hello. this morning, we're heading to the classroom. the prime minister started the week telling us all to do our homework. without a solid foundation in maths, our children risk being left behind, shut out of careers they aspire to, and the lives that they want to lead. but the problems in schools are much more complex than one, two, three. the terrible death of the head teacher whose school was downgraded by inspectors has prompted calls for a rethink. what i think needs to happen, and should have happened already, is a pause in inspections. as teachers get ready to walk out of the classroom, and some kids struggle to catch up after covid, with some dreadful warnings about the state

of classrooms and morale in schools, we have one big question this morning. how best can parents and the public judge what's really going on? for her first interview since the death of ruth perry, the chief inpector of schools, amanda spielman, is here to answer our questions. after the prime minister's friend and deputy quit after he was found to have bullied stuff, the government's new number two — oliver dowden — is here too. the leader of the liberal democrats, sir ed davey, will be back in the studio, with only a couple of weeks until the local elections. vying for attention with labour, still well ahead in the polls — their pensions spokesman, jonathan ashworth is with us too. and with me at the megadesk. henry dimbleby, foodie, author, who until last month was helping the government with their plans. lorna hughes, editor of scotland's sunday mail. who's made the running on a series of important revelations about the snp. and the voice of thousands of teachers, and critic of ofsted,

mary bousted, the joint secreatry general of the neu. morning, and welcome to our megadesk. it looks a bit different this week because this is the huge desk we have to get ready for all the programmes and politicking around the local elections in a couple of weeks' time. and you are watching us on bbc two this week because of all those hardy and impressive souls who are pounding london's pavements over on bbc one. but i'm thrilled to be with you here. let's take a look at the papers today. the observer claims the tories have a plan to politicise the pill civil service after that the raab scandal. sunday times is a fascinating story

about an mi6 spy. the sunday telegraph says the home secretary is ready to defyjudges or migrants. we will talk about the sunday mail story with the editor, and the mirror has details of another lavish holiday for boris johnson, they claim. let's talk about schools, welcome to all three of you, thank you for being with us. mary, is the way that schools inspected working at the moment? m0. way that schools inspected working at the moment?— way that schools inspected working at the moment? no, it's not working at the moment? no, it's not working at all. the problem _ at the moment? no, it's not working at all. the problem is, _ at the moment? no, it's not working at all. the problem is, the _ at the moment? no, it's not working at all. the problem is, the crisis - at all. the problem is, the crisis has now come to a poor but it has been a problem which has been growing over decades. the problem is that ofsted does not inspect schools fairly and ofsted doesn't know whether it raises quality in schools at all, it has no research to back up at all, it has no research to back up the claims it makes about getting schools to be better at teaching and learning. and the problem that

teachers and leaders have is that they have got no idea which inspection team will turn up at their school, one which will do a decent inspection or one which will be aggressive and demeaning. so you think the variability _ be aggressive and demeaning. so you think the variability in _ be aggressive and demeaning. so you think the variability in the _ be aggressive and demeaning. so you think the variability in the system - think the variability in the system is there, so this conversation has come about because of the very sad death of ruth perry, head teacher who took her own life. there is an interesting history to something quite similar that happened in scotland where schools are run differently and inspected differently, but to tell us what happened. differently, but to tell us what happened-— differently, but to tell us what happened. differently, but to tell us what hauened. ' , ., ., ., happened. about 15 years ago, a teacher died _ happened. about 15 years ago, a teacher died in _ happened. about 15 years ago, a teacher died in the _ happened. about 15 years ago, a teacher died in the borders, - happened. about 15 years ago, a teacher died in the borders, and i happened. about 15 years ago, a i teacher died in the borders, and it was certainly decided, there was an inquiry, _ was certainly decided, there was an inquiry, it— was certainly decided, there was an inquiry, it was felt that she had taken _ inquiry, it was felt that she had taken her— inquiry, it was felt that she had taken her own life as a result of an inspection — taken her own life as a result of an inspection. it was a cultural shift, and it_ inspection. it was a cultural shift, and it meant that the traditional inspections didn't actually happen, and it_ inspections didn't actually happen, and it is_ inspections didn't actually happen, and it is far— inspections didn't actually happen, and it is far more over the course

of days, — and it is far more over the course of days, it — and it is far more over the course of days, it has a number of factors involved~ — of days, it has a number of factors involved. certainly i don't think in scotland — involved. certainly i don't think in scotland we see the same problems that teachers are talking about. there _ that teachers are talking about. there was — that teachers are talking about. there was a culture change. people might say, everybody blames the referee, teachers don't like being judged, as a parent, do you think ofsted is useful? i judged, as a parent, do you think ofsted is useful?— ofsted is useful? i have been a arent ofsted is useful? i have been a parent and _ ofsted is useful? i have been a parent and a — ofsted is useful? i have been a parent and a governor- ofsted is useful? i have been a parent and a governor in - ofsted is useful? i have been a parent and a governor in a - ofsted is useful? i have been a| parent and a governor in a state school _ parent and a governor in a state school in — parent and a governor in a state school in hackney. _ parent and a governor in a state school in hackney. clearly - parent and a governor in a state school in hackney. clearly you l parent and a governor in a state - school in hackney. clearly you need someone, _ school in hackney. clearly you need someone, it — school in hackney. clearly you need someone, it is— school in hackney. clearly you need someone, it is useful— school in hackney. clearly you need someone, it is useful to— school in hackney. clearly you need someone, it is useful to have - someone, it is useful to have someone _ someone, it is useful to have someone holding _ someone, it is useful to have someone holding you - someone, it is useful to have someone holding you to - someone, it is useful to have - someone holding you to account. i thihk_ someone holding you to account. i think the _ someone holding you to account. i think the conversations _ someone holding you to account. i think the conversations that - someone holding you to account. i think the conversations that the i think the conversations that the ofsted — think the conversations that the ofsted inspector— think the conversations that the ofsted inspector we _ think the conversations that the ofsted inspector we had - think the conversations that the ofsted inspector we had with i ofsted inspector we had with governors— ofsted inspector we had with governors was _ ofsted inspector we had with governors was very - ofsted inspector we had with governors was very useful. ofsted inspector we had with| governors was very useful for ofsted inspector we had with - governors was very useful for us. what _ governors was very useful for us. what i _ governors was very useful for us. what i was — governors was very useful for us. what i was there _ governors was very useful for us. what i was there about _ governors was very useful for us. what i was there about —— - governors was very useful for us. what i was there about —— what i| what i was there about —— what i worry— what i was there about —— what i worry about, _ what i was there about —— what i worry about, if _ what i was there about —— what i worry about, if you _ what i was there about —— what i worry about, if you get _ what i was there about —— what i worry about, if you get your - worry about, if you get your excellent, _ worry about, if you get your excellent, there _ worry about, if you get your excellent, there is- worry about, if you get your excellent, there is a - worry about, if you get your excellent, there is a huge . worry about, if you get your . excellent, there is a huge gap between — excellent, there is a huge gap between inspections. - excellent, there is a huge gap between inspections. i- excellent, there is a huge gap between inspections. i think. excellent, there is a huge gap| between inspections. i think it should — between inspections. i think it should be _ between inspections. i think it should be little _ between inspections. i think it should be little and _ between inspections. i think it should be little and often, - between inspections. i think it i should be little and often, more sopportive. _ should be little and often, more supportive, rather— should be little and often, more supportive, ratherthan- should be little and often, more supportive, rather than a - should be little and often, more - supportive, rather than a judgment. the process— supportive, rather than a judgment. the process enables _ supportive, rather than a judgment. the process enables you _ supportive, rather than a judgment. the process enables you to - supportive, rather than a judgment. the process enables you to ask- supportive, rather than a judgment. the process enables you to ask thel the process enables you to ask the i’ili'it the process enables you to ask the right questions _ the process enables you to ask the right questions. lots _ the process enables you to ask the right questions.— right questions. lots to get into with the chief—

right questions. lots to get into with the chief inspector, - right questions. lots to get into with the chief inspector, with i right questions. lots to get into l with the chief inspector, with the chief inspector later. thank you to all of you. now let's go to the classroom. injanuary headteacher ruth perry took her own life while waiting for an ofsted report to be published. she knew it would downgrade the school she loved from outstanding to inadequate, the lowest measure. her death supercharged a conversation already under way about how england's schools are inspected and graded and led to many teachers expressing concerns about the pressure. this week ofsted said it was going to make some changes following ruth's death. but her family has clearly laid the blame for her death at ofsted's door, and are calling for a halt to all inspections. there is no doubt in my family's mind at all that ruth killed herself because of that ofsted inspection. she was fine beforehand, she was not fine during and after it. so it's... it is potentially dangerous.

to be clear, no one can know exactly what was going on in ruth perry's mind but you hear how clear her family's conviction was what was happening. welcome to you, amanda spielman, the chief inspector for england's schools, this is the first time you have spoken since that terrible event. what is your response to the family's very clear view that the downgrade of the school plate clear role in her death? , ., ., death? first of all, ruth perry's death? first of all, ruth perry's death was _ death? first of all, ruth perry's death was clearly _ death? first of all, ruth perry's death was clearly a _ death? first of all, ruth perry's death was clearly a very - death? first of all, ruth perry's death was clearly a very tragic i death was clearly a very tragic event, we have the most profound sympathy with her family and all of the caversham school community. there will be a coroners inquest in the not—too—distant future and we will be fully cooperating with that, sharing everything we have. so do ou think sharing everything we have. so do you think that _ sharing everything we have. so do you think that the _ sharing everything we have. so do you think that the inspection - sharing everything we have. so do you think that the inspection came to the right conclusion? i do. you think that the inspection came to the right conclusion?— to the right conclusion? i do, i think the _ to the right conclusion? i do, i think the findings _ to the right conclusion? i do, i think the findings were - to the right conclusion? i do, i think the findings were secure | to the right conclusion? i do, i- think the findings were secure and i think the findings were secure and i think the findings were secure and i think the inspection team worked with the professionalism and sensitivity that i would expect from our inspectors. sensitivity that i would expect from our insnectors-_ our inspectors. have you any concerns — our inspectors. have you any concerns at _ our inspectors. have you any

concerns at all— our inspectors. have you any concerns at all about - our inspectors. have you any concerns at all about what i our inspectors. have you any - concerns at all about what happened during that inspection when her school went from outstanding to inadequate?— school went from outstanding to inadeuuate? ., ., ., , inadequate? from what i have seen, i don't have any — inadequate? from what i have seen, i don't have any reason _ inadequate? from what i have seen, i don't have any reason to _ inadequate? from what i have seen, i don't have any reason to doubt - inadequate? from what i have seen, i don't have any reason to doubt the i don't have any reason to doubt the inspection. inspection is a sensitive process. we are there looking for children, looking for whether education is right for children, looking at whether, protecting children's welfare is happening the way it should. that can mean sometimes we have a very difficult and sensitive conversations in an inspection. our inspectors are trained, prepared, they have all worked in schools themselves, they really understand what it feels like at the receiving end. ~ . . ~ what it feels like at the receiving end. ~ ., .,~ ., ., end. we have taken a look at the re ort end. we have taken a look at the report into _ end. we have taken a look at the report into caversham _ end. we have taken a look at the report into caversham as - end. we have taken a look at the report into caversham as you - end. we have taken a look at the report into caversham as you can expect when we can show the summary to our viewers this morning. it was knocked good on the quality of education, good on behaviour, good on personal development, inadequate on personal development, inadequate on leadership, good on early years provision. if you look further into the reports, there were some quotes, pupils enjoy coming to this

welcoming and vibrant school, reshaped —— relationships between staff are warm and supportive. when you look at that, i do read the report in full, and you listen to the outpouring of concern there has beenin the outpouring of concern there has been in the community and terrible sadness, can you not help but conclude that to judge school with one blunt word, inadequate, is to blunt a system? 50. one blunt word, inadequate, is to blunt a system?— blunt a system? so, first of all, it's really _ blunt a system? so, first of all, it's really important _ blunt a system? so, first of all, it's really important to - blunt a system? so, first of all, i it's really important to understand that we do look at safeguarding as well as all of the aspects of quality of education. we look at behaviour, personal development, leadership and management, but there are times when failures in safeguarding can be sufficiently serious that that alone can bring an overalljudgment down. we actually make a number ofjudgments in an inspection, four keyjudgments plus a judgment on the effectiveness of safeguarding. yes, they are synthesised into an overall judgment, that is partly to help parents. we know that parents like

the clarity and simplicity of the model. it's also because the wider system or school accountability that government operates does use those overalljudgments. so it's not for us to say we are going to fundamentally change the grading system, that would have to be a government conversation. there has been a huge — government conversation. there has been a huge conversation _ government conversation. there has been a huge conversation about - been a huge conversation about boiling all of the complexities, all of the norwich in a school, the environment —— knowledge in a school, the environment in the atmosphere in the school into a one—word label. you say that parents want it but we have been inundated with e—mails, suzanne says, i would like to know why ofsted continue with his scoring system labelling school good or bad does not give me a choice. the submitted report is clear and fair. are you telling parents watching this morning that you do not trust them to watch four pages of reports, they can only deal

with one word? {iii pages of reports, they can only deal with one word?— with one word? of course we trust them and we _ with one word? of course we trust them and we test _ with one word? of course we trust them and we test our _ with one word? of course we trust them and we test our reports. - with one word? of course we trust them and we test our reports. we| them and we test our reports. we have done a lot of work with parents to find out whether they find our reports useful, that is a core part of our work, it is one of the audiences, the prime audience, parents once the assurance of the —— they want the assurance of the inspection process as well as the reports themselves.— inspection process as well as the reports themselves. when it comes to the im act reports themselves. when it comes to the impact that _ reports themselves. when it comes to the impact that that _ reports themselves. when it comes to the impact that that single _ reports themselves. when it comes to the impact that that single word - reports themselves. when it comes to the impact that that single word can i the impact that that single word can have, it clearly is causing huge concern. we had another e—mailfrom a teacher which said, i thought in a secondary school for 43 years. to label a school in a single word based on two days is far to simply stick. the teacher asked, i would like to know how many years teaching experience you have to give you confidence to say this is the best way of doing things.— confidence to say this is the best way of doing things. every inspector has many years _ way of doing things. every inspector has many years of — way of doing things. every inspector has many years of experience, - way of doing things. every inspector| has many years of experience, every inspector has been a school leader, every inspector knows what it is like at the receiving end. it's really important to understand that.

this is not a group of people from a completely different context coming in and having these conversations and having thesejudgments, it is people who are themselves deeply steeped in the world of schools, many of them are current serving heads or deputy heads. our inspection model draws on the sector, so it's really important for people to understand inspectors are not beings from another planet, they are absolutely human beings understanding there sensitivities and difficult issues. d0 understanding there sensitivities and difficult issues.— and difficult issues. do you think then that nothing _ and difficult issues. do you think then that nothing is _ and difficult issues. do you think then that nothing is going - and difficult issues. do you think. then that nothing is going wrong? i think inspection has a toughjob then that nothing is going wrong? i think inspection has a tough job to do. many people are profoundly opposed to the wider system of accountability who would like something very different. it's essentially a political debate about the right way to run the school system... the right way to run the school system- - -_ the right way to run the school s stem... �* , ., ., ., system... but you must have had a view as the — system... but you must have had a view as the chief _ system... but you must have had a view as the chief inspector - system... but you must have had a view as the chief inspector of - view as the chief inspector of schools, and on that particular issue of the one word, you said it was a minister decision as to whether or not they will stick to that system. but with your

experience of running the organisation, and i know you are standing down towards the end of this year, with your experience, actually, would it be better to say, let's get rid of that label, give people the four page report, do the job in the same way but get rid of the one word which can cause such distress and upset? you know when a school is rated inadequate, you know what happens, sometimes people leave or lose theirjobs.— or lose their “obs. there are two questions — or lose theirjobs. there are two questions roll— or lose theirjobs. there are two questions roll up _ or lose theirjobs. there are two questions roll up in _ or lose theirjobs. there are two questions roll up in that. - or lose theirjobs. there are two questions roll up in that. one i or lose theirjobs. there are two questions roll up in that. one is| questions roll up in that. one is about thejudgment questions roll up in that. one is about the judgment themselves and one is about the wording. my view is if we just change the wording with the samejudgments, in if we just change the wording with the same judgments, in three or six or nine months, people will be saying, it's not about the precise wording, it's about what they signify. it's really important to concentrate on what they signify. everyjudgment in the system has a use at the moment. they are used not just for parents but also for government, both in allocating support and in deciding where interventions are necessary so it

would have to be a bigger, wider reform of the education system to do that. we have designed the model inspection and the set ofjudgments to fit the education system as it is currently conceived. it would be possible to run the whole school system differently, and you might design inspection differently for that. but for the system as it stands today, we have designed a solid model. d0 stands today, we have designed a solid model-— solid model. do you think it is an effective model? _ solid model. do you think it is an effective model? academics - solid model. do you think it is an | effective model? academics have looked at ten years of suspect inspections and once they —— ofsted inspections, once they have into account children's background, they have basically found no detectable difference, that was the academic�*s phrase, between good, it requires improvement and inadequate, so what evidence do you have that it is working? taste evidence do you have that it is workin: ? ~ ., ., q; :: evidence do you have that it is workinr? ~ ., ., ;;:: , ., , ., working? we have got 30 years of ofsted in action, _ working? we have got 30 years of ofsted in action, we _ working? we have got 30 years of ofsted in action, we have - working? we have got 30 years of ofsted in action, we have been i working? we have got 30 years of. ofsted in action, we have been doing ourjob thoroughly and carefully. it may be contributing to their being live relatively little between

school variation compared to others. we have recently started inspecting schools that were judged outstanding many years ago, an exception was put in place for outstanding schools in 2010 so sometimes they went 15 years without an inspection. mas 2010 so sometimes they went 15 years without an inspection.— without an inspection. was that a mistake? l _ without an inspection. was that a mistake? i do _ without an inspection. was that a mistake? i do believe _ without an inspection. was that a mistake? i do believe it - without an inspection. was that a mistake? i do believe it was - without an inspection. was that a mistake? i do believe it was a i mistake? i do believe it was a mistake? i do believe it was a mistake and _ mistake? i do believe it was a mistake and the _ mistake? i do believe it was a mistake and the profile - mistake? i do believe it was a mistake and the profile we i mistake? i do believe it was a | mistake and the profile we are seeing coming out of inspection now shows that many of those schools are no longer coming out as outstanding. that is what we believe happened at caversham primary. before we move on to some wider issues, her family say that you have not been in contact with them. and they have found that difficult. are you going to speak to ruth perry's family? {iii difficult. are you going to speak to ruth perry's family?— difficult. are you going to speak to ruth perry's family? of course, we would be more _ ruth perry's family? of course, we would be more than _ ruth perry's family? of course, we would be more than happy - ruth perry's family? of course, we would be more than happy to - ruth perry's family? of course, we| would be more than happy to speak ruth perry's family? of course, we i would be more than happy to speak to them as they would like to. we have not wanted to intrude on their grief, but we would happily speak to them. ldistill

grief, but we would happily speak to them. ~ ,, ~ , grief, but we would happily speak to them. ~ . , ., grief, but we would happily speak to them. ~ m , ., grief, but we would happily speak to them. . y., ~ , ., y., ., them. will you? why have you not reached out _ them. will you? why have you not reached out so _ them. will you? why have you not reached out so far? _ them. will you? why have you not reached out so far? it _ them. will you? why have you not reached out so far? it is _ them. will you? why have you not reached out so far? it is a - them. will you? why have you not reached out so far? it is a delicatej reached out so far? it is a delicate balance, reached out so far? it is a delicate balance. when _ reached out so far? it is a delicate balance, when you _ reached out so far? it is a delicate balance, when you have _ reached out so far? it is a delicate balance, when you have a - reached out so far? it is a delicatej balance, when you have a grieving family, whether to intrude on that or not, but as i say, we are absolutely open to do that. they have said publicly _ absolutely open to do that. they have said publicly they _ absolutely open to do that. they have said publicly they have not heard from you, and we have also spoken to her sister here at the bbc, she has expressed a desire to have contact from you. why do you think more broadly there is a culture of fear around ofsted? maybe there are myths, maybe it is not justified, but do you know is that the culture does exist? i certainly acknowledge _ the culture does exist? i certainly acknowledge that _ the culture does exist? i certainly acknowledge that it _ the culture does exist? i certainly acknowledge that it exists. - the culture does exist? i certainly acknowledge that it exists. it - acknowledge that it exists. it comes from a couple things perhaps, once the consequences that people think about in the context of inspection, especially for inadequate judgments, which i should say are a tiny proportion. nearly nine out of ten schools going through inspection, thejudgment is good or outstanding. for the vast majority of schools, i

notice a positive and affirming experience. notice a positive and affirming exoerience-— notice a positive and affirming i experience.- absolutely, notice a positive and affirming - experience.- absolutely, we experience. really? absolutely, we aet len experience. really? absolutely, we get plenty of _ experience. really? absolutely, we get plenty of feedback _ experience. really? absolutely, we get plenty of feedback saying - experience. really? absolutely, we get plenty of feedback saying that i get plenty of feedback saying that inspection is a construct of professional dialogue. that is what it is designed to be, a dialogue that we helps people to think about what they are doing, and helps them to take things forward. that is the essence of how we design it and how we train people. {lilia essence of how we design it and how we train people-— we train people. ok, i want to talk about some _ we train people. ok, i want to talk about some wider _ we train people. ok, i want to talk about some wider issues, - we train people. ok, i want to talk about some wider issues, because | about some wider issues, because ofsted is a big survey of what is going on in our schools all over the place. is it harder, do you think, to be a pupil in this country since the pandemic? i to be a pupil in this country since the pandemic?— the pandemic? i think it is a very tou:h the pandemic? i think it is a very tough time _ the pandemic? i think it is a very tough time for _ the pandemic? i think it is a very tough time for schools _ the pandemic? i think it is a very tough time for schools at - the pandemic? i think it is a very tough time for schools at the - tough time for schools at the moment, full teachers, heads, and pupils. the post—covid hangover is quite a cute, if i can put it like that. we have all sucked of different post—covid problems. schools that a fantastic job, different post—covid problems. schools that a fantasticjob, coming back they have pupils with academic catch up needs but also with greater mental health difficulties, more

special educational needs, behaviour is challenging, socialisation, so it is challenging, socialisation, so it is a really hard time to manage a schools, especially when the external services that you need more of our sometimes not yet fully back on stream, so it is a tough time. it has been very striking in the last couple of days, we have heard from lots of teachers and lots of parents, do you think that this is a sector that is in bad shape? do you worry about what is going on? have you seen it like this before? i think there's a lot of unhappiness, there are disputes with government about pay and funding, there's clearly a lot of bad feeling around, and when bad feeling around, ofsted often often becomes a sort of lightning rod through which the tensions and frustrations can be discharged. d0 tensions and frustrations can be discharged-— discharged. do you think you're bein: discharged. do you think you're being unfairly _ discharged. do you think you're being unfairly blamed? - discharged. do you think you're being unfairly blamed? i- discharged. do you think you're being unfairly blamed? i think. discharged. do you think you're| being unfairly blamed? i think it discharged. do you think you're i being unfairly blamed? i think it is very important _ being unfairly blamed? i think it is very important to _ being unfairly blamed? i think it is very important to understand - being unfairly blamed? i think it is very important to understand that | very important to understand that there is a wider disagreement here between different factions about how schools should be run, how school

accountability should work more broadly. we are just one part of that system, we are not the regulator, just inspected it, we do not make decisions about what happens to schools. it is interesting _ happens to schools. it is interesting to _ happens to schools. it is interesting to here - happens to schools. it is interesting to here a - happens to schools. it is interesting to here a lot| happens to schools. it is i interesting to here a lot of happens to schools. it is interesting to here a lot of anxiety and anger towards how ofsted inspectors sometimes behave, a lot of anger was how the organisation operates, and i do not think anybody would doubt your good intentions, but listening to you this morning, i think some of our viewers might wonder if usually understand the depth of feeling, if you really get the strength of feeling towards ofsted. i the strength of feeling towards ofsted. ., , ,., , ., the strength of feeling towards ofsted. ., , , ., , ., ofsted. i absolutely do, but i also ve hard ofsted. i absolutely do, but i also very hard at— ofsted. i absolutely do, but i also very hard at what _ ofsted. i absolutely do, but i also very hard at what we _ ofsted. i absolutely do, but i also very hard at what we actually - ofsted. i absolutely do, but i alsoj very hard at what we actually hear back from inspections on the ground, it is very difficult when you have the reality on the ground and also the reality on the ground and also the perceptions that can sometimes get exacerbated by external narratives.—

get exacerbated by external narratives. ~ ., ., ., _ narratives. what do you mean by that? if narratives. what do you mean by that? if you _ narratives. what do you mean by that? if you have _ narratives. what do you mean by that? if you have not _ narratives. what do you mean by| that? if you have not experienced that? if you have not experienced that in recent _ that? if you have not experienced that in recent years, _ that? if you have not experienced that in recent years, they - that? if you have not experienced that in recent years, they may - that? if you have not experienced i that in recent years, they may come to believe things that are not actually true, so firstly we had a big covid suspension, quite a small proportion of schools that have been inspected since the pandemic began, thatis inspected since the pandemic began, that is quite a long while in the many people's working lives. and inspection on the touch is a small proportion of people in the school, so you might have a very constructive conversation, but there simply is not the capacity in the system to go out and meet every teacher, talk to every teacher. i wish there were, but we have to work within the constraints that are set. one thing many people are concerned about is the rate of absences. we know there is a significant increase, some latest figures suggest that 140,000 children in

england alone, i believe, who are regularly severely absent. where are all these kids who are missing so much school?— much school? firstly it is clear that some _ much school? firstly it is clear that some children _ much school? firstly it is clear that some children have - much school? firstly it is clear that some children have fallenj much school? firstly it is clear- that some children have fallen out of the system entirely, it is very hard to know what is going on. we inspect schools and colleges and apprenticeships, such as howard foster know where they are. but there's also within that far more children are attending some but not enough school, the children who three years ago were there nine days out of ten, now they are eight days out of ten, now they are eight days out of ten, now they are eight days out of ten. it out of ten, now they are eight days out of ten. , . out of ten. it is a significant problem. — out of ten. it is a significant problem, children - out of ten. it is a significant problem, children have - out of ten. it is a significant. problem, children have slipped through the net.— problem, children have slipped through the net. there is a very big u-rou through the net. there is a very big a-rou of through the net. there is a very big group of children _ through the net. there is a very big group of children who _ through the net. there is a very big group of children who are _ through the net. there is a very big group of children who are not - group of children who are not attending school enough to really get the most out of it, to get the benefit of education you do need to benefit of education you do need to be their day after day, month after month, it is a long—term business education, so doing everything that

we can to make sure that children are in school regularly, to help schools maintain relationships with family. we published a report last year summarising all the things that we can see are helpful, but we know this is a big sector challenge. there have been already some teaching strikes, there are going to be more, we will talk about it a bit later this morning, but are you concerned about the damage that could do to children? {iii concerned about the damage that could do to children?— could do to children? of course, children have _ could do to children? of course, children have missed _ could do to children? of course, children have missed a - could do to children? of course, children have missed a great - could do to children? of course, l children have missed a great deal could do to children? of course, - children have missed a great deal of the last couple of years, it is so important that their education continues and is interrupted as little as possible. so continues and is interrupted as little as possible.— little as possible. so you urge the unions not _ little as possible. so you urge the unions not to _ little as possible. so you urge the unions not to walk _ little as possible. so you urge the unions not to walk out _ little as possible. so you urge the unions not to walk out or- little as possible. so you urge the unions not to walk out or the - unions not to walk out or the government to meet the demands? i hope it is resolved as quickly as possible because children need to be in schools. . ~ possible because children need to be in schools. ., ,, , ., , possible because children need to be in schools. . ~' , ., , . possible because children need to be in schools. ., ,, i. , . ., in schools. thank you very much for takin: all in schools. thank you very much for taking all of— in schools. thank you very much for taking all of our _ in schools. thank you very much for

taking all of our questions. - in schools. thank you very much for taking all of our questions. let - in schools. thank you very much for taking all of our questions. let us i taking all of our questions. let us know what you thought about what amanda had to say. in a few minutes, we'll check in with the leader of one of the big teaching unions. but contending with schools is just one of the things on rishi sunak�*s list. 48 hours ago, he lost one of his biggest friends and allies, dominic raab quit after an independent report said he had bullied staff, although he didn't agree. look, if someone had hurt feelings because of something i did, of course i want an empowered team. the vast majority of the civil servants who worked for me were brilliant, fantastic. and actually relished the energy, the challenge, the drive that i believe i brought. but of course i don't want to upset anyone, and i made it clear that i'm sorry for that. but that's not bullying, and we can't deliver for the british people if the bar is that low. the newly minted deputy prime minister, oliver dowden, is with me this morning. thank you for coming in. the

departure of yourformer thank you for coming in. the departure of your former colleague dominic rob has prompted a bit of a conversation about bullying at work, what is doing and what is not. are you confident you have never bullied anyone? —— dominic raab. i’m anyone? -- dominic raab. i'm confident— anyone? -- dominic raab. i'm confident the _ anyone? —— dominic raab. i�*m confident the people who have worked with me would never accept that characterisation. we are all working hard to serve the british people, of course we all have frustrations. dominic raab has got people thinking about what they're wearing is at work, and it may not be in 2023 what people had traditionally thought. so are there any moments that you can think of when maybe you wish now, you wonder, if your behaviour might have been perceived like that by a member of your staff? {iii have been perceived like that by a member of your staff?— member of your staff? of course we all work hard _ member of your staff? of course we all work hard to _ member of your staff? of course we all work hard to be _ member of your staff? of course we all work hard to be as _ member of your staff? of course we all work hard to be as professional. all work hard to be as professional as we possibly can, but at the heart of it, i think anyone who has worked at the top level of government, and i have been fortunate enough to serve as a cabinet minister, knows that we are in highly pressured situations, and i certainly don't want the outcome of this to be, and

it certainly will not be the case, that there will be any letting up of high standards, but you are right to say times of change, and if you look back to what happened, no great secret, with gordon brown when he was prime minister, i don't think that kind of conduct with him would be acceptable in today's climate. the question also been raised by dominic raab is about the civil service, he has essentially are just people of trying to block him, is that not actually the truth that what is an independence senior lawyer found, what is an independence senior lawyerfound, he behaved badly sometimes, and then he was found out, as a similar him trying to blame other people from his mistakes? i blame other people from his mistakes?— blame other people from his mistakes? ., ., ,, . mistakes? i have worked with dominic raab it what, — mistakes? i have worked with dominic raab it what, particularly _ mistakes? i have worked with dominic raab it what, particularly at _ mistakes? i have worked with dominic raab it what, particularly at the - raab it what, particularly at the time when he stood in for boris johnson at the height of the covid

pandemic, i have great respect for him as a public servant, but he was very clear that if there was an adverse finding against him in this report, he would resign. dom is a man of his word... he report, he would resign. dom is a man of his word. . ._ report, he would resign. dom is a man of his word... he was accused of something. — man of his word... he was accused of something. he _ man of his word... he was accused of something, he was _ man of his word... he was accused of something, he was found _ man of his word... he was accused of something, he was found to - man of his word... he was accused of something, he was found to have - man of his word... he was accused of. something, he was found to have gone wrong, and he said, aha, yes, but those people were trying to stop me from doing what i was doing. have you seen civil servants trying to block government? i you seen civil servants trying to block government?— you seen civil servants trying to block government? i think of things i have block government? i think of things i have been — block government? i think of things i have been able _ block government? i think of things i have been able to _ block government? i think of things i have been able to achieve - block government? i think of things| i have been able to achieve together with civil servants, i think at the height of the covid pandemic, when all of the theatres and anything else were shut down, we worked together closely as a team, with the treasury, with number ten, to negotiate the culture recovery fund that saved arts and culture in this country, so i think we can work constructively together. what i would not want to be the outcome of this is that there is some kind of diminution in the ability of ministers to expect the highest standards, because in the end,

senior civil servants and senior ministers are united in their goal of serving the british people. i do think that out of the report, there is a need to look at our processes around that, and that is why we will be looking at it to see where we can make it simpler, fairer, and less complaints. but make it simpler, fairer, and less complaints-— complaints. but do you believe dominic raab _ complaints. but do you believe dominic raab when _ complaints. but do you believe dominic raab when he - complaints. but do you believe dominic raab when he says i complaints. but do you believel dominic raab when he says that complaints. but do you believe i dominic raab when he says that is what has happened, or do you believe the people who expressed their concerns to this independent lawyer who found that in two cases, he had behaved as italy?— behaved as italy? well, the prime minister set _ behaved as italy? well, the prime minister set up _ behaved as italy? well, the prime minister set up the _ behaved as italy? well, the prime minister set up the report - behaved as italy? well, the prime minister set up the report to - behaved as italy? well, the prime| minister set up the report to which there's not much further i can add. i am asking who believe, minister. you know is first of all the allegations, there really isn't anything further i can add in respect of that. as i said to you, it has not been my experience working with civil servants that we cannot work together in a constructive way. i have not experienced that. however, i of course have experience frustrations,

we all have experienced frustrations, because in the end, we are passionate about delivering for the british people. and that is not just ministers of political colour, top ministers across the years worked very hard to try and serve the british people in the best way that they think possible, and in my experience, most civil servants are committed to doing that. it is really important, though, that we continue to be able to expect the very high standards, and i know the premise that is committed to that, as am i. i premise that is committed to that, as am i. ., ., ., premise that is committed to that, asami. ., ., ., as am i. i want to ask you to respond — as am i. i want to ask you to respond to _ as am i. i want to ask you to respond to what _ as am i. i want to ask you to respond to what amanda - as am i. i want to ask you to i respond to what amanda said. as am i. i want to ask you to - respond to what amanda said. every body knows about the tragic case of ruth perry, the head teacher who took her life after school was to be downgraded from outstanding to inadequate. as now the second most senior politician in the country, are you satisfied with how ofsted is run more broadly? i are you satisfied with how ofsted is run more broadly?— are you satisfied with how ofsted is run more broadly? i have confidence in how ofsted _ run more broadly? i have confidence in how ofsted is _ run more broadly? i have confidence in how ofsted is on. _ run more broadly? i have confidence in how ofsted is on. if _ run more broadly? i have confidence in how ofsted is on. if you _ run more broadly? i have confidence in how ofsted is on. if you will- in how ofsted is on. if you will forgive me, i did not hearfully the

interview that's just took place. i think it is the case that, if you look at this tragic case of the head teacher who took her life, we way in which safeguarding issues are treated, and it is an important we uphold the highest standards of safeguarding, the proportionality of that in terms of the overall rating of the school, does needs to be looked at, and i believe that ofsted are committed to doing that. do you think it is sometimes _ are committed to doing that. do you think it is sometimes over— are committed to doing that. do you think it is sometimes over the - are committed to doing that. do you think it is sometimes over the top i think it is sometimes over the top and it can switch the whole judgment of a school? i and it can switch the whole 'udgment of a school? ~ , of a school? i think it is important that a proportionate _ of a school? i think it is important that a proportionate approach - of a school? i think it is important that a proportionate approach to i of a school? i think it is important i that a proportionate approach to the set a proportionate approach is taken, in my experience of working with teachers as they are passionately committed to supporting the children in their schools, but it is also right that we do expect high standards, and ofsted has been a pivotal part in delivering that. if you look at what has happened under this government, for example 88% of schools are now good and outstanding, we have to be able to hold teachers and head teachers to account to make sure they are

delivering for the pupils and the parents that they serve. but we don't want to do so in a way that excessively puts focus on one issue over another. i excessively puts focus on one issue over another-— over another. i would like to ask about something _ over another. i would like to ask about something else, - over another. i would like to ask about something else, and - over another. i would like to ask - about something else, and unfolding very dangerous situation, it seems, the african of sudan. the states as evacuating their diplomats, france is going to start trying to bring some of its nationals home, as we understand it. why is the uk just telling people to stay inside? our first ourfirst put —— ourfirst our first put —— our first priority is to protect british nationals. clearly it is a complex and fluid situation. it is the case that the ministry of defence is acting in support of the foreign and commonwealth office. now, you would not expect me right now for security reasons to comment on ongoing movements on the ground. but that is the current situation. i would say to british nationals who are in that

country, they should follow the advice which is to stay indoors, to make the foreign office wear through their website of their location. it sounds like you might therefore be preparing to help people get out and other countries are talking about this. nobody watching would want you to give specific security details but other countries are doing different things, it amount —— it sounds like you might be preparing to help british nationals get out, is that true?— to help british nationals get out, is that true? ., . ., ., , is that true? you reference what has ha--ened is that true? you reference what has happened in — is that true? you reference what has happened in other _ is that true? you reference what has happened in other countries. - is that true? you reference what has happened in other countries. what i | happened in other countries. what i would say is the situation in sudan is very different to what you saw in afghanistan, and clearly we don't have the kind of personnel and so on that we had in that situation. so the current advice for british nationals is to stay—at—home, to make the foreign office aware of their situation. as i say, the foreign office are being

operationally supported by the ministry of defence actively, but i can't give you any further comment. 0k. can't give you any further comment. ok. i know today, finally, you want to remind everybody about the loud noise that is going to go off on every single mobile phone in the country this afternoon, this test of the emergency alert. some of the papers have said this is a new level of nanny state, why are you doing this? i of nanny state, why are you doing this? ., ., ., .. , ., this? i would not accept that characterisation. _ this? i would not accept that characterisation. if— this? i would not accept that characterisation. if you - this? i would not accept that characterisation. if you look | this? i would not accept that i characterisation. if you look at countries around the world whether it is the united states, canada, japan and elsewhere, they have emergency alerts on phones as another tool in the toolkit of keeping people elected during an emergency. what we are going to do this afternoon at 3pm test the system. it's a bit like when the fire alarm goes off at work. it can be a bit inconvenient and annoying, but i think in future people will be grateful that we tested the system. what i would say to your viewers is at the bpm, when this siren which i should say is —— at 3pm, when the

siren which is the volume of a phone call goes off, you don't need to do anything, it'sjust call goes off, you don't need to do anything, it's just a test. call goes off, you don't need to do anything, it'sjust a test.— anything, it's 'ust a test. people will be anything, it'sjust a test. people will be noting that _ anything, it'sjust a test. people will be noting that down, - anything, it'sjust a test. people will be noting that down, and i i anything, it'sjust a test. people i will be noting that down, and i am just thinking, we have never had a fire alarm go off in this studio so i hope that never happens, i don't want to tempt fate! thank you for coming in two days in your newjob as deputy prime minister, oliver dowden, thank you for your time. well, we have heard from the government this morning, but most notably from the boss of ofsted, amanda spielman. she told us she has no reason to doubt what happened with the inspection of caversham primary, the school of ruth perry, the head teacher who sadly took her own life. you speak of thousands of teachers, mary bousted, you are a critic of ofsted, but i am fascinated to know what you made of what amanda spielman had to say. i what you made of what amanda spielman had to say.— what you made of what amanda spielman had to say. i thought it was very notable _ spielman had to say. i thought it was very notable that _ spielman had to say. i thought it was very notable that amanda i was very notable that amanda spielman accepted that ofsted created a culture of fear in schools. i thought that was the first time that that has been accepted. how that then squares with

herjudgment that it is a positive and affirming experience, i'm very puzzled about that. it's clear to me that the reason why there is a culture of fear is because ofsted is not a functional inspection agency. nobody is arguing that schools should not be accountable. i am not arguing that there should not be a system of inspection in schools. just not this one.— system of inspection in schools. just not this one. although she did not say ofsted _ just not this one. although she did not say ofsted has _ just not this one. although she did not say ofsted has created - just not this one. although she did not say ofsted has created the - not say ofsted has created the culture of fear, she did accept there was a culture of fear around inspection, but she didn't say that is on ofsted, in fact she name to some otherfactors. is on ofsted, in fact she name to some other factors.— some other factors. what she is sa in: is some other factors. what she is saying is that — some other factors. what she is saying is that teachers - some other factors. what she is saying is that teachers and - some other factors. what she is i saying is that teachers and leaders have to deny the evidence of their own senses. she did say that ofsted's and feedback showed that leaders found it a positive and affirming experience. that isjust not something which my members tell me. and indeed, when that claim

tried to be verified byjournalists, they went to the ofsted website, the question is, the survey by which they make that claim is completely inadequate. it asks leading questions are.— inadequate. it asks leading questions are. inadequate. it asks leading ruestions are. , ., questions are. during that, there are different _ questions are. during that, there are different views _ questions are. during that, there are different views on _ questions are. during that, there are different views on this, - questions are. during that, there are different views on this, and i are different views on this, and during our interview we had an e—mail in from one parent who said, thank god for ofsted. another e—mail says, we would all love to be not be measured in the workplace, but it is not realistic, in private industry we are measured every month, nobody wants —— schools cannot duck the importance of this. but wants -- schools cannot duck the importance of this.— wants -- schools cannot duck the importance of this. but you have got to be measured _ importance of this. but you have got to be measured by _ importance of this. but you have got to be measured by a _ importance of this. but you have got to be measured by a system - importance of this. but you have got to be measured by a system and - importance of this. but you have got to be measured by a system and by| to be measured by a system and by people who know what they are doing. ofsted have changed their inspection framework five times in the last nine years. so you have got schools constantly running after a new inspection framework. the latest framework where you have got nonspecialist inspectors inspecting subjects they have never taught, phases of education they have never taught which they have no degree of

knowledge and, they are using crib sheets to go around asking early years children wear their writing years. this is an inspectorate which has lost its legitimacy.— has lost its legitimacy. lorna, before our— has lost its legitimacy. lorna, before our interview, - has lost its legitimacy. lorna, before our interview, you - has lost its legitimacy. lorna, before our interview, you told has lost its legitimacy. lorna, i before our interview, you told us what happened in scotland where there was a real culture change when inspections were carried out. when things become a political and fraught debate, there is a risk that there could be the organisation is tenured to concern, do you think there is a risk of this. i tenured to concern, do you think there is a risk of this.— there is a risk of this. i think there is a risk of this. i think there is a risk of this. i think there is a — there is a risk of this. i think there is a way _ there is a risk of this. i think there is a way that _ there is a risk of this. i think there is a way that things i there is a risk of this. i think| there is a way that things can there is a risk of this. i think - there is a way that things can be due differently. there needs to be checks, _ due differently. there needs to be checks, balances and inspections but putting _ checks, balances and inspections but putting schools under two days and today— putting schools under two days and today and _ putting schools under two days and today and having to be ready for these _ today and having to be ready for these inspectors coming in, being inspected — these inspectors coming in, being inspected by people who clearly don't _ inspected by people who clearly don't have the qualifications in the actual— don't have the qualifications in the actual departments and disciplines as well, _ actual departments and disciplines as well, i_ actual departments and disciplines as well, i think that is concerning.

i as well, i think that is concerning. i would _ as well, i think that is concerning. i would say— as well, i think that is concerning. i would say that the model which exists _ i would say that the model which exists in — i would say that the model which exists in scotland sounds to me an awful— exists in scotland sounds to me an awful lot _ exists in scotland sounds to me an awful lot better, as a parent and as awful lot better, as a parent and as a teacher~ — awful lot better, as a parent and as a teacher. but awful lot better, as a parent and as a teacher. �* . , awful lot better, as a parent and as a teacher. �* ., , , ., , ., a teacher. but as parents, and you were a governor— a teacher. but as parents, and you were a governor as _ a teacher. but as parents, and you were a governor as well, _ a teacher. but as parents, and you were a governor as well, henry, i a teacher. but as parents, and you i were a governor as well, henry, when you listen to amanda spielman, her defence was very staunch, we look at the evidence and we think we are doing the right thing and of course people sometimes don't like the judgment of them. but where do you think the balance should be struck? what was striking about it, in complex _ what was striking about it, in complex systems, _ what was striking about it, in complex systems, these - what was striking about it, in complex systems, these arel what was striking about it, in i complex systems, these are all what was striking about it, in - complex systems, these are all very difficult _ complex systems, these are all very difficult to _ complex systems, these are all very difficult to intervene _ complex systems, these are all very difficult to intervene on, _ complex systems, these are all very difficult to intervene on, you - complex systems, these are all very difficult to intervene on, you try- difficult to intervene on, you try something — difficult to intervene on, you try something and _ difficult to intervene on, you try something and it _ difficult to intervene on, you try something and it doesn't - difficult to intervene on, you try something and it doesn't work. i difficult to intervene on, you try. something and it doesn't work. it difficult to intervene on, you try- something and it doesn't work. it is whack a mole _ something and it doesn't work. whack a mole sometimes. something and it doesn't work. it is whack a mole sometimes. yeah, i something and it doesn't work. it is. whack a mole sometimes. yeah, you have to be — whack a mole sometimes. yeah, you have to be prepared _ whack a mole sometimes. yeah, you have to be prepared to _ whack a mole sometimes. yeah, you have to be prepared to evolve - whack a mole sometimes. yeah, you have to be prepared to evolve and i have to be prepared to evolve and change _ have to be prepared to evolve and change and — have to be prepared to evolve and change and i— have to be prepared to evolve and change and i accept _ have to be prepared to evolve and change and i accept mistakes - have to be prepared to evolve and change and i accept mistakes and | change and i accept mistakes and move _ change and i accept mistakes and move forward _ change and i accept mistakes and move forward. i— change and i accept mistakes and move forward. i understand - change and i accept mistakes and move forward. i understand alsol change and i accept mistakes and - move forward. i understand also that she has— move forward. i understand also that she has to _ move forward. i understand also that she has to defend _ move forward. i understand also that she has to defend her— move forward. i understand also that she has to defend her staff, - move forward. i understand also that she has to defend her staff, because| she has to defend her staff, because we have _ she has to defend her staff, because we have seen— she has to defend her staff, because we have seen that _ she has to defend her staff, because we have seen that in _ she has to defend her staff, because we have seen that in other— we have seen that in other situations— we have seen that in other situations as _ we have seen that in other situations as well, - we have seen that in other situations as well, but - we have seen that in other situations as well, but it i we have seen that in other. situations as well, but it felt a little — situations as well, but it felt a little bit — situations as well, but it felt a little bit defensive. _ situations as well, but it felt a little bit defensive. i'm - situations as well, but it felt a little bit defensive. i'm sure i situations as well, but it felt a - little bit defensive. i'm sure there must _ little bit defensive. i'm sure there must be _ little bit defensive. i'm sure there must be things— little bit defensive. i'm sure there must be things all— little bit defensive. i'm sure there must be things all the _ little bit defensive. i'm sure there must be things all the time - little bit defensive. i'm sure there must be things all the time that i little bit defensive. i'm sure there. must be things all the time that we can learn— must be things all the time that we can learn from _ must be things all the time that we can learn from how _ must be things all the time that we can learn from how inspections - must be things all the time that we can learn from how inspections go. | can learn from how inspections go. one thing — can learn from how inspections go. one thing she _ can learn from how inspections go. one thing she also _ can learn from how inspections go. one thing she also said _ can learn from how inspections go. one thing she also said was- can learn from how inspections go. one thing she also said was that i can learn from how inspections go. i one thing she also said was that the

upcoming teacher strikes would be damaging for children and she urged unions and government to sort it out. in scotland there was a resolution after a lot of disruption, rolling strikes. do you think that the uk bafflement will have to budge as well because parents —— the uk government will have to budge as well because parents cannot cope with their children being off school with the strikes? ~ , , , ., strikes? absolutely, they will have to. strikes? absolutely, they will have to- teachers _ strikes? absolutely, they will have to. teachers should _ strikes? absolutely, they will have to. teachers should be _ strikes? absolutely, they will have to. teachers should be rewarded i strikes? absolutely, they will have i to. teachers should be rewarded for the job— to. teachers should be rewarded for the job they do and we were lucky to be able _ the job they do and we were lucky to be able to— the job they do and we were lucky to be able to resolve it after a lot of toing _ be able to resolve it after a lot of toing and — be able to resolve it after a lot of toing and froing in scotland. i don't — toing and froing in scotland. i don't think any parent in the country— don't think any parent in the country could cope with that again. can you _ country could cope with that again. can you answer that? the inspector of schools said very clearly if you go on strike and continue to do so because they have already been some strikes, there are some pictures here of them, you are going to damage the prospects of children. what do you say to parents who feel that this morning who think, just sort it out and get on with it? taste sort it out and get on with it? we would love _ sort it out and get on with it? - would love to sort it out and we don't want to damage children's�*

prospect that the government is refusing to negotiate. since the last offer that the government made which was rejected by 98% by national education union members, in six states on are turnout, that is an astounding rejection of the offer. —— in six days on a 69% turnout. we have been constantly asking for government to resolve this because our members do not want to be on strike that they feel there is no alternative.— is no alternative. what is more important _ is no alternative. what is more important to — is no alternative. what is more important to your _ is no alternative. what is more important to your members, i is no alternative. what is more - important to your members, education of children after a period of real disruption, we had at length from amanda spielman how difficult it is for kids right now, and some parents will be screaming at the telly this morning saying, everybody would be liking a pay rise but don't do this to our children. the liking a pay rise but don't do this to our children.— liking a pay rise but don't do this to our children. , ., , ., to our children. the problem we have not is our to our children. the problem we have got is our schools _ to our children. the problem we have got is our schools are _ to our children. the problem we have got is our schools are running - to our children. the problem we have got is our schools are running in - got is our schools are running in crisis mode every day and parents watching this will know that their children are being routinely taught by teachers not qualified in the teaching subjects. this morning just

i read an article about two schools who are moving to a four—day week because they cannot recruit teachers. because they cannot recruit teachers-— because they cannot recruit teachers. , ,, ., teachers. taking strike action has such an impact — teachers. taking strike action has such an impact on _ teachers. taking strike action has such an impact on families, - teachers. taking strike action has such an impact on families, why i teachers. taking strike action has i such an impact on families, why are you choosing to strike the day after a bank holiday? brute you choosing to strike the day after a bank holiday?— a bank holiday? we have got six months where _ a bank holiday? we have got six months where we _ a bank holiday? we have got six months where we can _ a bank holiday? we have got six months where we can have - a bank holiday? we have got six months where we can have a i a bank holiday? we have got six i months where we can have a strike action, and it is very difficult to take strike days that we can make work. the legislation around strike action is very intense. we don't want to do this. i say now directly to the government, we will go in tomorrow. let's negotiate, so we don't have to take strike action on thursday. none of my members want to disrupt education and lose more pay when they are so inadequate paid already. when they are so inadequate paid alread . , when they are so inadequate paid alread . ~ ., , , . ., ., when they are so inadequate paid alread. ., , already. maybe we can get a response from the department _ already. maybe we can get a response from the department for _ already. maybe we can get a response from the department for education i from the department for education before the end of the programme and you can have a meeting tomorrow. henry, you are advising the government on its food strategy until recently, you care passionately about school meals but some of the warnings of where we are heading with too many giant burgers are quite alarming, why are you so

worried? brute are quite alarming, why are you so worried? ~ ., ., _ , ., worried? we have a food system at the moment _ worried? we have a food system at the moment which _ worried? we have a food system at the moment which is _ worried? we have a food system at the moment which is the _ worried? we have a food system at the moment which is the biggest i the moment which is the biggest cause _ the moment which is the biggest cause of— the moment which is the biggest cause of non—communicable - the moment which is the biggest - cause of non—communicable disease. by cause of non—communicable disease. by 2035, _ cause of non—communicable disease. by 2035, type — cause of non—communicable disease. by 2035. type two _ cause of non—communicable disease. by 2035, type two diabetes _ cause of non—communicable disease. by 2035, type two diabetes will - cause of non—communicable disease. by 2035, type two diabetes will costl by 2035, type two diabetes will cost the nhs _ by 2035, type two diabetes will cost the nhs more — by 2035, type two diabetes will cost the nhs more than _ by 2035, type two diabetes will cost the nhs more than all cancer- by 2035, type two diabetes will costj the nhs more than all cancer today. and the _ the nhs more than all cancer today. and the former _ the nhs more than all cancer today. and the former chief _ the nhs more than all cancer today. and the former chief economist - the nhs more than all cancer today. and the former chief economist in i and the former chief economist in the bank— and the former chief economist in the bank of— and the former chief economist in the bank of england _ and the former chief economist in the bank of england says - and the former chief economist in the bank of england says ill- and the former chief economist in| the bank of england says ill health is what _ the bank of england says ill health is what is — the bank of england says ill health is what is going _ the bank of england says ill health is what is going down— the bank of england says ill health is what is going down the - the bank of england says ill healthl is what is going down the economy. he said _ is what is going down the economy. he said that— is what is going down the economy. he said that in— is what is going down the economy. he said that in that _ is what is going down the economy. he said that in that seat, _ is what is going down the economy. he said that in that seat, actually! i he said that in that seat, actually! so the nhs is going to suck in money from all— so the nhs is going to suck in money from all of— so the nhs is going to suck in money from all of the — so the nhs is going to suck in money from all of the rest _ so the nhs is going to suck in money from all of the rest of _ so the nhs is going to suck in money from all of the rest of the _ from all of the rest of the government— from all of the rest of the government departmentl from all of the rest of the i government department and from all of the rest of the - government department and tax receipts— government department and tax receipts will— government department and tax receipts will go _ government department and tax receipts will go down _ government department and tax receipts will go down and - government department and tax receipts will go down and we - government department and tax| receipts will go down and we will end up— receipts will go down and we will end upjust — receipts will go down and we will end upjust sick— receipts will go down and we will end upjust sick and _ receipts will go down and we willi end upjust sick and impoverished both _ end upjust sick and impoverished both i_ end upjust sick and impoverished both i am — end upjust sick and impoverished both. i am frustrated _ end upjust sick and impoverished both. i am frustrated about - end upjust sick and impoverished both. i am frustrated about it - both. i am frustrated about it because _ both. i am frustrated about it because while _ both. i am frustrated about it because while the _ both. i am frustrated about it. because while the government both. i am frustrated about it - because while the government is doing _ because while the government is doing guite — because while the government is doing quite progressive - because while the government is doing quite progressive stuff- because while the government is doing quite progressive stuff onl because while the government is i doing quite progressive stuff on the environment, — doing quite progressive stuff on the environment, they— doing quite progressive stuff on the environment, they are _ doing quite progressive stuff on the environment, they are feeling - doing quite progressive stuff on the environment, they are feeling their| environment, they are feeling their way towards — environment, they are feeling their way towards that, _ environment, they are feeling their way towards that, on _ environment, they are feeling their way towards that, on health, - environment, they are feeling their way towards that, on health, they. way towards that, on health, they are going — way towards that, on health, they are going backwards. _ way towards that, on health, they are going backwards. boris- way towards that, on health, they. are going backwards. borisjohnson came _ are going backwards. borisjohnson came out— are going backwards. borisjohnson came out on— are going backwards. borisjohnson came out on having _ are going backwards. borisjohnson came out on having almost - are going backwards. borisjohnson came out on having almost died - are going backwards. borisjohnson. came out on having almost died from covid _ came out on having almost died from covid and _ came out on having almost died from covid and said — came out on having almost died from covid and said we _ came out on having almost died from covid and said we are _ came out on having almost died from covid and said we are going to - covid and said we are going to restrict— covid and said we are going to restrict advertising _ covid and said we are going to restrict advertising and - covid and said we are going to - restrict advertising and greatness, they have — restrict advertising and greatness, they have now— restrict advertising and greatness, they have now kicked _ restrict advertising and greatness, they have now kicked that - restrict advertising and greatness, they have now kicked that down i restrict advertising and greatness, i they have now kicked that down the road 2025~ — they have now kicked that down the road 2025~ -- — they have now kicked that down the

road 2025~ -- we _ they have now kicked that down the road 2025. —— we are _ they have now kicked that down the road 2025. —— we are going - they have now kicked that down the road 2025. —— we are going to- road 2025. —— we are going to restrict— road 2025. —— we are going to restrict advertising _ road 2025. —— we are going to restrict advertising and - road 2025. —— we are going to restrict advertising and grip i road 2025. —— we are going to. restrict advertising and grip this. we will— restrict advertising and grip this. we will ask— restrict advertising and grip this. we will ask the _ restrict advertising and grip this. we will ask the labour— restrict advertising and grip this. we will ask the labour party - restrict advertising and grip this. | we will ask the labour party what they will do about this. the sunday mail, not the same as the mail on sunday, one of the scottish tabloids, has made a lot of the running on the extraordinary saga which is going on in the snp. your front page again has another development, tell us about that. i'm interested in what you make of what seems to be an extraordinary implosion in that party that was so almighty. implosion in that party that was so almiah . , , ~ implosion in that party that was so almiah . , , ,, ., ., almighty. yes, it feels like a hand urenade almighty. yes, it feels like a hand grenade has— almighty. yes, it feels like a hand grenade has been _ almighty. yes, it feels like a hand grenade has been thrown - grenade has been thrown into holyrood, really. ourfront page today— holyrood, really. ourfront page today is— holyrood, really. ourfront page today is the latest in a long line of stories— today is the latest in a long line of stories that we have been running. _ of stories that we have been running, it is about a list of things— running, it is about a list of things that the police are interested in looking at. some of those _ interested in looking at. some of those objects are rather mundane and a bit uninteresting but an ongoing police _ a bit uninteresting but an ongoing police inquiry. we have peter morrell, _ police inquiry. we have peter morrell, the former chief executive of the _ morrell, the former chief executive of the snp, arrested.—

of the snp, arrested. nicola sturgeon's _ of the snp, arrested. nicola sturgeon's husband. - of the snp, arrested. nicola sturgeon's husband. yes, i of the snp, arrested. nicola i sturgeon's husband. yes, and of the snp, arrested. nicola - sturgeon's husband. yes, and colin beattie, who _ sturgeon's husband. yes, and colin beattie, who was _ sturgeon's husband. yes, and colin beattie, who was the _ sturgeon's husband. yes, and colin beattie, who was the treasurer, - sturgeon's husband. yes, and colin beattie, who was the treasurer, no | beattie, who was the treasurer, no longer— beattie, who was the treasurer, no longer treasurer, arrested and both released _ longer treasurer, arrested and both released pending. and longer treasurer, arrested and both released pending.— released pending. and neither of them have _ released pending. and neither of them have been _ released pending. and neither of them have been charged - released pending. and neither of them have been charged and - released pending. and neither of them have been charged and we| released pending. and neither of- them have been charged and we have to be careful because there is a live investigation. lastly on this, what do you think it really means for politics in scotland? it has such a big impact on everything because the snp has so many mps, it makes it very hard for labour to win a majority. i makes it very hard for labour to win a ma'ori . ~ makes it very hard for labour to win a ma'ori . ,, ., ,., , a ma'ority. i think labour will be able a majority. i think labour will be able to make — a majority. i think labour will be able to make inroads _ a majority. i think labour will be able to make inroads but - a majority. i think labour will be able to make inroads but they i a majority. i think labour will be i able to make inroads but they will have to _ able to make inroads but they will have to work hard to do so. if you ask me _ have to work hard to do so. if you ask me if— have to work hard to do so. if you ask me if you _ have to work hard to do so. if you ask me if you think this is the end of the _ ask me if you think this is the end of the snp, — ask me if you think this is the end of the snp, no, it is certainly not the end _ of the snp, no, it is certainly not the end for— of the snp, no, it is certainly not the end for independence. we still have half— the end for independence. we still have half and half on that. but it is an— have half and half on that. but it is an opportunity to certainly, for labour— is an opportunity to certainly, for labour to— is an opportunity to certainly, for labour to make gains. gk, is an opportunity to certainly, for labour to make gains. 0k, lorna, henry and — labour to make gains. 0k, lorna, henry and mary. _ labour to make gains. 0k, lorna, henry and mary, thank— labour to make gains. 0k, lorna, henry and mary, thank you - labour to make gains. 0k, lorna, henry and mary, thank you for i labour to make gains. 0k, lorna, i henry and mary, thank you for your insights for now. we will get back to you at the end of the programme.

we love to have you as part of our conversation, keep your e—mail coming. talking about education and ofsted has elicited more e—mails than we have had on any other subject so do keep them flowing in. we use your experiences decide what questions to ask your guest from your real word experiences. you can e—mail us or use the hashtag. sir edward davey is arriving in the studio, e—mail us or use the hashtag. sir edward davey is arriving in the studio, a e—mail us or use the hashtag. sir edward davey is arriving in the studio, a couple e—mail us or use the hashtag. sir edward davey is arriving in the studio, a couple of e—mail us or use the hashtag. sir edward davey is arriving in the studio, a couple of weeks e—mail us or use the hashtag. sir edward davey is arriving in the studio, a couple of weeks to e—mail us or use the hashtag. sir edward davey is arriving in the studio, a couple of weeks to go e—mail us or use the hashtag. sir edward davey is arriving in the studio, a couple of weeks to go till the local elections, welcome again. we were just talking about pay and teacher strikes. the teachers want above inflation pay increases. do you think they should get that? what you think they should get that? what the want you think they should get that? what they want above _ you think they should get that? what they want above all— you think they should get that? what they want above all is _ you think they should get that? brief they want above all is to get around they want above all is to get around the negotiating table with the government and i think mary is completely right on that. i have been quite alarmed by the government's unwillingness to engage in negotiations. thea;r government's unwillingness to engage in negotiations-—

in negotiations. they have made them an offer and — in negotiations. they have made them an offer and the _ in negotiations. they have made them an offer and the teachers _ in negotiations. they have made them an offer and the teachers want - in negotiations. they have made them an offer and the teachers want above i an offer and the teachers want above inflation pay rise and they said the offer is not enough. rfleet inflation pay rise and they said the offer is not enough.— offer is not enough. get round the table. personally _ offer is not enough. get round the table. personally i _ offer is not enough. get round the table. personally i think— offer is not enough. get round the table. personally i think they - offer is not enough. get round the| table. personally i think they need a fair deal. there is a shortage of teachers, particularly in specialist subjects, and when i talk to her teachers in my constituency, they are really worried about making sure they can recruit the best people to teach our children.— they can recruit the best people to teach our children. should they get above inflation _ teach our children. should they get above inflation pay _ teach our children. should they get above inflation pay rises? - teach our children. should they get above inflation pay rises? you - teach our children. should they getj above inflation pay rises? you have said specifically that pay rises for carers should get £2 more than the minimum wage per hour, way above inflation, so should teachers get way above inflation? thea;r inflation, so should teachers get way above inflation? they should get near to inflation. _ way above inflation? they should get near to inflation. near _ way above inflation? they should get near to inflation. near to _ near to inflation. near to inflation? _ near to inflation. near to inflation? i— near to inflation. near to inflation? i think- near to inflation. near to inflation? i think people | near to inflation. near to - inflation? i think people need a fair deal. if _ inflation? i think people need a fair deal. if you _ inflation? i think people need a fair deal. if you look _ inflation? i think people need a fair deal. if you look at - inflation? i think people need a fair deal. if you look at the - fair deal. if you look at the shortage of teachers which have got to come back to because that is the picture, whether that is whether in education or health service or care, you are seeing huge shortages. when you are seeing huge shortages. when you have shortages you need to give people a fair deal or you will not recruit the people that patients and parents want to see.—

recruit the people that patients and parents want to see. people want to know what you — parents want to see. people want to know what you mean _ parents want to see. people want to know what you mean by _ parents want to see. people want to know what you mean by a _ parents want to see. people want to know what you mean by a fair - parents want to see. people want to know what you mean by a fair deal, | know what you mean by a fair deal, in scotland teachers were given 8%, without the about the right amount for teachers in england? the reason wh i kee for teachers in england? the reason why i keep going _ for teachers in england? the reason why i keep going back _ for teachers in england? the reason why i keep going back to _ for teachers in england? the reason| why i keep going back to negotiation as you need to make sure you get a good deal but for the taxpayers and for our schools and our children, and now you can only do that if you get around the table. you and now you can only do that if you get around the table.— get around the table. you can only do that if you _ get around the table. you can only do that if you offer _ get around the table. you can only do that if you offer something - get around the table. you can only do that if you offer something and | do that if you offer something and avoid strikes if you actually have the kind of offer that teachers might accept. so i will ask you again, you said new inflation, with 8%, what teachers got in scotland, be the kind of figure you would think it is a good idea? ii be the kind of figure you would think it is a good idea?- be the kind of figure you would think it is a good idea? if that is the sort of _ think it is a good idea? if that is the sort of thing _ think it is a good idea? if that is the sort of thing that _ think it is a good idea? if that is the sort of thing that could - think it is a good idea? if that is the sort of thing that could be i the sort of thing that could be negotiated and get people back to school and make sure we can deal with the shortages of teachers, that sounds to me and the right sort of ballpark, but it has to come from negotiations, and the fact that the government even get round the table is the scandal. —— the fact the government will not even get round the table. if you head teacher trying to recruit staff, you will be very disappointed, and i think it is partly the chaos in this government,

not only have they had three prime ministers and for health secretaries and five chancellors, they have had sex education secretaries since the last general election, and that chaos and incompetence at the top i think is largely to blame for many of the problems we are now seeing whether it is education or health services, where we have a huge crisis. ,., ., ., crisis. the government would have case to speak _ crisis. the government would have case to speak out, _ crisis. the government would have case to speak out, oliver - crisis. the government would have case to speak out, oliver dowden i crisis. the government would have i case to speak out, oliver dowden was happy to post about how good some schools are in the country, but i want to turn to the upcoming local elections on the fourth. one of the big things over which councils have power as housing and planning, to an extent —— may the force. reputedly, the liberal democrats say nationally will need lots more houses to be built, but then locally time after time, the lib dems campaign very hard against houses in—built in their back yards. is that not double standard why we have a housing

shortage in this country? firstly, i do not shortage in this country? firstly, i do rrot accept _ shortage in this country? firstly, i do not accept your _ shortage in this country? firstly, i do not accept your premise. - shortage in this country? firstly, i do not accept your premise. i - shortage in this country? firstly, i| do not accept your premise. i have to declare an interest, my wife is building council homes, she is building council homes, she is building more affordable homes than we have seen for 40 years in my banner. ., ., ., banner. you said it of moment plan new york constituency _ banner. you said it of moment plan new york constituency that - banner. you said it of moment plan new york constituency that would i new york constituency that would build 400 homes was eye watering, that would be 400 compares to a national shortage that the housing federation assesses is more than 300,000. ., ., ., ., 300,000. you have to look at each lant b 300,000. you have to look at each plant by plant. _ 300,000. you have to look at each plant by plant. don't _ 300,000. you have to look at each plant by plant, don't you? - 300,000. you have to look at each plant by plant, don't you? we have| plant by plant, don't you? we have for building a mic in my constituency where there will be 905 homes, and they are going up now, so are you to places both in my constituency and other areas controlled by the liberal democrats where we are building lots of houses. but here's the key question, the problem i have with the government approach as they have a development led approach to housing, which has resulted in the wrong types of homes being in the wrong

places. that is what theresa may said. liberal democrats want a community led approach to housing, and all the evidence shows that results in more houses being built, that morton meet the needs of the local people, they are in the right place, they have a social infra— structure that is needed when you build more houses, and i am very proud that that is the liberal democrat policy and the approach we adopt when we are in power, so i would say the next election, if you want the right sorts of homes built in your community, vote liberal democrat, because they will listen to the community, they will make sure the local plan, with all the controls that central government put on that, and they put loads of controls, that of really unfair and undemocratic, but with all those controls, liberal democrat councils will listen to local people. we controls, liberal democrat councils will listen to local people.- will listen to local people. we will see what happens _ will listen to local people. we will see what happens in _ will listen to local people. we will see what happens in the - will listen to local people. we will| see what happens in the upcoming elections on the 4th of may. thank you very much, sir ed davey. we've just been chatting to henry about food prices. figures this week showed price rises have started to slow,

but not when it comes to the food we need to stick in the fridge. the labour party today is saying more can be done to stop food prices going up and up and up. let's talk to jonathan ashworth, the party's work and pensions spokepserson. good morning. you say that food prices must be brought down. in the last few months, we have spoken to the boss of unite union and the boss of one of unite union and the boss of one of our biggest supermarkets both saints and companies are profited and when it comes to food pricing, do you agree with that? i and when it comes to food pricing, do you agree with that?— do you agree with that? i think it is happening _ do you agree with that? i think it is happening at _ do you agree with that? i think it is happening at the _ do you agree with that? i think it is happening at the moment - do you agree with that? i think it is happening at the moment is i do you agree with that? i think it. is happening at the moment is the government asking the british people or demanding the british people pay the price for 13 years of economic failure. we have families paid more in tax, families pay more for their energy bills. but in tax, families pay more for their energy bills-— energy bills. but i'm asking you a straightforward _ energy bills. but i'm asking you a straightforward question - energy bills. but i'm asking you a straightforward question about i straightforward question about whether food companies are profiteering and making things harder for people. profiteering and making things harderfor people. let profiteering and making things harder for people.— profiteering and making things

harder for people. let me finish. the are harder for people. let me finish. they are paying _ harder for people. let me finish. they are paying more _ harder for people. let me finish. they are paying more in - harder for people. let me finish. they are paying more in their i they are paying more in their energy bills because of a failure to invest in our energy infrastructure, and the weekly shop is costing the average family about £700 extra a year now. why is our food price increase the highest in the g7, higher than other countries they it is because of the failure to invest in our energy infrastructure, because... in our energy infrastructure, because- - -— in our energy infrastructure, because. . . in our energy infrastructure, because... ., ., ., ., because... the boss of one of our bi est because... the boss of one of our biggest supermarkets _ because... the boss of one of our biggest supermarkets and - because... the boss of one of our biggest supermarkets and the - because... the boss of one of our. biggest supermarkets and the boss of one of the biggest unions in the country have said it is also because some countries are profiteering. do you agree with that?— you agree with that? there are a number of _ you agree with that? there are a number of factors, _ you agree with that? there are a number of factors, but _ you agree with that? there are a number of factors, but the - number of factors, but the ones under the government's control is let's deal with energy bills for those high energy intensive companies like food manufacturing and processing... are companies like food manufacturing and processing. . ._ companies like food manufacturing and processing... are viewers of her before the part _ and processing... are viewers of her before the part of _ and processing... are viewers of her before the part of the _ and processing... are viewers of her before the part of the problem - and processing... are viewers of her| before the part of the problem here, and you are right to outline other factors, but part of the problem here is that companies have been profiteering. do you agree with that or not? ~ , . , , or not? where there is excess profiteering. _ or not? where there is excess profiteering, ricky _

or not? where there is excess profiteering, ricky leutele - or not? where there is excess - profiteering, ricky leutele bodies should look at that. do profiteering, ricky leutele bodies should look at that.— should look at that. do you think that is? we _ should look at that. do you think that is? we have _ should look at that. do you think that is? we have not _ should look at that. do you think that is? we have not had - should look at that. do you think that is? we have not had an - should look at that. do you think- that is? we have not had an analysis to tell us what _ that is? we have not had an analysis to tell us what is _ that is? we have not had an analysis to tell us what is happening - that is? we have not had an analysis to tell us what is happening in - that is? we have not had an analysis to tell us what is happening in the i to tell us what is happening in the market, but we do know that food manufacturing companies are facing higher energy bills, the government could extend the windfall tax to support those food manufacturing companies and bring down their energy costs, which will bring down food prices. you could also deal with the labour market shortages in the food manufacturing sector, which is why i proposed significant welfare reforms to get people back to work, to deal with the traps in the benefit system, by offering people and in what is guaranteed by reforming things like the work capability assessment. the government is refusing to do that, so there are policies you can pursue to bring down the costs on british families at the moment. but the government are not doing that. but ou sa government are not doing that. but you say also that labour would cut red tape to improve food supplies in the country. how would that happen? you have to negotiate a veterinary

agreement so you can improve your brexit arrangements when it comes to agricultural products. that would actually cut red tape, it would bring down costs, a lot of the food associations have called for that. except for us to do with the eu, food inflation is actually also a massive problem in european countries, the food inflation rate for the eu as a whole was identical to the uk in march, so it is not really about us not being in the eu. we have the worst energy rates in the g7, because of our failure to invest in energy infrastructure, and renewables, in gas storage, in a cladding or in slitting our buildings. if we took those measures, we would bring inflation down overall in the united kingdom, which would bring food inflation down as well. and of course if you deal with labour market shortages in the food industry, which is what my reforms would help with would also bring down costs. we reforms would help with would also bring down costs.—

bring down costs. we have been talkin: to bring down costs. we have been talking to henry _ bring down costs. we have been talking to henry about _ bring down costs. we have been talking to henry about food - talking to henry about food advertising. the government did have big plans to do things like banning buy one get one free offers and supermarkets. would labour plan buy one get one free deals forjunk food? one get one free deals for 'unk food? . , one get one free deals for 'unk food? ., , ., ., ., food? that is not what we are preposing _ food? that is not what we are preposing at _ food? that is not what we are proposing at the _ food? that is not what we are proposing at the moment. - food? that is not what we are | proposing at the moment. but food? that is not what we are - proposing at the moment. but we know that we need to have an obesity strategy, and others from the days i lead the labour party on health matters, we have an obesity crisis in this country. many children are leaving school obese, we can see the huge pressures that is putting on the national health service in terms of diabetes... 50 the national health service in terms of diabetes. . ._ of diabetes... so why not do something — of diabetes... so why not do something like _ of diabetes... so why not do something like banning - of diabetes... so why not do | something like banning those of diabetes... so why not do - something like banning those offers? because families are struggling at the moment. they are paying more in tax under the conservatives, they are paying more on energy bills and because of the conservative stress on the economy last autumn, they are paying more for mortgages and rent. this is not the time to impose more costs on families. 50

this is not the time to impose more costs on families.— costs on families. so you might do that in future _ costs on families. so you might do that in future when _ costs on families. so you might do that in future when people - costs on families. so you might do that in future when people are - costs on families. so you might do that in future when people are not| that in future when people are not so hard up? we that in future when people are not so hard up?— that in future when people are not sohardu?~ ., ., , so hard up? we have to take measures to deal with — so hard up? we have to take measures to deal with obesity. _ so hard up? we have to take measures to deal with obesity. the _ to deal with obesity. the conservatives have cut public health budgets, so a lot of obesity services have been scaled way down. i am asking what you would do about it? we i am asking what you would do about it? . ., ., i am asking what you would do about it? ~ ., ., ., ., i am asking what you would do about it? . ., ., ., ., , ., i am asking what you would do about it? ~ ., ., ., ., , ., ., it? we are not going to plan for that. it? we are not going to plan for that- what _ it? we are not going to plan for that. what about _ it? we are not going to plan for that. what about a _ it? we are not going to plan for that. what about a ban - it? we are not going to plan for that. what about a ban on - it? we are not going to plan for that. what about a ban on junk| it? we are not going to plan for - that. what about a ban on junk food that. what about a ban on 'unk food advertising? — that. what about a ban on 'unk food advertising? we * that. what about a ban on 'unk food advertising? we have _ that. what about a ban on junk food advertising? we have looked at - that. what about a ban on junk food i advertising? we have looked at that in the past. — advertising? we have looked at that in the past. and _ advertising? we have looked at that in the past, and called _ advertising? we have looked at that in the past, and called for _ advertising? we have looked at that in the past, and called for it - advertising? we have looked at that in the past, and called for it in - in the past, and called for it in the past. the government have actually legislated for it. the government is supposed to be doing that anyway. so we will wait to see if the government will implement its own legislation, which was passed in 2021. it was introduced by matt hancock, it will be interesting to see if the government, back to it. on something else happening in 0n something else happening in the business world at the moment, is it all overfor business world at the moment, is it all over for the business world at the moment, is it all overfor the cbi, do business world at the moment, is it all over for the cbi, do you think? will labour cut its links with the cbi? ~ ., ., .

will labour cut its links with the cbi? ~ ., ., ~ ., ., cbi? we have done. we have to see whether the — cbi? we have done. we have to see whether the cbi _ cbi? we have done. we have to see whether the cbi can... _ cbi? we have done. we have to see whether the cbi can... what - cbi? we have done. we have to see whether the cbi can... what do - whether the cbi can... what do you mean by that? _ whether the cbi can... what do you mean by that? have _ whether the cbi can... what do you mean by that? have you _ whether the cbi can... what do you mean by that? have you cease - mean by that? have you cease all contact with them, absolutely? yeah, and i think the — contact with them, absolutely? yeah, and i think the government _ contact with them, absolutely? yeah, and i think the government have - contact with them, absolutely? yeah, and i think the government have as l and i think the government have as welcome as i understand it. the revelations, the stories, they have been absolutely shocking, unbelievable. —— the government have as well, as i understand it. ifeel for the people who have been victims, the cbi needs to get its house in order. [30 victims, the cbi needs to get its house in order.— house in order. do you think it should be _ house in order. do you think it should be wound _ house in order. do you think it should be wound down - house in order. do you think it should be wound down and - house in order. do you think it - should be wound down and replaced by any organisation? it is should be wound down and replaced by any organisation?— any organisation? it is for the cbi to decide how— any organisation? it is for the cbi to decide how they _ any organisation? it is for the cbi to decide how they will _ any organisation? it is for the cbi to decide how they will reform i to decide how they will reform themselves, there are clearly deep—rooted problems there and it needs a root and branch review. jonathan ashworth, thank you for joining us in the studio this morning. it's nearly 10.00am. when we started this morning we asked, after a tricky couple of months, what's really going on in our schools? the chief inspector of ofsted, amanda spielman, was in the studio defending her team's inspection

of caversham primary school. the headteacher, ruth perry, took her own life in the days after the inspection. i think the findings were secure and i think the inspection team worked with the professionalism and sensitivity that i would expect from our inspectors. have you any concerns at all about what happened during that inspection when her school went from outstanding to inadequate? from what i have seen, i don't have any reason to doubt the inspection. there are interesting in the coming hours to see what people's reaction to that is. mary bousted — nurses�* strikes until christmas? if we do not get negotiations, we will have no option, but i must emphasise we do not want to, we want to negotiate an end this dispute. i hope gillian keegan calls us today.

henry, what did you make ofjonathan ashworth? , , , ., , ., ashworth? firstly, it is worrying to see labour— ashworth? firstly, it is worrying to see labour getting _ ashworth? firstly, it is worrying to see labour getting tangled - ashworth? firstly, it is worrying to see labour getting tangled up - ashworth? firstly, it is worrying to see labour getting tangled up in l ashworth? firstly, it is worrying to see labour getting tangled up in a | see labour getting tangled up in a culture war over this. in the middle of a food crisis, two things need to happen. the government needs to increase free school meal eligibility, the lowest in england across the uk, they need to increase healthy stock that is, and supermarkets need to start adding buy one get one free offers for vegetables rather than unhealthy junk food. vegetables rather than unhealthy 'unk food. ., ., ., ., junk food. you have written a lot about that _ junk food. you have written a lot about that in _ junk food. you have written a lot about that in your _ junk food. you have written a lot about that in your new _ junk food. you have written a lot about that in your new book- about that in your new book ravenous, which is available now or shortly, i believe. iwant to ravenous, which is available now or shortly, i believe. i want to cheer everybody up after some difficult conversations by showing you some amazing pictures of what happened late last night in wrexham, the small town team that has been bought by two hollywood superstars, there they are, woman hearts across wales, and may be making other people happy, too. incredible scenes, the

beat borehamwood, the small football team in oliver dowden's constituency. have you been following this, mary? i constituency. have you been following this, mary?- constituency. have you been following this, mary? i did ask my husband late _ following this, mary? i did ask my husband late last _ following this, mary? i did ask my husband late last night _ following this, mary? i did ask my husband late last night if - husband late last night if they had won, and he was amazed because i hate football. he poured scorn on me for myjohnny come lately interest in football. it for my johnny come lately interest in football. . , for my johnny come lately interest in football. ., , , ., ., in football. it has turned you into a football fan. _ thank you to my panel, and thank you for watching, when, for the first time, we've spent most of our hour together talking about what's going on in our schools. education, rightly or wrongly, that's up to you, has not been at the top of the charts for political conversation in recent years. but as questions about ofsted persist,

and the after—effects of the pandemic reveal themselves, that's before we've even mentioned how tech is changing kids' lives or bringing new challenges for parents. i wonder if what goes on in the classroom and the staff room might rise up the political charts. live from london — this is bbc news. france starts evacuating citizens from sudan as us presidentjoe biden confirms american embassy staff and theirfamilies have also been evacuated from the country. beeping. an alarm will go off on all smartphones in the uk later today as a new emergency alert is tested. ethnic—serb parties are boycotting an election in north kosovo because authorities refuse to grant limited autonomy to kosovo serbs. sir mo farah is competing in his final marathon this morning in london — and with more than 16,000 runners taking part, it's expected to be the largest ever.