck in . fire if it had not been stuck in traffie — fire if it had not been stuck in traffic. people's _ fire if it had not been stuck in traffic. people'sjourney- fire if it had not been stuck in| traffic. people'sjourney times fire if it had not been stuck in - traffic. people'sjourney times have increased. — traffic. people'sjourney times have increased. we — traffic. people'sjourney times have increased, we have _ traffic. people'sjourney times have increased, we have noticed - traffic. people'sjourney times have increased, we have noticed that- traffic. people'sjourney times have increased, we have noticed that as| increased, we have noticed that as more _ increased, we have noticed that as more aggressive _ increased, we have noticed that as more aggressive driving _ increased, we have noticed that as more aggressive driving in - increased, we have noticed that as more aggressive driving in that - more aggressive driving in that area _ more aggressive driving in that area. . , more aggressive driving in that area-- yes. _ more aggressive driving in that area.- yes, it _ more aggressive driving in that area.- yes, it is - area. really? yes, it is frustration, _ area. really? yes, it is frustration, i— area. really? yes, it is frustration, i drove - area. really? yes, it is - frustration, i drove through it myself— frustration, i drove through it myself on _ frustration, i drove through it myself on friday. _ frustration, i drove through it myself on friday.— myself on friday. were you frustrated? _ myself on friday. were you frustrated? were _ myself on friday. were you frustrated? were you - myself on friday. were you - frustrated? were you aggressive? myself on friday. were you _ frustrated? were you aggressive? no, i was not, frustrated? were you aggressive? no, i was not. i— frustrated? were you aggressive? no, i was not. i was _ frustrated? were you aggressive? no, i was not, i was in the correct lane, _ i was not, i was in the correct iarre. but _ i was not, i was in the correct iarre. but the _ i was not, i was in the correct lane, but the number- i was not, i was in the correct lane, but the number of- i was not, i was in the correct i lane, but the number of people i was not, i was in the correct - lane, but the number of people who were undertaking _ lane, but the number of people who were undertaking and _ lane, but the number of people who were undertaking and then- lane, but the number of people who were undertaking and then headingi were undertaking and then heading towards _ were undertaking and then heading towards the — were undertaking and then heading towards the ltn, _ were undertaking and then heading towards the ltn, doing _ were undertaking and then heading towards the ltn, doing a _ were undertaking and then heading towards the ltn, doing a you - were undertaking and then heading towards the ltn, doing a you turni towards the ltn, doing a you turn and trying — towards the ltn, doing a you turn and trying to — towards the ltn, doing a you turn and trying to get— towards the ltn, doing a you turn and trying to get through - towards the ltn, doing a you turn and trying to get through traffic. and trying to get through traffic was unbelievable. _ and trying to get through traffic was unbelievable. so, - and trying to get through traffic was unbelievable. so, you - and trying to get through traffic. was unbelievable. so, you know, and trying to get through traffic- was unbelievable. so, you know, it is clearly— was unbelievable. so, you know, it is clearly not — was unbelievable. so, you know, it is clearly not working, _ was unbelievable. so, you know, it is clearly not working, and - was unbelievable. so, you know, it is clearly not working, and the - is clearly not working, and the other— is clearly not working, and the other thing _ is clearly not working, and the other thing is— is clearly not working, and the other thing is there _ is clearly not working, and the other thing is there are - is clearly not working, and the other thing is there are quite i is clearly not working, and the| other thing is there are quite a is clearly not working, and the - other thing is there are quite a few pedestrian— other thing is there are quite a few pedestrian crossings _ other thing is there are quite a few pedestrian crossings in _ other thing is there are quite a few pedestrian crossings in that - other thing is there are quite a few pedestrian crossings in that place. | pedestrian crossings in that place. an 80 _ pedestrian crossings in that place. an 80 something _ pedestrian crossings in that place. an 80 something —year—old - pedestrian crossings in that place. an 80 something —year—old lady. pedestrian crossings in that place. l an 80 something —year—old lady got hit on _ an 80 something —year—old lady got hit on a _ an 80 something —year—old lady got hit on a zebra — an 80 something —year—old lady got hit on a zebra crossing _ an 80 something —year—old lady got hit on a zebra crossing and - an 80 something —year—old lady got hit on a zebra crossing and had - an 80 something —year—old lady got hit on a zebra crossing and had to. hit on a zebra crossing and had to be airtifted — hit on a zebra crossing and had to be airlifted to _ hit on a zebra crossing and had to be airlifted to hospital— hit on a zebra crossing and had to be airlifted to hospital serious - be airlifted to hospital serious injuries — be airlifted to hospital serious injuries i_ be airlifted to hospital serious injuries tam _ be airlifted to hospital serious injuries. i am not _ be airlifted to hospital serious injuries. i am not saying - be airlifted to hospital serious injuries. i am not saying that| be airlifted to hospital serious i injuries. i am not saying that was caused _ injuries. i am not saying that was caused by— injuries. i am not saying that was caused by the _ injuries. i am not saying that was caused by the ltn _ injuries. i am not saying that was caused by the ltn or— injuries. i am not saying that was caused by the ltn or the - injuries. i am not saying that was caused by the ltn or the driver. injuries. i am not saying that was . caused by the ltn or the driver was aggressive, — caused by the ltn or the driver was aggressive, i— caused by the ltn or the driver was aggressive, i don't _ caused by the ltn or the driver was aggressive, i don't know. _ caused by the ltn or the driver was aggressive, i don't know. you - caused by the ltn or the driver was aggressive, i don't know.- aggressive, i don't know. you don't like them. — aggressive, i don't know. you don't like them. do _ aggressive, i don't know. you don't like them, do you? _ aggressive, i don't know. you don't like them, do you? no, _ aggressive, i don't know. you don't like them, do you? no, i'm - aggressive, i don't know. you don't like them, do you? no, i'm very . like them, do you? no, i'm very o- osed

like them, do you? no, i'm very apposed to _ like them, do you? no, i'm very opposed to them _ like them, do you? no, i'm very opposed to them in _ like them, do you? no, i'm very opposed to them in this - like them, do you? no, i'm very opposed to them in this town, l opposed to them in this town, because — opposed to them in this town, because we _ opposed to them in this town, because we simply— opposed to them in this town, because we simply don't - opposed to them in this town, because we simply don't have| opposed to them in this town, . because we simply don't have the infrastructure. _ because we simply don't have the infrastructure. we _ because we simply don't have the infrastructure. we don't - because we simply don't have the infrastructure. we don't have - because we simply don't have the infrastructure. we don't have a i because we simply don't have the i infrastructure. we don't have a good bus service, — infrastructure. we don't have a good bus service, everything _ infrastructure. we don't have a good bus service, everything has - infrastructure. we don't have a good bus service, everything has to - infrastructure. we don't have a good bus service, everything has to go - bus service, everything has to go via the _ bus service, everything has to go via the town— bus service, everything has to go via the town centre, _ bus service, everything has to go via the town centre, so _ bus service, everything has to go via the town centre, so you - bus service, everything has to go. via the town centre, so you always have _ via the town centre, so you always have to _ via the town centre, so you always have to take — via the town centre, so you always have to take two _ via the town centre, so you always have to take two buses _ via the town centre, so you always have to take two buses unless - via the town centre, so you always have to take two buses unless you j have to take two buses unless you are going — have to take two buses unless you are going into— have to take two buses unless you are going into town. _ have to take two buses unless you are going into town. so, _ have to take two buses unless you are going into town.— have to take two buses unless you are going into town. so, roland in a second, are going into town. so, roland in a second. but — are going into town. so, roland in a second, but justin _ are going into town. so, roland in a second, but justin rowlatt... - are going into town. so, roland in a second, but justin rowlatt... let. are going into town. so, roland in a| second, but justin rowlatt... let me 'um in second, but justin rowlatt... let me jump in on — second, but justin rowlatt... let me jump in on the _ second, but justin rowlatt... let me jump in on the issue _ second, but justin rowlatt... let me jump in on the issue of _ jump in on the issue of consultation... i jump in on the issue of consultation. . .- jump in on the issue of consultation... ., �* . ., consultation... i don't want to get too far into _ consultation... i don't want to get too far into that, _ consultation... i don't want to get too far into that, because - consultation... i don't want to get too far into that, because there i consultation... i don't want to get. too far into that, because there are council elections coming up.- council elections coming up. there is a oint council elections coming up. there is a point that _ council elections coming up. there is a point that will— council elections coming up. there is a point that will not _ council elections coming up. there is a point that will not influence i is a point that will not influence local elections. they say you cannot make a judgment about whether you want a low traffic neighbourhood until you have experienced it, so they do tend to ask people first, but then they introduce them for a period, normally about a year or a year and a half, to see whether people like it once they have experienced it. so there is an argument, how can you judge something until you have experienced it? that is one of the reasons why

sometimes local authorities decide to go against what appears to be the wishes of people when they are consulted about it. i wishes of people when they are consulted about it.— wishes of people when they are consulted about it. i will take that on board, consulted about it. i will take that on board. but— consulted about it. i will take that on board, but our— consulted about it. i will take that on board, but our consultation - consulted about it. i will take that| on board, but our consultation was consulted about it. i will take that i on board, but our consultation was a heavily— on board, but our consultation was a heavily loaded — on board, but our consultation was a heavily loaded questionnaire. - on board, but our consultation was a heavily loaded questionnaire. how. heavily loaded questionnaire. how important — heavily loaded questionnaire. how important is — heavily loaded questionnaire. how important is it— heavily loaded questionnaire. how important is it that _ heavily loaded questionnaire. how important is it that you _ heavily loaded questionnaire. how important is it that you have - important is it that you have cleaner— important is it that you have cleaner air— important is it that you have cleanerair on— important is it that you have cleanerair on a _ important is it that you have cleaner air on a scale - important is it that you have cleaner air on a scale of- important is it that you have cleaner air on a scale of one| important is it that you have . cleaner air on a scale of one to ten? _ cleaner air on a scale of one to ten? how— cleaner air on a scale of one to ten? how important _ cleaner air on a scale of one to ten? how important is - cleaner air on a scale of one to ten? how important is it- cleaner air on a scale of one to ten? how important is it to - cleaner air on a scale of one to| ten? how important is it to you cleaner air on a scale of one to - ten? how important is it to you that you have _ ten? how important is it to you that you have adequate _ ten? how important is it to you that you have adequate street _ ten? how important is it to you that you have adequate street lighting. ten? how important is it to you that| you have adequate street lighting on a scale _ you have adequate street lighting on a scale of— you have adequate street lighting on a scale of one — you have adequate street lighting on a scale of one to _ you have adequate street lighting on a scale of one to ten? _ you have adequate street lighting on a scale of one to ten? how- you have adequate street lighting on| a scale of one to ten? how important is it to _ a scale of one to ten? how important is it to you _ a scale of one to ten? how important is it to you that — a scale of one to ten? how important is it to you that your— a scale of one to ten? how important is it to you that your residential - is it to you that your residential streets — is it to you that your residential streets are _ is it to you that your residential streets are quieter— is it to you that your residential streets are quieter on - is it to you that your residential streets are quieter on a - is it to you that your residential streets are quieter on a scale . is it to you that your residential| streets are quieter on a scale of one to _ streets are quieter on a scale of one to ten? _ streets are quieter on a scale of one to ten? no— streets are quieter on a scale of one to ten? no mention- streets are quieter on a scale of one to ten? no mention of, - streets are quieter on a scale of one to ten? no mention of, we| streets are quieter on a scale of. one to ten? no mention of, we will block— one to ten? no mention of, we will block vour— one to ten? no mention of, we will block your road. _ one to ten? no mention of, we will block your road, we _ one to ten? no mention of, we will block your road, we will— one to ten? no mention of, we will block your road, we will put - one to ten? no mention of, we will block your road, we will put in - one to ten? no mention of, we will block your road, we will put in bus| block your road, we will put in bus gates _ block your road, we will put in bus gates to _ block your road, we will put in bus gates to find — block your road, we will put in bus gates to find people... _ block your road, we will put in bus gates to find people... so - block your road, we will put in bus gates to find people. . ._ gates to find people... so how important _ gates to find people... so how important is — gates to find people... so how important is it _ gates to find people... so how important is it that _ gates to find people... so how important is it that they - gates to find people... so how important is it that they didn't| important is it that they didn't tell you about the roadblock? was that roland coming in? sue...!i tell you about the roadblock? was that roland coming in? sue...! i can that roland coming in? sue...! i can tell ou, that roland coming in? sue...! i can tell you. living _ that roland coming in? sue...! i can tell you, living through _ that roland coming in? sue...! i can tell you, living through our enfield experience, the consultations have been _ experience, the consultations have been a _ experience, the consultations have been a farce. from day one, hard landscaping — been a farce. from day one, hard

landscaping was done on the pavements, changing whole designs. there _ pavements, changing whole designs. there was— pavements, changing whole designs. there was no intention of ever reversing _ there was no intention of ever reversing this, and they pretty much made _ reversing this, and they pretty much made that— reversing this, and they pretty much made that clear through out. the council— made that clear through out. the council has — made that clear through out. the council has very much went to ground — council has very much went to ground. they held closed groups, so they weren't broadcast, it was done during _ they weren't broadcast, it was done during lockdown, which made it easier— during lockdown, which made it easier for— during lockdown, which made it easier for them to do that, and the biggest _ easier for them to do that, and the biggest injustice, which is still happening now, you have cycling tobbies. — happening now, you have cycling lobbies, campaign groups such as cis trans~~ _ lobbies, campaign groups such as cis trans~~ |_ lobbies, campaign groups such as cis trans... . , ., , trans... i am sorry to stop you there, trans... i am sorry to stop you there. but — trans... i am sorry to stop you there, but i've _ trans... i am sorry to stop you there, but i've got _ trans... i am sorry to stop you there, but i've got my - trans. .. i am sorry to stop you there, but i've got my bbc- trans... i am sorry to stop youj there, but i've got my bbc hat trans... i am sorry to stop you - there, but i've got my bbc hat on, what is a bbc hat like? i don't want you going into a consultation processes because we will have to call the whole thing off. thea;r call the whole thing off. they cannot be — call the whole thing off. they cannot be done _ call the whole thing off. they cannot be done independently... call the whole thing off. they - cannot be done independently... got ou! cannot be done independently... you! lizzie, in cannot be done independently... (it�*ll you! lizzie, in south london, hello.

how are you? a light i am very well, you live in one, do you? i live in a beautiful, quiet road where children can cycle and it is very safe. this is my consultation _ can cycle and it is very safe. this is my consultation process, i am consulting new. but is my consultation process, i am consulting new.— consulting new. but what is so unfair, i look _ consulting new. but what is so unfair, i look around _ consulting new. but what is so unfair, i look around my - consulting new. but what is so unfair, i look around my area, | consulting new. but what is so | unfair, i look around my area, i consulting new. but what is so - unfair, i look around my area, i see unfair, i look around my area, isee buses unfair, i look around my area, i see buses delayed, traffic pushed on boundary roads, one of those being the south circular, and i don't know whether you have heard, we had a young girl die, on her death certificate it was put down as pollution, because of mother campaigned and campaigned to have that put on, and we are pushing more and more traffic onto the south circular, which is, in most places, just a two single lane road, not a main road, and people is being pushed on there, and it is the unfairness. i want something that is fairfor unfairness. i want something that is fair for everybody. let's get rid of

these rat runs, let's stop traffic using these roads in peak times, but let's have them open at other times. i think we have the largest ltn in london, and one of the roads that can only be used one—way, it is one of the main thoroughfares for the hospital. and that is just not fair, it is not fair. we just want things fairfor it is not fair. we just want things fair for everybody, it is not fair. we just want things fairfor everybody, and it is not fair. we just want things fair for everybody, and yes we absolutely want to cut pollution, we want to have more active travel, but for everybody, notjust lovely roads like my road that i am very privileged to live in, i am very lucky. privileged to live in, i am very luc . . . ~ , privileged to live in, i am very luc . , ., . , , privileged to live in, i am very luc . , . . , lucky. christina in witney is coming u . lucky. christina in witney is coming u- and lucky. christina in witney is coming up and christina _ lucky. christina in witney is coming up and christina in _ lucky. christina in witney is coming up and christina in islington - lucky. christina in witney is coming up and christina in islington as - up and christina in islington as well. but let me bring neill in greenwich on first of all, because sue in warrington, hello, just checking you are still there,... i am, because i have one more point to make. taste am, because i have one more point to make. ~ . am, because i have one more point to make. ~ , , ., .

am, because i have one more point to make. ~ , i. . . ., make. we will put you in a dialogue with nail in — make. we will put you in a dialogue with nail in greenwich, _ make. we will put you in a dialogue with nail in greenwich, greenwich i make. we will put you in a dialogue| with nail in greenwich, greenwich to warrington, hands across the water, do you like them?— do you like them? yes, i support them, i believe _ do you like them? yes, i support them, i believe we _ do you like them? yes, i support them, i believe we need - do you like them? yes, i support them, i believe we need to - do you like them? yes, i support. them, i believe we need to reduce them, i believe we need to reduce the number— them, i believe we need to reduce the number of vehicles on the road. we know— the number of vehicles on the road. we know that over the last ten years. — we know that over the last ten years, there are another 4.5 million vehictes _ years, there are another 4.5 million vehicles on — years, there are another 4.5 million vehicles on the road, we know that we are _ vehicles on the road, we know that we are building more and more properties, so we will have higher population— properties, so we will have higher population coming along. we are not going _ population coming along. we are not going to _ population coming along. we are not going to be _ population coming along. we are not going to be able to move people around _ going to be able to move people around as— going to be able to move people around as we used to with cars everywhere, and we need to move forward _ everywhere, and we need to move forward and — everywhere, and we need to move forward and find more suitable methods— forward and find more suitable methods of moving people around, because _ methods of moving people around, because we haven't got the space. i live in— because we haven't got the space. i live in london, we haven't got the space _ live in london, we haven't got the space for— live in london, we haven't got the space for everyone to get in the car. space for everyone to get in the car so— space for everyone to get in the car so we — space for everyone to get in the car. so we need to start moving on to new— car. so we need to start moving on to new ideas — car. so we need to start moving on to new ideas and getting people out of cars. _ to new ideas and getting people out of cars. as _ to new ideas and getting people out of cars, as we know, the air pollution _ of cars, as we know, the air pollution is _

of cars, as we know, the air pollution is killing people, and we have got— pollution is killing people, and we have got to restricted. we have got somewhere around 60 roads closed in the greenwich area, and they have been _ the greenwich area, and they have been in _ the greenwich area, and they have been in for— the greenwich area, and they have been in forten, the greenwich area, and they have been in for ten, 20, the greenwich area, and they have been in forten, 20, 30 the greenwich area, and they have been in for ten, 20, 30 years, the greenwich area, and they have been in forten, 20, 30 years, some of these _ been in forten, 20, 30 years, some ofthese~ but— been in forten, 20, 30 years, some of these. but they are there protecting people. we know that 63% of the _ protecting people. we know that 63% of the adults in this country are obese — of the adults in this country are obese or— of the adults in this country are obese or overweight, and people are living _ obese or overweight, and people are living much— obese or overweight, and people are living much more sedentary lifestyles, part of that is driving, some _ lifestyles, part of that is driving, some of— lifestyles, part of that is driving, some of it — lifestyles, part of that is driving, some of it is computers and television, but we need people to -et television, but we need people to get out _ television, but we need people to get out and move, to become more active, _ get out and move, to become more active. to _ get out and move, to become more active. to be — get out and move, to become more active, to be healthier. it is get out and move, to become more active, to be healthier.— active, to be healthier. it is an important _ active, to be healthier. it is an important point _ active, to be healthier. it is an important point to _ active, to be healthier. it is an important point to make, - active, to be healthier. it is an i important point to make, neil... active, to be healthier. it is an - important point to make, neil... we have got to support the nhs, because otherwise more and more people will

be needing the nhs at a time when we have problems with the numbers of people using it. ijust want to remind people, because you remind them very well, ijust remind people, because you remind them very well, i just want to reiterate that it is about cutting air pollution but about making us fitter and healthier as well, and thatis fitter and healthier as well, and that is a vital point, sue. it fitter and healthier as well, and that is a vital point, sue.- that is a vital point, sue. it is. however. _ that is a vital point, sue. it is. however. i— that is a vital point, sue. it is. however, i would _ that is a vital point, sue. it is. however, i would come - that is a vital point, sue. it is. however, i would come back | that is a vital point, sue. it is. l however, i would come back on that is a vital point, sue. it is. - however, i would come back on that, in that warrington is about 220 miles north of greenwich. we are a very wet town, we get a lot of rain. now, i am very wet town, we get a lot of rain. now, lam not very wet town, we get a lot of rain. now, i am not going to cycle to work carrying three laptops on my back, even though it is only three and a half miles, the three laptops i carry every day, and i come home every lunchtime to let the dogs out. i am not going to do the journey on a bike and get my laptop soaking wet. we have a lot of rain here. you have also got, and i have been in

this position myself, as a single parent, you have to drop your child at nursery or primary school in the opposite direction to work, then you have to get to work on time and back before the after school club finishes, and it is very difficult to do that even when you are driving, and i have based myself close to work, i haven't always lived in warrington, but i have based myself close to work because i was a single parent and i needed to be able to cram everything into that working day. which is not easy to do. ~ ., , working day. which is not easy to do. . ., , ., working day. which is not easy to do. .,, . ., do. who is that in the background talkin: ? i do. who is that in the background talking? i have _ do. who is that in the background talking? i have got _ do. who is that in the background talking? i have got no-one - do. who is that in the background talking? i have got no-one in - do. who is that in the background talking? i have got no-one in the | talking? i have got no-one in the background _ talking? i have got no-one in the background i— talking? i have got no-one in the background. i heard _ talking? i have got no-one in the background. i heard someone - background. i heard someone commenting. _ background. i heard someone commenting. sorry, - background. i heard someone commenting. sorry, neil. - background. i heard someone | commenting. sorry, neil. 0h, background. i heard someone . commenting. sorry, neil. 0h, go background. i heard someone - commenting. sorry, neil. 0h, go on, kneel, commenting. sorry, neil. 0h, go on, kneel. let's — commenting. sorry, neil. 0h, go on, kneel, let's share _ commenting. sorry, neil. 0h, go on, kneel, let's share the _ commenting. sorry, neil. 0h, go on, kneel, let's share the love. _ commenting. sorry, neil. 0h, go on, kneel, let's share the love. well, - commenting. sorry, neil. 0h, go on, kneel, let's share the love. well, i i kneel, let's share the love. well, i think ou kneel, let's share the love. well, i think you can't _ kneel, let's share the love. well, i think you can't move _ kneel, let's share the love. well, i think you can't move around - kneel, let's share the love. well, i i think you can't move around because there _ think you can't move around because there is— think you can't move around because there is so— think you can't move around because there is so much of a trafficjam, and if— there is so much of a trafficjam, and if you — there is so much of a trafficjam, and if you continue to add more cars onto the _ and if you continue to add more cars onto the roads, which we are doing,

we are _ onto the roads, which we are doing, we are encouraging people to buy cars. _ we are encouraging people to buy cars. so— we are encouraging people to buy cars. so it — we are encouraging people to buy cars. so it is— we are encouraging people to buy cars, so it isjust going to get more — cars, so it isjust going to get more and _ cars, so it isjust going to get more and more packed on the roads. warrington _ more and more packed on the roads. warrington is a very different scenario to anywhere in london, we don't have good public transport infrastructure. even to get to the next town isn't easy. we have very good train services, which i would always use preferably to the car to get to manchester or liverpool or chester, all the surrounding cities i can get to very easily on public transport, not by bus. but the buses within this town, every single bus service goes via the bus station, so unless you want to go to town or somewhere on that route, you have always got to take two buses. i somewhere on that route, you have always got to take two buses. i need to ut this always got to take two buses. i need to put this to — always got to take two buses. i need to put this to justin, _ always got to take two buses. i need to put this to justin, hang _ always got to take two buses. i need to put this to justin, hang on - always got to take two buses. i need to put this to justin, hang on a - to put this tojustin, hang on a minute, you have said loads and said it very well. flan minute, you have said loads and said it very well-— it very well. can i askjustin something? _ it very well. can i askjustin something? you _

it very well. can i askjustin something? you can - it very well. can i askjustin something? you can in - it very well. can i askjustin something? you can in a i it very well. can i askjustin - something? you can in a second. bring _ something? you can in a second. bring it— something? you can in a second. bring it on! — something? you can in a second. bring it on! let— something? you can in a second. bring it on!— all bring it on! let him have it! it is all very well— bring it on! let him have it! it is all very well putting _ bring it on! let him have it! it is all very well putting these - bring it on! let him have it! it is. all very well putting these systems and schemes in, but the infrastructure is not right, it is hugely counter—productive. infrastructure is not right, it is hugely counter-productive. yeah, i think that is _ hugely counter-productive. yeah, i think that is right, _ hugely counter-productive. yeah, i think that is right, and _ hugely counter-productive. yeah, i think that is right, and i _ hugely counter-productive. yeah, i think that is right, and i think - think that is right, and i think there is an issue that the local authorities that put in place the low traffic neighbourhoods are not necessarily the same ones who will be deciding what the prices of local transport is, public transport is, or what the roots are. so there needs to be more planning between all the authorities to make sure that it all knits together, i think that it all knits together, i think thatis that it all knits together, i think that is a very fair point.- that it all knits together, i think that is a very fair point. well, in warrington. _ that is a very fair point. well, in warrington, our _ that is a very fair point. well, in warrington, our bus _ that is a very fair point. well, in warrington, our bus service - that is a very fair point. well, in warrington, our bus service is l warrington, our bus service is actually — warrington, our bus service is actually a _ warrington, our bus service is actually a municipal bus service... you should — actually a municipal bus service... you should have your own shall, by the way. you should have your own shall, by the wa . . you should have your own shall, by thewa. . ~ you should have your own shall, by thewa. . . you should have your own shall, by thewa. . ~ ., ,, you should have your own shall, by thewa. . ~ . ,, . the way. thanks! we can talk about that later. have _ the way. thanks! we can talk about that later. have a _ the way. thanks! we can talk about

that later. have a word! _ the way. thanks! we can talk about that later. have a word! if - the way. thanks! we can talk about that later. have a word! if anyone l that later. have a word! if anyone takes redundancy, _ that later. have a word! if anyone takes redundancy, you _ that later. have a word! if anyone takes redundancy, you can - that later. have a word! if anyone takes redundancy, you can take i that later. have a word! if anyone i takes redundancy, you can take their job. lazy in south london, hello. hello. ijust heard neil saying about— hello. ijust heard neil saying about how— hello. ijust heard neil saying about how lovely— hello. ijust heard neil saying about how lovely greenwich l hello. ijust heard neil saying. about how lovely greenwich is, i hello. ijust heard neil saying - about how lovely greenwich is, i am in the _ about how lovely greenwich is, i am in the next — about how lovely greenwich is, i am in the next borough, _ about how lovely greenwich is, i am in the next borough, and _ about how lovely greenwich is, i am in the next borough, and i- about how lovely greenwich is, i am in the next borough, and i want - about how lovely greenwich is, i am in the next borough, and i want neil to say— in the next borough, and i want neil to say how— in the next borough, and i want neil to say how good _ in the next borough, and i want neil to say how good trafalgar _ in the next borough, and i want neil to say how good trafalgar road - in the next borough, and i want neil to say how good trafalgar road and i to say how good trafalgar road and wootwich _ to say how good trafalgar road and wootwich road _ to say how good trafalgar road and woolwich road is. _ to say how good trafalgar road and woolwich road is. the _ to say how good trafalgar road and woolwich road is. the traffic- to say how good trafalgar road and woolwich road is. the traffic is - woolwich road is. the traffic is appalling, _ woolwich road is. the traffic is appalling, because _ woolwich road is. the traffic is appalling, because apart - woolwich road is. the traffic is appalling, because apart froml woolwich road is. the traffic is - appalling, because apart from these little pockets — appalling, because apart from these little pockets of _ appalling, because apart from these little pockets of lovely _ appalling, because apart from these little pockets of lovely roads, - appalling, because apart from these little pockets of lovely roads, it - little pockets of lovely roads, it is being — little pockets of lovely roads, it is being pushed _ little pockets of lovely roads, it is being pushed onto _ little pockets of lovely roads, it is being pushed onto the - little pockets of lovely roads, it is being pushed onto the samel little pockets of lovely roads, it - is being pushed onto the same roads. i have _ is being pushed onto the same roads. i have seen— is being pushed onto the same roads. i have seen the — is being pushed onto the same roads. i have seen the traffic _ is being pushed onto the same roads. i have seen the trafficjams _ is being pushed onto the same roads. i have seen the trafficjams in - is being pushed onto the same roads. i have seen the trafficjams in the - i have seen the trafficjams in the morning. — i have seen the trafficjams in the morning. it — i have seen the trafficjams in the morning. it is— i have seen the trafficjams in the morning, it is horrendous. - i have seen the trafficjams in the morning, it is horrendous. we - i have seen the trafficjams in the l morning, it is horrendous. we just want _ morning, it is horrendous. we just want fairness _ morning, it is horrendous. we just want fairness for— morning, it is horrendous. we just want fairness for everybody. - want fairness for everybody. obviously. _ want fairness for everybody. obviously, in _ want fairness for everybody. obviously, in an _ want fairness for everybody. obviously, in an ideal- want fairness for everybody. | obviously, in an ideal world, want fairness for everybody. . obviously, in an ideal world, no cars: _ obviously, in an ideal world, no cars. we — obviously, in an ideal world, no cars, we could _ obviously, in an ideal world, no cars, we could walk— obviously, in an ideal world, no cars, we could walk or- obviously, in an ideal world, no cars, we could walk or cycle - cars, we could walk or cycle everywhere, _ cars, we could walk or cycle everywhere, but _ cars, we could walk or cycle everywhere, but that - cars, we could walk or cycle everywhere, but that is - cars, we could walk or cycle everywhere, but that is not| cars, we could walk or cycle - everywhere, but that is not going to happen— everywhere, but that is not going to happen at— everywhere, but that is not going to happen at the — everywhere, but that is not going to happen at the moment, _ everywhere, but that is not going to happen at the moment, so - everywhere, but that is not going to happen at the moment, so let's - everywhere, but that is not going to l happen at the moment, so let's make it more _ happen at the moment, so let's make it more fair, _ happen at the moment, so let's make it more fair, more _ happen at the moment, so let's make it more fair, more timed _ happen at the moment, so let's make it more fair, more timed closures, - it more fair, more timed closures, make _ it more fair, more timed closures, make it _ it more fair, more timed closures, make it able — it more fair, more timed closures, make it able for— it more fair, more timed closures, make it able for everybody - it more fair, more timed closures, make it able for everybody to - it more fair, more timed closures, make it able for everybody to getl make it able for everybody to get around _ make it able for everybody to get around and — make it able for everybody to get around and have _ make it able for everybody to get around and have the _ make it able for everybody to get around and have the choice - make it able for everybody to get around and have the choice if- make it able for everybody to getl around and have the choice if they want _ around and have the choice if they want to _ around and have the choice if they want to use — around and have the choice if they want to use a _ around and have the choice if they want to use a car, _ around and have the choice if they want to use a car, they— around and have the choice if they want to use a car, they can, - around and have the choice if they want to use a car, they can, but . want to use a car, they can, but they— want to use a car, they can, but they can — want to use a car, they can, but they can also _ want to use a car, they can, but they can also cycle _ want to use a car, they can, but they can also cycle or— want to use a car, they can, but they can also cycle or walk - want to use a car, they can, but they can also cycle or walk or. want to use a car, they can, but. they can also cycle or walk or use public— they can also cycle or walk or use public transport. _ they can also cycle or walk or use public transport. but _ they can also cycle or walk or use

public transport. but even - they can also cycle or walk or use public transport. but even in - public transport. but even in london. _ public transport. but even in london. it— public transport. but even in london. it is— public transport. but even in london, it is not— public transport. but even in london, it is not great, - public transport. but even in london, it is not great, andl public transport. but even in . london, it is not great, and we public transport. but even in - london, it is not great, and we have had tiuses_ london, it is not great, and we have had buses diverted _ london, it is not great, and we have had buses diverted and _ london, it is not great, and we have had buses diverted and stopped. - london, it is not great, and we have had buses diverted and stopped. so| had buses diverted and stopped. so it doesh't_ had buses diverted and stopped. so it doesn't matter, _ had buses diverted and stopped. so it doesn't matter, we _ had buses diverted and stopped. so it doesn't matter, we are _ had buses diverted and stopped. so it doesn't matter, we are in- had buses diverted and stopped. so| it doesn't matter, we are in london, we still have — it doesn't matter, we are in london, we still have huge _ it doesn't matter, we are in london, we still have huge problems - it doesn't matter, we are in london, we still have huge problems with. we still have huge problems with public— we still have huge problems with public transport. _ we still have huge problems with public transport.— we still have huge problems with public transport._ the j public transport. christina... the idea of putting — public transport. christina... the idea of putting these _ public transport. christina... the idea of putting these in - public transport. christina... the idea of putting these in is - public transport. christina... the idea of putting these in is surely | idea of putting these in is surely completely against what you are trying to do, because you have said you get a lot of traffic, but if you closed some of these roads during the morning rush, that is exactly when you are going to build up traffic. ~ ., , �* ., , traffic. when it doesn't need to be done 24/7- — traffic. when it doesn't need to be done 24/7. school _ traffic. when it doesn't need to be done 24/7. school streets - traffic. when it doesn't need to be done 24/7. school streets have - traffic. when it doesn't need to be l done 24/7. school streets have been proven— done 24/7. school streets have been proven to _ done 24/7. school streets have been proven to be — done 24/7. school streets have been proven to be such _ done 24/7. school streets have been proven to be such good _ done 24/7. school streets have been proven to be such good ideas, - done 24/7. school streets have been proven to be such good ideas, for. proven to be such good ideas, for safety. _ proven to be such good ideas, for safety, for— proven to be such good ideas, for safety, for everything. _ proven to be such good ideas, for safety, for everything. so, - proven to be such good ideas, for safety, for everything. so, yes, l proven to be such good ideas, for. safety, for everything. so, yes, why should _ safety, for everything. so, yes, why should you — safety, for everything. so, yes, why should you not _ safety, for everything. so, yes, why should you not be _ safety, for everything. so, yes, why should you not be able _ safety, for everything. so, yes, why should you not be able to _ safety, for everything. so, yes, why should you not be able to use - safety, for everything. so, yes, why should you not be able to use the l should you not be able to use the road _ should you not be able to use the road at _ should you not be able to use the road at two — should you not be able to use the road at two o'clock— should you not be able to use the road at two o'clock in _ should you not be able to use the road at two o'clock in the - should you not be able to use the | road at two o'clock in the morning when _ road at two o'clock in the morning when there — road at two o'clock in the morning when there is— road at two o'clock in the morning when there is no _ road at two o'clock in the morning when there is no traffic _ road at two o'clock in the morning when there is no traffic on - road at two o'clock in the morning when there is no traffic on it? - when there is no traffic on it? those — when there is no traffic on it? those children— when there is no traffic on it? those children going - when there is no traffic on it? those children going to - when there is no traffic on it? | those children going to school when there is no traffic on it? - those children going to school down to walk 20 yards, the school street is just local to there. when they are walking let's say half a mile to

the school, it is the half a mile they are in danger. when you go to other countries like holland, you look out the window, as the lady said earlier, the kids going to school on their own gives them an extra eight hours to go to work, and 25% of the traffic on the roads in the morning is parents taking children to school. it is counter—productive. and about the idea of consultations, should we not have banned smoking, and should we not really have given in when we said we wanted seat belts in cars? they have improved people's health and life so much better... qm. they have improved people's health and life so much better...— and life so much better... ok, i want to bring — and life so much better... ok, i want to bring some _ and life so much better... ok, i want to bring some other- and life so much better... ok, i | want to bring some other voices and life so much better... ok, i - want to bring some other voices in, thatis want to bring some other voices in, that is interesting, you see this as a significant advance, progress in human civilisation, and that is an

argument i know a lot of people hold to. i am looking at the text here, but a lot of people do not. christina, hello. hi! love them or hate them, which is it? i- christina, hello. hi! love them or hate them, which is it? i actually| hate them, which is it? i actually reall like hate them, which is it? i actually really like them, _ hate them, which is it? i actually really like them, listening - hate them, which is it? i actually really like them, listening to - really like them, listening to everyohe _ really like them, listening to everyone who _ really like them, listening to everyone who has _ really like them, listening to everyone who has been - really like them, listening to everyone who has been on . really like them, listening to i everyone who has been on the really like them, listening to - everyone who has been on the show, i think a _ everyone who has been on the show, i think a lot _ everyone who has been on the show, i think a lot of— everyone who has been on the show, i think a lot of these _ everyone who has been on the show, i think a lot of these people _ everyone who has been on the show, i think a lot of these people are - think a lot of these people are drivers. — think a lot of these people are drivers. and— think a lot of these people are drivers, and i— think a lot of these people are drivers, and i know— think a lot of these people are drivers, and i know everyone i think a lot of these people are - drivers, and i know everyone talks about, _ drivers, and i know everyone talks about, what— drivers, and i know everyone talks about, what about _ drivers, and i know everyone talks about, what about our _ drivers, and i know everyone talks about, what about our rights? - drivers, and i know everyone talks i about, what about our rights? well, actually. _ about, what about our rights? well, actually. is— about, what about our rights? well, actually. is it— about, what about our rights? well, actually, is it a — about, what about our rights? well, actually, is it a right _ about, what about our rights? well, actually, is it a right to _ about, what about our rights? well, actually, is it a right to drive? - about, what about our rights? well, actually, is it a right to drive? is - actually, is it a right to drive? is that— actually, is it a right to drive? is that a _ actually, is it a right to drive? is that a right? _ actually, is it a right to drive? is that a right? i_ actually, is it a right to drive? is that a right? ithink— actually, is it a right to drive? is that a right? i think having - actually, is it a right to drive? is that a right? i think having all. that a right? i think having all these — that a right? i think having all these ltns— that a right? i think having all these ltns through _ that a right? i think having all these ltns through oxford, l that a right? i think having all these ltns through oxford, i| that a right? i think having all- these ltns through oxford, i have seen _ these ltns through oxford, i have seen an— these ltns through oxford, i have seen an increase _ these ltns through oxford, i have seen an increase in _ these ltns through oxford, i have seen an increase in people - these ltns through oxford, i have seen an increase in people using l these ltns through oxford, i have . seen an increase in people using the street _ seen an increase in people using the street we _ seen an increase in people using the street we have _ seen an increase in people using the street we have a _ seen an increase in people using the street. we have a road _ seen an increase in people using the street. we have a road closure - seen an increase in people using the street. we have a road closure on. street. we have a road closure on our high _ street. we have a road closure on our high street. _ street. we have a road closure on our high street, although - street. we have a road closure on our high street, although not - street. we have a road closure on our high street, although not an. our high street, although not an ltn, _ our high street, although not an ltn. or— our high street, although not an ltn. or maybe _ our high street, although not an ltn, or maybe they— our high street, although not an ltn, or maybe they are, - our high street, although not an ltn, or maybe they are, and . our high street, although not an ltn, or maybe they are, and i. our high street, although not an- ltn, or maybe they are, and i think it is fantastic. — ltn, or maybe they are, and i think it is fantastic, and _ ltn, or maybe they are, and i think it is fantastic, and we _ ltn, or maybe they are, and i think it is fantastic, and we have - ltn, or maybe they are, and i think it is fantastic, and we have a - ltn, or maybe they are, and i think it is fantastic, and we have a smalll it is fantastic, and we have a small nrinority— it is fantastic, and we have a small minority of— it is fantastic, and we have a small minority of people _ it is fantastic, and we have a small minority of people who _ it is fantastic, and we have a small minority of people who are - it is fantastic, and we have a small minority of people who are really i minority of people who are really against _ minority of people who are really against it. — minority of people who are really against it. and _ minority of people who are really against it, and it— minority of people who are really against it, and it feels _ minority of people who are really against it, and it feels like - minority of people who are really against it, and it feels like those| against it, and it feels like those are the _ against it, and it feels like those are the only— against it, and it feels like those are the only voices _ against it, and it feels like those are the only voices that - against it, and it feels like those are the only voices that are - against it, and it feels like those i are the only voices that are being heard _ are the only voices that are being heard at— are the only voices that are being heard at the _ are the only voices that are being heard at the moment. _ are the only voices that are being heard at the moment. you - are the only voices that are being heard at the moment. you don'tl are the only voices that are being - heard at the moment. you don't hear many— heard at the moment. you don't hear many people — heard at the moment. you don't hear many people who _

heard at the moment. you don't hear many people who are _ heard at the moment. you don't hear many people who are out _ heard at the moment. you don't hear many people who are out for- heard at the moment. you don't hear many people who are out for eight, l many people who are out for eight, and you _ many people who are out for eight, and you only— many people who are out for eight, and you only hear— many people who are out for eight, and you only hear the _ many people who are out for eight, and you only hear the bad - many people who are out for eight, and you only hear the bad stuff. - many people who are out for eight, and you only hear the bad stuff. i. and you only hear the bad stuff. i have and you only hear the bad stuff. have been listening, we have and you only hear the bad stuff.“ have been listening, we have had loads of people on the radio before, like timothy in oxford, hello, timothy! like timothy in oxford, hello, timoth ! my like timothy in oxford, hello, timothy!_ are - like timothy in oxford, hello, timothy!_ are you | like timothy in oxford, hello, l timothy!_ are you for like timothy in oxford, hello, - timothy!_ are you for it? timothy! hi, nicky? are you for it? no...! timothy! hi, nicky? are you for it? now! but — timothy! hi, nicky? are you for it? now! but in— timothy! hi, nicky? are you for it? no. . .! but in terms _ timothy! hi, nicky? are you for it? no. . .! but in terms of _ timothy! hi, nicky? are you for it? no. . .! but in terms of improving i no...! but in terms of improving traffic— no...! but in terms of improving traffic and — no...! but in terms of improving traffic and the environment, the problem — traffic and the environment, the problem is a lot of callers have said. _ problem is a lot of callers have said. the — problem is a lot of callers have said, the lady who lives in witney, it is great— said, the lady who lives in witney, it is great having ltns in oxford, but the _ it is great having ltns in oxford, but the problem is, you create low traffic— but the problem is, you create low traffic neighbourhoods, and by its nature _ traffic neighbourhoods, and by its nature you — traffic neighbourhoods, and by its nature you therefore create a very hi-h nature you therefore create a very high traffic— nature you therefore create a very high traffic area, and you will be surprised — high traffic area, and you will be surprised to hear that is where i live _ surprised to hear that is where i live very— surprised to hear that is where i live. very high traffic. i live on a main _ live. very high traffic. i live on a main road. _ live. very high traffic. i live on a main road, they have redesigned the layout— main road, they have redesigned the layout and _ main road, they have redesigned the layout and put 20 mph speed limits, and now— layout and put 20 mph speed limits, and now there are people rat running down _ and now there are people rat running down the _ and now there are people rat running down the slip road, dangerous driving — down the slip road, dangerous driving at _ down the slip road, dangerous driving at peak times. so that has avoided _ driving at peak times. so that has avoided rat — driving at peak times. so that has avoided rat runs in other places and created _ avoided rat runs in other places and created new— avoided rat runs in other places and created new ones. as everybody said,

at peak _ created new ones. as everybody said, at peak times, the created new ones. as everybody said, at peaktimes, the main created new ones. as everybody said, at peak times, the main roads are chock—a—block with traffic, engines idling. _ chock—a—block with traffic, engines idling, which is not good for the environment. buses are stuck in the queues. _ environment. buses are stuck in the queues, so — environment. buses are stuck in the queues, so what used to be a ten minute _ queues, so what used to be a ten minute journey on the bus into the city centre — minute journey on the bus into the city centre is now 25 minutes. it doesn't — city centre is now 25 minutes. it doesn't work. | city centre is now 25 minutes. it doesn't work.— city centre is now 25 minutes. it doesn't work. i think if the streets are safer. — doesn't work. i think if the streets are safer. if _ doesn't work. i think if the streets are safer, if there _ doesn't work. i think if the streets are safer, if there is _ doesn't work. i think if the streets are safer, if there is less - are safer, if there is less pollution... are safer, if there is less pollution. . ._ are safer, if there is less pollution... are safer, if there is less ollution... �* ., ., pollution... but there are new rat runs where _ pollution... but there are new rat runs where people _ pollution... but there are new rat runs where people are _ pollution... but there are new rat runs where people are travelling l pollution... but there are new ratl runs where people are travelling at 50 mph— runs where people are travelling at 50 mph through a 20 mph zone. that is the other— 50 mph through a 20 mph zone. trust is the other thing, 20 mph is the law, it is annoying that people are still speeding, law, it is annoying that people are stillspeeding, but law, it is annoying that people are still speeding, but you have a lot of people who get really angry about these 20 mph speed limits, and they are reducing accidents. but. these 20 mph speed limits, and they are reducing accidents.— are reducing accidents. but, sorry, ou have are reducing accidents. but, sorry, you have a — are reducing accidents. but, sorry, you have a 30 _ are reducing accidents. but, sorry, you have a 30 mph _ are reducing accidents. but, sorry, you have a 30 mph speed - are reducing accidents. but, sorry, you have a 30 mph speed limit - are reducing accidents. but, sorry, j you have a 30 mph speed limit and you have a 50 mph speed limit and there _ you have a 50 mph speed limit and there is— you have a 50 mph speed limit and there is no— you have a 50 mph speed limit and there is no police enforcement. you could _ there is no police enforcement. you could make — there is no police enforcement. you could make it five if you want to, there _ could make it five if you want to, there is — could make it five if you want to, there is no — could make it five if you want to, there is no enforcement, no police on the _ there is no enforcement, no police on the roads— there is no enforcement, no police on the roads or speed cameras. it is

the law, i on the roads or speed cameras. it is the law. i don't— on the roads or speed cameras. it 3 the law, i don't understand why people are happy to break the law, i don't understand that, it doesn't make any sense. i don't understand that, it doesn't make any sense.— don't understand that, it doesn't make any sense. i live in an area where peeple — make any sense. i live in an area where people are _ make any sense. i live in an area where people are continually - where people are continually breaking the law. i used to do a planning — breaking the law. i used to do a planning role, but the council have implemented these changes and major revisions, _ implemented these changes and major revisions, and it doesn't work, and if you _ revisions, and it doesn't work, and if you do— revisions, and it doesn't work, and if you do something that doesn't work. _ if you do something that doesn't work. you — if you do something that doesn't work, you have to look at it differently, don't you? are you sa in: it differently, don't you? are you saying it doesn't _ differently, don't you? are you saying it doesn't work - differently, don't you? are you saying it doesn't work for - differently, don't you? are you saying it doesn't work for you | differently, don't you? are you | saying it doesn't work for you or the whole street! i saying it doesn't work for you or the whole street!— saying it doesn't work for you or the whole street! i hardly ever use m car, the whole street! i hardly ever use my car. but _ the whole street! i hardly ever use my car. but if _ the whole street! i hardly ever use my car. but if you _ the whole street! i hardly ever use my car, but if you look _ the whole street! i hardly ever use my car, but if you look out - the whole street! i hardly ever use my car, but if you look out on - the whole street! i hardly ever use my car, but if you look out on the | my car, but if you look out on the main _ my car, but if you look out on the main roads— my car, but if you look out on the main roads of oxford at peak times, they are _ main roads of oxford at peak times, they are backed up, nothing is moving — they are backed up, nothing is moving i— they are backed up, nothing is movinu. ., ~' . ., moving. i work in the centre of oxford, moving. i work in the centre of oxford. use — moving. i work in the centre of oxford, use public— moving. i work in the centre of oxford, use public transport i moving. i work in the centre ofj oxford, use public transport to moving. i work in the centre of- oxford, use public transport to get oxford, use public transport to get oxford on a daily basis, and i work in the city centre, and to be honest, they have always been busy,... at}! honest, they have always been bus ,... , , ., ., busy,... of course they have always been busy--- _ busy,... of course they have always been busy--- i— busy,... of course they have always been busy... i wouldn't— busy,... of course they have always been busy... i wouldn't say - busy,... of course they have always been busy... i wouldn't say it - busy,... of course they have always been busy... i wouldn't say it has i been busy... i wouldn't say it has increased — been busy... i wouldn't say it has increased with _ been busy... i wouldn't say it has increased with the _ been busy... i wouldn't say it has increased with the ltns. - been busy... i wouldn't say it has increased with the ltns. i - been busy... i wouldn't say it has increased with the ltns. i would | increased with the ltns. i would also say that the traffic is ridiculous in the city centre, we have so many accidents, we have one

main roundabout which causes untold accidents, and i'm not sure... i totally agree... but less cars on the road in the city centre are going to... the road in the city centre are going to- - -— the road in the city centre are auoin to... �* ., ,, going to... but you cannot dissipate millions of cars, _ going to... but you cannot dissipate millions of cars, if _ going to... but you cannot dissipate millions of cars, if i'm _ going to... but you cannot dissipate millions of cars, if i'm going - going to... but you cannot dissipate millions of cars, if i'm going to - millions of cars, if i'm going to see my— millions of cars, if i'm going to see my mother in a care home, for example. — see my mother in a care home, for example. he — see my mother in a care home, for example, he would go a to be, but now i_ example, he would go a to be, but now i have — example, he would go a to be, but now i have to go to c, and the b is the roundabout which is totally backed — the roundabout which is totally backed up with traffic, that is not an improvement by any standards. but now an improvement by any standards. now there are an improvement by any standards. but now there are other means on getting up now there are other means on getting up the road, you could jump on a bus or use other means of transport. i or use other means of transport. i walked, i don't drive. you - or use other means of transport. i walked, i don't drive. you don't i walked, i don't drive. you don't have to use _ walked, i don't drive. you don't have to use a _ walked, i don't drive. you don't have to use a car— walked, i don't drive. you don't have to use a car to _ walked, i don't drive. you don't have to use a car to get - walked, i don't drive. you don't have to use a car to get up - walked, i don't drive. you don't l have to use a car to get up there. so i should sell my car and nobody needs— so i should sell my car and nobody needs a _ so i should sell my car and nobody needs a cow? | so i should sell my car and nobody needs a cow?— needs a cow? i didn't say nobody needs a cow? i didn't say nobody needs a cow? i didn't say nobody needs a car. _ needs a cow? i didn't say nobody needs a car, but _ needs a cow? i didn't say nobody needs a car, but quite _ needs a cow? i didn't say nobody needs a car, but quite a - needs a cow? i didn't say nobody needs a car, but quite a lot - needs a cow? i didn't say nobody needs a car, but quite a lot of. needs a car, but quite a lot of people have more than two, why do we need more than two? ok.

people have more than two, why do we need more than two?— need more than two? ok, let's stick with the one — need more than two? ok, let's stick with the one car _ need more than two? ok, let's stick with the one car owner _ need more than two? ok, let's stick with the one car owner who - need more than two? ok, let's stick with the one car owner who wants i need more than two? ok, let's stickj with the one car owner who wants to id with the one car owner who wants to go and _ with the one car owner who wants to go and see _ with the one car owner who wants to go and see his mother in a care home — go and see his mother in a care home. i go and see his mother in a care home. gk. iwalk go and see his mother in a care home. ok. i walk everywhere but home.“ i walk everywhere but occdsioiidlly _ home.“ i walk everywhere but occdsioiidlly ' _ home. i:’;.lwalk everywhere but occasionally i want to home. ii iwalk everywhere but occasionally i want to drive. but that is— occasionally i want to drive. but that is not— occasionally i want to drive. but that is not my point. we have created — that is not my point. we have created traffic at key points which is not _ created traffic at key points which is not good for the environment, it meansm — is not good for the environment, it meansm it — is not good for the environment, it meansm it is— is not good for the environment, it means... it is not always been there. — means... it is not always been there. i— means... it is not always been there, i told you, we live in a high traffic— there, i told you, we live in a high traffic area, — there, i told you, we live in a high traffic area, we have become a very hi-h traffic area, we have become a very high traffic— traffic area, we have become a very high traffic area, because it is all rooted _ high traffic area, because it is all rooted down this main road, and all the main _ rooted down this main road, and all the main roads in oxford are the same _ the main roads in oxford are the same. . ~' the main roads in oxford are the same. ., ~ ,, , . same. thank you both very much indeed! justin, _ same. thank you both very much indeed! justin, if— same. thank you both very much indeed! justin, if only _ same. thank you both very much indeed! justin, if only all - same. thank you both very much indeed! justin, if only all the - indeed! justin, if only all the arguments... that wasn't a confrontation, it was a conversation, all the communications about this between people were as civilised as that! how can we see this programme? you civilised as that! how can we see this programme?— civilised as that! how can we see this programme? you watch it on bbc one at eight — this programme? you watch it on bbc one at eight o'clock _ this programme? you watch it on bbc one at eight o'clock tonight _ this programme? you watch it on bbc one at eight o'clock tonight or - one at eight o'clock tonight or alternatively watch it on the iplayer right now! i}!(! alternatively watch it on the iplayer right now! ok! thank you very much _

iplayer right now! ok! thank you very much indeed _ iplayer right now! ok! thank you very much indeed for— iplayer right now! ok! thank you very much indeed for listening i iplayer right now! ok! thank you i very much indeed for listening and thank you very much for watching, and i'll see you tomorrow, and you'll hear me tomorrow, and you'll see me tomorrow. live from london, this is bbc news. russian opposition activist vladimir kara—murza is sentenced to 25 years in prison for treason and other offences linked to his criticism of the kremlin. fighting between rival armed factions in sudan intensifies, with nearly a hundred people killed and hundreds more injured this weekend. vigils are held for four people killed in a mass shooting at a 16th birthday party in the southern us state of alabama. elon musk�*s spacex gets the all—clear to launch its mammoth rocket starship as early as today.