good morning, friday morning, here we go, welcome to the nation's phone in. what makes a workplace bully? you tell me. is weighing up his options of what to do with dominic raab. the prime minister mulling over the report that dominic raab bullied civil servants, he denies the accusations. it has sparked a

lot of water cooler conversations about the issue, workplace culture, how is yours? have you experienced workplace bullying? what does it mean? where is the line? and high standards be mistaken for highhandedness? is there an obvious difference between a hard task master and a bully? what do you think? tell us what has gone on in your experience, have you felt bullied at work? where you —— where you listen to? some of the spare and as jacob rees—mogg said recently, a danger of it being snowflakey. what makes a workplace bully?

that is hard to get in touch and here is the news. thanks, nicky. opposition parties have accused the prime minister of dither and delay in making a decision about the fate of his deputy, dominic raab. rishi sunak received a report yesterday into complaints of bullying against mr raab, which he denies. a prompt response from downing street had been expected. ofsted says it won't be dropping the single—word assessment it uses for schools across england, despite calls to do so after the death of a headteacher. ruth perry took her own life while waiting for an ofsted report to be published, downgrading her school to inadequate. diplomatic pressure is being stepped up to end the fighting in sudan, which has left more than 300 people dead in the last week. the rapid support forces says it's agreed to a three—day ceasefire starting today to mark the muslim holiday of eid. there was no immediate comment from the army. but the sound of gunfire

and explosions can still be heard in the capital of khartoum. and poor weather has been partly blamed for a 0.9% fall in retail sales last month. the office for national statistics says heavy rain affected footfall in department stores, clothing shops and garden centres. workplace bullying, what is it? what makes a workplace bully? maybe hard to define but once you have experienced it, you know what it is. we will bring you the news on dominic raab as we get it right here, don't worry. much talk on workplace bullying i am sure among many people, we want your experiences. what is wrong with demanding the highest standards? my way or the highway. certainly

subjective. we are all different, clearly. when does an assertive style cross the line? we want an assertive boss, we don't want a weak force. these are challenging times, small businesses, fighting for survival. addressing performance is absolutely key, want to get things done, it is tough. the phone —— the fulljacob rees—mogg quote, he said we must not be to snowflakey about it, people need to be able to say, this job has it, people need to be able to say, thisjob has not been done it, people need to be able to say, this job has not been done well enough and needs to be done better. i am sure if he did it it would be done with great courtesy. i was saying early on, i was thinking, the best boss i have had demand at the highest standards, no—nonsense, no slackers, if people messed up, not pulling their weight, got you in the office, stressed your strengths, you

are really good at this, on this occasion, ijust felt are really good at this, on this occasion, i just felt you let yourself down a little bit. you left feeling praised and wanting to do better. motivation, it was brilliant. it was addressing down but he felt good about it. everyone has the interpersonal skills. what do you say if someone really messes up do you say if someone really messes up and you do not want them to mess up up and you do not want them to mess up next time? sarah allen, sir alex, a hairdryer, the indian head massage —— sir alan. a hairdryer, the indian head massage —— siralan. hello, tina. good morning. and hr advice, hello, dulcie. let us go with dan, military, fascinating, specific

context, i know things have changed, thanks for getting in touch. what would you like to say?— thanks for getting in touch. what would you like to say? good morning. a coule of would you like to say? good morning. a couple of points _ would you like to say? good morning. a couple of points you _ would you like to say? good morning. a couple of points you have _ would you like to say? good morning. a couple of points you have talked - a couple of points you have talked about. conflating bullying with feedback. i operated helicopters around the world, we have spoken briefly around my experiences, giving feedback is key and needed especially in the environment we work in. a quote i once read, that is constructive or supportive feedback, the rest is criticism. when jacob feedback, the rest is criticism. whenjacob rees—mogg says, what we need to be is less snowflakey, that is fine, we need to give feedback and make people better, you talked earlier on about the... lots of bread which is really good, sometimes not a lot of pride, that is very different from a constant intent and will fill the grading of someone's confidence which is bullying. when you purposefully put

people down or speak to them in a derogatory manner or make them feel poon derogatory manner or make them feel poor, that is bullying, it is not for feedback. poor, that is bullying, it is not forfeedback. feedback can be poor, that is bullying, it is not for feedback. feedback can be given in many ways. as you have highlighted. he in many ways. as you have highlighted-— in many ways. as you have highlighted. in many ways. as you have hiuuhlihted. . ., highlighted. he was a great bass. fantastic. everyone _ highlighted. he was a great bass. fantastic. everyone loved - highlighted. he was a great bass. fantastic. everyone loved him. i. highlighted. he was a great bass. i fantastic. everyone loved him. i had a very similar— fantastic. everyone loved him. i had a very similar experience _ fantastic. everyone loved him. i i—f. a very similar experience with fantastic. everyone loved him. i itfl a very similar experience with a recent boss, he would say, what happened? i explained everything. gave me the time. safe environment where you could openly speak. when you have bosses... it could be anyone. people who stop that safe environment, people who make the office space a toxic environment to work on because of fear of being able to openly talk honestly about what is going on, that position, authority orjust a horrible person, some people know about it, do nothing about it, some people don't realise they are doing it. how do you give them the feedback? the army

culture, the mod _ you give them the feedback? the army culture, the mod are _ you give them the feedback? the army culture, the mod are not _ you give them the feedback? the army culture, the mod are not here - you give them the feedback? the army culture, the mod are not here to - culture, the mod are not here to talk about this and address this particular issue, culture in the military has changed over the years, how long were you there? 19 years. did you ever get the hairdryerfrom the sergeant major or so—called superior? you horrible lot! i the sergeant major or so-called superior? you horrible lot! i messed u - , superior? you horrible lot! i messed u, i have superior? you horrible lot! i messed up. i have been _ superior? you horrible lot! i messed up, i have been given... _ superior? you horrible lot! i messed up, i have been given... it— superior? you horrible lot! i messed up, i have been given... it is- up, i have been given... it is different from bullying, different from people intent on using their position or authority, some experiences i have seen, i am in the air force, army and navy say, soft and cuddly in the air force. this is military and civil sector, i have worked in the civil sector with people... there is a danger people are insecure in their own ability and like to belittle other people because that is how bullies work or

they have been promoted to a level of incompetence. the fear is they will get seen. i have asked questions previously, we call it constructive dissent. if we follow along, great idea, great idea, the boss walks out of the room, worst idea i have ever heard. that is the disruptive consent. if we say, i kind of disagree with that, have you considered this? crack on. difference between a time and a place and taking orders and actually being able to say, i don't agree with that and getting shot down. interesting. pretty clear distinctions, you reckon. dulcie, what dan said about constant wilful degrading and undermining of someone's confidence, is there a clear line for you, dulcie? someone's confidence, is there a clear line foryou, dulcie? i someone's confidence, is there a clear line for you, dulcie?- clear line for you, dulcie? i think so.

clear line for you, dulcie? ithink so. it is clear line for you, dulcie? i think s0- it is a — clear line for you, dulcie? i think so. it is a really _ clear line for you, dulcie? i think so. it is a really difficult - clear line for you, dulcie? i think so. it is a really difficult one, - clear line for you, dulcie? i think so. it is a really difficult one, as| so. it is a really difficult one, as you have — so. it is a really difficult one, as you have said i think dan made some brilliant _ you have said i think dan made some brilliant points about it. i think you are — brilliant points about it. i think you are both right in the sense that people _ you are both right in the sense that people you — you are both right in the sense that people you have worked for have been exceptionally challenging to you, but the _ exceptionally challenging to you, but the thing that makes a difference is you had a really high level_ difference is you had a really high level of— difference is you had a really high level of trust in them and they really— level of trust in them and they really functional relationship with them _ really functional relationship with them and what the neuroscience helps us to understand is when you have to hide trust _ us to understand is when you have to hide trust relationship, when it is psychologically safe, you can actuaiiy _ psychologically safe, you can actually be hugely challenging and it does— actually be hugely challenging and it does not feel like degradation, it does not feel like degradation, it does— it does not feel like degradation, it does not feel like degradation, it does not feel like bullying, it feels _ it does not feel like bullying, it feels like — it does not feel like bullying, it feels like someone is on your side but giving — feels like someone is on your side but giving you the hardest feedback of your— but giving you the hardest feedback of your life. we want the challenging boss, loads of science suggests — challenging boss, loads of science suggests it is what we want, the combination of psychological safety and challenge. it appeals to us as hunion— and challenge. it appeals to us as human beings. and challenge. it appeals to us as human beinqs-— and challenge. it appeals to us as human beings.

and challenge. it appeals to us as human beinus. ., ., ., human beings. how do we get into the psychological — human beings. how do we get into the psychological safe _ human beings. how do we get into the psychological safe place? _ human beings. how do we get into the psychological safe place? again, - psychological safe place? again, loads of research, _ psychological safe place? again, loads of research, some - psychological safe place? again, loads of research, some really i loads of research, some really simple — loads of research, some really simple and surprising ones. one of the most _ simple and surprising ones. one of the most simple i share with readers all the _ the most simple i share with readers all the time, put your phone away. dan talked — all the time, put your phone away. dan talked about listening, it is crucial— dan talked about listening, it is crucial you _ dan talked about listening, it is crucial you feel you are being heard at work _ crucial you feel you are being heard at work and — crucial you feel you are being heard at work and you have a relationship that is— at work and you have a relationship that is reciprocal and one of the things— that is reciprocal and one of the things about modern life i say to people. — things about modern life i say to people, put your phone away, really small _ people, put your phone away, really small the _ people, put your phone away, really small. the director of... operations and technology at harvard, did loads of research _ and technology at harvard, did loads of research on building trust, top tip. of research on building trust, top tip the — of research on building trust, top tip. the other is building genuine connections with people. we can sense _ connections with people. we can sense as — connections with people. we can sense as human beings when it is fake _ sense as human beings when it is fake no— sense as human beings when it is fake. no short cut for leaders any more _ fake. no short cut for leaders any more because the science us unless we build _ more because the science us unless we build really deep, meaningful, genuine _ we build really deep, meaningful, genuine and pathetic relationships,

people _ genuine and pathetic relationships, people will receive our challenge as a threat _ people will receive our challenge as a threat -- — people will receive our challenge as a threat —— and pathetic. when we receive _ a threat —— and pathetic. when we receive challenge as a threat, our brains _ receive challenge as a threat, our brains don't — receive challenge as a threat, our brains don't work very well. actually, _ brains don't work very well. actually, performance, people think theyare _ actually, performance, people think they are being really challenging and doing it for really good intention, to drive performance,, i work— intention, to drive performance,, i work as— intention, to drive performance,, i work as an — intention, to drive performance,, i work as an executive coach all over the world, — work as an executive coach all over the world, if— work as an executive coach all over the world, if people receive your challenge — the world, if people receive your challenge as a threat, they are simply— challenge as a threat, they are simply not as clever and that tends to work— simply not as clever and that tends to work for— simply not as clever and that tends to work for a leader who is over exercising — to work for a leader who is over exercising the challenging muscle and, exercising the challenging muscle and. as— exercising the challenging muscle and, as you say, crossing the line that people — and, as you say, crossing the line that people feel... it is interesting, _ that people feel... it is interesting, a - that people feel... it is interesting, a lot - that people feel... it is interesting, a lot of. that people feel... it is - interesting, a lot of thought that people feel... it 3 interesting, a lot of thought being put into this, technical language, but ijust wonder, tina we will bring you in and john in cambridge coming up, and on in middlesex, what do you think? get in touch. ijust wonder if leaders with interpersonal skills are born or made? tina,

founder of nighthawk electronics, no—nonsense approach, do you have any sympathy for the jacob rees—mogg school of thought that we have to be very careful about snowflakey. i thinkjacob rees—mogg is a very... thorough gentleman and very wise. totally support anything he said. basically, we are going away from the subject in the sense that a lot of people do not understand it would appear now that the idea of a government is that these are people that have been elected in on the manifesto of what they have promised to do. the civil servants are there to do. the civil servants are there to help them carry out what their

objectives are. over time, a slow creeping, the tail now wags the dog. now they are attacking suella braveman, dominic raab. iam not aware of allegations that have been made. i have only got snippets of alleged leaks, but it is he through a tomato aggressively into a bin, he stared at somebody... these are pathetic things. one of the things. are pathetic things. one of the thins. ., . ., things. pathetic things? someone from the military _ things. pathetic things? someone from the military has _ things. pathetic things? someone from the military has spoken, - things. pathetic things? someone from the military has spoken, i i things. pathetic things? someone i from the military has spoken, i work closely with the military. thea;r closely with the military. they carried out — closely with the military. they carried out orders _ closely with the military. they carried out orders and - closely with the military. they carried out orders and the - closely with the military. “iie: carried out orders and the whole point is, if there is something that is really, really... they are going to shoot that man without any

reason, they carry out the orders and if there is something they will question it and ask why because if you are in a hurry and you need something done, say dominic raab had walked in, asked for papers to be... do a presentation at nine o'clock, it was five to nine, not going to exactly say, pretty please, would you mind? he could appear frustrated which can be seen by many as aggressive. if i have asked you to do this, there is a time, you cannot not have it done... certain ways to do it, but i do think that there has been the threat from some of the civil servants... been the threat from some of the civilservants... i been the threat from some of the civil servants. . ._ civil servants... i get it, we were talkin: civil servants... i get it, we were talking specifically _ civil servants... i get it, we were talking specifically about - civil servants... i get it, we were talking specifically about that - talking specifically about that sector, there is a slightly... could i come sector, there is a slightly... could i come back _ sector, there is a slightly... could i come back on _ sector, there is a slightly... could i come back on that? _ sector, there is a slightly... could i come back on that? working - sector, there is a slightly... could i come back on that? working with the military, as i said in my piece,

there _ the military, as i said in my piece, there is— the military, as i said in my piece, there is a — the military, as i said in my piece, there is a clear line, when there are orders, _ there is a clear line, when there are orders, we do not give orders to shoot _ are orders, we do not give orders to shoot somebody and argue back, i'm someone _ shoot somebody and argue back, i'm someone who has faced combat multiple — someone who has faced combat multiple times, we know what the orders _ multiple times, we know what the orders are, — multiple times, we know what the orders are, rules of engagement in that context. when decisions have been _ that context. when decisions have been made, time and a place because we are _ been made, time and a place because we are empowered to constructively descent— we are empowered to constructively descent as — we are empowered to constructively descent as dulcie highlighted. psychologically safe environment, nikki talked about technical language, be a decent human being. do not _ language, be a decent human being. do not treat— language, be a decent human being. do not treat people with disdain. the aggressive tomato in that then, that is— the aggressive tomato in that then, that is perception, i get that. if dominic— that is perception, i get that. if dominic raab came in and asked me to -ive dominic raab came in and asked me to give a _ dominic raab came in and asked me to give a brief, _ dominic raab came in and asked me to give a brief, i_ dominic raab came in and asked me to give a brief, i would expect a conversation and i would expect someone — conversation and i would expect someone to ask me, why didn't that happen? _ someone to ask me, why didn't that happen? let's go through this. i messed — happen? let's go through this. i messed up, what caused me to mess up? what _ messed up, what caused me to mess up? what can we do again? being snowflakey in my opinion. —— not

being _ snowflakey in my opinion. —— not being snowflakey. snowflakey in my opinion. -- not being snowflakey.— snowflakey in my opinion. -- not being snowflakey. there is a way of sa in: it is being snowflakey. there is a way of saying it is five _ being snowflakey. there is a way of saying it is five to _ being snowflakey. there is a way of saying it is five to nine... _ being snowflakey. there is a way of saying it is five to nine... hang - saying it is five to nine... hang on, i will bring other people in. through this thought in as well. five to nine, need to get the deadline done, there are different ways of saying it, come on, need to get this done. or something more frank and some might say, abusive, others might say. please let me, anne in hunting, i will be back, don't worry. didn't mean to shout, by the way. —— in hampton. sarah newell, john in cambridge. sarah, what to you?— what to you? good morning. i was returnin: what to you? good morning. i was returning to _ what to you? good morning. i was returning to work, _ what to you? good morning. i was returning to work, i _ what to you? good morning. i was returning to work, i had _ what to you? good morning. i was returning to work, i had been - what to you? good morning. i was returning to work, i had been stay| returning to work, i had been stay at home _ returning to work, i had been stay at home mum. _ returning to work, i had been stay at home mum, running _ returning to work, i had been stay at home mum, running my- returning to work, i had been stay at home mum, running my own i at home mum, running my own business. — at home mum, running my own business. went— at home mum, running my own business, went back— at home mum, running my own business, went back to - at home mum, running my own business, went back to a - at home mum, running my own i business, went back to a working academic— business, went back to a working academic environment— business, went back to a working academic environment to - business, went back to a working academic environment to do - business, went back to a working - academic environment to do teaching and i academic environment to do teaching and i was _ academic environment to do teaching and i was mercilessly—

academic environment to do teaching and i was mercilessly bullied - academic environment to do teaching and i was mercilessly bullied by- academic environment to do teaching and i was mercilessly bullied by my. and i was mercilessly bullied by my boss, _ and i was mercilessly bullied by my boss, female — and i was mercilessly bullied by my boss, female boss. _ and i was mercilessly bullied by my boss, female boss. i— and i was mercilessly bullied by my boss, female boss. i suppose - and i was mercilessly bullied by my boss, female boss. i suppose i- and i was mercilessly bullied by my boss, female boss. i suppose i aml boss, female boss. i suppose i am ringing _ boss, female boss. i suppose i am ringing to— boss, female boss. i suppose i am ringing to offer— boss, female boss. i suppose i am ringing to offer a _ boss, female boss. i suppose i am ringing to offer a personal- ringing to offer a personal experience _ ringing to offer a personal experience of— ringing to offer a personal experience of what - ringing to offer a personal experience of what it - ringing to offer a personal experience of what it did i ringing to offer a personal. experience of what it did to a ringing to offer a personal- experience of what it did to a very strong, _ experience of what it did to a very strong, very— experience of what it did to a very strong, very confident _ experience of what it did to a very strong, very confident human - experience of what it did to a very. strong, very confident human being. after a _ strong, very confident human being. after a year— strong, very confident human being. after a year in— strong, very confident human being. after a year in the _ strong, very confident human being. after a year in the environment, - strong, very confident human being. after a year in the environment, i. after a year in the environment, i lost every— after a year in the environment, i lost every ounce _ after a year in the environment, i lost every ounce of _ after a year in the environment, i lost every ounce of confidence . after a year in the environment, i. lost every ounce of confidence which had slowly _ lost every ounce of confidence which had slowly returned _ lost every ounce of confidence which had slowly returned to _ lost every ounce of confidence which had slowly returned to me _ lost every ounce of confidence which had slowly returned to me after- had slowly returned to me after returning — had slowly returned to me after returning to _ had slowly returned to me after returning to an _ had slowly returned to me after returning to an environment - had slowly returned to me after. returning to an environment when had slowly returned to me after- returning to an environment when you have not— returning to an environment when you have not been— returning to an environment when you have not been working _ returning to an environment when you have not been working full—time - returning to an environment when you have not been working full—time for. have not been working full—time for a number— have not been working full—time for a number of— have not been working full—time for a number of years... _ have not been working full—time for a number of years... she _ have not been working full—time for a number of years... she belittled i a number of years... she belittled me in_ a number of years... she belittled me in front — a number of years... she belittled me in front of— a number of years... she belittled me in front of people, _ a number of years... she belittled me in front of people, i— a number of years... she belittled me in front of people, i had - a number of years... she belittled me in front of people, i had to - me in front of people, i had to leave — me in front of people, i had to leave calls _ me in front of people, i had to leave calls and _ me in front of people, i had to leave calls and cry— me in front of people, i had to leave calls and cry and - me in front of people, i had to leave calls and cry and come l me in front of people, i had to i leave calls and cry and come back on, leave calls and cry and come back on. she _ leave calls and cry and come back on. she would _ leave calls and cry and come back on, she would set— leave calls and cry and come back on, she would set me _ leave calls and cry and come back on, she would set me tasks - leave calls and cry and come back on, she would set me tasks and l leave calls and cry and come back. on, she would set me tasks and not tell me _ on, she would set me tasks and not tell me they— on, she would set me tasks and not tell me they were _ on, she would set me tasks and not tell me they were not _ on, she would set me tasks and not tell me they were not needed - on, she would set me tasks and not tell me they were not needed and l tell me they were not needed and when _ tell me they were not needed and when i _ tell me they were not needed and when i presented _ tell me they were not needed and when i presented them, - tell me they were not needed and when i presented them, she - tell me they were not needed and l when i presented them, she would say, i— when i presented them, she would say, i did _ when i presented them, she would say. i did not— when i presented them, she would say, i did not need _ when i presented them, she would say, i did not need that. _ when i presented them, she would say, i did not need that. subtly- say, i did not need that. subtly undermining _ say, i did not need that. subtly undermining. the _ say, i did not need that. subtly undermining. the point- say, i did not need that. subtly undermining. the point i - say, i did not need that. subtlyj undermining. the point i would say, i did not need that. subtly- undermining. the point i would like to make. _ undermining. the point i would like to make. it— undermining. the point i would like to make, it trickled _ undermining. the point i would like to make, it trickled down _ undermining. the point i would like to make, it trickled down into- undermining. the point i would like to make, it trickled down into the l to make, it trickled down into the team _ to make, it trickled down into the team so— to make, it trickled down into the team so people _ to make, it trickled down into the team so people began _ to make, it trickled down into the team so people began to- to make, it trickled down into the i team so people began to undermine each other— team so people began to undermine each other because _ team so people began to undermine each other because this _ team so people began to undermine each other because this is _ team so people began to undermine each other because this is learned . each other because this is learned behaviour— each other because this is learned behaviour from _ each other because this is learned behaviour from leadership. - each other because this is learned behaviour from leadership. whenl each other because this is learned . behaviour from leadership. when you are bullied. _ behaviour from leadership. when you are bullied, when _ behaviour from leadership. when you are bullied, when bullying _ behaviour from leadership. when you are bullied, when bullying occurs- behaviour from leadership. when you are bullied, when bullying occurs at. are bullied, when bullying occurs at the highest — are bullied, when bullying occurs at the highest level, _ are bullied, when bullying occurs at the highest level, it _ are bullied, when bullying occurs at the highest level, it is _ are bullied, when bullying occurs at the highest level, it is accepted - are bullied, when bullying occurs at the highest level, it is accepted at. the highest level, it is accepted at the highest level, it is accepted at the lowest — the highest level, it is accepted at the lowest level— the highest level, it is accepted at the lowest level and _ the highest level, it is accepted at the lowest level and it _ the highest level, it is accepted at the lowest level and it is - the highest level, it is accepted at the lowest level and it is a - the highest level, it is accepted at the lowest level and it is a really. the lowest level and it is a really toxic— the lowest level and it is a really toxic environment _ the lowest level and it is a really toxic environment to _ the lowest level and it is a really toxic environment to work- the lowest level and it is a really toxic environment to work in. i the lowest level and it is a reallyl toxic environment to work in. did ou have toxic environment to work in. did you have a _ toxic environment to work in. you have a similar experience, toxic environment to work in.“ you have a similar experience, anne? like an echo, exactly what happened

to me _ like an echo, exactly what happened to me i_ like an echo, exactly what happened to me. i work for somebody for 17 years. _ to me. i work for somebody for 17 years. senior— to me. i work for somebody for 17 years, senior partner of a company, he was _ years, senior partner of a company, he was and — years, senior partner of a company, he was. and he semi retired and they employed _ he was. and he semi retired and they employed another younger man, i don't _ employed another younger man, i don't know— employed another younger man, i don't know if he was out of his depth, — don't know if he was out of his depth, i— don't know if he was out of his depth, i don't know, but he undermined me at work to such an extent— undermined me at work to such an extent that — undermined me at work to such an extent that i was put... i didn't want _ extent that i was put... i didn't want to— extent that i was put... ididn't want to go— extent that i was put... i didn't want to go into work, i was sitting crying _ want to go into work, i was sitting crying my— want to go into work, i was sitting crying my eyes out. at the end, i had to— crying my eyes out. at the end, i had to take — crying my eyes out. at the end, i had to take prozac to calm me down. my husband — had to take prozac to calm me down. my husband who sadly has died, he phoned _ my husband who sadly has died, he phoned him up and said, how come my wife who— phoned him up and said, how come my wife who used to go into work and thoroughly— wife who used to go into work and thoroughly enjoy work, 17 years, working — thoroughly enjoy work, 17 years, working for this gentleman, now she has worked — working for this gentleman, now she has worked for you for six months and she _ has worked for you for six months and she is— has worked for you for six months and she is sitting crying her eyes out at _ and she is sitting crying her eyes out at home, why are you being like that to _ out at home, why are you being like that to her? — out at home, why are you being like that to her? he undermined me to such an _ that to her? he undermined me to such an extent i thought i could not

do my— such an extent i thought i could not do my work — such an extent i thought i could not do my work. i am an experienced legal— do my work. i am an experienced legal secretary of about 40 years. it legal secretary of about 40 years. it got _ legal secretary of about 40 years. it got to _ legal secretary of about 40 years. it got to a — legal secretary of about 40 years. it got to a point and i said to my ex-boss. — it got to a point and i said to my ex—boss, how come i worked for you for all— ex—boss, how come i worked for you for all these — ex—boss, how come i worked for you for all these years i was useless? he said. — for all these years i was useless? he said. of— for all these years i was useless? he said, of course you were not useless, — he said, of course you were not useless, i— he said, of course you were not useless, i am a senior partner, which _ useless, i am a senior partner, which i — useless, i am a senior partner, which i have _ useless, i am a senior partner, which i have put up with a secretary who was _ which i have put up with a secretary who was useless? but i could not go into work— who was useless? but i could not go into work every day. at the end of it, i into work every day. at the end of it. i had _ into work every day. at the end of it. i had to — into work every day. at the end of it, i had to leave and i did leave. i it, i had to leave and i did leave. i left _ it, i had to leave and i did leave. i left the — it, i had to leave and i did leave. i left the job because either that or i i left the job because either that or i don't— i left the job because either that or i don't know what would have happened — or i don't know what would have happened to me. i took lower paid 'ob happened to me. i took lower paid job and _ happened to me. i took lower paid job and lower position job just to -et job and lower position job just to get away— job and lower position job just to get away from him. not job and lower position 'ob 'ust to get away from himb job and lower position 'ob 'ust to get away from him. not wanting to... actually not — get away from him. not wanting to... actually not wanting _ get away from him. not wanting to... actually not wanting to _ get away from him. not wanting to... actually not wanting to go _ get away from him. not wanting to... actually not wanting to go into - actually not wanting to go into work. sarah, what were the sort of things specifically your female boss said to you? give us an idea. i will

rive ou said to you? give us an idea. i will give you a — said to you? give us an idea. i will give you a few _ said to you? give us an idea. i will give you a few examples. - said to you? give us an idea. i will give you a few examples. if - said to you? give us an idea. ii-n' ii. give you a few examples. if we said to you? give us an idea. in ii. give you a few examples. if we would be on a collaborative call, i would make a point and that point would be dismissed and someone would make an almost identical point that would be welcomed and told it was a good idea. initially i thought i was imagining itand i met with idea. initially i thought i was imagining it and i met with the group i work closely with and said, am i being oversensitive? returning to workplace, is this how things are now? a couple of the team i work with sed, no, we can see what happening. sending me away to work on something that i presented as a goodidea on something that i presented as a good idea and coming back... not coming back to me, following up on this, when would do like the outcome? we have decided we cannot do that. making me... feeli outcome? we have decided we cannot do that. making me... feel i have done hours of extra work on this. deliberately trying to into my me with the intermediary boss, saying i was not doing myjob properly when i

was not doing myjob properly when i was getting glowing feedback from the people i was doing the job for. at the end of the year, the opportunity came to renew the contract and i walked away and now i work in the voluntary sector. i cannot put myself through this. they totally destroyed my confidence anyone who is a woman of a certain age returning to the workplace and wanting to give something back, to be treated like that, so debilitating because it takes a lot to return and get your confidence back and to have it undermined a second time by a woman, its target me, i could not believe it. it made me, i could not believe it. it made me feel really sad that people who did walk away from similar experiences —— it staggered me. i felt angry because i felt i should have been brave enough to speak up but ijust left. when i spoke to colleagues after, i found but ijust left. when i spoke to colleagues after, ifound out but ijust left. when i spoke to colleagues after, i found out it was happening to other people. i was cross with myself.—

happening to other people. i was cross with myself. yeah, tina, this is unacceptable. _ cross with myself. yeah, tina, this is unacceptable. i— cross with myself. yeah, tina, this is unacceptable. i know _ cross with myself. yeah, tina, this is unacceptable. i know you - cross with myself. yeah, tina, this is unacceptable. i know you are - is unacceptable. i know you are addressing the culture of whitehall and people not being up to the mark, but taking it away from that and some might say, we don't know what will happen with dominic raab, what decision rishi sunak will come to, as soon as we know, we will tell you. you have to look at the wake of accusations. 24 civil servants alleged bullying. —— the weight of accusations. what we heard there from sarah and anne, utterly unacceptable. tina, are you there? sorry, i thought you were talking to someone _ sorry, i thought you were talking to someone else _ sorry, i thought you were talking to someone else. horror— sorry, i thought you were talking to someone else. horror stories- sorry, i thought you were talking to someone else. horror stories and l someone else. horror stories and that ism — someone else. horror stories and that ism i— someone else. horror stories and that ism iam _ someone else. horror stories and that is... i am surprised - someone else. horror stories and that is... i am surprised listening| that is... i am surprised listening to them — that is... i am surprised listening to them i— that is... i am surprised listening to them i am _ that is... i am surprised listening to them. i am quite _ that is... i am surprised listening to them. i am quite a _ that is... i am surprised listening to them. i am quite a strict - that is... i am surprised listening to them. i am quite a strict boss. that is... i am surprised listening. to them. i am quite a strict boss. i expect— to them. i am quite a strict boss. i expect a _ to them. i am quite a strict boss. i expect a day's— to them. i am quite a strict boss. i

expect a day's work— to them. i am quite a strict boss. i expect a day's work for— to them. i am quite a strict boss. i expect a day's work for a - to them. i am quite a strict boss. i expect a day's work for a day's - to them. i am quite a strict boss. ll expect a day's work for a day's pay. it is expect a day's work for a day's pay. it is a _ expect a day's work for a day's pay. it is a two-way— expect a day's work for a day's pay. it is a two—way thing _ expect a day's work for a day's pay. it is a two—way thing and _ expect a day's work for a day's pay. it is a two—way thing and normally. it is a two—way thing and normally when _ it is a two—way thing and normally when someone _ it is a two—way thing and normally when someone new— it is a two—way thing and normally when someone new enters - it is a two—way thing and normally when someone new enters the - it is a two—way thing and normally - when someone new enters the company, most say, _ when someone new enters the company, most say, her— when someone new enters the company, most say, her bark— when someone new enters the company, most say, her bark is— when someone new enters the company, most say, her bark is worse _ when someone new enters the company, most say, her bark is worse than - when someone new enters the company, most say, her bark is worse than her- most say, her bark is worse than her bite _ most say, her bark is worse than her bite it _ most say, her bark is worse than her bite it depends— most say, her bark is worse than her bite. it depends on— most say, her bark is worse than her bite. it depends on the _ bite. it depends on the circumstances. - bite. it depends on the circumstances. if- bite. it depends on the - circumstances. if someone is deliberately— circumstances. if someone is deliberately picking - circumstances. if someone is deliberately picking on - circumstances. if someone is deliberately picking on one . circumstances. if someone is - deliberately picking on one person, that is— deliberately picking on one person, that is real— deliberately picking on one person, that is real bullying. _ deliberately picking on one person, that is real bullying. if— deliberately picking on one person, that is real bullying. if they- deliberately picking on one person, that is real bullying. if they are - that is real bullying. if they are general— that is real bullying. if they are general -- _ that is real bullying. if they are general -- if— that is real bullying. if they are general —— if their— that is real bullying. if they are general —— if their general- that is real bullying. if they are . general —— if their general attitude is across— general —— if their general attitude is across the — general —— if their general attitude is across the board, _ general —— if their general attitude is across the board, the _ general —— if their general attitude is across the board, the way - general —— if their general attitude is across the board, the way they. is across the board, the way they are, _ is across the board, the way they are, if— is across the board, the way they are, if it — is across the board, the way they are, if it is — is across the board, the way they are, if it is offending _ is across the board, the way they are, if it is offending people, - is across the board, the way they are, if it is offending people, you sit down — are, if it is offending people, you sit down and _ are, if it is offending people, you sit down and discuss _ are, if it is offending people, you sit down and discuss it. - are, if it is offending people, you sit down and discuss it. i- are, if it is offending people, you sit down and discuss it. i had - are, if it is offending people, youj sit down and discuss it. i had one member— sit down and discuss it. i had one member of— sit down and discuss it. i had one member of staff— sit down and discuss it. i had one member of staff say, _ sit down and discuss it. i had one member of staff say, sometimesj sit down and discuss it. i had one i member of staff say, sometimes we don't _ member of staff say, sometimes we don't like _ member of staff say, sometimes we don't like the — member of staff say, sometimes we don't like the boss _ member of staff say, sometimes we don't like the boss but _ member of staff say, sometimes we don't like the boss but we _ member of staff say, sometimes we don't like the boss but we respect. don't like the boss but we respect you _ don't like the boss but we respect you that — don't like the boss but we respect you that is— don't like the boss but we respect you. that is fine _ don't like the boss but we respect you. that is fine by— don't like the boss but we respect you. that is fine by me, _ don't like the boss but we respect you. that is fine by me, as- don't like the boss but we respect you. that is fine by me, as long . don't like the boss but we respectl you. that is fine by me, as long as they— you. that is fine by me, as long as they respect — you. that is fine by me, as long as they respect me. _ you. that is fine by me, as long as they respect me, i— you. that is fine by me, as long as they respect me, i don't _ you. that is fine by me, as long as they respect me, i don't expect. you. that is fine by me, as long as. they respect me, i don't expect them to love _ they respect me, i don't expect them to love me _ they respect me, i don't expect them to love me. respect— they respect me, i don't expect them to love me. respect is— they respect me, i don't expect them to love me. respect is good. - to love me. respect is good. somebody— to love me. respect is good. somebody said _ to love me. respect is good. somebody said earlier, - to love me. respect is good. somebody said earlier, you i somebody said earlier, you discussm _ somebody said earlier, you discussm if— somebody said earlier, you discuss... if i _ somebody said earlier, you discuss... if i ask— somebody said earlier, you discuss... if i ask you - somebody said earlier, you discuss... if i ask you to. somebody said earlier, you discuss... if i ask you to doj discuss... if i ask you to do something. _ discuss... if i ask you to do something, just _ discuss... if i ask you to do something, just do - discuss... if i ask you to do something, just do it. - discuss... if i ask you to do. something, just do it. because discuss... if i ask you to do- something, just do it. because if it is wrong, _ something, just do it. because if it is wrong, you — something, just do it. because if it is wrong, you cannot _ something, just do it. because if it is wrong, you cannot be _ something, just do it. because if it is wrong, you cannot be blamed i is wrong, you cannot be blamed because — is wrong, you cannot be blamed because it — is wrong, you cannot be blamed because it is _ is wrong, you cannot be blamed because it is my— is wrong, you cannot be blamed because it is my fault— is wrong, you cannot be blamed because it is my fault because l is wrong, you cannot be blamed because it is my fault because i| because it is my fault because i asked _ because it is my fault because i asked you — because it is my fault because i asked you to— because it is my fault because i asked you to do _ because it is my fault because i asked you to do it. _ because it is my fault because i asked you to do it. if— because it is my fault because i asked you to do it. if i - because it is my fault because i asked you to do it. if i ask- because it is my fault because i asked you to do it. if i ask you i because it is my fault because i. asked you to do it. if i ask you to do something _ asked you to do it. if i ask you to do something and _ asked you to do it. if i ask you to do something and you _ asked you to do it. if i ask you to

do something and you don't - do something and you don't understand, _ do something and you don't understand, do— do something and you don't understand, do it, - do something and you don't understand, do it, come - do something and you don't understand, do it, come toi do something and you don't - understand, do it, come to me, do something and you don't _ understand, do it, come to me, asked me to _ understand, do it, come to me, asked me to explain — understand, do it, come to me, asked me to explain why— understand, do it, come to me, asked me to explain why i_ understand, do it, come to me, asked me to explain why i asked _ understand, do it, come to me, asked me to explain why i asked you - understand, do it, come to me, asked me to explain why i asked you to - understand, do it, come to me, asked me to explain why i asked you to do . me to explain why i asked you to do that when— me to explain why i asked you to do that when you — me to explain why i asked you to do that when you thought _ me to explain why i asked you to do that when you thought x, _ me to explain why i asked you to do that when you thought x, y, - me to explain why i asked you to do that when you thought x, y, z. - me to explain why i asked you to do that when you thought x, y, 2. that is the _ that when you thought x, y, 2. that is the way— that when you thought x, y, 2. that is the way it— that when you thought x, y, 2. that is the way it should _ that when you thought x, y, 2. that is the way it should be, _ that when you thought x, y, 2. that is the way it should be, do - that when you thought x, y, 2. that is the way it should be, do what - that when you thought x, y, 2. that is the way it should be, do what the j is the way it should be, do what the boss says _ is the way it should be, do what the boss says is— is the way it should be, do what the boss says is the _ is the way it should be, do what the boss says is the safest _ is the way it should be, do what the boss says is the safest thing - is the way it should be, do what the boss says is the safest thing in - is the way it should be, do what the boss says is the safest thing in the. boss says is the safest thing in the world _ boss says is the safest thing in the world and — boss says is the safest thing in the world and if— boss says is the safest thing in the world and if it _ boss says is the safest thing in the world and if it is _ boss says is the safest thing in the world and if it is wrong _ boss says is the safest thing in the world and if it is wrong or- boss says is the safest thing in the world and if it is wrong or you - boss says is the safest thing in the world and if it is wrong or you arel world and if it is wrong or you are not happy, — world and if it is wrong or you are not happy, you — world and if it is wrong or you are not happy, you can _ world and if it is wrong or you are not happy, you can go _ world and if it is wrong or you are not happy, you can go in - world and if it is wrong or you are not happy, you can go in after- world and if it is wrong or you arei not happy, you can go in after and say, _ not happy, you can go in after and say, could — not happy, you can go in after and say, could i— not happy, you can go in after and say, could i discuss— not happy, you can go in after and say, could i discuss this _ not happy, you can go in after and say, could i discuss this with - not happy, you can go in after and say, could i discuss this with you? because _ say, could i discuss this with you? because the — say, could i discuss this with you? because the boss _ say, could i discuss this with you? because the boss is— say, could i discuss this with you? because the boss is often - say, could i discuss this with you? because the boss is often looking | say, could i discuss this with you? l because the boss is often looking at the big _ because the boss is often looking at the big picture. _ because the boss is often looking at the big picture, the _ because the boss is often looking at the big picture, the whole _ because the boss is often looking at the big picture, the whole picture, l the big picture, the whole picture, with lots— the big picture, the whole picture, with lots of— the big picture, the whole picture, with lots of octopus _ the big picture, the whole picture, with lots of octopus lag _ the big picture, the whole picture, with lots of octopus lag is - the big picture, the whole picture, with lots of octopus lag is going i the big picture, the whole picture,| with lots of octopus lag is going on and you _ with lots of octopus lag is going on and you are — with lots of octopus lag is going on and you are yelling _ with lots of octopus lag is going on and you are yelling to _ with lots of octopus lag is going on and you are yelling to each - with lots of octopus lag is going on| and you are yelling to each octopus la n and you are yelling to each octopus leg what _ and you are yelling to each octopus leg what to — and you are yelling to each octopus leg what to do _ and you are yelling to each octopus leg what to do and _ and you are yelling to each octopus leg what to do and finally— and you are yelling to each octopus leg what to do and finally it - and you are yelling to each octopus leg what to do and finally it all - leg what to do and finally it all comes— leg what to do and finally it all comes together. _ leg what to do and finally it all comes together. if _ leg what to do and finally it all comes together. if it - leg what to do and finally it all comes together. if it is - leg what to do and finally it all comes together. if it is one i leg what to do and finally it all - comes together. if it is one octopus does _ comes together. if it is one octopus does not _ comes together. if it is one octopus does not understand _ comes together. if it is one octopus does not understand why, - comes together. if it is one octopus does not understand why, when - comes together. if it is one octopus| does not understand why, when you explain _ does not understand why, when you explain the — does not understand why, when you explain the whole _ does not understand why, when you explain the whole thing... _ does not understand why, when you explain the whole thing... that - does not understand why, when you explain the whole thing... that is i explain the whole thing... that is why i_ explain the whole thing... that is why i think— explain the whole thing... that is why i think people _ explain the whole thing... that is why i think people don't- why i think people don't understand... _ why i think people don't understand. . ._ why i think people don't understand... . understand... have you ever shouted at anyone? — understand... have you ever shouted at anyone? yes. _ understand. .. have you ever shouted at anyone? yes, of— understand... have you ever shouted at anyone? yes, of course _ understand. .. have you ever shouted at anyone? yes, of course i - understand... have you ever shouted at anyone? yes, of course i have - at anyone? yes, of course i have shouted at _ at anyone? yes, of course i have shouted at people. _ at anyone? yes, of course i have shouted at people. if— at anyone? yes, of course i have shouted at people. if it - at anyone? yes, of course i have shouted at people. if it has - at anyone? yes, of course i have shouted at people. if it has been j shouted at people. if it has been unreasonable, _ shouted at people. if it has been unreasonable, i— shouted at people. if it has been unreasonable, i have _ shouted at people. if it has beenl unreasonable, i have apologised. normally— unreasonable, i have apologised. normally if— unreasonable, i have apologised. normally if i_ unreasonable, i have apologised. normally if i have _ unreasonable, i have apologised. normally if i have shouted, - unreasonable, i have apologised. normally if i have shouted, it - unreasonable, i have apologised. normally if i have shouted, it is. normally if i have shouted, it is because — normally if i have shouted, it is because i— normally if i have shouted, it is because i am _ normally if i have shouted, it is because i am frustrated. -

normally if i have shouted, it is because i am frustrated. if- normally if i have shouted, it is because i am frustrated. if i - normally if i have shouted, it is. because i am frustrated. if i have shouted — because i am frustrated. if i have shouted at — because i am frustrated. if i have shouted at them. _ because i am frustrated. if i have shouted at them. the, _ because i am frustrated. if i have shouted at them. the, they - because i am frustrated. if i have| shouted at them. the, they come because i am frustrated. if i have - shouted at them. the, they come in, they apologise — shouted at them. the, they come in, they apologise it— shouted at them. the, they come in, they apologise. it happens. - shouted at them. the, they come in, they apologise. it happens. i- shouted at them. the, they come in, they apologise. it happens. i was - they apologise. it happens. i was rushingm — they apologise. it happens. i was rushingm hig— they apologise. it happens. i was rushinu... y they apologise. it happens. i was rushinu... g they apologise. it happens. i was rushing---— rushing... my boss i was talking about earlier _ rushing... my boss i was talking about earlier on, _ rushing... my boss i was talking about earlier on, brilliant - rushing... my boss i was talking about earlier on, brilliant boss l rushing... my boss i was talking i about earlier on, brilliant boss and if you did stuff wrong, he got you in the office, talked about your strong points, said, that is something... nevershouted. iworked for him for years. it something. .. never shouted. i worked for him for years.— for him for years. it depends on the situation. for him for years. it depends on the situation- as _ for him for years. it depends on the situation. as i _ for him for years. it depends on the situation. as i explained, _ for him for years. it depends on the situation. as i explained, if- for him for years. it depends on the situation. as i explained, if i - for him for years. it depends on the situation. as i explained, ifi do, i situation. as i explained, if i do, i situation. as i explained, if i do, i explain — situation. as i explained, if i do, i explain why _ situation. as i explained, if i do, i explain why. the _ situation. as i explained, if i do, i explain why. the other- situation. as i explained, if i do, i explain why. the other thing i situation. as i explained, if i do, | i explain why. the other thing is, situation. as i explained, if i do, i i explain why. the other thing is, i make _ i explain why. the other thing is, i make decisions— i explain why. the other thing is, i make decisions and _ i explain why. the other thing is, i make decisions and believe - i explain why. the other thing is, i make decisions and believe it - i explain why. the other thing is, i make decisions and believe it or. i explain why. the other thing is, i. make decisions and believe it or not i do make decisions and believe it or not i do not _ make decisions and believe it or not i do not get — make decisions and believe it or not i do not get them _ make decisions and believe it or not i do not get them all— make decisions and believe it or not i do not get them all 100% - make decisions and believe it or not i do not get them all 100% right- make decisions and believe it or notj i do not get them all 100% right and if i i do not get them all 100% right and if i am _ i do not get them all 100% right and if i am wrong, — i do not get them all 100% right and if i am wrong, i_ i do not get them all 100% right and if i am wrong, i am _ i do not get them all 100% right and if i am wrong, i am happy— i do not get them all 100% right and if i am wrong, i am happy to- i do not get them all 100% right and if i am wrong, i am happy to turn. if i am wrong, i am happy to turn around— if i am wrong, i am happy to turn around and— if i am wrong, i am happy to turn around and say, _ if i am wrong, i am happy to turn around and say, i— if i am wrong, i am happy to turn around and say, i screwed - if i am wrong, i am happy to turn around and say, i screwed up, i if i am wrong, i am happy to turn- around and say, i screwed up, gang, really— around and say, i screwed up, gang, really sorry — around and say, i screwed up, gang, really sorry. smack— around and say, i screwed up, gang, really sorry. smack my _ around and say, i screwed up, gang, really sorry. smack my wrists. - around and say, i screwed up, gang, really sorry. smack my wrists. we i really sorry. smack my wrists. we love _ really sorry. smack my wrists. we love you — really sorry. smack my wrists. we love you get _ really sorry. smack my wrists. we love you get a _ really sorry. smack my wrists. we love. you get a good _ really sorry. smack my wrists. we love. you get a good relationship. if love. you get a good relationship. if you _ love. you get a good relationship. if you have — love. you get a good relationship. if you have a — love. you get a good relationship. if you have a brilliant _ if you have a brilliant relationship, - if you have a brilliant relationship, that. if you have a brilliant relationship, that is. if you have a brilliant - relationship, that is fine. one if you have a brilliant _ relationship, that is fine. one day there _ relationship, that is fine. one day there was— relationship, that is fine. one day there was a — relationship, that is fine. one day there was a girl— relationship, that is fine. one day there was a girl in— relationship, that is fine. one day

there was a girl in the _ relationship, that is fine. one day there was a girl in the toilet - relationship, that is fine. one dayj there was a girl in the toilet doing there was a girl in the toilet doing the crying — there was a girl in the toilet doing the crying thing _ there was a girl in the toilet doing the crying thing and _ there was a girl in the toilet doing the crying thing and i— there was a girl in the toilet doing the crying thing and i was - there was a girl in the toilet doing the crying thing and i was rushing| the crying thing and i was rushing offm _ the crying thing and i was rushing off... . , the crying thing and i was rushing | off- - -— hang off... doing the crying thing. hang on. she off... doing the crying thing. hang on- she was _ off... doing the crying thing. hang on. she was crying. _ off. .. doing the crying thing. hang on. she was crying. i— off... doing the crying thing. hang on. she was crying. i was - off... doing the crying thing. hang on. she was crying. i was rushing| on. she was crying. i was rushing off and _ on. she was crying. i was rushing off and i— on. she was crying. i was rushing off and i called _ on. she was crying. i was rushing off and i called my— on. she was crying. i was rushing off and i called my secretary - on. she was crying. i was rushing off and i called my secretary and | on. she was crying. i was rushing| off and i called my secretary and i said. _ off and i called my secretary and i said. what— off and i called my secretary and i said. what was— off and i called my secretary and i said, what was the _ off and i called my secretary and i said, what was the matter? - off and i called my secretary and i said, what was the matter? she l off and i called my secretary and i- said, what was the matter? she said, you did _ said, what was the matter? she said, you did not _ said, what was the matter? she said, you did not say— said, what was the matter? she said, you did not say good _ said, what was the matter? she said, you did not say good morning - said, what was the matter? she said, you did not say good morning when. you did not say good morning when you did not say good morning when you came _ you did not say good morning when you came in — you did not say good morning when you came in i_ you did not say good morning when you came in. i looked _ you did not say good morning when you came in. i looked aghast. - you did not say good morning when you came in. i looked aghast. i- you did not say good morning when you came in. i looked aghast. i hadj you came in. i looked aghast. i had to swallow — you came in. i looked aghast. i had to swallow we _ you came in. i looked aghast. i had to swallow. we both _ you came in. i looked aghast. i had to swallow. we both laughed. - you came in. i looked aghast. i had to swallow. we both laughed. i- you came in. i looked aghast. i had to swallow. we both laughed. i am| to swallow. we both laughed. i am terribly— to swallow. we both laughed. i am terribly sorry~ _ to swallow. we both laughed. i am terribly sorry i_ to swallow. we both laughed. i am terribly sorry. i am _ to swallow. we both laughed. i am terribly sorry. i am in _ to swallow. we both laughed. i am terribly sorry. i am in a _ to swallow. we both laughed. i am terribly sorry. i am in a hurry. - terribly sorry. i am in a hurry. don't — terribly sorry. i am in a hurry. don't take _ terribly sorry. i am in a hurry. don't take any— terribly sorry. i am in a hurry. don't take any notice, - terribly sorry. i am in a hurry. don't take any notice, i- terribly sorry. i am in a hurry. don't take any notice, i am i terribly sorry. i am in a hurry. i don't take any notice, i am like that— don't take any notice, i am like that with — don't take any notice, i am like that with everybody. _ don't take any notice, i am like that with everybody. she - don't take any notice, i am like that with everybody. she said, i don't take any notice, i am like| that with everybody. she said, i thought — that with everybody. she said, i thought i— that with everybody. she said, i thought i had _ that with everybody. she said, i thought i had done _ that with everybody. she said, i thought i had done something i that with everybody. she said, i- thought i had done something wrong. personally. _ thought i had done something wrong. personally. i— thought i had done something wrong. personally, i thought, _ thought i had done something wrong. personally, ithought, really? - thought i had done something wrong. personally, ithought, really? got- personally, ithought, really? got ou. i personally, ithought, really? got you- i said — personally, ithought, really? got you. i said sorry. _ personally, ithought, really? got you. i said sorry. interesting - you. isaid sorry. interesting hrase. you. isaid sorry. interesting phrase- 0k- _ you. isaid sorry. interesting phrase. ok. doing _ you. isaid sorry. interesting phrase. ok. doing the - you. isaid sorry. interesting| phrase. ok. doing the crying you. i said sorry. interesting - phrase. ok. doing the crying thing. claire in southampton, _ phrase. ok. doing the crying thing. claire in southampton, emily - phrase. ok. doing the crying thing. claire in southampton, emily in - claire in southampton, emily in stourbridge on thejohn, i will be with you. hello, claire? good morning to you. what is a workplace

bully. what is your experience? prior to the last year where i am now self—employed, i worked in the nhs for seven years. basically, near enough, every department i worked on, i think six in total, always been some sort of bully in the department, some have been worse than others. sadly my first everjob post graduating was working in a department where i experienced the worst form of bullying in the nhs. at the time, i was working on bank which was basically zero—hours contract. i was heavily reliant on my income. it meant that any interaction negatively could have got me the sack on the spot which resulted in my reaction at the time to what happened to me being quite sad, really, ithink. but what

happened was, i was in a department, i sent an e—mail, standard e—mail, the manager did not like my reply and came in and started finger pointing and shouting at me over my desk in front of my other colleagues, very aggressive, disgusting behaviour. i don't know what he was thinking. the only way i could react to this was to literally crouch down on my knees in front of my desk because if i had an impulse reaction, i would my desk because if i had an impulse reaction, iwould have my desk because if i had an impulse reaction, i would have lost myjob. he would have taken great gratification in doing that. i would have lost everything. my house, everything, through lack of income. awful. i everything, through lack of income. awful. . ., . everything, through lack of income. awful. . ., . ., ., ., ., awful. i crouch down and waited for it to be over— awful. i crouch down and waited for it to be over and _ awful. i crouch down and waited for it to be over and i _ awful. i crouch down and waited for it to be over and i did _ awful. i crouch down and waited for it to be over and i did take - awful. i crouch down and waited for it to be over and i did take it - it to be over and i did take it through disciplinary procedures. flan through disciplinary procedures. can i ask ou through disciplinary procedures. can i ask you something? yeah. - through disciplinary procedures. can i ask you something? yeah. what i through disciplinary procedures. can | i ask you something? yeah. what did our i ask you something? yeah. what did your colleagues _ i ask you something? yeah. what did your colleagues do _ i ask you something? yeah. what did your colleagues do who _ i ask you something? .e:—.i what did your colleagues do who witnessed i ask you something? .22i what did your colleagues do who witnessed it? what did they say at the time?

i remember looking around the room and theirfaces werejust i remember looking around the room and their faces were just sheer, like, what the health is going on here? hejust came in like, what the health is going on here? he just came in and like, what the health is going on here? hejust came in and started on me. there was no description about what i was on about. did me. there was no description about what i was on about.— what i was on about. did no one stand u- what i was on about. did no one stand up and — what i was on about. did no one stand up and say, _ what i was on about. did no one stand up and say, don't - what i was on about. did no one stand up and say, don't speak i what i was on about. did no one | stand up and say, don't speak to what i was on about. did no one - stand up and say, don't speak to her like that? ., , , , , like that? no, because everybody else is in fear _ like that? no, because everybody else is in fear of— like that? no, because everybody else is in fear of their _ like that? no, because everybody else is in fear of theirjobs. - like that? no, because everybody else is in fear of theirjobs. this i else is in fear of theirjobs. this is something that is very, you wouldn't believe it to hear these stories unless somebody comes out with them. no one said anything just through fear, that they would lose their jobs as well. through fear, that they would lose theirjobs as well. a lot of them were on the bank as well, in the same situation as me and retaliation would be fired or laid off. obviously, the minute he left the

room i burst into tears and was just in total shock. all my colleagues came up to me and were like consoling me and saying, you've got to do something about this. i did and it took a lot of energy out of me. really ran my confidence into the ground. i managed to go to disciplinary procedures. through the procedure i didn't realise he couldn't read or write. the only thing i got was an apology letter which was written by someone else, another member of management. he just signed it on the bottom and thatis just signed it on the bottom and that is all i got. that took months just to get to that point. it was overfor me, every just to get to that point. it was over for me, every time just to get to that point. it was overfor me, every time i saw him in the corridor, even when i had left

that hospital, if than if i saw him around the local town it was a horrible flashback reminder and it was disgusting thing that happened to me. this is my first everjob as well, my first full—time job. i graduated, well, my first full—timejob. i graduated, i well, my first full—time job. i graduated, i need well, my first full—timejob. i graduated, i need money and well, my first full—time job. i graduated, i need money and this was it, is this what i've got to come? an awful, awful experience and terrible memory. thank you so much. let me give you a couple of texts. then we will have the news. i've been bullied through school and work on feel weak if i stand up for myself i am accused of being difficult. another one, i'd like to stay anonymous. i work for a large building society a manager really bullied me. her record had three grievances on past employees and a whistle—blowing. i was a payroll

manager there and she asked me in my first week to manage out to asian ladies as she like to be... she managed me out. there were a lot of cliques in hr and other departments so like previous grievances, she won. a point a lot of people are making, i briefly mentioned it, some tv programmes have glorified workplace bullying, gordon ramsay for example, the glorification of alex ferguson and his hairdryer, they should be mutual respect in the workplace. that is from ruth in belfast. and the alan sugar situation of course,. who would behave like that in the boardroom? apparently, some people. it is nine 30 3am.

good money, here is the news. colleagues of the prime minister say it's "fair" that he takes his time to decide whether to sack his deputy, dominic raab. rishi sunak was given the results of a five—month investigation into bullying allegations against mr raab yesterday morning, which he denies. a prompt response from downing street had been expected. the schools watchdog in england ofsted says it will make changes to the way inspections are carried out following the death of a head teacher. ruth perry took her own life while waiting for the publication of an ofsted report which was downgrading her school to inadequate. despite calls to abandon them the body says it's keeping the single—word overall grade for schools. fighting is continuing in the capital of sudan khartoum despite growing diplomatic pressure for a three—day ceasefire which the paramilitary group,

rapid support forces, had agreed to, something the army hasn't commented on. 300 people have died in a week of violence in the country. retail sales were lower than expected last month. wet weather is being blamed for that with footfall down in department stores, clothes shops and garden centres. the office for national statistics says uk sales dropped by 0.9%. with the sport, here's mike mccarthy. tottenham's managing director fabio paratici has resigned after losing his appeal against a 30—month ban from certain football related activities. spurs say he's leaving to focus on his legal position. paratici has always denied doing anything wrong when he was a director atjuventus. manchester united boss erik ten hag says his players let themselves and the fans down in thier europa league exit to sevilla. united lost 3—0 in spain, going out 5—2 on aggregate. but west ham fans are dreaming of a first trophy in more than 40 years. a semi—final in the europa conference league against az alkmaar awaits after a 5—2

aggregate win over gent. the second round at snooker�*s world championship sees defending champion ronnie o'sullivan face a man who says god has given him the chance of revenge. he meets iran's hossein vafaei this afternoon. it's live on bbc two and the iplayer. and britain's eilish mccolgan is a doubt for sunday's london marathon due to "niggle" in her knee. the 32—year—old has withdrawn from a media event scheduled for this morning.

we are going to carry on our conversation, fascinating so far, candid contributions. we are going to carry the conversation until ten o'clock and then your questions for our top road cop. it is your chance to put your questions to the country's top police officer for our roads. i'm already thinking speed limits, speed bumps, mobile phones. very pleased to say i will be joined byjo shiner. you can ask her anything about herjob about our roads, road safety, speed cameras, smart motorways, road hogs. fast lanes, middle lanes! e scooters... oh, my goodness, what a list. you choose, you ask. it is as long as the mi. choose, you ask. it is as long as the mi. get in touch now.

let's talk about this specific report that we are waiting for into the allegations of bullying against the allegations of bullying against the deputy prime minister, dominic raab. more on your own experiences coming up. let's get an update wear out we out from our political correspondent. hi. it was in a nutshell, take it from the top if you like, what are the accusations? morning. the accusations are dominic raab bullied staff in three separate departments that he has worked in over the course of the last few years including the ministry of justice where he currently is the secretary of state. this employment

qc has been investigating eight formal complaints from those three departments, many more, we think around two dozen witnesses have been giving evidence to his investigation over the course of four months. he has interviewed dominic raab, senior civil servants and he has presented the facts as he sees them having interviewed lots of witnesses in his report to the prime minister. that is why this is potentially a very complicated decision for rishi sunak. this isn't a case of asking his adviser on ministerial standards to make a judgment about weather or not code of conduct at the government minister behaviour has been broken or not. pretty soon it has been given this report and the contents of which we do not know, he is having to decide himself what the picture reveals and does it

constitute bullying, doesn't require dominic raab to lose hisjob? the prime minister has been looking through this report, chewing it over for around 24 hours and so far we haven't heard a peep from number 10. we haven't heard anything from dominic raab. before this report was finished and given to number 10, dominic raab was clear if itjudged he had bullied staff he would resign. dominic raab has read this report so clearly he doesn't feel there is a reach that conclusion but we don't know what it says. ok. there is a reach that conclusion but we don't know what it says.- we don't know what it says. ok, so we don't know what it says. ok, so we miaht we don't know what it says. ok, so we might infer— we don't know what it says. ok, so we might infer that _ we don't know what it says. ok, so we might infer that the _ we don't know what it says. ok, soj we might infer that the conclusions are not clear—cut. that is probably right. if it is a clear condemnation of dominic raab or a clear exoneration we may have heard something yesterday. there was a widespread feeling in westminster, certainly in the afternoon, word from number 10 was imminent, the prime minister wanted to make a swift decision about this and not

let it linger into today. but we haven't, which suggests to me this is perhaps a more complicated reports, a more nuanced report than perhaps even the prime minister dominic raab was expecting. thank ou ve dominic raab was expecting. thank you very much _ dominic raab was expecting. thank you very much indeed. _ dominic raab was expecting. thank you very much indeed. some - dominic raab was expecting. thank you very much indeed. some might say this is a very difficult decision for the prime minister, we shall see. dulcie swanston is still with us. emily in stourbridge coming up, thanks for waiting, i wanted to come to you before the news but we had such a fascinating moving contribution. you are here now. sandy in banbury and anthony in manchester. i wanted to ask you, dulcie swanston, and are based on the text i read thatjust before the news, the glorification of it in some television programmes and anybody thought, alex ferguson in the dressing room, he was a brilliant manager and motivator that

it is often spoken about, the hairdryer treatment. maybe sport is a different context. sir alan sugar and gordon ramsay, do you have thought that on the one hand we condemn it and on the other we glorify it? my condemn it and on the other we alori it? y , ., condemn it and on the other we alori it? ., ., , glorify it? my personal thoughts would be, doesn't _ glorify it? my personal thoughts would be, doesn't make, - glorify it? my personal thoughts would be, doesn't make, it - glorify it? my personal thoughts would be, doesn't make, itjust| would be, doesn't make, itjust makes good television. ijust don't see how a modern leader can behave like that i think it is ok. i think mostly when you watch shows like that, if you were in an organisation where there is good leaders you look at it and say, that is a bit weird, that must be the tally. when i was in my late 20s, i went into gordon ramsay's kitchen and it wasn't like it was on the television, you could have heard the pin drop. i think they were dialling it up for the television. but i don't think that

is helpful for all of the reasons you covid which is, people will think that is normal, people will think that is normal, people will think that is ok.— think that is normal, people will think that is ok. they don't take any nonsense — think that is ok. they don't take any nonsense though, _ think that is ok. they don't take any nonsense though, do - think that is ok. they don't take any nonsense though, do you? i think that is ok. they don't take - any nonsense though, do you? when tina was talking _ any nonsense though, do you? when tina was talking about _ any nonsense though, do you? ing2“i tina was talking about shouting... our brains play tricks on us, we think it is either or both when you got five minutes to do something urgently and it needs to get then, if you shout at somebody they can't do their best thinking to help you. if you say, this is really urgent, can you help me, this is what i need, aid to help make the objective super clear for people, you will find people get their best brain on it. i pushed back on this idea you're either aggressive bully or super—soft. your description of your old boss is ideal, you've got

somebody who you trust, who has got your back and then can be really challenging because you know they are doing with positive intentions. his is will be burning. emily, the crying thing, emily, good morning. what happened? it crying thing, emily, good morning. what happened?— crying thing, emily, good morning. what happened? it was a long time a . o, what happened? it was a long time aao, iwill what happened? it was a long time ago. i will be _ what happened? it was a long time ago, i will be honest. _ what happened? it was a long time ago, i will be honest. the - what happened? it was a long time ago, i will be honest. the reason i l ago, i will be honest. the reason i messaged was because i understand, talking about dominic raab this morning, we are talking about bullying from people in leadership position. the bullying i experienced was from peers. i felt i wanted to raise that. i was a teacher, i was a newly qualified teacher, and i committed the ultimate sin of sitting in the wrong place in the staff room from quite early on. there were no names on seats but by all accounts there was an area of

the staff room for the younger and more inexperienced teachers and there was an area of the staff room for senior leaders and the head teacher. i sat there. that was where it all started. i was deemed to be too big for my boots, i was told there were lines of communication existing between me and senior leaders that shouldn't be existing, which i still find an odd comment. i was ultimately accused of having an intimate relationship with my boss and his deputy. the word threesome was bandied about. i would get into work early, try to prepare my lessons, i would be getting resources sorted and ipad teachers come in and just say how appalling work had been since i started there, how i was the blue—eyed girl, how nobody else got a look in. d0 how i was the blue-eyed girl, how nobody else got a look in.- nobody else got a look in. do they believe these _ nobody else got a look in. do they believe these accusations, - nobody else got a look in. do they

believe these accusations, these i believe these accusations, these rumours about you being in a threesome with a head teacher and the deputy head? did that catch fire with the other teachers? it the deputy head? did that catch fire with the other teachers?— with the other teachers? it did, sadl . it with the other teachers? it did, sadly- it got — with the other teachers? it did, sadly. it got to _ with the other teachers? it did, sadly. it got to the _ with the other teachers? it did, sadly. it got to the point - with the other teachers? it did, sadly. it got to the point where | with the other teachers? it did, | sadly. it got to the point where i went to speak to the boss about the fact that they thought we were having an affair. a got a point where i had to write a letter and go to speak to the bus which was quite uncomfortable about the fight these rumours are being spread. i was newly qualified, it was a long time ago. i used to drive to work and i'd be crying all the way, i'd have to wipe my eyes and make myself look presentable before going to teach children. i got to the point where it was completely, the position was untenable. when i did speak to the boss about it he was lovely. there wasn't an awful lot he could do, it wasn't an awful lot he could do, it was hearsay, word—of—mouth. i got a couple of text messages accidentally

sent to me. that was all i had got, otherwise it was word—of—mouth and they were told it needs to stop. there was nothing more formal, no more formal action taken. in the end, i was always planning to become a child psychologist so i did leave teaching but i definitely left it two or three years earlier that i had intended. for no other reason than the bullying. i loved teaching. sadly, when ijoined in educational psychology service had the same thing happen again so i did start thinking it must be me. i always felt that perhaps there was a jealousy, i'd got promotion quite early on as a teacher and there seem to be some jealousy around that and an assumption that could only have happened if inappropriate things

were happening. in the end, i became self—employed, i know you've got somebody else on who went self—employed. it seems a bit of a pattern. now i am a leader myself, i lead a team of 25. i'm not going to pretend leading is easy because i found it really difficult, it is one of difficult things i've ever done. when you do have to have those difficult conversations, it is awful, i don't sleep the night before, i worry about what i'm going to say. i think dulcie swanston picked up early about developing relationships with your team and the importance of trust. try to find out what works for them, how do they prefer to be spoken to. i can believe what _ prefer to be spoken to. i can believe what you have - prefer to be spoken to. i can believe what you have been | prefer to be spoken to. i can believe what you have been through. this is a general point, i think it was somebody who said earlier, it is about being a decent human being,

isn't it? i about being a decent human being, isn't it? ., . , about being a decent human being, isn't it? ., ., , ., , ., isn't it? i totally agree with you. it seems that _ isn't it? i totally agree with you. it seems that common - isn't it? i totally agree with you. it seems that common sense i isn't it? i totally agree with you. i it seems that common sense thing doesn't apply. 3 it seems that common sense thing doesn't apply-— it seems that common sense thing doesn't apply-_ we i it seems that common sense thing i doesn't apply._ we all doesn't apply. a good person. we all make mistakes. _ doesn't apply. a good person. we all make mistakes. i— doesn't apply. a good person. we all make mistakes. iwill— doesn't apply. a good person. we all make mistakes. i will apologise - doesn't apply. a good person. we all make mistakes. i will apologise as i doesn't apply. a good person. we all make mistakes. i will apologise as a| make mistakes. i will apologise as a leader if i think i've upset somebody is that we can all lesser. however decent we are. tell! somebody is that we can all lesser. however decent we are.— somebody is that we can all lesser. however decent we are. tell me about it. however decent we are. tell me about it- astonishing- _ however decent we are. tell me about it. astonishing. i'm _ however decent we are. tell me about it. astonishing. i'm going _ however decent we are. tell me about it. astonishing. i'm going to _ it. astonishing. i'm going to bring sandy in. but, alice, i right saying he worked as a senior civil servant? i was a civil servant, not a senior. with— i was a civil servant, not a senior. with a _ i was a civil servant, not a senior. with a last — i was a civil servant, not a senior. with a last caller, this relatively recently — with a last caller, this relatively recently. this was after all the processes _ recently. this was after all the processes had been changed and everybody was supposed to be happy and everything was supposed to be

wonderful. the toxicity and the bullying — wonderful. the toxicity and the bullying is still going on. i recently— bullying is still going on. i recently started doing the job role, was given— recently started doing the job role, was given a role i hadn't applied for and — was given a role i hadn't applied for and the person who was supposed to be training me was a good 15 years— to be training me was a good 15 years younger than me. but totally toxic. _ years younger than me. but totally toxic, dismissive of everything i said. _ toxic, dismissive of everything i said. if— toxic, dismissive of everything i said. if i— toxic, dismissive of everything i said, if i ask the question i was told _ said, if i ask the question i was told that— said, if i ask the question i was told that has got nothing to do with you. told that has got nothing to do with you i_ told that has got nothing to do with you. i kept — told that has got nothing to do with you. i kept saying how my supposed to do _ you. i kept saying how my supposed to do the _ you. i kept saying how my supposed to do the job? her reply was, he won't _ to do the job? her reply was, he won't be — to do the job? her reply was, he won't be here long anyway. people like you _ won't be here long anyway. people like you don't stay long. it was from _ like you don't stay long. it was from day— like you don't stay long. it was from day one. and you think, we are in 2023 _ from day one. and you think, we are in 2023 and — from day one. and you think, we are in 2023 and people are still being treated _ in 2023 and people are still being treated like this. i reported it several— treated like this. i reported it several times to senior managers, sent e—mails to hr, i used to drive to work— sent e—mails to hr, i used to drive to workand— sent e—mails to hr, i used to drive to workand i— sent e—mails to hr, i used to drive to work and i was stopping and throwing — to work and i was stopping and throwing up because i was so worried about— throwing up because i was so worried about getting there and what was going _ about getting there and what was

going to — about getting there and what was going to happen. nothing happened. nothing _ going to happen. nothing happened. nothing has