good morning. welcome to the phone and this morning with some excellent topics i know you will want to get involved in. another day. another sport. another protest. this time on snooker�*s hallowed green baize... play stopped at the world championship when a protestor climbed on the table and covered it in orange powder. just stop oil — the climate change activists — have claimed responsbility: "new oil and gas will snooker us" they say. appropriately, they say that!

they want the government to immediately stop all new uk fossil fuel projects and sport institutions to help them do that. this the latest in a number of headline grabbing protests: blocking roads, defacing a memorial for captain sir tom moore, throwing orange soup at van gogh's sunflowers, tying themselves to the goalposts during premier league matches. all that and more to come. we are facing an existential threat. this nougat protest, is it a cue for a change? get in touch. —— the snuggle protest.

here is the news from dan brennan. thank you. good morning. energy firms have agreed a new code of practice, which will stop them forcibly installing prepayment meters in the homes of anyone over 85. the regulator, ofgem, brought in a temporary ban in february — after debt agencies working for british gas were found to be breaking into the properties of some vulnerable customers to fit them. official figures show wages rose by 6.6 per cent in the three months to february compared with the previous year. that's higher than most economists were expecting — but rising prices mean earnings are still falling in real terms. mps are calling on ministers to do much more to end what they call the "appalling" disparity in deaths during pregnancy and childbirth between black, asian and white women. the government says it's focusing on improving outcomes for all mothers. free—range eggs will return to supermarket shelves within days, after the government lifted an order to keep poultry inside to reduce the spread of avian influenza. there've been more than 330 cases of bird flu in the uk since october 2021.

good morning. here it is what happened at the crucible last night at the theatre. get happened at the crucible last night at the theatre.— knock him off! orange powder over the ureen knock him off! orange powder over the green baize. _ knock him off! orange powder over the green baize. the _ knock him off! orange powder over the green baize. the mess - knock him off! orange powder over the green baize. the mess was - the green baize. the mess was cleaned up but there was the mess we have made of the planet. i want your thoughts on this. described as a

fanatics, or is it hugely inappropriate, counter—productive? self—indulgent? puerile? snooker is way down the list of calming, spewing sports but havejust stop oil screwed up? give it a break, give us a rest but maybe some might argue they can take a slaughtering to bushing and do some protesting there where the real carbon emissions are happening. —— they can take a slow train to beijing. climate change is not a problem we can brush away, mass migration, mass famine, mass extinction, they say one day in the future when things are really dire, what a shame it was that the match between robert milkins and joe perry was disrupted.

the international governmental panel on climate change came out towards the end of march and they said what we do in the next seven years will have implications for the planet, or species, all species, thousands of years. mind you, the dennis taylor and steve turner —— dennis taylor and steve turner —— dennis taylor and steve turner —— dennis taylor and steve davis final will live in the memory for ever. a catastrophic news about the planet tends to go under the radar. we can speak to graham now from just stop oil. the world snooker champion shaun murphy alsojoins us. how world snooker champion shaun murphy also “oins us. ., ., world snooker champion shaun murphy also joins ve— world snooker champion shaun murphy also joins us— also joins us. how are you? i am well. also joins us. how are you? i am well- thank— also joins us. how are you? i am well. thank you. _ also joins us. how are you? i am well. thank you. what _ also joins us. how are you? i am well. thank you. what did - also joins us. how are you? i am well. thank you. what did jake l also joins us. how are you? i am - well. thank you. what did jake make of it? i have — well. thank you. what did jake make of it? i have never— well. thank you. what did jake make of it? i have never seen _ well. thank you. what did jake make of it? i have never seen anything - of it? i have never seen anything like it_ of it? i have never seen anything like it in— of it? i have never seen anything like it in all— of it? i have never seen anything like it in all my years coming to the crucible theatre. we have had all sorts_ the crucible theatre. we have had all sorts of— the crucible theatre. we have had all sorts of protests, we had protests _ all sorts of protests, we had protests then when fathers for justice — protests then when fathers for justice to— protests then when fathers for justice to themselves to the for the

crucible _ justice to themselves to the for the crucible it— justice to themselves to the for the crucible. it is one of the most watched — crucible. it is one of the most watched sporting events in the world and i watched sporting events in the world and lam _ watched sporting events in the world and i am assuming before we get into it that _ and i am assuming before we get into it that is _ and i am assuming before we get into it that is why— and i am assuming before we get into it that is why the snooker was targeted _ it that is why the snooker was targeted but i do not know whyjust stop 0it— targeted but i do not know whyjust stop oil has any problem with shigger— stop oil has any problem with snigger specifically but it is highly— snigger specifically but it is highly scrutinised, watched by miiiions— highly scrutinised, watched by millions around the world and if you were looking to get the message out there. _ were looking to get the message out there, there will be very few events happening — there, there will be very few events happening at the moment with the larger— happening at the moment with the larger footprint than snooker. tiers; larger footprint than snooker. very aood larger footprint than snooker. very good point. _ larger footprint than snooker. very good point. so _ larger footprint than snooker. - good point, so popular across the planet. if you want to make a point about the destruction of the planet it is pretty acute and astute thinking, isn't it? it is pretty acute and astute thinkin: , isn't it? ~ , , ., thinking, isn't it? absolutely, and as i sa i thinking, isn't it? absolutely, and as i say i am _ thinking, isn't it? absolutely, and as i say i am across _ thinking, isn't it? absolutely, and as i say i am across the _ thinking, isn't it? absolutely, and as i say i am across the social- thinking, isn't it? absolutely, and| as i say i am across the social says everyone _ as i say i am across the social says everyone is — as i say i am across the social says everyone is and you see the comments lyin- everyone is and you see the comments lying around, _ everyone is and you see the comments lying around, why are they doing it here? _ lying around, why are they doing it here? because we are currently the most _ here? because we are currently the most watched and scrutinised event happening anywhere in the world and this isn't—

happening anywhere in the world and this isn'tjust a uk happening anywhere in the world and this isn't just a uk thing, happening anywhere in the world and this isn'tjust a uk thing, the coverage _ this isn'tjust a uk thing, the coverage of the snigger goes internationally around the globe. as i internationally around the globe. as i say, _ internationally around the globe. as i say, i— internationally around the globe. as i say, i think if you were trying to make _ i say, i think if you were trying to make a _ i say, i think if you were trying to make a point, there would be very few sporting events you could disrupt — few sporting events you could disrupt that would garner yet more column— disrupt that would garner yet more column inches than the world championships, to my knowledge. when iwent— championships, to my knowledge. when lweht to _ championships, to my knowledge. when i went to bed last night and got up this morning it has gone everywhere. there _ this morning it has gone everywhere. there is— this morning it has gone everywhere. there is no— this morning it has gone everywhere. there is no bigger story at the moment _ there is no bigger story at the moment. ~ . . ., there is no bigger story at the moment. . ., ., ~ ., , moment. we are talking about it but should we? — moment. we are talking about it but should we? l— moment. we are talking about it but should we? i think _ moment. we are talking about it but should we? i think i _ moment. we are talking about it but should we? i think i probably - should we? i think i probably should. listen, _ should we? i think i probably should. listen, i— should we? i think i probably should. listen, i am- should we? i think i probably should. listen, i am an - should we? i think i probably. should. listen, i am an expert should we? i think i probably - should. listen, i am an expert on snuggle. — should. listen, i am an expert on snuggle. i— should. listen, i am an expert on snuggle, i am should. listen, i am an expert on snuggle, lam not should. listen, i am an expert on snuggle, i am not an expert on climate _ snuggle, i am not an expert on climate change. but when i attain in and watch _ climate change. but when i attain in and watch and listen to people who are they _ and watch and listen to people who are they say we are hurtling towards problems _ are they say we are hurtling towards problems. and some commentators would _ problems. and some commentators would even — problems. and some commentators would even suggest we have gone past the point _ would even suggest we have gone past the point of no return and as i say, i the point of no return and as i say, i am _ the point of no return and as i say, i am not _ the point of no return and as i say, l am not an— the point of no return and as i say, i am not an expert on that at all. but you —

i am not an expert on that at all. but you only have to watch one of the that _ but you only have to watch one of the that sir— but you only have to watch one of the that sir david attenborough does and he _ the that sir david attenborough does and he comes in at the end and tells us how— and he comes in at the end and tells us how much— and he comes in at the end and tells us how much trouble with your all in and what _ us how much trouble with your all in and what we — us how much trouble with your all in and what we need to do, these people don't know— and what we need to do, these people don't know what are talking about and they— don't know what are talking about and they tell us we need to do more so i and they tell us we need to do more so i am _ and they tell us we need to do more so i am thankful that no one was hurt _ so i am thankful that no one was hurt i_ so i am thankful that no one was hurt i am — so i am thankful that no one was hurt. i am thankful it is after all 'ust hurt. i am thankful it is after all just a _ hurt. i am thankful it is after all just a game of snooker and no one was injured — just a game of snooker and no one was injured. i think we are to be reminded — was injured. i think we are to be reminded more were very lucky to live for— reminded more were very lucky to live for live — reminded more were very lucky to live for live and we have the right to peaceful protest and live to fight _ to peaceful protest and live to fight another day. do to peaceful protest and live to fight another day.— to peaceful protest and live to fight another day. do you have a certain amount _ fight another day. do you have a certain amount of _ fight another day. do you have a certain amount of sympathy - fight another day. do you have a certain amount of sympathy forl fight another day. do you have a - certain amount of sympathy for them? i was doing a lot of reading around us this morning. we have this ipcc report in march. a final warning on the climate crisis, it was turned. as rising greenhouse gas emissions push us towards the brink of irrevocable damage so given that,

you have an element of sympathy for them? i you have an element of sympathy for them? ., , ., , ., them? i do, yeah. they are fighting from them as _ them? i do, yeah. they are fighting from them as l _ them? i do, yeah. they are fighting from them as i say, _ them? i do, yeah. they are fighting from them as i say, my _ them? i do, yeah. they are fighting| from them as i say, my perspective, i am from them as i say, my perspective, i am not _ from them as i say, my perspective, i am not an— from them as i say, my perspective, i am not an expert on the subtle but from _ i am not an expert on the subtle but from my— i am not an expert on the subtle but from my point view, they deliver quite _ from my point view, they deliver quite a _ from my point view, they deliver quite a stink message and i am baffled — quite a stink message and i am baffled that these things are not being _ baffled that these things are not being taken seriously by the powers that be _ being taken seriously by the powers that be around the world, why aren't we doing _ that be around the world, why aren't we doing more to stop using fossil fuels? _ we doing more to stop using fossil fuels? as — we doing more to stop using fossil fuels? as i — we doing more to stop using fossil fuels? as i say, i don't know enough about— fuels? as i say, i don't know enough about it _ fuels? as i say, i don't know enough about it but — fuels? as i say, i don't know enough about it but it always strikes me as weird _ about it but it always strikes me as weird wheh — about it but it always strikes me as weird when these groups have to resort _ weird when these groups have to resort to — weird when these groups have to resort to such tactics, why aren't governments around the world listening — governments around the world listening to experts on this field and doing what they can to make changes? — and doing what they can to make changes? it�*s and doing what they can to make chances? �*, ., , , and doing what they can to make chances? v ., , , ., changes? it's really interesting to hear our changes? it's really interesting to hear your perspective _ changes? it's really interesting to hear your perspective on - changes? it's really interesting to hear your perspective on this - changes? it's really interesting to hear your perspective on this and | changes? it's really interesting to | hear your perspective on this and i am going to get graham to speak to

you ina am going to get graham to speak to you in a moment to explain what they did on for the dead. at first, some breaking news, an update from police scotland, the snp treasurer colin beattie has been arrested in connection with the ongoing investigation into the funding and finances of the scottish national party. police scotland and then start and we will have more on this on the bbc news website and the app throughout the day and right here on bbc radio 5 live. graham from just stop oil. it is fascinating hearing what shaun murphy had to say, he has an element of understanding and sympathy as to what this is all about, what is at the heart of it and he appreciates the existential threat that we face. can you explain why you did this at that event? fin why you did this at that event? on the why you did this at that event? q? the go. my pleasure, thank you why you did this at that event? (m the go. my pleasure, thank you for having me on the programme. can i thank shaun murphy for being so

honest and open unsought supporter we are doing. this is what we need. you don't need me on the programme. i used to be a principal scientist at shell and i am a proud supporter now ofjust stop oil and i demand is so simple and common sense and yet our government is not implementing it. of the science says no new oil and gas and the government is not doing it and when they do, we., as that. doing it and when they do, we. , as that. ,, ., ~ , , ., that. shaun murphy, you are getting some plaudits _ that. shaun murphy, you are getting some plaudits from _ that. shaun murphy, you are getting some plaudits from just _ that. shaun murphy, you are getting some plaudits from just stop - that. shaun murphy, you are getting some plaudits from just stop oil, i some plaudits from just stop oil, who would have thought? i suppose it's lucky that _ who would have thought? i suppose it's lucky that l _ who would have thought? i suppose it's lucky that i am _ who would have thought? i suppose it's lucky that i am here, _ who would have thought? i suppose it's lucky that i am here, i— who would have thought? i suppose it's lucky that i am here, i am - who would have thought? i suppose it's lucky that i am here, i am not. it's lucky that i am here, i am not sure _ it's lucky that i am here, i am not sure the — it's lucky that i am here, i am not sure the tables that are at the crucible — sure the tables that are at the crucible theatre it would have been so generous we were working late into the _ so generous we were working late into the night and this morning recovering the table and both tables to keep _ recovering the table and both tables to keep parity for the competitors in the _ to keep parity for the competitors in the tournament. and had i been one of— in the tournament. and had i been one of the — in the tournament. and had i been one of the players in the arena,

when _ one of the players in the arena, when somebodyjumped over the when somebody jumped over the sponsorship when somebodyjumped over the sponsorship building and mounted the table. _ sponsorship building and mounted the table. i_ sponsorship building and mounted the table, i might not have been so placid _ table, i might not have been so placid either but i think you have to look— placid either but i think you have to look at— placid either but i think you have to look at what the message actually is and _ to look at what the message actually is and as— to look at what the message actually is and as i_ to look at what the message actually is and as i say, from eight snooker point _ is and as i say, from eight snooker point of— is and as i say, from eight snooker point of view, i am not sure that there _ point of view, i am not sure that there is— point of view, i am not sure that there is any— point of view, i am not sure that there is any actual disagreement or anything _ there is any actual disagreement or anything with snigger. i am sure that you — anything with snigger. i am sure that you are using this as a platform. _ that you are using this as a platform, is that correct? i think that is fair. _ platform, is that correct? i think that is fair, yes. _ platform, is that correct? i think that is fair, yes. what _ platform, is that correct? i think that is fair, yes. what we - platform, is that correct? i think that is fair, yes. what we have l platform, is that correct? i think| that is fair, yes. what we have to recognise is that there is no known future. the best we can do is to minimise the disruption. and what we are seeing at the moment is more oil and gas, and that means more temperature rise and that means people will die, we are currently heading notjust to the climate

crisis but a catastrophe and there will we are going at the moment, we will we are going at the moment, we will see entire nations annihilated. that is a genocide so our government is complicit along with other governments around the world and seen that happen. we governments around the world and seen that happen.— governments around the world and seen that happen. we must be careful ofthe seen that happen. we must be careful of the language- _ seen that happen. we must be careful of the language- a _ seen that happen. we must be careful of the language. a lot _ seen that happen. we must be careful of the language. a lot of _ seen that happen. we must be careful of the language. a lot of people - of the language. a lot of people will have sympathy for you, of course and i know that from doing phone—ins and looking at the reaction but many will not but this use of the writer genocide, you must do that with great caution, that is the deliberate killing of a large number of people from a specific group or ethnic nation, there is no deliberation in this. no targeting of a group of people because of their ethnicity?— of a group of people because of their ethnicity? what what you call that? we know _ their ethnicity? what what you call that? we know we _ their ethnicity? what what you call that? we know we are _ their ethnicity? what what you call that? we know we are currently i that? we know we are currently heading for, i can give you all the numbers, heading for a position where we will see large parts of the world not able to be left in,

particularly in the global south and that will mean hundreds of million if not billions of people will have no thought to live so large numbers of those people will die and large numbers of those people will try and leave. it numbers of those people will try and leave. , , .,, , , numbers of those people will try and leave. , , , , leave. it is instability, but it is not deliberately _ leave. it is instability, but it is not deliberately targeting - leave. it is instability, but it is not deliberately targeting an l leave. it is instability, but it is- not deliberately targeting an ethnic group to write them from the planet. yes, it is foolish and stupid and it is self—destructive and it is driven by greed, you can argue all of those things but let's not get stuck on the word genocide. let me bring in mark and david. good morning. mark, what do you want to say to graham? hello. i hope you are well. my point earlier— hello. i hope you are well. my point earlier was— hello. i hope you are well. my point earlier was making _ hello. i hope you are well. my point earlier was making using _ hello. i hope you are well. my point earlier was making using language i earlier was making using language about— earlier was making using language about the — earlier was making using language about the planet, _ earlier was making using language about the planet, but _ earlier was making using language about the planet, but quickly, - earlier was making using language about the planet, but quickly, it. earlier was making using language about the planet, but quickly, it is| about the planet, but quickly, it is not about— about the planet, but quickly, it is not about the _ about the planet, but quickly, it is not about the planet, _ about the planet, but quickly, it is not about the planet, the - about the planet, but quickly, it is not about the planet, the planet l about the planet, but quickly, it is. not about the planet, the planet was here before — not about the planet, the planet was here before we —

not about the planet, the planet was here before we were _ not about the planet, the planet was here before we were under- not about the planet, the planet was here before we were under it - not about the planet, the planet was here before we were under it will - not about the planet, the planet was here before we were under it will be | here before we were under it will be here before we were under it will be here we _ here before we were under it will be here we are — here before we were under it will be here we are it— here before we were under it will be here we are. it is— here before we were under it will be here we are. it is about _ here before we were under it will be here we are. it is about humankind. | here we are. it is about humankind. if here we are. it is about humankind. if you _ here we are. it is about humankind. if you look— here we are. it is about humankind. if you look at — here we are. it is about humankind. if you look at the _ here we are. it is about humankind. if you look at the genesis _ here we are. it is about humankind. if you look at the genesis of- here we are. it is about humankind. if you look at the genesis of the - if you look at the genesis of the ecology— if you look at the genesis of the ecology movement, _ if you look at the genesis of the ecology movement, the - if you look at the genesis of the ecology movement, the green i if you look at the genesis of the - ecology movement, the green party and i ecology movement, the green party and l presume — ecology movement, the green party and l presume you _ ecology movement, the green party and i presume you guys _ ecology movement, the green party and i presume you guys came - ecology movement, the green party and i presume you guys came out. ecology movement, the green party and i presume you guys came out of that environment, _ and i presume you guys came out of that environment, set _ and i presume you guys came out of that environment, set up— and i presume you guys came out of that environment, set up by- that environment, set up by right-wing _ that environment, set up by right—wing think— that environment, set up by right—wing think tanks - that environment, set up by right—wing think tanks in - that environment, set up by| right—wing think tanks in the that environment, set up by- right—wing think tanks in the early 70s about— right—wing think tanks in the early 70s about culling _ right—wing think tanks in the early 70s about culling humanity - right—wing think tanks in the early 70s about culling humanity so - right—wing think tanks in the early 70s about culling humanity so if . right—wing think tanks in the early. 70s about culling humanity so if we -et 70s about culling humanity so if we get to _ 70s about culling humanity so if we get to the _ 70s about culling humanity so if we get to the point, _ 70s about culling humanity so if we get to the point, you _ 70s about culling humanity so if we get to the point, you apocalyptic. get to the point, you apocalyptic terms~ _ get to the point, you apocalyptic terms. painting _ get to the point, you apocalyptic terms. painting this— get to the point, you apocalyptic terms. painting this horrific- terms. painting this horrific picture _ terms. painting this horrific picture which _ terms. painting this horrific picture which never- terms. painting this horrific picture which never seemsl terms. painting this horrific. picture which never seems to terms. painting this horrific- picture which never seems to turn up, picture which never seems to turn up. you _ picture which never seems to turn up. you basicallvm _ picture which never seems to turn up, you basically... the _ picture which never seems to turn up, you basically... the planet. picture which never seems to turni up, you basically... the planet has done _ up, you basically... the planet has done its _ up, you basically... the planet has done itsjob~ — up, you basically... the planet has done itsjob. humans— up, you basically... the planet has done itsjob. humans have - up, you basically... the planet has. done itsjob. humans have migrated for climate _ done itsjob. humans have migrated for climate change _ done itsjob. humans have migrated for climate change for— done itsjob. humans have migrated for climate change for millennia, - for climate change for millennia, nothing — for climate change for millennia, nothing changes. _ for climate change for millennia, nothing changes.— for climate change for millennia, nothing changes. what do you mean this horrific picture _ nothing changes. what do you mean this horrific picture that _ nothing changes. what do you mean this horrific picture that never- this horrific picture that never seems to turn up? have you red the ipcc report, it is green? i dub seems to turn up? have you red the ipcc report, it is green?— ipcc report, it is green? i dub a catastrophe _ ipcc report, it is green? i dub a catastrophe twice _ ipcc report, it is green? i dub a catastrophe twice in _ ipcc report, it is green? i dub a catastrophe twice in this - ipcc report, it is green? i dub a catastrophe twice in this way, l ipcc report, it is green? i dub a catastrophe twice in this way, i | catastrophe twice in this way, i have _ catastrophe twice in this way, i have not— catastrophe twice in this way, i have not red _ catastrophe twice in this way, i have not red the _ catastrophe twice in this way, i have not red the report - catastrophe twice in this way, i have not red the report but - catastrophe twice in this way, i have not red the report but i l catastrophe twice in this way, i. have not red the report but i am getting — have not red the report but i am getting fed _ have not red the report but i am getting fed up _ have not red the report but i am getting fed up with _

have not red the report but i am getting fed up with statistics, i have not red the report but i am . getting fed up with statistics, they are there — getting fed up with statistics, they are there for — getting fed up with statistics, they are there for support. _ getting fed up with statistics, they are there for support. no, - getting fed up with statistics, they are there for support.— are there for support. no, the reality of— are there for support. no, the reality of climate _ are there for support. no, the reality of climate change... i are there for support. no, the - reality of climate change... good, i am glad you are not debating it. it is indisputable that it is happening. what do you think about the protests? i happening. what do you think about the protests?— the protests? i think they are misguided — the protests? i think they are misguided and _ the protests? i think they are misguided and i _ the protests? i think they are misguided and i do _ the protests? i think they are misguided and i do not - the protests? i think they are misguided and i do not think| the protests? i think they are - misguided and i do not think they will make — misguided and i do not think they will make the _ misguided and i do not think they will make the point _ misguided and i do not think they will make the point that - misguided and i do not think they will make the point that people . misguided and i do not think they. will make the point that people want them to— will make the point that people want them to make — will make the point that people want them to make i_ will make the point that people want them to make. i think— will make the point that people want them to make. i think a _ will make the point that people want them to make. i think a lot- will make the point that people want them to make. i think a lot of- them to make. i think a lot of people — them to make. i think a lot of people switch— them to make. i think a lot of people switch off _ them to make. i think a lot of people switch off when - them to make. i think a lot of people switch off when they. them to make. i think a lot of. people switch off when they see them to make. i think a lot of- people switch off when they see it, people _ people switch off when they see it, people are — people switch off when they see it, people are fed _ people switch off when they see it, people are fed up— people switch off when they see it, people are fed up being _ people switch off when they see it, people are fed up being lectured . people switch off when they see it, i people are fed up being lectured and i say people are fed up being lectured and i say this— people are fed up being lectured and lsav this again. _ people are fed up being lectured and i say this again, when _ people are fed up being lectured and i say this again, when we _ people are fed up being lectured and i say this again, when we turned - i say this again, when we turned round _ i say this again, when we turned round to— i say this again, when we turned round to the _ i say this again, when we turned round to the average _ i say this again, when we turned round to the average joe - i say this again, when we turned round to the average joe and - round to the average joe and josephine _ round to the average joe and josephine in _ round to the average joe and josephine in the _ round to the average joe and josephine in the street - round to the average joe and josephine in the street and l round to the average joe and l josephine in the street and say round to the average joe and - josephine in the street and say that many— josephine in the street and say that many big _ josephine in the street and say that many big tip— josephine in the street and say that many big tip to _ josephine in the street and say that many big tip to a _ josephine in the street and say that many big tip to a european - josephine in the street and say that many big tip to a european city, - josephine in the street and say that| many big tip to a european city, you can do— many big tip to a european city, you can do that — many big tip to a european city, you can do that once _ many big tip to a european city, you can do that once every— many big tip to a european city, you can do that once every five - many big tip to a european city, you can do that once every five years. i can do that once every five years. we never— can do that once every five years. we never do _ can do that once every five years. we never do that _ can do that once every five years. we never do that because - can do that once every five years. we never do that because it- can do that once every five years. i we never do that because it would smash— we never do that because it would smash the — we never do that because it would smash the society _ we never do that because it would smash the society apart. - we never do that because it would smash the society apart. we - we never do that because it would| smash the society apart. we never castigate _ smash the society apart. we never castigate premiership— smash the society apart. we never castigate premiership teams - smash the society apart. we never castigate premiership teams for. castigate premiership teams for flying _ castigate premiership teams for flying from _ castigate premiership teams for flying from london _ castigate premiership teams for flying from london up _ castigate premiership teams for flying from london up to - castigate premiership teams for. flying from london up to newcastle and flying _ flying from london up to newcastle and flying back, _ flying from london up to newcastle and flying back, we _ flying from london up to newcastle and flying back, we never... - flying from london up to newcastle and flying back, we never... ililie-

flying from london up to newcastle and flying back, we never... we had and flying back, we never... we had a re ort and flying back, we never... we had a report on — and flying back, we never... we had a report on it _ and flying back, we never... we had a report on it recently. _ and flying back, we never... we had a report on it recently. absolutely. i a report on it recently. absolutely. just one more _ a report on it recently. absolutely. just one more point. _ a report on it recently. absolutely. just one more point. about - a report on it recently. absolutely. just one more point. about two . a report on it recently. absolutely. - just one more point. about two weeks a-o just one more point. about two weeks ago rachel— just one more point. about two weeks ago rachel burdon _ just one more point. about two weeks ago rachel burdon was _ just one more point. about two weeks ago rachel burdon was called - just one more point. about two weeks ago rachel burdon was called out - ago rachel burdon was called out about— ago rachel burdon was called out about equal— ago rachel burdon was called out about equal challenges _ ago rachel burdon was called out about equal challenges on - ago rachel burdon was called out about equal challenges on the - ago rachel burdon was called out i about equal challenges on the next thin- about equal challenges on the next thing there — about equal challenges on the next thing there was _ about equal challenges on the next thing there was a _ about equal challenges on the next thing there was a trailer— about equal challenges on the next thing there was a trailer for- thing there was a trailer for formula _ thing there was a trailer for formula l~ _ thing there was a trailer for formula 1. it _ thing there was a trailer for formula 1. it is _ thing there was a trailer for formula 1. it is interlinked. j thing there was a trailer forl formula 1. it is interlinked. i thing there was a trailer for- formula 1. it is interlinked. i will be serious — formula 1. it is interlinked. i will be serious about _ formula 1. it is interlinked. i will be serious about it. _ formula 1. it is interlinked. i will be serious about it. talking - formula 1. it is interlinked. i will| be serious about it. talking cack. let's _ be serious about it. talking cack. let's been — be serious about it. talking cack. let's been in _ be serious about it. talking cack. let's been in david _ be serious about it. talking cack. let's been in david in _ be serious about it. talking cack. let's been in david in canberra. i let's been in david in canberra. sorry about the rant! have a rant anytime! sorry about the rant! have a rant an ime! ., ., ., ., ., anytime! how do i follow that? i manate anytime! how do i follow that? i manage singers _ anytime! how do i follow that? i manage singers and _ anytime! how do i follow that? i manage singers and we - anytime! how do i follow that? i j manage singers and we organise events~ — manage singers and we organise events. i'm the problem that we are having _ events. i'm the problem that we are having is— events. i'm the problem that we are having is we — events. i'm the problem that we are having is we cannot now get insurance _ having is we cannot now get insurance unless we have full security— insurance unless we have full security at events. and the problem

comes— security at events. and the problem comes because obviously when i started — comes because obviously when i started doing this, ten or 15 years ago. _ started doing this, ten or 15 years ago. all— started doing this, ten or 15 years ago. all we — started doing this, ten or 15 years ago, all we had to worry about was the venue — ago, all we had to worry about was the venue and selling tickets. all that happens when you get this type of disruptive protest is that the prices — of disruptive protest is that the prices have to go up because you've -ot prices have to go up because you've got to— prices have to go up because you've got to keep — prices have to go up because you've got to keep increasing the security. that you _ got to keep increasing the security. that you have to have at the events. i that you have to have at the events. i can _ that you have to have at the events. i can see _ that you have to have at the events. i can see it _ that you have to have at the events. i can see it in— that you have to have at the events. i can see it in five years' time that— i can see it in five years' time that we — i can see it in five years' time that we will have airport style screening as people go into theatres, is that what we want as a nation? _ theatres, is that what we want as a nation? |_ theatres, is that what we want as a nation? ., �* ,, ., , ., ., , nation? i don't know. graham, is that what we _ nation? i don't know. graham, is that what we need? _ nation? i don't know. graham, is that what we need? it _ nation? i don't know. graham, is that what we need? it is - nation? i don't know. graham, is that what we need? it is not - nation? i don't know. graham, is. that what we need? it is not correct to sa all that what we need? it is not correct to say all that _ that what we need? it is not correct to say all that happens _ that what we need? it is not correct to say all that happens is _ that what we need? it is not correct to say all that happens is that - to say all that happens is that prices go up. all that happens as we increase the awareness of the climate crisis, that's absolutely, all that happens, let me make my point, please, all that happens is that all the political parties apart from the conservative party

recognise the need to have no new oil and gas projects, that's all that happens. the only problem is the current government and we must do it now, time is running out, they are not listening and that is why we engage in disruptive actions. what does listening mean? they need to make the changes, they know what the science says that they are not listening to it. if they were listening... listening to it. if they were listening. . ._ listening to it. if they were listenint... ., . ., ., listening... can i come in? what do ou sa listening... can i come in? what do you say to — listening... can i come in? what do you say to people — listening... can i come in? what do you say to people who _ listening... can i come in? what do you say to people who are - listening... can i come in? what do you say to people who are going . you say to people who are going about _ you say to people who are going about the — you say to people who are going about the legal, lawful activities like going to an event or a concert or whatever— like going to an event or a concert or whatever that you are disrupting? if an or whatever that you are disrupting? if an event _ or whatever that you are disrupting? if an event was illegal then it is different— if an event was illegal then it is different but what you are actually doing _ different but what you are actually doing is _ different but what you are actually doing is turning everybody against you. doing is turning everybody against ou. . , doing is turning everybody against ou. ., , ., you. that is absolutely not true. the majority _ you. that is absolutely not true. the majority of _ you. that is absolutely not true. the majority of people - you. that is absolutely not true.

the majority of people in - you. that is absolutely not true. the majority of people in this i the majority of people in this country support much more rigorous action on climate change and the majority actually support our key demand, even political parties. what demand, even political parties. what ou are demand, even political parties. what you are trying _ demand, even political parties. what you are trying to _ demand, even political parties. what you are trying to achieve, they do not support— you are trying to achieve, they do not support the methods. it is really— not support the methods. it is really on — not support the methods. it is really on for the public. i not support the methods. it is really on for the public.- not support the methods. it is really on for the public. i am glad ou really on for the public. i am glad you mentioned _ really on for the public. i am glad you mentioned that _ really on for the public. i am glad you mentioned that because - really on for the public. i am glad you mentioned that because we i really on for the public. i am glad - you mentioned that because we would rather have a discussion about the issues and not about the methods. but we are not having that discussion, are we? ii but we are not having that discussion, are we?- but we are not having that discussion, are we? if you are disruptive _ discussion, are we? if you are disruptive events, _ discussion, are we? if you are disruptive events, you - discussion, are we? if you are disruptive events, you are - discussion, are we? if you are disruptive events, you are not discussion, are we? if you are - disruptive events, you are not going to get— disruptive events, you are not going to get the _ disruptive events, you are not going to get the message across because people _ to get the message across because people just switch off. that to get the message across because people just switch off.— people just switch off. that is what ha ens. i people just switch off. that is what happens- i have — people just switch off. that is what happens. i have spent _ people just switch off. that is what happens. i have spent a _ people just switch off. that is what happens. i have spent a long - people just switch off. that is what happens. i have spent a long time| people just switch off. that is what i happens. i have spent a long time in this area and i have seen over the last 30 years, almost no improvement, in fact it has got much worse. all those quiet private communications, all that voting has

made no difference, we now have no option other than nonviolent civil resistance. 50 option other than nonviolent civil resistance-— option other than nonviolent civil resistance. ., ., ., ., resistance. so you are going to do much more _ resistance. so you are going to do much more of _ resistance. so you are going to do much more of this _ resistance. so you are going to do much more of this and _ resistance. so you are going to do much more of this and many - resistance. so you are going to do| much more of this and many more events and venues? we have onlyjust begun? governments are not going to suddenly change their mind and think along the lines that you are thinking. graham, tell us the truth, this will be for a more commonplace, isn't it? fit this will be for a more commonplace, isn't it? .., , , this will be for a more commonplace, isn't it?_ snooker - isn't it? of course it is. snooker isn't it? of course it is. snooker is a soft target, _ isn't it? of course it is. snooker is a soft target, there _ isn't it? of course it is. snooker is a soft target, there isn't - isn't it? of course it is. snooker is a soft target, there isn't a - is a soft target, there isn't a security, you can walk around, rub shoulders withjimmy security, you can walk around, rub shoulders with jimmy white security, you can walk around, rub shoulders withjimmy white at security, you can walk around, rub shoulders with jimmy white at these events, something wonderful about that. but there will be more sporting events that you are targeting, aren't there? {lit sporting events that you are targeting, aren't there? of course. wait a minute. _ targeting, aren't there? of course. wait a minute, everyone. - targeting, aren't there? of course. wait a minute, everyone. shaun i waita minute, everyone. shaun murphy, i will be right with you,

alan. ., , alan. putting on it might snooker heart for a _ alan. putting on it might snooker heart for a moment, _ alan. putting on it might snooker heart for a moment, it _ alan. putting on it might snooker heart for a moment, it really i heart for a moment, it really interesting listening to all of that but from — interesting listening to all of that but from neat snooker point of view is absolutely true. the sport is a soft target— is absolutely true. the sport is a soft target and i see it as an inevitability, i would soft target and i see it as an inevitability, iwould hate soft target and i see it as an inevitability, i would hate for the relationship between the fans who come _ relationship between the fans who come to— relationship between the fans who come to the events around the world and the _ come to the events around the world and the sport itself changing that little bit — and the sport itself changing that little bit because i have been saying — little bit because i have been saying for a long time that our security— saying for a long time that our security protocols and access is much _ security protocols and access is much to — security protocols and access is much to make. and i would be very surprised _ much to make. and i would be very surprised if— much to make. and i would be very surprised if the protocol that were in place _ surprised if the protocol that were in place at — surprised if the protocol that were in place at the crucible yesterday are in _ in place at the crucible yesterday are in place today. one of the lovely — are in place today. one of the lovely things about the crucible theatre — lovely things about the crucible theatre is they say the crowd on the front row _ theatre is they say the crowd on the front row can literally reach out and touch — front row can literally reach out and touch the players or the table in play _ and touch the players or the table in play. you — and touch the players or the table in play. you know, yesterday we saw it enacted _ in play. you know, yesterday we saw it enacted in— in play. you know, yesterday we saw it enacted in real life and of

course, _ it enacted in real life and of course, just stop 0il have got their campaign _ course, just stop 0il have got their campaign and the reasons behind it. other— campaign and the reasons behind it. other people and other organisations or not. _ 0ther people and other organisations or not. i_ other people and other organisations or not. i use — other people and other organisations or not, i use the word peacefully protesting — or not, i use the word peacefully protesting tentatively because you know you — protesting tentatively because you know you could argue that the protest — know you could argue that the protest yesterday was not that peaceful at all but i would hate to see, although i say it is inevitable, the relationship between the crowd _ inevitable, the relationship between the crowd who come to watch snooker and enjoy— the crowd who come to watch snooker and enjoy it _ the crowd who come to watch snooker and enjoy it and their relationship with the _ and enjoy it and their relationship with the game and access, being so close _ with the game and access, being so close to _ with the game and access, being so close to the — with the game and access, being so close to the action, will inevitably change _ close to the action, will inevitably change and i think that is a shame. it is important i make my position clear~ _ it is important i make my position clear i_ it is important i make my position clear~ i am — it is important i make my position clear. lam not it is important i make my position clear. i am not here waging war against — clear. i am not here waging war againstjust stop 0il, not clear. i am not here waging war against just stop 0il, not at all. but i _ against just stop 0il, not at all. but i do — against just stop 0il, not at all. but i do wish it hadn't happened at the snooker because ultimately, you are not _ the snooker because ultimately, you are not for— the snooker because ultimately, you are not... ., , ., ., , , , are not... for short it happen? they have to make _ are not... for short it happen? they have to make a _ are not... for short it happen? they have to make a nice, _ are not... for short it happen? they have to make a nice, get _ are not... for short it happen? they

have to make a nice, get attention, | have to make a nice, get attention, get us thinking. loath? have to make a nice, get attention, get us thinking-— get us thinking. why should it ha--en? get us thinking. why should it happen? l _ get us thinking. why should it happen? i completely - get us thinking. why should it happen? i completely get i get us thinking. why should it | happen? i completely get that get us thinking. why should it i happen? i completely get that but get us thinking. why should it - happen? i completely get that but my question— happen? i completely get that but my question to you graham, and i do not understand _ question to you graham, and i do not understand it — question to you graham, and i do not understand it about these issues, you said — understand it about these issues, you said you had a background in science _ you said you had a background in science and — you said you had a background in science and you were in that way for a long _ science and you were in that way for a long time, — science and you were in that way for a long time, and you speak passionately about your views and opinions _ passionately about your views and opinions which i am sure i backed up by research — opinions which i am sure i backed up by research but doesn't the government and governments around the world, _ government and governments around the world, don't they have access to advice _ the world, don't they have access to advice as— the world, don't they have access to advice as well as? are we to assume the advice _ advice as well as? are we to assume the advice they are receiving is 'ust the advice they are receiving is just wrong or are they not listening? it just wrong or are they not listening?— just wrong or are they not listenin: ? , , , , , listening? it is very simple, they are not listening. _ listening? it is very simple, they are not listening. wouldn't- listening? it is very simple, they are not listening. wouldn't it i listening? it is very simple, they are not listening. wouldn't it be | are not listening. wouldn't it be great if we could live in a world where everything stays the same but we are not. what we are seeing is the breakdown of our weather, we will seek the breakdown of food supplies, mass migration, conflict, all of this is coming to us and i am not so much passionate but rather petrified and that is why we do the

things we do because we are not seen the change that is going to give a livable world for everyone. matt norton. livable world for everyone. matt norton- so _ livable world for everyone. matt norton. so interesting - livable world for everyone. matt norton. so interesting hearing shaun murphy, your voyage of discovery. so there is in quarantine. good morning to you and the other callers waiting for us. are you passionate or petrified? i for us. are you passionate or petrified?— for us. are you passionate or petrified? for us. are you passionate or etrified? ., ., ., , ., _ petrified? i am going to start by sa int petrified? i am going to start by sa in: i petrified? i am going to start by saying i was _ petrified? i am going to start by saying i was listening _ petrified? i am going to start by saying i was listening to - petrified? i am going to start by saying i was listening to a i petrified? i am going to start by saying i was listening to a song| petrified? i am going to start by i saying i was listening to a song by aurora and in that song, there is two sentences, we cannot eat money and we cannot eat money, from the last tear is falling and the reverse or poisoned, we eat money. and i get

absolutely terrified now, i sit here and i look at all the different effects of climate change. and floods where there is normally no rain at all, drought where there is normally rain. all the plastic being found at the bottom of the ocean. what has snooker got to do with this? ~ ., , ., , what has snooker got to do with this? . ., , ., , ,, what has snooker got to do with this? ~ ., , ., , ,, , what has snooker got to do with this? ., , ., , ,, , .,~ , this? when a protest like this takes lace, like this? when a protest like this takes place, like somebody _ this? when a protest like this takes place, like somebody said - this? when a protest like this takes place, like somebody said this i place, like somebody said this morning, it goes global. and the action... . ., morning, it goes global. and the action... w' , morning, it goes global. and the action... w , , morning, it goes global. and the action... , , , , action... kick but it is disrupting the pleasure _ action. .. kick but it is disrupting the pleasure of— action... kick but it is disrupting the pleasure of the _ action... kick but it is disrupting the pleasure of the people i action... kick but it is disrupting the pleasure of the people whol action... kick but it is disrupting i the pleasure of the people who go for a wonderful bit of sporting

escapism at the crucible theatre. it is a fantastic venue and snooker is truly sporting theatre and there will be many people in the venue for think like you about the existential threat to the planet and absolutely agree with you but then that happened. agree with you but then that happened-— agree with you but then that hauened. , , ., ., , ., happened. yes, but how many of those eo - le happened. yes, but how many of those --eole are happened. yes, but how many of those people are actually _ happened. yes, but how many of those people are actually sitting _ happened. yes, but how many of those people are actually sitting up _ happened. yes, but how many of those people are actually sitting up and i people are actually sitting up and taking notice because before these protests started, not many people take any notice. i am not saying that protest was right, i am not saying that protest was wrong, normally somebody mentions snooker to me, i am not interested. but then i heard the word protest. it to me, i am not interested. but then i heard the word protest.— i heard the word protest. it has got us talkin: i heard the word protest. it has got us talking about _ i heard the word protest. it has got us talking about it, _ i heard the word protest. it has got

us talking about it, jenny _ i heard the word protest. it has got us talking about it, jenny in - us talking about it, jenny in sheffield, you were there. what was it like? it sheffield, you were there. what was it like? ., , sheffield, you were there. what was it like? .,, ., , sheffield, you were there. what was itlike? ., , , it like? it was really shocking, in a lot of panic _ it like? it was really shocking, in a lot of panic and _ it like? it was really shocking, in a lot of panic and anger. - it like? it was really shocking, in a lot of panic and anger. the i it like? it was really shocking, in| a lot of panic and anger. the fans have _ a lot of panic and anger. the fans have paid — a lot of panic and anger. the fans have paid to— a lot of panic and anger. the fans have paid to watch the match, the players _ have paid to watch the match, the players put — have paid to watch the match, the players put in an awful lot of preparation, the table fitters work really _ preparation, the table fitters work really hard. i understand you need to make _ really hard. i understand you need to make a — really hard. i understand you need to make a point and make disruption but i to make a point and make disruption but i am _ to make a point and make disruption but i am not — to make a point and make disruption but i am not sure it did that. it will not — but i am not sure it did that. it will not get people to care more about— will not get people to care more about the — will not get people to care more about the environment. we have now -ot about the environment. we have now got an— about the environment. we have now got an extra — about the environment. we have now got an extra session, they have got to wash _ got an extra session, they have got to wash the — got an extra session, they have got to wash the cloth, the lights and electricity— to wash the cloth, the lights and electricity are on, people travelling for the extra session so we are _ travelling for the extra session so we are using more electricity and a-s we are using more electricity and gas because of what happened rather than less _ gas because of what happened rather than less. �* �* ., . ,, , ., ., than less. allen in blackpool. hello, than less. allen in blackpool. hello. what _ than less. allen in blackpool. hello, what is _ than less. allen in blackpool. hello, what is your _ than less. allen in blackpool. hello, what is your reaction, | than less. allen in blackpool. i hello, what is your reaction, given the threat of mass famine, mass

extinction?— the threat of mass famine, mass extinction? the people playing in the world championship, - extinction? the people playing in the world championship, they i extinction? the people playing in i the world championship, they have worked _ the world championship, they have worked really — the world championship, they have worked really hard, _ the world championship, they have worked really hard, going _ the world championship, they have worked really hard, going through i worked really hard, going through qualifying — worked really hard, going through qualifying matches, _ worked really hard, going through qualifying matches, they- worked really hard, going through qualifying matches, they have i worked really hard, going through qualifying matches, they have to. qualifying matches, they have to spend _ qualifying matches, they have to spend a — qualifying matches, they have to spend a lot — qualifying matches, they have to spend a lot of— qualifying matches, they have to spend a lot of money, _ qualifying matches, they have to spend a lot of money, obviouslyl spend a lot of money, obviously ronnie — spend a lot of money, obviously ronnie 0'sullivan_ spend a lot of money, obviously ronnie 0'sullivan does - spend a lot of money, obviously ronnie 0'sullivan does not- spend a lot of money, obviously ronnie 0'sullivan does not have spend a lot of money, obviously i ronnie 0'sullivan does not have to do that, _ ronnie 0'sullivan does not have to do that, shaun— ronnie 0'sullivan does not have to do that, shaun murphy, _ ronnie 0'sullivan does not have to do that, shaun murphy, they- ronnie 0'sullivan does not have to do that, shaun murphy, they get l do that, shaun murphy, they get through— do that, shaun murphy, they get through but— do that, shaun murphy, they get through but you _ do that, shaun murphy, they get through but you get _ do that, shaun murphy, they get through but you get through i do that, shaun murphy, they get through but you get through the| do that, shaun murphy, they get i through but you get through the top ten, then— through but you get through the top ten, then guys— through but you get through the top ten, then guys have _ through but you get through the top ten, then guys have to— through but you get through the top ten, then guys have to spend - through but you get through the top ten, then guys have to spend a i through but you get through the top ten, then guys have to spend a lot. ten, then guys have to spend a lot of money— ten, then guys have to spend a lot of money going _ ten, then guys have to spend a lot of money going for— ten, then guys have to spend a lot of money going for every- ten, then guys have to spend a lot of money going for every game, i ten, then guys have to spend a lot- of money going for every game, every tour, _ of money going for every game, every tour, everym — of money going for every game, every tour. everym tou— of money going for every game, every tour. every---— tour, every... you know. massive dedication- _ tour, every... you know. massive dedication. there _ tour, every... you know. massive dedication. there players - tour, every... you know. massive dedication. there players like i tour, every... you know. massive i dedication. there players like ricky walden last night, _ dedication. there players like ricky walden last night, it's _ dedication. there players like ricky walden last night, it's unfair. i dedication. there players like ricky walden last night, it's unfair. they| walden last night, it's unfair. they spend _ walden last night, it's unfair. they spend so— walden last night, it's unfair. they spend so much— walden last night, it's unfair. they spend so much money— walden last night, it's unfair. they spend so much money getting i walden last night, it's unfair. they. spend so much money getting there, it is their— spend so much money getting there, it is their own— spend so much money getting there, it is their own money. _ spend so much money getting there, it is their own money. they- spend so much money getting there, it is their own money. they do - spend so much money getting there, it is their own money. they do not. it is their own money. they do not do anything~~ _ it is their own money. they do not

do anything... what _ it is their own money. they do not do anything... what does - it is their own money. they do not do anything... what does mark i it is their own money. they do not. do anything... what does mark allen doubt _ do anything... what does mark allen doubt for— do anything... what does mark allen doubt for the? — do anything... what does mark allen doubt for the? doesn't _ do anything... what does mark allen doubt for the? doesn't do _ do anything... what does mark allen doubt for the? doesn't do anything i doubt for the? doesn't do anything for the, _ doubt for the? doesn't do anything forthe. it's— doubt for the? doesn't do anything for the, it's ridiculous. _ doubt for the? doesn't do anything forthe, it's ridiculous. i— doubt for the? doesn't do anything for the, it's ridiculous. i don't- for the, it's ridiculous. i don't know— for the, it's ridiculous. i don't know what— for the, it's ridiculous. i don't know what they _ for the, it's ridiculous. i don't know what they have - for the, it's ridiculous. i don't know what they have done i for the, it's ridiculous. i don't know what they have done to| for the, it's ridiculous. i don't- know what they have done to harm the people? _ know what they have done to harm the people? they— know what they have done to harm the people? they have _ know what they have done to harm the people? they have done _ know what they have done to harm the people? they have done nothing. i people? they have done nothing. these _ people? they have done nothing. these people _ people? they have done nothing. these people have _ people? they have done nothing. these people have done - people? they have done nothing. these people have done nothingl people? they have done nothing. i these people have done nothing but harm and _ these people have done nothing but harm and the — these people have done nothing but harm and the train— these people have done nothing but harm and the train five, _ these people have done nothing but harm and the train five, six, - these people have done nothing but harm and the train five, six, seven i harm and the train five, six, seven hours _ harm and the train five, six, seven hours every— harm and the train five, six, seven hours every day _ harm and the train five, six, seven hours every day. but— harm and the train five, six, seven hours every day-— harm and the train five, six, seven hours every day. but what about the bi aer hours every day. but what about the bigger picture. _ hours every day. but what about the bigger picture. do — hours every day. but what about the bigger picture, do you _ hours every day. but what about the bigger picture, do you understand i bigger picture, do you understand the threat we face? i bigger picture, do you understand the threat we face?— the threat we face? i do, i do, eah, the threat we face? i do, i do, yeah. and _ the threat we face? i do, i do, yeah. and the _ the threat we face? i do, i do, yeah, and the plight _ the threat we face? i do, i do, yeah, and the plight of- the threat we face? i do, i do, | yeah, and the plight of china... the threat we face? i do, i do, i yeah, and the plight of china... the flying _ yeah, and the plight of china... the flying to _ yeah, and the plight of china... the flying to china, _ yeah, and the plight of china... the flying to china, the _ yeah, and the plight of china... the flying to china, the costs _ yeah, and the plight of china... the flying to china, the costs a - yeah, and the plight of china... the flying to china, the costs a lot - yeah, and the plight of china... the flying to china, the costs a lot of. flying to china, the costs a lot of money, — flying to china, the costs a lot of money, to — flying to china, the costs a lot of money, to be _ flying to china, the costs a lot of money, to be in— flying to china, the costs a lot of money, to be in the _ flying to china, the costs a lot of money, to be in the top- flying to china, the costs a lot of money, to be in the top 16 - flying to china, the costs a lot of money, to be in the top 16 in i flying to china, the costs a lot of| money, to be in the top 16 in the world _ money, to be in the top 16 in the world. �* , money, to be in the top 16 in the world. 3 . ., money, to be in the top 16 in the world. �*, ., ,, ., , world. let's talk about the bigger threat, world. let's talk about the bigger threat. matt _ world. let's talk about the bigger threat, matt norton. _ i sympathise with the protesters, i

have listened to your show before, and i thought i would text into today and sympathise. i couldn't ever do that myself. i have campaigned and been two matches and e—mailed my mp and gave money to the right charities to try and combat climate change, but if i was younger, i can understand the desperation that people are facing with the threat of climate change and why they take this action. it is annoying to the crowd, no—one wants to upset people. i'm sure they are fairly normal people. we know it is a cross—section of society now, it is not extremists, weirdos. it is normal people, intelligent, from different backgrounds that they feel compelled to take this action. part of me is sort of envious that they have got this bravery, because at this stage of my life i couldn't do that. if i was younger again, i think i would probably bejoining them. ii

think i would probably be 'oining them. , l, think i would probably be 'oining them. i, think i would probably be 'oining them. ., ., . ., them. if you are watching an incredible — them. if you are watching an incredible snooker _ them. if you are watching an incredible snooker match, i them. if you are watching an i incredible snooker match, you them. if you are watching an - incredible snooker match, you are enthralled, engrossed by the tension in the crucible, and are not happened, how would you feel? i’d in the crucible, and are not happened, how would you feel? i'd be shocked, like — happened, how would you feel? i'd be shocked, like the _ happened, how would you feel? i'd be shocked, like the lady _ happened, how would you feel? i'd be shocked, like the lady said, _ happened, how would you feel? i�*c ye: shocked, like the lady said, it was shocking to be there, but shock is what we need. if you are in another part of the world and you have just lost your livelihood through climate change, that is more of an issue than a snooker match being interrupted. i watched the grand national and i was frustrated, because that is my one indulgence, horse racing, but i was not throwing things at the television and it was not the end of the world. people watching the snooker will recover, and the threat of climate change, it is so much more serious than any sporting event. it is frustrating, i kind of sit on the fence a little

bit. ifi kind of sit on the fence a little bit. if i spent 50 quid to watch a good snooker game and it was ruined, i would be frustrated.— i would be frustrated. bigger icture, i would be frustrated. bigger picture, hmm. _ i would be frustrated. bigger picture, hmm. if— i would be frustrated. bigger picture, hmm. if they - i would be frustrated. bigger picture, hmm. if they turn i i would be frustrated. bigger. picture, hmm. if they turn their anuer on picture, hmm. if they turn their anger on the — picture, hmm. if they turn their anger on the powers _ picture, hmm. if they turn their anger on the powers that - picture, hmm. if they turn their anger on the powers that be - picture, hmm. if they turn their anger on the powers that be in | picture, hmm. if they turn their. anger on the powers that be in the decision makers, that is where we should be focused, protesters are just doing the little they can to make a difference. b, just doing the little they can to make a difference.— just doing the little they can to make a difference. a quick word, he is riaht, make a difference. a quick word, he is right. isn't — make a difference. a quick word, he is right, isn't he? _ make a difference. a quick word, he is right, isn't he? i— make a difference. a quick word, he is right, isn't he? i don't _ make a difference. a quick word, he is right, isn't he? i don't know, - make a difference. a quick word, he is right, isn't he? i don't know, he l is right, isn't he? i don't know, he makes a very _ is right, isn't he? i don't know, he makes a very good _ is right, isn't he? i don't know, he makes a very good point, - is right, isn't he? i don't know, he makes a very good point, but - is right, isn't he? i don't know, he makes a very good point, but if. is right, isn't he? i don't know, he l makes a very good point, but if your natural_ makes a very good point, but if your natural reaction when someone has thrown _ natural reaction when someone has thrown something, we didn't know what the _ thrown something, we didn't know what the powder was, we didn't know how dangerous it was. it tends to be the people _ how dangerous it was. it tends to be the people that have impacted you. rather— the people that have impacted you. rather than disrupting normal pe0pte's— rather than disrupting normal people's lives, if they tried to engage — people's lives, if they tried to engage in different ways and get them _ engage in different ways and get them joining to shout against the powers— them joining to shout against the powers that be, rather than sporting fans that _ powers that be, rather than sporting fans that might be more effective.

thank_ fans that might be more effective. thank you — fans that might be more effective. thank you all very much... i am going to call a temporary halt, but you're very welcome to stay, we want to hear from you're very welcome to stay, we want to hearfrom people. sean, are you there? ijust want to hearfrom people. sean, are you there? i just want to thank you for being there this morning, or have you gone? being there this morning, or have ou one? ., ., , ., being there this morning, or have ou one? ., . , ., ,, you gone? no, i am here, before you throw me out. _ you gone? no, i am here, before you throw me out. i _ you gone? no, i am here, before you throw me out, i would _ you gone? no, i am here, before you throw me out, i would like _ you gone? no, i am here, before you throw me out, i would like to - you gone? no, i am here, before you throw me out, i would like to say - you gone? no, i am here, before you throw me out, i would like to say to l throw me out, i would like to say to the guys _ throw me out, i would like to say to the guys at — throw me out, i would like to say to the guys at the world snooker tour, and everyone who is the, it caused carnage _ and everyone who is the, it caused carnage at— and everyone who is the, it caused carnage at the crucible, and the lady who— carnage at the crucible, and the lady who was on was correct, one of the biggest — lady who was on was correct, one of the biggest fears was that we didn't know what the powder was, everyone was masked up, and mc rob walker was in the _ was masked up, and mc rob walker was in the auditorium hoovering it up, absolutely— in the auditorium hoovering it up, absolutely first class. world snooker— absolutely first class. world snooker tour did get the action going _ snooker tour did get the action going on— snooker tour did get the action going on the table that was not affected. — going on the table that was not affected, although i protest i did try to _

affected, although i protest i did try to get — affected, although i protest i did try to get there as well. people did -et try to get there as well. people did get to— try to get there as well. people did get to see — try to get there as well. people did get to see the conclusion of mark allen— get to see the conclusion of mark allen against fan zhengyi, and the scheduled match from last night that was disrupted well commence tonight. so i think— was disrupted well commence tonight. so i think the tour, i myself have been _ so i think the tour, i myself have been very— so i think the tour, i myself have been very critical of them in the past, _ been very critical of them in the past, they— been very critical of them in the past, they have had lots of issues, but for— past, they have had lots of issues, but for last— past, they have had lots of issues, but for last night they deserve very hi-h but for last night they deserve very high praise, protocols will change in terms — high praise, protocols will change in terms of— high praise, protocols will change in terms of the ease of access for crowds _ in terms of the ease of access for crowds at — in terms of the ease of access for crowds at snooker events now, that is inevitable. but i think they deserve _ is inevitable. but i think they deserve very high praise. great for ou to deserve very high praise. great for you to come _ deserve very high praise. great for you to come on — deserve very high praise. great for you to come on this _ deserve very high praise. great for you to come on this morning - deserve very high praise. great for you to come on this morning and l deserve very high praise. great for i you to come on this morning and hear your measured thoughts, carnage at the crucible, carnage on our planet, a tube for change. more to come, get in touch. snp treasurer colin beattie has been arrested by police investigating

the party's finances. he's been taken into custody and is being questioned by detectives. ofgem says all household energy suppliers have agreed to a new code of practice, which will ban forcibly installing prepayment meters in the homes of people over 85. it comes after british gas was criticised for breaking into people's homes to fit them. mps are calling for faster progress to tackle what they call "appalling" higher death rates for black women and those from poorer areas in childbirth. the women and equalities committee report says racism has played a key role in creating health disparities. the government says it's focusing on improving outcomes for all mothers. bird flu restrictions are being eased across most of the uk, allowing poultry that's been kept inside over the winter to return outdoors. since the measures came into effect in november, eggs described in shops as "free range" have come from hens kept indoors. let's get the latest sport with katie smith. former world champion shaun murphy's been telling nicky's programme

that he has sympathy for the protesters who stopped play at the world snooker championship last night after climbing onto the table and spreading orange paint powder. round one action continues this morning at 11. ahead of their champions league quarterfinal second leg tonight against real madrid, interim boss frank lampard says he's comfortable with chelsea co—owner todd boehly coming into their dressing room to tell players the season had been embarrassing. they're only 11th in the premier league. commentary of the match tonight on 5 live. jurgen klopp says that was the best he's seen his side play in an inconsistent season, as liverpool trounced leeds 6—1, two goals each for mo salah and diogojota, while leeds stay in trouble at the bottom, two points above the relegation zone. and manchester city have submitted plans today to the local council for the development of new entertainment facilities

integrated into the etihad complex. it would also increase the capacity of their stadium to over 60,000. more to come on the protests at the crucible, let me tell you what is going to happen at ten o'clock. race and pregnancy, your stories there. black women are nearly four times

more likely than white women to die within six weeks of giving birth. we will explore that and try to find out all the factors involved. asian women are 1.8 times more likely according to uk figures from 2018-20. it is according to uk figures from 2018—20. it is pretty shocking. appalling, says the equalities committee who say that racism has played a key role in creating these disparities. i wonder what else is factorial here. the nhs in england says it is committed to making maternity care safer for all women in the government says it has invested £165 million in the maternity workforce, is a race and pregnancy, your stories, plays, coming up at ten.

they brushed away the orange powder, but you cannot brush away the massive problem we all face. a very divisive topic, i understand points on both sides. as scary as this sounds, my initialfear on both sides. as scary as this sounds, my initial fear was for the safety of players and the crowd, plumes of dust, a scene similar to a batman movie. just stop 0il plumes of dust, a scene similar to a batman movie. just stop oil may have made their point but how many people have they terrified in the process? i understand they want awareness, but they should equally want the population on the side, rather than against them. unfortunately, i think they're going the wrong direction with protest. another one, make protest is paying for the damage. i wonder what emma browne says about that, spokesperson forjust stop 0il, hello. that, spokesperson forjust stop oil, hello. . ~ that, spokesperson forjust stop oil, hello. ., ,, that, spokesperson forjust stop oil, hello. . ~' , . that, spokesperson forjust stop oil, hello. ., ,, , . ., oil, hello. thank you very much for havin: oil, hello. thank you very much for having me — oil, hello. thank you very much for having me on- _ oil, hello. thank you very much for having me on. you _ oil, hello. thank you very much for having me on. you have _ oil, hello. thank you very much for having me on. you have got - oil, hello. thank you very much for.

having me on. you have got yourself on the radi0- — having me on. you have got yourself on the radio. kate, _ having me on. you have got yourself on the radio. kate, dave, _ having me on. you have got yourself on the radio. kate, dave, christian l on the radio. kate, dave, christian in cardiff, welcome to all of you, are you there, dave? i think you might want to ask a question or two of emma from just stop 0il, might want to ask a question or two of emma from just stop oil, and you have your opportunity, fire away. i just wanted to voice an opinion, i have _ just wanted to voice an opinion, i have been— just wanted to voice an opinion, i have been a _ just wanted to voice an opinion, i have been a snooker fan for a hell of a long — have been a snooker fan for a hell of a long fine, and i don't think i've ever— of a long fine, and i don't think i've ever seen anything of the sort. i've ever seen anything of the sort. i don't _ i've ever seen anything of the sort. i don't disagree with any kind of protest — idon't disagree with any kind of protest if— i don't disagree with any kind of protest if people have issues, but i do disagree with anything that will cause _ do disagree with anything that will cause criminal damage or anything like that, _ cause criminal damage or anything like that, and especially jeopardising the safety of players and things. it seems a bit extreme for something like that to be going on at _ for something like that to be going on at a _ for something like that to be going on at a snooker event. i don't understand the reason behind that. christian— understand the reason behind that. christian in— understand the reason behind that. christian in cardiff, we will add your voice then hearfrom emma. just your voice then hear from emma. just re -aeatin your voice then hear from emma. just repeating what other people have said, _ repeating what other people have said. really. — repeating what other people have said, really, they— repeating what other people have said, really, they have _ repeating what other people have said, really, they have gone - said, really, they have gone ridiculous— said, really, they have gone ridiculous now. _

said, really, they have gone ridiculous now. it— said, really, they have gone ridiculous now. it is- said, really, they have gone ridiculous now. it is all- said, really, they have gone ridiculous now. it is all right said, really, they have gone . ridiculous now. it is all right to have _ ridiculous now. it is all right to have protest— ridiculous now. it is all right to have protest outside _ ridiculous now. it is all right to l have protest outside government buildings — have protest outside government buildings and _ have protest outside government buildings and in _ have protest outside government buildings and in the _ have protest outside government buildings and in the cities, - have protest outside government buildings and in the cities, we . have protest outside government l buildings and in the cities, we have them _ buildings and in the cities, we have them here — buildings and in the cities, we have them here in— buildings and in the cities, we have them here in cardiff, _ buildings and in the cities, we have them here in cardiff, but— buildings and in the cities, we have them here in cardiff, but to - buildings and in the cities, we have them here in cardiff, but to do - buildings and in the cities, we have. them here in cardiff, but to do them at sporting _ them here in cardiff, but to do them at sporting events, _ them here in cardiff, but to do them at sporting events, like _ them here in cardiff, but to do them at sporting events, like if— them here in cardiff, but to do them at sporting events, like if i— them here in cardiff, but to do them at sporting events, like if i wanted . at sporting events, like if i wanted to go— at sporting events, like if i wanted to go to _ at sporting events, like if i wanted to go to a — at sporting events, like if i wanted to go to a sporting _ at sporting events, like if i wanted to go to a sporting event, - at sporting events, like if i wanted to go to a sporting event, i- at sporting events, like if i wanted to go to a sporting event, i would i to go to a sporting event, i would have _ to go to a sporting event, i would have to _ to go to a sporting event, i would have to do — to go to a sporting event, i would have to do overtime _ to go to a sporting event, i would have to do overtime to _ to go to a sporting event, i would have to do overtime to pay - to go to a sporting event, i would have to do overtime to pay for. to go to a sporting event, i would | have to do overtime to pay for my ticket _ have to do overtime to pay for my ticket to— have to do overtime to pay for my ticket to go— have to do overtime to pay for my ticket to go and _ have to do overtime to pay for my ticket to go and watch _ have to do overtime to pay for my ticket to go and watch it, - have to do overtime to pay for my ticket to go and watch it, plus - have to do overtime to pay for my ticket to go and watch it, plus thej ticket to go and watch it, plus the travelling — ticket to go and watch it, plus the travelling and _ ticket to go and watch it, plus the travelling and everything - ticket to go and watch it, plus the travelling and everything else, i ticket to go and watch it, plus the travelling and everything else, soj travelling and everything else, so they are — travelling and everything else, so they are costing _ travelling and everything else, so they are costing people _ travelling and everything else, so they are costing people money. l travelling and everything else, so . they are costing people money. and like, they are costing people money. and like. i_ they are costing people money. and like, i understand _ they are costing people money. and like, i understand climate _ they are costing people money. and like, i understand climate change i like, i understand climate change and yeah. — like, i understand climate change and yeah. i— like, i understand climate change and yeah, ithink— like, i understand climate change and yeah, i think something - like, i understand climate change - and yeah, i think something probably has to— and yeah, i think something probably has to be _ and yeah, i think something probably has to be done — and yeah, i think something probably has to be done for— and yeah, i think something probably has to be done for the _ and yeah, i think something probably has to be done for the future - and yeah, i think something probably has to be done for the future of- and yeah, i think something probably has to be done for the future of my . has to be done for the future of my grandchildren's _ has to be done for the future of my grandchildren's grandchildren, - has to be done for the future of my grandchildren's grandchildren, i- grandchildren's grandchildren, i think— grandchildren's grandchildren, i think that — grandchildren's grandchildren, i think that is _ grandchildren's grandchildren, i think that is how— grandchildren's grandchildren, i think that is how far _ grandchildren's grandchildren, i think that is how far down - grandchildren's grandchildren, i think that is how far down the l grandchildren's grandchildren, i. think that is how far down the line we are _ think that is how far down the line we are looking _ think that is how far down the line we are looking. but— think that is how far down the line we are looking. but that - think that is how far down the line we are looking. but that is - think that is how far down the line we are looking. but that is not. think that is how far down the line| we are looking. but that is not the way to— we are looking. but that is not the way to do— we are looking. but that is not the way to do it — we are looking. but that is not the way to do it— we are looking. but that is not the way to do it.- thank- we are looking. but that is not the way to do it.- thank you . we are looking. but that is not the way to do it.- thank you so | way to do it. emma. thank you so much, way to do it. emma. thank you so much. dave _ way to do it. emma. thank you so much, dave and _ way to do it. emma. thank you so much, dave and christian, - way to do it. emma. thank you so much, dave and christian, for - way to do it. emma. thank you so | much, dave and christian, for your questions and comments. i do understand that it is incredibly frustrating and being disrupted or having something you enjoyed being disrupted is, like, shocking, and it is not like we want to be disrupting

people, you know, it is not like we want to stop people's enjoyment of the game. but unfortunately, like, i don't think that some paint is extreme. i think what is extreme is the fact that you were talking earlier on your programme, going into it about pregnancy and race, well, the climate crisis is racist. we are predicting potentially this summer reaching wet bulb temperatures, which means that the humidity is so extreme, along with the temperature, that it is impossible for human beings to survive outside, that will happen in parts of the world which have least caused the problem, and our government is pushing ahead with oil and gas, and that is an act of genocide. that is why our actions, they are non—violent, they are just a spectacle, and it is to get attention, because that is how our media works. we have to do the actions to get the attention. we need a diversity of tactics, right?

because the problem affects everyone, and we are asking people tojoin us and march on everyone, and we are asking people to join us and march on the 24th of april and show that their opposition to the government's plans. i understand it is shocking and frustrating, but if your home is underwater, if your houses on fire in london, like last year, to me thatis in london, like last year, to me that is extreme, and not kind of challenging our and challenging society to react to that, that is what i find more worrying. yeah, that is- -- — what i find more worrying. yeah, that is... sorry, _ what i find more worrying. yeah, that is... sorry, can _ what i find more worrying. yeah, that is... sorry, can i _ what i find more worrying. yeah, that is... sorry, can i speak? - what i find more worrying. yeah, | that is... sorry, can i speak? you say it— that is... sorry, can i speak? you say it is— that is... sorry, can i speak? you say it is not— that is... sorry, can i speak? you say it is not extreme, but you read into this _ say it is not extreme, but you read into this how— say it is not extreme, but you read into this how you want to read into it. into this how you want to read into it you _ into this how you want to read into it you are — into this how you want to read into it. you are creating thousands of people _ it. you are creating thousands of people across the country that are striking _ people across the country that are striking fear into people going about— striking fear into people going about their normal business, doing things— about their normal business, doing things on— about their normal business, doing things on the time off. this is not the way— things on the time off. this is not the way to— things on the time off. this is not the way to do it.— things on the time off. this is not the way to do it. christian, i would re'ect the the way to do it. christian, i would reject the notion _ the way to do it. christian, i would reject the notion that _ the way to do it. christian, i would reject the notion that we _ the way to do it. christian, i would reject the notion that we are - reject the notion that we are creating fear in people. it is

disruption, it is inconvenient, it might be annoying, you know, gluing yourself to a road, but it doesn't strike fear into people. i disagree. it is more frightening, _ strike fear into people. i disagree. it is more frightening, the - it is more frightening, the government destroying our nhs, ploughing ahead with more oil and gas when we know that... haste ploughing ahead with more oil and gas when we know that. .. have you ourself gas when we know that. .. have you yourself being _ gas when we know that. .. have you yourself being involved, _ gas when we know that. .. have you yourself being involved, emma, - gas when we know that. .. have you i yourself being involved, emma, have yourself being involved, emma, have you yourself been involved in any direct action protests recently? yeah, i have you know, it seems bizarre, doesn't it, targeting the grand national? i know that wasn't us, sporting events, but we do actually blockade oil and gas terminals and cost these companies, which are making billions of profits out of us, whilst contributing to climate breakdown, we did occupy them for two weeks in april last year and because lots of material disruption, cost them a lot of money, but it didn't make any news. if you do a protest, and you do an

action that doesn't make any impact or get any conversation started, thatis or get any conversation started, that is just ignored, then there is no point doing it. this that isjust ignored, then there is no point doing it.— that isjust ignored, then there is no point doing it. as we heard early on from graham, _ no point doing it. as we heard early on from graham, there _ no point doing it. as we heard early on from graham, there will- no point doing it. as we heard early on from graham, there will be - no point doing it. as we heard early| on from graham, there will be much more of this now, isn't there? mm—hmm. we will be marching on the streets on the 24th, slow matches which are disruptive but not illegal, because at the moment, even with the crime and policing bill, we have the right to process down the streets, so we will be doing that week after week after week, because week after week after week, because we have learned that attrition is really the only thing that works, putting pressure on the government. we are coming up against people with a lot of power, this is the richest industry in the world, and unfortunately the government and mps are getting a lot of donations from oil and gas companies, a lot of them... liz truss used to work for, nadhim zahawi worked for an oil company. we are ordinary people up

against this machine. the company. we are ordinary people up against this machine.— against this machine. the crime and olicin: against this machine. the crime and policing bill. — against this machine. the crime and policing bill, suella _ against this machine. the crime and policing bill, suella braverman - policing bill, suella braverman wanted to go much further, it looks like the house of lords has been moderating that, aspects of that that many people are not happy with. but in general, it has been a worry for civil liberties campaigners. what is the next sporting event you will disrupt? i what is the next sporting event you will disrupt?_ will disrupt? i don't actually know! you must have _ will disrupt? i don't actually know! you must have planned _ will disrupt? i don't actually know! you must have planned it. - will disrupt? i don't actually know! you must have planned it. not - will disrupt? i don't actually know! you must have planned it. not mej you must have planned it. not me personally. _ you must have planned it. not me personally. and — you must have planned it. not me personally, and especially - you must have planned it. not me personally, and especially of - you must have planned it. not me personally, and especially of the l personally, and especially of the police are listening! you personally, and especially of the police are listening!— personally, and especially of the police are listening! you are at the to table, police are listening! you are at the top table. you _ police are listening! you are at the top table. you do _ police are listening! you are at the top table, you do now, _ police are listening! you are at the top table, you do now, don't - police are listening! you are at the top table, you do now, don't you? | top table, you do now, don't you? may? no, idon't top table, you do now, don't you? may? no, i don't know. if top table, you do now, don't you? may? no, i don't know.— may? no, i don't know. if you are makin: may? no, i don't know. if you are making protests _ may? no, i don't know. if you are making protests in _ may? no, i don't know. if you are making protests in your— may? no, i don't know. if you are making protests in your own - may? no, i don't know. if you are| making protests in your own cities and industry, that is fair enough, but going — and industry, that is fair enough, but going into buildings and making these _ but going into buildings and making these protests, you know, light into fields— these protests, you know, light into fields where maybe sporting events are being _ fields where maybe sporting events are being held, it isjust not the way to— are being held, it isjust not the way to go _ are being held, it isjust not the way to go. and you say about disrupting oil refineries or

wherever, and you say this didn't make _ wherever, and you say this didn't make the — wherever, and you say this didn't make the news or wherever, and it has cost _ make the news or wherever, and it has cost them millions of pounds, but where — has cost them millions of pounds, but where is that cost going to? it is going _ but where is that cost going to? it is going to — but where is that cost going to? it is going to us, the public. just protest — is going to us, the public. just protest outside government buildings and against government, not ordinary people _ and against government, not ordinary people i _ and against government, not ordinary --eole. . ., and against government, not ordinary neale, ., ., , and against government, not ordinary --eole. . ., , ., people. i want to bring in maria in coventry and _ people. i want to bring in maria in coventry and also _ people. i want to bring in maria in coventry and also kate _ people. i want to bring in maria in coventry and also kate in - coventry and also kate in walthamstow, you have been waiting for ages, walthamstow, you have been waiting forages, hello walthamstow, you have been waiting for ages, hello to you, you are very welcome. kate, are they right to do this? , ., ., , , this? yes, i mean, i absolutely auree this? yes, i mean, i absolutely agree with _ this? yes, i mean, i absolutely agree with some _ this? yes, i mean, i absolutely agree with some of— this? yes, i mean, i absolutely agree with some of the - this? yes, i mean, i absolutely. agree with some of the comments this? yes, i mean, i absolutely- agree with some of the comments that have been— agree with some of the comments that have been made — agree with some of the comments that have been made by— agree with some of the comments that have been made by earlier— agree with some of the comments that have been made by earlier callers - have been made by earlier callers that this — have been made by earlier callers that this is — have been made by earlier callers that this is an _ have been made by earlier callers that this is an act _ have been made by earlier callers that this is an act of— have been made by earlier callers that this is an act of desperation, | that this is an act of desperation, but the _ that this is an act of desperation, but the people _ that this is an act of desperation, but the people who _ that this is an act of desperation, but the people who have - that this is an act of desperation, but the people who have been . that this is an act of desperation, but the people who have been on that this is an act of desperation, - but the people who have been on the phones _ but the people who have been on the phones who— but the people who have been on the phones who have _ but the people who have been on the phones who have understood - but the people who have been on the phones who have understood and - but the people who have been on the. phones who have understood and have shown _ phones who have understood and have shown that _ phones who have understood and have shown that they — phones who have understood and have shown that they understand _ phones who have understood and have shown that they understand the - shown that they understand the gravity — shown that they understand the gravity of — shown that they understand the gravity of the _ shown that they understand the gravity of the climate _ shown that they understand the gravity of the climate crisis - shown that they understand the | gravity of the climate crisis have also shown _ gravity of the climate crisis have also shown that _ gravity of the climate crisis have also shown that they— gravity of the climate crisis have| also shown that they understand gravity of the climate crisis have - also shown that they understand that ridiculous— also shown that they understand that ridiculous spectacle _ also shown that they understand that ridiculous spectacle is _ also shown that they understand that ridiculous spectacle is what _ also shown that they understand that ridiculous spectacle is what we - also shown that they understand that

ridiculous spectacle is what we needl

we do not want to have any cars any more. it we do not want to have any cars any more. , ., , . . we do not want to have any cars any more. , ., , . more. it is going be electric cars. thins more. it is going be electric cars. things will— more. it is going be electric cars. things will take _ more. it is going be electric cars. things will take time. _ more. it is going be electric cars. things will take time. and - more. it is going be electric cars. things will take time. and try - more. it is going be electric cars. things will take time. and try to | things will take time. and try to recoup the money that the government is keeping the country up and it was going through the pandemic. that is not something that is going to happen in the next two—year, five years, ten years. we cannot expect it to happen this fast, no matter what people say. unless you have a solution to the problem you are

raising, you cannot think it will happen this fast at all. you cannot. it's interesting you say it cannot happen— it's interesting you say it cannot happen this fast because it is important to make clear that our demands— important to make clear that our demands are not to turn off the oilfields— demands are not to turn off the oilfields overnight, it's to stop new exploration and development. it will take _ new exploration and development. it will take 10—15 years for those to start— will take 10—15 years for those to start producing oil and gas. we have -ot start producing oil and gas. we have got current— start producing oil and gas. we have got current oil and gas fields and even _ got current oil and gas fields and even a _ got current oil and gas fields and even a coal— got current oil and gas fields and even a coal mine now that will continue — even a coal mine now that will continue powering the country long enough _ continue powering the country long enough to— continue powering the country long enough to get us through a transition period but what we are saying _ transition period but what we are saying is— transition period but what we are saying is we need to accelerate the start of— saying is we need to accelerate the start of the — saying is we need to accelerate the start of the transition which is not the case — start of the transition which is not the case if— start of the transition which is not the case if the government is handing _ the case if the government is handing out new licences to oil and -as handing out new licences to oil and gas fields — handing out new licences to oil and gas fields. if you red the latest report— gas fields. if you red the latest report you will see its very clear that 2050 — report you will see its very clear that 2050 is much too late as an ambition— that 2050 is much too late as an

ambition and even in that timeframe, the uk _ ambition and even in that timeframe, the uk government is not meeting its targets— the uk government is not meeting its targets or— the uk government is not meeting its targets or on track to meet net zero targets. — targets or on track to meet net zero tar: ets. . ., targets or on track to meet net zero taraets. ,., . ,, ., , targets or on track to meet net zero taruets. ., , targets or on track to meet net zero taruets. . ~' ., , . targets. going back to my point at the beginning. _ targets. going back to my point at the beginning, we _ targets. going back to my point at the beginning, we as _ targets. going back to my point at the beginning, we as the - targets. going back to my point at the beginning, we as the uk - targets. going back to my point at the beginning, we as the uk are i targets. going back to my point at. the beginning, we as the uk are very small, we are doing something but we are not the cause and even if we change everything immediately, we are not going to be the ones that save the world because we are just not big enough to have caused all that can change it. but not big enough to have caused all that can change it.— not big enough to have caused all that can change it. but shouldn't we be rlobal that can change it. but shouldn't we be global leaders? _ that can change it. but shouldn't we be global leaders? this _ that can change it. but shouldn't we be global leaders? this is _ that can change it. but shouldn't we be global leaders? this is global. be global leaders? this is global britain. . . be global leaders? this is global britain. . , . britain. that is the point. we were rlobal britain. that is the point. we were global leaders _ britain. that is the point. we were global leaders at _ britain. that is the point. we were global leaders at the _ britain. that is the point. we were global leaders at the beginning . britain. that is the point. we were global leaders at the beginning of| global leaders at the beginning of the industrial revolution, one of the industrial revolution, one of the countries that kicked off the reliance — the countries that kicked off the reliance on fossil fuels on the fossil— reliance on fossil fuels on the fossil fuel economy but historical emissions, we had a huge contribution and the other thing,

that complicated getting into, a lot of the _ that complicated getting into, a lot of the manufacturing that used to take place in the uk takes place in china _ take place in the uk takes place in china so— take place in the uk takes place in china so people say go and protest in china _ china so people say go and protest in china but— china so people say go and protest in china but we are paying china to produce _ in china but we are paying china to produce things for us. it is more complicated than the uk is a small country— complicated than the uk is a small country and we are doing our best, we need _ country and we are doing our best, we need to— country and we are doing our best, we need to do much better. we country and we are doing our best, we need to do much better.- country and we are doing our best, we need to do much better. we do not have control — we need to do much better. we do not have control any _ we need to do much better. we do not have control any more. _ we need to do much better. we do not have control any more. hold _ we need to do much better. we do not have control any more. hold your - have control any more. hold your horses, everyone, _ have control any more. hold your horses, everyone, hold _ have control any more. hold your horses, everyone, hold your - have control any more. hold your . horses, everyone, hold your horses, everyone. wait a minute, some breaking news. iwant everyone. wait a minute, some breaking news. i want to concentrate on that for a moment but we will come back to you. more on the news of the arrest by police investigating the snp finances, jamie mcivor is with us, what has happened?— jamie mcivor is with us, what has hauened? , happened? this story has 'ust broken in the ast happened? this story has 'ust broken in the past hour. * happened? this story has 'ust broken in the past hour, we _ happened? this story has 'ust broken in the past hour, we are _ happened? this story hasjust broken in the past hour, we are limited - happened? this story hasjust broken in the past hour, we are limited as . in the past hour, we are limited as to what we can say but what we know

is the snp treasurer colin beattie has been arrested and police say the arrest was made in connection with the ongoing investigation into the funding and finances of the snp and they say a report will be sent to they say a report will be sent to the crown 0ffice they say a report will be sent to the crown office and the prospect of the crown office and the prospect of the school. mr beattie is aged 71, the school. mr beattie is aged 71, the msp for the midlothian north and the msp for the midlothian north and the musselburgh constituency. he was the musselburgh constituency. he was the snp treasurer for 16 years up to 2020 and he took up the post again last year. our colleagues have been outside his home this morning and there is no sign of any police activity. these events follow on from events two weeks ago when you recall the former chief executive of the snp peter merrill, the husband of the former first minister nicola sturgeon was arrested and questioned as part of the investigation. he was later released without charge. their home was searched by officers as

part of this investigation. it is all probably in terms of the timing rather unfortunate for the new first minister of scotland onset use of who is due to set out his political priorities to the scottish parliament today, hoping to reset what has been a difficult first few weeks for him, safe to say this story will be the one dominating the headlines. , . ., ~ story will be the one dominating the headlines. , . ., ,, , ., headlines. jamie, thank you. challenging _ headlines. jamie, thank you. challenging times _ headlines. jamie, thank you. challenging times for - headlines. jamie, thank you. challenging times for the - headlines. jamie, thank you. - challenging times for the scottish national party and more of that news on bbc news and bbc radio 5 live throughout the day. rose, from titchfield, you canjoin us, he knocks over his coffee! what is your considered opinion on this?- considered opinion on this? climate chance is considered opinion on this? climate change is one _ considered opinion on this? climate change is one of— considered opinion on this? climate change is one of those _ considered opinion on this? climate change is one of those issues - considered opinion on this? climate j change is one of those issues where it has— change is one of those issues where it has to _ change is one of those issues where it has to come — change is one of those issues where it has to come to _ change is one of those issues where it has to come to the _ change is one of those issues where it has to come to the public- change is one of those issues where it has to come to the public view. i it has to come to the public view. it will— it has to come to the public view. it will affect — it has to come to the public view. it will affect everyone _ it has to come to the public view. it will affect everyone and -

it has to come to the public view. it will affect everyone and it - it will affect everyone and it doesn't _ it will affect everyone and it doesn't matter— it will affect everyone and it doesn't matter as _ it will affect everyone and it doesn't matter as david - it will affect everyone and it - doesn't matter as david attenborough says how _ doesn't matter as david attenborough says how small— doesn't matter as david attenborough says how small the _ doesn't matter as david attenborough says how small the action _ doesn't matter as david attenborough says how small the action is _ doesn't matter as david attenborough says how small the action is or- doesn't matter as david attenborough says how small the action is or the - says how small the action is or the difference — says how small the action is or the difference is — says how small the action is or the difference is. we _ says how small the action is or the difference is. we cannot _ says how small the action is or the difference is. we cannot change i difference is. we cannot change every— difference is. we cannot change every single _ difference is. we cannot change every single country— difference is. we cannot change every single country but - difference is. we cannot change every single country but we - difference is. we cannot change every single country but we can| difference is. we cannot change . every single country but we can be world _ every single country but we can be world leaders. _ every single country but we can be world leaders. and _ every single country but we can be world leaders. and we _ every single country but we can be world leaders. and we need - every single country but we can be world leaders. and we need to - every single country but we can be world leaders. and we need to be. britain _ world leaders. and we need to be. britain started _ world leaders. and we need to be. britain started all— world leaders. and we need to be. britain started all of— world leaders. and we need to be. britain started all of this. - world leaders. and we need to be. britain started all of this. i- world leaders. and we need to be. britain started all of this. i am - britain started all of this. i am not a — britain started all of this. i am not a climate _ britain started all of this. i am not a climate activist, - britain started all of this. i am not a climate activist, i - britain started all of this. i am not a climate activist, i do - britain started all of this. i am not a climate activist, i do notj not a climate activist, i do not represent _ not a climate activist, i do not represent any _ not a climate activist, i do not represent any group _ not a climate activist, i do not represent any group which - not a climate activist, i do not represent any group which are climate — represent any group which are climate activist _ represent any group which are climate activist based... - represent any group which are climate activist based... can i represent any group which are climate activist based... can you imaaine climate activist based... can you imagine yourself _ climate activist based... can you imagine yourself doing - climate activist based... can you imagine yourself doing that, - climate activist based... can you| imagine yourself doing that, what they did last night, is it an act of courage? i couldn't go in and publicly ruin something~ _ i couldn't go in and publicly ruin something- - -— i couldn't go in and publicly ruin something. . .- i - i couldn't go in and publicly ruin something...- i couldn't something... exactly! i couldn't disru -t something... exactly! i couldn't disrupt the _ something... exactly! i couldn't disrupt the snooker, _ something... exactly! i couldn't disrupt the snooker, i _ something... exactly! i couldn't disrupt the snooker, i think- something... exactly! i couldn't disrupt the snooker, i think not| disrupt the snooker, i think not with— disrupt the snooker, i think not with yellow— disrupt the snooker, i think not with yellow paint _ disrupt the snooker, i think not with yellow paint and _ disrupt the snooker, i think not with yellow paint and things - disrupt the snooker, i think not with yellow paint and things ofl disrupt the snooker, i think not- with yellow paint and things of that nature _ with yellow paint and things of that nature. . . , ., , nature. exactly, it was counter-productive, . nature. exactly, it was - counter-productive, wasn't it? counter—productive, wasn't it? because you annoy to so many people. actually, i watched it, and because you annoy to so many people. actually, iwatched it, and it didn't— actually, iwatched it, and it didn't annoy— actually, iwatched it, and it didn't annoy me. _ actually, i watched it, and it didn't annoy me.— actually, i watched it, and it didn't annoy me. actually, i watched it, and it didn't anno me. ., .,

didn't annoy me. you were not there! but it did didn't annoy me. you were not there! itut it did make _ didn't annoy me. you were not there! but it did make me _ didn't annoy me. you were not there! but it did make me realise, _ didn't annoy me. you were not there! but it did make me realise, as- didn't annoy me. you were not there! but it did make me realise, as a - but it did make me realise, as a viewer, — but it did make me realise, as a viewer, normal— but it did make me realise, as a viewer, normal people - but it did make me realise, as a viewer, normal people are - but it did make me realise, as a| viewer, normal people are doing but it did make me realise, as a - viewer, normal people are doing this because _ viewer, normal people are doing this because they — viewer, normal people are doing this because they are _ viewer, normal people are doing this because they are so _ viewer, normal people are doing this because they are so concerned - viewer, normal people are doing thisj because they are so concerned about what is _ because they are so concerned about what is going — because they are so concerned about what is going on _ because they are so concerned about what is going on. the _ because they are so concerned about what is going on. the fact— because they are so concerned about what is going on. the fact that - what is going on. the fact that local— what is going on. the fact that local government _ what is going on. the fact that local government and - what is going on. the fact that. local government and government what is going on. the fact that - local government and government in westminster— local government and government in westminster are _ local government and government in westminster are doing _ local government and government in westminster are doing absolutely. westminster are doing absolutely nothing. — westminster are doing absolutely nothing. what _ westminster are doing absolutely nothing, what they— westminster are doing absolutely nothing, what they are _ westminster are doing absolutely nothing, what they are doing - westminster are doing absolutely nothing, what they are doing is . nothing, what they are doing is obfuscating _ nothing, what they are doing is obfuscating the _ nothing, what they are doing is obfuscating the true _ nothing, what they are doing is obfuscating the true issue - nothing, what they are doing is obfuscating the true issue andl obfuscating the true issue and pedalling _ obfuscating the true issue and pedalling about— obfuscating the true issue and pedalling about around - obfuscating the true issue and pedalling about around the . obfuscating the true issue and - pedalling about around the edges. they can _ pedalling about around the edges. they can do — pedalling about around the edges. they can do more, _ pedalling about around the edges. they can do more, and _ pedalling about around the edges. they can do more, and i— pedalling about around the edges. i they can do more, and i understand we need _ they can do more, and i understand we need energy. _ they can do more, and i understand we need energy, invest _ they can do more, and i understand we need energy, invest more - they can do more, and i understand we need energy, invest more in - they can do more, and i understand we need energy, invest more in the| we need energy, invest more in the energy— we need energy, invest more in the energy that — we need energy, invest more in the energy that is — we need energy, invest more in the energy that is more _ we need energy, invest more in the energy that is more sustainable. . energy that is more sustainable. stop sponsoring _ energy that is more sustainable. stop sponsoring aviation and - energy that is more sustainable. . stop sponsoring aviation and hiding how much— stop sponsoring aviation and hiding how much pollution _ stop sponsoring aviation and hiding how much pollution comes - stop sponsoring aviation and hiding how much pollution comes down . stop sponsoring aviation and hiding. how much pollution comes down from aircraft! _ how much pollution comes down from aircraft! not— how much pollution comes down from aircraft! not even _ how much pollution comes down from aircraft! not even passenger- aircraft! not even passenger aircraft. _ aircraft! not even passenger aircraft, normal— aircraft! not even passenger aircraft, normal general- aircraft! not even passenger- aircraft, normal general aviation aircraft — aircraft, normal general aviation aircraft which _ aircraft, normal general aviation aircraft which fly _ aircraft, normal general aviation aircraft which fly all _ aircraft, normal general aviation aircraft which fly all over- aircraft, normal general aviation aircraft which fly all over the - aircraft, normal general aviation| aircraft which fly all over the uk, and they— aircraft which fly all over the uk, and they use _ aircraft which fly all over the uk, and they use leaded _ aircraft which fly all over the uk, and they use leaded fuel. - aircraft which fly all over the uk, and they use leaded fuel. we're i aircraft which fly all over the uk, . and they use leaded fuel. we're all going _ and they use leaded fuel. we're all going to _ and they use leaded fuel. we're all going to be — and they use leaded fuel. we're all going to be victims _ and they use leaded fuel. we're all going to be victims of— and they use leaded fuel. we're all going to be victims of pollution, . going to be victims of pollution, reatiy— going to be victims of pollution, really bad — going to be victims of pollution, really bad pollution, _ going to be victims of pollution, really bad pollution, and - going to be victims of pollution, really bad pollution, and in - going to be victims of pollution, really bad pollution, and in ourl really bad pollution, and in our area _ really bad pollution, and in our area alone _ really bad pollution, and in our area alone, according - really bad pollution, and in our area alone, according to - really bad pollution, and in our area alone, according to a - really bad pollution, and in our. area alone, according to a county council. — area alone, according to a county council, pollution _ area alone, according to a county council, pollution levels - area alone, according to a county council, pollution levels have - council, pollution levels have increased _ council, pollution levels have increased as _ council, pollution levels have increased as a _

council, pollution levels have increased as a result - council, pollution levels have increased as a result of... - council, pollution levels have increased as a result of... some ve , increased as a result of... some very. very _ increased as a result of... some very, very powerful _ increased as a result of... some very, very powerful points, - increased as a result of... some | very, very powerful points, thank you for your contribution. we are going to go over to the snooker on bbc two, and we are continuing this conversation on bbc news, the iplayer, bbc sounds and bbc radio 5 live. and watching the snooker on bbc two, out of this into the snooker, what i segue, sorry to interrupt you, carry on! that snooker, what i segue, sorry to interrupt you, carry on!- interrupt you, carry on! that is absolutely _ interrupt you, carry on! that is absolutely fine! _ interrupt you, carry on! that is absolutely fine! i _ interrupt you, carry on! that is absolutely fine! i do _ interrupt you, carry on! that is absolutely fine! i do support . interrupt you, carry on! that is . absolutely fine! i do support what they are _ absolutely fine! i do support what they are doing. _ absolutely fine! i do support what they are doing, but _ absolutely fine! i do support what they are doing, but i— absolutely fine! i do support what they are doing, but i don't- absolutely fine! i do support what they are doing, but i don't like . they are doing, but i don't like their— they are doing, but i don't like their tactics— they are doing, but i don't like their tactics particularly, - they are doing, but i don't like their tactics particularly, but. they are doing, but i don't like their tactics particularly, but ii their tactics particularly, but i think— their tactics particularly, but i think that _ their tactics particularly, but i think that oil _ their tactics particularly, but i think that oil based _ their tactics particularly, but i think that oil based transport| their tactics particularly, but i- think that oil based transport and emissions, — think that oil based transport and emissions, anything _ think that oil based transport and emissions, anything that- think that oil based transport and emissions, anything that is- think that oil based transport and emissions, anything that is fossil| emissions, anything that is fossil fuel based — emissions, anything that is fossil fuel based has _ emissions, anything that is fossil fuel based has to _ emissions, anything that is fossil fuel based has to be _ emissions, anything that is fossil fuel based has to be addressed. i emissions, anything that is fossil. fuel based has to be addressed. and sponsoring _ fuel based has to be addressed. and sponsoring local _ fuel based has to be addressed. and sponsoring local projects _ fuel based has to be addressed. and sponsoring local projects anywhere i sponsoring local projects anywhere in the _ sponsoring local projects anywhere in the country. _ sponsoring local projects anywhere in the country, which _ sponsoring local projects anywhere in the country, which mean - sponsoring local projects anywhere in the country, which mean that. sponsoring local projects anywherel in the country, which mean that you -et in the country, which mean that you get more _ in the country, which mean that you get more pollution _ in the country, which mean that you get more pollution and _ in the country, which mean that you get more pollution and more - in the country, which mean that you get more pollution and more oil- get more pollution and more oil used, _ get more pollution and more oil used. that— get more pollution and more oil used, that isn't— get more pollution and more oil used, that isn't acceptable, - get more pollution and more oil used, that isn't acceptable, andj used, that isn't acceptable, and councils— used, that isn't acceptable, and councils need _

used, that isn't acceptable, and councils need to _ used, that isn't acceptable, and councils need to realise - used, that isn't acceptable, and councils need to realise and - councils need to realise and government— councils need to realise and government needs - councils need to realise and government needs to - councils need to realise and i government needs to realise councils need to realise and - government needs to realise that this is— government needs to realise that this is not— government needs to realise that this is not right. _ government needs to realise that this is not right.— government needs to realise that this is not right. thank you, thank ou all this is not right. thank you, thank you all very _ this is not right. thank you, thank you all very much _ this is not right. thank you, thank you all very much indeed - this is not right. thank you, thank you all very much indeed for - this is not right. thank you, thank you all very much indeed for your| you all very much indeed for your comments on that. you can get to us on the phone, text and social media. race and pregnancy: your stories. we're talking about it because a report from a group of mps says not enough's happening to tackle some appalling statistics. black women are nearly four times more likely than white women to die within six weeks of giving birth, asian women nearly twice as likely. why? what the heck is going on here? the women & equalities committee says the nhs has underestimated racism. there's a shortage of staff.

and women from minority ethnic backgrounds feel they're not being listened to or understood. we want to hear your experience this morning. if you're black, if you're asian, what was it like when you were pregnant, when you gave birth, when you were recovering? what did you witness, what did you perceive when you were in a maternity ward, when you were in a perinatal period. all your stories are welcome. nhs england says it's committed to making maternity care safer for all women. the government says it's increasing investment in maternity and midwifery. is it doing thejob? all about you for the next hour, race and pregnancy: your stories. please get in touch with us.

dan brennan has the news. thank you and good morning. the snp's treasurer colin beattie has been arrested by police investigating the party's finances. it comes two weeks after peter murrell, the snp's former chief executive, who's married to nicola sturgeon, was also arrested. he was released without charge pending further inquiries. the energy regulator, 0fgem, has announced a ban on the forced instalment of pre—payment meters for all those over the age of 85. it'll also apply to customers with a terminal illness or those with a condition that could be made worse by a cold home. official figures show there's been a slight rise in uk unemployment. in the three months to february, the number of people looking for work rose by about 220,000. the number of vacancies fell by nearly 50,000.

mps have called on ministers to do more to end what they call the "appalling" disparity in deaths during pregnancy and childbirth between black, asian and white women. the department of health says it's focused on improving outcomes for all mothers. morning and welcome if you have just joined us, it is mystifying to some people, what is going on and many are arguing racism is at the heart of it, is it socioeconomics? cultural misunderstandings? black women are nearly four times more likely than white women to die within six weeks of giving birth, asian women nearly twice as likely. a new report looking at why and what needs to be done. we want to hear from you and your experiences. professor marion knight whose work identified these discrepancies. good

morning and welcome. and margaret in south—east london, we will be with you shortly, and doctor faye bruce chair of the caribbean and african health organisation, a network seeking to address health inequalities, thank you forjoining us. inequalities, thank you for 'oining us, �* ., ., inequalities, thank you for 'oining us. ~ . . , ., inequalities, thank you for 'oining us. margaret, your experience? it doesnt us. margaret, your experience? it doesn't surprise _ us. margaret, your experience? it doesn't surprise me, _ us. margaret, your experience? it doesn't surprise me, if— us. margaret, your experience? it doesn't surprise me, if i _ us. margaret, your experience? it doesn't surprise me, if i am - us. margaret, your experience? it i doesn't surprise me, if! am honest, doesn't surprise me, if i am honest, the main issues and problems is the lack of after—care. i can use myself as an example. i gave birth when i was 22 to my first child, never had any education or given birth, anything such as that. the moment i went into labour i was actually sitting in the hospital bed by myself, my mum and my partner at the time were outside, they went to go and get food and i was left there by myself not knowing i was going into labour. the midwife walked in,

didn't do anything and i told her i could feel the head of the baby coming out and she walked straight out. literally came back ten minutes later and she was like push, now, i can see the baby is out, horrific experience at the age of 22. gave birth literally within five minutes and i would have been left to my own devices are 22 with no pastor prior education on how to give birth by myself. my mum came in, absolutely livid, the after—care was not any better. i was supposed to go for a three month checkup, as you may or may not know, when you give birth in the uk you have what they call a three month checkup, a postnatal... i remember, i remember! mr; i remember, i remember! ij�*i appointment i remember, i remember! m1: appointment was i remember, i remember! m1 appointment was cancelled and when i go to my three month checkup which ended up being four months, i was

pregnant, again, no education on follow—up treatment, any precipitation to having sex after giving birth, nothing. so i was pregnant, again. i did not even know, i thought at 22, giving birth, your body was actually less likely to give birth because i had red some things about breast—feeding after pregnancy and all this and that but these are old wives tales and you are a more fertile after giving birth, actually and i was already pregnant with my daughter. i had no idea until i got to the checkup and the education they were supposed to give me which was to go on birth control, unfortunately was a little bit too late! that was so my daughter came into the world, literally, my son and my daughter are 12 months apart. and a week apart. so yes, no after—care, no apology from the midwives —— we had

an apology from the midwives. my partner was fuming, everybody was fuming. partner was fuming, everybody was fumint. ~ ., .,, partner was fuming, everybody was fumint. ~ . ., ., partner was fuming, everybody was fumin.. ~ . ., ., ., , fuming. what was her manner towards ou, how fuming. what was her manner towards you. how did — fuming. what was her manner towards you. how did she _ fuming. what was her manner towards you, how did she treat _ fuming. what was her manner towards you, how did she treat and _ fuming. what was her manner towards you, how did she treat and approach . you, how did she treat and approach you, how did she treat and approach you and talk to you?— you and talk to you? completely nonchalant. _ you and talk to you? completely nonchalant, like _ you and talk to you? completely nonchalant, like they _ you and talk to you? completely nonchalant, like they hadn't - you and talk to you? completely l nonchalant, like they hadn't done anything wrong. it was like you are supposed to get on with that, what are you complaining about? which is quite shocking. at 22. 23 with my daughter. very shocking. i was not your average 22—year—old, i was very naive because i had lived with my parents my entire life and i was not the most streetsmart at 22 or 23. i did not have that kind of knowledge and stuff like that so i was anticipating a lot more follow—up, one—to—one follow—up but nothing, completely nonchalant, the midwife was terrible, they switched me out

to a nigerian midwife and she was absolutely lovely. she took care of me, was livid, put in a complaint for me. ifollowed me all the me, was livid, put in a complaint for me. i followed me all the way through until my daughter was eight years old. through until my daughter was eight ears old. a ., through until my daughter was eight ears old. n, . ._ , through until my daughter was eight ears old. a, . .,y , , years old. margaret, maybe the first one it could — years old. margaret, maybe the first one it could be _ years old. margaret, maybe the first one it could be suggested _ years old. margaret, maybe the first one it could be suggested was - years old. margaret, maybe the first one it could be suggested was not i one it could be suggested was not very good at herjob and that was it? i very good at her 'ob and that was it? ., ., , , , it? i do not believe everything is necessarily _ it? i do not believe everything is necessarily racism _ it? i do not believe everything is necessarily racism but _ it? i do not believe everything is necessarily racism but i - it? i do not believe everything is necessarily racism but i do - it? i do not believe everything is necessarily racism but i do feel. necessarily racism but i do feel like there are some elements to after—care and how you are treated in hospital and also your follow—up and after—care so the midwife that gave birth to my child was a caucasian lady and the midwife that did the follow—up initially with me before i was transferred to the nigerian lady was caucasian as well so both of them at the same nonchalant attitude of get on with it. and they were both not interested in the follow—up or

after—care or anything, it was like, we are really sorry but, you know, get on with it as the nigerian lady, i thought that is how the whole system worked and the nigerian lady was livid, she came in and filed a complaint against the first midwife, initially. and apparently she was transferred out. then take action, came in and literally followed me up every two or three weeks she was at my house. and i haven't even had anybody come, the midwife did not even call me to apologise. tats anybody come, the midwife did not even call me to apologise. tags it even call me to apologise. as it should have _ even call me to apologise. as it should have been. _ even call me to apologise. as it should have been. professor marian knight, you have looked at this and analysed it, why is this according to the statistics happening disproportionately to black women? i think part of the problem and the reason _ think part of the problem and the reason this continues to be a persisting problem in not necessarily being tackled is that i do not _ necessarily being tackled is that i do not have an easy answer. there

are some — do not have an easy answer. there are some things we do know, we know it is not— are some things we do know, we know it is not that _ are some things we do know, we know it is not that women from different ethnic— it is not that women from different ethnic groups or dying from different courses so we know the leading _ different courses so we know the leading cause of death during pregnancy or in that post natal six weeks _ pregnancy or in that post natal six weeks is _ pregnancy or in that post natal six weeks is hard disease. therein lies perhaps— weeks is hard disease. therein lies perhaps part of the problem in that women _ perhaps part of the problem in that women are — perhaps part of the problem in that women are not dying during childbirth but from medical and mental— childbirth but from medical and mental health complications by and large _ mental health complications by and large the — mental health complications by and large. the severity is not necessarily recognised. it's really important — necessarily recognised. it's really important to actually listen to women — important to actually listen to women and to understand when they are expressing concerning symptoms. and we _ are expressing concerning symptoms. and we have just heard really graphically when you are not listened _ graphically when you are not listened to how it really impacts on your care _ listened to how it really impacts on your care and we know that women from _ your care and we know that women from black— your care and we know that women from black and other minority groups as you _ from black and other minority groups as you mentioned in your introduction do not feel they are listened — introduction do not feel they are listened to, do not feel they are

provided — listened to, do not feel they are provided with information they need to make _ provided with information they need to make decisions about pregnancy and we _ to make decisions about pregnancy and we recognise how important that is. | and we recognise how important that is. ., ., , ., , ., and we recognise how important that is. i want to try and understand why it is happening _ is. i want to try and understand why it is happening and _ is. i want to try and understand why it is happening and you _ is. i want to try and understand why it is happening and you understandl it is happening and you understand we do not fully know or understand but what are the factors? if you were to slice at a different way, how much of it will be socioeconomic? i how much of it will be socioeconomic? ., , . , socioeconomic? i cannot slice it up for ou socioeconomic? i cannot slice it up for you but — socioeconomic? i cannot slice it up for you but i _ socioeconomic? i cannot slice it up for you but i can — socioeconomic? i cannot slice it up for you but i can say _ socioeconomic? i cannot slice it up for you but i can say these - for you but i can say these inequalities persist, these differences between black women and asian women and white women persist even when _ asian women and white women persist even when we take into account socio- _ even when we take into account socio— economic status so we cannot say this— socio— economic status so we cannot say this is— socio— economic status so we cannot say this is all— socio— economic status so we cannot say this is all socio— economic. there — say this is all socio— economic. there are — say this is all socio— economic. there are some things we don't know so we _ there are some things we don't know so we know— there are some things we don't know so we know that the black women who die are _ so we know that the black women who die are less— so we know that the black women who die are less likely than white and asian _ die are less likely than white and asian women who die to have the individualised care they need because _ individualised care they need because we know that the women who

die have _ because we know that the women who die have multiple and complex problems. so we know for example that care _ problems. so we know for example that care is — problems. so we know for example that care is important before pregnancy, during pregnancy and after— pregnancy, during pregnancy and after pregnancy so we are not just talking _ after pregnancy so we are not just talking about midwives and during pregnancy, we need to think about all of— pregnancy, we need to think about all of the _ pregnancy, we need to think about all of the other professional groups from gps _ all of the other professional groups from gps to health visitors and emergency doctors in between. we have to _ emergency doctors in between. we have to think much more broadly than maternity— have to think much more broadly than maternity services to begin to tackle — maternity services to begin to tackle this and again that might be a reason _ tackle this and again that might be a reason why these disparities are still persisting despite having been documented for many years. one of the thins documented for many years. one of the things pinpointed _ documented for many years. one of the things pinpointed was _ documented for many years. one of the things pinpointed was a - documented for many years. one of the things pinpointed was a general| the things pinpointed was a general lack of training to recognise health conditions in women with darker skin. and the fact a lot of medical textbooks only feature white women and white babies, expand on that. that is extremely important. i

obviously— that is extremely important. i obviously trained a long time ago and that— obviously trained a long time ago and that training certainly was not there _ and that training certainly was not there for— and that training certainly was not there for me. the training is there now but— there for me. the training is there now but we — there for me. the training is there now but we still need to make sure that is— now but we still need to make sure that is enhanced. it includes cultural— that is enhanced. it includes cultural elements as well, when we are thinking about advising women on diet. are thinking about advising women on diet we _ are thinking about advising women on diet. we need to make sure that kind of advice _ diet. we need to make sure that kind of advice is _ diet. we need to make sure that kind of advice is also culturally appropriate. we need to recognise the impact of different cultures on stigma _ the impact of different cultures on stigma and ability for women to talk about— stigma and ability for women to talk about mental health problems for example — about mental health problems for example. and we need to recognise that really_ example. and we need to recognise that really needs to be individualised.- that really needs to be individualised. . , , .~' that really needs to be individualised. . , , , individualised. can i 'ust pick up on that, individualised. can i 'ust pick up on that. the h individualised. can ijust pick up on that, the openness - individualised. can ijust pick up on that, the openness and - individualised. can ijust pick up l on that, the openness and ability, the candour, the recognition of mental health issues and the confidence and the ability and cultural acceptance of talking about them to each other, that are so interesting. them to each other, that are so interesting-— them to each other, that are so interestint. ., . ,

interesting. more on that, please. absolutely crucially _ interesting. more on that, please. absolutely crucially important, . absolutely crucially important, mental — absolutely crucially important, mental health is seen as important as physical— mental health is seen as important as physical health problems. and that there — as physical health problems. and that there is, the parity that meet recognise — that there is, the parity that meet recognise, in around 10% of women in the postnatal period will have a mental — the postnatal period will have a mental health problem and we have to recognise _ mental health problem and we have to recognise that we need to act on those _ recognise that we need to act on those as— recognise that we need to act on those as we do for physical problems, the mind changes as a consequence of pregnancy as well as the body— consequence of pregnancy as well as the body and being able to disclose those _ the body and being able to disclose those problems, be able to talk to them _ those problems, be able to talk to them openly and honestly it's really important _ them openly and honestly it's really important and when we are thinking about— important and when we are thinking about for— important and when we are thinking about for example having to do those in the _ about for example having to do those in the presence of an interpreter, we use _ in the presence of an interpreter, we use very— in the presence of an interpreter, we use very different language when we use very different language when we are _ we use very different language when we are talking about our mental health— we are talking about our mental health when we are coming from different— health when we are coming from different cultures but we do not necessarily as professionals always recognise _ necessarily as professionals always recognise the different signals.

it's a _ recognise the different signals. it's a big — recognise the different signals. it's a big challenge for professions, isn't it and i know you have to go in a minute. there is a massive learning curve for many people? it massive learning curve for many --eole? . ., massive learning curve for many teo tle? , ., , massive learning curve for many --eole? , . ., ., people? it is a big challenge for professionals _ people? it is a big challenge for professionals but _ people? it is a big challenge for professionals but that _ people? it is a big challenge for professionals but that doesn't i people? it is a big challenge for. professionals but that doesn't mean it's something we should not tackle. what is _ it's something we should not tackle. what is important is there will be different— what is important is there will be different solutions that are right for the — different solutions that are right for the women that you are caring for the women that you are caring for in _ for the women that you are caring for in different parts of the country— for in different parts of the country because we have talked here about _ country because we have talked here about black women. we know every black— about black women. we know every black woman is different. if you are a recent— black woman is different. if you are a recent migrant from somalia you will have _ a recent migrant from somalia you will have very different health needs — will have very different health needs and different approaches needed — needs and different approaches needed from a third generation woman from a _ needed from a third generation woman from a nigerian background, for example — from a nigerian background, for example. and we need to recognise as health— example. and we need to recognise as health professionals who are the groups— health professionals who are the groups of— health professionals who are the groups of women we are caring for and what _ groups of women we are caring for and what individualised treatment, where _ and what individualised treatment, where it— and what individualised treatment, where it should we target the training? _ where it should we target the trainin: ? ., .. where it should we target the trainin: ? ., ,, i. , where it should we target the trainin: ? ., ,, ,, , .

training? thank you very much. i know you — training? thank you very much. i know you are _ training? thank you very much. i know you are still— training? thank you very much. i know you are still there, - training? thank you very much. i i know you are still there, margaret, let's hear another experience, and doctor faye bruce, i will be with you presently necking in milton keynes, good morning. good morning. how are you? share your experience with us, talk to margaret, talk to all of us. a ., with us, talk to margaret, talk to all of us. a, ., ., with us, talk to margaret, talk to all of us. ., ., ., ., all of us. margaret, hello. i had a ositive all of us. margaret, hello. i had a positive experience _ all of us. margaret, hello. i had a positive experience with - all of us. margaret, hello. i had a positive experience with all- all of us. margaret, hello. i had a positive experience with all three | positive experience with all three of my childbirths so i had my first child at the age of 23, going back 23 years, really great experience and my midwife was asian. i was lucky to have had the midwife deliver me that i had seen all through my pregnancy and i had a positive experience and that was in northamptonshire, my oldest daughter was born. my two other kids were born in london and i simply selected the hospital i wanted them to be born which was ucl in houston that mike easton and i had a positive

experience. and my maternity appointments, everything was quite positive. —— used in. 0ne one of the things in the report, it's brilliant to hear that, 23 years ago, i bet it feels like yesterday as well! one of the things it highlights is cultural or language barriers and a lack of representation amongst medical staff, people might read that and think, this is such a wonderful ethnic mix of people working in the nhs so how can that be?— nhs so how can that be? yeah, i atree. nhs so how can that be? yeah, i agree- having — nhs so how can that be? yeah, i agree- having my _ nhs so how can that be? yeah, i agree. having my kids _ nhs so how can that be? yeah, i agree. having my kids in - nhs so how can that be? yeah, i agree. having my kids in london| nhs so how can that be? yeah, i. agree. having my kids in london was very different to having my oldest daughter in northamptonshire, london was much more cultural and a lot of the midwives were black at the hospital that i had my two younger ones out. i'm not sure if that makes the difference or not. for me,

people that looked like me, when i gave birth to my children in london was a very different experience to when i had my oldest child in northamptonshire where it is much less multicultural.— less multicultural. margaret, pick u i less multicultural. margaret, pick u- on that less multicultural. margaret, pick up on that point, _ less multicultural. margaret, pick up on that point, the _ less multicultural. margaret, pick up on that point, the ethnic- less multicultural. margaret, pick up on that point, the ethnic mix i less multicultural. margaret, pick| up on that point, the ethnic mix of people working in the nhs. the ruestion i people working in the nhs. the question i want to ask you was you had a _ question i want to ask you was you had a great — question i want to ask you was you had a great experience _ question i want to ask you was you had a great experience with - question i want to ask you was you i had a great experience with midwives that look— had a great experience with midwives that look like — had a great experience with midwives that look like yourself— had a great experience with midwives that look like yourself and _ that look like yourself and obviously _ that look like yourself and obviously more _ that look like yourself and obviously more ethnic - that look like yourself and - obviously more ethnic backgrounds. don't _ obviously more ethnic backgrounds. don't you _ obviously more ethnic backgrounds. don't you think _ obviously more ethnic backgrounds. don't you think that _ obviously more ethnic backgrounds. don't you think that your _ obviously more ethnic backgrounds. j don't you think that your experience necessarily— don't you think that your experience necessarily would _ don't you think that your experience necessarily would have _ don't you think that your experience necessarily would have changed - don't you think that your experience necessarily would have changed if. don't you think that your experience necessarily would have changed if it| necessarily would have changed if it was a _ necessarily would have changed if it was a caucasian? _ necessarily would have changed if it was a caucasian? i— necessarily would have changed if it was a caucasian? i come _ necessarily would have changed if it was a caucasian? i come from - necessarily would have changed if it was a caucasian? i come from an. necessarily would have changed if it i was a caucasian? i come from an area that was a caucasian? ! come from an area that is— was a caucasian? ! come from an area that is predominantly— was a caucasian? i come from an area that is predominantly white. - was a caucasian? i come from an area that is predominantly white. and - that is predominantly white. and because — that is predominantly white. and because of— that is predominantly white. and because of that _ that is predominantly white. and because of that reason, - that is predominantly white. and because of that reason, the - because of that reason, the hospitals _ because of that reason, the hospitals in _ because of that reason, the hospitals in my— because of that reason, the hospitals in my area - because of that reason, the hospitals in my area are - because of that reason, the i hospitals in my area are going because of that reason, the - hospitals in my area are going to have _ hospitals in my area are going to have dominantly— hospitals in my area are going to have dominantly more _ hospitals in my area are going to have dominantly more caucasianj have dominantly more caucasian midwives — have dominantly more caucasian midwives i_ have dominantly more caucasian midwives ido— have dominantly more caucasian midwives. i do not _ have dominantly more caucasian midwives. i do not necessarily. have dominantly more caucasian. midwives. i do not necessarily and i am not _ midwives. i do not necessarily and i am not going — midwives. ! do not necessarily and i am not going to— midwives. ! do not necessarily and i am not going to pinpoint— midwives. i do not necessarily and i am not going to pinpoint that - midwives. ! do not necessarily and i am not going to pinpoint that it- midwives. i do not necessarily and i am not going to pinpoint that it is. am not going to pinpoint that it is necessarily— am not going to pinpoint that it is necessarily racism _ am not going to pinpoint that it is necessarily racism because - am not going to pinpoint that it is necessarily racism because i- am not going to pinpoint that it is necessarily racism because i do i am not going to pinpoint that it is. necessarily racism because i do not think— necessarily racism because i do not think it _ necessarily racism because i do not think it is _ necessarily racism because i do not think it is but — necessarily racism because i do not think it is but i _ necessarily racism because i do not think it is but i do _ necessarily racism because i do not think it is but i do think— necessarily racism because i do not think it is but i do think it _ necessarily racism because i do not

think it is but i do think it is - think it is but i do think it is possibly— think it is but i do think it is possibly just _ think it is but i do think it is possiblyjust not _ think it is but i do think it is - possiblyjust not understanding how to deat— possiblyjust not understanding how to deal with — possiblyjust not understanding how to deal with certain _ possiblyjust not understanding how to deal with certain types _ possiblyjust not understanding how to deal with certain types of- possiblyjust not understanding how to deal with certain types of womenj to deal with certain types of women as was— to deal with certain types of women as was told — to deal with certain types of women as was told before _ to deal with certain types of women as was told before prior. _ to deal with certain types of women as was told before prior. in - to deal with certain types of women as was told before prior.— as was told before prior. in terms of how you _ as was told before prior. in terms of how you trim — as was told before prior. in terms of how you trim a _ as was told before prior. in terms of how you trim a caucasian - of how you trim a caucasian midwives, many might be listening this morning, the vast majority of whom are absolutely fantastic. yes and i have worked in a hospital before — and i have worked in a hospital before so— and i have worked in a hospital before so i— and i have worked in a hospital before so i did _ and i have worked in a hospital before so i did not _ and i have worked in a hospital before so i did not doubt - and i have worked in a hospital before so i did not doubt the i and i have worked in a hospital- before so i did not doubt the amount of passion _ before so i did not doubt the amount of passion and — before so i did not doubt the amount of passion and work _ before so i did not doubt the amount of passion and work that _ before so i did not doubt the amount of passion and work that goes - before so i did not doubt the amount of passion and work that goes into i of passion and work that goes into working _ of passion and work that goes into working into — of passion and work that goes into working into the _ of passion and work that goes into working into the hospital- of passion and work that goes into working into the hospital at - of passion and work that goes into working into the hospital at all. . of passion and work that goes into working into the hospital at all. i. working into the hospital at all. i do not _ working into the hospital at all. i do not want _ working into the hospital at all. i do not want them _ working into the hospital at all. i do not want them to _ working into the hospital at all. i. do not want them to misunderstand me. do not want them to misunderstand me but _ do not want them to misunderstand me but i _ do not want them to misunderstand me but i do — do not want them to misunderstand me. but i do feel— do not want them to misunderstand me. but i do feel as _ do not want them to misunderstand me. but i do feel as was _ do not want them to misunderstand me. but i do feel as was said - me. but i do feel as was said before — me. but i do feel as was said before the _ me. but i do feel as was said before, the cultural- me. but i do feel as was said . before, the cultural differences, me. but i do feel as was said - before, the cultural differences, so in a sense — before, the cultural differences, so in a sense, sometimes _ before, the cultural differences, so in a sense, sometimes you - before, the cultural differences, so in a sense, sometimes you may. before, the cultural differences, so| in a sense, sometimes you may not necessarily— in a sense, sometimes you may not necessarily know— in a sense, sometimes you may not necessarily know how— in a sense, sometimes you may not necessarily know how to _ in a sense, sometimes you may not necessarily know how to follow - in a sense, sometimes you may not necessarily know how to follow up i necessarily know how to follow up with certain — necessarily know how to follow up with certain people _ necessarily know how to follow up with certain people not— necessarily know how to follow up with certain people not because i necessarily know how to follow up i with certain people not because you are racist— with certain people not because you are racist but— with certain people not because you are racist but because _ with certain people not because you are racist but because you - with certain people not because you are racist but because you do- with certain people not because you are racist but because you do not. are racist but because you do not have _ are racist but because you do not have the — are racist but because you do not have the right _ are racist but because you do not have the right education - are racist but because you do not have the right education on - are racist but because you do not have the right education on howl are racist but because you do not. have the right education on how to do so _ have the right education on how to do so because _ have the right education on how to do so because it _ have the right education on how to do so because it is _ have the right education on how to do so because it is not _ have the right education on how to do so because it is not necessarilyl do so because it is not necessarily an environment _ do so because it is not necessarily an environment or— do so because it is not necessarily an environment or a _ do so because it is not necessarily an environment or a culture - do so because it is not necessarily an environment or a culture that i do so because it is not necessarily. an environment or a culture that you are attuned — an environment or a culture that you are attuned to — an environment or a culture that you are attuned to so _ an environment or a culture that you are attuned to so it _ an environment or a culture that you are attuned to so it could _ an environment or a culture that you are attuned to so it could just - an environment or a culture that you are attuned to so it could just be - are attuned to so it could just be getting _ are attuned to so it could just be getting more _ are attuned to so it could just be getting more education- are attuned to so it could just be| getting more education especially are attuned to so it could just be - getting more education especially in areas. _ getting more education especially in areas. i— getting more education especially in areas. i would — getting more education especially in areas, i would love _

getting more education especially in areas, i would love to _ getting more education especially in areas, i would love to know- getting more education especially in areas, i would love to know the - areas, i would love to know the statistics — areas, i would love to know the statistics as _ areas, i would love to know the statistics as well— areas, i would love to know the statistics as well because - areas, i would love to know the statistics as well because if- areas, i would love to know the statistics as well because if we i areas, i would love to know the . statistics as well because if we can find out _ statistics as well because if we can find out the — statistics as well because if we can find out the statistics _ statistics as well because if we can find out the statistics of— statistics as well because if we can find out the statistics of what - find out the statistics of what areas — find out the statistics of what areas that _ find out the statistics of what areas that those _ find out the statistics of what areas that those black - find out the statistics of whati areas that those black women find out the statistics of what - areas that those black women are dying _ areas that those black women are dying in. — areas that those black women are dying in, predominantly— areas that those black women are dying in, predominantly areas - areas that those black women are i dying in, predominantly areas where most _ dying in, predominantly areas where most of— dying in, predominantly areas where most of the — dying in, predominantly areas where most of the black— dying in, predominantly areas where most of the black women _ dying in, predominantly areas where most of the black women are - dying in, predominantly areas where most of the black women are in - dying in, predominantly areas wherel most of the black women are in more caucasian _ most of the black women are in more caucasian areas — most of the black women are in more caucasian areas or— most of the black women are in more caucasian areas or predominantly- caucasian areas or predominantly caucasian — caucasian areas or predominantly caucasian areas _ caucasian areas or predominantly caucasian areas or— caucasian areas or predominantly caucasian areas or are _ caucasian areas or predominantly caucasian areas or are they- caucasian areas or predominantly caucasian areas or are they dying j caucasian areas or predominantly. caucasian areas or are they dying in areas _ caucasian areas or are they dying in areas that— caucasian areas or are they dying in areas that are — caucasian areas or are they dying in areas that are more _ caucasian areas or are they dying in areas that are more multicultural i areas that are more multicultural background? _ areas that are more multicultural background?— background? generally speaking de - rivation background? generally speaking deprivation is _ background? generally speaking deprivation is massively - background? generally speaking i deprivation is massively important here and significant, looking at the report which found maternal death rates in deprived areas or on the rise with women in the most deprived areas to .5 times more likely to die and a lot of ethnic minorities disproportionately this presented —— misrepresented in those areas. nicky, what did you think about that? in nicky, what did you think about that? , nicky, what did you think about that? 1 ., , ., nicky, what did you think about that? , ., , ., ~ nicky, what did you think about that? , .,, ., ~ ., nicky, what did you think about that? 1 ., ~ ., that? in my opinion i think to some extent class — that? in my opinion i think to some extent class place _ that? in my opinion i think to some extent class place a _ that? in my opinion i think to some

extent class place a lot _ that? in my opinion i think to some extent class place a lot of - that? in my opinion i think to some extent class place a lot of a - that? in my opinion i think to some extent class place a lot of a big - extent class place a lot of a big role in how these women of colour are having these negative experiences. my daughter was born in a town called kettering at the general hospital. not necessarily a deprived area. my two kids were born at ucl in central london and i think that makes such a big difference, for instance i was warned not to go to specific hospitals that i would have been allocated to if i had not chosen to have my kids at ucl and i chosen to have my kids at ucl and i chose ucl because of the positive feedback i had and other people's experiences. were some of the other hospitals i would naturally have been allocated to by the nhs were in deprived areas and i think that makes a difference. i deprived areas and i think that makes a difference.— deprived areas and i think that makes a difference. i tell you what, for: ive makes a difference. i tell you what, forgive me. — makes a difference. i tell you what, forgive me. faye — makes a difference. i tell you what, forgive me, faye bruce, _ makes a difference. i tell you what, forgive me, faye bruce, another. forgive me, faye bruce, another caller, maxine in ashford, listening to this with great interest. given

your own experience, an experience that has been sure to one extent or another by so many women. what do you think about what you are hearing? i you think about what you are hearin: ? ., you think about what you are hearin: ? . ., you think about what you are hearin: ? ., ., . hearing? i have had three children, or three of — hearing? i have had three children, or three of mine _ hearing? i have had three children, or three of mine were _ hearing? i have had three children, or three of mine were born - hearing? i have had three children, or three of mine were born in - hearing? i have had three children, j or three of mine were born in south london~ _ or three of mine were born in south london~ i— or three of mine were born in south london~ i am — or three of mine were born in south london. i am 55 now, i imagine a lot of things— london. i am 55 now, i imagine a lot of things have changed. my point is with my— of things have changed. my point is with my second child, i was in for a bed rest, _ with my second child, i was in for a bed rest, in— with my second child, i was in for a bed rest, in a— with my second child, i was in for a bed rest, in a room, there were six of us _ bed rest, in a room, there were six of us and _ bed rest, in a room, there were six of us and the — bed rest, in a room, there were six of us and the young lady in the bed next to— of us and the young lady in the bed next to me — of us and the young lady in the bed next to me was black. it was her first baby — next to me was black. it was her first baby. 0ne next to me was black. it was her first baby. one night she started complaining that she thought she was in labour. _ complaining that she thought she was in labour, the midwife came in and they sought — in labour, the midwife came in and they sought to her and said no, you are fine _ they sought to her and said no, you are fine. anyway, the night progressed and she got progressively more distressed to the point where i tot more distressed to the point where i got out _ more distressed to the point where i got out of— more distressed to the point where i got out of bed and went to her. and i could _ got out of bed and went to her. and i could see — got out of bed and went to her. and i could see i— got out of bed and went to her. and i could see, i tried to help calm her breathing, to calm her down and she said _

her breathing, to calm her down and she said i— her breathing, to calm her down and she said i want to push so at that point, _ she said i want to push so at that point, i— she said i want to push so at that point, i asked she said i want to push so at that point, iasked her, do you mind if! have _ point, iasked her, do you mind if! have had _ point, iasked her, do you mind if! have had a — point, iasked her, do you mind if! have had a quick feel and i did this and i— have had a quick feel and i did this and i could — have had a quick feel and i did this and i could feel there was a belt so i assumed — and i could feel there was a belt so i assumed it was the head crowning. at this _ i assumed it was the head crowning. at this point, she had only been given— at this point, she had only been given paracetamol so i went back out to the _ given paracetamol so i went back out to the midwife station and i said, she is— to the midwife station and i said, she is in— to the midwife station and i said, she is in labour, she is about to give _ she is in labour, she is about to give birth— she is in labour, she is about to give birth and they all came in and the next _ give birth and they all came in and the next thing she was whipped out of the _ the next thing she was whipped out of the room. but my point is the midwives— of the room. but my point is the midwives that were on shift that night, _ midwives that were on shift that night, dealing with this lady, they were _ night, dealing with this lady, they were black. 50 night, dealing with this lady, they were black. , , , . were black. so this is incompetence and complacency — were black. so this is incompetence and complacency and _ were black. so this is incompetence and complacency and not _ were black. so this is incompetence and complacency and not racism? i | and complacency and not racism? i mean, from what i have been listening _ mean, from what i have been listening to on the show this morning. _ listening to on the show this morning, race seems to be playing a bil morning, race seems to be playing a big part. _ morning, race seems to be playing a big part. in _ morning, race seems to be playing a big part, in otherwords, white midwife — big part, in otherwords, white midwife, black lady in labour but my experience _ midwife, black lady in labour but my experience was the complete opposite. as i say, i have had three

children. _ opposite. as i say, i have had three children. all— opposite. as i say, i have had three children, all three delivered by black— children, all three delivered by black midwives and at the point of giving _ black midwives and at the point of giving birth i had exceptional care by the _ giving birth i had exceptional care by the black midwives, in fact the third _ by the black midwives, in fact the third lady— by the black midwives, in fact the third lady with my third baby, she stayed _ third lady with my third baby, she stayed pasture shift because she had been with— stayed pasture shift because she had been with me the start and she said i am not _ been with me the start and she said i am not stepping out of this room how. _ i am not stepping out of this room now. we _ i am not stepping out of this room now. we are — i am not stepping out of this room now, we are going to get this baby born tonight and all three of them were _ born tonight and all three of them were fantastic. this isn'tjust white — were fantastic. this isn'tjust white midwives with black ladies who are in— white midwives with black ladies who are in labour. this is, there were four— are in labour. this is, there were four black— are in labour. this is, there were four black midwives on shift that evening — four black midwives on shift that evening and they all came in and told her— evening and they all came in and told her to— evening and they all came in and told her to stop making a fuss, she is not _ told her to stop making a fuss, she is not in _ told her to stop making a fuss, she is not in labour, go to sleep, take paracetamol. find is not in labour, go to sleep, take paracetamol-— is not in labour, go to sleep, take aracetamol. . , . , ., ~ paracetamol. and she was left. thank ou for paracetamol. and she was left. thank you for your — paracetamol. and she was left. thank you for your intervention _ paracetamol. and she was left. thank you for your intervention and - you for your intervention and knowing what to feel for, you asked if you could do that and you felt it was all happening, well done you, amazing! laughter.

i did not know what else to die because — i did not know what else to die because a _ i did not know what else to die because a couple of times i had gone out of— because a couple of times i had gone out of the _ because a couple of times i had gone out of the station already and said she is— out of the station already and said she is making a lot of noise, we are here _ she is making a lot of noise, we are here for— she is making a lot of noise, we are here for a _ she is making a lot of noise, we are here for a bed rest, she is making a lot of noise, we are here fora bed rest, six she is making a lot of noise, we are here for a bed rest, six of us in the room — here for a bed rest, six of us in the room and none of us can sleep because _ the room and none of us can sleep because this lady is crying out in pain _ because this lady is crying out in pain and — because this lady is crying out in pain. and theyjust kept coming in, looking _ pain. and theyjust kept coming in, looking at— pain. and theyjust kept coming in, looking at her, no, you are absolutely fine, shush now and out they went — absolutely fine, shush now and out they went. shush! yes, one of them actually— they went. shush! yes, one of them actually said — they went. shush! yes, one of them actually said that. and she was in the latter— actually said that. and she was in the latter stages of labour, bless her, the latter stages of labour, bless her. only— the latter stages of labour, bless her. only a — the latter stages of labour, bless her, only a young girl. whether that played _ her, only a young girl. whether that played a _ her, only a young girl. whether that played a part in it, i do not know that my— played a part in it, i do not know that my point is they were black midwives — that my point is they were black midwives. 1 that my point is they were black midwives. ., ., ,, that my point is they were black midwives. ., . ~ ._ that my point is they were black midwives. ., ., ,, �* . that my point is they were black midwives. ., .,~ �* . i] midwives. point taken. faye bruce. i would hate — midwives. point taken. faye bruce. i would hate for _ midwives. point taken. faye bruce. i would hate for it _ midwives. point taken. faye bruce. i would hate for it to _ midwives. point taken. faye bruce. i would hate for it to be _ midwives. point taken. faye bruce. i would hate for it to be assumed - midwives. point taken. faye bruce. i would hate for it to be assumed that| would hate for it to be assumed that these _ would hate for it to be assumed that these ladies who have problems during _ these ladies who have problems during labour that it was all

through— during labour that it was all through the course of white midwives, i am through the course of white midwives, lam not through the course of white midwives, i am not disputing that happens — midwives, i am not disputing that happens at all and i am definitely not dismissing anyone's bad experiences in labour. | not dismissing anyone's bad experiences in labour. i know that. let me bring _ experiences in labour. i know that. let me bring in _ experiences in labour. i know that. let me bring in faye _ experiences in labour. i know that. let me bring in faye bruce, - let me bring in faye bruce, fascinating to hear what you think so far. martin is in london, we have maxine and other colours with us. welcome. ., .. maxine and other colours with us. welcome. ., ,, , ., ., ., m welcome. thank you for having me. at last we talk, — welcome. thank you for having me. at last we talk. it's _ welcome. thank you for having me. at last we talk, it's been _ welcome. thank you for having me. at last we talk, it's been so _ last we talk, it's been so interesting! how relevant is colour interesting! how relevant is colour in midwifery?— in midwifery? yeah, thank you for our in midwifery? yeah, thank you for your stories _ in midwifery? yeah, thank you for your stories so _ in midwifery? yeah, thank you for your stories so far, _ in midwifery? yeah, thank you for your stories so far, really - in midwifery? yeah, thank you for your stories so far, really very - your stories so far, really very varied. in terms of colour and race, it's a really important factor in terms of how people receive care, receive their maternity care. 0ne terms of how people receive care, receive their maternity care. one of

the things that we do not do as we say that the reason why black people are dying almost four times more than other races is because of race and because of racism. it cannot be as simplistic as that. but what we do know on there has been a number of different reports come out, reports for example from the us which talked about if you are cared for by a black doctor, your babies are more likely to survive. 0ne for by a black doctor, your babies are more likely to survive. one of the things that we recognise and it's not so much about race, it's about how we recognise that, understanding people sculpture and people's lived experiences, how that can play a huge role in the care that people receive, whether that is culturally and racially appropriate, takes into consideration a number of different factors some race on its own is not enough. when women talk

about having a good experience, some of this is about when people walk into a clinical environment, pregnant women, whatever clinical environment that might be, if you walk into a maternity environment and you are faced with clinicians that are all people that do not look like you, and you do not fully understand the system or are confident with the system, it is difficult to be able to speak up and share so having representation in terms of race and other intersectional identities is quite important so people feel they can actually share, not having to explain themselves, it's explained why they are doing things, their religion, a number of different things... religion, a number of different thins... �* ., . ., . things... but how much do we cut this into different _ things... but how much do we cut this into different sections? - things... but how much do we cut this into different sections? for i this into different sections? for example some of the points coming through, we cannot have a situation it is a specific type of midwife

profile for a specific profile of woman coming in, i am a black woman so! woman coming in, i am a black woman so i wanta woman coming in, i am a black woman so i want a black midwife, you cannot have that, that's horrendous, isn't it? ~ ,,., , cannot have that, that's horrendous, isn't it? ~ , ., cannot have that, that's horrendous, isn'tit? , ., , isn't it? absolutely, you cannot but what this is — isn't it? absolutely, you cannot but what this is about _ isn't it? absolutely, you cannot but what this is about us _ isn't it? absolutely, you cannot but what this is about us about - what this is about us about the education and the training that people have when they are working in clinical environments. you do not have to be black all of a particular religion. have to be black all of a particular reliaion. ., , have to be black all of a particular relition. ., , ., , religion. you 'ust need to be sensitive — religion. you 'ust need to be sensitive and— religion. you just need to be sensitive and educated - religion. you just need to be sensitive and educated and i sensitive and educated and understand the challenges and people is different, as you put it, lived experiences so it'll be quite interesting as well faye bruce, martin in london coming up, maxine leighton, and all the others to do and experience of people who speak english and people who do not speak english? english and people who do not speak entlish? . english and people who do not speak entfish? , .,,. , english and people who do not speak entlish? , , ~ english? yes, absolutely. and i . lace english? yes, absolutely. and i lace a english? yes, absolutely. and i place a huge — english? yes, absolutely. and i place a huge role. _

english? yes, absolutely. and i place a huge role. when - english? yes, absolutely. and i place a huge role. when we - english? yes, absolutely. and i i place a huge role. when we look, english? yes, absolutely. and i - place a huge role. when we look, in greater manchester for example, what we have just done greater manchester for example, what we havejust done in greater manchester for example, what we have just done in the last six months, we have developed using women's voices, we have developed 12 standards and these standards have been shaped by those women and are now sitting in every provider across greater manchester. every maternity provider. 0ne greater manchester. every maternity provider. one of the things that has come up time and again is about language, people that speak english, how do we engage and ensure that people that do not speak english or understanding even things like consent? understanding how to navigate the maternity care system. there's a whole raft of things where we take for granted people that do not speak english and what they understand about what they are going through. an analysis of that would quite interesting.

we have to take the news and sport, but just give we have to take the news and sport, butjust give us a taste, martin in london, give us a taste, in one line, what you want to talk about, and we will pick up with you on a couple of moments. give us the top line. i couple of moments. give us the top line. ., . , couple of moments. give us the top line. ., ., , ., ., , line. itotally disagree, itotally disatree line. itotally disagree, itotally disagree that _ line. itotally disagree, itotally disagree that it _ line. itotally disagree, itotally disagree that it is _ line. itotally disagree, itotally disagree that it is a _ line. itotally disagree, itotally disagree that it is a racist - line. itotally disagree, itotally| disagree that it is a racist issue, because my partner is polish, and she experienced a horrendous time during birth, she had pre—eclampsia. we will explore more, that is something for us to think about for the next couple of moments. i will come right back to you after we have had the news and the sport. it is 10:31am. the treasurer of the scottish national party, colin beattie,

has been arrested by police investigating the party's finances. officers started a formal investigation into the snp's finances after getting complaints about how donations to the party were used. energy firms have agreed a new code of practice which will stop them forcibly installing prepayment meters in the homes of anyone over 85. campaigners are concerned that the rules are voluntary, but 0fgem says the reputation of energy firms will be on the line if they don't comply. mps are calling for faster progress to tackle what they call appalling higher death rates for black women and those from poorer areas in childbirth. a report says racism has played a key role in creating health disparities. the government says it's invested £165 million in the maternity workforce and are focusing on improving outcomes for all. bird owners can now allow their flocks to roam outside again, after the government lifted an order to keep them inside to reduce the spread of avian influenza. the national housing order came into force in november last year. triple crown winner shaun murphy

says he's felt security protocols in snooker have been too weak for a long time and he added, "i'll be very, very surprised if the protocols that were in place at the crucible yesterday are in place today." the round one action is back under way after play was stopped last night when climate change protesters disrupted the world championship, one poured paint powder across the table. you can watch on bbc two. chelsea goalkeeper kepa says it's normal for todd boehley to visit their dressing room. the club's co—owner told the players the season had been embarrasing after their loss to brighton on saturday. they host real madrid tonight, 2—0 down in their champions league quarterfinal. former leeds boss simon grayson's told us they've got a soft underbelly after they fell to a second heavy home defeat in a row, beaten 6—1 by liverpool. they're two points off the bottom three. and arsenal captain kim little has signed a new contract at the club after yesterday being ruled out for the rest of the season

with a hamstring injury. the gunners are in third the wsl and play wolfsburg in the champions league this weekend. welcome back, very significant and

well supported by the statistics, this report, which is saying that black women are nearly four times more likely than white women to die within six weeks of giving birth. asian women nearly twice as likely. we are exploring this, it is multifactorial, pretty complex, lots of reasons and theories, what is going on. i introduced, just before the news, martin, who gave us a thumbnail sketch of his view on this, he is back, as is dr faye bruce and sharon in southampton. martin, first, tell us more, take it from the top. martin, first, tell us more, take it from the top-— martin, first, tell us more, take it from the top. right, so basically my dauthter from the top. right, so basically my daughter was _ from the top. right, so basically my daughter was born _ from the top. right, so basically my daughter was born premature. - from the top. right, so basically my daughter was born premature. his i daughter was born premature. his delude her mother is polish, and this was during the covid period, and so basically i would get phone calls from my partner saying, please

would you come and visit? the hospital in general, one in central london, was mainly ethnic, like me, caribbean or african, and she would call me and explain to me that she is being mistreated, quite roughly. so when i do go to visit her, there is a change in scenery when i rock up. so, for example, she had no pillows on her bed, and she would get a pillowcase with two blankets in it, which was rock hard. when she had to express milk, it was done very brutally, even though she had pain. when she asked for baby formula, she got formula for a one—year—old, which was given to a premature baby. so i totally disagree that it is a race issue,

that it disagree that it is a race issue, thatitis disagree that it is a race issue, that it is just black women having those kinds of issues, because i have got five sisters and they haven't experienced that at all. heath? haven't experienced that at all. why was it happening? i— haven't experienced that at all. why was it happening? ijust _ haven't experienced that at all. why was it happening? ijust didn't - haven't experienced that at all. why was it happening? ijust didn't get i was it happening? i 'ust didn't get that, i 'ust was it happening? i 'ust didn't get that, i just didn't- was it happening? ijust didn't get that, i just didn't get _ was it happening? ijust didn't get that, i just didn't get that. - was it happening? ijust didn't get that, i just didn't get that. i - was it happening? ijust didn't get that, i just didn't get that. i just | that, ijust didn't get that. ijust didn't get that... i do understand what she was saying, because i saw it first hand, 0k? what she was saying, because i saw it first hand, ok? but i don't think... iam it first hand, ok? but i don't think... i am going to side. i would have preferred for her to see or be dealt with someone else there, and she did say, look at the care they are getting. she did say, look at the care they are getting-— she did say, look at the care they are getting. why do you think she was getting _ are getting. why do you think she was getting substandard - are getting. why do you think she was getting substandard care, . are getting. why do you think she was getting substandard care, as| are getting. why do you think she . was getting substandard care, as you describe it? �* .. , was getting substandard care, as you describe it? �* , , ., , was getting substandard care, as you describe it? �* , , ., was getting substandard care, as you describe it? , , ., ., describe it? because she has got a polish accent _ describe it? because she has got a polish accent and _ describe it? because she has got a polish accent and she _ describe it? because she has got a polish accent and she is _ describe it? because she has got a polish accent and she is polish. . polish accent and she is polish. yes, there is racism, but it is not to do with just black women or ethnic women. i totally disagree

with that. ~ 1 ethnic women. i totally disagree with that. . ., ., ,, ., ., with that. wow, ok, nina, sharon, i want to give — with that. wow, ok, nina, sharon, i want to give you _ with that. wow, ok, nina, sharon, i want to give you a — with that. wow, ok, nina, sharon, i want to give you a word, _ with that. wow, ok, nina, sharon, i want to give you a word, dr - with that. wow, ok, nina, sharon, i want to give you a word, dr faye - want to give you a word, dr faye bruce was listening, chair of the caribbean and african health, sharon, not your real name, it is important you have your say, good morning. important you have your say, good mornint. ,., ., important you have your say, good mornint _ ,., ., ., important you have your say, good morning-_ so - important you have your say, good morning._ so this i morning. good morning. so this retort is morning. good morning. so this report is out. — morning. good morning. so this report is out, what _ morning. good morning. so this report is out, what you - morning. good morning. so this report is out, what you think. morning. good morning. so this. report is out, what you think about what you have been hearing on the radio? i what you have been hearing on the radio? ., . , what you have been hearing on the radio? ., ., , , ., radio? i totally disagree, it is not a racist issue. _ radio? i totally disagree, it is not a racist issue. i— radio? i totally disagree, it is not a racist issue. i have _ radio? i totally disagree, it is not a racist issue. i have been - radio? i totally disagree, it is not a racist issue. i have been a - a racist issue. i have been a midwife _ a racist issue. i have been a midwife for over 13 years, and in my experience — midwife for over 13 years, and in my experience, the issues that people have brought up about, you know, not getting _ have brought up about, you know, not getting pillows brought to them, not having _ getting pillows brought to them, not having buzzers answered, not having the care _ having buzzers answered, not having the care is _ having buzzers answered, not having the care, is definitely more of a staffing — the care, is definitely more of a staffing and equipment issue, more than anything. i have never seen

anyone _ than anything. i have never seen anyone being targeted because of their colour or where they are from. it sometimes does get thrown at us if we don't — it sometimes does get thrown at us if we don't answer a buzz quickly, they will— if we don't answer a buzz quickly, they will turn around and say, you didn't— they will turn around and say, you didn't answer because you are all racist _ didn't answer because you are all racist i— didn't answer because you are all racist. i have had that said to me personally. — racist. i have had that said to me personally, and it isjust because it is so— personally, and it isjust because it is so busy, short—staffed. with regards — it is so busy, short—staffed. with regards to— it is so busy, short—staffed. with regards to the higher risk of pregnancy complications in ethnic minorities, yes, there is that, and we do _ minorities, yes, there is that, and we do have — minorities, yes, there is that, and we do have training on that. we are not sure _ we do have training on that. we are not sure why, but some women are more _ not sure why, but some women are more prone — not sure why, but some women are more prone to have pre—eclampsia... cardiac— more prone to have pre—eclampsia... cardiac disease as well. could i respond to that? in a wee minute, martin. the largest single indirect cause of maternal deaths, cardiac disease. sharon, carry on, this is

really interesting. itide disease. sharon, carry on, this is really interesting.— really interesting. we have extra trainin t really interesting. we have extra training and _ really interesting. we have extra training and prompts _ really interesting. we have extra training and prompts every - really interesting. we have extra| training and prompts every single year. _ training and prompts every single year. and — training and prompts every single year, and it is always put to us that. _ year, and it is always put to us that. you — year, and it is always put to us that, you know, they are at higher risk. _ that, you know, they are at higher risk. and _ that, you know, they are at higher risk. and we — that, you know, they are at higher risk, and we are exploring that, and we are _ risk, and we are exploring that, and we are training and everything, but regards _ we are training and everything, but regards to— we are training and everything, but regards to the racist issues, i have worked _ regards to the racist issues, i have worked in — regards to the racist issues, i have worked in three hospitals, quite a senior— worked in three hospitals, quite a senior midwife now, a ward manager, and i can— senior midwife now, a ward manager, and i can honestly say i have never seen _ and i can honestly say i have never seen that _ and i can honestly say i have never seen that done. it is more of a staffing — seen that done. it is more of a staffing and equipment issue, that if someone doesn't get a proper pillow— if someone doesn't get a proper pillow or— if someone doesn't get a proper pillow or good care... if someone doesn't get a proper pillow or good care. . ._ pillow or good care... stretched resources. _ pillow or good care... stretched resources, staffing, _ pillow or good care... stretched j resources, staffing, equipment, there is a certain perception that is wrong, you are saying?- there is a certain perception that is wrong, you are saying? which we are working — is wrong, you are saying? which we are working on _ is wrong, you are saying? which we are working on anyway, _ is wrong, you are saying? which we are working on anyway, we - is wrong, you are saying? which we are working on anyway, we are - are working on anyway, we are employing more midwives and staff, and we _ employing more midwives and staff, and we can— employing more midwives and staff, and we can see we are getting better. — and we can see we are getting better, and hopefully it will put an end to _ better, and hopefully it will put an end to people complaining about not

having _ end to people complaining about not having the _ end to people complaining about not having the right treatment. we work on it. _ having the right treatment. we work on it. and _ having the right treatment. we work on it, and we are highly trained to -ive on it, and we are highly trained to give that— on it, and we are highly trained to give that treatment. it isjust unfortunate... i mean, ianswer complaints— unfortunate... i mean, ianswer complaints all the time, and when you are _ complaints all the time, and when you are looking through them, you think. _ you are looking through them, you think, there is not really a complaint there, because they are nit-picking — complaint there, because they are nit—picking at certain things. like, you know. — nit—picking at certain things. like, you know, the puzzle wasn't answered in a timely— you know, the puzzle wasn't answered in a timely manner because i am black— in a timely manner because i am black - _ in a timely manner because i am black — sometimes i have had that in a complaint. — black — sometimes i have had that in a complaint, which is not the case, it really_ a complaint, which is not the case, it really is— a complaint, which is not the case, it really is not the case. interesting input. iwonder what it really is not the case. interesting input. i wonder what you think about what nina in reading and demand in northampton will say, and what they think about what they have just heard from you, sharon? ikiiha. just heard from you, sharon? nina, hi. hi! it just heard from you, sharon? nina, hi- hi! it is — just heard from you, sharon? nina, hi. hi! it is not— just heard from you, sharon? nina, hi. hi! it is not just _ just heard from you, sharon? nina, hi. hi! it is notjust about— hi. hi! it is notjust about nit—picking and bells not being answered, it is a bigger issue about the experience that black women have in labour. i have given birth to two

kids in nhs hospitals, i work in nhs myself, and explains was very different. my second baby, iwas myself, and explains was very different. my second baby, i was in labourfor different. my second baby, i was in labour for hours and hours and hours, and i wasn't listened to, i was left by at one point, and when i finally moved to the delivery suite, i had one midwife, and i was being handled like cattle, you know, push, push, the baby is coming. there is a reason why the baby wasn't coming. i was a young lady by myself, being hoist from the bed, no, stand this way, stand this way, fully dilated, hours and hours of pain, not being listened to, or the reason why the babyis listened to, or the reason why the baby is not coming was not because of me. it took hours of pain that wasn't necessary for a consultant to come in and say, she needs an emergency c—section, because the babyis emergency c—section, because the baby is facing her hips. that is a

bigger issue thanjust baby is facing her hips. that is a bigger issue than just nit—picking. can ijust...? can ijust stop you there? _ can ijust. . . ? can i 'ust stop you there? ., , can ijust. . . ? can i 'ust stop you there? ., . ., can ijust. . . ? can i 'ust stop you there? . , ., , can ijust...? can i 'ust stop you there? . , ., , ., there? the deaths that they are talkint there? the deaths that they are talking about — there? the deaths that they are talking about is _ there? the deaths that they are talking about is not _ there? the deaths that they are talking about is not because - there? the deaths that they are talking about is not because of. talking about is not because of people and bells, those are small issues. it is a bigger issue about people dying because of the experience they have had during labour. so making light of it, thinking about a bill not being answered, this is a serious discussion about who is more likely to die, it is not about the small complaints, it is about the bigger issueis complaints, it is about the bigger issue is to black women when they go into labour in our country. flan i into labour in our country. can i 'ust sa into labour in our country. can i just say something? _ into labour in our country. can i just say something? sure. - into labour in our country. can i i just say something? sure. based into labour in our country. can i - just say something? sure. based on our just say something? sure. based on your experience _ just say something? sure. based on your experience about _ just say something? (is based on your experience about not being listened — your experience about not being listened to and that you were in labour— listened to and that you were in labour and _ listened to and that you were in labour and no was listening to you,

that happens to 95% of white women as well. _ that happens to 95% of white women as well, and it happens to myself, no-one _ as well, and it happens to myself, no-one was — as well, and it happens to myself, no—one was listening to me, i was telling _ no—one was listening to me, i was telling them i was in labour, and they were — telling them i was in labour, and they were ignoring me, and that was before _ they were ignoring me, and that was before i— they were ignoring me, and that was before i was— they were ignoring me, and that was before i was a midwife. but it is nothing — before i was a midwife. but it is nothing to— before i was a midwife. but it is nothing to do with colour and where you are _ nothing to do with colour and where you are from, in fact it is probably a staffing — you are from, in fact it is probably a staffing issue or something like that _ a staffing issue or something like that so — a staffing issue or something like that, ., a staffing issue or something like that. ., ., ., that. so what... i have got you in mind, that. so what... i have got you in mind. martin. — that. so what. .. i have got you in mind, martin, as— that. so what... i have got you in mind, martin, as well, _ that. so what. .. i have got you in mind, martin, as well, but- that. so what... i have got you in mind, martin, as well, but loads| that. so what... i have got you in i mind, martin, as well, but loads of reaction to this. why, then, sharon, not real name, do we have this very stark stat that black women are nearly four times more likely than white women to die within six weeks of giving birth? it is complicated, but you have got vast experience, sharon, why is it? idate but you have got vast experience, sharon, why is it?_ but you have got vast experience, sharon, why is it? we are having to ex-lore sharon, why is it? we are having to explore the — sharon, why is it? we are having to explore the health _ sharon, why is it? we are having to explore the health issues _ sharon, why is it? we are having to explore the health issues more, . explore the health issues more, because — explore the health issues more, because it — explore the health issues more, because it is the health thing, not the fact— because it is the health thing, not the fact that they are ignored or treated — the fact that they are ignored or treated any different in maternity care _

treated any different in maternity care i _ treated any different in maternity care i can— treated any different in maternity care. i can put my hand on my heart and say— care. i can put my hand on my heart and say that— care. i can put my hand on my heart and say that they are not treated any different, so it cannot be the fact that — any different, so it cannot be the fact that they are being ignored or not listened to, you know, not getting — not listened to, you know, not getting the labours they want because we are not treating them the same _ because we are not treating them the same it— because we are not treating them the same it is— because we are not treating them the same. it is more of a health issue, which _ same. it is more of a health issue, which we _ same. it is more of a health issue, which we are — same. it is more of a health issue, which we are exploring more, and we are getting _ which we are exploring more, and we are getting trained on.— are getting trained on. which some tteole are getting trained on. which some people might _ are getting trained on. which some people might argue _ are getting trained on. which some people might argue is _ are getting trained on. which some people might argue is down - are getting trained on. which some people might argue is down to - people might argue is down to socioeconomic. amanda in a second, and i think that another caller here, you might want to reflect on some of the stuff you have been hearing, given your own experiences, what were your experiences? welcome, good morning. what were your experiences? welcome, good morning-— good morning. basically, i gave birth few years _ good morning. basically, i gave birth few years ago _ good morning. basically, i gave birth few years ago in _ good morning. basically, i gave birth few years ago in a - good morning. basically, i gave birth few years ago in a london| birth few years ago in a london hospital. — birth few years ago in a london hospital. and _ birth few years ago in a london hospital, and basically, - birth few years ago in a london hospital, and basically, i- birth few years ago in a london hospital, and basically, iwas. birth few years ago in a london| hospital, and basically, iwas 41 weeks. — hospital, and basically, iwas 41 weeks. so — hospital, and basically, iwas 41 weeks. so i _ hospital, and basically, iwas 41 weeks, so i went— hospital, and basically, iwas 41 weeks, so i went in— hospital, and basically, iwas 41 weeks, so i went in for- hospital, and basically, iwas 41 weeks, so i went in for my- weeks, so i went in for my procedure _ weeks, so i went in for my procedure. during - weeks, so i went in for my procedure. during this- weeks, so i went in for my- procedure. during this procedure, i was under— procedure. during this procedure, i was under horrendous _ procedure. during this procedure, i was under horrendous pain, - procedure. during this procedure, i was under horrendous pain, two. procedure. during this procedure, i was under horrendous pain, two of| was under horrendous pain, two of the nurses—

was under horrendous pain, two of the nurses come _ was under horrendous pain, two of the nurses come to _ was under horrendous pain, two of the nurses come to me, _ was under horrendous pain, two of the nurses come to me, i- was under horrendous pain, two of the nurses come to me, i called i was under horrendous pain, two of. the nurses come to me, i called them over. _ the nurses come to me, i called them over. explained— the nurses come to me, i called them over. explained i— the nurses come to me, i called them over, explained i was— the nurses come to me, i called them over, explained i was in— the nurses come to me, i called them over, explained i was in so— the nurses come to me, i called them over, explained i was in so much- over, explained i was in so much pain. _ over, explained i was in so much pain. and — over, explained i was in so much pain. and i— over, explained i was in so much pain. and i said. _ over, explained i was in so much pain, and i said, no, _ over, explained i was in so much pain, and i said, no, don't- over, explained i was in so much| pain, and i said, no, don't worry, you are _ pain, and i said, no, don't worry, you are a— pain, and i said, no, don't worry, you are a strong _ pain, and i said, no, don't worry, you are a strong black— pain, and i said, no, don't worry, you are a strong black lady, - pain, and i said, no, don't worry, you are a strong black lady, youi you are a strong black lady, you don't _ you are a strong black lady, you don't need _ you are a strong black lady, you don't need painkillers, - you are a strong black lady, you don't need painkillers, we - you are a strong black lady, you don't need painkillers, we will. you are a strong black lady, you . don't need painkillers, we will help you through — don't need painkillers, we will help you through this... _ don't need painkillers, we will help you through this. . ._ don't need painkillers, we will help you through this... wow! they said what?! they _ you through this... wow! they said what?! they said _ you through this... wow! they said what?! they said i _ you through this... wow! they said what?! they said i am _ you through this... wow! they said what?! they said i am a _ you through this... wow! they said what?! they said i am a strong - you through this... wow! they said i what?! they said i am a strong black lad , i can what?! they said i am a strong black lady. i can do — what?! they said i am a strong black lady, i can do this, _ what?! they said i am a strong black lady, i can do this, don't _ what?! they said i am a strong black lady, i can do this, don't worry, - what?! they said i am a strong black lady, i can do this, don't worry, we i lady, i can do this, don't worry, we will massage — lady, i can do this, don't worry, we will massage down _ lady, i can do this, don't worry, we will massage down your— lady, i can do this, don't worry, we will massage down your legs - lady, i can do this, don't worry, we will massage down your legs to - lady, i can do this, don't worry, we i will massage down your legs to keep you from _ will massage down your legs to keep you from compacting _ will massage down your legs to keep you from compacting any _ will massage down your legs to keep you from compacting any more - will massage down your legs to keep you from compacting any more pain, j will massage down your legs to keepl you from compacting any more pain, i was crying _ you from compacting any more pain, i was crying and — you from compacting any more pain, i was crying and everything _ you from compacting any more pain, i was crying and everything else, - you from compacting any more pain, i was crying and everything else, and i was crying and everything else, and they were _ was crying and everything else, and they were still— was crying and everything else, and they were still saying _ was crying and everything else, and they were still saying don't - was crying and everything else, and they were still saying don't worry, i they were still saying don't worry, don't _ they were still saying don't worry, don't worry. — they were still saying don't worry, don't worry. you _ they were still saying don't worry, don't worry, you are _ they were still saying don't worry, don't worry, you are a _ they were still saying don't worry, don't worry, you are a strong - they were still saying don't worry, | don't worry, you are a strong lady. after— don't worry, you are a strong lady. after five _ don't worry, you are a strong lady. after five minutes _ don't worry, you are a strong lady. after five minutes of _ don't worry, you are a strong lady. after five minutes of going - don't worry, you are a strong lady. | after five minutes of going through this, after five minutes of going through this. one _ after five minutes of going through this. one of— after five minutes of going through this, one of the _ after five minutes of going through this, one of the doctors _ after five minutes of going through this, one of the doctors must - after five minutes of going through this, one of the doctors must havel this, one of the doctors must have heard _ this, one of the doctors must have heard me — this, one of the doctors must have heard me trying. _ this, one of the doctors must have heard me trying, so _ this, one of the doctors must have heard me trying, so they- this, one of the doctors must have heard me trying, so they came - heard me trying, so they came through. — heard me trying, so they came through. and _ heard me trying, so they came through, and they— heard me trying, so they came through, and they explained, ij through, and they explained, i explained _ through, and they explained, i explained what _ through, and they explained, i explained what was _ through, and they explained, i explained what was going - through, and they explained, i explained what was going on, i through, and they explained, i. explained what was going on, and through, and they explained, i- explained what was going on, and the doctor— explained what was going on, and the doctor told _ explained what was going on, and the doctor told the — explained what was going on, and the doctor told the nurse, _ explained what was going on, and the doctor told the nurse, basically, - doctor told the nurse, basically, you can — doctor told the nurse, basically, you can see _ doctor told the nurse, basically, you can see she _ doctor told the nurse, basically, you can see she is _ doctor told the nurse, basically, you can see she is under- doctor told the nurse, basically, - you can see she is under horrendous pain. _ you can see she is under horrendous pain. give _ you can see she is under horrendous pain. give her— you can see she is under horrendous pain, give her painkillers— you can see she is under horrendous pain, give her painkillers right - pain, give her painkillers right now. — pain, give her painkillers right now. the _ pain, give her painkillers right now. the nurse _ pain, give her painkillers right now. the nurse was _ pain, give her painkillers right. now. the nurse was explaining, basically— now. the nurse was explaining, basically going _ now. the nurse was explaining, basically going back _ now. the nurse was explaining, basically going back and - now. the nurse was explaining, basically going back and forth, i basically going back and forth, sing. — basically going back and forth, sing. she _ basically going back and forth, sing. she can— basically going back and forth, sing, she can do _ basically going back and forth, sing, she can do this. - basically going back and forth, sing, she can do this. the - basically going back and forth, i sing, she can do this. the doctor said. _ sing, she can do this. the doctor said. please. _ sing, she can do this. the doctor said, please, give— sing, she can do this. the doctor said, please, give her— sing, she can do this. the doctorl

said, please, give her painkillers, and also— said, please, give her painkillers, and also give _ said, please, give her painkillers, and also give her— said, please, give her painkillers, and also give her gas _ said, please, give her painkillers, and also give her gas and - said, please, give her painkillers, and also give her gas and air. - said, please, give her painkillers, and also give her gas and air. butj and also give her gas and air. but 'ust and also give her gas and air. but just them — and also give her gas and air. but just them going _ and also give her gas and air. but just them going through - and also give her gas and air. but just them going through that - and also give her gas and air. but i just them going through that alone, i was _ just them going through that alone, i was crying. — just them going through that alone, iwas crying. i— just them going through that alone, i was crying. i was _ just them going through that alone, i was crying, i was upset, _ just them going through that alone, i was crying, i was upset, this- just them going through that alone, i was crying, i was upset, this was. i was crying, i was upset, this was my first _ i was crying, i was upset, this was my first pregnancy. _ i was crying, i was upset, this was my first pregnancy, and _ i was crying, i was upset, this was my first pregnancy, and i- i was crying, i was upset, this was my first pregnancy, and i was - my first pregnancy, and i was expecting. _ my first pregnancy, and i was expecting. you _ my first pregnancy, and i was expecting, you know, - my first pregnancy, and i was expecting, you know, to- my first pregnancy, and i was expecting, you know, to go. my first pregnancy, and i was - expecting, you know, to go through that. _ expecting, you know, to go through that. it _ expecting, you know, to go through that. it put — expecting, you know, to go through that. it put me _ expecting, you know, to go through that, it put me off— expecting, you know, to go through that, it put me off about— expecting, you know, to go through that, it put me off about wanting . expecting, you know, to go through that, it put me off about wanting to| that, it put me off about wanting to have more — that, it put me off about wanting to have more children... _ that, it put me off about wanting to have more children... the- that, it put me off about wanting to have more children. . ._ have more children... the thing is, lovan, if i — have more children... the thing is, lovan. if! can _ have more children... the thing is, lovan, if i can come _ have more children... the thing is, lovan, if! can come in, _ have more children... the thing is, lovan, if! can come in, because i have more children... the thing is, lovan, if! can come in, because it| lovan, if i can come in, because it is taking us back, parents, to what it was like, and i remember come up with ourfirst, it it was like, and i remember come up with our first, it was really, really difficult, and it ended up in an emergency caesarean, and it was horrendous for a while, and eventually it was like plan b, and i am like, what the hell is that? i remember them saying, the obstetrician, it was a guy, i remember him saying, you can do this, you can do this, you can do this. but there wasn't sufficient to dilation, let's talk frankly, but the key for you, you are a strong

black woman, you can do this, they said that. ., ., black woman, you can do this, they said that. . . ., , said that. yeah, and it was during covid, so during _ said that. yeah, and it was during covid, so during that _ said that. yeah, and it was during covid, so during that time - said that. yeah, and it was during covid, so during that time i - covid, so during that time i couldn't— covid, so during that time i couldn't have _ covid, so during that time i couldn't have any _ covid, so during that time i couldn't have any visitors, i covid, so during that time i i couldn't have any visitors, so covid, so during that time i - couldn't have any visitors, so when i was _ couldn't have any visitors, so when i was calling — couldn't have any visitors, so when i was calling my— couldn't have any visitors, so when i was calling my sisters _ couldn't have any visitors, so when i was calling my sisters to - couldn't have any visitors, so when i was calling my sisters to explain. i was calling my sisters to explain what _ i was calling my sisters to explain what was — i was calling my sisters to explain what was going _ i was calling my sisters to explain what was going on, _ i was calling my sisters to explain what was going on, they- i was calling my sisters to explain what was going on, they were - i was calling my sisters to explain. what was going on, they were like, no, what was going on, they were like, no. i— what was going on, they were like, no. i explain— what was going on, they were like, no, i explain that _ what was going on, they were like, no, i explain that you _ what was going on, they were like, no, i explain that you need - no, i explain that you need painkillers. _ no, i explain that you need painkillers, but _ no, i explain that you need painkillers, but they- no, i explain that you need painkillers, but they kept i no, i explain that you need - painkillers, but they kept saying, you can _ painkillers, but they kept saying, you can do — painkillers, but they kept saying, you can do this. _ painkillers, but they kept saying, you can do this, you _ painkillers, but they kept saying, you can do this, you are - painkillers, but they kept saying, you can do this, you are strong. i painkillers, but they kept saying, i you can do this, you are strong. so after— you can do this, you are strong. so after going — you can do this, you are strong. so after going up— you can do this, you are strong. so after going up to _ you can do this, you are strong. so after going up to six _ you can do this, you are strong. so after going up to six or— you can do this, you are strong. so after going up to six or seven - after going up to six or seven minutes. _ after going up to six or seven minutes, that _ after going up to six or seven minutes, that is _ after going up to six or seven minutes, that is when - after going up to six or seven minutes, that is when the - after going up to six or seven . minutes, that is when the doctor came _ minutes, that is when the doctor came in. — minutes, that is when the doctor came in, obviously, _ minutes, that is when the doctor came in, obviously, but- minutes, that is when the doctor came in, obviously, butjust- minutes, that is when the doctor came in, obviously, butjust byi minutes, that is when the doctor. came in, obviously, butjust by then i was _ came in, obviously, butjust by then i was in _ came in, obviously, butjust by then i was in horrendous _ came in, obviously, butjust by then i was in horrendous pain, _ came in, obviously, butjust by then i was in horrendous pain, so- came in, obviously, butjust by then i was in horrendous pain, so even. i was in horrendous pain, so even the gas _ i was in horrendous pain, so even the gas and — i was in horrendous pain, so even the gas and air. _ i was in horrendous pain, so even the gas and air. by— i was in horrendous pain, so even the gas and air, by the _ i was in horrendous pain, so even the gas and air, by the time - i was in horrendous pain, so even the gas and air, by the time i- i was in horrendous pain, so even the gas and air, by the time i hadj the gas and air, by the time i had that. _ the gas and air, by the time i had that. it _ the gas and air, by the time i had that, it knocked _ the gas and air, by the time i had that, it knocked me _ the gas and air, by the time i had that, it knocked me out- the gas and air, by the time i had that, it knocked me out becausel the gas and air, by the time i had i that, it knocked me out because of the horrendous _ that, it knocked me out because of the horrendous pain— that, it knocked me out because of the horrendous pain that _ that, it knocked me out because of the horrendous pain that was - that, it knocked me out because of the horrendous pain that was in, i the horrendous pain that was in, 'ust the horrendous pain that was in, just trying — the horrendous pain that was in, just trying to _ the horrendous pain that was in, just trying to draw _ the horrendous pain that was in, just trying to draw in _ the horrendous pain that was in, just trying to draw in so - the horrendous pain that was in, just trying to draw in so much. ii just trying to draw in so much. i said _ just trying to draw in so much. i said never— just trying to draw in so much. i said never again. _ just trying to draw in so much. i said never again. obviously, - just trying to draw in so much. i said neveragain. obviously, i. just trying to draw in so much. i- said neveragain. obviously, iwould never— said neveragain. obviously, iwould never in— said neveragain. obviously, iwould never in this — said neveragain. obviously, iwould never in this hospital, _ said neveragain. obviously, iwould never in this hospital, my— said neveragain. obviously, iwould never in this hospital, my first - never in this hospital, my first pregnancy. _ never in this hospital, my first pregnancy. it— never in this hospital, my first pregnancy, it was _ never in this hospital, my first pregnancy, it was one - never in this hospital, my first pregnancy, it was one of - never in this hospital, my first pregnancy, it was one of the i never in this hospital, my first - pregnancy, it was one of the worst, sow _ pregnancy, it was one of the worst, so... ~ ., . pregnancy, it was one of the worst, so. . ._ basically, - pregnancy, it was one of the worst, so..._ basically, i. so... was it racism? basically, i think so. _ so... was it racism? basically, i think so. for— so... was it racism? basically, i think so, for people _ so... was it racism? basically, i think so, for people saying - so... was it racism? basically, i| think so, for people saying there so... was it racism? basically, i. think so, for people saying there is no racism. — think so, for people saying there is no racism. it— think so, for people saying there is no racism. it is— think so, for people saying there is no racism, it is 50—50, _ think so, for people saying there is no racism, it is 50—50, because - think so, for people saying there is i no racism, it is 50—50, because some people _

no racism, it is 50—50, because some people experience _ no racism, it is 50—50, because some people experience it, _ no racism, it is 50—50, because some people experience it, some _ no racism, it is 50—50, because some people experience it, some people . no racism, it is 50—50, because somej people experience it, some people do not. people experience it, some people do not before _ people experience it, some people do not before that. _ people experience it, some people do not. before that, someone _ people experience it, some people do not. before that, someone was - people experience it, some people do| not. before that, someone was seeing all of this. _ not. before that, someone was seeing all ofthis. so— not. before that, someone was seeing all of this, so the _ not. before that, someone was seeing all of this, so the doctor _ not. before that, someone was seeing all of this, so the doctor didn't - all of this, so the doctor didn't hear— all of this, so the doctor didn't hear anything _ all of this, so the doctor didn't hear anything the _ all of this, so the doctor didn't hear anything the nurse - all of this, so the doctor didn't hear anything the nurse was i all of this, so the doctor didn't - hear anything the nurse was saying, but as— hear anything the nurse was saying, but as soon— hear anything the nurse was saying, but as soon as — hear anything the nurse was saying, but as soon as the _ hear anything the nurse was saying, but as soon as the doctor— hear anything the nurse was saying, but as soon as the doctor came - hear anything the nurse was saying, but as soon as the doctor came in, i but as soon as the doctor came in, the nurse — but as soon as the doctor came in, the nurse was _ but as soon as the doctor came in, the nurse was going, _ but as soon as the doctor came in, the nurse was going, no, - but as soon as the doctor came in, the nurse was going, no, she - but as soon as the doctor came in, the nurse was going, no, she is. the nurse was going, no, she is fine. _ the nurse was going, no, she is fine don't _ the nurse was going, no, she is fine don't worry. _ the nurse was going, no, she is fine, don't worry, i— the nurse was going, no, she is fine, don't worry, i will- the nurse was going, no, she is fine, don't worry, i will give - the nurse was going, no, she is fine, don't worry, i will give it i the nurse was going, no, she isi fine, don't worry, i will give it to her now. — fine, don't worry, i will give it to her now. i'm _ fine, don't worry, i will give it to her now, i'm just— fine, don't worry, i will give it to her now, i'm just finishing - fine, don't worry, i will give it to her now, i'm just finishing the i her now, i'm just finishing the procedure. _ her now, i'm just finishing the procedure, then— her now, i'm just finishing the procedure, then i— her now, i'm just finishing the procedure, then i will- her now, i'm just finishing the procedure, then i will give - her now, i'm just finishing the procedure, then i will give her painkillers _ procedure, then i will give her painkillers. but— procedure, then i will give her painkillers. but that _ procedure, then i will give her painkillers. but that is - procedure, then i will give her painkillers. but that is not. procedure, then i will give her. painkillers. but that is not what she was— painkillers. but that is not what she was telling _ painkillers. but that is not what she was telling me _ painkillers. but that is not what she was telling me before - painkillers. but that is not what she was telling me before that. j painkillers. but that is not what she was telling me before that. wow, lovan, she was telling me before that. wow, lovan. thank — she was telling me before that. wow, lovan. thank you _ she was telling me before that. wow, lovan, thank you so _ she was telling me before that. wow, lovan, thank you so much _ she was telling me before that. wow, lovan, thank you so much for- she was telling me before that.“ lovan, thank you so much for getting in touch, it is a great contribution. but let's let's listen to others, amanda, don't worry, martin, you are on my list! and faye is listening to this intensely, i know. amanda, your experiences, how do we get to the heart of this, why are black women four times more likely than white women to die within six weeks of giving birth, that perinatal period? i within six weeks of giving birth, that perinatal period?— that perinatal period? i can't really hear — that perinatal period? i can't really hear that _ that perinatal period? i can't really hear that well. .. - that perinatal period? i can't really hear that well... that | that perinatal period? i can't. really hear that well... that is because i _ really hear that well... that is because i am _ really hear that well... that is because i am mumbling - really hear that well... that is because i am mumbling sorry| really hear that well. .. that is - because i am mumbling sorry about

that! ~ ., , ., , that! well, to be honest with you, i do think it is _ that! well, to be honest with you, i do think it is a — that! well, to be honest with you, i do think it is a racism _ that! well, to be honest with you, i do think it is a racism issue. - that! well, to be honest with you, i do think it is a racism issue. i - that! well, to be honest with you, i do think it is a racism issue. i had i do think it is a racism issue. i had my daughter— do think it is a racism issue. i had my daughter in london, and i was seen _ my daughter in london, and i was seen by— my daughter in london, and i was seen by black midwives. there was a little issue _ seen by black midwives. there was a little issue through the pregnancy, but at _ little issue through the pregnancy, but at the — little issue through the pregnancy, but at the actual birth, i felt i was _ but at the actual birth, i felt i was looked after. i then had my son in northampton, and it was a completely different experience, to the point _ completely different experience, to the point that i had to go to counselling after. i had him, iwas telling _ counselling after. i had him, iwas telling them that i was in pain, i was given— telling them that i was in pain, i was given paracetamol, i was saying that _ was given paracetamol, i was saying that you — was given paracetamol, i was saying that... you know, this was really painful. — that... you know, this was really painful. i— that... you know, this was really painful, i had a doctor and a midwife _ painful, i had a doctor and a midwife examined me, they said, you will not _ midwife examined me, they said, you will not die _ midwife examined me, they said, you will not die lighted, and i said i am going — will not die lighted, and i said i am going to the toilet to push, little _ am going to the toilet to push, little did — am going to the toilet to push, little did i— am going to the toilet to push, little did i know that is what i was doing. _ little did i know that is what i was doing, every half an hour. in the end it _ doing, every half an hour. in the end it was — doing, every half an hour. in the end it was so bad, they said, well, if you _ end it was so bad, they said, well, if you go— end it was so bad, they said, well, if you go and — end it was so bad, they said, well, if you go and lay in the bath, then

it will— if you go and lay in the bath, then it will come — if you go and lay in the bath, then it will come down, the pain. i am like. _ it will come down, the pain. i am like. 0k. — it will come down, the pain. i am like. ok. so— it will come down, the pain. i am like. ok. so i— it will come down, the pain. i am like, ok, so i went along to the bath _ like, ok, so i went along to the bath with— like, ok, so i went along to the bath with my husband, and i said, this was— bath with my husband, and i said, this was not— bath with my husband, and i said, this was not the labour ward, it was the pre—labour ward, this was not the labour ward, it was the pre—labourward, iwent this was not the labour ward, it was the pre—labour ward, i went and sat down _ the pre—labour ward, i went and sat down in— the pre—labour ward, i went and sat down in the — the pre—labour ward, i went and sat down in the bath, and within two minute _ down in the bath, and within two minute i— down in the bath, and within two minute i got up and screamed, i went over the _ minute i got up and screamed, i went over the toilet and had my son, and he called _ over the toilet and had my son, and he called my— over the toilet and had my son, and he called my son over the toilet. what _ he called my son over the toilet. what happened then? all he called my son over the toilet. what happened then?— he called my son over the toilet. what happened then? all i... as i screamed. _ what happened then? all i... as i screamed, the _ what happened then? all i... as i screamed, the midwives - what happened then? all i... as i screamed, the midwives came . what happened then? all i... as i i screamed, the midwives came out, what happened then? all i... as i - screamed, the midwives came out, the ones who— screamed, the midwives came out, the ones who didn't believe i was in labour. — ones who didn't believe i was in labour, they came out, it was the worst— labour, they came out, it was the worst site — labour, they came out, it was the worst site ever, there was blood all over the _ worst site ever, there was blood all over the floor, they came out, and they had _ over the floor, they came out, and they had to. _ over the floor, they came out, and they had to... i had to walk with they had to... i had to walk with the umbilical swinging between my le-s, the umbilical swinging between my legs. i— the umbilical swinging between my legs, i had to walk with him, they cut the _ legs, i had to walk with him, they

cut the umbilical blood had to leave it dangling over, they took me back to the _ it dangling over, they took me back to the ward — it dangling over, they took me back to the ward where i was, and there was a _ to the ward where i was, and there was a white — to the ward where i was, and there was a white couple there, and the husband _ was a white couple there, and the husband and wife had heard what i had been — husband and wife had heard what i had been going through, they had heard _ had been going through, they had heard me — had been going through, they had heard me walking up and down in pain. _ heard me walking up and down in pain. and— heard me walking up and down in pain, and the husband said to me, well done — pain, and the husband said to me, well done i— pain, and the husband said to me, well done, i don't know how you done it. i well done, i don't know how you done it i lay— well done, i don't know how you done it i lay down— well done, i don't know how you done it. i lay down on the bed, there was number— it. i lay down on the bed, there was number twos— it. i lay down on the bed, there was number twos all over me, and i was in shock. _ number twos all over me, and i was in shock, absolute shock. even when i brought _ in shock, absolute shock. even when i brought my — in shock, absolute shock. even when i brought my son, i thought, he was that?! _ i brought my son, i thought, he was that?! and — i brought my son, i thought, he was that?! and i— i brought my son, i thought, he was that?! and i was there for how long. — that?! and i was there for how long. i— that?! and i was there for how long... i said, that?! and i was there for how long... isaid, look, can that?! and i was there for how long... i said, look, can i go and wash— long... i said, look, can i go and wash myself? they were like, yeah, yeah _ wash myself? they were like, yeah, yeah after— wash myself? they were like, yeah, yeah. after all that, you would think. — yeah. after all that, you would think. we _ yeah. after all that, you would think, we have made mistakes, they left the _ think, we have made mistakes, they left the afterbirth for me. so within— left the afterbirth for me. so within a _ left the afterbirth for me. so within a week, i was back at the hospital. — within a week, i was back at the hospital, because i had a shower and the afterbirth fell all over the floor— the afterbirth fell all over the floor in— the afterbirth fell all over the floor in the shower. i was feeling dizzy— floor in the shower. i was feeling dizzy and — floor in the shower. i was feeling dizzy and ill, and i went and had a shower— dizzy and ill, and i went and had a shower on— dizzy and ill, and i went and had a shower on my dizzy and ill, and i went and had a

showeron my own,... dizzy and ill, and i went and had a shower on my own,... horrendous, oh, m god! shower on my own,... horrendous, oh, my god! how— shower on my own,... horrendous, oh, my god! how is — shower on my own,... horrendous, oh, my god! how is he? _ shower on my own,... horrendous, oh, my god! how is he? how— shower on my own,... horrendous, oh, my god! how is he? how old _ shower on my own,... horrendous, oh, my god! how is he? how old is - shower on my own,... horrendous, oh, my god! how is he? how old is your . my god! how is he? how old is your son? . my god! how is he? how old is your son? , , son? oh, he is fine, he is ten... ten, son? oh, he is fine, he is ten... ten. wow! _ son? oh, he is fine, he is ten... ten. wow! it _ son? oh, he is fine, he is ten... ten, wow! it was _ son? oh, he is fine, he is ten... ten, wow! it was the _ son? oh, he is fine, he is ten... ten, wow! it was the most - son? oh, he is fine, he is ten... . ten, wow! it was the most dramatic thint i ten, wow! it was the most dramatic thing i have — ten, wow! it was the most dramatic thing i have ever _ ten, wow! it was the most dramatic thing i have ever experienced. - ten, wow! it was the most dramatic thing i have ever experienced. it. ten, wow! it was the most dramatic thing i have ever experienced. it is. thing i have ever experienced. it is unbelievable! _ thing i have ever experienced. it is unbelievable! i— thing i have ever experienced. it 3 unbelievable! i have done the before, many times over the years, on people's maternity experiences, experiences giving birth, and you get marvellous stories, people saying it was wonderful, everyone was fantastic, and you get stories like this, and i have had stories like this, and i have had stories like this, and i have had stories like this from women of every ethnicity stop what makes you think it was racism?— ethnicity stop what makes you think it was racism? because of the way it was handled — it was racism? because of the way it was handled and _ it was racism? because of the way it was handled and the _ it was racism? because of the way it was handled and the way _ it was racism? because of the way it was handled and the way it - it was racism? because of the way it was handled and the way it was - it was racism? because of the way it. was handled and the way it was done. there _ was handled and the way it was done. there is— was handled and the way it was done. there is a _ was handled and the way it was done. there is a thing that i think in this— there is a thing that i think in this country they need to recognise. racism _ this country they need to recognise. racism doesn't mean that someone has to say— racism doesn't mean that someone has to say something nasty and offensive to say something nasty and offensive to you _ to say something nasty and offensive to you. racism isjust being treated differently — to you. racism isjust being treated differently because of the colour of

your skin. — differently because of the colour of your skin, and when you have gone through— your skin, and when you have gone through enough, you know. it is not like. _ through enough, you know. it is not like. i— through enough, you know. it is not like. i have — through enough, you know. it is not like, i have to call you this or that. — like, i have to call you this or that. just _ like, i have to call you this or that, just the attitude behind it, and the — that, just the attitude behind it, and the vast majority of people of colour— and the vast majority of people of colour will— and the vast majority of people of colour will know when someone is being _ colour will know when someone is being racist, even if they do not say it _ being racist, even if they do not say it and _ being racist, even if they do not say it. and it was the whole situation. _ say it. and it was the whole situation, and after that i had a meeting — situation, and after that i had a meeting with two midwives, two whites— meeting with two midwives, two whites ladies, i think they were the headmistress... i can't even say the word. _ headmistress... i can't even say the word, midwifery, they said, do you want _ word, midwifery, they said, do you want to— word, midwifery, they said, do you want to come and have a talk? and also out _ want to come and have a talk? and also out i _ want to come and have a talk? and also out i was patronised and told, well. _ also out i was patronised and told, well, sometimes when you are in labour. _ well, sometimes when you are in labour, sometimes the head just comes— labour, sometimes the head just comes through, no, it canjust come through— comes through, no, it canjust come through and — comes through, no, it canjust come through and that is eight. the midwives— through and that is eight. the midwives are not prepared for it, but i _ midwives are not prepared for it, but i was — midwives are not prepared for it, but i was explaining all the way through— but i was explaining all the way through that i was in pain and needed — through that i was in pain and needed help. 0h, through that i was in pain and needed help. oh, no, but these things— needed help. oh, no, but these things happen. i even had a letter

that brushed it all off. this things happen. i even had a letter that brushed it all off.— that brushed it all off. this is an extraordinary — that brushed it all off. this is an extraordinary contribution, - that brushed it all off. this is an extraordinary contribution, i - that brushed it all off. this is an extraordinary contribution, i do | extraordinary contribution, i do want to hear from extraordinary contribution, i do want to hearfrom donna ockenden, a senior midwife who has been conducting investigations into maternity services and failings over the past ten years. i cannot thank you enough for that. martin, amanda, i did promise to come back to you. martin, give us one line, i promised to come back to you, quickly, because donna is on. i to come back to you, quickly, because donna is on.- because donna is on. i totally relate to _ because donna is on. i totally relate to that _ because donna is on. i totally relate to that experience - because donna is on. i totally relate to that experience just | because donna is on. i totally - relate to that experience just then, because we did have a complaints procedure, but i still think that it is down to non—colour black, so to speak. is down to non-colour black, so to s-eak. ., i. ., speak. ok, donna, did you hear amanda? _ speak. ok, donna, did you hear amanda? l— speak. ok, donna, did you hear amanda? i heard _ speak. ok, donna, did you hear amanda? i heard part— speak. ok, donna, did you hear amanda? i heard part of- speak. ok, donna, did you hear amanda? i heard part of the . speak. ok, donna, did you hear. amanda? i heard part of the story, and as someone _ amanda? i heard part of the story, and as someone who _ amanda? i heard part of the story, and as someone who has _ amanda? i heard part of the story, and as someone who has worked i amanda? i heard part of the story, | and as someone who has worked in amanda? i heard part of the story, - and as someone who has worked in and around _ and as someone who has worked in and around maternity services for pretty much _ around maternity services for pretty much all _ around maternity services for pretty much all of — around maternity services for pretty much all of my life, can ijust say how appalled i am, how sorry i am?

you really_ how appalled i am, how sorry i am? you really didn't deserve that experience. you really didn't deserve that experience-— you really didn't deserve that experience.- not - you really didn't deserve that experience.- not my i you really didn't deserve that - experience.- not my hospital, experience. hmm. not my hospital, not my service _ experience. hmm. not my hospital, not my service but _ experience. hmm. not my hospital, not my service but i'm _ experience. hmm. not my hospital, not my service but i'm just - experience. hmm. not my hospital, not my service but i'm just so - not my service but i'm just so sorry. — not my service but i'm 'ust so sor . �* not my service but i'm 'ust so sor . . , ., not my service but i'm 'ust so sor . �* . not my service but i'm 'ust so sor .�* . not my service but i'm 'ust so sor .~ , ., sorry. are you still with us? how lont did sorry. are you still with us? how long did it _ sorry. are you still with us? how long did it take, _ sorry. are you still with us? how long did it take, we _ sorry. are you still with us? how long did it take, we will - sorry. are you still with us? how long did it take, we will hear - sorry. are you still with us? how i long did it take, we will hear more from donna in the time we have, but how long did it take you to completely get over that trauma? you know, the funny thing is, i'm still not over— know, the funny thing is, i'm still not over it — know, the funny thing is, i'm still not over it if _ know, the funny thing is, i'm still not over it. if there is a loud bang or something happens and i don't know— or something happens and i don't know it _ or something happens and i don't know it is — or something happens and i don't know it is going to happen, my stomach— know it is going to happen, my stomach hurts. and i refer that back to the _ stomach hurts. and i refer that back to the whole someone telling me, there _ to the whole someone telling me, there is— to the whole someone telling me, there is nothing wrong, you are not in labour. _ there is nothing wrong, you are not in labour, you are not in labour. the _ in labour, you are not in labour. the counselling, i had counselling for months after that, and the thing is, i for months after that, and the thing is. i think— for months after that, and the thing is, i think the biggest problem, 'ust is, i think the biggest problem, just hearing these different ladies and this— just hearing these different ladies and this lady, i can't remember her name. _ and this lady, i can't remember her name. the — and this lady, i can't remember her name, the lady thatjust and this lady, i can't remember her name, the lady that just a and this lady, i can't remember her name, the lady thatjust a moment ago. _ name, the lady thatjust a moment ago. the _ name, the lady thatjust a moment ago, the biggest problem is not being _ ago, the biggest problem is not being taken seriously enough. let me to to being taken seriously enough. let me go to donna. — being taken seriously enough. let me

go to donna. l— being taken seriously enough. let me go to donna. lam _ being taken seriously enough. let me go to donna, i am so _ being taken seriously enough. let me go to donna, i am so sorry _ being taken seriously enough. let me go to donna, i am so sorry to - being taken seriously enough. let me go to donna, i am so sorry to hurry i go to donna, i am so sorry to hurry you, but i want to go to donna because there's a couple of things i need to do before the end of the programme. the nhs in england says it is committed to making maternity care safer for all women, the government says it has invested 106 he 5 million in the workforce and is promoting careers in midwifery with an extra 3000 training places. that sounds like the tag at the end of an advert on commercial radio, but we have to give you that information, it is only fair! donna, we have spoken many times, what is the story here? what is going on? it is important — here? what is going on? it is important to _ here? what is going on? it is important to say _ here? what is going on? it is important to say that - here? what is going on? it 3 important to say that the uk is one of the safest countries in the world to give birth, but i feel really privileged, i talk to women on the ground, i spend time talking to black and asian mothers just last week, and what they said to me was although they are aware that midwives are run ragged, often doing their best, as women they don't feel listened to, they don't feel how to, the views are not acted upon, and one woman summed it up for me, she

said, they tell us we are hard to reach, but i feel we are just easy to ignore. now, we have known about this for many years, last year there was a brilliant report called invisible, looking at the maternity experiences of muslim women, and what did they find? black african muslim women received the worst care from their perspective, followed by asian mothers. so we have known about these inequalities in maternity care for a long time. there is some action, because when the brilliant group five times set “p the brilliant group five times set up their group, black women were five times more likely to die. the figures have improved slightly, but i still hear accounts of women who say to me, you know, information was not available in my language, i was not available in my language, i was not able to give informed consent, and again, easy to ignore is the phrase, ratherthan

and again, easy to ignore is the phrase, rather than hard to reach, thatis phrase, rather than hard to reach, that is something i am picking up in my work. that is something i am picking up in m work. , , , my work. some interesting emphasis and distinction, _ my work. some interesting emphasis and distinction, and _ my work. some interesting emphasis and distinction, and from _ my work. some interesting emphasis and distinction, and from what - my work. some interesting emphasis and distinction, and from what i've i and distinction, and from what i've heard a very important one. yes. is this unconscious _ heard a very important one. fies is this unconscious bias? heard a very important one. yes. is this unconscious bias? so _ heard a very important one. yes. is this unconscious bias? so i - heard a very important one. yes. is this unconscious bias? so i think i this unconscious bias? so i think that if there _ this unconscious bias? so i think that if there are _ this unconscious bias? so i think that if there are multiple - this unconscious bias? so i think. that if there are multiple reasons. first of all, we do need to acknowledge that our maternity services, our maternity workforce have not got sufficient funding, and thatis have not got sufficient funding, and that is really important, because the select committee in 2021, now this committee of mps in 2023 have said that there needs to be more funding, we need a maternity workforce plan. there needs to be better training, and midwives are important and better training, and midwives are importantand gps, better training, and midwives are important and gps, who we know are under enormous pressure, and people need time to train with backfill, you can't attend a training day if you can't attend a training day if you are running looking after a number of women on a labour ward.

donna, loads of stuff in there. i am not hurrying you, but i have to look at the clock. live from london. this is bbc news. sudan's paramilitary force, the rsf, has reaffirmed its approval for a 24—hour armistice to ensure the safe passage of civilians. president putin has visited russian troops in occupied ukraine, only his second trip since last year's invasion. an 85—year—old white man is charged with shooting and injuring a black teenager who mistakenly rang the wrong doorbell in the us state of missouri. two men are arrested in new york for allegedly operating a chinese 'secret police' station.