a very good morning to you and welcome to the nation �*s phone in. this morning... learning disabilities — your world. it's all about your experiences, the listeners are listening and the viewers are watching. tell us what your life is like. we're talking about what it's like to be the parent or carer of a young person with severe learning disabilities. and this is why. families of around 80,000 young people who don't have the capacity to make their own financial decisions, are struggling to access money locked in trust funds. that is a massive issue butjust one of so many massive issues and challenges you may well face. tell us about yet another brick wall that you are possibly banging your head

against. are you the parent of a child or young adult with severe learning disabilities? tell me about your world. tell me about the ups and downs, the stress, the moments ofjoy. learning disabilities — your world. here is the news with karishma patel. nicky, thank you. medical leaders are urging the government and doctors to use a third party service — to broker a deal in their pay dispute. the academy of medical royal colleges says strikes are having a "serious impact" on patient care. the government is expected to publish changes to the illegal migration bill — which would make it easier to deport migrants. under the amendment,

the home secretary would be able to ignore some injunctions — from the european court of human rights. experts say major change is needed — to prevent the abuse of disabled children in residential care. the child safeguarding practice review panel — has made a series of recommendations — after investigating three care homes in south yorkshire. friends of paul 0'grady — the former radio two presenter and comedian — say big crowds are expected at his funeral later. he'll be laid to rest at a ceremony in kent — which will feature a guard of honour with dogs from the battersea dogs and cats home — where he volunteered. good morning and welcome. looking forward to listening to people this morning. experiences and hearing

about those experiences will be so valuable, so much to learn for many of us. learning disabilities, your world. we are talking about what it is like to be a parent or carer of a young person with severe learning disabilities. let me remind you why we are doing this, there's so much more to talk about. this is because families of around 80,000 young people who not have the capacity to make their own financial decisions are struggling to access money locked in trust funds, we will address that and there is so much more to address in so many challenges. we want to hear about the trials and tribulations, all the usual challenges of parenting but so much more, so much more! tell us about your world, your life, your hustling, you're advocating, not being listened to, easierfor some thanit being listened to, easierfor some than it is for others to navigate what can be a complicated and

frustrating system as well. the sense of guilt that maybe you are not doing enough? i have experience of that in my family, of the researching and locating and accessing treatment and resources, life is a battle and ifound accessing treatment and resources, life is a battle and i found this statistic from a recent study in america. mothers of adolescence in mothers who have children with autism have stress levels consistent with veterans of combat battle and the worries about the future of that child. but then there is the joy and the love and everything from that very special human being that makes it so worthwhile, someone the treasure of your life. contact us on 08085 909693, you can text us on 85085 and join us on social media with @bbc5live. let me go first to

ramadeep. let me introduce andrew turner campaigned to have families going through the process of accessing money interest funds. welcome to you. good morning. mencap spokesperson kira lawrencejoins us as well. we look forward to speaking to you as well. are you there are, by the way?— to you as well. are you there are, by the way?_ good i by the way? good morning! good mornin: by the way? good morning! good morning to _ by the way? good morning! good morning to yom _ by the way? good morning! good morning to you. ramadeep, - by the way? good morning! good morning to you. ramadeep, the l morning to you. ramadeep, the challenges, we will talk about the trust fund issue, but tell us about your son. i trust fund issue, but tell us about our son. ., trust fund issue, but tell us about our son. . , ., trust fund issue, but tell us about our son. . ,, , your son. i have three young boys, the are your son. i have three young boys, they are teenagers. _ your son. i have three young boys, they are teenagers. my _ your son. i have three young boys, they are teenagers. my middle - your son. i have three young boys, i they are teenagers. my middle son hasjust turned 16 they are teenagers. my middle son has just turned 16 last week, he has down syndrome. an absolute joy and a pleasure. he is not hard work. but the system is hard work. and for the

last 16 years i have been battling to get the right support for him. and itjust feels that every day is a battle. there is a new challenge, a battle. there is a new challenge, a new barrier put up in front of you. and it's not something i anticipated when he was born. i was told the challenges will be making sure he meets his milestones and keeping on top of his health, his education. but actually the biggest challenge we face as parents of a young person with a learning disability is fighting the system and trying to ensure we can access all the right care and the right support for him. it is tiring. incredibly tiring. and it takes its toll on families and parents. eyesight was saying, you know better

than anyone it is the constant banging your head against the brick wall, the frustrations, you came out with the word very early, the system. tell us about the it takes. the system is difficult to navigate. nothing is easy. so from day one when you think about i need to speak to a health professional or i need to a health professional or i need to find the right school for my child, immediately you are faced with people who say no, you cannot have this, you cannot have that. so you end up always going to situations and wondering is this person going to listen to me? am i going to get the right support? you are always on the defensive and you look at your child in a kind of a deficit sense, never a positive. even though i live with this glorious child who is joyous, such a

hugely popular member of our community, in school and within the family, when i have to access anything for him he becomes a deficit. and i is a horrible feeling for a parent because i look at my other boys and i never think of them in that way, it is always the positive, what he can do, what siblings can do about when talking about harry, it is always negative, claiming allowances, you've got to think about the worst experiences you have for your child. in education, we are constantly fighting. we forget these are just young people who need support in their lives and we just want people to make life easier for us and not for us to have to constantly fight. and navigating the system is difficult enough. i like to think i am quite capable of reaching out.

researching about things but there are so many parents out there who do not have the ability to do that. 100%. yes. most of the system. don't know for to start. a deficit, that is so sad. kira lawrence, i know you were nodding in agreement and understanding. when we heard that from ramadeep, could you expand on that? ., . from ramadeep, could you expand on that? a, , g, ,, from ramadeep, could you expand on that? a, g, ., g, that? good morning nicky. i work for the uk leading _ that? good morning nicky. i work for the uk leading learning _ that? good morning nicky. i work for the uk leading learning disability - the uk leading learning disability charity— the uk leading learning disability charity mencap. i am engagement letter_ charity mencap. i am engagement letter at _ charity mencap. i am engagement letter at mencap, that is myjob title and — letter at mencap, that is myjob title and i— letter at mencap, that is myjob title and i am a person with a learning _ title and i am a person with a learning disability. i grew up and i really— learning disability. i grew up and i really struggled, i went to three mainstream schools and i was told i was stunid, — mainstream schools and i was told i was stupid, i was told i was thick, i was stupid, i was told i was thick, i could _ was stupid, i was told i was thick, i could not— was stupid, i was told i was thick, i could not learn, i could not achieve _ i could not learn, i could not achieve and so finally, at the age

of ten, _ achieve and so finally, at the age of ten, my— achieve and so finally, at the age of ten, my final mainstream school that often, my final mainstream school that i_ of ten, my final mainstream school that i was— of ten, my final mainstream school that i was and basically said we cannot— that i was and basically said we cannot teach you any more, we do not want you _ cannot teach you any more, we do not want you here. we do not know what you need _ want you here. we do not know what you need and then i got diagnosed properly— you need and then i got diagnosed properly with my learning disability through— properly with my learning disability through the old sen statement in process— through the old sen statement in process which is now called and dhcp and i process which is now called and dhcp and i went— process which is now called and dhcp and i went to a special school and i -ot and i went to a special school and i got five _ and i went to a special school and i got five gcses there, i went to college — got five gcses there, i went to college i_ got five gcses there, i went to college. i achieved some courses there _ college. i achieved some courses there and — college. i achieved some courses there and then i got my firstjob at mencap _ there and then i got my firstjob at mencap and i have worked here for 22 years _ mencap and i have worked here for 22 years i_ mencap and i have worked here for 22 years i know— mencap and i have worked here for 22 years. i know as a person with a learning — years. i know as a person with a learning disability how much hard work— learning disability how much hard work it— learning disability how much hard work it takes to achieve what you want _ work it takes to achieve what you want to _ work it takes to achieve what you want to achieve. and i have done it. and i_ want to achieve. and i have done it. and i know— want to achieve. and i have done it. and i know in — want to achieve. and i have done it. and i know in a leader role at mencap, _ and i know in a leader role at mencap, on the leadership team, i work— mencap, on the leadership team, i work in _ mencap, on the leadership team, i work in inclusion so i make sure in

myjob _ work in inclusion so i make sure in myjob that— work in inclusion so i make sure in myjob that people that we work with with a _ myjob that people that we work with with a learning disability are included _ with a learning disability are included in our work as much as possible — included in our work as much as possible i— included in our work as much as possible. i am included in our work as much as possible. lam really included in our work as much as possible. i am really proud. included in our work as much as possible. lam really proud. next possible. iam really proud. next month— possible. iam really proud. next month i— possible. lam really proud. next month i am — possible. lam really proud. next month i am celebrating my ten year wedding _ month i am celebrating my ten year wedding anniversary so that is a big milestone _ wedding anniversary so that is a big milestone happening! congratulations! thank you. and i want _ congratulations! thank you. and i want to— congratulations! thank you. and i want to show other young people with a learning _ want to show other young people with a learning disability what they can achieve _ a learning disability what they can achieve with the right support. i live independently with my husband, we have _ live independently with my husband, we have our own home and it has taken _ we have our own home and it has taken a _ we have our own home and it has taken a long _ we have our own home and it has taken a long time to get where we are now _ taken a long time to get where we are now it— taken a long time to get where we are now. it has not happened overnight _ are now. it has not happened overnight. i have had to work hard for what _ overnight. i have had to work hard for what i — overnight. i have had to work hard for what i have, work hard to achieve — for what i have, work hard to achieve the things i have in my life _ achieve the things i have in my life but — achieve the things i have in my life. but you have to say all the things — life. but you have to say all the things you _ life. but you have to say all the things you find hard all the time to -et things you find hard all the time to get people to listen to you. i have to tell _ get people to listen to you. i have to tell people all the time speak to

me clearly. give me extra time. put things— me clearly. give me extra time. put things in_ me clearly. give me extra time. put things in an — me clearly. give me extra time. put things in an easy way for me to understand. then i can achieve. but i understand. then i can achieve. but i should _ understand. then i can achieve. but i should not— understand. then i can achieve. but i should not have to tell people that _ i should not have to tell people that. people should know what adjustments to make but they do not always— adjustments to make but they do not always know. and actually, people in society— always know. and actually, people in society need to change their attitude _ society need to change their attitude about people with learning disabilities like me and if they did change _ disabilities like me and if they did change their attitude, the world will change. i am change their attitude, the world will change. lam here change their attitude, the world will change. i am here to say, i am a person— will change. i am here to say, i am a person with — will change. i am here to say, i am a person with a learning disability, i am a person with a learning disability, i am me. — a person with a learning disability, i am me. a — a person with a learning disability, lam me, a person and if you a person with a learning disability, i am me, a person and if you want to know— i am me, a person and if you want to know more _ i am me, a person and if you want to know more about what mencap do, go to the _ know more about what mencap do, go to the website! | know more about what mencap do, go to the website! i do know more about what mencap do, go to the website!— to the website! i do not know how to follow that! — to the website! i do not know how to follow that! amazing _ to the website! i do not know how to follow that! amazing and _ to the website! i do not know how to follow that! amazing and thank - to the website! i do not know how to follow that! amazing and thank you | follow that! amazing and thank you so much, ciara. you have said so much. you are wonderful and under, i will be with you shortly. max is in

bath, and thought about ciara? incredible. max, thank you for getting in touch. navigating the system. we heard it from ramadeep, the constant frustrations and tearing your hair out, tell us about yourson tearing your hair out, tell us about your son and what it is like. brute your son and what it is like. we have a 20—year—old son, jonah, who is in a _ have a 20—year—old son, jonah, who is in a special—needs _ have a 20—year—old son, jonah, who is in a special—needs residential- have a 20—year—old son, jonah, who is in a special—needs residential in. is in a special—needs residential in wales _ is in a special—needs residential in wales one — is in a special—needs residential in wales one of— is in a special—needs residential in wales. one of the _ is in a special—needs residential in wales. one of the many— is in a special—needs residential in wales. one of the many bumps. is in a special—needs residential in wales. one of the many bumps in| is in a special—needs residential in. wales. one of the many bumps in the road wales. 0ne of the many bumps in the road that— wales. one of the many bumps in the road that you — wales. one of the many bumps in the road that you experience _ wales. one of the many bumps in the road that you experience comes - wales. one of the many bumps in the road that you experience comes down to money _ road that you experience comes down to money as — road that you experience comes down to money. as many, _ road that you experience comes down to money. as many, many— road that you experience comes down to money. as many, many millions. road that you experience comes down to money. as many, many millions ofj to money. as many, many millions of children— to money. as many, many millions of children have — to money. as many, many millions of children have received _ to money. as many, many millions of children have received money- to money. as many, many millions of children have received money from i children have received money from children have received money from child trust— children have received money from child trust funds _ children have received money from child trust funds via _ children have received money from child trust funds via the _ children have received money froml child trust funds via the government problem _ child trust funds via the government problem is _ child trust funds via the government problem is once _ child trust funds via the government problem is once they _ child trust funds via the government problem is once they reach - child trust funds via the government problem is once they reach adult - child trust funds via the governmentl problem is once they reach adult age accessing _ problem is once they reach adult age accessing that — problem is once they reach adult age accessing that money. _ problem is once they reach adult age accessing that money. we _ problem is once they reach adult age accessing that money. we cannot- problem is once they reach adult age i accessing that money. we cannot take our son— accessing that money. we cannot take our son into _ accessing that money. we cannot take our son into barclays_ accessing that money. we cannot take our son into barclays bank— accessing that money. we cannot take our son into barclays bank or- accessing that money. we cannot take our son into barclays bank or lloyds. our son into barclays bank or lloyds bank, _ our son into barclays bank or lloyds bank. other— our son into barclays bank or lloyds bank, other banks _ our son into barclays bank or lloyds bank, other banks are _ our son into barclays bank or lloyds bank, other banks are available - our son into barclays bank or lloydsl bank, other banks are available stop jonah— bank, other banks are available stop jonah is— bank, other banks are available stop jonah is non—viable _ bank, other banks are available stop jonah is non—viable and _ bank, other banks are available stop

jonah is non—viable and he _ bank, other banks are available stop jonah is non—viable and he does- bank, other banks are available stop jonah is non—viable and he does notl jonah is non—viable and he does not read or— jonah is non—viable and he does not read or write. — jonah is non—viable and he does not read or write, severely— jonah is non—viable and he does not read or write, severely autistic, - read or write, severely autistic, would _ read or write, severely autistic, would not — read or write, severely autistic, would not handle _ read or write, severely autistic, would not handle the _ read or write, severely autistic, - would not handle the environment, he does not _ would not handle the environment, he does not have — would not handle the environment, he does not have a — would not handle the environment, he does not have a driving _ would not handle the environment, he does not have a driving licence - would not handle the environment, he does not have a driving licence or- does not have a driving licence or passport~ — does not have a driving licence or passport~ to— does not have a driving licence or passport. to try _ does not have a driving licence or passport. to try and _ does not have a driving licence or passport. to try and set - does not have a driving licence or passport. to try and set up - does not have a driving licence or passport. to try and set up a - does not have a driving licence ori passport. to try and set up a bank account— passport. to try and set up a bank account is— passport. to try and set up a bank account is a — passport. to try and set up a bank account is a real— passport. to try and set up a bank account is a real problem. - passport. to try and set up a bank account is a real problem. you - passport. to try and set up a bank i account is a real problem. you have to basically— account is a real problem. you have to basically set— account is a real problem. you have to basically set up _ account is a real problem. you have to basically set up a _ account is a real problem. you have to basically set up a disabled... - to basically set up a disabled... you _ to basically set up a disabled... you cannot— to basically set up a disabled... you cannot go— to basically set up a disabled... you cannot go to _ to basically set up a disabled... you cannot go to an _ to basically set up a disabled... i you cannot go to an organisation to basically set up a disabled... - you cannot go to an organisation and you apply— you cannot go to an organisation and you apply for — you cannot go to an organisation and you apply for deputy— you cannot go to an organisation and you apply for deputy ship _ you cannot go to an organisation and you apply for deputy ship someone, i you apply for deputy ship someone, so you _ you apply for deputy ship someone, so you can _ you apply for deputy ship someone, so you can access _ you apply for deputy ship someone, so you can access the _ you apply for deputy ship someone, so you can access the money- you apply for deputy ship someone, so you can access the money and i you apply for deputy ship someone, | so you can access the money and act on their— so you can access the money and act on their behalf _ so you can access the money and act on their behalf. the _ so you can access the money and act on their behalf. the problem - so you can access the money and act on their behalf. the problem is - so you can access the money and act on their behalf. the problem is this. on their behalf. the problem is this costs— on their behalf. the problem is this costs about — on their behalf. the problem is this costs about £300, _ on their behalf. the problem is this costs about £300, there _ on their behalf. the problem is this costs about £300, there is - on their behalf. the problem is this costs about £300, there is literally| costs about £300, there is literally 100 pages— costs about £300, there is literally 100 pages of— costs about £300, there is literally 100 pages of forms _ costs about £300, there is literally 100 pages of forms you _ costs about £300, there is literally 100 pages of forms you need - costs about £300, there is literally 100 pages of forms you need to . costs about £300, there is literally 100 pages of forms you need to goj 100 pages of forms you need to go through _ 100 pages of forms you need to go through the — 100 pages of forms you need to go through. the process— 100 pages of forms you need to go through. the process takes - 100 pages of forms you need to go through. the process takes six - through. the process takes six months — through. the process takes six months and _ through. the process takes six months and it's _ through. the process takes six months and it's really- through. the process takes six. months and it's really stressful. this is— months and it's really stressful. this is exactly— months and it's really stressful. this is exactly what _ months and it's really stressful. this is exactly what ramadeep. months and it's really stressful. i this is exactly what ramadeep was saying, imagine people for whom that is a challenge like everest, getting through 100 pages, not knowing where to start. stand

through 100 pages, not knowing where to start. �* ., , ., , through 100 pages, not knowing where to start. �* ., , ., to start. and having english as a first language? _ to start. and having english as a first language? it's _ to start. and having english as a first language? it'sjust - to start. and having english as a first language? it'sjust so - first language? it'sjust so difficult _ first language? it'sjust so difficult. for— first language? it'sjust so difficult. for us, _ first language? it'sjust so difficult. for us, we - first language? it'sjust so difficult. for us, we are i first language? it's just so - difficult. for us, we are planning for the _ difficult. for us, we are planning for the future _ difficult. for us, we are planning for the future of _ difficult. for us, we are planning for the future of tune—up - difficult. for us, we are planning for the future of tune—up and - difficult. for us, we are planning for the future of tune—up and we difficult. for us, we are planning - for the future of tune—up and we are not around _ for the future of tune—up and we are not around and _ for the future of tune—up and we are not around and we _ for the future of tune—up and we are not around and we have _ for the future of tune—up and we are not around and we have set - for the future of tune—up and we are not around and we have set up - for the future of tune—up and we are not around and we have set up a - not around and we have set up a disabled — not around and we have set up a disabled person— not around and we have set up a disabled person is— not around and we have set up a disabled person isjust _ not around and we have set up a disabled person isjust so - not around and we have set up a disabled person isjust so whenl not around and we have set up a . disabled person is just so when we are no— disabled person is just so when we are no longer— disabled person is just so when we are no longer around, _ disabled person is just so when we are no longer around, anything, i are no longeraround, anything, anything. — are no longeraround, anything, anything. his— are no longeraround, anything, anything, his inheritance - are no longeraround, anything, anything, his inheritance from l are no longer around, anything, . anything, his inheritance from our house _ anything, his inheritance from our house or— anything, his inheritance from our house or whatever— anything, his inheritance from our house or whatever will— anything, his inheritance from our house or whatever will go - anything, his inheritance from our house or whatever will go into - anything, his inheritance from our house or whatever will go into a l house or whatever will go into a special— house or whatever will go into a special trust. _ house or whatever will go into a special trust, that— house or whatever will go into a special trust, that is— house or whatever will go into a special trust, that is designed . special trust, that is designed purely— special trust, that is designed purely and _ special trust, that is designed purety and simply— special trust, that is designed purely and simply for - special trust, that is designed purely and simply for his - special trust, that is designed . purely and simply for his benefit. his brother— purely and simply for his benefit. his brother and _ purely and simply for his benefit. his brother and sister— purely and simply for his benefit. his brother and sister will- his brother and sister will administer— his brother and sister will administer it— his brother and sister will administer it on— his brother and sister will administer it on his - his brother and sister will. administer it on his behalf, his brother and sister will- administer it on his behalf, jonah will spend — administer it on his behalf, jonah will spend a — administer it on his behalf, jonah will spend a few _ administer it on his behalf, jonah will spend a few hundred - administer it on his behalf, jonah will spend a few hundred pounds| administer it on his behalf, jonah. will spend a few hundred pounds on horse _ will spend a few hundred pounds on horse riding — will spend a few hundred pounds on horse riding lessons— will spend a few hundred pounds on horse riding lessons or— will spend a few hundred pounds on horse riding lessons or swimming . horse riding lessons or swimming lessons _ horse riding lessons or swimming lessons or— horse riding lessons or swimming lessons or something _ horse riding lessons or swimming lessons or something like - horse riding lessons or swimming lessons or something like this - horse riding lessons or swimmingj lessons or something like this but you need — lessons or something like this but you need a — lessons or something like this but you need a trust _ lessons or something like this but you need a trust bank— lessons or something like this but you need a trust bank account - lessons or something like this but| you need a trust bank account and very few— you need a trust bank account and very few banks _ you need a trust bank account and very few banks nowadays - you need a trust bank account and very few banks nowadays offer- you need a trust bank account and i very few banks nowadays offer these services _ very few banks nowadays offer these services so _ very few banks nowadays offer these services so you — very few banks nowadays offer these services so you try _ very few banks nowadays offer these services so you try to _ very few banks nowadays offer these services so you try to plan _ very few banks nowadays offer these services so you try to plan for- very few banks nowadays offer these services so you try to plan for the . services so you try to plan for the future _ services so you try to plan for the future of — services so you try to plan for the future of your— services so you try to plan for the future of your child _ services so you try to plan for the future of your child under- services so you try to plan for the future of your child under the - services so you try to plan for thel future of your child under the right thing _ future of your child under the right thing financially. _ future of your child under the right thing financially. it _ future of your child under the right thing financially. it is— future of your child under the right thing financially. it is not- future of your child under the right thing financially. it is not a - future of your child under the right thing financially. it is not a cheap. thing financially. it is not a cheap process _ thing financially. it is not a cheap process but — thing financially. it is not a cheap process but there _ thing financially. it is not a cheap process but there are _ thing financially. it is not a cheap process but there are so - thing financially. it is not a cheap process but there are so many. process but there are so many obstacles _ process but there are so many obstacles in— process but there are so many obstacles in the _ process but there are so many obstacles in the way. - process but there are so many obstacles in the way. forms . process but there are so many| obstacles in the way. forms to process but there are so many- obstacles in the way. forms to fill in. obstacles in the way. forms to fill ih finding — obstacles in the way. forms to fill ih finding a—

obstacles in the way. forms to fill in. finding a bank— obstacles in the way. forms to fill in. finding a bank that _ obstacles in the way. forms to fill in. finding a bank that will- in. finding a bank that will actually— in. finding a bank that will actually provide _ in. finding a bank that will actually provide the - in. finding a bank that will| actually provide the service in. finding a bank that will- actually provide the service for you _ actually provide the service for you and — actually provide the service for you. and by— actually provide the service for you. and by the _ actually provide the service for you. and by the way— actually provide the service for you. and by the way we - actually provide the service for you. and by the way we had i actually provide the service for. you. and by the way we had one actually provide the service for- you. and by the way we had one bank that will— you. and by the way we had one bank that will take — you. and by the way we had one bank that will take but _ you. and by the way we had one bank that will take but they— you. and by the way we had one bank that will take but they need _ you. and by the way we had one bank that will take but they need a - that will take but they need a minimum _ that will take but they need a minimum of— that will take but they need a minimum of £10,000 - that will take but they need a minimum of £10,000 before| that will take but they need a - minimum of £10,000 before they will even look— minimum of £10,000 before they will even look at _ minimum of £10,000 before they will even look at setting _ minimum of £10,000 before they will even look at setting up _ minimum of £10,000 before they will even look at setting up an _ minimum of £10,000 before they will even look at setting up an account - even look at setting up an account for your— even look at setting up an account for your child _ even look at setting up an account for your child. it— even look at setting up an account for your child. it is— even look at setting up an account for your child. it isjust _ even look at setting up an account for your child. it isjust another. for your child. it isjust another bit of— for your child. it isjust another bit of grief— for your child. it isjust another bit of grief and _ for your child. it isjust another bit of grief and frustration - for your child. it isjust another bit of grief and frustration that| bit of grief and frustration that parents — bit of grief and frustration that parents like _ bit of grief and frustration that parents like us _ bit of grief and frustration that parents like us have _ bit of grief and frustration that parents like us have to - bit of grief and frustration that parents like us have to deal. bit of grief and frustration that i parents like us have to deal with. andrea. — parents like us have to deal with. andrea, another— parents like us have to deal with. andrea, another bit _ parents like us have to deal with. andrea, another bit of— parents like us have to deal with. andrea, another bit of grief - parents like us have to deal with. andrea, another bit of grief and i andrea, another bit of grief and frustration that parents have to deal with, frustration that parents have to dealwith, parents frustration that parents have to deal with, parents like max and ramadeep aren't so many parents looking at right now.— ramadeep aren't so many parents looking at right now. andrew turner, lease looking at right now. andrew turner, please come — looking at right now. andrew turner, please come in _ looking at right now. andrew turner, please come in here. _ looking at right now. andrew turner, please come in here. i _ looking at right now. andrew turner, please come in here. i think- looking at right now. andrew turner, please come in here. i think max - please come in here. i think max summarises things very well around the child trust fund and as it goes it goes way beyond that with many other things parents must battle for. i particularly campaigned on the child trust fund issue because it is an absurdity that i thought would get sorted out in 2020 when we

up would get sorted out in 2020 when we up with the government and here we are, years later and most parents now with a disabled child with a child trust fund or not claiming that money because they cannot face the long protection process. one thing i would like to emphasise is we are not talking about damaging protection, we believe the mental capacity act is vital for the protection of our children but it seems incredible that a piece of legislation cannot be amended to adapt to changing circumstances and in 2020 when the child trust fund started maturing, there was suddenly a huge demand for children being able to enjoy and access their savings and at that point, there was no solution in place and two years later, that is staggeringly unbelievable with no solution in place. unbelievable with no solution in lace. ~ ., unbelievable with no solution in lace, . ., ., unbelievable with no solution in lace. ~ ., ., ., , , place. we are learning, honestly, i'm place. we are learning, honestly, i'm sorry. — place. we are learning, honestly, i'm sorry. monks _ place. we are learning, honestly, i'm sorry, monks were _ place. we are learning, honestly, i'm sorry, monks were here - place. we are learning, honestly, l i'm sorry, monks were here coming back? i thought i heard you, you are

welcome to come back in here. we must go to another collar. tell me, andrew, a pope mikey, he is 18? he is andrew, a pope mikey, he is 18? he: is actually 20. andrew, a pope mikey, he is 18? he is actually 20- i— andrew, a pope mikey, he is 18? he is actually 20. i doubt _ andrew, a pope mikey, he is 18? he is actually 20. i doubt beg _ andrew, a pope mikey, he is 18? he is actually 20. i doubt beg your- is actually 20. i doubt beg your ardon. is actually 20. i doubt beg your pardon- i _ is actually 20. i doubt beg your pardon- i do — is actually 20. i doubt beg your pardon. i do not— is actually 20. i doubt beg your pardon. i do not know - is actually 20. i doubt beg your pardon. i do not know for - is actually 20. i doubt beg your pardon. i do not know for the l pardon. i do not know for the time has gone- — pardon. i do not know for the time has gone- he _ pardon. i do not know for the time has gone- he is — pardon. i do not know for the time has gone. he is a _ pardon. i do not know for the time has gone. he is a very _ pardon. i do not know for the time has gone. he is a very special- pardon. i do not know for the time j has gone. he is a very special boy. he is my son and i think one of the bravest people you would ever meet. he was a normal toddler. round about the age of five we started to experience problems with learning and development within. after a period of years, that got worse and in 2011 after a number of medical procedures, we discovered he had a neurodegenerative condition and that has been a very painfuljourney for us as a family. the child trust fund

that he had will surround about £5,000, his grandparents had contributed and he wanted to buy a bike on the bike was important for him for his mental and physical well—being and when he turned 18 in 2020 we discovered we had to go to court to buy our son a bike and my wife is responsible for managing his benefit payments, he gets a small amount and she was interviewed by the department for work and pensions for that and we went through that process and she is actually managing more benefits for him than in his child trust fund so it is an example of what you have this double—headed bureaucracy which is just wrong. the bureaucracy which is 'ust wrong. the s stem, bureaucracy which is 'ust wrong. the system. as— bureaucracy which is just wrong. the system, as we heard. emmajoining us system, as we heard. emma joining us from southampton. good morning. you are on injust a second but from southampton. good morning. you are on in just a second but let from southampton. good morning. you are on injust a second but let me do a couple of texts, if i may. it is a permanent struggle says one

text, jumping through hoops for very little help. it makes families struggle and lose out. and this one, i am saying yes, yes, to every word. about battling the system and she is just the first colour! and ciara, i have one for you. this text has come in for you. this young lady needs to enter politics! amazingly eloquent, thatis enter politics! amazingly eloquent, that is from helen in norfolk. course for you to enter politics, is that something you would ever consider? ., ., that something you would ever consider? ., ,, , ., ., , consider? thank you, that is so kind. i consider? thank you, that is so kind- ijust _ consider? thank you, that is so kind. i just want _ consider? thank you, that is so kind. i just want to _ consider? thank you, that is so kind. i just want to be - consider? thank you, that is so kind. ijust want to be a - consider? thank you, that is so kind. ijust want to be a role i consider? thank you, that is so - kind. ijust want to be a role model for other people like me. i am sure one day i will get to politics but i'm quite happy being at mencap right now and change in parity forever! ., ., ., forever! the fourth woman prime minister, i _ forever! the fourth woman prime minister, ithink— forever! the fourth woman prime minister, ithink i _ forever! the fourth woman prime

minister, i think i am _ forever! the fourth woman prime minister, i think! am saying, - forever! the fourth woman prime i minister, i think! am saying, when minister, i think i am saying, when that happens as it inevitably will! and helen is coming up as well but emma, tell us about your daughter, and you are struggling with the system? and you are struggling with the s stem? ., i. ., and you are struggling with the s stem? ., ., ., ., , system? you batter your head against a brick wall and _ system? you batter your head against a brick wall and they _ system? you batter your head against a brick wall and they get _ system? you batter your head against a brick wall and they get to _ system? you batter your head against a brick wall and they get to the - system? you batter your head against a brick wall and they get to the age i a brick wall and they get to the age of 16 and _ a brick wall and they get to the age of 16 and points taken away from them _ of 16 and points taken away from them. most areas because we wanted a suitable _ them. most areas because we wanted a suitable building for our everlasting home and then ciara joined _ everlasting home and then ciara joined college. no one in the area will take _ joined college. no one in the area will take her, she was lucky to get in and _ will take her, she was lucky to get in and view— will take her, she was lucky to get in and view the places. because of her needs — in and view the places. because of her needs. and now she has to travel all the _ her needs. and now she has to travel all the way— her needs. and now she has to travel all the way to — her needs. and now she has to travel all the way to undo for her needs to be met _ all the way to undo for her needs to be met. which is my requirement for her to— be met. which is my requirement for her to go— be met. which is my requirement for her to go to — be met. which is my requirement for her to go to college. legally. —— travel— her to go to college. legally. —— travel to— her to go to college. legally. —— travel to andover. we are just over the bear— travel to andover. we are just over the bear pit — travel to andover. we are just over the bear pit threshold of £1345 for this term — the bear pit threshold of £1345 for this term taxi payments. and for

next _ this term taxi payments. and for next year. — this term taxi payments. and for next year, they want to put that up by 27~i%, _ next year, they want to put that up by 27.1%, hampshire city council, to 1700 _ by 27.1%, hampshire city council, to 1700 and _ by 27.1%, hampshire city council, to 1700 and something a year and if i am struggling now and i cannot pay it and _ am struggling now and i cannot pay it and i_ am struggling now and i cannot pay it and i have had my final demand, what _ it and i have had my final demand, what am _ it and i have had my final demand, what am i— it and i have had my final demand, what am i going to be like next year? — what am i going to be like next year? if— what am i going to be like next year? if i— what am i going to be like next year? if i was to turn round and i want _ year? if i was to turn round and i want to— year? if i was to turn round and i want to give _ year? if i was to turn round and i want to give her the best, and say to her— want to give her the best, and say to her social— want to give her the best, and say to her social worker, maybe you need to her social worker, maybe you need to take _ to her social worker, maybe you need to take into— to her social worker, maybe you need to take into the system to get what she wants. — to take into the system to get what she wants, god forbid i do not want that to _ she wants, god forbid i do not want that to happen, hence our forever home, _ that to happen, hence our forever home her— that to happen, hence our forever home, her costs and needs would be metjust _ home, her costs and needs would be metjust like that home, her costs and needs would be met just like that but at the end home, her costs and needs would be metjust like that but at the end of the day— metjust like that but at the end of the day as— metjust like that but at the end of the day as a mother you want what is best for— the day as a mother you want what is best for your — the day as a mother you want what is best for your child. gf the day as a mother you want what is best for your child.— best for your child. of course you do, what best for your child. of course you do. what i _ best for your child. of course you do, what i said _ best for your child. of course you do, what i said like _ best for your child. of course you do, what i said like for— best for your child. of course you do, what i said like for you, - best for your child. of course you do, what i said like for you, the l do, what i said like for you, the emotional and physical demands, your own life? i emotional and physical demands, your own life? ., , ,, own life? i am tired, stressed, the wear and tear _ own life? i am tired, stressed, the wear and tear on _ own life? i am tired, stressed, the wear and tear on my _ own life? i am tired, stressed, the wear and tear on my own - own life? i am tired, stressed, the wear and tear on my own body - own life? i am tired, stressed, the wear and tear on my own body is l wear and tear on my own body is hard, _ wear and tear on my own body is hard. i_ wear and tear on my own body is hard. i have _ wear and tear on my own body is hard, i have had one hip replacement

which _ hard, i have had one hip replacement which has _ hard, i have had one hip replacement which has not gone well and the other— which has not gone well and the other hip — which has not gone well and the other hip still needs doing. i have gone _ other hip still needs doing. i have gone to— other hip still needs doing. i have gone to the social worker to ask for minimal— gone to the social worker to ask for minimal help, my husband works away and has _ minimal help, my husband works away and has to— minimal help, my husband works away and has to work away. nothing. you -et and has to work away. nothing. you get nothing — and has to work away. nothing. you get nothing. you know? it is and has to work away. nothing. you get nothing. you know?— get nothing. you know? it is max here. i totally _ get nothing. you know? it is max here. i totally resonate _ get nothing. you know? it is max here. i totally resonate with - get nothing. you know? it is maxj here. i totally resonate with what get nothing. you know? it is max. here. i totally resonate with what i am hearing. it is so tough. so tough on so many dimensions of our lives. the sad reality is we as parents tend to be isolated because we have to give so much care and attention and effort and money and everything into our children. and you try to plan for their lives. that into our children. and you try to plan for their lives.— plan for their lives. that you cannot, plan for their lives. that you cannot. can _ plan for their lives. that you cannot, can you? _ plan for their lives. that you cannot, can you? you - plan for their lives. that you cannot, can you? you mightj plan for their lives. that you i cannot, can you? you might be plan for their lives. that you - cannot, can you? you might be able to do a year— cannot, can you? you might be able to do a year or _ cannot, can you? you might be able to do a year or two _ cannot, can you? you might be able

to do a year or two in _ cannot, can you? you might be able to do a year or two in advance - cannot, can you? you might be able to do a year or two in advance if - to do a year or two in advance if you are lucky. 0ur particular journey, to a particular college, we live in bath, there is a college the other side of cardiff under us about an hour and three quarters to go there when we visit but we have another year and then he may have another year and then he may have another year and then he may have another year at college or he may not, we are thinking about planning for a residential placement for him but it is really hard. and i feel guilty, i really do. wait tell people, you need to walk in our shoes to understand how difficult this is. ., , ., ., ., this is. that is it, ciara can go three days — this is. that is it, ciara can go three days without _ this is. that is it, ciara can go three days without sleeping i this is. that is it, ciara can go l three days without sleeping and this is. that is it, ciara can go - three days without sleeping and she will be _ three days without sleeping and she will be hyper and people say should you work— will be hyper and people say should you work more hours but i cannot work _ you work more hours but i cannot work any— you work more hours but i cannot work any more hours. i need someone

to look— work any more hours. i need someone to look after _ work any more hours. i need someone to look after ciara and i cannot work _ to look after ciara and i cannot work because my body is deteriorating. i want to work and everything — deteriorating. i want to work and everything else but there is nothing to help _ everything else but there is nothing to help me — everything else but there is nothing to help me through work to be able to help me through work to be able to give _ to help me through work to be able to give her— to help me through work to be able to give her what she needs and don't you get, _ to give her what she needs and don't you get, she — to give her what she needs and don't you get, she gets her personal independence payment money but how far can _ independence payment money but how far can that— independence payment money but how far can that stretch? i have had to carry— far can that stretch? i have had to carry over — far can that stretch? i have had to carry over immutability vehicle because — carry over immutability vehicle because that showed up in price so that is— because that showed up in price so that is a _ because that showed up in price so that is a squished because she has a new fulcher, — that is a squished because she has a new fulcher, she does not use it all the time _ new fulcher, she does not use it all the time but — new fulcher, she does not use it all the time but it needs to be there because — the time but it needs to be there because she is visually impaired. everyone — because she is visually impaired. everyone wants to shun it on to somebody— everyone wants to shun it on to somebody else. and now provide you with any— somebody else. and now provide you with any answers.— somebody else. and now provide you with any answers. ciara, please come in. i know with any answers. ciara, please come in- i know when _ with any answers. ciara, please come in. i know when i _ with any answers. ciara, please come in. i know when i was _ with any answers. ciara, please come in. i know when i was younger, - with any answers. ciara, please come in. i know when i was younger, my i in. i know when i was younger, my parents _ in. i know when i was younger, my parents did — in. i know when i was younger, my parents did not— in. i know when i was younger, my parents did not know _ in. i know when i was younger, my parents did not know what - in. i know when i was younger, my parents did not know what a - in. i know when i was younger, my. parents did not know what a learning disability— parents did not know what a learning disability was — parents did not know what a learning disability was. it _ parents did not know what a learning disability was. it was _ parents did not know what a learning disability was. it was not _ parents did not know what a learning disability was. it was not until- parents did not know what a learning disability was. it was not until we i disability was. it was not until we -ot disability was. it was not until we got support— disability was. it was not until we got support that _ disability was. it was not until we got support that actually - disability was. it was not until we got support that actually my- disability was. it was not until we got support that actually my life i got support that actually my life

changed — got support that actually my life changed my— got support that actually my life changed my parents _ got support that actually my life changed my parents got - got support that actually my life j changed my parents got support got support that actually my life i changed my parents got support as well. changed my parents got support as welt but— changed my parents got support as welt but at— changed my parents got support as well. but at the _ changed my parents got support as well. but at the age _ changed my parents got support as well. but at the age of— changed my parents got support as well. but at the age of 16 _ changed my parents got support as well. but at the age of 16 my- changed my parents got support as well. but at the age of 16 my locall well. but at the age of 16 my local authority— well. but at the age of 16 my local authority basically— well. but at the age of 16 my local authority basically told _ well. but at the age of 16 my local authority basically told us - well. but at the age of 16 my local authority basically told us that i i authority basically told us that i was not — authority basically told us that i was not going _ authority basically told us that i was not going to _ authority basically told us that i was not going to get _ authority basically told us that i was not going to get support i authority basically told us that i i was not going to get support any more — was not going to get support any more so _ was not going to get support any more so from — was not going to get support any more so from the _ was not going to get support any more so from the age _ was not going to get support any more so from the age of- was not going to get support any more so from the age of 16, i- was not going to get support any| more so from the age of 16, i am was not going to get support any- more so from the age of 16, i am now 43, more so from the age of 16, i am now 43. so _ more so from the age of 16, i am now 43. so since _ more so from the age of 16, i am now 43. so since the — more so from the age of 16, i am now 43, so since the age _ more so from the age of 16, i am now 43, so since the age of— more so from the age of 16, i am now 43, so since the age of 16— more so from the age of 16, i am now 43, so since the age of 16 my- 43, so since the age of 16 my parents — 43, so since the age of 16 my parents have _ 43, so since the age of 16 my parents have had _ 43, so since the age of 16 my parents have had to - 43, so since the age of 16 my parents have had to support. 43, so since the age of 16 my. parents have had to support me, 43, so since the age of 16 my- parents have had to support me, they have had _ parents have had to support me, they have had to _ parents have had to support me, they have had to do — parents have had to support me, they have had to do all _ parents have had to support me, they have had to do all my— parents have had to support me, they have had to do all my support - have had to do all my support because — have had to do all my support because my— have had to do all my support because my local— have had to do all my support because my local authority i have had to do all my support. because my local authority told have had to do all my support i because my local authority told me have had to do all my support - because my local authority told me i am much _ because my local authority told me i am much too — because my local authority told me i am much too mild _ because my local authority told me i am much too mild and _ because my local authority told me i am much too mild and there - because my local authority told me i am much too mild and there will- because my local authority told me i am much too mild and there will not support— am much too mild and there will not support me — am much too mild and there will not support me at — am much too mild and there will not support me at all— am much too mild and there will not support me at all and _ am much too mild and there will not support me at all and basically - am much too mild and there will not support me at all and basically my. support me at all and basically my parents _ support me at all and basically my parents have — support me at all and basically my parents have had _ support me at all and basically my parents have had not— support me at all and basically my parents have had not only- support me at all and basically my parents have had not only to - support me at all and basically my parents have had not only to be i support me at all and basically myl parents have had not only to be my parents. _ parents have had not only to be my parents. they— parents have had not only to be my parents, they have _ parents have had not only to be my parents, they have had _ parents have had not only to be my parents, they have had to - parents have had not only to be my parents, they have had to be - parents have had not only to be my parents, they have had to be my. parents, they have had to be my cheerleaders, _ parents, they have had to be my cheerleaders, my _ parents, they have had to be my cheerleaders, my supporters, i parents, they have had to be myl cheerleaders, my supporters, my coaches— cheerleaders, my supporters, my coaches and — cheerleaders, my supporters, my coaches and luckily, _ cheerleaders, my supporters, my coaches and luckily, obviously, i. cheerleaders, my supporters, my. coaches and luckily, obviously, i am married _ coaches and luckily, obviously, i am married and — coaches and luckily, obviously, i am married and i— coaches and luckily, obviously, i am married and i have _ coaches and luckily, obviously, i am married and i have a _ coaches and luckily, obviously, i am married and i have a lovely- coaches and luckily, obviously, i am married and i have a lovely husband who supports — married and i have a lovely husband who supports me _ married and i have a lovely husband who supports me a _ married and i have a lovely husband who supports me a lot _ married and i have a lovely husband who supports me a lot which - married and i have a lovely husband who supports me a lot which is- who supports me a lot which is amazing — who supports me a lot which is amazing but, _ who supports me a lot which is amazing. but, you _ who supports me a lot which is amazing. but, you know, - who supports me a lot which is amazing. but, you know, i- who supports me a lot which isl amazing. but, you know, i have who supports me a lot which is- amazing. but, you know, i have had to rely— amazing. but, you know, i have had to rely on— amazing. but, you know, i have had to rety on my — amazing. but, you know, i have had to rely on my parents _ amazing. but, you know, i have had to rely on my parents every - amazing. but, you know, i have had to rely on my parents every time i l to rely on my parents every time i need _ to rely on my parents every time i need support, _ to rely on my parents every time i need support, i_ to rely on my parents every time i need support, i have _ to rely on my parents every time i need support, i have to— to rely on my parents every time i need support, i have to run- to rely on my parents every time i need support, i have to run to i to rely on my parents every time i i need support, i have to run to them. it need support, i have to run to them. it has _ need support, i have to run to them. it has been _ need support, i have to run to them. it has been such— need support, i have to run to them. it has been such a _ need support, i have to run to them. it has been such a big _ need support, i have to run to them. it has been such a big burden- need support, i have to run to them. it has been such a big burden for- it has been such a big burden for them _ it has been such a big burden for them now— it has been such a big burden for them now i _

it has been such a big burden for them. now i have _ it has been such a big burden for them. now i have less _ it has been such a big burden for them. now i have less support. it has been such a big burden for. them. now i have less support from them _ them. now i have less support from them which — them. now i have less support from them which is — them. now i have less support from them which is great _ them. now i have less support from them which is great but _ them. now i have less support from them which is great but you - them. now i have less support from them which is great but you know, i them which is great but you know, they have — them which is great but you know, they have had _ them which is great but you know, they have had to _ them which is great but you know, they have had to spend _ them which is great but you know, they have had to spend their- them which is great but you know, | they have had to spend their entire lives supporting _ they have had to spend their entire lives supporting me _ they have had to spend their entire lives supporting me because - they have had to spend their entire lives supporting me because i- they have had to spend their entire l lives supporting me because i cannot -et lives supporting me because i cannot get any— lives supporting me because i cannot get any extra — lives supporting me because i cannot get any extra support _ lives supporting me because i cannot get any extra support anywhere i lives supporting me because i cannot get any extra support anywhere elsel get any extra support anywhere else and i get any extra support anywhere else and i know. — get any extra support anywhere else and i know. we— get any extra support anywhere else and i know, we used _ get any extra support anywhere else and i know, we used to _ get any extra support anywhere else and i know, we used to have - and i know, we used to have screaming _ and i know, we used to have screaming matches - and i know, we used to have screaming matches at - and i know, we used to have screaming matches at each. and i know, we used to have i screaming matches at each other because — screaming matches at each other because i— screaming matches at each other because i did _ screaming matches at each other because i did not _ screaming matches at each other because i did not want _ screaming matches at each other because i did not want their- screaming matches at each other because i did not want their help| because i did not want their help but i _ because i did not want their help but i knew— because i did not want their help but i knew that _ because i did not want their help but i knew that i _ because i did not want their help but i knew that i needed - because i did not want their help but i knew that i needed it. i because i did not want their help but i knew that i needed it. so . because i did not want their help but i knew that i needed it. so ii but i knew that i needed it. sol know— but i knew that i needed it. sol know what— but i knew that i needed it. sol know what it _ but i knew that i needed it. sol know what it is _ but i knew that i needed it. sol know what it is like, _ but i knew that i needed it. sol know what it is like, i— but i knew that i needed it. sol know what it is like, i have i but i knew that i needed it. so i| know what it is like, i have been there _ know what it is like, i have been there we — know what it is like, i have been there we do _ know what it is like, i have been there. we do have _ know what it is like, i have been there. we do have a _ know what it is like, i have been there. we do have a mencap- know what it is like, i have been- there. we do have a mencap helpline, there. we do have a mencap helpline, the number— there. we do have a mencap helpline, the number is— there. we do have a mencap helpline, the number is on— there. we do have a mencap helpline, the number is on the _ there. we do have a mencap helpline, the number is on the website. - there. we do have a mencap helpline, the number is on the website. we i the number is on the website. we also have — the number is on the website. we also have a — the number is on the website. we also have a trust _ the number is on the website. we also have a trust company- the number is on the website. we also have a trust company set i the number is on the website. we also have a trust company set upl the number is on the website. we i also have a trust company set up at mencap _ also have a trust company set up at mencap as— also have a trust company set up at mencap as well— also have a trust company set up at mencap as well where _ also have a trust company set up at mencap as well where people - also have a trust company set up at mencap as well where people can . also have a trust company set up at i mencap as well where people can set ”p mencap as well where people can set up a trust _ mencap as well where people can set up a trust for — mencap as well where people can set up a trust for their— mencap as well where people can set up a trust for their loved _ mencap as well where people can set up a trust for their loved one - mencap as well where people can set up a trust for their loved one with i up a trust for their loved one with a learning — up a trust for their loved one with a learning disability— up a trust for their loved one with a learning disability so _ up a trust for their loved one with a learning disability so it- up a trust for their loved one with a learning disability so it is- up a trust for their loved one with a learning disability so it is wwwi a learning disability so it is www mencap — a learning disability so it is www mencap dirt _ a learning disability so it is www mencap dirt .uk. _ a learning disability so it is www mencap dirt .uk. lots _ a learning disability so it is www mencap dirt .uk. lots of- a learning disability so it is www- mencap dirt .uk. lots of information on the _ mencap dirt .uk. lots of information on the website — mencap dirt .uk. lots of information on the website so _ mencap dirt .uk. lots of information on the website so if _ mencap dirt .uk. lots of information on the website so if you _ mencap dirt .uk. lots of information on the website so if you need - on the website so if you need support— on the website so if you need support please _ on the website so if you need support please go— on the website so if you need support please go to - on the website so if you need support please go to the i on the website so if you need i support please go to the website on the website so if you need - support please go to the website on the information— support please go to the website on the information is— support please go to the website on the information is there. _ support please go to the website on the information is there.— support please go to the website on the information is there. thank you. emma, i the information is there. thank you. emma. i want _ the information is there. thank you. emma. i want to —

the information is there. thank you. emma, i want to keep _ the information is there. thank you. emma, i want to keep you - the information is there. thank you. emma, i want to keep you on i the information is there. thank you. emma, i want to keep you on the i the information is there. thank you. | emma, i want to keep you on the line and we will speak to helen now in st giles. i'm michelle in sutton coldfield. whether i managed to come to everybody before the news, weather and sport, do not worry, if you can come back after the news and sport. we are asking for your calls this morning, 08085 909693, we are hearing about the system already, plate spinning, frustration, the financial worries, all of the anxieties involved here, coping with the emotional and physical demands as well of caring for an individual with a disability. someone that you love that all of your heart and if you were watching on bbc to the snooker world championship is coming up snooker world championship is coming up from the crucible we are continuing this conversation right now on bbc two, bbc radio 5 live and

on bbc sounds. emma, the worry about the future, lots of people are addressing this, looking at the reactions we are getting. you 'ust do not knowfi reactions we are getting. you 'ust do not know for i reactions we are getting. you 'ust do not know for to i reactions we are getting. you 'ust do not know for to start. i reactions we are getting. you 'ust do not know for to start. we i reactions we are getting. you just do not know for to start. we have\ do not know for to start. we have both on a rundown bungalow to do that because i want ciara here, her stepdad once or here, want to look after her, there's been too many ghost stories about homes on the telly which i cannot bring myself to watch and i want to keep you here but i need help on keeping her here. and the needs are going to get greater with her. ciara is a tester, has cohens syndrome and is registered a severely sight impaired so a mixture of that, she is a cracking child. —— keera is autistic. it is tiring on me. the authorities do not see her as

visually impaired. but she does. you know? with her or to some, she mimics me a hell of a lot but i do not know how to do it, if my own health is deteriorating.— health is deteriorating. let's get some advice _ health is deteriorating. let's get some advice for— health is deteriorating. let's get some advice for you _ health is deteriorating. let's get some advice for you from - health is deteriorating. let's get | some advice for you from helen, helen, not necessarily advice but i am sure a world of empathy, helen in st giles, what do you think about what you are hearing so far? it breaks my heart, if i'm honest. we are _ it breaks my heart, if i'm honest. we are so— it breaks my heart, if i'm honest. we are so early in ourjourney, my daughter— we are so early in ourjourney, my daughter is— we are so early in ourjourney, my daughter is only two at the moment, she was_ daughter is only two at the moment, she was born during lockdown, so even _ she was born during lockdown, so even accessing support during that time period was difficult. so we had to fight— time period was difficult. so we had to fight from the very beginning 'ust to fight from the very beginning just to — to fight from the very beginning just to get her in front of health professionals. she has a rare genetic—

professionals. she has a rare genetic disorder, nobody will have heard _ genetic disorder, nobody will have heard of— genetic disorder, nobody will have heard of it. — genetic disorder, nobody will have heard of it, i hadn't heard of it until_ heard of it, i hadn't heard of it until we — heard of it, i hadn't heard of it until we got the diagnosisjust before — until we got the diagnosisjust before christmas, but what it means for her _ before christmas, but what it means for her is _ before christmas, but what it means for her is she is visually impaired, she will_ for her is she is visually impaired, she will probably never talk, she may never— she will probably never talk, she may never walk, she is definitely not going — may never walk, she is definitely not going to be able to live independently, she is severely autistic — independently, she is severely autistic. and just finding that out at two _ autistic. and just finding that out at two years, but then trying to access — at two years, but then trying to access the _ at two years, but then trying to access the support that she needs i’ilht access the support that she needs right now. — access the support that she needs right now, both myself and my husband — right now, both myself and my husband works, so she goes to nursery— husband works, so she goes to nursery full time, we have been blessed — nursery full time, we have been blessed with fantastic nursery staff that want _ blessed with fantastic nursery staff that want to give her the best, but she is— that want to give her the best, but she is hot— that want to give her the best, but she is not your typical almost three—year—old, and she needs one—on—one support. it took a year to get— one—on—one support. it took a year to get the _ one—on—one support. it took a year to get the programme in place, and it is hot— to get the programme in place, and it is not sufficient for what she needs. — it is not sufficient for what she needs, and we are just starting, so i dread _ needs, and we are just starting, so i dread to — needs, and we are just starting, so i dread to think what is coming, but

i dread to think what is coming, but i was _ i dread to think what is coming, but i was completely ignorant as to how this would _ i was completely ignorant as to how this would be, and it breaks you, i have _ this would be, and it breaks you, i have good — this would be, and it breaks you, i have good days and bad days. what are the bad — have good days and bad days. what are the bad days _ have good days and bad days. ttarusgt are the bad days like? have good days and bad days. “ta"usgt are the bad days like? you are have good days and bad days. "“tausgt are the bad days like? you are an intelligent and articulate woman, still talking about the labyrinth of the system, trying to find your way through it and to find out what the hell is going on, how you get to the other side. tell me about, if you would, just for everyone else, tell me about the bad days, what are they like? it i me about the bad days, what are they like? ., ~ , ., me about the bad days, what are they like? ., ~ i. ., .,, ~ like? if i take you to last week, we not the like? if i take you to last week, we got the confirmation _ like? if i take you to last week, we got the confirmation for _ like? if i take you to last week, we got the confirmation for our - got the confirmation for our daughter, she has been identified as having _ daughter, she has been identified as having high needs but will only get 15 hours _ having high needs but will only get 15 hours a — having high needs but will only get 15 hours a week of one—to—one support, — 15 hours a week of one—to—one support, even though she attends full-time, — support, even though she attends full—time, and any additional support— full—time, and any additional support over and above those 15 hours _ support over and above those 15 hours we — support over and above those 15 hours we will need to fund ourselves. and you sort of go into a

process— ourselves. and you sort of go into a process with — ourselves. and you sort of go into a process with his blind optimism that probably— process with his blind optimism that probably somebody is going to listen to you _ probably somebody is going to listen to you and _ probably somebody is going to listen to you and you are going to get a fair outcome, and then what happens is completely the opposite, and it's 'ust is completely the opposite, and it's iust starts— is completely the opposite, and it's just starts to make you question your— just starts to make you question your humanity. she is a very vulnerable child, but she is a tovety— vulnerable child, but she is a lovely kid, a happy child, irrespective of all the challenges that she — irrespective of all the challenges that she has, and it breaks my heart to think— that she has, and it breaks my heart to think that— that she has, and it breaks my heart to think that she is not going to .et to think that she is not going to get what — to think that she is not going to get what she needs unless we are here to _ get what she needs unless we are here to provide it for her. you know. — here to provide it for her. you know, every doctor's appointment is heartbreaking, because it only focuses — heartbreaking, because it only focuses on what she is not capable of doing. _ focuses on what she is not capable of doing, rather than the things she is learning — of doing, rather than the things she is learning to do, irrespective of her challenges. can is learning to do, irrespective of her challenges.— is learning to do, irrespective of her challenges. is learning to do, irrespective of her challenues. . . ,, ., her challenges. can i come back in a moment or— her challenges. can i come back in a moment or two? — her challenges. can i come back in a moment or two? i _ her challenges. can i come back in a moment or two? i know _ her challenges. can i come back in a moment or two? i know you - her challenges. can i come back in a moment or two? i know you have i her challenges. can i come back in a| moment or two? i know you have got more to tell me... {lit moment or two? i know you have got more to tell me. . .— moment or two? i know you have got more to tell me. . ._ we - more to tell me... of course! we will be here _ more to tell me. .. of course! we will be here all— more to tell me... of course! we will be here all day, _ more to tell me... of course! we will be here all day, astonishingl will be here all day, astonishing contributions, get in touch. we are asking about learning disabilities — your world. asking about learning disabilities — yourworld. it asking about learning disabilities — your world. it is 9:34am. chloe

maccombe and here is the news from karishma patel. medical leaders are urging the hovernment and junior doctors to bring in a third party to help broker a deal in their pay dispute in england. the academy of medical royal colleges said prolonged industrial action was having a serious impact on patient care. the home secretary is expected to be given new powers to make it easier to deport migrants. under the change to the illegal migration bill, the home office would be able to ignore some injunctions from the european court of human rights. thousands of families with children who have disabilities are at risk of losing money in their child trust funds. a new report suggests there could be over 80,000 accounts, containing a total of £210 million, that can only be accessed through a lengthy court process. the government said it was simplifying the process.

student complaints about university courses in england and wales reached a record high last year for the fourth year in a row. the office of the independent adjudicator received 2,850 complaints. universities uk said most students had highly positive experiences. manchester city set up a champions league semifinal with real madrid as they overcame bayern munich in the last eight. a h draw in germany last night saw them through 4—1 on aggregate. elsewhere, inter beat benfica to set up a milan derby in the other semifinal. in the championship last night, playoff—chasing coventry have their goalkeeper ben wilson to thank. he scored a stoppage—time equaliser in their i—i draw at blackburn. there's a nervous wait this morning on the fitness of england captain leah williamson after she suffered what looked like a knee injury in arsenal's women's super league defeat to manchester united last night. england begin their world cup campaign in just over three months“ time. kyren wilson says he'll always be a part of history now after making a maximum 147 at the world snooker championship yesterday. it's only the 13th ever at the tournament.

tiger woods says he's had successful ankle fusion surgery following his recent withdrawal from the masters at augusta. some more contributions coming up, amazing once so far talking about learning disabilities, your world, trying to get through the system, trying to get through the system, trying to get through the system, trying to navigate it, and all the frustrations of the system. let me just tell you this, where are we? we are here, the association of school

and college leaders has said it is going to hold a formal ballot for national strike action in england for the first time in its history overfunding, pay and conditions. i just wanted to tell you that this morning. helen is there, chalfont st giles, michelle and sutton coldfield, and andrew turner, who was campaigning to help families go through the process of helping families access money in trust funds. with you in a second, andrew, i know you have got to go in a moment or two, but, i know you have got to go in a moment ortwo, but, helen, you i know you have got to go in a moment or two, but, helen, you were in full flow, and michelle is with us as well. hi, michelle. hi. in full flow, and michelle is with us as well. hi, michelle. hi, there! helen, us as well. hi, michelle. hi, there! helen. do — us as well. hi, michelle. hi, there! helen. do you _ us as well. hi, michelle. hi, there! helen, do you have _ us as well. hi, michelle. hi, there! helen, do you have people - us as well. hi, michelle. hi, there! helen, do you have people to - us as well. hi, michelle. hi, there! helen, do you have people to talk| us as well. hi, michelle. hi, there! i helen, do you have people to talk to about this? you are talking to millions about it here, which is great, and i'm sure people are learning, but is there any time for yourself to share this stuff, health

groups and facebook groups that you can get some fellow feeling and some camaraderie? do you have that in your life as well?— camaraderie? do you have that in your life as well? there are, and i have to say _ your life as well? there are, and i have to say thank _ your life as well? there are, and i have to say thank goodness - your life as well? there are, and i have to say thank goodness for i your life as well? there are, and i - have to say thank goodness for them. you don't really get... i don't know if this experience is the same for everyone, but as parents, certainly going through the kind of stasis in the medical system, no—one really asks us how we are doing. there is a lot of focus on our daughter, rightly so, but we tend to get ignored. you don't often get signposted to do anything, so you have to find it yourself, but there are amazing groups of parents with the same condition, children with the same condition, children with the same condition as my daughter, which managed to find on facebook, and thank goodness for them, because you get better advice from them than you get better advice from them than you do, really, from the medical professionals. and that is not the fault of the medical profession, these arejust very fault of the medical profession, these are just very different challenges... these are just very different challenges. . .— these are just very different challenges... no, they really

understand. _ challenges... no, they really understand. exactly. - challenges. .. no, they really understand. exactly. but- challenges... no, they really l understand. exactly. but thank noodness understand. exactly. but thank goodness for— understand. exactly. but thank goodness for charities - understand. exactly. but thank goodness for charities like - understand. exactly. but thank- goodness for charities like mencap too, they give you all the advice to help navigate through. i am too, they give you all the advice to help navigate through.— help navigate through. i am so leased help navigate through. i am so pleased you — help navigate through. i am so pleased you are _ help navigate through. i am so pleased you are able _ help navigate through. i am so pleased you are able to - help navigate through. i am so pleased you are able to come l help navigate through. i am so - pleased you are able to come back, thank you very much indeed. and all power to you, all strength to you, helen. coming up, michelle, and a word from andrew and a second, and kelly from brum, so many texts, thank you for putting your thoughts down and sending them to us, fascinating conversation. we are through until ten on this one, then at ten o'clock, let me tell you what we are discussing in the next hour, do we need voter id? there was a huge response, we had our mps panel yesterday, and we had bridget phillipson, damian green, and we had christine jardine, from labour, the conservatives and the lib dems respectively, and the whole issue of voter id came up, and it was lively, so we thought we would put it out to

tender, put it over to you later. the upcoming local elections in may will be the first where voters are required to show voter i day. it means that in order to vote, you will need to show your passport, driving licence, older person's bus pass, 60 plus oyster card, i've got one but don't tell anyone! and if you are one of the estimated 2 million people without id, you can sign up for a certificate. but take—up has been low, around i%. the government's argument, as damian green said yesterday, it will prevent voter fraud, keep our democracy secure. opponents are worried that it risks locking huge numbers out of the democratic process. what do you think? do we need voter id? you can call or text. that is coming up at ten o'clock. andrew, andy turner, we have heard some heartbreaking stories from

parents. i some heartbreaking stories from arents. ., . , . some heartbreaking stories from arents. ., ., , ., parents. itotally agree, nicky, it is heartbreaking, _ parents. itotally agree, nicky, it is heartbreaking, and _ parents. itotally agree, nicky, it is heartbreaking, and sadly - parents. itotally agree, nicky, it is heartbreaking, and sadly i - parents. itotally agree, nicky, it is heartbreaking, and sadly i am | is heartbreaking, and sadly i am afraid it is not the first time i have heard the stories, and obviously we have had experiences with my tea has well over the last ten plus years. one of the challenges we have is that we hear so many things from government about trying to simplify things but the reality is, excuse me, with funding shortages in the nhs and in social services, there is a kind of almost rush towards more bureaucracy to try and manage the issue of scarcity. and i think that is something that needs to be looked at urgently. it just seems ludicrous that parents are almost having to exaggerate situations to get what they need for their child, when in many cases those needs are so obvious. that has got to change, there has got to be more effort put into this, notjust words. more effort put into this, not 'ust words. ., ~' , ., . more effort put into this, not 'ust words. ., ~ . ~' ., words. thank you, andrew, i know you have a busy — words. thank you, andrew, i know you have a busy day _ words. thank you, andrew, i know you have a busy day talking _ words. thank you, andrew, i know you have a busy day talking about -

words. thank you, andrew, i know you have a busy day talking about this, - have a busy day talking about this, it is great that you are getting the message out, andrew turner, you have spent so much time, i appreciate that. kelly in cwmbran, michelle, you have been waiting ages, thank you! what about the process, what about the system? i you! what about the process, what about the system?— about the system? i mean, i think ou about the system? i mean, i think you mentioned — about the system? i mean, i think you mentioned i _ about the system? i mean, i think you mentioned i was _ about the system? i mean, i think you mentioned i was in _ about the system? i mean, i think you mentioned i was in sutton - you mentioned i was in sutton coldfield, _ you mentioned i was in sutton coldfield, i am you mentioned i was in sutton coldfield, lam in you mentioned i was in sutton coldfield, i am in haywards heath. 0h, coldfield, i am in haywards heath. 0h. i_ coldfield, i am in haywards heath. 0h. i am _ coldfield, i am in haywards heath. oh, i am sorry! tell coldfield, i am in haywards heath. 0h. i am sorry!— coldfield, i am in haywards heath. oh, i am sorry! tell me about your world. 0k. — oh, i am sorry! tell me about your world- ok. so _ oh, i am sorry! tell me about your world. ok, so my _ oh, i am sorry! tell me about your world. ok, so my youngest- oh, i am sorry! tell me about your i world. ok, so my youngest daughter, alana is 20. — world. ok, so my youngest daughter, alana is 20. she _ world. ok, so my youngest daughter, alana is 20, she was _ world. ok, so my youngest daughter, alana is 20, she was born _ world. ok, so my youngest daughter, alana is 20, she was born with - world. ok, so my youngest daughter, alana is 20, she was born with an - alana is 20, she was born with an extremely rare chromosomal condition, she is severely mentally delayed, physically delayed, and she is nonverbal. she was only supposed to live to about 18 months or be

severely bedridden.— to live to about 18 months or be severely bedridden. thankfully, none ofthat severely bedridden. thankfully, none of that has happened, _ severely bedridden. thankfully, none of that has happened, she _ severely bedridden. thankfully, none of that has happened, she is - severely bedridden. thankfully, none of that has happened, she isjust - severely bedridden. thankfully, none of that has happened, she isjust a i of that has happened, she is just a wonderful human being, a great sense of humour, very sociable, and loves life. �* ., of humour, very sociable, and loves life. . . ., , , a of humour, very sociable, and loves life. ~ . , ~ ., life. and what has it been like for ou life. and what has it been like for you making _ life. and what has it been like for you making life — life. and what has it been like for you making life as _ life. and what has it been like for you making life as good - life. and what has it been like for you making life as good as - life. and what has it been like for you making life as good as it - life. and what has it been like for you making life as good as it can| life. and what has it been like for i you making life as good as it can be for her? ~ ., , ., , ., for her? well, as other parents have said, it is extremely _ for her? well, as other parents have said, it is extremely hard _ for her? well, as other parents have said, it is extremely hard work, - for her? well, as other parents have said, it is extremely hard work, it i said, it is extremely hard work, it is exhausting, it never stops, there is exhausting, it never stops, there is very little respite. it is a full—time job. is very little respite. it is a full—timejob. you know, we have actually gone through the process of applying to the court of protection, and it is a ridiculous process, you know, it is long, it is expensive, and it is not fair.— know, it is long, it is expensive, and it is not fair. and as we were sa inc and it is not fair. and as we were saying early _ and it is not fair. and as we were saying early on. _ and it is not fair. and as we were saying early on, as _ and it is not fair. and as we were saying early on, as people i and it is not fair. and as we were saying early on, as people were l saying early on, as people were saying, it is yet another brick

wall. it saying, it is yet another brick wall. , . , , saying, it is yet another brick wall. , ., , , ., wall. it is, absolutely. i mean, there are _ wall. it is, absolutely. i mean, there are four— wall. it is, absolutely. i mean, there are four forms _ wall. it is, absolutely. i mean, there are four forms that i wall. it is, absolutely. i mean, there are four forms that you i wall. it is, absolutely. i mean, i there are four forms that you have two fairly and that are not straightforward, as forms never are, and they are never two pages. and one of the forms, we had to get the doctor to sign, because that is about mental capacity, so you have to send those forms off with a cheque for over £300, it then took eight months for us to be deputies. you then have to pay a £25 bond, deputy bond, which is like an insurance policy in case you must choose the person's funds. you then have to pay £100 to the office of the public guardian, because they actually supervise you. then there are numerous e—mails and telephone conversations, and we actually thought we were applying to the court of protection to access

alana“s child trust fund, and that would be it, but what we did not realise is that all her money her benefits, has to come under the court of protection. so having managed her benefits since she was two years old, i am now being supervised. so i have to keep receipts of everything, either physical receipts or internet, half to submit a yearly report. that includes one year's worth of statements. so someone now is looking at what i spend on my daughter, when the no—one has ever questioned that before. daughter, when the no-one has ever questioned that before.— questioned that before. yeah. some text. my wonderful— questioned that before. yeah. some text. my wonderful person _ questioned that before. yeah. some text. my wonderful person without l text. my wonderful person without learning disability died six years ago, i cannot ourjoint bank account until he comes in with me to sign, he wouldn't be able to do this even

if he was alive. there is nothing in the account, but i'm still receiving bank statements, it is very upsetting. that is as appalling as it is bizarre. another text, this is so important, it needs highlighting more regularly, these fabulous parents, kelly in cwmbran, rosemary in chesterfield, good morning. kelly, we are asking people about their world, what is yours light? tell us about your little boy as well. ., .. tell us about your little boy as well. . ,, , ., ., ., tell us about your little boy as well. . ~' ., . , , well. thank you for having me, yes, well. thank you for having me, yes, we have got — well. thank you for having me, yes, we have got an _ well. thank you for having me, yes, we have got an eight-year-old i well. thank you for having me, yes, we have got an eight-year-old little we have got an eight—year—old little boy diagnosed with autism, similar stories with others, global developmental delay and a few other issues. i have to say, as going through the diagnosis process when he was three years old, we couldn't have enough support. the nhs, the local authority, the nursery, they was all there to help us through the process, and then shortly after diagnosis, everything stops. and

then you are on the constant battlefield of doing internet research, speaking to other parents carers of what help and support is there. but the reason why i contacted your show this morning was because we had a bit of a crisis point over the easter break, when my son's respite is only during term time, and a time when they are off school and out of routine is when i need support more than ever. so, yeah! sort of really going through the process of this, every end of term is getting more difficult as he gets older and his behaviour changes, as he gets older, i am getting older! and there is going to be a point that breaks, which our local authority doesn't want to seem to assist with, no matter how many times we found them, really. yeah, ou are in times we found them, really. yeah, you are in contact, _ times we found them, really. yeah, you are in contact, but _ times we found them, really. yeah, you are in contact, but again, i times we found them, really. yeah, you are in contact, but again, it i times we found them, really. yeah, you are in contact, but again, it is l you are in contact, but again, it is just a frustrating process. so many people are telling us about, you

know, as life goes on, as the years go by. know, as life goes on, as the years go by, the anxiety about the future, what on earth is going to happen in five, ten, 15 years?— what on earth is going to happen in five, ten, 15 years?- telli five, ten, 15 years? exactly. tell us about that. _ five, ten, 15 years? exactly. tell us about that. it _ five, ten, 15 years? exactly. tell us about that. it took _ five, ten, 15 years? exactly. tell us about that. it took five i five, ten, 15 years? exactly. tell us about that. it took five years | five, ten, 15 years? exactly. tell. us about that. it took five years up to this point. _ us about that. it took five years up to this point. i— us about that. it took five years up to this point, i would _ us about that. it took five years up to this point, i would like - us about that. it took five years up to this point, i would like to i us about that. it took five years up to this point, i would like to say i to this point, i would like to say mainly because of the pandemic, it might have delayed, but he was struggling in mainstream, and we finally managed to get him into an additional needs place, which is starting to thrive and settle in. but again, it is only two years before i must start looking at another fight for his high school years, where is he going to go for that? what evidence do i need? and again, just completely seeing my son as a negative in order to prove to people who do not know him what support he needs, whereas, you know, day by day i am trying to see the positives cut the deficit was the

word we heard earlier. that is right, i was trying to think of the word i was speaking along there. yeah, i must get the gentleman's name right who said it, it was somebody in the first half hour, i am so sorry, i think it was max in bath, i think so, apologies if it wasn't and it was someone else, but what a word, it stopped me in my tracks. it what a word, it stopped me in my tracks. ., , what a word, it stopped me in my tracks. . , ., tracks. it did hit, that is what encouraged _ tracks. it did hit, that is what encouraged me _ tracks. it did hit, that is what encouraged me to _ tracks. it did hit, that is what encouraged me to call- tracks. it did hit, that is what encouraged me to call in, i tracks. it did hit, that is what i encouraged me to call in, because it is that it is such a short, strong mode, so powerful at the same time when it comes to getting the support in terms of getting the support we need now and for the future. rosemary is with us as well, hi, what would you like to tell us, kelly is still there and listening with great understanding. mm-hmm.

well, m with great understanding. mm-hmm. well. my son — with great understanding. mm-hmm. well. my son is _ with great understanding. mm-hmm. well, my son is 53 _ with great understanding. mm-hmm. well, my son is 53 now, _ with great understanding. mm-hmm. well, my son is 53 now, i _ with great understanding. mm-hmm. well, my son is 53 now, i have i with great understanding. mm-hmm. well, my son is 53 now, i have had i well, my son is 53 now, i have had 53 years _ well, my son is 53 now, i have had 53 years to— well, my son is 53 now, i have had 53 years to look after him, i will be 73— 53 years to look after him, i will be 73 in— 53 years to look after him, i will be 73 in a — 53 years to look after him, i will be 73 in a month. the struggle doesn't — be 73 in a month. the struggle doesn't stop. at the end of the day, he is _ doesn't stop. at the end of the day, he is still— doesn't stop. at the end of the day, he is still very immature, but as i say. _ he is still very immature, but as i say. a _ he is still very immature, but as i say, a loving, friendly, happy boy. but all— say, a loving, friendly, happy boy. but all his— say, a loving, friendly, happy boy. but all his life he has had to struggle. and believe you me, i have had no _ struggle. and believe you me, i have had no respite. if i ask the council for respite — had no respite. if i ask the council for respite here, theyjust turn around — for respite here, theyjust turn around and say, you have got to pay for it _ around and say, you have got to pay for it i_ around and say, you have got to pay for it i am — around and say, you have got to pay for it lam on— around and say, you have got to pay for it. i am on benefits, i am a pensioner _ for it. i am on benefits, i am a pensioner i_ for it. i am on benefits, i am a pensioner. i actually look after him, _ pensioner. i actually look after him. me — pensioner. i actually look after him, me and my mother, until she died, _ him, me and my mother, until she died. there — him, me and my mother, until she died, there was the three of us in the house. — died, there was the three of us in the house. i— died, there was the three of us in the house, lam died, there was the three of us in the house, i am disabled died, there was the three of us in the house, lam disabled myself, and you the house, iam disabled myself, and you worry— the house, lam disabled myself, and you worry what is going to happen to them _ you worry what is going to happen to them when _ you worry what is going to happen to them when we are gone.— you worry what is going to happen to them when we are gone. yeah. you get

to the point— them when we are gone. yeah. you get to the point where _ them when we are gone. yeah. you get to the point where you _ them when we are gone. ueza"u you get to the point where you are frightened to die. it is unbelievable. he has now been diagnosed, or not diagnosed, but they say— diagnosed, or not diagnosed, but they say he has got a disease which _ they say he has got a disease which... they cannot put a label on him, _ which... they cannot put a label on him. because— which... they cannot put a label on him, because he has got... everything is a battle. his health, getting _ everything is a battle. his health, getting him help, getting him a diagnosis, it has been 53 years of battles _ diagnosis, it has been 53 years of battles. and it is a battle. and if we don't — battles. and it is a battle. and if we don't battle for them, who is going _ we don't battle for them, who is going to? — we don't battle for them, who is going to? and i mean, these homes that have _ going to? and i mean, these homes that have been set up i mean, 40 odd years— that have been set up i mean, 40 odd years ago— that have been set up i mean, 40 odd years ago he — that have been set up i mean, 40 odd years ago he was in a residential school, — years ago he was in a residential school, three days a week, and he was abused — school, three days a week, and he was abused. now, this is 40 years ago. _ was abused. now, this is 40 years ago. and _ was abused. now, this is 40 years ago, and still the same thing is happening. it is as if people with

learning — happening. it is as if people with learning disabilities quite frankly are not— learning disabilities quite frankly are not important. to government or to others. you know, if you take him to others. you know, if you take him to the _ to others. you know, if you take him to the hospital, they turn around and say. — to the hospital, they turn around and say, you can look after him but yourself~ _ and say, you can look after him but ourself. ., , and say, you can look after him but ourself. . , . and say, you can look after him but yourself-_ 0h. i yourself. have they said that? oh, es, yourself. have they said that? oh, yes. when — yourself. have they said that? oh, yes. when he _ yourself. have they said that? oh, yes, when he had _ yourself. have they said that? oh, yes, when he had a _ yourself. have they said that? oh, yes, when he had a fit, _ yourself. have they said that? oh, yes, when he had a fit, they i yourself. have they said that? oh, yes, when he had a fit, they said, | yes, when he had a fit, they said, he is _ yes, when he had a fit, they said, he is not — yes, when he had a fit, they said, he is not settling here, you are better— he is not settling here, you are better taking him home, you know him best. better taking him home, you know him best~ that— better taking him home, you know him best~ that is— better taking him home, you know him best. that is all you get. and quite honestly. — best. that is all you get. and quite honestly. i— best. that is all you get. and quite honestly, i mean until recently, when _ honestly, i mean until recently, when i — honestly, i mean until recently, when i got _ honestly, i mean until recently, when i got a lovely nurse that comes in roughly— when i got a lovely nurse that comes in roughly once a fortnight, a dimension is, and she is helping us, but that— dimension is, and she is helping us, but that is— dimension is, and she is helping us, but that is the first we have had. —— a dementia nurse. and it we are talking _ —— a dementia nurse. and it we are talking 50 — —— a dementia nurse. and it we are talking 50 odd years. 50 -- a dementia nurse. and it we are talking 50 odd years.— -- a dementia nurse. and it we are talking 50 odd years. 50 years, and ou said talking 50 odd years. 50 years, and you said you _ talking 50 odd years. 50 years, and you said you are — talking 50 odd years. 50 years, and you said you are afraid _ talking 50 odd years. 50 years, and you said you are afraid to _ talking 50 odd years. 50 years, and you said you are afraid to die. i talking 50 odd years. 50 years, and you said you are afraid to die. he i you said you are afraid to die. he went crying, and i kept saying there was something wrong. they said, oh,

well. _ was something wrong. they said, oh, well. he _ was something wrong. they said, oh, well, he won't live long. that is the same — well, he won't live long. that is the same when they go to the dr's, they discussed things in front of him. _ they discussed things in front of him. and — they discussed things in front of him, and quite frankly you would rather— him, and quite frankly you would rather he — him, and quite frankly you would rather he didn't know. because they cannot— rather he didn't know. because they cannot cope — rather he didn't know. because they cannot cope the way we can. their understanding isn't the same. he has been mugged in the past, and he has put up _ been mugged in the past, and he has put up with— been mugged in the past, and he has put up with it all with a smile on his face. — put up with it all with a smile on his face, and people around town say. _ his face, and people around town say. you — his face, and people around town say, you never see jimmy his face, and people around town say, you never see jimmy without his mum _ say, you never see jimmy without his mum or— say, you never see jimmy without his mum or rosemary without jimmy. because _ mum or rosemary without jimmy. because i— mum or rosemary without jimmy. because i don't have a life. i can't io because i don't have a life. i can't go out _ because i don't have a life. i can't go out at — because i don't have a life. i can't go out at night and leave him. but as soon— go out at night and leave him. but as soon as — go out at night and leave him. but as soon as you get to your pension age. _ as soon as you get to your pension age. you _ as soon as you get to your pension age, you don't get no carers. it stops. _ age, you don't get no carers. it stops. wow, listen... you know, i

really— stops. wow, listen... you know, i really feel— stops. wow, listen... you know, i really feel sorry for the people that have got the youngsters now come _ that have got the youngsters now come up — that have got the youngsters now come up with the struggle, because i know. _ come up with the struggle, because i know. i_ come up with the struggle, because i know. i have — come up with the struggle, because i know, i have been there. you have been _ know, i have been there. you have been there — know, i have been there. you have been there for 53 years. rosemary, wow. _ been there for 53 years. rosemary, wow. it _ been there for 53 years. rosemary, wow. it is _ been there for 53 years. rosemary, wow. it is so — been there for 53 years. rosemary, wow, it is so good you got in touch _ wow, it is so good you got in touch... thank you very much. rosemary. _ touch... thank you very much. rosemary, thank you very much, and i hope, you know, things work out and... i will remember the stuff that you have said for a long time. afraid to die. i that you have said for a long time. afraid to die.— afraid to die. i will say one thing. let me just _ afraid to die. i will say one thing. let me just say — afraid to die. i will say one thing. let me just say this _ afraid to die. i will say one thing. let me just say this to _ afraid to die. i will say one thing. let me just say this to the i afraid to die. i will say one thing. i let me just say this to the viewers. we are _ let me just say this to the viewers. we are not— let me just say this to the viewers. we are not in— let me just say this to the viewers. we are not in victorian times, but we are _ we are not in victorian times, but we are acting like we are. they shouldn't— we are acting like we are. they shouldn't be locked away, they have a right _ shouldn't be locked away, they have a right to _ shouldn't be locked away, they have a right to be on the streets, like everybody — a right to be on the streets, like everybody else. and that is my last word _ everybody else. and that is my last word i— everybody else. and that is my last word. ., , ., ,, everybody else. and that is my last word. .,, ., ,, ., ., word. i hope we talk again, rosemary. _ word. i hope we talk again, rosemary, thank— word. i hope we talk again, rosemary, thank you i word. i hope we talk again, rosemary, thank you very l word. i hope we talk again, i rosemary, thank you very much indeed, i cannot thank you enough.

brett is there in hottest and, hi, brett, what i would say to everyone, if you are looking for support on anything we have discussed this morning, much of it has been extremely upsetting, you can find details of organisations if you go to the bbc action line web page. iii. to the bbc action line web page. hi, brett. to the bbc action line web page. h , brett. hi, nicky, how are you? thanks firstly for having this conversation, because there was a lot of people in our situation, and sometimes you do feel like the silent majority, to coin a phrase, and it is so true, there are so many parents like us out there. my wife and 1's story is that we had two boys who are six now, they are both autistic, they have both got global development delay, and we struggled from day one, really. you know, it is notjust the physical care and the fact that you have to be sell on

it all the time, but also the massive financial burden for us to access the correct education for the boys, it cost us 25,000 plus in tribunal fees alone cut tribunal fees? yes, we took the local authority to court because they were trying to add they were suggesting that the boys were able to cope in mainstream school, in a specialist setting, and we knew from speaking to the teachers that they simply were not, they were not coping well at all, they were not coping well at all, they were not coping well at all, they were becoming withdrawn, they were upset. did they were becoming withdrawn, they were uset. , ,, they were becoming withdrawn, they were uset. , i. ., were upset. did you have conversations, _ were upset. did you have conversations, without i were upset. did you have - conversations, without mentioning the local authority, did you have conversations, you know, one—on—one conversations, you know, one—on—one conversations, were you in the room with those people at the time? what was that like? 50 with those people at the time? what was that like?— was that like? so it is difficult, the first time _ was that like? so it is difficult, the first time i _ was that like? so it is difficult, the first time i kind _ was that like? so it is difficult, the first time i kind of - was that like? so it is difficult, i the first time i kind of conversed with them was on the tribunal, and none of the people sitting on the tribunal had met the boys, because

there is such a sort of in—out culture at a lot of the authorities that no—one really gets to need to know the needs of the children. i'm not blaming those people personally, but that is just the system, not set “p but that is just the system, not set up to... it is one of the reasons we won so clear cut, but the problem was we needed to pay for solicitors“ fees out of our own pocket, and experts to do, you know, research on the boys, independent reports, all these things cost money. and then on top of that, you have got things like the everyday issues of parents like the everyday issues of parents like ourselves, you are chronically sleep deprived, you have a mountain of paperwork, you are still trying to earn money and pay the mortgages, and all that stress builds up, and thatis and all that stress builds up, and that is why there is high levels of things like ptsd and depression and things like ptsd and depression and

things like ptsd and depression and things like that in parents of children with additional needs, because the sheer survival is... i mentioned earlier, i don't know if you heard this, this us study that mothers of adolescence and adults with autism have levels of stress among comparable with soldiers in combat, so what you are going through, goodness only knows. we have got about one minute, tell me about your boys, tell me about your love. . about your boys, tell me about your love. , ., ., , love. listen, we love them dearly, and they are _ love. listen, we love them dearly, and they are an — love. listen, we love them dearly, and they are an absolute - love. listen, we love them dearly, and they are an absolute pleasure| love. listen, we love them dearly, i and they are an absolute pleasure to have around, and they bring happiness to everyone... erm... but it isjust tough. happiness to everyone... erm... but it is just tough. it is tough, you know? i was diagnosed with ptsd recently. i thought it was a soldier's illness. but yeah, it happens, you know? so what i would say to anyone listening, if you are feeling that the way we have felt,

you know, reach out, go and sought counselling, try and get some help. because it is not easy. irate counselling, try and get some help. because it is not easy.— because it is not easy. we need to talk about this _ because it is not easy. we need to talk about this a _ because it is not easy. we need to talk about this a lot, _ because it is not easy. we need to talk about this a lot, don't - because it is not easy. we need to talk about this a lot, don't we? i i talk about this a lot, don't we? i think so, i really do. and diagnosis is going upwards. so we need to address it quickly. rags is going upwards. so we need to address it quickly. as understanding increases, absolutely, _ address it quickly. as understanding increases, absolutely, yeah. - address it quickly. as understanding | increases, absolutely, yeah. agreed. thank ou increases, absolutely, yeah. agreed. thank you for— increases, absolutely, yeah. agreed. thank you for talking _ increases, absolutely, yeah. agreed. thank you for talking about _ increases, absolutely, yeah. agreed. thank you for talking about it. i thank you for talking about it. rosemary, kelly, michelle, amazing contributions. let mejust rosemary, kelly, michelle, amazing contributions. let me just remind you about the bbc action line on the website if you are looking for any support, you will find a great list of resources and organisations there. this is the nation's phone in with me, nicky campbell.

in this hour, yesterday we had our mps panel and it got quite fiery, a huge response yesterday. the upcoming local elections in may in england are the first where voters will be required to show photo id. it will apply to uk general elections as well. so this means in order to voter you'll need to show your passport, or driving license or some travel documents... such as older persons bus pas, 60—plus oyster card, if you have them. but if you're one of the estimated 2—million people without a valid form of id you can sign up for a voter authority certificate — although the uptake has been low — around 1%. the government's argument —

as conservative mp damian green told me yesterday — is this will prevent voter fraud and keep our democracy secure. then of course we should be doing it. so what do you think? do we need voter id? and here is the news with commissioner patel. nicky, thank you. —— commissioner patel. medical leaders are urging the government and junior doctors to bring in a third party — to help broker a deal in their pay dispute in england. the academy of medical royal colleges said prolonged industrial action — was having a serious impact on patient care. the association of school and college leaders teaching union — is holding its first

formal strike ballot — in england. the ballot will happen this term — and strike action would likely happen in the autumn. the government is expected to publish changes to the illegal migration bill — which would make it easier to deport migrants. under the amendment, the home secretary would be able to ignore some injunctions — from the european court of human rights. wh smith has said that sales surged in the six months to february — as travellers returned airports and train stations. pre—tax profits more than doubled — from the previous six months. the chain plans to open 120 new shops. we voted for it, in the collective sense, how our democracy works because it was in the conservative party manifesto in 2019.

technically. we knew about it, in northern ireland, they have had voter ids since 2003, they miss expression back in the day in those parts, vote early, vote often. is there any evidence of voter fraud, do we need this? can't voter id denying legitimate voters, will it disenfranchise people, and does it discriminate, is it expensive, is it a problem that needs fixing? or is it, it is all about the purity and echo they see in the majesty of democracy, of course when you have voter id. angela epsteinjoins us. i'm down as chief executive of electoral reform, good morning. is this a problem, angela, is it

necessary, i will play some of what our mps said yesterday but said out your thoughts on this.— our mps said yesterday but said out your thoughts on this. thank you so much. your thoughts on this. thank you so much- the — your thoughts on this. thank you so much. the first _ your thoughts on this. thank you so much. the first thing _ your thoughts on this. thank you so much. the first thing i _ your thoughts on this. thank you so much. the first thing i would i your thoughts on this. thank you so much. the first thing i would say i your thoughts on this. thank you so much. the first thing i would say is | much. the first thing i would say is it troubles me the notion of identity, such a toxic source of conversation in this country. i was one of the people that applied for an optional id card, you probably remember when the labour party introduced the scheme in 2009, it was nothing to do with my political inclinations ijust was nothing to do with my political inclinations i just wanted was nothing to do with my political inclinations ijust wanted a portable way to prove my identity without carrying my passport and the scheme was jumped in 2011 for probably some of the reasons you expressed on the day, the notion of id being somehow a toxic force, why do we have to give of ourselves too much but apart from the argument you have outlined about voter fraud and the importance for democracy, we surrender information about ourselves every day. you want to buy

alcohol, you have to show id and i think it is dangerous we do not have at ourfingertips a think it is dangerous we do not have at our fingertips a form of id and this is an extension of that. if i am going to vote or i was working at am going to vote or i was working at a polling station, monitoring the voting, i would want to know the person who comes to register their vote was who they said they were. according to people on the other side there is no evidence this is a problem and we will hear from darren in a moment but someone casting someone else“s fault at a polling station but there was research recently done by newcastle university, a survey of over 5000 pull station workers found 0.07% suspected electoral fraud and for it was wrong to link up was often inadvertent so there is not massive evidence of voter fraud. isn't that a long jump for evidence of voter fraud. isn't that a longjumpforan evidence of voter fraud. isn't that a long jump for an awful short jumper? i a long jump for an awful short 'umier? ., .. , a long jump for an awful short 'umer? , ,

jumper? i accept the point but i would say _ jumper? i accept the point but i would say every _ jumper? i accept the point but i would say every vote _ jumper? i accept the point but i would say every vote that i jumper? i accept the point but i would say every vote that is i jumper? i accept the point but i | would say every vote that is cast fraudulently is one vote too many but the other thing i would say... is every person not allowed to vote, is that not more crucial, those who are disenfranchised, that is more of an argument against it? the problem is a load of people _ an argument against it? the problem is a load of people feel _ is a load of people feel disenfranchised about voting and i appreciate that a set up a conversation but it is not as if the government is ring certain demographics and saying you have to pay 50 quid to apply for a fancy id card and i applied for an id card but! card and i applied for an id card but i cannot remember if it was free or not, i think actually it was a tenner. but the point is well, i am not the government, the system is not the government, the system is not trying to preclude people from voting on the basis of the economic demographic, it is saying we want to know who you are and the clamour about illegal immigration and the need to stop the exploitation of people making dangerous crossings in small boats across the channel, if

everybody had to prove id in this country then that could help unless there is very dangerous exploitative practice. ifailto there is very dangerous exploitative practice. i fail to understand why this is a subset of this id is a toxic conversation.— this is a subset of this id is a toxic conversation. many people on the riht toxic conversation. many people on the right and _ toxic conversation. many people on the right and broadly _ toxic conversation. many people on the right and broadly speaking i toxic conversation. many people on the right and broadly speaking you | the right and broadly speaking you are as well, or bullied about civil liberty implications, it is not the preserve of the centre on the left of the centre—left but darren, how do you answer what angela said? thank you for bringing up the topic, one of— thank you for bringing up the topic, one of the _ thank you for bringing up the topic, one of the biggest changes to elections in a generation and it's really— elections in a generation and it's really good to be having this discussion. i think until it makes good _ discussion. i think until it makes good points about data that we give up good points about data that we give up these _ good points about data that we give up these days, but i think as a general— up these days, but i think as a general approach to policy, we should — general approach to policy, we should come up with solutions to fix problems— should come up with solutions to fix problems that exist and not things people _ problems that exist and not things people might have heard once upon a time and _ people might have heard once upon a time and across town etc. it is a bad way—

time and across town etc. it is a bad way of— time and across town etc. it is a bad way of making policy and the essential— bad way of making policy and the essential problem here is there is no evidence of voter fraud because what _ no evidence of voter fraud because what that _ no evidence of voter fraud because what that means someone else going alon- what that means someone else going along to _ what that means someone else going along to your polling station, taking — along to your polling station, taking your name and vote and when you show— taking your name and vote and when you show up, you are denied a vote because _ you show up, you are denied a vote because of— you show up, you are denied a vote because of fraud so that was happening obviously. people would kick up— happening obviously. people would kick up a _ happening obviously. people would kick up a real store and we would hear— kick up a real store and we would hear about— kick up a real store and we would hear about it all the time so it is no wonder— hear about it all the time so it is no wonder we do not hear the anecdotes the people who run elections say what is necessary because — elections say what is necessary because although they suddenly next week they will have people showing up week they will have people showing up who _ week they will have people showing up who might not have heard of the new system and have not id on them or do— new system and have not id on them or do not— new system and have not id on them or do not have id and that is the dilemma. — or do not have id and that is the dilemma, we are creating an additional barrier for the problem that does— additional barrier for the problem that does not exist introduced in a ham-fisted — that does not exist introduced in a ham—fisted way and about a quarter of adults— ham—fisted way and about a quarter of adults do not know this is a requirement next week so we are interrupting a sensible thing... i .et interrupting a sensible thing... get that, interrupting a sensible thing... i get that, the sensible thing but the requirement is common in other democracies across the world, across

europe as well. is democracies across the world, across europe as well-— europe as well. is there a whole have there? _ europe as well. is there a whole have there? it _ europe as well. is there a whole have there? it is _ europe as well. is there a whole have there? it is what _ europe as well. is there a whole have there? it is what you i europe as well. is there a whole have there? it is what you are i europe as well. is there a whole i have there? it is what you are used to injure _ have there? it is what you are used to injure local situation. the last elections — to injure local situation. the last elections were held in 2019 and we had a _ elections were held in 2019 and we had a general election and we ended up had a general election and we ended up having _ had a general election and we ended up having european parliamentary elections. — up having european parliamentary elections, tens of millions of ballots— elections, tens of millions of ballots cast in 2019 and two people io ballots cast in 2019 and two people go convicted for voter fraud. you mentioned — go convicted for voter fraud. you mentioned in your introduction is about— mentioned in your introduction is about 2_ mentioned in your introduction is about 2 million people that the government says do not have the required — government says do not have the required idea, they have introduced an entirely— required idea, they have introduced an entirely new system to apply for an entirely new system to apply for a voter— an entirely new system to apply for a voter authority certificate at great — a voter authority certificate at great cost to the taxpayer and very few people have done that so it is what _ few people have done that so it is what you — few people have done that so it is what you are used in local democracy and we _ what you are used in local democracy and we are _ what you are used in local democracy and we are not used to this and if people _ and we are not used to this and if people do— and we are not used to this and if people do not have voter id, that is their business but people who do not have time _ their business but people who do not have time on the day, we risk causing — have time on the day, we risk causing democratic on to a whole bunch _ causing democratic on to a whole bunch of— causing democratic on to a whole bunch of people who have done nothing — bunch of people who have done nothing wrong in order to satisfy

the interests of campaigners who think— the interests of campaigners who think this — the interests of campaigners who think this is a problem even though there _ think this is a problem even though there is— think this is a problem even though there is no— think this is a problem even though there is no evidence of that. angela. _ there is no evidence of that. angela, you must go so thank you for your contribution. have a good day. darren s with us and let me play you some of the exchanges yesterday on the mps panel, we had the liberal democrat mp as i mentioned christine jardine. there is this what she had to say about id cards yesterday. it's bringing forward a solution to a problem that we do not have. there was no widescale fraud ever been reported in this country for building. it changes the situation for so many people in this country who are now have to go and get id and get it verified and take it to a polling station with them. and at a time when england was about to go into a large round of local council elections, it feels very much as if

government is trying to discourage people from voting and voting against them.— people from voting and voting against them. people from voting and voting aiainst them. ., ., , ~ ., against them. veteran tory mp damian green took a — against them. veteran tory mp damian green took a different _ against them. veteran tory mp damian green took a different view. _ against them. veteran tory mp damian green took a different view. making i green took a different view. making sure that people — green took a different view. making sure that people who _ green took a different view. making sure that people who say _ green took a different view. making sure that people who say they i green took a different view. making sure that people who say they or i sure that people who say they or someone. — sure that people who say they or someone. they— sure that people who say they or someone, they are _ sure that people who say they or someone, they are that - sure that people who say they or someone, they are that person i sure that people who say they or i someone, they are that person when they vote. _ someone, they are that person when they vote. it — someone, they are that person when they vote. it is— someone, they are that person when they vote. it is perfectly— someone, they are that person when they vote. it is perfectly sensible. i they vote. it is perfectly sensible. it's one _ they vote. it is perfectly sensible. it's one of— they vote. it is perfectly sensible. it's one of those _ they vote. it is perfectly sensible. it's one of those reforms, - they vote. it is perfectly sensible. it's one of those reforms, if- they vote. it is perfectly sensible. it's one of those reforms, if it i they vote. it is perfectly sensible. i it's one of those reforms, if it had always— it's one of those reforms, if it had always been— it's one of those reforms, if it had always been the _ it's one of those reforms, if it had always been the case _ it's one of those reforms, if it had always been the case and - it's one of those reforms, if it hadl always been the case and someone suggested — always been the case and someone suggested why— always been the case and someone suggested why don't _ always been the case and someone suggested why don't we _ always been the case and someone suggested why don't we allow- always been the case and someone i suggested why don't we allow people to tip up— suggested why don't we allow people to tip up and — suggested why don't we allow people to tip up and claim _ suggested why don't we allow people to tip up and claim they— suggested why don't we allow people to tip up and claim they are - suggested why don't we allow people to tip up and claim they are at - suggested why don't we allow people to tip up and claim they are at an- to tip up and claim they are at an election— to tip up and claim they are at an election under— to tip up and claim they are at an election undera— to tip up and claim they are at an election under a polling - to tip up and claim they are at an election under a polling station, i election under a polling station, they would _ election under a polling station, they would say— election under a polling station, they would say that _ election under a polling station, they would say that this - election under a polling station, i they would say that this mound, election under a polling station, i they would say that this mound, you need to— they would say that this mound, you need to be _ they would say that this mound, you need to be able _ they would say that this mound, you need to be able to _ they would say that this mound, you need to be able to show _ they would say that this mound, you need to be able to show you - they would say that this mound, you need to be able to show you are - they would say that this mound, you need to be able to show you are the | need to be able to show you are the political— need to be able to show you are the political parties _ need to be able to show you are the political parties themselves - need to be able to show you are the political parties themselves do - need to be able to show you are the political parties themselves do thisi political parties themselves do this for their_ political parties themselves do this for their own — political parties themselves do this for their own internal— political parties themselves do this for their own internal elections. - for their own internal elections. the labour_ for their own internal elections. the labour party, _ for their own internal elections. the labour party, you - for their own internal elections. the labour party, you cannot. for their own internal elections. . the labour party, you cannot turn for their own internal elections. - the labour party, you cannot turn up and vote _ the labour party, you cannot turn up and vote at _ the labour party, you cannot turn up and vote at a — the labour party, you cannot turn up and vote at a meeting _ the labour party, you cannot turn up and vote at a meeting unless - the labour party, you cannot turn up and vote at a meeting unless you - the labour party, you cannot turn upi and vote at a meeting unless you can prove _ and vote at a meeting unless you can prove who— and vote at a meeting unless you can prove who you — and vote at a meeting unless you can prove who you are _ and vote at a meeting unless you can prove who you are so— and vote at a meeting unless you can prove who you are so i— and vote at a meeting unless you can prove who you are so i think- and vote at a meeting unless you can prove who you are so i think there i prove who you are so i think there is a of— prove who you are so i think there is a of small— prove who you are so i think there is a of small peak— prove who you are so i think there is a of small peak politics - prove who you are so i think there is a of small peak politics around i is a of small peak politics around this _ is a of small peak politics around this the — is a of small peak politics around this. the reform _ is a of small peak politics around this. the reform means - is a of small peak politics around this. the reform means our- is a of small peak politics around i this. the reform means our rightly admired _ this. the reform means our rightly admired electoral— this. the reform means our rightly admired electoral system, - this. the reform means our rightly admired electoral system, people | admired electoral system, people compiain — admired electoral system, people complain about— admired electoral system, people complain about politicians - admired electoral system, people complain about politicians on - admired electoral system, people complain about politicians on the i complain about politicians on the results _ complain about politicians on the results of — complain about politicians on the results of elections _

complain about politicians on the results of elections and - complain about politicians on the results of elections and they- complain about politicians on the results of elections and they do i complain about politicians on the . results of elections and they do but nevertheless — results of elections and they do but nevertheless the _ results of elections and they do but nevertheless the fact _ results of elections and they do but nevertheless the fact that - results of elections and they do but nevertheless the fact that we - results of elections and they do but nevertheless the fact that we have i nevertheless the fact that we have one person — nevertheless the fact that we have one person and _ nevertheless the fact that we have one person and one _ nevertheless the fact that we have one person and one vote, - nevertheless the fact that we have i one person and one vote, everyone .ets one person and one vote, everyone gets a _ one person and one vote, everyone gets a vote. — one person and one vote, everyone gets a vote. that _ one person and one vote, everyone gets a vote, that vote _ one person and one vote, everyone gets a vote, that vote is _ one person and one vote, everyone gets a vote, that vote is counted i gets a vote, that vote is counted hohestlv — gets a vote, that vote is counted hohestlv with _ gets a vote, that vote is counted honestly with no _ gets a vote, that vote is counted honestly with no complications l gets a vote, that vote is counted i honestly with no complications with election— honestly with no complications with election machines, _ honestly with no complications with election machines, we _ honestly with no complications with election machines, we trust - honestly with no complications with election machines, we trust that. honestly with no complications withi election machines, we trust that the votes _ election machines, we trust that the votes are _ election machines, we trust that the votes are cast — election machines, we trust that the votes are cast in _ election machines, we trust that the votes are cast in the _ election machines, we trust that the votes are cast in the right _ election machines, we trust that the votes are cast in the right way, - votes are cast in the right way, ahvthihg — votes are cast in the right way, anything we _ votes are cast in the right way, anything we do _ votes are cast in the right way, anything we do to _ votes are cast in the right way, anything we do to make - votes are cast in the right way, anything we do to make their. anything we do to make their permanent— anything we do to make their permanent seems— anything we do to make their permanent seems to - anything we do to make their permanent seems to me - anything we do to make their permanent seems to me a i anything we do to make their. permanent seems to me a small anything we do to make their- permanent seems to me a small but sensible _ permanent seems to me a small but sensible reform _ permanent seems to me a small but sensible reform and _ permanent seems to me a small but sensible reform and that _ permanent seems to me a small but sensible reform and that is - permanent seems to me a small but sensible reform and that is what - sensible reform and that is what this is — sensible reform and that is what this is dr— sensible reform and that is what this is. ~ , ., sensible reform and that is what thisis. ~ , ., this is. a considerable measure of voter sopport. _ this is. a considerable measure of voter support, martin _ this is. a considerable measure of voter support, martin in _ this is. a considerable measure of voter support, martin in ipswich, | voter support, martin in ipswich, suzanne in saltash, james in thornton heath morning and welcome! is it a good idea, suzanne, do we need it? . , is it a good idea, suzanne, do we need it? , , . ., . need it? firstly, i have to say i am ex military. _ need it? firstly, i have to say i am ex military. a _ need it? firstly, i have to say i am ex military, a veteran. _ need it? firstly, i have to say i am ex military, a veteran. i— need it? firstly, i have to say i am ex military, a veteran. i always - ex military, a veteran. i always carried an id with me. it is not something, if you did not have it, you were in trouble so i used to carrying an id. i do not understand

why you would not an id. because, if you have done nothing wrong, you should be able to prove who you were. however, iunderstand should be able to prove who you were. however, i understand about the voter ids, what they are saying and i do not think we need to do it, it is a waste of money, i think it is anotherjob for the boys that the government is setting up. i do not believe that people are going to be voting much longer anyway. because the weight that the government is acting at the moment, i do not believe there is a democracy. labour and the conservatives are... what and the conservatives are... what ou are and the conservatives are... what you are saying _ and the conservatives are... what you are saying is _ and the conservatives are... what you are saying is democracy - and the conservatives are... what you are saying is democracy is in its final throes, i don't know? i its final throes, i don't know? i don't want it to be but its final throes, i don't know? i don't want it to be but yesterday after we listened to the lady, it was awful, with the baked potatoes every day. and honestly, i sat here

and i cried for that lady. and you finished your programme and you are listening to the government and they are sat there and they are laughing and joking and sniping against each other, the worst of my children ever! there is no difference, fighting amongst themselves. but back to the voting id... this fighting amongst themselves. but back to the voting id. . .— back to the voting id... this is all the more reason _ back to the voting id... this is all the more reason and _ back to the voting id... this is all the more reason and i _ back to the voting id... this is all the more reason and i know- back to the voting id... this is all the more reason and i know you | back to the voting id... this is all - the more reason and i know you have your crimes, considerable qualms about voter id which is a separate argument from carrying id with you, this is all the more reason for the argument against voter id will make for it? people are disenfranchised and the more people that vote them more they will be represented in the political process and whenever you say about the politicians, maybe if it was a wider process, a general

election, more people went to the polling stations, it would mean the politicians had to listen to a greater range of views and opinions and they would have a greater and more diverse range of policies apply to different people? that was a very long way of saying it but do you know what i mean?! i long way of saying it but do you know what i mean? !_ long way of saying it but do you know what i mean?! i was always at that mindset. _ know what i mean?! i was always at that mindset, my _ know what i mean?! i was always at that mindset, my children _ know what i mean?! i was always at that mindset, my children are - know what i mean?! i was always at that mindset, my children are in - that mindset, my children are in their 205 and i brought them up to say you have got your vote and you use your vote etc. however the people who i have voted for in the past, they have never delivered what i wanted. they come knocking, the local council people which we do not see any more, it used to come knocking on the door, we will do this and that, but no, they do not. they only think about themselves. you know what's a son, martin, please pick up, this place into a

general disillusionment with the process. general disillusionment with the rocess. , ., general disillusionment with the rocess. , . , general disillusionment with the i process._ martin, process. exactly what it is. martin, do ou process. exactly what it is. martin, do you think _ process. exactly what it is. martin, do you think voter _ process. exactly what it is. martin, do you think voter id _ process. exactly what it is. martin, do you think voter id will _ process. exactly what it is. martin, do you think voter id will help? - process. exactly what it is. martin, do you think voter id will help? i l do you think voter id will help? i do you think voter id will help? i do not think so. i was caught by your— do not think so. i was caught by your team, _ do not think so. i was caught by yourteam, iwas do not think so. i was caught by your team, i was doing some rapid research _ your team, i was doing some rapid research and between 2016 and 2022 we had _ research and between 2016 and 2022 we had convictions and cautions 16 across— we had convictions and cautions 16 across all— we had convictions and cautions 16 across all of — we had convictions and cautions 16 across all of the elections held during — across all of the elections held during that time. i do not think we need _ during that time. i do not think we need voter— during that time. i do not think we need voter id. voter id disenfranchised as people because they do— disenfranchised as people because they do not know about it, it is difficult — they do not know about it, it is difficult to _ they do not know about it, it is difficult to get, people have not .ot difficult to get, people have not got the — difficult to get, people have not got the time to get it. if you do not have — got the time to get it. if you do not have acceptable id, if you forget — not have acceptable id, if you forget to _ not have acceptable id, if you forget to bring it as well, you go

back— forget to bring it as well, you go back home — forget to bring it as well, you go back home and you forget to vote, you have _ back home and you forget to vote, you have lost your vote. itjust seems — you have lost your vote. itjust seems to— you have lost your vote. itjust seems to be hammer to crack a very small— seems to be hammer to crack a very small knot — seems to be hammer to crack a very small knot. can seems to be hammer to crack a very small knot-— small knot. can you explain something _ small knot. can you explain something to _ small knot. can you explain something to me? - small knot. can you explain something to me? what - small knot. can you explain something to me? what is| small knot. can you explain - something to me? what is wrong small knot. can you explain _ something to me? what is wrong with a citizenship card, _ something to me? what is wrong with a citizenship card, white _ something to me? what is wrong with a citizenship card, white should - something to me? what is wrong with a citizenship card, white should not i a citizenship card, white should not be able to guess that? i a citizenship card, white should not be able to guess that?— be able to guess that? i think you have to pay _ be able to guess that? i think you have to pay for — be able to guess that? i think you have to pay for those. _ be able to guess that? i think you have to pay for those. if - be able to guess that? i think you have to pay for those. if the - have to pay for those. if the government _ have to pay for those. if the government is _ have to pay for those. if the government is thinking - have to pay for those. if the l government is thinking about bringing in a scheme, why shouldn't we all be issued with a citizenship card and we are done with that, we have id for whatever? i card and we are done with that, we have id for whatever?— have id for whatever? i agree but the thing is _ have id for whatever? i agree but the thing is that _ have id for whatever? i agree but the thing is that the _ have id for whatever? i agree but the thing is that the government | have id for whatever? i agree but l the thing is that the government do it? it— the thing is that the government do it? it citizenship card, proof of a-e it? it citizenship card, proof of age card, _ it? it citizenship card, proof of age card, i— it? it citizenship card, proof of age card, i think there's a couple of them — age card, i think there's a couple of them knocking around, i think it is called _ of them knocking around, i think it is called the approved card. | is called the approved card. i remember the is called the approved card. i rememberthe id debate is called the approved card. i rememberthe id debate round is called the approved card. i remember the id debate round about the time of tony blair and some people thought this is an

unacceptable infringement on civil liberties, why should we carry photo id, it is none of your business and since then we have had oh arguments about civil liberties coming with the growth of the online power of nefarious organisations but explain something to me, martin. you sound like an intelligent man. i am a 60 plus oyster court, i have got one, i know you find that hard to believe! that works but under 60, no, what does that tell us?— does that tell us? what that tells us and i does that tell us? what that tells us and i am _ does that tell us? what that tells us and i am glancing _ does that tell us? what that tells us and i am glancing at _ does that tell us? what that tells us and i am glancing at the - does that tell us? what that tells| us and i am glancing at the screen here _ us and i am glancing at the screen here trut— us and i am glancing at the screen here but i— us and i am glancing at the screen here but i have got it up here international travel, here we 70 quid _ international travel, here we 70 quid for— international travel, here we 70 quid for one of those. they do not .et quid for one of those. they do not get automatically renewed. driving

and parking, driving licence, that is what _ and parking, driving licence, that is what a — and parking, driving licence, that is what a young person might have if they have _ is what a young person might have if they have none at all. a blue badge, disabled _ they have none at all. a blue badge, disabled people. here we go, older persons _ disabled people. here we go, older persons bus pass... disabled people. here we go, older persons bus pass. . .— disabled people. here we go, older persons bus pass... oyster card, 60 lus. the persons bus pass... oyster card, 60 plus. the government _ persons bus pass... oyster card, 60 plus. the government citizenship . plus. the government citizenship card, like martin said, yes for an age confirmation, we got them for our children and we have all been there so they could go drinking when they were 18 and prove they were 18. yeah, i know that one! we they were 18 and prove they were 18. yeah, i know that one!— yeah, i know that one! we have all been there! _ yeah, i know that one! we have all been there! but _ yeah, i know that one! we have all been there! but you _ yeah, i know that one! we have all been there! but you see, - yeah, i know that one! we have all been there! but you see, it - yeah, i know that one! we have all been there! but you see, it is - been there! but you see, it is second nature to me, i have always carried a 90 because i was in the military for 25 years. what wouldn't i have something sitting in my purse alongside my bank card. let’s i have something sitting in my purse alongside my bank card.— alongside my bank card. let's see what people _ alongside my bank card. let's see

what people think. _ alongside my bank card. let's see what people think. james - alongside my bank card. let's see what people think. james and - what people think. james and stephen. james, what do you think? good morning. ithink stephen. james, what do you think? good morning. i think we do not need this to _ good morning. i think we do not need this to vote _ good morning. i think we do not need this to vote. because _ good morning. i think we do not need this to vote. because it _ good morning. i think we do not need this to vote. because it is _ this to vote. because it is disenfranchising - this to vote. because it is disenfranchising people l this to vote. because it is . disenfranchising people and this to vote. because it is - disenfranchising people and thus encouraging _ disenfranchising people and thus encouraging them _ disenfranchising people and thus encouraging them from - disenfranchising people and thus encouraging them from voting. i disenfranchising people and thus - encouraging them from voting. lexis and said. _ encouraging them from voting. lexis and said. i— encouraging them from voting. lexis and said. icarry— encouraging them from voting. lexis and said, i carry my— encouraging them from voting. lexis and said, i carry my driving - encouraging them from voting. lexis and said, i carry my driving licence . and said, i carry my driving licence everywhere~ — and said, i carry my driving licence everywhere~ i— and said, i carry my driving licence everywhere igo— and said, i carry my driving licence everywhere. i go with _ and said, i carry my driving licence everywhere. i go with my- and said, i carry my driving licence everywhere. i go with my driving l everywhere. i go with my driving licence _ everywhere. i go with my driving licence because _ everywhere. i go with my driving licence because i— everywhere. i go with my driving licence because i can _ everywhere. i go with my driving licence because i can be - everywhere. i go with my drivingj licence because i can be stopped everywhere. i go with my driving i licence because i can be stopped at any time _ licence because i can be stopped at any time in — licence because i can be stopped at anytime in any— licence because i can be stopped at any time in any situation _ licence because i can be stopped at any time in any situation but - licence because i can be stopped at any time in any situation but some| any time in any situation but some people _ any time in any situation but some people do— any time in any situation but some people do not— any time in any situation but some people do not think _ any time in any situation but some people do not think that _ any time in any situation but some people do not think that way. - any time in any situation but some . people do not think that way. maybe they want— people do not think that way. maybe they want to — people do not think that way. maybe they want to use _ people do not think that way. maybe they want to use something - people do not think that way. maybe they want to use something againsti they want to use something against them _ they want to use something against them in _ they want to use something against them in the — they want to use something against them in the future? _ they want to use something against them in the future? so _ they want to use something against them in the future? so this - they want to use something against them in the future? so this will- them in the future? so this will discourage _ them in the future? so this will discourage people. _ them in the future? so this will discourage people. we - them in the future? so this will discourage people. we have i them in the future? so this will discourage people. we have to| them in the future? so this will- discourage people. we have to look at the _ discourage people. we have to look at the people — discourage people. we have to look at the people in— discourage people. we have to look at the people in nursing _ discourage people. we have to look at the people in nursing homes, - discourage people. we have to look. at the people in nursing homes, care homes, _ at the people in nursing homes, care homes, they— at the people in nursing homes, care homes, they cannot _ at the people in nursing homes, care homes, they cannot have _ at the people in nursing homes, care homes, they cannot have any- at the people in nursing homes, care homes, they cannot have any valid . homes, they cannot have any valid id. homes, they cannot have any valid id~ how— homes, they cannot have any valid id~ how it— homes, they cannot have any valid id~ how it they— homes, they cannot have any valid id. how it they vote? _ homes, they cannot have any valid id. how it they vote? that - homes, they cannot have any valid id. how it they vote? that is - id. how it they vote? that is something _

id. how it they vote? that is something that _ id. how it they vote? that is something that needs - id. how it they vote? that is something that needs to - id. how it they vote? that is something that needs to be i id. how it they vote? that is i something that needs to be left intact — something that needs to be left intact l— something that needs to be left intact. . ., ., ., intact. i have a note here that you had some — intact. i have a note here that you had some experience _ intact. i have a note here that you had some experience in _ intact. i have a note here that you had some experience in nigeria i intact. i have a note here that you j had some experience in nigeria or voterfraud. what is it like had some experience in nigeria or voter fraud. what is it like that? laughter. even watching it from the tv, there is voter— even watching it from the tv, there is voter fraud — even watching it from the tv, there is voter fraud in _ even watching it from the tv, there is voter fraud in nigeria _ even watching it from the tv, there is voter fraud in nigeria and - even watching it from the tv, there is voter fraud in nigeria and every. is voter fraud in nigeria and every election. — is voter fraud in nigeria and every election. it— is voter fraud in nigeria and every election. it is— is voter fraud in nigeria and every election, it is always _ is voter fraud in nigeria and every election, it is always a _ is voter fraud in nigeria and every election, it is always a bad - is voter fraud in nigeria and every. election, it is always a bad outcome and rigging — election, it is always a bad outcome and rigging the _ election, it is always a bad outcome and rigging the election— election, it is always a bad outcome and rigging the election under- election, it is always a bad outcome and rigging the election under the l and rigging the election under the thing _ and rigging the election under the thing so _ and rigging the election under the thing so the — and rigging the election under the thing so the use _ and rigging the election under the thing so the use of— and rigging the election under the thing so the use of voter- and rigging the election under the thing so the use of voter id- and rigging the election under the l thing so the use of voter id though, it is still— thing so the use of voter id though, it is still not— thing so the use of voter id though, it is still not working. _ thing so the use of voter id though, it is still not working. they - thing so the use of voter id though, it is still not working. they still - it is still not working. they still read _ it is still not working. they still read the — it is still not working. they still read the elections _ it is still not working. they still read the elections in _ it is still not working. they still read the elections in nigeria. l it is still not working. they still i read the elections in nigeria. how do they— read the elections in nigeria. how do they do— read the elections in nigeria. how do they do that? _ read the elections in nigeria. how do they do that? they— read the elections in nigeria. how do they do that? they don't - read the elections in nigeria. how do they do that? they don't get. read the elections in nigeria. how. do they do that? they don't get by, let's say— do they do that? they don't get by, let's say now. — do they do that? they don't get by, let's say now. in _ do they do that? they don't get by, let's say now, in particular- do they do that? they don't get by, let's say now, in particular polling i let's say now, in particular polling booths. _ let's say now, in particular polling booths. the — let's say now, in particular polling booths, the people _ let's say now, in particular polling booths, the people they- let's say now, in particular polling booths, the people they will- let's say now, in particular polling booths, the people they will have | booths, the people they will have done _ booths, the people they will have done the — booths, the people they will have done the fingerprinting, -

they will... they will. .. they will actually ring — they will. .. they will actually ring the _ they will. .. they will actually ring. the actual— they will. .. they will actually ring. the actual voter, - they will. .. they will actually ring. the actual voter, they. they will. .. they will actually i ring. the actual voter, they do they will. .. they will actually - ring. the actual voter, they do not count _ ring. the actual voter, they do not count the — ring. the actual voter, they do not count the result, _ ring. the actual voter, they do not count the result, because - ring. the actual voter, they do not count the result, because it - ring. the actual voter, they do not count the result, because it has i count the result, because it has already— count the result, because it has already been _ count the result, because it has already been made. _ count the result, because it has already been made. in- count the result, because it has already been made. in a - count the result, because it has i already been made. in a particular polling _ already been made. in a particular polling booth— already been made. in a particular polling booth maybe _ already been made. in a particular polling booth maybe there - already been made. in a particular polling booth maybe there are - already been made. in a particular| polling booth maybe there are 200 voters. _ polling booth maybe there are 200 voters. let's— polling booth maybe there are 200 voters. let's say— polling booth maybe there are 200 voters, let's say for— polling booth maybe there are 200 voters, let's say for the _ polling booth maybe there are 200 voters, let's say for the people's . voters, let's say for the people's democratic— voters, let's say for the people's democratic party— voters, let's say for the people's democratic party or— voters, let's say for the people's democratic party or the - voters, let's say for the people's democratic party or the apc, - voters, let's say for the people's democratic party or the apc, so| democratic party or the apc, so there _ democratic party or the apc, so there are — democratic party or the apc, so there are 50 _ democratic party or the apc, so there are 50 thoughts _ democratic party or the apc, so there are 50 thoughts for- democratic party or the apc, so there are 50 thoughts for the i democratic party or the apc, so i there are 50 thoughts for the apc democratic party or the apc, so - there are 50 thoughts for the apc so they can _ there are 50 thoughts for the apc so they can win— there are 50 thoughts for the apc so they can win in— there are 50 thoughts for the apc so they can win in their _ there are 50 thoughts for the apc so they can win in their particular- they can win in their particular booth, — they can win in their particular booth, that— they can win in their particular booth, that is— they can win in their particular booth, that is how— they can win in their particular booth, that is how they- they can win in their particularj booth, that is how they rigged they can win in their particular- booth, that is how they rigged the elections — booth, that is how they rigged the elections but _ booth, that is how they rigged the elections but they— booth, that is how they rigged the elections but they do _ booth, that is how they rigged the elections but they do not - booth, that is how they rigged the elections but they do not count. booth, that is how they rigged the i elections but they do not count the actual— elections but they do not count the actual votes. — elections but they do not count the actual votes, they— elections but they do not count the actual votes, they count _ elections but they do not count the actual votes, they count the - elections but they do not count the actual votes, they count the ones i actual votes, they count the ones that they— actual votes, they count the ones that they rig _ actual votes, they count the ones that they rig themselves. - actual votes, they count the ones that they rig themselves. that. actual votes, they count the ones that they rig themselves.- actual votes, they count the ones that they rig themselves. that is so interesting. — that they rig themselves. that is so interesting. l _ that they rig themselves. that is so interesting, i did _ that they rig themselves. that is so interesting, i did not— that they rig themselves. that is so interesting, i did not realise - that they rig themselves. that is so interesting, i did not realise we - interesting, i did not realise we were going to get this. i had not marshalled my arguments about nigerian politics, i am not going to lie but that is so interesting, it is taken as read. we have some text,

this is a ludicrous debate, thank you! most of europe is not a meagre photo id but compulsory identity cards and they are at least as democratic as the uk, probably more so. democratic as the uk, probably more 50. what about my right to have their elections why there is no voter fraud? their elections why there is no voterfraud? you their elections why there is no voter fraud? you seem to be saying there is an acceptable level of cheating. won't know this has happened, it has decades of what you say sam draper for is the balance of the problem? in voterfraud or people who may well be disenfranchised and not able to vote? another text. my late elderly mother was in hospital at the time of the referendum. desperate to vote, she did not want tojoin of the referendum. desperate to vote, she did not want to join the eu in the first place. there were some of them on the board that voiced their desire to vote on my mother told me a nurse to the courts unfiltered for them. —— a nurse took all the cards and voted for them.

suspicious of some egregious practices there. another one, democracy is for all notjust practices there. another one, democracy is for all not just those with a totalitarian card. a totalitarian card?! steve i'm soon coming on. steve, what do you think? i am disabled and i have a blue badge — i am disabled and i have a blue badge so — i am disabled and i have a blue badge so on polling day, i go along, there _ badge so on polling day, i go along, there is— badge so on polling day, i go along, there is disabled parking bays for i io there is disabled parking bays for i go to— there is disabled parking bays for i go to vote — there is disabled parking bays for i go to vote and i park in the bay, put on _ go to vote and i park in the bay, put on my— go to vote and i park in the bay, put on my blue badge and i go in the luy put on my blue badge and i go in the guy says _ put on my blue badge and i go in the guy says i _ put on my blue badge and i go in the guy says i cannot fault so i go back to my— guy says i cannot fault so i go back to my car, — guy says i cannot fault so i go back to my car, get the blood badge, and a traffic— to my car, get the blood badge, and a traffic warden in the meantime has issued _ a traffic warden in the meantime has issued me _ a traffic warden in the meantime has issued me with a parking ticket because — issued me with a parking ticket because i— issued me with a parking ticket because i have no badge! sol issued me with a parking ticket because i have no badge! so i have to pay— because i have no badge! so i have to pay the — because i have no badge! so i have to pay the fine!— to pay the fine! dear me, that is

terrible! it _ to pay the fine! dear me, that is terrible! it will— to pay the fine! dear me, that is terrible! it will not _ to pay the fine! dear me, that is terrible! it will not happen - to pay the fine! dear me, that is terrible! it will not happen to - to pay the fine! dear me, that is l terrible! it will not happen to me. but it terrible! it will not happen to me. iout it might. _ terrible! it will not happen to me. iout it might. in — terrible! it will not happen to me. but it might, in this _ terrible! it will not happen to me. but it might, in this country - terrible! it will not happen to me. but it might, in this country stuff| but it might, in this country stuff can happen. it will happen to someone and then we will have another little election story on the way through, that is a thing and if you try and protest against the appeal, that is the word i am looking for, appealing the finder will be reams of paperwork and lots of phone calls and you have to go through a morass of bureaucracy. that through a morass of bureaucracy. at the end of the day it could cost you ”p the end of the day it could cost you up to _ the end of the day it could cost you up to £100 — the end of the day it could cost you up to £100 if you are disabled to go and vote! _ up to £100 if you are disabled to go and vote! it— up to £100 if you are disabled to go and vote! . . up to £100 if you are disabled to go and vote! , . ., ,. ., ., and vote! it is a nightmare scenario but what do — and vote! it is a nightmare scenario but what do you _ and vote! it is a nightmare scenario but what do you think _ and vote! it is a nightmare scenario but what do you think that - and vote! it is a nightmare scenario but what do you think that the - and vote! it is a nightmare scenario but what do you think that the idea | but what do you think that the idea itself? ., ., ., , , ., itself? not voter fraud, less than 496, itself? not voter fraud, less than 496. wasn't _ itself? not voter fraud, less than 496. wasn't it? — itself? not voter fraud, less than 496, wasn't it? the _ itself? not voter fraud, less than 496, wasn't it? the conservative | 4%, wasn't it? the conservative party— 4%, wasn't it? the conservative party trying _ 4%, wasn't it? the conservative party trying to stop people voting. most of— party trying to stop people voting. most of the people who do not carry id most of the people who do not carry it) would _ most of the people who do not carry id would not vote for them, would they? _

id would not vote for them, would the ? , ., id would not vote for them, would the ? y., ., ., id would not vote for them, would the ? i. ., ., , id would not vote for them, would the ? ., ., , ., they? so, you are 'oining us, a good idea or a bad — they? so, you are joining us, a good idea or a bad idea? _ they? so, you are joining us, a good idea or a bad idea? i— they? so, you are joining us, a good idea or a bad idea? i feel— idea or a bad idea? i feel passionately _ idea or a bad idea? i feel passionately opposed - idea or a bad idea? i feel passionately opposed to | idea or a bad idea? i feel- passionately opposed to voter id. i think— passionately opposed to voter id. i think it's _ passionately opposed to voter id. i think it's striking _ passionately opposed to voter id. i think it's striking a _ passionately opposed to voter id. i think it's striking a blow— passionately opposed to voter id. i think it's striking a blow at - passionately opposed to voter id. i think it's striking a blow at the - think it's striking a blow at the heart — think it's striking a blow at the heart of— think it's striking a blow at the heart of democracy _ think it's striking a blow at the heart of democracy in - think it's striking a blow at the heart of democracy in the - think it's striking a blow at the heart of democracy in the uk i think it's striking a blow at the i heart of democracy in the uk and think it's striking a blow at the - heart of democracy in the uk and we pride _ heart of democracy in the uk and we pride ourselves— heart of democracy in the uk and we pride ourselves here _ heart of democracy in the uk and we pride ourselves here on _ heart of democracy in the uk and we pride ourselves here on a _ heart of democracy in the uk and we pride ourselves here on a fair- pride ourselves here on a fair system — pride ourselves here on a fair system and _ pride ourselves here on a fair system and so _ pride ourselves here on a fair system and so one _ pride ourselves here on a fair system and so one and - pride ourselves here on a fair system and so one and it - pride ourselves here on a fair system and so one and it is l pride ourselves here on a fair. system and so one and it is the pride ourselves here on a fair- system and so one and it is the kind of thing _ system and so one and it is the kind of thing we — system and so one and it is the kind ofthing we might— system and so one and it is the kind of thing we might expect _ system and so one and it is the kind of thing we might expect in - system and so one and it is the kind of thing we might expect in other. of thing we might expect in other countries — of thing we might expect in other countries around _ of thing we might expect in other countries around the _ of thing we might expect in other countries around the world - of thing we might expect in other countries around the world with i countries around the world with shakier— countries around the world with shakier systems— countries around the world with shakier systems and _ countries around the world with shakier systems and indeed - countries around the world with shakier systems and indeed in. countries around the world with . shakier systems and indeed in the states. _ shakier systems and indeed in the states. the — shakier systems and indeed in the states, the republicans— shakier systems and indeed in the states, the republicans have - shakier systems and indeed in the . states, the republicans have passed similar— states, the republicans have passed similar legislation _ states, the republicans have passed similar legislation which _ states, the republicans have passed similar legislation which has - similar legislation which has resulted _ similar legislation which has resulted in— similar legislation which has resulted in people _ similar legislation which has resulted in people being - similar legislation which hasi resulted in people being less similar legislation which has - resulted in people being less able to vote _ resulted in people being less able to vote i— resulted in people being less able to vote. i think _ resulted in people being less able to vote. i think it's _ resulted in people being less able to vote. i think it's a _ resulted in people being less able to vote. i think it's a bad - resulted in people being less able to vote. i think it's a bad idea. - to vote. i think it's a bad idea. they— to vote. i think it's a bad idea. they needed _ to vote. i think it's a bad idea. they needed to _ to vote. i think it's a bad idea. they needed to be _ to vote. i think it's a bad idea. they needed to be a _ to vote. i think it's a bad idea. they needed to be a literacy. to vote. i think it's a bad idea. i they needed to be a literacy test to vote. i think it's a bad idea. - they needed to be a literacy test in the 605? they needed to be a literacy test in the 60s? ., u, they needed to be a literacy test in the 60s? ., .. , ., they needed to be a literacy test in the 60s? ., , ., ., the 60s? how can it be fair for someone _ the 60s? how can it be fair for someone who _ the 60s? how can it be fair for someone who can _ the 60s? how can it be fair for someone who can afford - the 60s? how can it be fair for someone who can afford to - the 60s? how can it be fair for| someone who can afford to run the 60s? how can it be fair for. someone who can afford to run a the 60s? how can it be fair for- someone who can afford to run a car to be _ someone who can afford to run a car to be able _ someone who can afford to run a car to be able to — someone who can afford to run a car to be able to vote _ someone who can afford to run a car to be able to vote easily— someone who can afford to run a car to be able to vote easily whereas . someone who can afford to run a car to be able to vote easily whereas if. to be able to vote easily whereas if you are _ to be able to vote easily whereas if you are struggling _ to be able to vote easily whereas if you are struggling to _ to be able to vote easily whereas if you are struggling to put _ to be able to vote easily whereas if you are struggling to put food - to be able to vote easily whereas if you are struggling to put food on . you are struggling to put food on the table — you are struggling to put food on the table like — you are struggling to put food on the table like a _ you are struggling to put food on the table like a lot _ you are struggling to put food on the table like a lot of— you are struggling to put food on the table like a lot of people - you are struggling to put food onj the table like a lot of people that i the table like a lot of people that i speak— the table like a lot of people that i speak to — the table like a lot of people that i speak to every— the table like a lot of people that i speak to every week, _ the table like a lot of people that i speak to every week, there - the table like a lot of people that i speak to every week, there are| i speak to every week, there are obstacles— i speak to every week, there are obstacles in— i speak to every week, there are obstacles in the _ i speak to every week, there are obstacles in the way. _ i speak to every week, there are obstacles in the way. i— i speak to every week, there are obstacles in the way. i think- i speak to every week, there are obstacles in the way. i think it's| i speak to every week, there arei obstacles in the way. i think it's a disgrace — obstacles in the way. i think it's a disgrace and _ obstacles in the way. i think it's a disgrace and i— obstacles in the way. i think it's a disgrace and i think— obstacles in the way. i think it's a disgrace and i think in _ obstacles in the way. i think it's a disgrace and i think in terms - obstacles in the way. i think it's a disgrace and i think in terms of. disgrace and i think in terms of statistics. _ disgrace and i think in terms of statistics, the _ disgrace and i think in terms of

statistics, the lovely— disgrace and i think in terms of| statistics, the lovely gentleman from _ statistics, the lovely gentleman from liverpool— statistics, the lovely gentleman from liverpool coated _ statistics, the lovely gentleman from liverpool coated 4%, - statistics, the lovely gentleman from liverpool coated 4%, it. statistics, the lovely gentleman from liverpool coated 4%, it isi statistics, the lovely gentlemani from liverpool coated 4%, it is a fraction — from liverpool coated 4%, it is a fraction of — from liverpool coated 4%, it is a fraction of that _ from liverpool coated 4%, it is a fraction of that in _ from liverpool coated 4%, it is a fraction of that in terms - from liverpool coated 4%, it is a fraction of that in terms of- from liverpool coated 4%, it is a fraction of that in terms of voter| fraction of that in terms of voter fraud _ fraction of that in terms of voter fraud in— fraction of that in terms of voter fraud in 2019 _ fraction of that in terms of voter fraud. in 2019 58 _ fraction of that in terms of voter fraud. in 2019 58 million - fraction of that in terms of voter fraud. in 2019 58 million votes l fraction of that in terms of voter i fraud. in 2019 58 million votes cast in elections — fraud. in 2019 58 million votes cast in elections and _ fraud. in 2019 58 million votes cast in elections and out _ fraud. in 2019 58 million votes cast in elections and out of _ fraud. in 2019 58 million votes cast in elections and out of those, - fraud. in 2019 58 million votes cast in elections and out of those, 34 i in elections and out of those, 34 allegations — in elections and out of those, 34 allegations of _ in elections and out of those, 34 allegations of voter— in elections and out of those, 34 allegations of voter fraud - in elections and out of those, 34 allegations of voter fraud so - in elections and out of those, 34 allegations of voter fraud so i. in elections and out of those, 34| allegations of voter fraud so i am not hot _ allegations of voter fraud so i am not hot on — allegations of voter fraud so i am not hot on the _ allegations of voter fraud so i am not hot on the mouth _ allegations of voter fraud so i am not hot on the mouth but- allegations of voter fraud so i am not hot on the mouth but we - allegations of voter fraud so i am not hot on the mouth but we are | not hot on the mouth but we are talking _ not hot on the mouth but we are talking about 0.0000 _ not hot on the mouth but we are | talking about 0.0000 something percent! — talking about 0.0000 something percent! even— talking about 0.0000 something percent! even though _ talking about 0.0000 something percent! even though the - percent! even though the conservative _ percent! even though the conservative party, - percent! even though the conservative party, david percent! even though the - conservative party, david davis, a former— conservative party, david davis, a former minister— conservative party, david davis, a former minister said _ conservative party, david davis, a former minister said it _ conservative party, david davis, a former minister said it sa - conservative party, david davis, a former minister said it sa level. former minister said it sa level solution — former minister said it sa level solution for _ former minister said it sa level solution for a _ former minister said it sa level solution for a nonexistent - former minister said it sa level- solution for a nonexistent problem and house — solution for a nonexistent problem and house house _ solution for a nonexistent problem and house house of— solution for a nonexistent problem and house house of commons - solution for a nonexistent problem - and house house of commons research. a big champion— and house house of commons research. a big champion of— and house house of commons research. a big champion of civil— and house house of commons research. a big champion of civil liberties, - a big champion of civil liberties, still chuckling inside at the notion of steve taking his poor badge inside to vote and then having a fine imposed on you! but here is the government argument. a security system, this is a government website. necessary security system that has seen no significant changes since the secret ballot act in 1872.

it is updated to the point of being almost completely ineffective. and let us name and address can easily be obtained by a potential fraudster and used with minimal risk of being caught, pull cords in particular though vitalfor caught, pull cords in particular though vital for providing information to electors, provide a significant vulnerability if intercepted and not only did they provide a full stroke with the name and address of the elector but there are all sorts of other problems and we, collectively, as a nation, given that the conservatives won the last election, voted for it, in the 2019 manifest are full. this is how democracy works, the government committed to protecting democratic integrity. so, it is about integrity? it integrity. so, it is about integrity?— integrity. so, it is about inteuri ? , ., integrity? it is not, you look at the statistics _ integrity? it is not, you look at the statistics and _ integrity? it is not, you look at the statistics and it _ integrity? it is not, you look at the statistics and it is - integrity? it is not, you look at the statistics and it is difficult l the statistics and it is difficult to make — the statistics and it is difficult to make the votes byjust getting

hold of— to make the votes byjust getting hold of some voter records or whatever _ hold of some voter records or whatever. so i completely disagree with that _ whatever. so i completely disagree with that. the only example was in tower— with that. the only example was in tower hamlets, i don't know the details _ tower hamlets, idon't know the details of— tower hamlets, i don't know the details of what happened but something did go dreadfully wrong but we _ something did go dreadfully wrong but we are talking about just that one instance and the system is not broken _ one instance and the system is not broken so — one instance and the system is not broken so they do not need to fix it. broken so they do not need to fix it it _ broken so they do not need to fix it it is _ broken so they do not need to fix it. it is completely overlooked, the practicalities of it. ideal with people — practicalities of it. ideal with people who are on very low incomes, actually— people who are on very low incomes, actually getting voter id will cost them _ actually getting voter id will cost them possibly £9 for a photo if they do not _ them possibly £9 for a photo if they do not have a phone, £3 to get them into town _ do not have a phone, £3 to get them into town to— do not have a phone, £3 to get them into town to get the form, if they are not— into town to get the form, if they are not online, if you are on universal— are not online, if you are on universal credit, this is a big obstacle _ universal credit, this is a big obstacle and struggling to feed your family— obstacle and struggling to feed your family you are not going to be getting — family you are not going to be getting hold of voter id and there's about— getting hold of voter id and there's about 2_ getting hold of voter id and there's about 2 million people who do not have any— about 2 million people who do not have any acceptable form of voter id at the _ have any acceptable form of voter id at the moment and only 66,000 people have got—

at the moment and only 66,000 people have got the voter id on ready so we are talking _ have got the voter id on ready so we are talking about the best part of 2 million _ are talking about the best part of 2 million people will be disenfranchised at a stroke, not able _ disenfranchised at a stroke, not able to— disenfranchised at a stroke, not able to vote, you are going to have the people — able to vote, you are going to have the people at the polling stations will be _ the people at the polling stations will be faced with quite aggressive people _ will be faced with quite aggressive people potentially. the other involved is huge. compared with actually— involved is huge. compared with actually checking the name of someone and one final point i want to makem — someone and one final point i want to makem l— someone and one final point i want to make---— to make... i tell you what, can i brina to make... i tell you what, can i bring you _ to make... i tell you what, can i bring you back _ to make... i tell you what, can i bring you back after _ to make... i tell you what, can i bring you back after the - to make... i tell you what, can i bring you back after the news i bring you back after the news because i want to talk to someone who thinks differently from you and that an always instructive and illustrative from conversations like that, however heated they are comes light, i believe. it is going to be woven in essex, you think it's quite a good idea, do you? if no ifnoi if no i don't have much comment one way or— if no i don't have much comment one way or the _ if no i don't have much comment one way or the other... if no i don't have much comment one way or the other. . .— way or the other... that is great! come back _ way or the other... that is great!

come back after _ way or the other... that is great! come back after the _ way or the other... that is great! come back after the news - way or the other... that is great! come back after the news and i way or the other... that is great! | come back after the news and tell us, what a come back after the news and tell us, whata build—up! the come back after the news and tell us, what a build—up! the other thing is, people on that side of the argument, powerfully expressed by sue, that it will cost a lot of money, estimate show that funding will be needed, so there is that too. coming up, a classic confrontation coming up, as you can hearin confrontation coming up, as you can hear injust a confrontation coming up, as you can hear in just a couple of moments. medical leaders are urging the government and doctors in england to use a third party organisation to resolve their pay dispute. the academy of medical royal colleges said prolonged industrial action was having a serious impact on patient care. the association of school and college leaders teaching union is holding its first formal

strike ballot in england. the ballot will happen this term, and industrial action would likely be in the autumn. activists from extinction rebellion have promised to stop other protest groups from disrupting the london marathon this sunday. organisers say the environmental group will help to guard the race. the first and last night concerts at the bbc proms are going to be conducted by women for the first time. this year's events also feature the artist self—esteem, horrible histories and the bbc singers. manchester city's bernardo silva says the team will go for it and that he's very confident they'll overcome real madrid in their champions league semifinal. city set up a last four meeting with the champions after overcoming bayern munich in the quarterfinals last night. arsenal manager mikel arteta admits that defender william saliba "isn't progressing as quickly" as they'd hoped in his recovery from his back injury. oleksandr zinchenko also has a muscular injury that makes him "uncertain" for their premier league match against southampton tomorrow. we're still awaiting news on the fitness of england captain leah williamson.

the arsenal defender suffered what appeared to be a knee injury in the wsl defeat to manchester united last night. the women's world cup begins in three months. liv golf chief executive greg norman says they're considering creating a women's circuit and has approached american and european players. the saudi arabia—backed liv men's tour began last year with high—profile players such as bryson dechambeau leaving the pga tour to join liv. norman says "a women's tour is a discussion we have internally on a regular basis." and at the world snooker championship, joe perry leads robert milkins by 7—4 in their first round match at the crucible.

an impassioned list of reasons why sue believes this is a terrible idea, voter id, and you laid it out with greater knowledge, great expertise. robin in essex, it is high powered stuff on the phone in, you can see both sides of the argument, right? fit you can see both sides of the argument, right?— you can see both sides of the argument, right? you can see both sides of the araument, riuht? a, , ., . argument, right? of course! you have not some argument, right? of course! you have got some people _ argument, right? of course! you have got some people who _ argument, right? of course! you have got some people who do _ argument, right? of course! you have got some people who do not - argument, right? of course! you have got some people who do not want i argument, right? of course! you have got some people who do not want to i got some people who do not want to carry identification, some people, i mean, i am somebody who couldn't

care one way or the other, i always have my driving licence in my wallet, i always leave the house with my wallet, so i've always got some form of identification. but how many people know how to get hold of the, in inverted commas, free voter certificate, who has looked at their polling cards to look at the details of our acceptable identification? it is in the polling cards, but how many people have seen that in the national media, local media, and you can easily go online, it hasn't got a telephone number on here, unfortunately, but if you have got web access, you are ok. but how many people know about all of that? isu’eiiii.

people know about all of that? well, this is the voter _ people know about all of that? well, this is the voter authority _ this is the voter authority certificate, if you are one of the estimated 2 million people without a valid form of ide, and 20,000 people, i hope i am right, i have been trying to follow rishi sunak�*s plea, it is i%. been trying to follow rishi sunak's plea. it is 1%.— plea, it is 1%. yes, that is right. thank yom _ plea, it is 1%. yes, that is right. thank you. that _ plea, it is 1%. yes, that is right. thank you. that is _ plea, it is 1%. yes, that is right. thank you. that is not - plea, it is 1%. yes, that is right. thank you. that is not very - plea, it is 1%. yes, that is right. l thank you. that is not very many, plea, it is 1%. yes, that is right. - thank you. that is not very many, is it? ~ . thank you. that is not very many, is it? . . , thank you. that is not very many, is it? . ,, , ., thank you. that is not very many, is it? . , ., it? which is probably a sign of voter apathy. _ it? which is probably a sign of voter apathy, because - it? which is probably a sign of voter apathy, because if - it? which is probably a sign of voter apathy, because if you l it? which is probably a sign of. voter apathy, because if you want it? which is probably a sign of - voter apathy, because if you want to vote, you know, we have a two weeks to go, give or take, the polling cards are through, so if you want to vote, you would see that it is not the same, open it up, read the information, and if you want to vote, i haven't got identification... ~ , ., ., identification... with they want to iron out the _ identification... with they want to iron out the creases _ identification... with they want to iron out the creases in _ identification. .. with they want to iron out the creases in our- iron out the creases in our democratic process, why don't they go for compulsory voting? he says, hiding under the table! i

go for compulsory voting? he says, hiding under the table!— hiding under the table! i don't disauree hiding under the table! i don't disagree with _ hiding under the table! i don't disagree with it _ hiding under the table! i don't disagree with it at _ hiding under the table! i don't disagree with it at all, - hiding under the table! i don't| disagree with it at all, because hiding under the table! i don't l disagree with it at all, because i think if people want to complain about things constantly, and i listen to your show as often as i can, people are always complaining about something, and it is normally politically related. you can't complain if you don't involve yourself in the system. that is the easiest way of doing it. phil yourself in the system. that is the easiest way of doing it.— easiest way of doing it. phil in barrow-in-furness, _ easiest way of doing it. phil in barrow-in-furness, is - easiest way of doing it. phil in barrow-in-furness, is that. easiest way of doing it. phil in | barrow-in-furness, is that the barrow—in—furness, is that the easiest way of doing it? i barrow-in-furness, is that the easiest way of doing it?- easiest way of doing it? i don't know about — easiest way of doing it? i don't know about compulsory - easiest way of doing it? i don't| know about compulsory voting, easiest way of doing it? i don't i know about compulsory voting, i think_ know about compulsory voting, i think id — know about compulsory voting, i think it) is — know about compulsory voting, i think id is a perfectly valid thing to have, — think id is a perfectly valid thing to have, and it was a photo id, and ido to have, and it was a photo id, and i do have _ to have, and it was a photo id, and ido have an— to have, and it was a photo id, and i do have an issue with it being put in for— i do have an issue with it being put in for voting. — i do have an issue with it being put in forvoting, and i do i do have an issue with it being put in for voting, and i do have an issue — in for voting, and i do have an issue with _ in for voting, and i do have an issue with the government charging people _ issue with the government charging people to _ issue with the government charging people to vote, which is what it looks _ people to vote, which is what it looks like. _ people to vote, which is what it looks like, yet another stealth tax. that you _ looks like, yet another stealth tax. that you have got to stump up for some of this. so you wouldn't have a

problem carrying voter id, but it is the fact, the kerfuffle of getting it together and getting it. absolutely, and if our government want _ absolutely, and if our government want every— absolutely, and if our government want every individual in this country— want every individual in this country to have an id, then make it veryand— country to have an id, then make it very and make it possible for people who cannot — very and make it possible for people who cannot afford to have their photograph taken, because what happens — photograph taken, because what happens here, as you said earlier, the lowest — happens here, as you said earlier, the lowest percentage of people, the smallest— the lowest percentage of people, the smallest percentage of people in the lowest _ smallest percentage of people in the lowest incomes will be disenfranchised. and it isjust another— disenfranchised. and it isjust another way, disenfranchised. and it isjust anotherway, i disenfranchised. and it isjust another way, i think, disenfranchised. and it isjust anotherway, ithink, of disenfranchised. and it isjust another way, i think, of the government sneakily making a few quid or— government sneakily making a few quid or taking government sneakily making a few quid ortaking a government sneakily making a few quid or taking a group of people out of the _ quid or taking a group of people out of the voting system.— of the voting system. there has not been proper — of the voting system. there has not been proper legislation _ of the voting system. there has not been proper legislation on - of the voting system. there has not been proper legislation on this - been proper legislation on this since 1872, can you not see the point? it since 1872, can you not see the oint? , , ., since 1872, can you not see the oint? , , . ., , ., point? it is strange that they have done it for voting _ point? it is strange that they have done it for voting now _ point? it is strange that they have done it for voting now stop - point? it is strange that they have done it for voting now stop they . point? it is strange that they have i done it for voting now stop they are in trouble, — done it for voting now stop they are in trouble, they are struggling. you

are a ve in trouble, they are struggling. moi. are a very cynical man. in trouble, they are struggling. you are a very cynical man. i _ in trouble, they are struggling. you are a very cynical man. i don't - in trouble, they are struggling. you | are a very cynical man. i don't know whether i are a very cynical man. i don't know whether i am _ are a very cynical man. i don't know whether i am cynical, _ are a very cynical man. i don't know whether i am cynical, just _ are a very cynical man. i don't know whether i am cynical, just looking i whether i am cynical, just looking at it. _ whether i am cynical, just looking at it. it _ whether i am cynical, just looking at it, it seems like if we are going to do— at it, it seems like if we are going to do it. _ at it, it seems like if we are going to do it, don't pick on this particular— to do it, don't pick on this particular time. to do it, don't pick on this particulartime. but to do it, don't pick on this particular time. but a free id card for everyone in the country, then i have _ for everyone in the country, then i have no— for everyone in the country, then i have no issue with it, i have carried _ have no issue with it, i have carried it _ have no issue with it, i have carried it all my working life. i'm sure _ carried it all my working life. i'm sure you — carried it all my working life. i'm sure you have to get want to go into the bbc_ sure you have to get want to go into the bbc with your name on it and your— the bbc with your name on it and your picture. mind, you are well—known! no, at times i have not had it— well—known! no, at times i have not had it and _ well—known! no, at times i have not had it and i— well—known! no, at times i have not had it and i have had to fill in loads— had it and i have had to fill in loads of— had it and i have had to fill in loads of forms at the front door. i loads of forms at the front door. didn't even loads of forms at the front door. i didn't even say, don't you know who i am?! i went with it, you have got to do that! that would be delightful for most listeners! alison in sheffield, iwill for most listeners! alison in sheffield, i will come to allen in glasgow, you have been there for a

while, what do you think? i was glasgow, you have been there for a while, what do you think?— while, what do you think? i was in the glasgow— while, what do you think? i was in the glasgow police, _ while, what do you think? i was in the glasgow police, nicky, - while, what do you think? i was in the glasgow police, nicky, and . while, what do you think? i was in the glasgow police, nicky, and i l the glasgow police, nicky, and i will tell— the glasgow police, nicky, and i will tell you, it is a strawman argument _ will tell you, it is a strawman argument to say only so many convictions and such and such a year~ _ convictions and such and such a year~ look— convictions and such and such a year. look at the number of people who are _ year. look at the number of people who are scammed on the internet. how many— who are scammed on the internet. how many of— who are scammed on the internet. how many of those in dublin convictions? very, _ many of those in dublin convictions? very, very— many of those in dublin convictions? very, very few. in order to get a conviction, — very, very few. in order to get a conviction, you need to catch somebody and report them, and here in scotland _ somebody and report them, and here in scotland to the procurator fiscal. — in scotland to the procurator fiscal. so _ in scotland to the procurator fiscal, so by the time it ends up there. _ fiscal, so by the time it ends up there. it — fiscal, so by the time it ends up there. it is — fiscal, so by the time it ends up there, it is very different from the number— there, it is very different from the number of— there, it is very different from the number of people committing the offence. — number of people committing the offence, especially in a case like this, _ offence, especially in a case like this, where you can have the offence committed _ this, where you can have the offence committed repeatedly. imagine the person— committed repeatedly. imagine the person who you are impersonating is actually _ person who you are impersonating is actually dead. imagine that they come _ actually dead. imagine that they come in — actually dead. imagine that they come in hours after you, actually dead. imagine that they come in hours afteryou, i'm actually dead. imagine that they come in hours after you, i'm sorry, you cannot — come in hours after you, i'm sorry, you cannot vote, you have already

voted, _ you cannot vote, you have already voted, so — you cannot vote, you have already voted, so a — you cannot vote, you have already voted, so a big hullabaloo, and then what happens, nothing,, so you cannot— what happens, nothing,, so you cannot gauge the seriousness of these _ cannot gauge the seriousness of these cases if there is no conviction. it doesn't float my boat at alt _ conviction. it doesn't float my boat at all. when i was a policeman, you went— at all. when i was a policeman, you went out, _ at all. when i was a policeman, you went out, you stop to people, you investigated things, housebreaking are notoriously difficult and very few people commit them. very few are convicted _ few people commit them. very few are convicted of— few people commit them. very few are convicted of all those they commit. to say, _ convicted of all those they commit. to say, well, there were six convictions, there were 19, well, how does— convictions, there were 19, well, how does that translate? does that mean _ how does that translate? does that mean there were 2000 or 20,000 cases of this—

mean there were 2000 or 20,000 cases of this but— mean there were 2000 or 20,000 cases of this but we — mean there were 2000 or 20,000 cases of this but we only got 19 people? hmm~ _ of this but we only got 19 people? hmm. most of it is down to human error, though, when there have been mistakes, regularities. let's bring injack mistakes, regularities. let's bring in jack in mistakes, regularities. let's bring injack in west london and also alison, hi, alison, iwould like your opinion on this, anyone, i will just read it out, you grabs it first can. canada allow a citizen who has id and appears on the electoral roll to sign an affidavit confirming the identity of another voter who does not have identification. ida identity of another voter who does not have identification.— not have identification. no idea, i've not have identification. no idea, we never— not have identification. no idea, i've never heard _ not have identification. no idea, i've never heard of _ not have identification. no idea, i've never heard of anything - not have identification. no idea, i've never heard of anything like i i've never heard of anything like that, i'mjust i've never heard of anything like that, i'm just interested about over here in the uk. i5 that, i'm just interested about over here in the uk.— here in the uk. is that not a good idea, here in the uk. is that not a good idea. you — here in the uk. is that not a good idea. you can _ here in the uk. is that not a good idea, you can vouch _ here in the uk. is that not a good idea, you can vouch for— here in the uk. is that not a good l idea, you can vouch for somebody? yeah, i think it is a good idea, yeah.

yeah, i think it is a good idea, eah. �* yeah, i think it is a good idea, eah. .,, yeah. crv -- crb applications need somebody to _ yeah. crv -- crb applications need somebody to vouch _ yeah. crv -- crb applications need somebody to vouch for _ yeah. crv -- crb applications need somebody to vouch for you. - yeah. crv -- crb applications need somebody to vouch for you. that. yeah. crv -- crb applications need somebody to vouch for you. that is| somebody to vouch for you. that is ri . ht. i somebody to vouch for you. that is right- i would _ somebody to vouch for you. that is right. i would regard _ somebody to vouch for you. that is right. i would regard that - somebody to vouch for you. that is right. i would regard that as - somebody to vouch for you. that is right. i would regard that as morel right. i would regard that as more serious than _ right. i would regard that as more serious than somebody _ right. i would regard that as more serious than somebody trying - right. i would regard that as more serious than somebody trying to l right. i would regard that as more i serious than somebody trying to get their 18—year—old kids to vote for them _ their 18-year-old kids to vote for them. ., ., . their 18-year-old kids to vote for them. ., ., , ., ., ~ ., them. how does that work, do you have one of _ them. how does that work, do you have one of our _ them. how does that work, do you have one of our learned _ them. how does that work, do you have one of our learned friends - them. how does that work, do you have one of our learned friends in | have one of our learned friends in the polling station with a pile of affidavits to sign? goodness me. alison, what do you want to say? i’m alison, what do you want to say? i'm sor , it alison, what do you want to say? i'm sorry. it is — alison, what do you want to say? i'm sorry. it is a — alison, what do you want to say? in sorry, it is a bad line, i am not really picking up... i have got a hospital appointment... my 21—year—old son... voting by post, i had a brain haemorrhage last month, so i can't walk up to where i have to go, so it is difficult for me at the moment,

sojust our opposition to is difficult for me at the moment, so just our opposition to what this government is doing to stop people from voting, we have built sent a postal vote. sorry, that is... can ou postal vote. sorry, that is. .. can you hear— postal vote. sorry, that is... can you hear me _ postal vote. sorry, that is... can you hear me 0k? _ postalvote. sorry, that is... can you hear me ok? you think that is what they are doing?— what they are doing? yeah, of course! stop _ what they are doing? yeah, of course! stop people _ what they are doing? yeah, of course! stop people voting? l course! stop people voting? definitely. _ course! stop people voting? definitely. 1— course! stop people voting? definitely, i know _ course! stop people voting? definitely, i know it. - course! stop people voting? definitely, i know it. i- course! stop people voting? definitely, i know it. i don't| course! stop people voting? - definitely, i know it. i don't have a driving licence, but i have a passport, my son has a passport, my mum is in her 80s, housebound, she has not left the house since before lockdown because she is physically unable. she has never had a passport or driving, how does she vote? and she has always voted, she is in her 80s, she is not allowed to vote because she has no id.- 80s, she is not allowed to vote | because she has no id.- i 80s, she is not allowed to vote - because she has no id.- i hope because she has no id. nicky? i hope all aoes because she has no id. nicky? i hope all goes well — because she has no id. nicky? i hope all goes well with _ because she has no id. nicky? i hope all goes well with the _ because she has no id. nicky? i hope all goes well with the hospital - all goes well with the hospital appointment. we are joined all goes well with the hospital appointment. we arejoined by all goes well with the hospital appointment. we are joined by the

head of electoral reform, did you hear all of that, darren, head of electoral reform, did you hearall of that, darren, how head of electoral reform, did you hear all of that, darren, how does she vote? it hear all of that, darren, how does she vote? . hear all of that, darren, how does she vote? , . hear all of that, darren, how does shevote? , . , , she vote? it is concerning, because that caller's — she vote? it is concerning, because that caller's mother— she vote? it is concerning, because that caller's mother has _ she vote? it is concerning, because that caller's mother has had - she vote? it is concerning, because that caller's mother has had a - that caller's mother has had a lifetime of voting and we are getting in the way of that with this new requirement. she can apply for a voter authority certificate for free, there is information online, but the deadline for that is next tuesday at 5pm, so not a lot of time left. roughly a quarter of people do not know this is happening. what has come through the whole conversation as there is a variety of reasons why people might not have ide, and until it becomes compulsory for everything, people are not required to justify that, and you have to put yourself in other people's shoes, just because you might use id every day, it does not mean that is true for every single person in the

country. the one thing that is true for everyone over the age of 18 was that they can register to vote, that is precious, and we have to protect that. pretending that there is some sort of fraud is doing a disservice to something that does work quite well. we can argue about the voting system itself, ithink well. we can argue about the voting system itself, i think it should be proportional representation where every vote counts, that is a debate, but we would never divide whether our votes being counted accurately at polling stations. i think having senior government people raise that as a concern is putting out misinformation, really, because that is something that we can agree on. but, alan, your point is that we do not know the level of it. that but, alan, your point is that we do not know the level of it.— not know the level of it. that is ri . ht, not know the level of it. that is riiht, it not know the level of it. that is right. it is _ not know the level of it. that is right, it is unquantifiable, - not know the level of it. that is right, it is unquantifiable, it. not know the level of it. that is right, it is unquantifiable, it is| not know the level of it. that is| right, it is unquantifiable, it is a strawman— right, it is unquantifiable, it is a strawman argument to say, you know, we had _ strawman argument to say, you know, we had 20 — strawman argument to say, you know, we had 20 convictions in the year dot. _ we had 20 convictions in the year dot. you — we had 20 convictions in the year dot. you know, it doesn't matter. it is the _ dot. you know, it doesn't matter. it is the number— dot. you know, it doesn't matter. it is the number of cases that you don't _ is the number of cases that you don't detect. it could be in the

thousands, it could only be in the dozens. _ thousands, it could only be in the dozens. but— thousands, it could only be in the dozens, but we don't know that. people _ dozens, but we don't know that. people are — dozens, but we don't know that. people are making unquantifiable claims. _ people are making unquantifiable claims. ~ ., , claims. who else was coming in there? i claims. who else was coming in there? i am _ claims. who else was coming in there? i am sorry _ claims. who else was coming in there? i am sorry to _ claims. who else was coming in there? i am sorry to interrupt, l claims. who else was coming in i there? i am sorry to interrupt, but i hear there? i am sorry to interrupt, but i hear what — there? i am sorry to interrupt, but i hear what the _ there? i am sorry to interrupt, but i hear what the gentleman - there? i am sorry to interrupt, but i hear what the gentleman from i there? i am sorry to interrupt, but| i hear what the gentleman from the police. _ i hear what the gentleman from the police. ex— i hear what the gentleman from the police, ex policeman _ i hear what the gentleman from the police, ex policeman is _ i hear what the gentleman from the police, ex policeman is saying, - i hear what the gentleman from the police, ex policeman is saying, and| police, ex policeman is saying, and he has _ police, ex policeman is saying, and he has got — police, ex policeman is saying, and he has got a — police, ex policeman is saying, and he has got a valid _ police, ex policeman is saying, and he has got a valid point, _ police, ex policeman is saying, and he has got a valid point, but- police, ex policeman is saying, and he has got a valid point, but is- he has got a valid point, but is that— he has got a valid point, but is that a — he has got a valid point, but is that a reason _ he has got a valid point, but is that a reason to, _ he has got a valid point, but is that a reason to, at _ he has got a valid point, but is that a reason to, at a - he has got a valid point, but is that a reason to, at a stroke, i that a reason to, at a stroke, disenfranchised _ that a reason to, at a stroke, disenfranchised 2 _ that a reason to, at a stroke, disenfranchised 2 million - that a reason to, at a stroke, i disenfranchised 2 million people that a reason to, at a stroke, - disenfranchised 2 million people who will not _ disenfranchised 2 million people who will not be _ disenfranchised 2 million people who will not be able _ disenfranchised 2 million people who will not be able to _ disenfranchised 2 million people who will not be able to vote? _ disenfranchised 2 million people who will not be able to vote? are - disenfranchised 2 million people who will not be able to vote? are you - will not be able to vote? are you suggesting... _ will not be able to vote? are you suggesting... you _ will not be able to vote? are you suggesting... you have - will not be able to vote? are you suggesting... you have to - will not be able to vote? are you suggesting... you have to thinkl suggesting... you have to think about— suggesting... you have to think about the — suggesting... you have to think about the balance _ suggesting... you have to think about the balance in _ suggesting... you have to think about the balance in this, - suggesting... you have to think about the balance in this, and l suggesting... you have to think about the balance in this, and i| about the balance in this, and i agree _ about the balance in this, and i agree that _ about the balance in this, and i agree that there _ about the balance in this, and i agree that there will— about the balance in this, and i agree that there will quite - about the balance in this, and i- agree that there will quite possibly be undetected _ agree that there will quite possibly be undetected voter— agree that there will quite possibly be undetected voter fraud, - agree that there will quite possibly be undetected voter fraud, but- agree that there will quite possibly be undetected voter fraud, but arei be undetected voter fraud, but are we talking — be undetected voter fraud, but are we talking about _ be undetected voter fraud, but are we talking about in _ be undetected voter fraud, but are we talking about in the _ be undetected voter fraud, but are we talking about in the millions? l be undetected voter fraud, but are| we talking about in the millions? it 'ust we talking about in the millions? it just seems— we talking about in the millions? it just seems grossly _ we talking about in the millions? it just seems grossly unfair _ we talking about in the millions? it just seems grossly unfair to - we talking about in the millions? itl just seems grossly unfair to prevent these _ just seems grossly unfair to prevent these people. — just seems grossly unfair to prevent these people. for— just seems grossly unfair to prevent these people. for example, - just seems grossly unfair to prevent these people. for example, that. these people. for example, that 85-year-old _ these people. for example, that 85-year-old lady— these people. for example, that 85—year—old lady who _ these people. for example, that 85—year—old lady who cannot - these people. for example, that 85—year—old lady who cannot gol these people. for example, that. 85—year—old lady who cannot go to the town _ 85—year—old lady who cannot go to the town hall — 85—year—old lady who cannot go to the town hall to _ 85—year—old lady who cannot go to the town hall to get _ 85—year—old lady who cannot go to the town hall to get a _ 85—year—old lady who cannot go to the town hall to get a voter - 85—year—old lady who cannot go to the town hall to get a voter id, - the town hall to get a voter id, local— the town hall to get a voter id, local authority, _ the town hall to get a voter id, local authority, and _ the town hall to get a voter id, local authority, and their- the town hall to get a voter id, local authority, and their art i the town hall to get a voter id, i local authority, and their art maybe lots of _ local authority, and their art maybe lots of people — local authority, and their art maybe lots of people like _ local authority, and their art maybe lots of people like that _ local authority, and their art maybe lots of people like that you - local authority, and their art maybe lots of people like that you are i local authority, and their art maybe lots of people like that you are noti lots of people like that you are not online. _

lots of people like that you are not online. we — lots of people like that you are not online, we will— lots of people like that you are not online, we will not _ lots of people like that you are not online, we will not have _ lots of people like that you are not online, we will not have seen i lots of people like that you are not online, we will not have seen the i online, we will not have seen the publicity — online, we will not have seen the publicity and _ online, we will not have seen the publicity and will _ online, we will not have seen the publicity and will not _ online, we will not have seen the publicity and will not be - online, we will not have seen the publicity and will not be able i online, we will not have seen the publicity and will not be able to l publicity and will not be able to apply— publicity and will not be able to apply for— publicity and will not be able to apply for this _ publicity and will not be able to apply for this voter— publicity and will not be able to apply for this voter authority i apply for this voter authority easily— apply for this voter authority easily at _ apply for this voter authority easily at all. _ apply for this voter authority easily at all, and _ apply for this voter authority easily at all, and it - apply for this voter authority easily at all, and it will- apply for this voter authority easily at all, and it will costl apply for this voter authority i easily at all, and it will cost them money. _ easily at all, and it will cost them money. so. — easily at all, and it will cost them money. so. you _ easily at all, and it will cost them money. so, you know, _ easily at all, and it will cost them money. so, you know, it - easily at all, and it will cost them money. so, you know, it seems, | easily at all, and it will cost them i money. so, you know, it seems, as i say. _ money. so, you know, it seems, as i say. very— money. so, you know, it seems, as i say, very undemocratic, _ money. so, you know, it seems, as i say, very undemocratic, it _ money. so, you know, it seems, as i say, very undemocratic, it could i say, very undemocratic, it could lose _ say, very undemocratic, it could lose all— say, very undemocratic, it could lose all those _ say, very undemocratic, it could lose all those people _ say, very undemocratic, it could lose all those people for - say, very undemocratic, it could lose all those people for the i say, very undemocratic, it could. lose all those people for the sake of what _ lose all those people for the sake of what we — lose all those people for the sake of what we think— lose all those people for the sake of what we think is _ lose all those people for the sake of what we think is a _ lose all those people for the sake of what we think is a very - lose all those people for the sake of what we think is a very low i lose all those people for the sake i of what we think is a very low level of what we think is a very low level of electoral— of what we think is a very low level of electoral fraud. _ of what we think is a very low level of electoral fraud.— of electoral fraud. well, we don't know, do of electoral fraud. well, we don't know. do we _ of electoral fraud. well, we don't know, do we have _ of electoral fraud. well, we don't know, do we have any _ of electoral fraud. well, we don't know, do we have any idea, i of electoral fraud. well, we don't i know, do we have any idea, darren, that the number of people who don't have voter id and don't have this certificate and will not get the certificate and will not get the certificate to vote anyway, because loads of people don't?— loads of people don't? there are a few ste -s loads of people don't? there are a few steps in _ loads of people don't? there are a few steps in there, _ loads of people don't? there are a few steps in there, people - loads of people don't? there are a few steps in there, people who i loads of people don't? there are a | few steps in there, people who are not on the register, people who are but do not show up. research suggest about 2 million people don't have the kind of ide they are requiring, so that is why they have introduced this voter authority certificate, but the take—up of that has not been anywhere near 2 million. i�*s. but the take—up of that has not been anywhere near 2 million. i’s nudging anywhere near2 million. 1%. nudging around 60,000 people in the last

week, probably gone up a little bit more. ~ . week, probably gone up a little bit more, ~ .. .. week, probably gone up a little bit more. . . ., ., , more. what about the other things that have come _ more. what about the other things that have come up, _ more. what about the other things that have come up, for _ more. what about the other things that have come up, for example i that have come up, for example compulsory voting? i that have come up, for example compulsory voting?— that have come up, for example compulsory voting? i think we have not a lot compulsory voting? i think we have got a lot of— compulsory voting? i think we have got a lot of problems _ compulsory voting? i think we have got a lot of problems to _ compulsory voting? i think we have got a lot of problems to fix - compulsory voting? i think we have got a lot of problems to fix without | got a lot of problems to fix without voting _ got a lot of problems to fix without voting system before we go down the compulsory line. the use of data, whether— compulsory line. the use of data, whether or— compulsory line. the use of data, whether or not they should be id for everything. — whether or not they should be id for everything, bigger cities and debates need to take place, not sort of snuck— debates need to take place, not sort of snuck into a topic like voter id. i of snuck into a topic like voter id. i take _ of snuck into a topic like voter id. i take the — of snuck into a topic like voter id. i take the point about being able to quantify— i take the point about being able to quantify things you do not know about. — quantify things you do not know about, but when you have elections where _ about, but when you have elections where two — about, but when you have elections where two thirds of the people do show— where two thirds of the people do show up. — where two thirds of the people do show up. it— where two thirds of the people do show up, it is a lot of people taking — show up, it is a lot of people taking the risk pretending to be someone — taking the risk pretending to be someone else, it is a crime to impersonate someone at the ballot box, impersonate someone at the ballot box. and _ impersonate someone at the ballot box. and i— impersonate someone at the ballot box, and i am talking to you from south-east— box, and i am talking to you from south—east london, and when my local mp wins— south—east london, and when my local mp wins by— south—east london, and when my local mp wins by 33,000 votes, it would require _ mp wins by 33,000 votes, it would require a _ mp wins by 33,000 votes, it would require a lot of people to pretend to be _ require a lot of people to pretend to be someone else to overturn the ad. but _ to be someone else to overturn the ad. but if— to be someone else to overturn the ad. but if you look at northeast

fife in— ad. but if you look at northeast fife in scotland in 2017, the candidate who won was by only two votes. _ candidate who won was by only two votes. so _ candidate who won was by only two votes, so there is lots to say about that. _ votes, so there is lots to say about that, campaign tactics and strategy, but no-one — that, campaign tactics and strategy, but no—one seriously said that the victory— but no—one seriously said that the victory was — but no—one seriously said that the victory was because of voter impersonation and fraud, sol victory was because of voter impersonation and fraud, so i think, you know. _ impersonation and fraud, so i think, you know. i— impersonation and fraud, so i think, you know, itake impersonation and fraud, so i think, you know, i take the point the odds are that _ you know, i take the point the odds are that there was fraud. can you know, i take the point the odds are that there was fraud.— are that there was fraud. can you answer the _ are that there was fraud. can you answer the question _ are that there was fraud. can you answer the question for - are that there was fraud. can you answer the question for me, i are that there was fraud. can you answer the question for me, if i are that there was fraud. can you | answer the question for me, if we were in the pub right now, you are an important man in the area of electoral reform, and you said there has to be a lot of stuff on the road before we get to the destination of compulsory voting, if we were in the pub, and i said, what you think about compulsory voting? i pub, and i said, what you think about compulsory voting? i would say i am not in favour _ about compulsory voting? i would say i am not in favour of _ about compulsory voting? i would say i am not in favour of it, _ about compulsory voting? i would say i am not in favour of it, i _ about compulsory voting? i would say i am not in favour of it, i don't - i am not in favour of it, i don't like— i am not in favour of it, i don't like the — i am not in favour of it, i don't like the principle of it, because i .et like the principle of it, because i get why— like the principle of it, because i get why people argue for it, for a good _ get why people argue for it, for a good reason, because they want to see everyone participating in democracy, but my theory is that if

people _ democracy, but my theory is that if people are — democracy, but my theory is that if people are so disillusioned, and that is— people are so disillusioned, and that is a — people are so disillusioned, and that is a word that has come up on the programme, so disillusioned that they stop _ the programme, so disillusioned that they stop voting, i think we should demand _ they stop voting, i think we should demand politics where our candidates and policies inspire us to. to me, it is like _ and policies inspire us to. to me, it is like rewarding people who have created _ it is like rewarding people who have created this political environment where _ created this political environment where people who do not want to vote by saying. _ where people who do not want to vote by saying, we will give you a guarantee of 100% turnout, it doesn't — guarantee of 100% turnout, it doesn't matter how good your policies — doesn't matter how good your policies are or what your candidate selection _ policies are or what your candidate selection is. — policies are or what your candidate selection is. but policies are or what your candidate selection is— selection is. but if you had compulsory _ selection is. but if you had compulsory voting, - selection is. but if you had compulsory voting, the i selection is. but if you had i compulsory voting, the argument selection is. but if you had _ compulsory voting, the argument goes that politicians would be more inclined to tailor policies for the people who voted for them, ie everyone, ratherthan people who voted for them, ie everyone, rather than in far more narrowly focused amounts of the electorate. claire, david, david and claire, good morning to both of you. what do you think? good idea, voter id, david? ., .

what do you think? good idea, voter id, david? ., , , id, david? hello, nicky, everybody. id, david? hello, nicky, everybody. i personally — id, david? hello, nicky, everybody. i personally believe _ id, david? hello, nicky, everybody. i personally believe that _ id, david? hello, nicky, everybody. i personally believe that id - id, david? hello, nicky, everybody. i personally believe that id is - id, david? hello, nicky, everybody. i personally believe that id is a i i personally believe that id is a modern — i personally believe that id is a modern necessity. my point is, if it is a mandatory thing required by the government, they should fund it. it should _ government, they should fund it. it should not— government, they should fund it. it should not be down to the individual to pay— should not be down to the individual to pay for— should not be down to the individual to pay for an id to prove who you are. _ to pay for an id to prove who you are. and — to pay for an id to prove who you are. and as — to pay for an id to prove who you are. and asi— to pay for an id to prove who you are, and as i said in my original message. — are, and as i said in my original message. is— are, and as i said in my original message, is thisjust are, and as i said in my original message, is this just a way to get the national id that has been sought after for— the national id that has been sought after for decades? and the national id that has been sought after for decades?— the national id that has been sought after for decades? and what is wrong with that? what — after for decades? and what is wrong with that? what is _ after for decades? and what is wrong with that? what is wrong _ after for decades? and what is wrong with that? what is wrong with - after for decades? and what is wrong with that? what is wrong with a i with that? what is wrong with a national id card?— national id card? personally, i don't national id card? personally, i dontthink— national id card? personally, i don't think there _ national id card? personally, i don't think there is _ national id card? personally, i don't think there is a - national id card? personally, i don't think there is a problem | national id card? personally, i- don't think there is a problem with it, don't think there is a problem with it. but— don't think there is a problem with it. but if— don't think there is a problem with it, but if they want us to carry something _ it, but if they want us to carry something like that, then they fund it. ., something like that, then they fund it. . ., ., something like that, then they fund it. . . ., . totall it. can i add to that? totally auree! it. can i add to that? totally agree! thank _ it. can i add to that? totally agree! thank you. _ it. can i add to that? totally agree! thank you. when i it. can i add to that? totally| agree! thank you. when this legislation — agree! thank you. when this

legislation was _ agree! thank you. when this legislation was going - agree! thank you. when this| legislation was going through agree! thank you. when this i legislation was going through the house _ legislation was going through the house of— legislation was going through the house of commons, _ legislation was going through the house of commons, there - legislation was going through the house of commons, there was. legislation was going through the house of commons, there was al house of commons, there was a provision — house of commons, there was a provision originally— house of commons, there was a provision originally to _ house of commons, there was a provision originally to copy i house of commons, there was a provision originally to copy what| provision originally to copy what they did — provision originally to copy what they did in — provision originally to copy what they did in northern _ provision originally to copy what they did in northern ireland. i they did in northern ireland. everybody— they did in northern ireland. everybody in _ they did in northern ireland. everybody in northern - they did in northern ireland. i everybody in northern ireland did .et everybody in northern ireland did get a _ everybody in northern ireland did get a voting — everybody in northern ireland did get a voting authority _ everybody in northern ireland did get a voting authority document i everybody in northern ireland did i get a voting authority document that was genuinely — get a voting authority document that was genuinely free _ get a voting authority document that was genuinely free in _ get a voting authority document that was genuinely free in about - get a voting authority document that was genuinely free in about 2003, l was genuinely free in about 2003, everybody— was genuinely free in about 2003, everybody was _ was genuinely free in about 2003, everybody was provided _ was genuinely free in about 2003, everybody was provided with - was genuinely free in about 2003, everybody was provided with that, i everybody was provided with that, but when — everybody was provided with that, but when it — everybody was provided with that, but when it was _ actually passed,... i was walking down a corridor _ actually passed,... i was walking down a corridor once _ actually passed,... i was walking down a corridor once in - actually passed,... i was walking down a corridor once in my - actually passed,... i was walking down a corridor once in my early| down a corridor once in my early days at the bbc, and a very high profile presenter of the today programme was boasting how he voted twice, once in his london constituency and one in his country home, i had onlyjustjoined the bbc, you can look at the roster of today programme presenters from 1987, and i was quite shocked, and i

guess it is quite easy to do what he did. or is it? in spain, everyone has a resident's photo id card. another one, there is a great deal of postal vote fraud, some students vote twice. some students vote twice in both home and college addresses. if you do not have id, apply for a passport or driving licence, if someone forgets to take their id, they are too stupid to deserve a vote! don't say that! well, you did, i read it, that is fine, it is a democracy. claire, what do you think? i democracy. claire, what do you think? ~' democracy. claire, what do you think? ~ ., , ., democracy. claire, what do you think? ~ ., ., , think? i think that if you really want to vote, _ think? i think that if you really want to vote, you _ think? i think that if you really want to vote, you will - think? i think that if you really want to vote, you will make i think? i think that if you really i want to vote, you will make sure that you can. and i'm looking at the polling card that came through my door few weeks polling card that came through my doorfew weeks ago, polling card that came through my door few weeks ago, telling me the information i need in order to vote, and it says on the front, you must bring photographic id, and there is a whole list of acceptable id, and

it finishes by saying, if you do not present this photographic id, you can apply to your local electoral registration officer for a free voter authority certificate, and it tells you that must be done by tuesday the 25th of april. 50 everybody up in arms about this, you have still got time to do this, for free, so i don't see why people are complaining that it costs money, unless i am missing something and there is something under the carpet that they find out about going down that they find out about going down that process. but it says it is free, and it all says, if you can't attend, you can apply to vote by proxy, orsomeone attend, you can apply to vote by proxy, or someone else can vote on your behalf, and it also says, before five o'clock next tuesday, so we still have time to do this. if everybody who wants to vote, read your polling card, it is there in black and white, and it is clearly saying that it is free, so i'm not sure what the problem is. if people

really want to vote, then the information is there telling you how to go about doing it. personally, the excuse of voter fraud for bringing in photo id, i do not buy that. however, idon't bringing in photo id, i do not buy that. however, i don't have a problem with it in general. darren? i saw ou problem with it in general. darren? i saw you metaphorically _ problem with it in general. darren? i saw you metaphorically stroking i i saw you metaphorically stroking your period. 1 i saw you metaphorically stroking your period-— i saw you metaphorically stroking your period. i am grateful for this metaphorical— your period. i am grateful for this metaphorical period _ your period. i am grateful for this metaphorical period when - your period. i am grateful for this metaphorical period when you - your period. i am grateful for this| metaphorical period when you ask questions — metaphorical period when you ask questions about the voting system! it is questions about the voting system! it is correct — questions about the voting system! it is correct that the voter authority certificate system is free, — authority certificate system is free, you _ authority certificate system is free, you have to get the application and, as was said, by tuesday — application and, as was said, by tuesday it _ application and, as was said, by tuesday. it is free at the moment. when _ tuesday. it is free at the moment. when you — tuesday. it is free at the moment. when you start introducing barriers to things. — when you start introducing barriers to things, who knows what will happen— to things, who knows what will happen down the years? in america, this topic— happen down the years? in america, this topic of— happen down the years? in america, this topic of voter id has become very poisonous and it is used as a way of— very poisonous and it is used as a way of pursuing voter suppression, as the _ way of pursuing voter suppression, as the debate has trotted along, and i as the debate has trotted along, and ithings— as the debate has trotted along, and i things like voter id, the way they

! things like voter id, the way they draw— i things like voter id, the way they draw constituency boundaries in america. — draw constituency boundaries in america, the way they found their politics— america, the way they found their politics there, i don't want to go down _ politics there, i don't want to go down the — politics there, i don't want to go down the path that they have across the atlantic, and i think that is why so— the atlantic, and i think that is why so many people are warning alarm bells why so many people are warning alarm belts about _ why so many people are warning alarm bells about going to this new system about— bells about going to this new system about id. _ bells about going to this new system about id, particularly because, as we have _ about id, particularly because, as we have been discussing, there is no evidence _ we have been discussing, there is no evidence of— we have been discussing, there is no evidence of a — we have been discussing, there is no evidence of a problem, but secondly, because _ evidence of a problem, but secondly, because of— evidence of a problem, but secondly, because of what it might open the door to, _ because of what it might open the doorto, people because of what it might open the door to, people who do not have id, there _ door to, people who do not have id, there witt— door to, people who do not have id, there will be — door to, people who do not have id, there will be a large number of people — there will be a large number of people phoning in to share their experiences are not.— people phoning in to share their experiences are not. some people will be going _ experiences are not. some people will be going home _ experiences are not. some people will be going home to _ experiences are not. some people will be going home to get - experiences are not. some people will be going home to get it, - experiences are not. some people| will be going home to get it, many people do not live far from a polling station. phil has worked in polling station. phil has worked in polling stations, thank you for your service, is this a problem?- service, is this a problem? nicky, aood service, is this a problem? nicky, good morning. — service, is this a problem? nicky, good morning. it _ service, is this a problem? nicky, good morning, it is _ service, is this a problem? nicky, good morning, it is not _ service, is this a problem? nicky, good morning, it is not a - service, is this a problem? nicky, | good morning, it is not a problem. the problem is getting people into the polling stations to actually vote. . the polling stations to actually vote.- voting _

the polling stations to actually vote. yes. voting should be compulsory. _ vote. yes. voting should be compulsory. we _ vote. yes. voting should be compulsory, we should - vote. yes. voting should be compulsory, we should move the election date to the weekend. if we honest about this, all problems of election fraud in the past few years have come from politicians, not the voters. ~ ., have come from politicians, not the voters. ~ . ., , ., . have come from politicians, not the voters— well. i voters. what do you mean? well, overspending _ voters. what do you mean? well, overspending on _ voters. what do you mean? well, overspending on campaigns - voters. what do you mean? well, overspending on campaigns and l voters. what do you mean? well, i overspending on campaigns and that sort of thing. there is where the problems lie in politics, money, not with the voters.— with the voters. excellently made a oint. with the voters. excellently made a point- darren. _ with the voters. excellently made a point. darren, how— with the voters. excellently made a point. darren, how far _ with the voters. excellently made a point. darren, how far away - with the voters. excellently made a point. darren, how far away are - with the voters. excellently made a point. darren, how far away are we | point. darren, how far away are we from internet voting?— from internet voting? well, there has been a _ from internet voting? well, there has been a lot _ from internet voting? well, there has been a lot of— from internet voting? well, there has been a lot of improvements l from internet voting? well, there l has been a lot of improvements on our security, — has been a lot of improvements on our security, and some countries do do it— our security, and some countries do do it quite _ our security, and some countries do do it quite effectively, but most people — do it quite effectively, but most people are not satisfied by what happens — people are not satisfied by what happens if the system crashes on the day, what _ happens if the system crashes on the day, what happens if there is interference, and there is something reassuring _ interference, and there is something reassuring about the paper ballot as a way _ reassuring about the paper ballot as a way of _ reassuring about the paper ballot as a way of auditing the election. we

need _ a way of auditing the election. we need to— a way of auditing the election. we need to go— a way of auditing the election. we need to go further toward security and reliability before you move something as important as an election— something as important as an election entirely online. but we can register— election entirely online. but we can register to — election entirely online. but we can register to vote online, that is only— register to vote online, that is only come _ register to vote online, that is only come out recently, so there are ways _ only come out recently, so there are ways to _ only come out recently, so there are ways to do _ only come out recently, so there are ways to do it. — only come out recently, so there are ways to do it, but when you put people — ways to do it, but when you put people on — ways to do it, but when you put people on the same system, you do .et people on the same system, you do get problems, it is not like a bank where _ get problems, it is not like a bank where every customer arrives at once, _ where every customer arrives at once, on— where every customer arrives at once, on election day people will be voting _ once, on election day people will be voting for— once, on election day people will be voting for lots of points, so there's— voting for lots of points, so there's a _ voting for lots of points, so there's a lot of water to go under that bridge. there's a lot of water to go under that bridge-— there's a lot of water to go under that bride. �* _, i. . that bridge. add in lincoln, you are sa in: that bridge. add in lincoln, you are saying there _ that bridge. add in lincoln, you are saying there is _ that bridge. add in lincoln, you are saying there is something - that bridge. add in lincoln, you are saying there is something rotten i that bridge. add in lincoln, you are saying there is something rotten ati saying there is something rotten at the heart of it but it is not voter fraud. thank you very much, cheers, phil! got to go, come back, we will speak to you again! great contributions this morning on the nation's phoning. back tomorrow with at least 78 people are killed in a crush at a ramada tomorrow with two crackers. thank you very much nation's phoning. back tomorrow with two crackers. thank you very much for listening, thank you very much for listening, thank you very much for listening, thank you very much for listening, thank you very much for watching. for watching. in a crush at a ramadan charity series series live from london, this is bbc news. live from london, this is bbc news.

at least 78 people are killed at least 78 people are killed in a crush at a ramadan charity event in a school in yemen. uk home secretary suella braverman is expected to be given new powers to deport asylum seekers arriving on british shores illegally. unicef warns around 67 million children globally may have missed routine vaccinations due to disruption caused by the pandemic. and what's it's like to be running a marathonjust after ending a ramadan fast.