good morning, on 5 live, bbc sound, bbc two, bbc news and iplayer. it is from gambling. we want to hear your experience this morning. government is outlining its plan for new gambling rules later. expected to include checks that will kick in on gamblers who lose £1,000 in a day. or 2000 quid over 90 days. there is more and we will explore. culture secretary lucy frazer says the regulations have not kept pace with the industry and the rise of smartphones means there's now

a las vegas on every phone. you might say viva las vegas, leave us alone, city of lights and memories... but ms frazer says the new rules will be balanced and will still let people enjoy a flutter. so what's your experience? is it too easy to have a bet on your phone? 0r orgc it 0rgc it has 0r gc it has brilliant bit of tech for adults. can phone gambling be fun gambling? get in touch. look forward to talking.

here is the news from bethan holmes. the government is preparing to announce the biggest shake—up of gambling laws in nearly 20 years. it is not expected to include bans on gambling sponsorship advertising which campaigners have been calling for but could include checks on gamblers who lose more than £1000 on a date. the government has warned thousands of british nationals are still in sudan it can't guarantee further evacuation flights once the ceasefire ends later. more than 530 people have been airlifted to safety on six fights. the un has confirmed they are trying to get extended by another 72 hours. thousands of teachers in england are on strike again today in an ongoing dispute is about pay. the government says the decision on pay will now be made by an independent review body. spain are set to experience its hottest ever day for the month of april with experts predicting temperatures of up experts predicting temperatures of up to a0 degrees, 15 higher than

normal. we will talk later on about when football dreams don't come true, thatis football dreams don't come true, that is at 10 o'clock. right now between now and then let's talk about gambling on your from. your experience. it is a relatively new thing in the great span of time. the government have a set of proposals they are outlining today, they are talking tough and campaigners say it is nowhere near enough, the law has been outstripped by technology and they need to do more. the culture secretary lucy frazer has some interesting quotes, she said that gambling apps on mobile phones have for some become a trapdoor to despair and oscillation. she says you used to have to book flights to

get to las vegas, now there is a las vegas and every phone. a lot of it will be put out for consultation. that has irked some campaigners. 0ne that has irked some campaigners. one notable one is sir iain duncan smith the former conservative party leader, consultations he says are a cop out, i don't know what we have to consult on any longer. what is that we don't know about the gambling industry and their abuses? strong words. the summit, viva las vegas leave us alone, is this the march of the moral majority, they moralise is. we have coral in cheltenham. and kelly in st helens. doctor mark griffiths, are you there? distinguished professor of behavioural addiction at nottingham trent university. and ian, former direct of the break even gambling charity. kelly, what do you think

about the fact that they are seeking to do something about this and also tell us your experience of the internet and the phone, why is it difficult, and welcome, kelly. for me like many. — difficult, and welcome, kelly. for me like many. i— difficult, and welcome, kelly. fr?" me like many, i have an online addiction with online gambling, i was on bingo and quickly moved to the slots, you could do £1000 every spin, seconds, i lost £70,000 a day, i was suicidal, and the thing is it is a secret addiction and it is something you do for fun, is a secret addiction and it is something you do forfun, there is no subsistence to it like alcohol addiction, there is a lot of misunderstanding around gambling addiction. it is very dangerous for those that fall into the trap of

gambling addiction in process a visible light.— gambling addiction in process a visible liaht. ., . , ., visible light. how much did you say ou lost in visible light. how much did you say you lost in a _ visible light. how much did you say you lost in a day? _ visible light. how much did you say you lost in a day? today, _ visible light. how much did you say| you lost in a day? today, £70,000. -- today- — —— to this day. -- to this day. what was specific about the _ -- to this day. what was specific about the las — -- to this day. what was specific about the las vegas _ -- to this day. what was specific about the las vegas in _ -- to this day. what was specific about the las vegas in your - -- to this day. what was specific i about the las vegas in your pocket or on your screen, what was so seductive about it?— or on your screen, what was so seductive about it? you are lured in. if ou seductive about it? you are lured in. if you watch _ seductive about it? you are lured in. if you watch adverts _ seductive about it? you are lured in. if you watch adverts on - in. if you watch adverts on television, women are lured in with bingo, the free spends, online, they are designed to be addictive. it is sold as a leisure activity to do for fun and i crossed that invisible line very quickly and became

addicted to online slots which is the very nature of their design and spent vast amounts of money, lost friendships, time and a lot of money and was suicidal and i nearly took my life. and was suicidal and i nearly took m life. . , and was suicidal and i nearly took m life. . ' and was suicidal and i nearly took m life. ., . ., and was suicidal and i nearly took m life. . .., my life. that is awful. what was that point _ my life. that is awful. what was that point like? _ my life. that is awful. what was that point like? you _ my life. that is awful. what was that point like? you are - my life. that is awful. what was that point like? you are trapped my life. that is awful. what was i that point like? you are trapped in a world, a digital— that point like? you are trapped in a world, a digitalworld, _ that point like? you are trapped in a world, a digital world, it - that point like? you are trapped in a world, a digital world, it is - that point like? you are trapped in a world, a digital world, it isjust l a world, a digital world, it isjust numbers and digits and you lose track of reality at time. i am normally a rational and logical thinking person and i don't make rash decisions but in this cyber world and it is just numbers and digits you lose touch with reality and money because it is just numbers and money because it is just numbers and digits and itjust consumes you, you are consumed in this digital world. , , ., ., world. very well put. you enter a different well. _ world. very well put. you enter a different well. let's _ world. very well put. you enter a different well. let's go _ world. very well put. you enter a different well. let's go to - world. very well put. you enter a different well. let's go to nick. world. very well put. you enter a different well. let's go to nick in| different well. let's go to nick in chichester. we will also talk to

coral. katie russell is here as well. —— nick, good morning. was it the internet or at the phone with you? the internet or at the phone with ou? �* ., ., ~' , the internet or at the phone with ou? , you? both. it makes it so accessible. _ you? both. it makes it so accessible. no _ you? both. it makes it so accessible. no matter- you? both. it makes it so i accessible. no matter where you? both. it makes it so - accessible. no matter where you you? both. it makes it so _ accessible. no matter where you are, whether_ accessible. no matter where you are, whether at _ accessible. no matter where you are, whether at home or out socialising, it is the _ whether at home or out socialising, it is the instant hit you need when you are _ it is the instant hit you need when you are addicted, you can get it straightaway and there is no barrier to it, _ straightaway and there is no barrier to it. it_ straightaway and there is no barrier to it. itjust— straightaway and there is no barrier to it, itjust creates this isolation _ to it, itjust creates this isolation which i think it's so dangerous. isolation which i think it's so dangerou— isolation which i think it's so dangerous. kelly talked about crossin: dangerous. kelly talked about crossing the _ dangerous. kelly talked about crossing the invisible - dangerous. kelly talked about crossing the invisible line, - dangerous. kelly talked about crossing the invisible line, do| dangerous. kelly talked about. crossing the invisible line, do you understand what she meant by that when it starts to be all consuming?

totally. it seems like there's nothing _ totally. it seems like there's nothing you can do about you justify the fact— nothing you can do about you justify the fact that you would rather be on your phone — the fact that you would rather be on your phone than talking to my wife or nry— your phone than talking to my wife or my child — your phone than talking to my wife or my child and that is when you know— or my child and that is when you know you — or my child and that is when you know you are in trouble, and it is all you _ know you are in trouble, and it is all you want— know you are in trouble, and it is all you want to do, gamble. all you want to do? — all you want to do, gamble. all you want to do? yes. _ all you want to do, gamble. all you want to do? yes. you _ all you want to do, gamble. all you want to do? yes. you are _ all you want to do, gamble. all you want to do? yes. you are chasing l all you want to do, gamble. all you want to do? yes. you are chasing a win, the want to do? yes. you are chasing a win. the next— want to do? yes. you are chasing a win, the next big _ want to do? yes. you are chasing a win, the next big thing, _ want to do? yes. you are chasing a win, the next big thing, for - want to do? yes. you are chasing a win, the next big thing, for you - want to do? yes. you are chasing a win, the next big thing, for you are j win, the next big thing, for you are so consumed — win, the next big thing, for you are so consumed with trying to cover up the nroney— so consumed with trying to cover up the money you have lost in the past and just— the money you have lost in the past and just thinking it must be my turn to get— and just thinking it must be my turn to get this _ and just thinking it must be my turn to get this big win and everything will he _ to get this big win and everything will be all— to get this big win and everything will be all right then, and it is so easy, _ will be all right then, and it is so easy, i— will be all right then, and it is so easy, idont— will be all right then, and it is so easy, i don't have to go and try and find a _ easy, i don't have to go and try and find a bookies or book a flight to vegas _ find a bookies or book a flight to vegas or— find a bookies or book a flight to vegas or tell anyone where i am 9°iii9~ _ vegas or tell anyone where i am 9°iii9~ i— vegas or tell anyone where i am going. ijust had to get my phone out of— going. ijust had to get my phone out of nry— going. ijust had to get my phone out of my pocket and it is there.

you are — out of my pocket and it is there. you are hiding it from your other half? ~ you are hiding it from your other half? . ., ., ~ you are hiding it from your other half? . . ., ~ ., , . half? we have talked about it since and she said _ half? we have talked about it since and she said she _ half? we have talked about it since and she said she knew _ half? we have talked about it since and she said she knew what - half? we have talked about it since and she said she knew what i - half? we have talked about it since and she said she knew what i was l and she said she knew what i was doing _ and she said she knew what i was doing but— and she said she knew what i was doing but at the time, i think the fact you — doing but at the time, i think the fact you are — doing but at the time, i think the fact you are prioritising it over her says— fact you are prioritising it over her says a _ fact you are prioritising it over her says a lot about the grip it has on you _ her says a lot about the grip it has on ou. ., , ., , on you. how did you prioritise it over her? _ on you. how did you prioritise it over her? i _ on you. how did you prioritise it over her? i don't _ on you. how did you prioritise it over her? i don't want - on you. how did you prioritise it over her? i don't want to - on you. how did you prioritise it over her? i don't want to go - on you. how did you prioritise it| over her? i don't want to go into detail too _ over her? i don't want to go into detail too much _ over her? i don't want to go into detailtoo much but— over her? i don't want to go into detail too much but when - over her? i don't want to go into detail too much but when you i over her? i don't want to go into | detail too much but when you are over her? i don't want to go into . detail too much but when you are in bed at— detail too much but when you are in bed at night— detail too much but when you are in bed at night and your spouse is next to you. _ bed at night and your spouse is next to you. i_ bed at night and your spouse is next to you, i would choose to be on my phone _ to you, i would choose to be on my phone instead of talking with her. sort of _ phone instead of talking with her. sort of been the clandestinely way, she wouldn't see the light? exactly, dermot lee — she wouldn't see the light? exactly, dermot lee from _ she wouldn't see the light? exactly, dermot lee from light _ she wouldn't see the light? exactly, dermot lee from light and - she wouldn't see the light? exactly, dermot lee from light and rollover. dermot lee from light and rollover and maybe pretend to sleep and fake the odd _ and maybe pretend to sleep and fake the odd snort. and maybe pretend to sleep and fake the odd snort-— the odd snort. actually faking a snore. the odd snort. actually faking a

snore- wow- — the odd snort. actually faking a snore. wow. just _ the odd snort. actually faking a snore. wow. just anything - the odd snort. actually faking a snore. wow. just anything to i the odd snort. actually faking a - snore. wow. just anything to make it more realistic — snore. wow. just anything to make it more realistic i _ snore. wow. just anything to make it more realistic i guess. _ snore. wow. just anything to make it more realistici guess. that - snore. wow. just anything to make it more realistic i guess. that is - more realistici guess. that is . uite more realistici guess. that is uuite an more realistici guess. that is quite an insight. _ more realistici guess. that is quite an insight. what - more realistici guess. that is quite an insight. what about. more realistic i guess. that is - quite an insight. what about those people who don't cross the invisible line who are listening now and thinking come on, here we go again, most of us are absolutely fine, this is amazing, you can take your phone out and enter that realm and it is wonderful and exciting realm, the flutter gives me a flutter and i will never get a problem and i don't get a problem, what do you say to them? i get a problem, what do you say to them? ., �* ., ., , .,, them? i don't have a problem with --eole them? i don't have a problem with people gambling — them? i don't have a problem with people gambling if _ them? i don't have a problem with people gambling if you _ them? i don't have a problem with people gambling if you can - them? i don't have a problem with people gambling if you can afford l people gambling if you can afford it. i people gambling if you can afford it ithink— people gambling if you can afford it. i think different people have different— it. i think different people have different personalities. i am very addicted — different personalities. i am very addicted to a lot of things easily, so for— addicted to a lot of things easily, so for me — addicted to a lot of things easily, so for me it is all or nothing and that— so for me it is all or nothing and that is— so for me it is all or nothing and that isjust — so for me it is all or nothing and that isjust howl so for me it is all or nothing and

that isjust how i am wired so it is very— that isjust how i am wired so it is very dangerous for me. other people may be _ very dangerous for me. other people may be they don't have that sense of all or— may be they don't have that sense of all or nothing and they can skirt around — all or nothing and they can skirt around the _ all or nothing and they can skirt around the edge, in which case great, — around the edge, in which case great, don't spend money you don't have and _ great, don't spend money you don't have and enjoy a bit of a throw but ithink— have and enjoy a bit of a throw but i think the — have and enjoy a bit of a throw but i think the reality is and what we're — i think the reality is and what we're seeing the news all the time is people _ we're seeing the news all the time is people approach things like gambling with this idea that it won't — gambling with this idea that it won't happen to me, i can be on top of it, _ won't happen to me, i can be on top of it. just _ won't happen to me, i can be on top of it. just a — won't happen to me, i can be on top of it. just a bit — won't happen to me, i can be on top of it, just a bit of fun, and the stats — of it, just a bit of fun, and the stats tell— of it, just a bit of fun, and the stats tell a _ of it, just a bit of fun, and the stats tell a different story. i have spoken _ stats tell a different story. i have spoken to, — stats tell a different story. i have spoken to, and i go to a church and i prayed _ spoken to, and i go to a church and i prayed with— spoken to, and i go to a church and i prayed with a lot of people who that was— i prayed with a lot of people who that was their story where it was 'ust that was their story where it was just a _ that was their story where it was just a bit— that was their story where it was just a bit of— that was their story where it was just a bit of fun and ijust started. _ just a bit of fun and ijust started, because my friends were there _ started, because my friends were there or— started, because my friends were there or i — started, because my friends were there or i watched a football advert, _ there or i watched a football advert, and it wasjust a bit of fun and all— advert, and it wasjust a bit of fun and all of— advert, and it wasjust a bit of fun and all of a — advert, and it wasjust a bit of fun and all of a sudden it was a slippery— and all of a sudden it was a slippery slope and they had awful

stories— slippery slope and they had awful stories to — slippery slope and they had awful stories to tell. you slippery slope and they had awful stories to tell.— stories to tell. you have putted absolutely _ stories to tell. you have putted absolutely brilliantly _ stories to tell. you have putted absolutely brilliantly and - stories to tell. you have putted absolutely brilliantly and thank| stories to tell. you have putted - absolutely brilliantly and thank you so much for getting in touch. 22.5 million in the uk place a bet each month, 36% of those do so online, about 13.5 million people, i didn't work that out myself, it is written down. a government review in 2022 estimated no .5% of adults had a problem with gambling. that is significant. but a new gallup survey for ample where to put the figure at 2.8%. that would be about 630,000 people, katie razzall, what will they do? we people, katie razzall, what will the do? ~ ., ., ., they do? we will find out later what they do? we will find out later what the government _ they do? we will find out later what the government will _ they do? we will find out later what the government will do _ they do? we will find out later what the government will do but - they do? we will find out later what the government will do but we - the government will do but we have some sense of the direction of travel. the key things i think, i understand there will be, you might be talking about early, a mandatory

levy, which will be at the moment voluntary. gambling firms can choose whether to pay into this voluntary levy but it will be mandatory we think which means potentially 1% of their net revenue, an awful lot of money will be used in the future we hope. it is a lot, people say a year. at the moment the nhs doesn't take the money given involuntarily because they view it as an ethical to take it but nhs clinics have been more and more gambling specialist clinics opening because of the demand and the need, so that is a big thing but it might be consulted on, the amounts might be consulted on, the amounts might be consulted on, it might be watered down, who knows, people have also talked about affordability checks, perhaps if you lose £1000 in a day these affordability checks could kick in, thatis affordability checks could kick in, that is a pity quite a lot of money and there might be some earlier

checks to have a look at your finances but they are saying it could be £1000 a day or £2000 in 90 days when these checks were kicking to check you can effectively for those kinds of losses and then they are also talking about state limits will step that his online slots which are huge if you are into online betting and online casinos and also talking about consulting on where to set the limits. whether thatis where to set the limits. whether that is between two and £15 is what is being talked about, and flutter which owns paddy power and other companies have already put in since 2021 pot limit of £10 and i think thatis 2021 pot limit of £10 and i think that is probably an awareness of the direction of travel of the government.— direction of travel of the government. , ., government. some campaigners are re government. some campaigners are pretty curious — government. some campaigners are pretty curious about _ government. some campaigners are pretty curious about consultation, i pretty curious about consultation, the c word. pretty curious about consultation, the c word-— pretty curious about consultation, the c word. . ., , ., the c word. that means for them it has been kicked _ the c word. that means for them it has been kicked into _ the c word. that means for them it has been kicked into the _ the c word. that means for them it has been kicked into the long - the c word. that means for them it | has been kicked into the long press. what erg is apart from a couple of things like they had wanted an 0mbudsman to help consumers get redress, and that would need primary legislation, apart from that and

something else, nothing else they site needs to be consulted on, it could be brought into law through secondary legislation and it should be fast so they are furious about that and i think there will also be angry if there isn't something done about advertising which we don't think they will be. we about advertising which we don't think they will be.— think they will be. we are not exoecting _ think they will be. we are not exoecting that _ think they will be. we are not expecting that everyone - think they will be. we are not expecting that everyone will i think they will be. we are not - expecting that everyone will probe our expecting that everyone will probe your member _ expecting that everyone will probe your member of _ expecting that everyone will probe your member of the _ expecting that everyone will probe your member of the premier - expecting that everyone will probe i your member of the premier league expecting that everyone will probe - your member of the premier league a few weeks ago announcing they would take in three years' time gambling for names that sponsor the premier league football clubs of the front of match day shirts. that was part of match day shirts. that was part of the negotiating process that went on but if you go to a football match on but if you go to a football match on tv or in the chapman shipper anywhere else, it is all over the shirts and the banners and in the programme, the championship is sponsored by a sky bet, betting firms are everywhere and campaigners say it has normalised gambling. find say it has normalised gambling. and there is a lot — say it has normalised gambling. and there is a lot of largest for the people in power and the people we elect, a day at the races, night at

the opera, they get a lot of it. listening to that and also kelly and coral, what do you think of those proposals, nick, you go first. i didn't hear the beginning of that because — didn't hear the beginning of that because the researcher was talking to me _ because the researcher was talking to me but — because the researcher was talking to me but it sounds like it is long overdue — to me but it sounds like it is long overdue and i think it is easy to say it— overdue and i think it is easy to say it is— overdue and i think it is easy to say it is not— overdue and i think it is easy to say it is not enough, easy to say there _ say it is not enough, easy to say there is— say it is not enough, easy to say there is more you can do. i have to admit _ there is more you can do. i have to admit i _ there is more you can do. i have to admit i think— there is more you can do. i have to admit i think there is more that can be done _ admit i think there is more that can be done to, — admit i think there is more that can be done to, i— admit i think there is more that can be done to, i don't know, i am not sure _ be done to, i don't know, i am not sure the _ be done to, i don't know, i am not sure the advertisements, the advertising around football is really— advertising around football is really the big deal and a big problem. for me it does more about accessibility— problem. for me it does more about accessibility and the normalisation of it and _ accessibility and the normalisation of it and may be the adverts have something — of it and may be the adverts have something to do with that but it is more _ something to do with that but it is more about it is almost the adverts on tv— more about it is almost the adverts on tv make — more about it is almost the adverts on tv make it fun and social, year

with— on tv make it fun and social, year with your— on tv make it fun and social, year with your mates, let's go down to the bookies, let's do a group that, and it— the bookies, let's do a group that, and it is— the bookies, let's do a group that, and it is normal and it becomes fun and it is normal and it becomes fun and that— and it is normal and it becomes fun and that seems like where we really need the _ and that seems like where we really need the work done.— and that seems like where we really need the work done. kelly, what did ou think? need the work done. kelly, what did you think? you _ need the work done. kelly, what did you think? you have _ need the work done. kelly, what did you think? you have to _ need the work done. kelly, what did you think? you have to be _ need the work done. kelly, what did you think? you have to be 18 - need the work done. kelly, what did you think? you have to be 18 to - you think? you have to be 18 to aamble, you think? you have to be 18 to gamble. and — you think? you have to be 18 to gamble, and the _ you think? you have to be 18 to gamble, and the adverts - you think? you have to be 18 to gamble, and the adverts on - you think? you have to be 18 to i gamble, and the adverts on social media _ gamble, and the adverts on social media and — gamble, and the adverts on social media and tv _ gamble, and the adverts on social media and tv and _ gamble, and the adverts on social media and tv and radio— gamble, and the adverts on social media and tv and radio are - gamble, and the adverts on social media and tv and radio are everyl gamble, and the adverts on social. media and tv and radio are every day bombarding _ media and tv and radio are every day bombarding the — media and tv and radio are every day bombarding the young _ media and tv and radio are every day bombarding the young and _ media and tv and radio are every day| bombarding the young and vulnerable with catchy— bombarding the young and vulnerable with catchy theme _ bombarding the young and vulnerable with catchy theme chains _ bombarding the young and vulnerable with catchy theme chains with - bombarding the young and vulnerable with catchy theme chains with kids . with catchy theme chains with kids singing. _ with catchy theme chains with kids singing. it — with catchy theme chains with kids singing. it is— with catchy theme chains with kids singing. it isan— with catchy theme chains with kids singing, it is an adult _ with catchy theme chains with kids singing, it is an adult product - with catchy theme chains with kids singing, it is an adult product that| singing, it is an adult product that you have — singing, it is an adult product that you have two _ singing, it is an adult product that you have two participate - singing, it is an adult product that you have two participate with - singing, it is an adult product that you have two participate with so i singing, it is an adult product that. you have two participate with so why on earth _ you have two participate with so why on earth have — you have two participate with so why on earth have we _ you have two participate with so why on earth have we got— you have two participate with so why on earth have we got them - you have two participate with so why on earth have we got them on- you have two participate with so why on earth have we got them on tv . you have two participate with so whyl on earth have we got them on tv and social— on earth have we got them on tv and social media — on earth have we got them on tv and social media and _ on earth have we got them on tv and social media and radio— on earth have we got them on tv and social media and radio all— on earth have we got them on tv and social media and radio all day- on earth have we got them on tv and social media and radio all day every. social media and radio all day every day bombarding _ social media and radio all day every day bombarding people? _ social media and radio all day every day bombarding people? you - social media and radio all day every. day bombarding people? you wouldn't have cigarettes — day bombarding people? you wouldn't have cigarettes and _ day bombarding people? you wouldn't have cigarettes and alcohol— day bombarding people? you wouldn't have cigarettes and alcohol for- have cigarettes and alcohol for pornography _ have cigarettes and alcohol for pornography on _ have cigarettes and alcohol for pornography on television - have cigarettes and alcohol for- pornography on television between the hours _ pornography on television between the hours of— pornography on television between the hours of before _ pornography on television between the hours of before the _ pornography on television between the hours of before the watershedl pornography on television between i the hours of before the watershed so i the hours of before the watershed so i have _ the hours of before the watershed so i have campaigned _ the hours of before the watershed so i have campaigned since _ the hours of before the watershed so i have campaigned since 2014, - the hours of before the watershed so i have campaigned since 2014, one i the hours of before the watershed so| i have campaigned since 2014, one of the things— i have campaigned since 2014, one of the things to — i have campaigned since 2014, one of the things to have _ i have campaigned since 2014, one of the things to have is— i have campaigned since 2014, one of the things to have is then _ i have campaigned since 2014, one of the things to have is then removed i the things to have is then removed from _ the things to have is then removed from adverts — the things to have is then removed from adverts on _ the things to have is then removed from adverts on tv _ the things to have is then removed from adverts on tv before - the things to have is then removed from adverts on tv before 9pm. i

from adverts on tv before 9pm. doctor— from adverts on tv before 9pm. doctor mark— from adverts on tv before 9pm. doctor mark griffiths, _ from adverts on tv before 9pm. doctor mark griffiths, your i from adverts on tv before 9pm. i doctor mark griffiths, your gaming consultant who worked with the gaming industry to promote responsible gambling, social responsibility and so forth. what do you say to people like iain duncan smith and other campaigners, they are not best pleased by all this because they think it is kicking a lot of it into the long grass with consultation, and iain duncan smith said consultations are a copout, don't know what we have to consult on any longer, this sentence here, what is there we don't know about the gambling industry and their abuses? what do you think of abuses? i spent 36 years in the field research in gambling, i am not anti—gambling in the slightest, i am pro responsible gambling. i will be published more studies on gambling than anyone else in the uk over the last three and a half decades, we know lots about it but there are some things we don't know, the effective advertising, lots of people think increasing advertising

will lead to an increase in problem gambling, we have seen a 600% increase in gambling adverts over the last decade or so, yet the right of problem gambling is pretty much remained the same at around no .5% and i am not trying to minimise that because that is of individuals out there that have a problem. we talk a lot about technology, it is quite clear that the biggest cultural shift that has happened over the last decade or so is gambling moving out of gambling venues and into your home and workplace, through your smartphones and being able to do it on the move. that has increased accessibility and opportunity and there is something we have to grapple with. the good thing about technology is technology can actually be used to actually protect players, so now the gambling commission are making operators use responsible gambling tools like limit setting and mandatory breaks, things like personalised messaging. we are now using and i know you had

a programme on algorithms a couple of weeks ago, algorithms can now be used to actually predict which players might develop a problem. gambling companies will have to have a responsibility and take a duty of care and protecting the players, using that technology and set technology to actually minimise harm and protect players and get people to gamble responsibly. what and protect players and get people to gamble responsibly.— and protect players and get people to gamble responsibly. what are the abuses that iain _ to gamble responsibly. what are the abuses that iain duncan _ to gamble responsibly. what are the abuses that iain duncan smith i to gamble responsibly. what are the abuses that iain duncan smith is i abuses that iain duncan smith is talking about?— abuses that iain duncan smith is talking about? there are certainly com anies talking about? there are certainly companies out — talking about? there are certainly companies out there _ talking about? there are certainly companies out there that - talking about? there are certainly companies out there that are i talking about? there are certainly companies out there that are not| companies out there that are not responsible at all. they want every last penny from you. any company thatis last penny from you. any company that is regulated by the gambling commission have to follow strict rules and will be stricter after today's white paper. the problem with the internet is we're about something worldwide and let's say we clampdown in this country, you could then go to out gambling site that operates out of another country that don't follow any of the good roles

and regulations we have in this country and you will get companies who will bombard you with marketing. coming to your smartphone all the time, impulse buying, and using that technology to actually market advertise what they called the heavy spenders, sometimes called the vips, there can be abuses in terms of that. i think in the uk we get a lot of bad press about gambling but we have to realise when it comes the internet you are only as strong as your weakest link and if there are hundreds of gambling sites out there both legal and illegal not operating under british rules, those companies could be using abusive techniques to draw people in to take every last penny out of the punters. the global anule is penny out of the punters. the global angle is very — penny out of the punters. the global angle is very interesting. _ penny out of the punters. the global angle is very interesting. katie, i angle is very interesting. katie, they are game changers. it seems bizarre we haven't _ they are game changers. it seems bizarre we haven't had _ they are game changers. it seems bizarre we haven't had any - bizarre we haven't had any significant change to gambling laws since the _ significant change to gambling laws since the advent of the smartphone. that seems— since the advent of the smartphone. that seems very odd considering now

all of us _ that seems very odd considering now all of us have a casino in our pocket— all of us have a casino in our pocket effectively. i think that is clearly _ pocket effectively. i think that is clearly what the government wanted to do when it announced it and says it will— to do when it announced it and says it will do— to do when it announced it and says it will do is— to do when it announced it and says it will do is bring gambling legislation into the 215t—century and digital age, will it go far enough. _ and digital age, will it go far enough, we will have to see, and i have _ enough, we will have to see, and i have been— enough, we will have to see, and i have been speaking to someone in the last few— have been speaking to someone in the last few days whose son has become addicted _ last few days whose son has become addicted to _ last few days whose son has become addicted to gambling, since his 18th birthday, _ addicted to gambling, since his 18th birthday, he opened an online account— birthday, he opened an online account and lost a lot of money very swiftly— account and lost a lot of money very swiftly but _ account and lost a lot of money very swiftly but it does not like alcoholism or drug addiction, you can smell— alcoholism or drug addiction, you can smell alcohol or see when someone _ can smell alcohol or see when someone has taken drugs but you can gamble _ someone has taken drugs but you can gamble in— someone has taken drugs but you can gamble in your room as if you're watching — gamble in your room as if you're watching tv, you can do it everywhere. and it is difficult for people _ everywhere. and it is difficult for people to — everywhere. and it is difficult for people to spot as easily as they might— people to spot as easily as they might do— people to spot as easily as they might do alcoholism. find people to spot as easily as they might do alcoholism.— people to spot as easily as they might do alcoholism. and it will go to dan injust _ might do alcoholism. and it will go to dan injust a _ might do alcoholism. and it will go to dan in just a second. _ might do alcoholism. and it will go to dan injust a second. he -

might do alcoholism. and it will go to dan in just a second. he advises to dan injust a second. he advises on the regulation of gambling. lots of contribution from our viewers and listeners. elaine, tells her story. mine is all about online slots. years — mine is all about online slots. years ago _ mine is all about online slots. years ago i _ mine is all about online slots. years ago i did _ mine is all about online slots. years ago i did go— mine is all about online slots. years ago i did go on- mine is all about online slots. years ago i did go on it - mine is all about online slots. years ago i did go on it whenl mine is all about online slots. i years ago i did go on it when they were _ years ago i did go on it when they were advertising _ years ago i did go on it when they were advertising and _ years ago i did go on it when they were advertising and you - years ago i did go on it when they were advertising and you could i years ago i did go on it when they. were advertising and you could play bingo— were advertising and you could play bingo and _ were advertising and you could play bingo and then _ were advertising and you could play bingo and then i _ were advertising and you could play bingo and then i started _ were advertising and you could play bingo and then i started playing i bingo and then i started playing online _ bingo and then i started playing online slots _ bingo and then i started playing online slots but _ bingo and then i started playing online slots but stopped. - bingo and then i started playing online slots but stopped. aboutj bingo and then i started playing i online slots but stopped. about five years _ online slots but stopped. about five years ago _ online slots but stopped. about five years ago i— online slots but stopped. about five years ago i had _ online slots but stopped. about five years ago i had a _ online slots but stopped. about five years ago i had a big _ online slots but stopped. about five years ago i had a big win— online slots but stopped. about five years ago i had a big win on- online slots but stopped. about five years ago i had a big win on there, i years ago i had a big win on there, and then— years ago i had a big win on there, and then they _ years ago i had a big win on there, and then they said _ years ago i had a big win on there, and then they said i— years ago i had a big win on there, and then they said i couldn't - years ago i had a big win on there, and then they said i couldn't go i years ago i had a big win on there, and then they said i couldn't go onj and then they said i couldn't go on there _ and then they said i couldn't go on there a_ and then they said i couldn't go on there a lot — and then they said i couldn't go on there a lot of— and then they said i couldn't go on there. a lot of them _ and then they said i couldn't go on there. a lot of them have - and then they said i couldn't go on there. a lot of them have sister. there. a lot of them have sister sites _ there. a lot of them have sister sites a — there. a lot of them have sister sites a few— there. a lot of them have sister sites. a few years _ there. a lot of them have sister sites. a few years ago - there. a lot of them have sister sites. a few years ago they- there. a lot of them have sister. sites. a few years ago they made there. a lot of them have sister- sites. a few years ago they made it that you _ sites. a few years ago they made it that you couldn't _ sites. a few years ago they made it that you couldn't use _ sites. a few years ago they made it that you couldn't use a _ sites. a few years ago they made it that you couldn't use a credit - sites. a few years ago they made it that you couldn't use a credit card i that you couldn't use a credit card any more — that you couldn't use a credit card any more to— that you couldn't use a credit card any more to gamble. _ that you couldn't use a credit card any more to gamble. but- that you couldn't use a credit card any more to gamble. but you i that you couldn't use a credit card any more to gamble. but you can| any more to gamble. but you can withdraw— any more to gamble. but you can withdraw cash _ any more to gamble. but you can withdraw cash from _ any more to gamble. but you can withdraw cash from your - any more to gamble. but you can withdraw cash from your credit i any more to gamble. but you can. withdraw cash from your credit card and then— withdraw cash from your credit card and then go— withdraw cash from your credit card and then go on— withdraw cash from your credit card and then go on with _ withdraw cash from your credit card and then go on with your— withdraw cash from your credit card and then go on with your debit i withdraw cash from your credit card | and then go on with your debit card.

0ne and then go on with your debit card. one timem — and then go on with your debit card. one time- - -— one time... what was your big win? 30,000.130,000._ one time... what was your big win? 30,000.130,000. |_ one time. .. what was your big win? 30,000.130,000. iwas— one time... what was your big win? 30,000. 130,000. l was really - 30,000.130,000. i was really shocked — 30,000.130,000. i was really shocked i_ 30,000.130,000. i was really shocked. i was _ 30,000.130,000. i was really shocked. i was playing - 30,000.130,000. i was really shocked. i was playing £2.50 a| 30,000.130,000. l was really- shocked. i was playing £2.50 a slot. i shocked. i was playing £2.50 a slot. i actually _ shocked. i was playing £2.50 a slot. i actually won — shocked. i was playing £2.50 a slot. i actually won the _ shocked. i was playing £2.50 a slot. i actually won the jackpot. _ shocked. i was playing £2.50 a slot. i actually won the jackpot. you i shocked. i was playing £2.50 a slot. i actually won the jackpot. you get i i actually won the jackpot. you get bonuses _ i actually won the jackpot. you get bonuses in— i actually won the jackpot. you get bonuses in these _ i actually won the jackpot. you get bonuses in these slots. _ i actually won the jackpot. you get bonuses in these slots. i— i actually won the jackpot. you get bonuses in these slots. i didn't i bonuses in these slots. i didn't realise, — bonuses in these slots. i didn't realise, it— bonuses in these slots. i didn't realise, it was _ bonuses in these slots. i didn't realise, it was alice _ bonuses in these slots. i didn't realise, it was alice in - bonuses in these slots. i didn't i realise, it was alice in wonderland slot machine — realise, it was alice in wonderland slot machine and _ realise, it was alice in wonderland slot machine and it— realise, it was alice in wonderland slot machine and it flashed - realise, it was alice in wonderland slot machine and it flashed up i slot machine and it flashed up 130,000, _ slot machine and it flashed up 130,000, i_ slot machine and it flashed up 130,000, icouldn't_ slot machine and it flashed up 130,000, i couldn't believe i slot machine and it flashed up| 130,000, i couldn't believe it. slot machine and it flashed up i 130,000, i couldn't believe it. to 130,000, icouldn't believe it. to withdraw— 130,000, i couldn't believe it. to withdraw it — 130,000, i couldn't believe it. to withdraw it i _ 130,000, i couldn't believe it. to withdraw it i had _ 130,000, i couldn't believe it. to withdraw it i had to _ 130,000, i couldn't believe it. to withdraw it i had to withdraw i 130,000, i couldn't believe it. to withdraw it i had to withdraw it i 130,000, i couldn't believe it. to withdraw it i had to withdraw it inj withdraw it i had to withdraw it in £10,000 — withdraw it i had to withdraw it in £10,000 at— withdraw it i had to withdraw it in £10,000 at a _ withdraw it i had to withdraw it in £10,000 at a time. _ withdraw it i had to withdraw it in £10,000 at a time.— £10,000 at a time. what was withdrawing _ £10,000 at a time. what was withdrawing it _ £10,000 at a time. what was withdrawing it like? _

£10,000 at a time. what was withdrawing it like? it - £10,000 at a time. what was withdrawing it like? it was i withdrawing it like? it was horrible. _ withdrawing it like? it was horrible, well, _ withdrawing it like? it was horrible, well, not- withdrawing it like? it was i horrible, well, not horrible, but hard _ horrible, well, not horrible, but hard a — horrible, well, not horrible, but hard a lot— horrible, well, not horrible, but hard a lot of— horrible, well, not horrible, but hard. a lot of people _ horrible, well, not horrible, but hard. a lot of people said - horrible, well, not horrible, but hard. a lot of people said to i horrible, well, not horrible, butj hard. a lot of people said to me horrible, well, not horrible, but i hard. a lot of people said to me are you going _ hard. a lot of people said to me are you going to— hard. a lot of people said to me are you going to get— hard. a lot of people said to me are you going to get that _ hard. a lot of people said to me are you going to get that money? i- hard. a lot of people said to me are you going to get that money? i had| you going to get that money? i had to withdraw— you going to get that money? i had to withdraw it. _ you going to get that money? i had to withdraw it, they _ you going to get that money? i had to withdraw it, they paid _ you going to get that money? i had to withdraw it, they paid it - you going to get that money? i had to withdraw it, they paid it into i you going to get that money? i had to withdraw it, they paid it into myl to withdraw it, they paid it into my bank— to withdraw it, they paid it into my bank in _ to withdraw it, they paid it into my bank in £10,000— to withdraw it, they paid it into my bank in £10,000 at— to withdraw it, they paid it into my bank in £10,000 at a _ to withdraw it, they paid it into my bank in £10,000 at a time. - to withdraw it, they paid it into my. bank in £10,000 at a time. because i had been _ bank in £10,000 at a time. because i had been using — bank in £10,000 at a time. because i had been using my— bank in £10,000 at a time. because i had been using my credit— bank in £10,000 at a time. because i had been using my credit card. - bank in £10,000 at a time. because i had been using my credit card. at i had been using my credit card. at that time — had been using my credit card. at that time you _ had been using my credit card. at that time you could _ had been using my credit card. at that time you could use _ had been using my credit card. at that time you could use credit- that time you could use credit cards — that time you could use credit cards in _ that time you could use credit cards. in order— that time you could use credit cards. in order for— that time you could use credit cards. in order for it - that time you could use credit cards. in order for it to- that time you could use credit cards. in order for it to go- that time you could use creditl cards. in order for it to go into that time you could use credit- cards. in order for it to go into my bank— cards. in order for it to go into my bank there — cards. in order for it to go into my bank there was _ cards. in order for it to go into my bank there was a _ cards. in order for it to go into my bank there was a lot _ cards. in order for it to go into my bank there was a lot of _ cards. in order for it to go into my bank there was a lot of toing i cards. in order for it to go into my bank there was a lot of toing and i bank there was a lot of toing and froing _ bank there was a lot of toing and froing with — bank there was a lot of toing and froing with telephone _ bank there was a lot of toing and froing with telephone calls - bank there was a lot of toing and froing with telephone calls and i bank there was a lot of toing and i froing with telephone calls and they paid it _ froing with telephone calls and they paid it into— froing with telephone calls and they paid it into my— froing with telephone calls and they paid it into my bank— froing with telephone calls and they paid it into my bank £10,000 - froing with telephone calls and they paid it into my bank £10,000 at- froing with telephone calls and they paid it into my bank £10,000 at a i paid it into my bank £10,000 at a time _ paid it into my bank £10,000 at a time when— paid it into my bank £10,000 at a time when i_ paid it into my bank £10,000 at a time when i got— paid it into my bank £10,000 at a time. when i got the _ paid it into my bank £10,000 at a time. when i got the actual- paid it into my bank £10,000 at a time. when i got the actual totali paid it into my bank £10,000 at a| time. when i got the actual total i did contact— time. when i got the actual total i did contact my— time. when i got the actual total i did contact my bank— time. when i got the actual total i did contact my bank and - time. when i got the actual total i did contact my bank and they- time. when i got the actual total i. did contact my bank and they refused to see _ did contact my bank and they refused to see me _ did contact my bank and they refused to see me on— did contact my bank and they refused to see me on that _ did contact my bank and they refused to see me on that day— did contact my bank and they refused to see me on that day but _ did contact my bank and they refused to see me on that day but when i i to see me on that day but when i explained — to see me on that day but when i explained i— to see me on that day but when i explained i wanted _ to see me on that day but when i explained i wanted to _ to see me on that day but when i explained i wanted to sort - to see me on that day but when i explained i wanted to sort out i explained i wanted to sort out having — explained i wanted to sort out having received _ explained i wanted to sort out having received this _ explained i wanted to sort out having received this money. explained i wanted to sort out i having received this money they did agree _ having received this money they did agree to _ having received this money they did agree to see — having received this money they did agree to see me _ having received this money they did agree to see me straightaway, i agree to see me straightaway, straightaway _ agree to see me straightaway, straightaway she _ agree to see me straightaway, straightaway she put _ agree to see me straightaway, straightaway she put 20,000. agree to see me straightaway, i straightaway she put 20,000 into an isa. straightaway she put 20,000 into an isa~ i_ straightaway she put 20,000 into an isa~ i wanted — straightaway she put 20,000 into an

isa~ i wanted to— straightaway she put 20,000 into an isa. i wanted to give _ straightaway she put 20,000 into an isa. i wanted to give money- straightaway she put 20,000 into an isa. i wanted to give money to - straightaway she put 20,000 into an isa. i wanted to give money to my. isa. i wanted to give money to my friends _ isa. i wanted to give money to my friends and — isa. i wanted to give money to my friends and family— isa. i wanted to give money to my friends and family and _ isa. i wanted to give money to my friends and family and she - isa. i wanted to give money to my friends and family and she said i friends and family and she said actually, — friends and family and she said actually, it— friends and family and she said actually, it is— friends and family and she said actually, it is a _ friends and family and she said actually, it is a lot _ friends and family and she said actually, it is a lot of— friends and family and she said actually, it is a lot of money i friends and family and she said. actually, it is a lot of money but it does— actually, it is a lot of money but it does not— actually, it is a lot of money but it does not life _ actually, it is a lot of money but it does not life changing - actually, it is a lot of money but it does not life changing for i actually, it is a lot of money but| it does not life changing for you. actually, it is a lot of money but i it does not life changing for you. i am with— it does not life changing for you. i am with the — it does not life changing for you. i am with the housing _ it does not life changing for you. i am with the housing association i it does not life changing for you. i. am with the housing association and she said _ am with the housing association and she said it's— am with the housing association and she said it's not— am with the housing association and she said it's not like _ am with the housing association and she said it's not like you _ am with the housing association and she said it's not like you can- am with the housing association and she said it's not like you can go- she said it's not like you can go and buy— she said it's not like you can go and buy a — she said it's not like you can go and buy a house. _ she said it's not like you can go and buy a house. but— she said it's not like you can go and buy a house. but i- she said it's not like you can go and buy a house. but i did i she said it's not like you can go and buy a house. but i did give| and buy a house. but i did give money, — and buy a house. but i did give money, 10,000 _ and buy a house. but i did give money, 10,000 to _ and buy a house. but i did give money, 10,000 to my- and buy a house. but i did give| money, 10,000 to my brother, and buy a house. but i did give i money, 10,000 to my brother, my and buy a house. but i did give - money, 10,000 to my brother, my son has had _ money, 10,000 to my brother, my son has had 10,000, — money, 10,000 to my brother, my son has had 10,000, i_ money, 10,000 to my brother, my son has had 10,000, i cleared _ money, 10,000 to my brother, my son has had 10,000, i cleared my- money, 10,000 to my brother, my son has had 10,000, i cleared my debts, i has had 10,000, i cleared my debts, i has had 10,000, i cleared my debts, i had _ has had 10,000, i cleared my debts, i had 18,000 — has had 10,000, i cleared my debts, i had 18,000 of— has had 10,000, i cleared my debts, 1 had 18,000 of debts— has had 10,000, i cleared my debts, 1 had 18,000 of debts in— has had 10,000, i cleared my debts, i had 18,000 of debts in my- has had 10,000, i cleared my debts, i had 18,000 of debts in my credit. i had 18,000 of debts in my credit cards _ i had 18,000 of debts in my credit cards and — i had 18,000 of debts in my credit cards and overdrafts, _ i had 18,000 of debts in my credit cards and overdrafts, i— i had 18,000 of debts in my credit cards and overdrafts, i paid - i had 18,000 of debts in my credit cards and overdrafts, i paid thosel cards and overdrafts, i paid those up. cards and overdrafts, i paid those up at _ cards and overdrafts, i paid those up at first— cards and overdrafts, i paid those up. at first i— cards and overdrafts, i paid those up. at first i found _ cards and overdrafts, i paid those up. at first i found it— cards and overdrafts, i paid those up. at first i found it hard - cards and overdrafts, i paid those up. at first i found it hard to i up. at first i found it hard to spend — up. at first i found it hard to spend it _ up. at first i found it hard to spend it but _ up. at first i found it hard to spend it but i _ up. at first i found it hard to spend it but i put _ up. at first i found it hard to spend it but i put £10,000 | up. at first i found it hard toi spend it but i put £10,000 in up. at first i found it hard to i spend it but i put £10,000 in a up. at first i found it hard to - spend it but i put £10,000 in a bond but because — spend it but i put £10,000 in a bond but because i— spend it but i put £10,000 in a bond but because i started _ spend it but i put £10,000 in a bond but because i started gambling - spend it but i put £10,000 in a bond| but because i started gambling again and getting _ but because i started gambling again and getting in— but because i started gambling again and getting in more _ but because i started gambling again and getting in more debt _ but because i started gambling again and getting in more debt on - but because i started gambling again and getting in more debt on my- and getting in more debt on my credit— and getting in more debt on my credit card _ and getting in more debt on my credit card i_ and getting in more debt on my credit card i had _ and getting in more debt on my credit card i had i— and getting in more debt on my credit card i had i had _ and getting in more debt on my credit card i had i had to- and getting in more debt on my credit card i had i had to go- and getting in more debt on my| credit card i had i had to go into the bank — credit card i had i had to go into the bank they— credit card i had i had to go into the bank. they cut _ credit card i had i had to go into the bank. they cut up _ credit card i had i had to go into the bank. they cut up my- credit card i had i had to go into the bank. they cut up my credit| credit card i had i had to go into - the bank. they cut up my credit card and tet— the bank. they cut up my credit card and let me _ the bank. they cut up my credit card and let me have _ the bank. they cut up my credit card and let me have the _ the bank. they cut up my credit card and let me have the £10,000 - the bank. they cut up my credit card and let me have the £10,000 that. the bank. they cut up my credit card and let me have the £10,000 that || and let me have the £10,000 that i

realty— and let me have the £10,000 that i realty couldn't — and let me have the £10,000 that i really couldn't access. _ and let me have the £10,000 that i really couldn't access. is _ and let me have the £10,000 that i really couldn't access.— really couldn't access. as he went from putting _ really couldn't access. as he went from putting 130,000 _ really couldn't access. as he went from putting 130,000 in - really couldn't access. as he went from putting 130,000 in the - really couldn't access. as he went from putting 130,000 in the banki really couldn't access. as he went i from putting 130,000 in the bank to having your credit card cut up. yes. at first i having your credit card cut up. yes. at first | didn't — having your credit card cut up. yes. at first i didn't gamble _ having your credit card cut up. yes. at first i didn't gamble again. you i at first i didn't gamble again. you are an addict. _ at first i didn't gamble again. you are an addict. i _ at first i didn't gamble again. you are an addict. i did _ at first i didn't gamble again. you are an addict. i did start - at first i didn't gamble again. you are an addict. i did start again. it| are an addict. i did start again. it is very easy- _ are an addict. i did start again. it is very easy- they _ are an addict. i did start again. it is very easy. they make - are an addict. i did start again. it is very easy. they make you - are an addict. i did start again. it is very easy. they make you a i are an addict. i did start again. it| is very easy. they make you a vip and now— is very easy. they make you a vip and now and — is very easy. they make you a vip and now and again _ is very easy. they make you a vip and now and again you _ is very easy. they make you a vip and now and again you pick- is very easy. they make you a vip and now and again you pick a - is very easy. they make you a vip and now and again you pick a box| is very easy. they make you a vip - and now and again you pick a box and you win _ and now and again you pick a box and you win something _ and now and again you pick a box and you win something but _ and now and again you pick a box and you win something but on _ and now and again you pick a box and you win something but on some - and now and again you pick a box and you win something but on some sitesi you win something but on some sites you win something but on some sites you have _ you win something but on some sites you have to— you win something but on some sites you have to have _ you win something but on some sites you have to have £10 _ you win something but on some sites you have to have £10 before - you win something but on some sites you have to have £10 before you - you win something but on some sites you have to have £10 before you cani you have to have £10 before you can withdraw _ you have to have £10 before you can withdraw 0n — you have to have £10 before you can withdraw. on three _ you have to have £10 before you can withdraw. on three spins _ you have to have £10 before you can withdraw. on three spins you - you have to have £10 before you can withdraw. on three spins you might| withdraw. on three spins you might went £9_ withdraw. on three spins you might went £9 so— withdraw. on three spins you might went £9 so you _ withdraw. on three spins you might went £9 so you have _ withdraw. on three spins you might went £9 so you have to _ withdraw. on three spins you might went £9 so you have to put - withdraw. on three spins you might went £9 so you have to put a - withdraw. on three spins you might went £9 so you have to put a bit - withdraw. on three spins you might went £9 so you have to put a bit on| went £9 so you have to put a bit on to withdraw — went £9 so you have to put a bit on to withdraw. sorry, _ went £9 so you have to put a bit on to withdraw. sorry, i— went £9 so you have to put a bit on to withdraw. sorry, i lost _ went £9 so you have to put a bit on to withdraw. sorry, i lost my- went £9 so you have to put a bit on to withdraw. sorry, i lost my traini to withdraw. sorry, i lost my train of thought — to withdraw. sorry, i lost my train of thought-— of thought. basically you cut back onto the wheel _ of thought. basically you cut back onto the wheel and _ of thought. basically you cut back onto the wheel and after- of thought. basically you cut back onto the wheel and after having l of thought. basically you cut back i onto the wheel and after having won all that money, can you stop now, is it under control?—

it under control? yeah, well, financially — it under control? yeah, well, financially it _ it under control? yeah, well, financially it has _ it under control? yeah, well, financially it has to _ it under control? yeah, well, financially it has to be - it under control? yeah, well, | financially it has to be because it under control? yeah, well, i financially it has to be because i have _ financially it has to be because i have increased _ financially it has to be because i have increased my— financially it has to be because i have increased my credit - financially it has to be because i have increased my credit cards. have increased my credit cards again. _ have increased my credit cards again. i— have increased my credit cards again. tam _ have increased my credit cards again.ian1 now— have increased my credit cards again, i am now on _ have increased my credit cards again, i am now on a - have increased my credit cards again, i am now on a debt- have increased my credit cards. again, i am now on a debt plan. have increased my credit cards i again, i am now on a debt plan. i had to— again, i am now on a debt plan. i had to change _ again, i am now on a debt plan. i had to change nty— again, i am now on a debt plan. i had to change my bank— again, i am now on a debt plan. i had to change my bank account l had to change my bank account because — had to change my bank account because i— had to change my bank account because i had _ had to change my bank account because i had in— had to change my bank account because i had in 1900 - had to change my bank accounti because i had in 1900 overdraft. had to change my bank account. because i had in 1900 overdraft. i am because i had in1900 overdraft. i am back— because i had in1900 overdraft. i am back in— because i had in 1900 overdraft. i am back in debt _ because i had in 1900 overdraft. i am back in debt about— because i had in 1900 overdraft. i am back in debt about 12,000. i. because i had in 1900 overdraft. i- am back in debt about 12,000. i work full-time _ am back in debt about 12,000. i work full-time at _ am back in debt about 12,000. i work full-time at my — am back in debt about 12,000. i work full—time at my local— am back in debt about 12,000. i work full—time at my local hospital - am back in debt about 12,000. i work full—time at my local hospital in i full—time at my local hospital in admin — full-time at my local hospital in admin. ~ , ., full-time at my local hospital in admin. ~ full-time at my local hospital in admin. , admin. when did you last bet? yesterday _ admin. when did you last bet? yesterday but _ admin. when did you last bet? yesterday but only _ admin. when did you last bet? yesterday but only £6. - admin. when did you last bet? yesterday but only £6. i - admin. when did you last bet? yesterday but only £6. i went l admin. when did you last bet? l yesterday but only £6. i went on admin. when did you last bet? i yesterday but only £6. i went on to describe _ yesterday but only £6. i went on to describe it — yesterday but only £6. i went on to describe it and _ yesterday but only £6. i went on to describe it and just _ yesterday but only £6. i went on to describe it and just did _ yesterday but only £6. i went on to describe it and just did one. - yesterday but only £6. i went on to describe it and just did one. i- yesterday but only £6. i went on to describe it and just did one. i did i describe it and just did one. i did a horse _ describe it and just did one. i did a horse on — describe it and just did one. i did a horse on sky— describe it and just did one. i did a horse on sky bet. _ describe it and just did one. i did a horse on sky bet. a _ describe it and just did one. i did a horse on sky bet. a few- describe it and just did one. i did a horse on sky bet. a few weeks| describe it and just did one. i did i a horse on sky bet. a few weeks ago i a horse on sky bet. a few weeks ago i contacted _ a horse on sky bet. a few weeks ago i contacted one — a horse on sky bet. a few weeks ago i contacted one of— a horse on sky bet. a few weeks ago i contacted one of the _ a horse on sky bet. a few weeks ago i contacted one of the sites- a horse on sky bet. a few weeks ago i contacted one of the sites and i i contacted one of the sites and said how— i contacted one of the sites and said how come _ i contacted one of the sites and said how come i— i contacted one of the sites and said how come i don't - i contacted one of the sites and

said how come i don't get i i contacted one of the sites and| said how come i don't get these boxes _ said how come i don't get these boxes any— said how come i don't get these boxes any more? _ said how come i don't get these boxes any more? he _ said how come i don't get these boxes any more? he said - said how come i don't get these boxes any more? he said he i said how come i don't get these i boxes any more? he said he had one in november. — boxes any more? he said he had one in november. i— boxes any more? he said he had one in november, i said _ boxes any more? he said he had one in november, i said it _ boxes any more? he said he had one in november, i said it was _ boxes any more? he said he had one in november, i said it was her- in november, i said it was her birthday— in november, i said it was her birthday and _ in november, i said it was her birthday and you _ in november, i said it was her birthday and you used - in november, i said it was her birthday and you used to i in november, i said it was her birthday and you used to sendj in november, i said it was her- birthday and you used to send them to me. _ birthday and you used to send them to me. he _ birthday and you used to send them to me. he said— birthday and you used to send them to me, he said you're _ birthday and you used to send them to me, he said you're not _ birthday and you used to send them to me, he said you're not vip- birthday and you used to send them to me, he said you're not vip any. to me, he said you're not vip any more _ to me, he said you're not vip any more no— to me, he said you're not vip any more no one _ to me, he said you're not vip any more. no one told _ to me, he said you're not vip any more. no one told me _ to me, he said you're not vip any more. no one told me that! i to me, he said you're not vip any more. no one told me that! theyj to me, he said you're not vip any- more. no one told me that! they use to phone _ more. no one told me that! they use to phone you — more. no one told me that! they use to phone you know— more. no one told me that! they use to phone you know and _ more. no one told me that! they use to phone you know and again, - more. no one told me that! they use to phone you know and again, how. more. no one told me that! they usei to phone you know and again, how are you doing. _ to phone you know and again, how are you doing. why— to phone you know and again, how are you doing. why don't— to phone you know and again, how are you doing, why don't you _ to phone you know and again, how are you doing, why don't you try— to phone you know and again, how are you doing, why don't you try this i you doing, why don't you try this stot? _ you doing, why don't you try this stot? they— you doing, why don't you try this slot? they said _ you doing, why don't you try this slot? they said we _ you doing, why don't you try this slot? they said we don't - you doing, why don't you try this slot? they said we don't do i you doing, why don't you try this slot? they said we don't do that| you doing, why don't you try this . slot? they said we don't do that any more _ slot? they said we don't do that any more but_ slot? they said we don't do that any more but i— slot? they said we don't do that any more. but i haven't _ slot? they said we don't do that any more. but i haven't been _ slot? they said we don't do that any more. but i haven't been on - slot? they said we don't do that any more. but i haven't been on their. more. but i haven't been on their ages _ more. but i haven't been on their ages you — more. but i haven't been on their ages you can_ more. but i haven't been on their ages you can do— more. but i haven't been on their ages. you can do three _ more. but i haven't been on their ages. you can do three spins, - more. but i haven't been on their. ages. you can do three spins, some sites _ ages. you can do three spins, some sites it_ ages. you can do three spins, some sites it is_ ages. you can do three spins, some sites it is free — ages. you can do three spins, some sites it is free spins. _ ages. you can do three spins, some sites it is free spins. the _ ages. you can do three spins, some sites it is free spins.— sites it is free spins. the vip thin. sites it is free spins. the vip thing- dan. _ sites it is free spins. the vip thing. dan, listening - sites it is free spins. the vip thing. dan, listening to - sites it is free spins. the vip thing. dan, listening to this, advising on the radiation of gambling, focusing on cyber gambling, focusing on cyber gambling, what do you think about what we have just heard? clearly it is obviously very distressing for elaine and those around her. as with most things in life, we have to strike a balance between protecting people... it is between protecting people... it is the fair weather _ between protecting people... it is the fair weather friend thing as well. ~ ., �* ~ .,

the fair weather friend thing as well. ., �* ~ ., ., the fair weather friend thing as well. ~ ., ., can the fair weather friend thing as | well-— can i the fair weather friend thing as well. ~ ., . canlsa , well. we don't know that. can i say, these sites. — well. we don't know that. can i say, these sites. a _ well. we don't know that. can i say, these sites, a lot _ well. we don't know that. can i say, these sites, a lot of— well. we don't know that. can i say, these sites, a lot of them _ well. we don't know that. can i say, these sites, a lot of them are - well. we don't know that. can i say, these sites, a lot of them are based i these sites, a lot of them are based in gibraltar— these sites, a lot of them are based in gibraltar so— these sites, a lot of them are based in gibraltar so they _ these sites, a lot of them are based in gibraltar so they will _ these sites, a lot of them are based in gibraltar so they will not - these sites, a lot of them are based in gibraltar so they will not be - in gibraltar so they will not be governed _ in gibraltar so they will not be governed by— in gibraltar so they will not be governed by whatever - in gibraltar so they will not be governed by whatever the - in gibraltar so they will not be - governed by whatever the government says. governed by whatever the government says plus, _ governed by whatever the government says plus, a _ governed by whatever the government says. plus, a lot— governed by whatever the government says. plus, a lot of— governed by whatever the government says. plus, a lot of them _ governed by whatever the government says. plus, a lot of them have - says. plus, a lot of them have sister— says. plus, a lot of them have sister sites _ says. plus, a lot of them have sister sites. they— says. plus, a lot of them have sister sites. they know- says. plus, a lot of them have sister sites. they know that l says. plus, a lot of them have i sister sites. they know that you says. plus, a lot of them have - sister sites. they know that you had a big _ sister sites. they know that you had a big win, _ sister sites. they know that you had a big win, they— sister sites. they know that you had a big win, they know— sister sites. they know that you had a big win, they know who— sister sites. they know that you had a big win, they know who has- sister sites. they know that you had a big win, they know who has won l a big win, they know who has won what _ a big win, they know who has won what i_ a big win, they know who has won what i know— a big win, they know who has won what i know a _ a big win, they know who has won what. i know a lot— a big win, they know who has won what. i know a lot of— a big win, they know who has won what. i know a lot of it _ a big win, they know who has won what. i know a lot of it is - a big win, they know who has won what. i know a lot of it is pot - what. i know a lot of it is pot luck. — what. i know a lot of it is pot luck. who _ what. i know a lot of it is pot luck, who wins _ what. i know a lot of it is pot luck, who wins what, - what. i know a lot of it is pot luck, who wins what, but - what. i know a lot of it is poti luck, who wins what, but they what. i know a lot of it is pot - luck, who wins what, but they have sister _ luck, who wins what, but they have sister sites. — luck, who wins what, but they have sister sites, and _ luck, who wins what, but they have sister sites, and i— luck, who wins what, but they have sister sites, and i know— luck, who wins what, but they have sister sites, and i know who - luck, who wins what, but they have sister sites, and i know who is - sister sites, and i know who is doing — sister sites, and i know who is doing what _ sister sites, and i know who is doing what i— sister sites, and i know who is doing what. i get _ sister sites, and i know who is doing what. i get e—mails - sister sites, and i know who is i doing what. i get e—mails saying, why dont— doing what. i get e—mails saying, why don't you _ doing what. i get e—mails saying, why don't you have _ doing what. i get e—mails saying, why don't you have a _ doing what. i get e—mails saying, why don't you have a break, - doing what. i get e—mails saying, why don't you have a break, go . doing what. i get e—mails saying, l why don't you have a break, go and have _ why don't you have a break, go and have a _ why don't you have a break, go and have a cup— why don't you have a break, go and have a cup of— why don't you have a break, go and have a cup of tea. _ why don't you have a break, go and have a cup of tea. you _ why don't you have a break, go and have a cup of tea. you have - why don't you have a break, go and have a cup of tea. you have been . why don't you have a break, go andl have a cup of tea. you have been on it a lot _ have a cup of tea. you have been on it a lot i_ have a cup of tea. you have been on it a lot. i e—mailed _ have a cup of tea. you have been on it a lot. ie—mailed back— have a cup of tea. you have been on it a lot. i e—mailed back and - have a cup of tea. you have been on it a lot. i e—mailed back and said, i it a lot. i e—mailed back and said, why are _ it a lot. i e—mailed back and said, why are you — it a lot. i e—mailed back and said, why are you sending _ it a lot. i e—mailed back and said, why are you sending me - it a lot. i e—mailed back and said, why are you sending me this, - it a lot. i e—mailed back and said, why are you sending me this, youi why are you sending me this, you havent— why are you sending me this, you haven't seen _ why are you sending me this, you haven't seen me _ why are you sending me this, you haven't seen me on _ why are you sending me this, you haven't seen me on there - why are you sending me this, you haven't seen me on there today. i why are you sending me this, you - haven't seen me on there today. they are making _ haven't seen me on there today. they are making the — haven't seen me on there today. they are making the motion _ haven't seen me on there today. they are making the motion is _ haven't seen me on there today. they are making the motion is that- haven't seen me on there today. they are making the motion is that they. are making the motion is that they are making the motion is that they are helping — are making the motion is that they are helping people _ are making the motion is that they are helping people but _ are making the motion is that they are helping people but they- are making the motion is that they are helping people but they are . are making the motion is that they. are helping people but they are not. first of— are helping people but they are not. first of all. — are helping people but they are not. first of all. any— are helping people but they are not. first of all, any company _ are helping people but they are not. first of all, any company that - are helping people but they are not. first of all, any company that wants | first of all, any company that wants to market to uk consumers has to have a licence from the gambling commission, whether they are based in gibraltar or elsewhere. but commission, whether they are based in gibraltar or elsewhere.— in gibraltar or elsewhere. but all these free _ in gibraltar or elsewhere. but all these free spins, _ in gibraltar or elsewhere. but all

these free spins, yes, _ in gibraltar or elsewhere. but all| these free spins, yes, sometimes in gibraltar or elsewhere. but all - these free spins, yes, sometimes you win and _ these free spins, yes, sometimes you win and sometimes— these free spins, yes, sometimes you win and sometimes you _ these free spins, yes, sometimes you win and sometimes you don't - these free spins, yes, sometimes you win and sometimes you don't but - win and sometimes you don't but obviously— win and sometimes you don't but obviously it's _ win and sometimes you don't but obviously it's in _ win and sometimes you don't but obviously it's in proportion - win and sometimes you don't but obviously it's in proportion to - win and sometimes you don't but| obviously it's in proportion to how much _ obviously it's in proportion to how much you — obviously it's in proportion to how much you have _ obviously it's in proportion to how much you have put _ obviously it's in proportion to how much you have put on. _ obviously it's in proportion to how much you have put on. let’s - obviously it's in proportion to how much you have put on.— much you have put on. let's hear from dan — much you have put on. let's hear from dan for _ much you have put on. let's hear from dan for a _ much you have put on. let's hear from dan for a second. _ much you have put on. let's hear from dan for a second. i - much you have put on. let's hear from dan for a second. i don't . much you have put on. let's hear. from dan for a second. i don't know the ins and — from dan for a second. i don't know the ins and outs _ from dan for a second. i don't know the ins and outs of _ from dan for a second. i don't know the ins and outs of the _ from dan for a second. i don't know the ins and outs of the cases - from dan for a second. i don't know the ins and outs of the cases you i the ins and outs of the cases you are describing, but the gambling commission has made changes to how high—value customers are treated. i don't know, but it might be that the operator you mentioned is no longer contacting you and providing you with the treatment it formally did because its policies have changed in line with regulatory guidance. that is plausible that it might have happened. in life we have to strike a balance between protecting people and allowing them the freedom to do what they want. that will never be perfect. you can ramp up protection to prevent adverse consequences but the effect of that is to place major restrictions on consumers who don't. for example, we could put in place systems where your alcohol consumption is tracked. that might

benefit some people who struggle with alcohol but it would cause... what about the excitement to young people of the online realm?- people of the online realm? sorry, i didn't catch — people of the online realm? sorry, i didn't catch that. _ people of the online realm? sorry, i didn't catch that. the _ people of the online realm? sorry, i didn't catch that. the excitement. didn't catch that. the excitement and seductive _ didn't catch that. the excitement and seductive qualities _ didn't catch that. the excitement and seductive qualities of- didn't catch that. the excitement and seductive qualities of it - didn't catch that. the excitement and seductive qualities of it for i and seductive qualities of it for young people. and seductive qualities of it for young peeple-_ young people. younger people actually gamble _ young people. younger people actually gamble far _ young people. younger people actually gamble far less - young people. younger people actually gamble far less than l young people. younger people i actually gamble far less than they used to. the rate of gambling by children has fallen by two thirds in the last decade. gambling online by children is microscopic and is always facilitated by parents. younger adults are turning off gambling. in total they are moving some of their behaviours online, which is basically reflecting what's happening in broader retail and society. we do far more of our lives online. the idea that one participation is growing is not true because participation in gambling is falling and it is falling fastest among younger adults. there are some young people, and we do need to be careful of younger adults who are more vulnerable to lots of things in

life, including mental health issues and gambling disorder. but there is and gambling disorder. but there is a question of protection. maybe we already have certain rules that apply to under 255. but there will always be a balance and you have to respect the right of someone who turns 18 to be treated as an adult. these are difficult decisions the government has to make. thanks very much, government has to make. thanks very much. finding — government has to make. thanks very much, finding that _ government has to make. thanks very much, finding that balance _ government has to make. thanks very much, finding that balance and - much, finding that balance and stopping people crossing, as one of our callers said earlier, so powerfully, crossing at invisible line. if you're looking for support on anything we have discussed you can find details of organisations who offerjust if you go to the bbc action on website or call the number. there is more coming up.

here is the news from bethan holmes. the government is preparing to announce the biggest shake—up of gambling laws in nearly 20 years. it's not expected to include a ban on gambling sponsorship or advertising that campaigners have been calling for, but could include checks on gamblers who lose more than £1000 in a day. the foreign secretary james cleverly is urging people wanting to join the evacuation of british nationals from sudan to leave now as the uk doesn't know what will happen when the ceasefire ends. the three—day truce has allowed planes to take off from an airbase outside the capital of khartoum taking people to cyprus. more than 500 people have been rescued so far. thousands of teachers in england are on strike again today in an ongoing dispute over pay. it is the fourth walk—out this year and more are planned for next week. research carried out for

the bbc shows the impact the rising cost of living has had on a home—made lunch. it suggests the overall cost of making a cheese sandwich has written more by one third in the past year. those are the news headlines and now katie smith has the sport. liverpool defender trent and arnold has told bbc radio 5 live he would rather see arsenal win the premier league title over manchester city this season to mix things up. he also says his liverpool side need a few tweaks to get back to their best. they beat west ham last night to move to sixth in the premier league table. it comes as he launches the after academy, an initiative focused on providing career opportunities to former academy footballers who don't make it to the big time. manchester city have taken control of the title race with a stunning 4—1 win over leaders arsenal last night to leave them just two points behind the gunners with two games in hand. the reality is we are still behind, says boss pep guardiola. when it is in our hands we have to use it. they have

fulham on sunday next. nottingham forest leapfrogged leicester city with a win over brighton to move out of the bottom three. chelsea suffered a fifth defeat in a row. in the world snooker championship the semifinals get under way later with the 20—year—old debutant si taking on luca brecel, who knocked out ronnie 0'sullivan. at ten o'clock i will tell you what

we will talk about later. football dreams, when they don't come true. we were talking about this because... liverpool's trent alexander arnold has been talking to 5 live this morning about an initiative he's launching to help academy players who don't make a career in the game. those who don't cross the line into dreams, success and superstardom. not necessarily superstardom but just making a living out of the game even. he has launched the scheme to help academy players who don't make a career in the game. he has said some really interesting things this morning in the interview. he said each of us thought we would be the special one. he said the lesson you want to think about is plan b. and now more than ever they are taking players at a younger and younger age and forging them into hopefully the superstars of the future. is it marlon brando in on the waterfront who said, i could have been a

contender. it is a bit of that. the lower leagues and non—league football, the road to those places are paved with dreams. sometimes injuries stops it all. you look at the programmes in some of the lower league games and see a littering of under 15 internationals. but we want to hear about the dreams you had and when the dreams didn't come true when the dreams didn't come true when it comes to football because it is a brutal business. that's coming up. if you were in that situation and you had those dreams and thought it would be where you ended up, send us photographs if you have any around from back in the day. gambling, julia in gillingham,

barbara in rushden, nathan in anglesey, and ian semel, a former lecturer. thank you for coming along. a proposed legislation, a white paper out this morning talking about giving up with the technology of the las vegas in your pocket. julia, good morning. you have been through hell. what happened? sig. through hell. what happened? 5 years ago, nearly, iwas through hell. what happened? 5 years ago, nearly, i was in hospital having more treatment for bowel cancer. i nearly died and then had two operations in 48 hours. before i went in hospital my son asked me for some money. my father said, you are not going to give it to him. i said, i can't, not going to give it to him. i said, ican't, i not going to give it to him. i said, i can't, i had to give up work because of cancer. i said, i can't, i won't do that. anyway, i went into hospital and was in there nearly a

month but in the meantime my father died suddenly while i was there and i didn't know for a week that he had died because i was so poorly. in the meantime, all my family knew, especially my son. as soon as i could talk, he kept asking me for money. i kept saying, why do you need money? he said, i have got behind on bills, this, that and the other. first of all it was 10,000. i said, i can't give any more. i said i have to sort out my dad, his house and everything. he said, you'll get money from doubt�*s will. i said, of course i will. i sold the house because it was split between me and my sister and brother. anyway, he kept on and on, and in the end, when

it finally came through, he kept on saying he would throw himself in front of a train, and his partner had a little baby girl and they were expecting another one. it got so much for me i couldn't cope. i was grieving for my dad, i was ill, and he had over £60,000 that he promised to pay me back because my mortgage was going to be in fruition last year, which i had to pay. and of course, i couldn't pay it. so i had to go into negative equity, really, and get money out of my house. he gambled it? yes, _ and get money out of my house. he gambled it? yes, he _ and get money out of my house. he gambled it? yes, he gambled i and get money out of my house. he gambled it? yes, he gambled it, i l gambled it? yes, he gambled it, i found out in _ gambled it? yes, he gambled it, i found out in the _ gambled it? yes, he gambled it, i found out in the end. _ gambled it? yes, he gambled it, i found out in the end. i _ gambled it? yes, he gambled it, i found out in the end. i wondered l found out in the end. i wondered what all these bills were and then he came clean. and it wasn't only that, he owed money to the taxman, he owed money to a next partner, friends. i settled all that for him and now i'm the one in my old age

struggling with this mortgage debt. are you getting help and advice at the moment? ihla. are you getting help and advice at the moment?— are you getting help and advice at the moment? ., �* ., , , ., �* the moment? no. i'm a pensioner, i'm in my house. — the moment? no. i'm a pensioner, i'm in my house. and _ the moment? no. i'm a pensioner, i'm in my house. and m — the moment? no. i'm a pensioner, i'm in my house, and i'm paying... - the moment? no. i'm a pensioner, i'm in my house, and i'm paying... he i in my house, and i'm paying... he thinks it's fine, he is giving me money every month for the interest but i'm stuck. i can't afford to sell the house and buy a bungalow that i desperately need, to have one level living, you know? i that i desperately need, to have one level living, you know?— level living, you know? i think what i want to level living, you know? i think what i want to do — level living, you know? i think what lwant to do is _ level living, you know? i think what i want to do is get _ level living, you know? i think what i want to do is get you _ level living, you know? i think what i want to do is get you to _ level living, you know? i think what i want to do is get you to speak i level living, you know? i think what i want to do is get you to speak to i i want to do is get you to speak to somebody off air after the programme somebody off air after the programme so if i can pass on your number would that be ok, somebody to give some advice?— some advice? yeah. i said to jason, i told him. — some advice? yeah. i said to jason, i told him. i — some advice? yeah. i said to jason, i told him, i need _ some advice? yeah. i said to jason, i told him, i need to _ some advice? yeah. i said to jason, i told him, i need to do _ some advice? yeah. i said to jason, i told him, i need to do something, | i told him, i need to do something, take you to court or something. he said, they will only make me pay what i can take. he seems to know all the ins and outs but it's just

me now carrying his debt if i know what you mean. i do me now carrying his debt if i know what you mean.— me now carrying his debt if i know what you mean. i do know what you mean. what you mean. i do know what you mean- what — what you mean. i do know what you mean. what are _ what you mean. i do know what you mean. what are gambling _ what you mean. i do know what you mean. what are gambling on i what you mean. i do know what you mean. what are gambling on the i what you mean. i do know what you i mean. what are gambling on the phone and internet?— and internet? yes, online. when she in bed. all through _ and internet? yes, online. when she in bed. all through the _ and internet? yes, online. when she in bed. all through the night. - and internet? yes, online. when she in bed. all through the night. you i in bed. all through the night. you have been — in bed. all through the night. you have been through an utterly dreadful situation and my heart goes out to you. what do you think about the fact they are trying to do something about this? thank goodness- — something about this? thank goodness. it _ something about this? thank goodness. it can't _ something about this? thank goodness. it can't come i something about this? thank goodness. it can't come a i something about this? thank- goodness. it can't come a moment too soon. he locked up loads of credit cards and just after that they brought it in you couldn't use credit cards but it was six months too late for me. it is definitely a mug's game. i have never gambled in my life, i am so careful with

everything. my life, i am so careful with everything-— my life, i am so careful with everything. and now this has happened- — everything. and now this has happened. yes. _ everything. and now this has happened. yes. it's - everything. and now this has happened. yes. it's with i everything. and now this has happened. yes. it's with me | everything. and now this has i happened. yes. it's with me every da , happened. yes. it's with me every day. every — happened. yes. it's with me every day, every minute, _ happened. yes. it's with me every day, every minute, i— happened. yes. it's with me every day, every minute, i wake - happened. yes. it's with me every day, every minute, i wake up. i happened. yes. it's with me every| day, every minute, i wake up. this is not howl day, every minute, i wake up. this is not how i should have had my old age. is not how i should have had my old are. . is not how i should have had my old are, ., ,, is not how i should have had my old are. . ,, ., ., is not how i should have had my old are. ., ,, ., ., ., . is not how i should have had my old ae. ., ., ., ., ., . ., age. ian semel, a former addict and director of the _ age. ian semel, a former addict and director of the break _ age. ian semel, a former addict and director of the break even _ age. ian semel, a former addict and director of the break even gambling | director of the break even gambling charity. can you speak to julia? director of the break even gambling charity. can you speak tojulia? she is a victim here. it’s charity. can you speak to julia? she is a victim here.— is a victim here. it's really sad to hear your — is a victim here. it's really sad to hear your story. _ is a victim here. it's really sad to hear your story, julia, _ is a victim here. it's really sad to hear your story, julia, but - is a victim here. it's really sad to hear your story, julia, but one i hear your story, julia, but one thing — hear your story, julia, but one thing you _ hear your story, julia, but one thing you need to do, to look after yourself— thing you need to do, to look after yourself and your mental health, you need to— yourself and your mental health, you need to get— yourself and your mental health, you need to get hold of people like us, we are _ need to get hold of people like us, we are part — need to get hold of people like us, we are part of the national gambling support— we are part of the national gambling support network. we will work with you, support network. we will work with you. we _ support network. we will work with you, we will help and support you. you just— you, we will help and support you. you just have to make the call and we will— you just have to make the call and we will find — you just have to make the call and we will find you a local provider. i'm we will find you a local provider. i'm in— we will find you a local provider. i'm in the — we will find you a local provider. i'm in the east of england, and there— i'm in the east of england, and there is— i'm in the east of england, and there is the south—east will stop i'm there is the south—east will stop i'm not— there is the south—east will stop i'm not sure where you're from but you need _ i'm not sure where you're from but you need to — i'm not sure where you're from but you need to speak to us. you need to

rin- you need to speak to us. you need to ring the _ you need to speak to us. you need to ring the national helpline. you will .et ring the national helpline. you will get answers straightaway and you get access _ get answers straightaway and you get access to _ get answers straightaway and you get access to help and support. you can't _ access to help and support. you can't do — access to help and support. you can't do this on your own. we will ass the can't do this on your own. we will pass the number _ can't do this on your own. we will pass the number on _ can't do this on your own. we will pass the number on to _ can't do this on your own. we will pass the number on to you - can't do this on your own. we will pass the number on to you off i can't do this on your own. we will| pass the number on to you off the air, julia. the collateral damage, that's what this is, ian. it air, julia. the collateral damage, that's what this is, ian.— that's what this is, ian. it is. and there is a — that's what this is, ian. it is. and there is a big _ that's what this is, ian. it is. and there is a big difference - that's what this is, ian. it is. and there is a big difference with i that's what this is, ian. it is. and | there is a big difference with what is going _ there is a big difference with what is going on there and what used to id is going on there and what used to go on _ is going on there and what used to go on. when i had a problem with gambling — go on. when i had a problem with gambling i— go on. when i had a problem with gambling i had to find it. it finds you now. — gambling i had to find it. it finds you now. it— gambling i had to find it. it finds you now, it is 24/7, it's in your face, _ you now, it is 24/7, it's in your face, it— you now, it is 24/7, it's in your face, it is— you now, it is 24/7, it's in your face, it is advertised everywhere. i welcome _ face, it is advertised everywhere. i welcome what's going on now. we need to have _ welcome what's going on now. we need to have changes and everything that will minimise gambling —related harm and anything that will work towards the prevention of the escalation of harms, _ the prevention of the escalation of harms, whatever it is, it is better than _ harms, whatever it is, it is better than nothing. it is a start, we need to protect — than nothing. it is a start, we need to protect vulnerable people and make _ to protect vulnerable people and make sure these stories we hear

everyday — make sure these stories we hear everyday can't keep happening. people — everyday can't keep happening. people get means checked if you have a credit _ people get means checked if you have a credit card. this is the only place — a credit card. this is the only place in _ a credit card. this is the only place in the world where you can open _ place in the world where you can open an— place in the world where you can open an online account and lose your money. _ open an online account and lose your money, someone else's money and money— money, someone else's money and money that— money, someone else's money and money that you haven't even stolen or got _ money that you haven't even stolen or got yet~ — money that you haven't even stolen or got yet. something needs change and now _ or got yet. something needs change and now. ., , ., or got yet. something needs change and now. .,, ., , ., or got yet. something needs change and now. ., , ., ' ;;:: ., and now. down was on before 9:30am. you were with — and now. down was on before 9:30am. you were with us _ and now. down was on before 9:30am. you were with us and _ and now. down was on before 9:30am. you were with us and you _ and now. down was on before 9:30am. you were with us and you heard - and now. down was on before 9:30am. you were with us and you heard him, i you were with us and you heard him, and he advises on the regulation of gambling with a focus on safer gambling. he made the point that fewer young people are gambling at the moment. it is dreadful when it happens, and it is appalling for people, for the family, but it is relatively rare when somebody gets so... ihla relatively rare when somebody gets so... ., , , , . relatively rare when somebody gets so... ., , ,,. , ., relatively rare when somebody gets so... ., , , ., ., so... no disrespect, but i am not sure where _ so... no disrespect, but i am not sure where those _ so... no disrespect, but i am not sure where those stats _ so... no disrespect, but i am not sure where those stats and i so... no disrespect, but i am not. sure where those stats and figures are coming — sure where those stats and figures are coming from but i will take dan's — are coming from but i will take dan's word for it. but i know that since _ dan's word for it. but i know that since the — dan's word for it. but i know that since the pandemic in the east and south-east— since the pandemic in the east and south—east of england, since the

pandemic— south—east of england, since the pandemic people are online more often. _ pandemic people are online more often. and — pandemic people are online more often, and there is a big crossover with gaming and gambling. we have seen many— with gaming and gambling. we have seen many people with stories like we are _ seen many people with stories like we are hearing this morning so i am not sure _ we are hearing this morning so i am not sure what the reduction is but we're _ not sure what the reduction is but we're still— not sure what the reduction is but we're still talking about hundreds of thousands of people. the big difference with drugs and alcohol, people _ difference with drugs and alcohol, people who present with problems, the facts _ people who present with problems, the facts are that around 15% of those _ the facts are that around 15% of those people with treatment. for those _ those people with treatment. for those suffering from gambling related — those suffering from gambling related harm, only 2—3% present with some _ related harm, only 2—3% present with some kind _ related harm, only 2—3% present with some kind of— related harm, only 2—3% present with some kind of treatment. we need to close _ some kind of treatment. we need to close that _ some kind of treatment. we need to close that gap. some kind of treatment. we need to close that gap-— close that gap. they are trying to strike the balance. _ close that gap. they are trying to strike the balance. lucy - close that gap. they are trying to strike the balance. lucy frazer, l close that gap. they are trying to l strike the balance. lucy frazer, the secretary of state for culture, says they don't want to suck the fun out of it for people who gamble but don't get a problem. julia, our hearts go out to you. there are lots of texts of support and we will give you that number to have a chat. thank you. i feel so ashamed.

you that number to have a chat. thank you. ifeel so ashamed. it is thank you. i feel so ashamed. it is nothin: thank you. i feel so ashamed. it is nothing to — thank you. i feel so ashamed. it is nothing to do _ thank you. i feel so ashamed. it is nothing to do with you, and you know that. thank you, julia, and take care of yourself. keep in touch off the air and we will give you the numbers and necessary support. barbara in rushden, hello. hello. how are you? _ barbara in rushden, hello. hello. how are you? i'm _ barbara in rushden, hello. hello. how are you? i'm fine. _ barbara in rushden, hello. hello. how are you? i'm fine. it's - barbara in rushden, hello. hello. how are you? i'm fine. it's really| how are you? i'm fine. it's really disturbing _ how are you? i'm fine. it's really disturbing when _ how are you? i'm fine. it's really disturbing when you _ how are you? i'm fine. it's really disturbing when you hear- how are you? i'm fine. it's really disturbing when you hear about i disturbing when you hear about people so in the grip of it. or hearing from julia there, her son was in the grip of it and it has had a devastating effect on her life. what has it done to your life? i am what has it done to your life? i am nowhere near _ what has it done to your life? i am nowhere near in _ what has it done to your life? i am nowhere near in that _ what has it done to your life? i —n nowhere near in that situation, but i just, nowhere near in that situation, but ijust, i wanted to say that i have been betting on the horses more than 25 years with absolutely no problems whatsoever. small stakes, going to

the races. as i say, no problems. no massive losses, no big bets. and then during the pandemic i opened up an online account and i'm afraid it's the slots that are so addictive. so addictive. can you distill that? — addictive. so addictive. can you distill that? i _ addictive. so addictive. can you distill that? i think _ addictive. so addictive. can you distill that? i think what - addictive. so addictive. can you i distill that? i think what happened was, iwas distill that? i think what happened was, i was betting _ distill that? i think what happened was, i was betting on _ distill that? i think what happened was, i was betting on the - distill that? i think what happened was, i was betting on the horses l was, i was betting on the horses online and then they offer, they give you a special offer. i think it was an online scratch card to begin with. and then i won something on there and it takes you to the slots. 0nce there and it takes you to the slots. once i was in, i was hooked. it's just so addictive.

once i was in, iwas hooked. it's just so addictive.— just so addictive. why is it so addictive? — just so addictive. why is it so addictive? how _ just so addictive. why is it so addictive? how did _ just so addictive. why is it so addictive? how did it - just so addictive. why is it so addictive? how did it hook i just so addictive. why is it so i addictive? how did it hook you? just so addictive. why is it so - addictive? how did it hook you? you 'ust think addictive? how did it hook you? gm. just think that the next spin will be the big win. at the top of each game you have got how much you could win, hundreds of thousands of pounds. that's the major one. even the major, 50,000, orwin pounds. that's the major one. even the major, 50,000, or win up to 500 times your stake. a few weeks ago i was spinning away and i accidentally, right next to the spin button was the maximum bet spin and i accidentally hit it. it was £40. fortunately for me it was only £40, although that is a lot of money for me. i would although that is a lot of money for me. iwould never although that is a lot of money for me. i would never normally spin that much at a time. the strange thing

was, i panicked and then i thought i had won £450 on that spin. i thought, wow, thank goodness. and you wonder... that was a mistake. these things are supposed to be random. ., ., , random. you wonder if there is some--- _ random. you wonder if there is some--- it's — random. you wonder if there is some... it's rigged. _ random. you wonder if there is some... it's rigged. if- random. you wonder if there is some... it's rigged. if there i random. you wonder if there is some... it's rigged. if there is| some... it's rigged. if there is some... it's rigged. if there is some intent— some... it's rigged. if there is some intent behind _ some... it's rigged. if there is some intent behind it, - some... it's rigged. if there is some intent behind it, yeah? | some... it's rigged. if there is i some intent behind it, yeah? are some... it's rigged. if there is - some intent behind it, yeah? are you there still? i think we have just lost the line. let's bring paul in. ian, can you listen to paul? hello, paul. ian, can you listen to paul? hello, paul . ian, can you listen to paul? hello, paul- yours _ ian, can you listen to paul? hello, paul.- yours is _ ian, can you listen to paul? hello, paul.- yours is an _ ian, can you listen to paul? hello, paul.- yours is an important| paul. hello. yours is an important voice to hear. _ paul. hello. yours is an important voice to hear. i _ paul. hello. yours is an important voice to hear. i say _ paul. hello. yours is an important voice to hear. i say that _ paul. hello. yours is an important voice to hear. i say that at - paul. hello. yours is an important voice to hear. i say that at the i voice to hear. i say that at the outset. lots of people love this. what do you think about the fact they will legislate? it what do you think about the fact they will legislate?— what do you think about the fact they will legislate? it depends what they will legislate? it depends what the will they will legislate? it depends what they will do- _ they will legislate? it depends what they will do. we _ they will legislate? it depends what they will do. we need _ they will legislate? it depends what they will do. we need to _ they will legislate? it depends what they will do. we need to find i they will legislate? it depends what they will do. we need to find out i they will do. we need to find out first. i am a former betting shop

manager so i appreciate the stories people have been telling this morning. i have seen the desperation and despair in people who are totally addicted to gambling. but from my point of view, i am part of a community of match betters and we make money from bookmakers every day, if you can believe that. we thrive on the offers they give out in free bets and what we call reloads. i make a separate living, like a side hustle from bookmakers�* free offers. i like a side hustle from bookmakers' free offers. ., �* , ., free offers. i don't understand, because l _ free offers. i don't understand, because i don't _ free offers. i don't understand, because i don't understand i free offers. i don't understand, because i don't understand this because i don�*t understand this world! to because i don't understand this world! ., , ., , ., because i don't understand this world! ., ., ., world! to explain quickly, if one of the bookmakers _ world! to explain quickly, if one of the bookmakers says _ world! to explain quickly, if one of the bookmakers says to _ world! to explain quickly, if one of the bookmakers says to bet - world! to explain quickly, if one of the bookmakers says to bet £10 i world! to explain quickly, if one of l the bookmakers says to bet £10 with us and we will give you a free £10 bet. so you bet your £10 on united or city or whoever and you lay that off for a small loss. as well as

bookmakers there are exchanges so you can effectively cancel out your bet so you haven�*t lost anything or you might have lost 20 p. then you have a free bet to play with where you are not using your stake and you also lay that off and can make a profit of £7, £8 each time. it is completely risk—free. you wouldn�*t even call it gambling. it is risk—free. it is called matched betting and there is a massive community with thousands of people making money from this everyday. ian, i�*m sure you know about this. what we are talking about here is people _ what we are talking about here is people with discipline and control. fvery _ people with discipline and control. every system, every walk of life, people _ every system, every walk of life, people will always look at different angles _ people will always look at different angles will stop it sounds like they have found an angle here. it sounds successful. — have found an angle here. it sounds successful. i— have found an angle here. it sounds successful, i won't dispute that but we don't _ successful, i won't dispute that but we don't see people doing that. you have to _ we don't see people doing that. you have to be _ we don't see people doing that. you have to be very clever, you have to be able _ have to be very clever, you have to be able to — have to be very clever, you have to be able to work at it all day. a lot of people — be able to work at it all day. a lot of people don't have that time. | of people don't have that time. i understand that completely. you can

spend half an hour or one hour per day doing this. i completely agree, the advertising side of things is abominable. i�*m signed up to 30 or 40 different bookmakers that i regularly make money from with this. one of the harms of gambling... go on. g . one of the harms of gambling... go on. g , ., , ., on. just to finish, the thing that worries me _ on. just to finish, the thing that worries me is, _ on. just to finish, the thing that worries me is, i _ on. just to finish, the thing that worries me is, i get _ on. just to finish, the thing that worries me is, i get bombarded j on. just to finish, the thing that i worries me is, i get bombarded with e—mails and text messages every day. between 50 and 100 e—mails and text messages every day is saying, come and bet with us, have this and that. i get that, there is something extremely wrong there, that they can do this to people and i agree with that completely.— that completely. being a betting shop manager— that completely. being a betting shop manager you _ that completely. being a betting shop manager you must - that completely. being a betting shop manager you must have i that completely. being a betting i shop manager you must have seen people with real problems. absolutely desperate, yes. what absolutely desperate, yes. what could ou absolutely desperate, yes. what could you do _ absolutely desperate, yes. what could you do at _ absolutely desperate, yes. what could you do at the _ absolutely desperate, yes. what could you do at the time? i absolutely desperate, yes. what could you do at the time? there| absolutely desperate, yes. what i could you do at the time? there was nothin: we could you do at the time? there was nothing we could _ could you do at the time? there was nothing we could do. _ could you do at the time? there was nothing we could do. i'm _ could you do at the time? there was nothing we could do. i'm talking i nothing we could do. i�*m talking about 15 years ago. we just took their money, that was it. share

about 15 years ago. we just took their money, that was it. are you not tempted _ their money, that was it. are you not tempted to — their money, that was it. are you not tempted to say, _ their money, that was it. are you not tempted to say, look, - their money, that was it. are you not tempted to say, look, mate, | their money, that was it. are you i not tempted to say, look, mate, you were in yesterday and the day before, you are losing a lot, give it a break? i before, you are losing a lot, give it a break?— it a break? i did, i got very friendly — it a break? i did, i got very friendly with _ it a break? i did, i got very friendly with a _ it a break? i did, i got very friendly with a scottish i it a break? i did, i got very friendly with a scottish guy it a break? i did, i got very i friendly with a scottish guy who told me it wasn�*t about the money for him after all. it was the thrill. and then the discussed with himself when he lost.— thrill. and then the discussed with himself when he lost. yeah, there is a complicated _ himself when he lost. yeah, there is a complicated psychological- himself when he lost. yeah, there is | a complicated psychological dynamic. christine in abergavenny, good morning. christine in abergavenny, good mornini. christine in abergavenny, good mornin. _ ,., ., ., christine in abergavenny, good mornini. ., ., ., morning. good morning, how are you? i'm fine, thanks. _ morning. good morning, how are you? i'm fine, thanks. there _ morning. good morning, how are you? i'm fine, thanks. there was _ morning. good morning, how are you? i'm fine, thanks. there was a - morning. good morning, how are you? i'm fine, thanks. there was a lot i morning. good morning, how are you? i'm fine, thanks. there was a lot of- i'm fine, thanks. there was a lot of stuff going on in lockdown and that's when your daughter got into gambling. she that's when your daughter got into unamblin. ,, ,, ., gambling. she did. she did for quite a lona time gambling. she did. she did for quite a long time until _ gambling. she did. she did for quite a long time until she _ gambling. she did. she did for quite a long time until she got _ gambling. she did. she did for quite a long time until she got suicidal. i a long time until she got suicidal. i noticed — a long time until she got suicidal. i noticed there _ a long time until she got suicidal. i noticed there was _ a long time until she got suicidal. i noticed there was something - a long time until she got suicidal. i i noticed there was something wrong with her. _ i noticed there was something wrong with her. she — i noticed there was something wrong with her, she was _ i noticed there was something wrong with her, she was losing _ i noticed there was something wrong with her, she was losing weight - i noticed there was something wrong with her, she was losing weight and i with her, she was losing weight and she wasri't— with her, she was losing weight and she wasn't herself. _ with her, she was losing weight and she wasn't herself. she _ with her, she was losing weight and she wasn't herself. she is _ with her, she was losing weight and she wasn't herself. she is usually. with her, she was losing weight and she wasn't herself. she is usually a| she wasn't herself. she is usually a bubbly— she wasn't herself. she is usually a bubbly gift — she wasn't herself. she is usually a bubbtygirt her_ she wasn't herself. she is usually a bubbly girl. her husband _ she wasn't herself. she is usually a bubbly girl. her husband knew - bubbly girl. her husband knew nothing — bubbly girl. her husband knew nothing about— bubbly girl. her husband knew

nothing about it. _ bubbly girl. her husband knew nothing about it. she - bubbly girl. her husband knew nothing about it. she had - bubbly girl. her husband knew - nothing about it. she had everything anyone _ nothing about it. she had everything anyone could — nothing about it. she had everything anyone could wish _ nothing about it. she had everything anyone could wish for _ nothing about it. she had everything anyone could wish for but _ nothing about it. she had everything anyone could wish for but this - nothing about it. she had everything anyone could wish for but this was . anyone could wish for but this was on the _ anyone could wish for but this was on the side — anyone could wish for but this was on the side. she _ anyone could wish for but this was on the side. she would _ anyone could wish for but this was on the side. she would make - anyone could wish for but this was . on the side. she would make excuses that she _ on the side. she would make excuses that she would — on the side. she would make excuses that she would come _ on the side. she would make excuses that she would come to _ on the side. she would make excuses that she would come to visit - on the side. she would make excuses that she would come to visit me - on the side. she would make excuses| that she would come to visit me when she was— that she would come to visit me when she was sitting — that she would come to visit me when she was sitting in _ that she would come to visit me when she was sitting in the _ that she would come to visit me when she was sitting in the car— that she would come to visit me when she was sitting in the car gambling. . she was sitting in the car gambling. she was— she was sitting in the car gambling. she was doing — she was sitting in the car gambling. she was doing slots _ she was sitting in the car gambling. she was doing slots and _ she was sitting in the car gambling. she was doing slots and getting - she was sitting in the car gambling. she was doing slots and getting a l she was doing slots and getting a thrill out — she was doing slots and getting a thrill out of — she was doing slots and getting a thrill out of it _ she was doing slots and getting a thrill out of it when _ she was doing slots and getting a thrill out of it when she _ she was doing slots and getting a thrill out of it when she was - she was doing slots and getting a | thrill out of it when she was doing it but— thrill out of it when she was doing it but when— thrill out of it when she was doing it but when she _ thrill out of it when she was doing it but when she started _ thrill out of it when she was doing it but when she started to - thrill out of it when she was doing it but when she started to lose . thrill out of it when she was doingl it but when she started to lose she was borrowing _ it but when she started to lose she was borrowing money— it but when she started to lose she was borrowing money from - it but when she started to lose she was borrowing money from payday| was borrowing money from payday loans _ was borrowing money from payday loans she — was borrowing money from payday loans. she took— was borrowing money from payday loans. she took out _ was borrowing money from payday loans. she took out another- was borrowing money from payday loans. she took out another two i loans. she took out another two credit _ loans. she took out another two credit cards _ loans. she took out another two credit cards. the _ loans. she took out another two credit cards. the first _ loans. she took out another two credit cards. the first bill- loans. she took out another two credit cards. the first bill we - loans. she took out another two| credit cards. the first bill we had was 6500 — credit cards. the first bill we had was 6500 a_ credit cards. the first bill we had was 6500. a couple _ credit cards. the first bill we had was 6500. a couple of— credit cards. the first bill we had was 6500. a couple of months . credit cards. the first bill we had . was 6500. a couple of months went credit cards. the first bill we had - was 6500. a couple of months went by and she _ was 6500. a couple of months went by and she said _ was 6500. a couple of months went by and she said she — was 6500. a couple of months went by and she said she had _ was 6500. a couple of months went by and she said she had finished - was 6500. a couple of months went by and she said she had finished but- and she said she had finished but then she — and she said she had finished but then she started _ and she said she had finished but then she started again _ and she said she had finished but then she started again and - and she said she had finished but then she started again and that l and she said she had finished but. then she started again and that was another— then she started again and that was another hilt — then she started again and that was another bill for— then she started again and that was another bill for 5800. _ then she started again and that was another bill for 5800. what - then she started again and that was another bill for 5800.— another bill for 5800. what did you sa to her another bill for 5800. what did you say to her about _ another bill for 5800. what did you say to her about this? _ another bill for 5800. what did you say to her about this? did - another bill for 5800. what did you say to her about this? did you - say to her about this? did you understand she was an addict, she had become an addict? mat understand she was an addict, she had become an addict?— understand she was an addict, she had become an addict? not at that time, until her— had become an addict? not at that time, until her husband _ had become an addict? not at that time, until her husband brought i had become an addict? not at that time, until her husband brought it| time, until her husband brought it to me _ time, until her husband brought it to me and — time, until her husband brought it to me and we _ time, until her husband brought it to me and we said _ time, until her husband brought it to me and we said we _ time, until her husband brought it to me and we said we had - time, until her husband brought it to me and we said we had to - time, until her husband brought it to me and we said we had to do . to me and we said we had to do something _ to me and we said we had to do something about _ to me and we said we had to do something about it. _ to me and we said we had to do something about it. she - to me and we said we had to do something about it. she got- something about it. she got suicidal. _ something about it. she got suicidal, she _ something about it. she got suicidal, she was _ something about it. she got suicidal, she was going - something about it. she got suicidal, she was going to l something about it. she got. suicidal, she was going to drive something about it. she got- suicidal, she was going to drive her vehicle _ suicidal, she was going to drive her vehicle into — suicidal, she was going to drive her vehicle into the _ suicidal, she was going to drive her vehicle into the big _ suicidal, she was going to drive her vehicle into the big river— suicidal, she was going to drive her vehicle into the big river because i vehicle into the big river because she thought _ vehicle into the big river because she thought she _ vehicle into the big river because she thought she couldn't - vehicle into the big river because she thought she couldn't face - she thought she couldn't face anyone —

she thought she couldn't face anyone we _ she thought she couldn't face anyone. we sorted _ she thought she couldn't face anyone. we sorted that- she thought she couldn't face anyone. we sorted that out. i she thought she couldn't face i anyone. we sorted that out. i she thought she couldn't face - anyone. we sorted that out. i went with her— anyone. we sorted that out. i went with her two— anyone. we sorted that out. i went with her two gamblers _ anyone. we sorted that out. i wenti with her two gamblers anonymous. anyone. we sorted that out. i went- with her two gamblers anonymous. she has been _ with her two gamblers anonymous. she has been free _ with her two gamblers anonymous. she has been free of— with her two gamblers anonymous. she has been free of gambling _ with her two gamblers anonymous. she has been free of gambling for— with her two gamblers anonymous. she has been free of gambling for nearly. has been free of gambling for nearly seven— has been free of gambling for nearly seven nronths— has been free of gambling for nearly seven months now— has been free of gambling for nearly seven months now but _ has been free of gambling for nearly seven months now but she - has been free of gambling for nearly seven months now but she says - has been free of gambling for nearly seven months now but she says the | seven months now but she says the ur-e seven months now but she says the urge is— seven months now but she says the urge is still— seven months now but she says the urge is still there _ seven months now but she says the urge is still there because - seven months now but she says the urge is still there because they- seven months now but she says the urge is still there because they arel urge is still there because they are still coming — urge is still there because they are still coming up _ urge is still there because they are still coming up on _ urge is still there because they are still coming up on her— urge is still there because they are still coming up on her phone - urge is still there because they arei still coming up on her phone about betting _ still coming up on her phone about betting every— still coming up on her phone about betting. every time _ still coming up on her phone about betting. every time she _ still coming up on her phone about betting. every time she puts - still coming up on her phone about betting. every time she puts the l betting. every time she puts the phone _ betting. every time she puts the phone on. — betting. every time she puts the phone on. it _ betting. every time she puts the phone on, it comes— betting. every time she puts the phone on, it comes up. - betting. every time she puts the phone on, it comes up. she - betting. every time she puts the phone on, it comes up. she has| betting. every time she puts the - phone on, it comes up. she has had a block— phone on, it comes up. she has had a block on _ phone on, it comes up. she has had a block on so _ phone on, it comes up. she has had a block on so many— phone on, it comes up. she has had a block on so many different _ phone on, it comes up. she has had a block on so many different betting - block on so many different betting adverts _ block on so many different betting adverts this — block on so many different betting adverts this month _ block on so many different betting adverts this month but _ block on so many different betting adverts this month but still- block on so many different betting adverts this month but still they. adverts this month but still they seem _ adverts this month but still they seem to — adverts this month but still they seem to get _ adverts this month but still they seem to get through _ adverts this month but still they seem to get through to - adverts this month but still they seem to get through to her. - adverts this month but still they| seem to get through to her. she adverts this month but still they- seem to get through to her. she said it is still— seem to get through to her. she said it is still there, _ seem to get through to her. she said it is still there, the _ seem to get through to her. she said it is still there, the urge _ seem to get through to her. she said it is still there, the urge is— seem to get through to her. she said it is still there, the urge is still- it is still there, the urge is still there — it is still there, the urge is still there but _ it is still there, the urge is still there. but with _ it is still there, the urge is still there. but with this _ it is still there, the urge is still there. but with this going - it is still there, the urge is still there. but with this going on . it is still there, the urge is still there. but with this going on ii there. but with this going on i don't — there. but with this going on i don't think— there. but with this going on i don't think i_ there. but with this going on i don't think i can _ there. but with this going on i don't think i can take - there. but with this going on i don't think i can take it - there. but with this going on i don't think i can take it any i there. but with this going on i- don't think i can take it any more. she has— don't think i can take it any more. she has a — don't think i can take it any more. she has a psychiatrist _ don't think i can take it any more. she has a psychiatrist now- don't think i can take it any more. she has a psychiatrist now for- don't think i can take it any more. she has a psychiatrist now for her| she has a psychiatrist now for her mental— she has a psychiatrist now for her mental health— she has a psychiatrist now for her mental health because _ she has a psychiatrist now for her mental health because she - she has a psychiatrist now for her mental health because she is- she has a psychiatrist now for her| mental health because she is very poortv _ mental health because she is very poorly. she — mental health because she is very poorly. she doesn't _ mental health because she is very poorly. she doesn't use _ mental health because she is very poorly. she doesn't use her- mental health because she is very| poorly. she doesn't use her phone any more — poorly. she doesn't use her phone any more she _ poorly. she doesn't use her phone any more. she just— poorly. she doesn't use her phone any more. she just uses— poorly. she doesn't use her phone any more. she just uses the - poorly. she doesn't use her phone| any more. she just uses the house tine _ any more. she 'ust uses the house line. . , ., any more. she just uses the house line. . , ., at any more. she just uses the house line-- at the _ any more. she just uses the house line.- at the moment - any more. she just uses the house l line.- at the moment things line. carry on. at the moment things are fine but— line. carry on. at the moment things are fine but with _

line. carry on. at the moment things are fine but with the _ line. carry on. at the moment things are fine but with the government - are fine but with the government butting _ are fine but with the government putting it — are fine but with the government putting it through, _ are fine but with the government putting it through, i— are fine but with the government putting it through, i don't- are fine but with the government putting it through, i don't know. are fine but with the government| putting it through, i don't know if it putting it through, idon't know if it will— putting it through, i don't know if it will be — putting it through, i don't know if it will be enough. _ putting it through, i don't know if it will be enough. it _ putting it through, i don't know if it will be enough. it keeps - putting it through, i don't know if it will be enough. it keeps on - it will be enough. it keeps on buzzing _ it will be enough. it keeps on buzzing. when _ it will be enough. it keeps on buzzing. when we _ it will be enough. it keeps on buzzing. when we did - it will be enough. it keeps on buzzing. when we did go- it will be enough. it keeps on buzzing. when we did go to l it will be enough. it keeps on - buzzing. when we did go to gamblers anonvmous, — buzzing. when we did go to gamblers anonymous, and _ buzzing. when we did go to gamblers anonymous, and she _ buzzing. when we did go to gamblers anonymous, and she does _ buzzing. when we did go to gamblers anonymous, and she does it- buzzing. when we did go to gamblers anonymous, and she does it on- buzzing. when we did go to gamblers anonymous, and she does it on zoom now: _ anonymous, and she does it on zoom now. and _ anonymous, and she does it on zoom now. and she — anonymous, and she does it on zoom now. and she says— anonymous, and she does it on zoom now, and she says she _ anonymous, and she does it on zoom now, and she says she feels - anonymous, and she does it on zooml now, and she says she feels ashamed. she doesn't— now, and she says she feels ashamed. she doesn't want— now, and she says she feels ashamed. she doesn't want to _ now, and she says she feels ashamed. she doesn't want to be _ now, and she says she feels ashamed. she doesn't want to be associated - she doesn't want to be associated with people — she doesn't want to be associated with people any— she doesn't want to be associated with people any more, _ she doesn't want to be associated with people any more, she - she doesn't want to be associated with people any more, she feels. she doesn't want to be associated . with people any more, she feels like she has— with people any more, she feels like she has let _ with people any more, she feels like she has let people _ with people any more, she feels like she has let people down. _ with people any more, she feels like she has let people down. when - with people any more, she feels like she has let people down. when we i she has let people down. when we were to _ she has let people down. when we were to gamblers _ she has let people down. when we were to gamblers anonymous, - she has let people down. when we were to gamblers anonymous, the| were to gamblers anonymous, the people _ were to gamblers anonymous, the people who — were to gamblers anonymous, the people who were _ were to gamblers anonymous, the people who were there, _ were to gamblers anonymous, the people who were there, they- were to gamblers anonymous, the people who were there, they had. people who were there, they had voung _ people who were there, they had young children _ people who were there, they had young children from _ people who were there, they had young children from the - people who were there, they had young children from the age - people who were there, they had young children from the age of l people who were there, they had i young children from the age of ten that had _ young children from the age of ten that had been— young children from the age of ten that had been gambling _ young children from the age of ten that had been gambling on - young children from the age of ten that had been gambling on the - young children from the age of ten - that had been gambling on the phone, and the _ that had been gambling on the phone, and the numbers— that had been gambling on the phone, and the numbers were _ that had been gambling on the phone, and the numbers were unbelievable. l and the numbers were unbelievable. the parents' — and the numbers were unbelievable. the parents' bills _ and the numbers were unbelievable. the parents' bills were _ and the numbers were unbelievable. the parents' bills were coming - and the numbers were unbelievable. the parents' bills were coming in- the parents' bills were coming in for £1000 — the parents' bills were coming in for £1000 on— the parents' bills were coming in for £1000 on the _ the parents' bills were coming in for £1000 on the phone. - the parents' bills were coming in for £1000 on the phone. one - the parents' bills were coming in. for £1000 on the phone. one little lad for £1000 on the phone. one little tad stote _ for £1000 on the phone. one little tad stole his— for £1000 on the phone. one little lad stole his mum _ for £1000 on the phone. one little lad stole his mum because - for £1000 on the phone. one little lad stole his mum because credit i lad stole his mum because credit card _ lad stole his mum because credit card he — lad stole his mum because credit card he was— lad stole his mum because credit card. he was gambling _ lad stole his mum because credit card. he was gambling online - lad stole his mum because credit. card. he was gambling online with that _ card. he was gambling online with that. . ~ card. he was gambling online with that. ., ,, , ., card. he was gambling online with that. ., ,, . ., that. thank you so much for your call. that. thank you so much for your call- thank— that. thank you so much for your call. thank you _ that. thank you so much for your call. thank you to _ that. thank you so much for your call. thank you to everyone - that. thank you so much for your call. thank you to everyone for i that. thank you so much for your i call. thank you to everyone for your contributions this morning. the white paper, we will get the details at 11.30. if you are looking for

support on anything we have discussed this morning, you can find details and organisations who can help if you go to the bbc action line website. it is a brilliant resource and you will find the right direction to find help. when football dreams don't come true, we all have dreams as a kid. a lot of kids want to be put dollars, i did, ridiculous notion but i still had the dream and then people who really can play football, maybe not, it ain't going to happen but some go a huge way along that road of their dreams of fame and fortune and now beyond the dreams of avarice, worldwide superstardom we see somebody like players playing last night in the city and arsenal game,

to be that. liverpool's trent alexander arnold has been talking to 5 live this morning about an initiative he's launching to help academy players who don't make a career in the game. trent, who is 2a now, has been with liverpool since he was six. that is what it is like these days. as well as being amazingly talented and dedicated, he is one of the lucky ones. it is estimated that of the 1.5 million players who are playing youth football in england, just 180 — or 0.012% — will make it as a premier league professional. more than three quarters of academy players are dropped between the ages of 13 and 16. to have your dreams of making it as a pro shattered at this age can of course be devastating. when you come across people and life and they say to you i was on the books of leeds or partick thistle, i am always interested, they have that

conversation and then you say what happened? could have been but it was never going to happen will step 08085 909693 and text 85058. here is the news from bethan holmes. the government is expected to set out the biggest changes to gambling laws in nearly two decades. they want to update it because of smartphones — which has completely changed how people place bets. the new rules aren't expected to include bans on gambling sponsorship or advertising. the foreign secretary — james cleverly — says the "time is now" for british nationals who want to leave sudan — as it's unclear what will happen when a ceasefire in the country ends tonight.

evacuation flights are continuing from an airfield near the capital — khartoum. the national education union says — while it "regrets" the disruption caused by today's teachers strike in england — staff shortages are causing "wider problems". it's the fourth walk—out this year as part of a dispute about pay — after unions rejected the latest offer. the government says the decision on pay will now be made by an independent review body. and — a pair of leather shorts worn by freddie mercury on stage have been sold at auction for £18,000. they went for £10,000 more than first thought — with the auction house calling the price 'incredible.�* football, add to the dream ends. it

is such a difficult time and psychological ship for people as well. we will hear what trent alexander—arnold has actually said about that in just a second but from my own experience and own family it is completely different but it shows you even on a small level it really can impact in a sense, my daughter, i was so proud, she represented england pentathlon in athletics, under fifteens, england pentathlon in athletics, underfifteens, as england pentathlon in athletics, under fifteens, as a england pentathlon in athletics, underfifteens, as a scotsman, it was amazing, she sees people on the telly still to this day, katarina johnson—thompson and others who she trained with and competed against, she has a moment, as you would. it is all good but she is just, she has a moment, as you would. it is all good but she isjust, ok. the lower leagues and non—league football, he roots of those places paved with dreams and schoolboy internationals. sometimes it is injury. when you meet people who say

i was on the books of hibs or hartlepool or huddersfield, they still have such a story to tell and there are so many questions to ask because i love football, but then it wasn't to be, it wasn't for me or i wasn't to be, it wasn't for me or i wasn't for them. that is what we are exploring this morning. tell us your stories and your own experiences, it could be you were family members. let's listen to england and liverpool defender trent alexander—arnold who was on bbc brea kfast breakfast this morning. growing up in football, seeing _ breakfast this morning. growing up in football, seeing and _ breakfast this morning. growing up in football, seeing and playing - breakfast this morning. growing up in football, seeing and playing with so many players aren'tjust realising it is not right any more. what happens afterwards. it was about 12 or 13 of us and we all sacrificed the same and i was the lucky one. the others don't have anything to show for what they put

into the academy system and i thought for too long this is going on and it is time for a change. let's discuss this and hear from you as well, martin herdman, former premier league coach. how are you doing? premier league coach. how are you doin: ? ., . premier league coach. how are you doin:? ., ., i. premier league coach. how are you doin:? ., ., premier league coach. how are you doin:? ., . | premier league coach. how are you | doing?_ i know doing? how are you, you ok? i know ou're a doing? how are you, you ok? i know you're a real — doing? how are you, you ok? i know you're a real advocate _ doing? how are you, you ok? i know you're a real advocate for _ you're a real advocate for after—care and sometimes a is needed. and it doesn't happen so it is great to have you there to talk about that. and rory carson our colleague and bbc reporter, former footballer. hi. and dr misia gervis, sport psychologist at brunel university who has worked at several football academies. university who has worked at several footballacademies. it university who has worked at several football academies. it is a tough thing when you are rejected, isn't it? we will find out about the after—care but when those dreams are shattered what is it like for a kid? it is devastating. i think the

longer— it is devastating. i think the longer they— it is devastating. i think the longer they have _ it is devastating. i think the longer they have been - it is devastating. i think the longer they have been in i it is devastating. i think the| longer they have been in the it is devastating. i think the - longer they have been in the system the harder— longer they have been in the system the harder they— longer they have been in the system the harder they fall. _ longer they have been in the system the harder they fall. if— longer they have been in the system the harder they fall. if you _ longer they have been in the system the harder they fall. if you have - the harder they fall. if you have been _ the harder they fall. if you have been in — the harder they fall. if you have been in an— the harder they fall. if you have been in an academy— the harder they fall. if you have been in an academy since - the harder they fall. if you have been in an academy since you i the harder they fall. if you have - been in an academy since you were seven— been in an academy since you were seven and — been in an academy since you were seven and then _ been in an academy since you were seven and then get _ been in an academy since you were seven and then get all _ been in an academy since you were seven and then get all the - been in an academy since you were seven and then get all the way - been in an academy since you were seven and then get all the way to i been in an academy since you werel seven and then get all the way to 18 or16 seven and then get all the way to 18 or 16 and _ seven and then get all the way to 18 or 16 and then— seven and then get all the way to 18 or 16 and then it _ seven and then get all the way to 18 or 16 and then it is _ seven and then get all the way to 18 or 16 and then it is no, _ seven and then get all the way to 18 or 16 and then it is no, it— seven and then get all the way to 18 or 16 and then it is no, it is- seven and then get all the way to 18 or 16 and then it is no, it is a - seven and then get all the way to 18 or 16 and then it is no, it is a lot - or 16 and then it is no, it is a lot harder— or 16 and then it is no, it is a lot harder because _ or 16 and then it is no, it is a lot harder because we _ or 16 and then it is no, it is a lot harder because we have - or 16 and then it is no, it is a lotl harder because we have invested evervthing — harder because we have invested everything into— harder because we have invested everything into being _ harder because we have invested everything into being a _ harder because we have invested i everything into being a footballer, your identity— everything into being a footballer, your identity is _ everything into being a footballer, your identity is shaped _ everything into being a footballer, your identity is shaped by- everything into being a footballer, your identity is shaped by being i everything into being a footballer, your identity is shaped by being a| your identity is shaped by being a footballer, — your identity is shaped by being a footballer, you _ your identity is shaped by being a footballer, you describe - your identity is shaped by being a footballer, you describe yourselfl your identity is shaped by being a l footballer, you describe yourself as i am footballer, you describe yourself as i am a _ footballer, you describe yourself as i am a footballer, _ footballer, you describe yourself as i am a footballer, your— footballer, you describe yourself as i am a footballer, your family- footballer, you describe yourself as i am a footballer, your family talk. i am a footballer, your family talk about— i am a footballer, your family talk about you — i am a footballer, your family talk about you in — i am a footballer, your family talk about you in those _ i am a footballer, your family talk about you in those terms, - i am a footballer, your family talk. about you in those terms, everything is invested _ about you in those terms, everything is invested into _ about you in those terms, everything is invested into that, _ about you in those terms, everything is invested into that, those _ about you in those terms, everything is invested into that, those two- is invested into that, those two innocuous _ is invested into that, those two innocuous words, _ is invested into that, those two innocuous words, i— is invested into that, those two innocuous words, i am, - is invested into that, those two innocuous words, i am, and - is invested into that, those ton innocuous words, i am, and that means— innocuous words, i am, and that means the — innocuous words, i am, and that means the rest _ innocuous words, i am, and that means the rest of— innocuous words, i am, and that means the rest of you _ innocuous words, i am, and that means the rest of you is - innocuous words, i am, and that. means the rest of you is neglected and ignored — means the rest of you is neglected and ignored and _ means the rest of you is neglected and ignored and not _ means the rest of you is neglected and ignored and not valued - means the rest of you is neglected i and ignored and not valued actually. and that _ and ignored and not valued actually. and that can— and ignored and not valued actually. and that can be _ and ignored and not valued actually. and that can be extremely— and ignored and not valued actually. and that can be extremely hard - and ignored and not valued actually. | and that can be extremely hard then because _ and that can be extremely hard then because we — and that can be extremely hard then because we have _ and that can be extremely hard then because we have to _ and that can be extremely hard then because we have to reinvent - and that can be extremely hard then| because we have to reinvent yourself and you _ because we have to reinvent yourself and you are — because we have to reinvent yourself and you are river— because we have to reinvent yourself and you are river young, _ because we have to reinvent yourself and you are river young, 16, - because we have to reinvent yourself and you are river young, 16, trying i and you are river young, 16, trying to figure _ and you are river young, 16, trying to figure out — and you are river young, 16, trying

to figure out who _ and you are river young, 16, trying to figure out who you _ and you are river young, 16, trying to figure out who you are - and you are river young, 16, trying to figure out who you are any- and you are river young, 16, tryingl to figure out who you are any which is top. _ to figure out who you are any which is top, 16—year—olds _ to figure out who you are any which is top, 16—year—olds anywhere, - to figure out who you are any which is top, 16—year—olds anywhere, butj is top, 16—year—olds anywhere, but when _ is top, 16—year—olds anywhere, but when your— is top, 16—year—olds anywhere, but when your identity— is top, 16—year—olds anywhere, but when your identity as _ is top, 16—year—olds anywhere, but when your identity as been - is top, 16—year—olds anywhere, but when your identity as been taken i when your identity as been taken away— when your identity as been taken away from — when your identity as been taken away from you _ when your identity as been taken away from you it _ when your identity as been taken away from you it can _ when your identity as been taken away from you it can be - when your identity as been taken away from you it can be so - when your identity as been taken away from you it can be so hard i when your identity as been taken i away from you it can be so hard for these _ away from you it can be so hard for these young — away from you it can be so hard for these young men— away from you it can be so hard for these young men to _ away from you it can be so hard for these young men to navigate - away from you it can be so hard for. these young men to navigate through it. a, these young men to navigate through it. ~., , , ., ., these young men to navigate through it. martin, i guess a lot of it is down to how _ it. martin, i guess a lot of it is down to how much _ it. martin, i guess a lot of it is down to how much your- it. martin, i guess a lot of it is. down to how much your parents it. martin, i guess a lot of it is - down to how much your parents have been seduced by it all, would that been seduced by it all, would that be fair to say? i been seduced by it all, would that be fair to say?— be fair to say? i think it is certainly _ be fair to say? i think it is certainly a _ be fair to say? i think it is certainly a factor. - be fair to say? i think it is certainly a factor. if - be fair to say? i think it is certainly a factor. if you i be fair to say? i think it is - certainly a factor. if you break it all down i think the parents, they are part of the journey, a all down i think the parents, they are part of thejourney, a huge significant partner, they want it as much as the kid and they buy into it as much, and that is something around the educational piece around parents. i have known some parents and some close to me who have players in academies who drop the kids off and go home and some turn up kids off and go home and some turn up and watch every session at travel

around and the hours they put in they probably think at the end of it they probably think at the end of it they are just as heartbroken because i have driven the kid up and down the country so they are looking to think they have sacrificed eight or nine years and what have i got out of it so there is always a bit of a selfish thing from them but the parents are just as involved. thea;r parents are 'ust as involved. they have to parents are just as involved. they have to keep _ parents are just as involved. they have to keep their _ parents are just as involved. they have to keep their feet _ parents are just as involved. they have to keep their feet on - parents are just as involved. they have to keep their feet on the ground. i have to keep their feet on the round. ., �* ,., , ground. idon't disagree. it is important— ground. i don't disagree. it is important they _ ground. i don't disagree. it is important they absolutely - ground. i don't disagree. it is. important they absolutely have ground. i don't disagree. it is- important they absolutely have the conversations with the child, they tell them the reality of 0.1%, and i am playing devils advocate, a lot of them even they think of them is that 0.1%, they think littlejohnny is that and it is their dreams, some parents keep their feet on the ground and they do educate and that is not every parent, every parent has the best interests at heart but sometimes it can be misguided and

whether that is a lack of education from the whole framework, it is you are in this together and your own pet but let's be realistic about this. if you're looking at £130 a week, there is a bit of a pot of role —— gold at the end of this isn't there, misia? the role -- gold at the end of this isn't there, misia?— role -- gold at the end of this isn't there, misia? the pot of gold isn't there, misia? the pot of gold is an illusion, _ isn't there, misia? the pot of gold is an illusion, i— isn't there, misia? the pot of gold is an illusion, i have _ isn't there, misia? the pot of gold is an illusion, i have worked - isn't there, misia? the pot of gold is an illusion, i have worked with i is an illusion, i have worked with parents — is an illusion, i have worked with parents in — is an illusion, i have worked with parents in workshops _ is an illusion, i have worked with parents in workshops to - is an illusion, i have worked with parents in workshops to try- is an illusion, i have worked with parents in workshops to try to i is an illusion, i have worked withi parents in workshops to try to get them _ parents in workshops to try to get them to— parents in workshops to try to get them to recognise _ parents in workshops to try to get them to recognise the _ parents in workshops to try to getl them to recognise the possibilities of that— them to recognise the possibilities of that are — them to recognise the possibilities of that are very— them to recognise the possibilities of that are very small _ them to recognise the possibilities of that are very small but - them to recognise the possibilities of that are very small but also - them to recognise the possibilities. of that are very small but also more so in _ of that are very small but also more so in terms — of that are very small but also more so in terms of— of that are very small but also more so in terms of how— of that are very small but also more so in terms of how they _ of that are very small but also more so in terms of how they can - of that are very small but also more so in terms of how they can develop their son _ so in terms of how they can develop their son to— so in terms of how they can develop their son to be— so in terms of how they can develop their son to be a _ so in terms of how they can develop their son to be a great— so in terms of how they can develop their son to be a great person, - so in terms of how they can develop their son to be a great person, to. their son to be a great person, to enjoy— their son to be a great person, to enjoy the — their son to be a great person, to enjoy the journey— their son to be a great person, to enjoy the journey and _ their son to be a great person, to enjoy the journey and i _ their son to be a great person, to enjoy the journey and i think - enjoy the journey and i think sometimes _ enjoy the journey and i think sometimes the _ enjoy the journey and i think sometimes the bits - enjoy the journey and i think sometimes the bits about i enjoy the journey and i think i sometimes the bits about being enjoy the journey and i think - sometimes the bits about being in an academy— sometimes the bits about being in an academy that — sometimes the bits about being in an academy that can _ sometimes the bits about being in an academy that can develop _ sometimes the bits about being in an academy that can develop a - sometimes the bits about being in an academy that can develop a young i academy that can develop a young person— academy that can develop a young person in— academy that can develop a young person in a — academy that can develop a young person in a broader— academy that can develop a young person in a broader sense - academy that can develop a young person in a broader sense of- academy that can develop a young person in a broader sense of the l person in a broader sense of the world _ person in a broader sense of the world are — person in a broader sense of the world are being _ person in a broader sense of the

world are being ignored - person in a broader sense of the world are being ignored with - person in a broader sense of the| world are being ignored with this notion— world are being ignored with this notion of— world are being ignored with this notion of it — world are being ignored with this notion of it is _ world are being ignored with this notion of it is only— world are being ignored with this notion of it is only about - world are being ignored with this notion of it is only about the - notion of it is only about the success— notion of it is only about the success at— notion of it is only about the success at the _ notion of it is only about the success at the end - notion of it is only about the success at the end of - notion of it is only about the success at the end of it. - notion of it is only about the success at the end of it. butj success at the end of it. but actually _ success at the end of it. but actually some _ success at the end of it. but actually some of— success at the end of it. but actually some of them - success at the end of it. but actually some of them need| success at the end of it. but i actually some of them need to success at the end of it. but - actually some of them need to be reframe _ actually some of them need to be reframe and — actually some of them need to be reframe and maybe _ actually some of them need to be reframe and maybe that - actually some of them need to be reframe and maybe that can - actually some of them need to be reframe and maybe that can be i reframe and maybe that can be something _ reframe and maybe that can be something to _ reframe and maybe that can be something to be _ reframe and maybe that can be something to be embraced - reframe and maybe that can be something to be embraced andj something to be embraced and enjoyed, — something to be embraced and enjoyed, and _ something to be embraced and enjoyed, and the _ something to be embraced and enjoyed, and the parents- something to be embraced and enjoyed, and the parents see i something to be embraced andj enjoyed, and the parents see it something to be embraced and - enjoyed, and the parents see it from a different— enjoyed, and the parents see it from a different perspective _ enjoyed, and the parents see it from a different perspective rather- enjoyed, and the parents see it from a different perspective rather than. a different perspective rather than it is all— a different perspective rather than it is all a _ a different perspective rather than it is all a waste _ a different perspective rather than it is all a waste of— a different perspective rather than it is all a waste of time _ a different perspective rather than it is all a waste of time unless- a different perspective rather than it is all a waste of time unless you .et it is all a waste of time unless you get a _ it is all a waste of time unless you get a pro — it is all a waste of time unless you get a pro contract, _ it is all a waste of time unless you get a pro contract, they— it is all a waste of time unless you get a pro contract, they can - it is all a waste of time unless you i get a pro contract, they can reframe that and _ get a pro contract, they can reframe that and maybe _ get a pro contract, they can reframe that and maybe then _ get a pro contract, they can reframe that and maybe then it _ get a pro contract, they can reframe that and maybe then it becomes- that and maybe then it becomes something — that and maybe then it becomes something slightly— that and maybe then it becomes something slightly different. - that and maybe then it becomes. something slightly different. trent said something _ something slightly different. trent said something really _ something slightly different. thizhh said something really good, something slightly different. said something really good, he something slightly different.- said something really good, he said something really instructive, sometimes there is just no plan something really instructive, sometimes there isjust no plan b because everything, emotion, time, energy, dreams, ambitions, everything is invested in plan an and event that doesn't happen. rory, bbc reporter who used to work for 5 live, what a stellar career you have had as a journalist, came good in the end. i remember when we first

met and i had the thing about, oh, footballer! you said you had been on the books at leeds and i thought wow, that is incredible and then the next question is why are you in the bbc news rim? what was yourjourney as they say? bbc news rim? what was your 'ourney as they say?— as they say? because i am not very aood at as they say? because i am not very good at football! _ as they say? because i am not very good at football! stop _ as they say? because i am not very good at football! stop it. _ as they say? because i am not very good at football! stop it. what - as they say? because i am not very good at football! stop it. what age | good at football! stop it. what age were ou good at football! stop it. what age were you when _ good at football! stop it. what age were you when you _ good at football! stop it. what age were you when you are _ good at football! stop it. what age were you when you are on - good at football! stop it. what age were you when you are on the - good at football! stop it. what age i were you when you are on the books at leeds? i were you when you are on the books at leeds? .. . were you when you are on the books at leeds? ' were you when you are on the books at leeds? .. . ' ., ., , were you when you are on the books at leeds? .. . ' .. ., , , ._ at leeds? i was 14 and i was playing in a ark at leeds? i was 14 and i was playing in a park game _ at leeds? i was 14 and i was playing in a park game in — at leeds? i was 14 and i was playing in a park game in northern - at leeds? i was 14 and i was playing in a park game in northern ireland. | in a park game in northern ireland. there _ in a park game in northern ireland. there were — in a park game in northern ireland. there were some leeds scouts that were watching and they looked the look of _ were watching and they looked the look of me and for the next two years— look of me and for the next two years i— look of me and for the next two years i went over fairly regularly, schoot _ years i went over fairly regularly, school breaks, you would go over and play. _ school breaks, you would go over and play. for _ school breaks, you would go over and play, for northern ireland kids you would _ play, for northern ireland kids you would think you are on trial but it went— would think you are on trial but it went on— would think you are on trial but it went on for— would think you are on trial but it went on for two years and when i hit 16 when— went on for two years and when i hit 16 when i_

went on for two years and when i hit 16 when i left school i signed for bradford — 16 when i left school i signed for bradford city and i was there three years. _ bradford city and i was there three years. but— bradford city and i was there three years. but i— bradford city and i was there three years, but i rememberwhen i bradford city and i was there three years, but i remember when i was about— years, but i remember when i was about seven, eight years of age tetting — about seven, eight years of age telling my dad i will be a footballer, decided, and i remember him tetting _ footballer, decided, and i remember him telling me you have to practice and work— him telling me you have to practice and work really hard. and try about the age _ and work really hard. and try about the age of— and work really hard. and try about the age of eight or nine every single — the age of eight or nine every single saturday felt like a world cup finat~ — single saturday felt like a world cup final. every single game you are thinking _ cup final. every single game you are thinking i_ cup final. every single game you are thinking i have to be right on it, the best— thinking i have to be right on it, the best player here so i can get my opportunity. that went on until i hit 19— opportunity. that went on until i hit 19 and — opportunity. that went on until i hit 19 and it is only now when i think— hit 19 and it is only now when i think back— hit 19 and it is only now when i think back i wasjust hit 19 and it is only now when i think back i was just completely mentally— think back i was just completely mentally exhausted. you are training for five _ mentally exhausted. you are training for five nights a week, you remove yourself, _ for five nights a week, you remove yourself, i— for five nights a week, you remove yourself, i didn't have a huge yourself, ididn't have a huge amount— yourself, ididn't have a huge amount of— yourself, i didn't have a huge amount of friends, i had friends in school— amount of friends, i had friends in school but — amount of friends, i had friends in school but i — amount of friends, i had friends in school but i would never go round to a friend _ school but i would never go round to a friend and — school but i would never go round to a friend and hang out for it to the bark— a friend and hang out for it to the park with — a friend and hang out for it to the park with other people from school on a friday—

park with other people from school on a friday night, everything was about— on a friday night, everything was about football and i had this ambition from a young age to try and do it _ ambition from a young age to try and do it when _ ambition from a young age to try and do it. when you go over there, i remember— do it. when you go over there, i remember in the cohort of players i was with— remember in the cohort of players i was with there was danny rose who went on— was with there was danny rose who went on to — was with there was danny rose who went on to play for england, fabienne _ went on to play for england, fabienne delph, a number of others who would _ fabienne delph, a number of others who would be well known in the premier— who would be well known in the premier league and players like fabienne — premier league and players like fabienne delph was a very light developer, and you don't know who will make _ developer, and you don't know who will make it — developer, and you don't know who will make it. and developer, and you don't know who will make it— will make it. and you can be an early developer— will make it. and you can be an early developer and _ will make it. and you can be an early developer and the - will make it. and you can be an early developer and the tales i will make it. and you can be an. early developer and the tales of. absolutely. the thing that always struck _ absolutely. the thing that always struck me — absolutely. the thing that always struck me about it when i look back was the _ struck me about it when i look back was the pressure and where that pressure — was the pressure and where that pressure came from. coaches are aware _ pressure came from. coaches are aware of— pressure came from. coaches are aware of the fact you're playing for aware of the fact you're playing for a contract — aware of the fact you're playing for a contract and you need to play well and get _ a contract and you need to play well and get in _ a contract and you need to play well and get in first team, put yourself under— and get in first team, put yourself under a _ and get in first team, put yourself under a lot— and get in first team, put yourself under a lot of pressure, and also from _ under a lot of pressure, and also from parents, everywhere, everyone

knows _ from parents, everywhere, everyone knows it— from parents, everywhere, everyone knows it as _ from parents, everywhere, everyone knows it as a — from parents, everywhere, everyone knows it as a footballer. whenever i .ot knows it as a footballer. whenever i got released i went back to northern lreland _ got released i went back to northern ireland and i was sitting in this park. — ireland and i was sitting in this park, feeding the ducks and i have 'ust park, feeding the ducks and i have just enrolled in my local college and everyone knew me and the these articles. _ and everyone knew me and the these articles. i_ and everyone knew me and the these articles, i was off to play football, however is going to be a superstar. — football, however is going to be a superstar, three years later i am sitting _ superstar, three years later i am sitting feeding ducks in banker and i rememberthinking sitting feeding ducks in banker and i remember thinking what am i going to do with _ i remember thinking what am i going to do with my life. and it was really— to do with my life. and it was really scary. it was hard and it took _ really scary. it was hard and it took a — really scary. it was hard and it took a lot _ really scary. it was hard and it took a lot of time to build yourself back up— took a lot of time to build yourself back up and the way i look at it is i developed amazing resilience, left home _ i developed amazing resilience, left home from a young age and worked really— home from a young age and worked really hard — home from a young age and worked really hard at something which are very good — really hard at something which are very good things you can transfer, but i _ very good things you can transfer, but i speak— very good things you can transfer, but i speak to an awful lot of kids where _ but i speak to an awful lot of kids where there is no plan b, there was no plan _ where there is no plan b, there was no plan b— where there is no plan b, there was no plan b for— where there is no plan b, there was no plan b for me but it is really difficult — no plan b for me but it is really difficult to _ no plan b for me but it is really difficult to put yourself back

together and if there isn't a support— together and if there isn't a support network and you don't have family— support network and you don't have family and — support network and you don't have family and friends, it is really difficult — family and friends, it is really difficult and i have heard some awful— difficult and i have heard some awful things from speaking to people who have _ awful things from speaking to people who have been through similar things — who have been through similar things. people who have been depressed, suicidal, really struggled. depressed, suicidal, really struggled-— depressed, suicidal, really strunled. �* ., ., struggled. but then you have got lanned struggled. but then you have got planned bbc _ struggled. but then you have got planned bbc and _ struggled. but then you have got planned bbc and here _ struggled. but then you have got planned bbc and here you - struggled. but then you have got planned bbc and here you are. l planned bbc and here you are. exactly. planned bbc and here you are. exactl . ~ .. ,~ exactly. we have ryan in solihull and andy in _ exactly. we have ryan in solihull and andy in preston. _ exactly. we have ryan in solihull and andy in preston. hi. - exactly. we have ryan in solihull and andy in preston. hi. ryan, i exactly. we have ryan in solihull. and andy in preston. hi. ryan, you had dreams, what happened? i did as i think most — had dreams, what happened? i did as i think most boys _ had dreams, what happened? i did as i think most boys do _ had dreams, what happened? i did as i think most boys do when _ had dreams, what happened? i did as i think most boys do when they - had dreams, what happened? i did as i think most boys do when they are i i think most boys do when they are younger. i was very fortunate that i was a good footballer and i played sunday league to start with and then i was picked up by a professional club, went for trials and was fortunate to be a regular. i will

not say the name of the club just because i don't want to cause any issues legally because of my experience, but i remember being taken into a room following a game we played against west brom at the age of 15 and they basically brought in every single individual player and said whether they were keeping them or whether they were releasing them or whether they were releasing them and sadly i was on the side of they were releasing me. but it was so brutal in the way they did it, there was no maliciousness or anything like that, no belittling of me as a player, it was purely black and white, we will not keep you, thank you for your support. llistens and white, we will not keep you, thank you for your support. were you 15? 14, nearly _ thank you for your support. were you 15? 14, nearly 15. — thank you for your support. were you 15? 14, nearly 15. at _ thank you for your support. were you 15? 14, nearly 15. at that _ thank you for your support. were you

15? 14, nearly 15. at that point, - 15? 14, nearly 15. at that point, our 15? 14, nearly 15. at that point, your world _ 15? 14, nearly 15. at that point, your world shutters _ 15? 14, nearly 15. at that point, your world shutters and - 15? 14, nearly 15. at that point, your world shutters and you i 15? 14, nearly 15. at that point, | your world shutters and you don't know where you will move next. fortunately i went to an open trial date with kidderminster harriers and i got in at that time, played for them for a couple of years and it got to the point where in the 90s it was a youth training scheme and i was a youth training scheme and i was on the edge of being offered that and i turned it down myself. i think to the horror of my dad at the time because for me i always had the impression that it wasn'tjust time because for me i always had the impression that it wasn't just about talent, and as the previous caller said, he had late developers and players that develop at different times, ios got the impression it was sometimes whether your face fit or whether you was one of the players he was confident or the well—known

one if you like around the club and what have you and i made the decision at that time to actually not take on the youth training scheme and actually go through the educational route instead and then i just played football for my college and i was fortunate that i played for non—league teams as well. but then my career, i went into teaching, a pe teacher, the amount of boys i thought they were on the books of professional football clubs, just had this sole focus on being a footballer, and at times having to sit them down and say look, you need to have that plan b and thing to fall back on because unfortunately only a minute percentage of players that go through the youth teams and into reserve teams for the 23 is and things like that make it. but because they see the stars on tv constantly that is their dream and

thatis constantly that is their dream and that is what they want. but coming back to the point, this thing that trent alexander—arnold is doing now, i think if that was around years and years ago it would have been brilliant and it is a really good thing to do now because these kids only know one thing, football. they dedicate their lives and their families dedicate their lives. fight and they are treated like princes, thoroughbreds. that and they are treated like princes, thoroughbreds.— and they are treated like princes, thoroughbreds. and they are treated like princes, thorouahbreds. ., ., , ., thoroughbreds. that moment when you were jettisoned. _ thoroughbreds. that moment when you were jettisoned, when _ thoroughbreds. that moment when you were jettisoned, when they _ thoroughbreds. that moment when you were jettisoned, when they don't - were jettisoned, when they don't want you, i bet you remember that moment. , ., ., , moment. vividly. one of the most weird things— moment. vividly. one of the most weird things i _ moment. vividly. one of the most weird things i remember- moment. vividly. one of the most weird things i remember is - moment. vividly. one of the most| weird things i remember is walking out of that room and being handed a bottle of full fat milk because that was what we were given when we were applied. you try you would have a bottle of full fat milk, it was bizarre, because i don't like milk.

i was absolutely devastated because again for me it was going back to school which i was at anyway, but then having to tell my schoolmates i have been released. i had this little white fa book and i had to log every single game i was playing, if it included school games, playing for the county, whatever it was, i thought to log these because i was only allowed to play a certain amount of games in a season. i look back and i think i wasn't able to play in that game because i had a game at the weekend for this club or wasn't allowed to play in that game because, and ifeel like at wasn't allowed to play in that game because, and i feel like at times part of my enjoyment school football and playing with my mates was taken away from me because i had that stream of being a professional footballer. it is a brutal world. there are no ifs and buts about

that. thankfully i have been able to carry on and have a good career in teaching and i am no longer doing that but i have been able to educate the young lads i have taught and almost refocused them away from not necessarily being so focused on football but having that fallback as well at making sure they put their effort into their studies. it is well at making sure they put their effort into their studies.— effort into their studies. it is a treat effort into their studies. it is a great insight- _ effort into their studies. it is a great insight. we _ effort into their studies. it is a great insight. we will - effort into their studies. it is a great insight. we will be - effort into their studies. it is a great insight. we will be with | effort into their studies. it is a - great insight. we will be with andy in preston. first of all some breaking news. the train drivers union aslef has announced its members will hold fresh strikes in their long—running dispute over pay. there will be three strike dates announced, including the date of the fa cup final on during the third between manchester united and

manchester city at wembley. more on that when we get it and we will tell that when we get it and we will tell that to you. you can look now online on bbc news as well. brian, thank you. what about that, andy, what happened to your sons? bath you. what about that, andy, what happened to your sons? both have 'ust been happened to your sons? both have just been released _ happened to your sons? both have just been released in _ happened to your sons? both have just been released in the - happened to your sons? both have just been released in the past - just been released in the past couple — just been released in the past couple of— just been released in the past couple of weeks from an academy in the north—west. it has been a serious — the north—west. it has been a serious test of parenting skills. how— serious test of parenting skills. how old — serious test of parenting skills. how old are they? 12 serious test of parenting skills. how old are they?— serious test of parenting skills. how old are they? 12 and 14. the 12-year-old _ how old are they? 12 and 14. the 12-year-old was _ how old are they? 12 and 14. the 12-year-old was released - how old are they? 12 and 14. the - 12-year-old was released completely 12—year—old was released completely out of _ 12—year—old was released completely out of the _ 12—year—old was released completely out of the blue. the 14—year—old we have _ out of the blue. the 14—year—old we have an _ out of the blue. the 14—year—old we have an idea — out of the blue. the 14—year—old we have an idea but the 12—year—old was released _ have an idea but the 12—year—old was released out— have an idea but the 12—year—old was released out of the blue. something

i released out of the blue. something l brought— released out of the blue. something i brought up with the club, i have no qualms— i brought up with the club, i have no qualms about him being released, it is their— no qualms about him being released, it is their decision and that is it, you can — it is their decision and that is it, you can rant— it is their decision and that is it, you can rant and rave, but you struggle — you can rant and rave, but you struggle not to come across as a bit apparent _ struggle not to come across as a bit apparent but ultimately that is the decision, — apparent but ultimately that is the decision, sometimes your face doesn't — decision, sometimes your face doesn't fit, not suited to your plans, — doesn't fit, not suited to your plans, but— doesn't fit, not suited to your plans, but my biggest issue was the way these _ plans, but my biggest issue was the way these clubs to release some of the young — way these clubs to release some of the young kids, doesn't seem to have moved _ the young kids, doesn't seem to have moved on _ the young kids, doesn't seem to have moved on from 20 years ago. from r an's moved on from 20 years ago. from ryan's experience? _ moved on from 20 years ago. from ryan's experience? the _ moved on from 20 years ago. from ryan's experience? the mental - moved on from 20 years ago. from i ryan's experience? the mental health site with these _ ryan's experience? the mental health site with these young _ ryan's experience? the mental health site with these young lads, _ ryan's experience? the mental health site with these young lads, if- ryan's experience? the mental health site with these young lads, if you - site with these young lads, if you have _ site with these young lads, if you have not— site with these young lads, if you have not prepared your kids and told them _ have not prepared your kids and told them they— have not prepared your kids and told them they need another plan, the chances _ them they need another plan, the chances of— them they need another plan, the chances of them making it are very slim, _ chances of them making it are very slim. enjoy— chances of them making it are very slim, enjoy the experience while you are there _ slim, enjoy the experience while you are there but it probably won't last. _ are there but it probably won't last, prepare them properly. i know

some _ last, prepare them properly. i know some parents don't but we have always _ some parents don't but we have always been realistic with both our lads and _ always been realistic with both our lads and said just enjoy the experience and that is it. but still the way— experience and that is it. but still the way that the youngest one was released _ the way that the youngest one was released was shocking. it was really poor _ released was shocking. it was really poor i_ released was shocking. it was really poor ijust— released was shocking. it was really poor. ijust had a text message, coming — poor. ijust had a text message, coming into— poor. ijust had a text message, coming into a meeting at the end of training, _ coming into a meeting at the end of training, they said i am sorry but we are _ training, they said i am sorry but we are releasing him. i had questions and points to make which they couldn't answer, a couple of weeks _ they couldn't answer, a couple of weeks before he had been asked to play with— weeks before he had been asked to play with the other team because he had been _ play with the other team because he had been doing so well, he had got his reviews— had been doing so well, he had got his reviews were pretty good, nothing — his reviews were pretty good, nothing to indicate he would be released. — nothing to indicate he would be released, so if theyjust sit a month— released, so if theyjust sit a month ago we are struggling with him and we _ month ago we are struggling with him and we don't think he is growing or adopting _ and we don't think he is growing or adopting i— and we don't think he is growing or adopting i would have said that is

fine, _ adopting i would have said that is fine, but — adopting i would have said that is fine, but for a 12—year—old boyjust to be _ fine, but for a 12—year—old boyjust to be pulled — fine, but for a 12—year—old boyjust to be pulled in was heartbreaking. lots of— to be pulled in was heartbreaking. lots of tears. it to be pulled in was heartbreaking. lots of tears-— lots of tears. it was. it was literally _ lots of tears. it was. it was literally like _ lots of tears. it was. it was literally like he _ lots of tears. it was. it was literally like he had - lots of tears. it was. it was literally like he had been i lots of tears. it was. it was - literally like he had been knocked down _ literally like he had been knocked down by — literally like he had been knocked down by a — literally like he had been knocked down by a bus. it hit him so hard. it down by a bus. it hit him so hard. itjust— down by a bus. it hit him so hard. itjust shocked me down by a bus. it hit him so hard. it just shocked me that the club didn't— it just shocked me that the club didn't understand what the problem was. didn't understand what the problem was they— didn't understand what the problem was. theyjust couldn't see what they— was. theyjust couldn't see what they had — was. theyjust couldn't see what they had done wrong. you have to prepare _ they had done wrong. you have to prepare a — they had done wrong. you have to prepare a 12—year—old boy is better than prepare a12—year—old boy is better than that— prepare a12—year—old boy is better than that in— prepare a 12—year—old boy is better than that in this day and age. what to him? -- — than that in this day and age. what to him? -- what— than that in this day and age. what to him? -- what did _ than that in this day and age. what to him? -- what did you _ than that in this day and age. what to him? -- what did you say - than that in this day and age. what to him? -- what did you say to - than that in this day and age. what. to him? -- what did you say to them? i set them up — to him? -- what did you say to them? i set them up a _ to him? -- what did you say to them? i set them up a lot. _ to him? -- what did you say to them? i set them up a lot. what _ to him? -- what did you say to them? i set them up a lot. what was - to him? -- what did you say to them? i set them up a lot. what was your - i set them up a lot. what was your arentin: i set them up a lot. what was your parenting message _ i set them up a lot. what was your parenting message as _ i set them up a lot. what was your parenting message as a _ i set them up a lot. what was your parenting message as a dad - i set them up a lot. what was your parenting message as a dad to - i set them up a lot. what was your| parenting message as a dad to your boy? _ parenting message as a dad to your boy? they— parenting message as a dad to your boy? they need to do it better. an

awful— boy? they need to do it better. an awful lot _ boy? they need to do it better. an awful lot better. they are in the positions — awful lot better. they are in the positions of holding all the cards. but what — positions of holding all the cards. but what did you say to him on that day, how did you console him? it is not the end — day, how did you console him? it is not the end of— day, how did you console him? it is not the end of the world. you can do whatever— not the end of the world. you can do whatever you — not the end of the world. you can do whatever you want to do. the restrictions applying for an academy and making sure you are on bed early on a saturday night, travelling, the pressure _ on a saturday night, travelling, the pressure you can be under, i said go and enjoy— pressure you can be under, i said go and enjoy yourself, play football with your — and enjoy yourself, play football with your friends, play with your friends' — with your friends, play with your friends' team which he is doing now and he _ friends' team which he is doing now and he loves it. go and do whatever you want— and he loves it. go and do whatever you want to — and he loves it. go and do whatever you want to do, boxing, karate, enjoy— you want to do, boxing, karate, enjoy yourself. you can do anything you want _ enjoy yourself. you can do anything you want it — enjoy yourself. you can do anything you want. it is not in any end of the world — you want. it is not in any end of the world because you have been released — the world because you have been released by an academy. does he still want to _ released by an academy. does he still want to be _ released by an academy. does he still want to be a _ released by an academy. does he still want to be a footballer? - released by an academy. does he still want to be a footballer? the | still want to be a footballer? the ouncest still want to be a footballer? the

youngest one — still want to be a footballer? the youngest one never did i don't think but the _ youngest one never did i don't think but the oldest one who has been released — but the oldest one who has been released was a different kettle of fish, released was a different kettle of fish. we — released was a different kettle of fish, we knew he would take it really — fish, we knew he would take it really badly which he has done. that is where _ really badly which he has done. that is where me — really badly which he has done. that is where me and my wife were really sort of _ is where me and my wife were really sort of concerned of how he would take it _ sort of concerned of how he would take it and — sort of concerned of how he would take it. and how we would bring him round _ take it. and how we would bring him round and _ take it. and how we would bring him round and we have just done it the same _ round and we have just done it the same way — round and we have just done it the same way. we said it is not the end of the _ same way. we said it is not the end of the world — same way. we said it is not the end of the world. he was a very talented footballer, _ of the world. he was a very talented footballer, but one thing a lot of parents — footballer, but one thing a lot of parents don't see coming down the line is— parents don't see coming down the line is once — parents don't see coming down the line is once they get to 13 or 14, have _ line is once they get to 13 or 14, have different bodies grow and mature. — have different bodies grow and mature, my oldest hasn't grown yet but he _ mature, my oldest hasn't grown yet but he was — mature, my oldest hasn't grown yet but he was playing with lads and against — but he was playing with lads and against lads that are bigger than me and i against lads that are bigger than me and i am _ against lads that are bigger than me and i am six — against lads that are bigger than me and i am six foot. they matured differently — and i am six foot. they matured differently so the confidence comes at different stages. i think there

is a lot— at different stages. i think there is a lot to — at different stages. i think there is a lot to be said, i know one or two _ is a lot to be said, i know one or two x _ is a lot to be said, i know one or two x pros— is a lot to be said, i know one or two x pros over the years and most of them _ two x pros over the years and most of them do — two x pros over the years and most of them do not agree with the academy— of them do not agree with the academy system for kids at such a young _ academy system for kids at such a young age — academy system for kids at such a young age because that maturity and puberty— young age because that maturity and puberty and growing hasn't taken place _ puberty and growing hasn't taken place. and it affects people differently. some don't have the confidence that others do, others grow— confidence that others do, others grow to _ confidence that others do, others grow to be — confidence that others do, others grow to be five foot nine at 14 years — grow to be five foot nine at 14 years old _ grow to be five foot nine at 14 years old. the tackles going in her phenomenal. | years old. the tackles going in her phenomenal-— years old. the tackles going in her henomenal. . ., , phenomenal. i remember when i was -la in: phenomenal. i remember when i was playing rugby — phenomenal. i remember when i was playing rugby and _ phenomenal. i remember when i was playing rugby and is _ phenomenal. i remember when i was playing rugby and is facing _ phenomenal. i remember when i was playing rugby and is facing a - phenomenal. i remember when i was playing rugby and is facing a team i playing rugby and is facing a team on a saturday morning and these are monsters, what is going on here, the same age as us and all of a sudden there is a man in the team and the other side. there is a man in the team and the other side-— other side. and see your lining up auainst other side. and see your lining up against some _ other side. and see your lining up against some of— other side. and see your lining up against some of these _ other side. and see your lining up against some of these people -

other side. and see your lining up against some of these people and other side. and see your lining up - against some of these people and you think rightly, some of the boys are looking _ think rightly, some of the boys are looking at— think rightly, some of the boys are looking at the parents thinking they really— looking at the parents thinking they really don't fancy this. it is in english — really don't fancy this. it is in english and british thing, they want the strapping lads who can crunch into a _ the strapping lads who can crunch into a tackle. i think it is into a tackle. ! think it is slightly— into a tackle. i think it is slightly more technically minded in other— slightly more technically minded in other places. slightly more technically minded in other places-— slightly more technically minded in other places. interesting thought. i feel for other places. interesting thought. i feelforyour— other places. interesting thought. i feel for your lads _ other places. interesting thought. i feel for your lads but _ other places. interesting thought. i feel for your lads but you _ other places. interesting thought. i feel for your lads but you sound - feel for your lads but you sound like a brilliant dad. neal in dumfries. good morning. i have spoken to a few people in my time, i was on the books of hibs and rangers and celtic and some of them had positive experiences, some not so, what are your experiences? hal positive experiences, some not so, what are your experiences? not good. eve hinu what are your experiences? not good. eve him i what are your experiences? not good. everything i agree _ what are your experiences? not good. everything i agree with _ what are your experiences? not good. everything i agree with has _ what are your experiences? not good. everything i agree with hasjust - everything i agree with has just been set. i could be on the programme for half an hour about the experiences and stories and all the rest of it.

what's not to be on is the clubs and their scouting systems. —— what's not been touched on. a lot of players assign 300 players at a time so other clubs can't find them. they then weed out the one or two they want to put forward. the problem with that is, it destroys the mental health of youngsters who get cast aside. i have a very good story, exactly what the last caller was saying. without naming clubs, but there was a very good goalkeeper who was 16. part of his contract, by the time he was 17 he had to be a certain height, and he fell off by a couple of millimetres from that height and they binned him. that's how bad it is. height and they binned him. that's how bad it is— how bad it is. what was it like for him? he didn't —

how bad it is. what was it like for him? he didn't leave _ how bad it is. what was it like for him? he didn't leave his - how bad it is. what was it like for| him? he didn't leave his bedroom how bad it is. what was it like for - him? he didn't leave his bedroom for three weeks- — him? he didn't leave his bedroom for three weeks- a _ him? he didn't leave his bedroom for three weeks. a family _ him? he didn't leave his bedroom for three weeks. a family friend - him? he didn't leave his bedroom for three weeks. a family friend of - him? he didn't leave his bedroom for three weeks. a family friend of a - three weeks. a family friend of a friend. he three weeks. a family friend of a friend. �* .. three weeks. a family friend of a friend. �* ., , three weeks. a family friend of a friend. �* .. , , ., ., friend. he didn't leave his bedroom for three weeks. _ friend. he didn't leave his bedroom for three weeks. i'm _ friend. he didn't leave his bedroom for three weeks. i'm going - friend. he didn't leave his bedroom for three weeks. i'm going to - friend. he didn't leave his bedroomj for three weeks. i'm going to throw that straight to martin before we go to the news. that says it all. martin, advocate for after—care. that says it all, he didn't leave his bedroom for three weeks. it really does resonate. i have known a lot of— really does resonate. i have known a lot of players who have been released _ lot of players who have been released from factional academies, or category one, two and three, and it makes— or category one, two and three, and it makes a _ or category one, two and three, and it makes a big difference. it's huge that everyone does more. having a face like _ that everyone does more. having a face like trent will put it out there — face like trent will put it out there. having a face now becomes that taboo — there. having a face now becomes that taboo subject, it actually becomes something people can relate

to hopefully. it's out now and what a job _ to hopefully. it's out now and what a job trent — to hopefully. it's out now and what a job trent is doing by setting this up. a job trent is doing by setting this up and _ a job trent is doing by setting this up and for— a job trent is doing by setting this up. and for kids like that there is hope _ up. and for kids like that there is ho e. .. . up. and for kids like that there is ho e, ., , ., up. and for kids like that there is ho e. .. . ., ., up. and for kids like that there is hoae, ., ., up. and for kids like that there is hoe. ., ., hope. neil has more to say if you can come — hope. neil has more to say if you can come back _ hope. neil has more to say if you can come back after _ hope. neil has more to say if you can come back after the - hope. neil has more to say if you can come back after the news. i hope. neil has more to say if you j can come back after the news. of course. excellent. _ can come back after the news. of course. excellent. thank- can come back after the news. of course. excellent. thank you - can come back after the news. of course. excellent. thank you to i can come back after the news. of- course. excellent. thank you to andy and r an. course. excellent. thank you to andy and ryan- and _ course. excellent. thank you to andy and ryan. and we _ course. excellent. thank you to andy and ryan. and we will— course. excellent. thank you to andy and ryan. and we will talk— course. excellent. thank you to andy and ryan. and we will talk to - course. excellent. thank you to andy and ryan. and we will talk to you - course. excellent. thank you to andy and ryan. and we will talk to you if. and ryan. and we will talk to you if you get in touch, 08085 909693. if you get in touch, 08085 909693. if you send a text, put your name and where you are from on it. here is the news with bethan holmes. the government is preparing to announce the biggest shake—up of gambling laws in nearly 20 years. it's not expected to include bans on gambling sponsorship or advertising, which campaigners have been calling for, but could include checks on gamblers

who lose more than £1000 in a day. foreign secretary james cleverly has warned brits to leave sudan, as he's told the bbc "now is the time to move". there's uncertainty of what will happen when the ceasefire ends tonight. planes are continuing to take off from an airbase outside the capital, khartoum. the neu says while it "regrets" the disruption caused by today's teacher strike in england, staff shortages are causing "wider problems". they've walked out over pay, but say they're supporting arrangements for gcse and a—level students to have revision classes. unions have rejected the latest pay offer, with the government saying the decision on pay will now be made by an independent review body. and spain is set to experience its hottest ever day for the month of april — temperatures could get as warm as 40 degrees. that's 15 degrees higher than normal. that's the news headlines. with the sport, here's katie smith.

liverpool defender trent alexander arnold's told 5 live he wants to help players have a plan b when football doesn't work out. it comes as he launches his new initiative, the after academy focused on providing career opportunities to former academy players who don't make it to the top. he says, "i look back now and i think i sacrificed a lot but all of us did and i'm the only one with something to show for it." alexander—arnold also added he'd rather see arsenal win the premier league this season to shake things up. well, it's looking increasingly unlikely — they stay top of the table but only by two points after their 4—1 humbling at manchester city last night. the champions also have two games in hand. chelsea boss emma hayes says they must expect to suffer at the camp nou later if they're to progress to the champions league final — they're a goal down to barcelona coming into the second leg. barca have two—time ballon d'or winner alexia putellas back from injury for the first time

in 10 months. and britain's kyle edmund is up against former us open champions dominic thiem at the madrid open tennis. andy murray also in action later. we are talking about footballers and how they are very often, some of the stories we are hearing a sound really callous, just discarded, thrown away, we don't need you, you're not good enough, yourface

doesn't fit, some people have said that as well. football, after the dream ends. trent alexander—arnold, a brilliant footballer, has made it big but lots of his friends didn't. he has been talking to 5 live this morning about the initiative he is launching to help academy players who don't make a career in the game, is there an arm around somebody rather than kicking them out. louise hutton, former footballer. rather than kicking them out. louise hutton, formerfootballer. lewis, sorry. hutton, former footballer. lewis, sor . h ., , hutton, former footballer. lewis, sor . �*, ., , , hutton, former footballer. lewis, sor. �*, ., ,, sorry. it's louis, but that's all riuht. sorry. it's louis, but that's all right- third — sorry. it's louis, but that's all right. third time _ sorry. it's louis, but that's all right. third time lucky, - sorry. it's louis, but that's all right. third time lucky, louis. sorry. it's louis, but that's all - right. third time lucky, louis. it's small writing _ right. third time lucky, louis. it's small writing on _ right. third time lucky, louis. it's small writing on this _ right. third time lucky, louis. it's small writing on this screen. - right. third time lucky, louis. it's| small writing on this screen. good to have you. and martin is still with us and we have louise in shrewsbury, hence my confusion. what do you think about what you're hearing so far from callers? it's really powerful. where do you fit into this narrative? i really powerful. where do you fit into this narrative?—

into this narrative? i have three bo s and into this narrative? i have three boys and they — into this narrative? i have three boys and they are _ into this narrative? i have three boys and they are all _ into this narrative? i have three boys and they are all in - into this narrative? i have three | boys and they are all in academy football — boys and they are all in academy football. one was told he wouldn't .et football. one was told he wouldn't get a _ football. one was told he wouldn't get a scholarship so he moved on to another— get a scholarship so he moved on to another academy. get a scholarship so he moved on to anotheracademy. he get a scholarship so he moved on to another academy. he was treated really— another academy. he was treated really well by the academy he was at in finding _ really well by the academy he was at in finding another club to go to. my other— in finding another club to go to. my other two— in finding another club to go to. my other two are in finding another club to go to. my othertwo are in in finding another club to go to. my other two are in an academy still. it is other two are in an academy still. it is all— other two are in an academy still. it is all about opinion, the coach's opinion— it is all about opinion, the coach's opinion at— it is all about opinion, the coach's opinion at the time. i wanted to say. _ opinion at the time. i wanted to say, from — opinion at the time. i wanted to say, from my experience, i opinion at the time. i wanted to say, from my experience, lam opinion at the time. i wanted to say, from my experience, i am under no illusion _ say, from my experience, i am under no illusion any — say, from my experience, i am under no illusion any of my boys will make it as professional footballers. they are there _ it as professional footballers. they are there and enjoying the experience and they have had some really _ experience and they have had some really good experiences. but i do think— really good experiences. but i do think what trent is doing is really good _ think what trent is doing is really good and — think what trent is doing is really good and it is definitely something the academies need to move forward with _ the academies need to move forward with. ,., , the academies need to move forward with. , , , the academies need to move forward with. , . , with. three sons in academy is. wow. do they think — with. three sons in academy is. wow. do they think they _ with. three sons in academy is. wow. do they think they will _ with. three sons in academy is. wow. do they think they will be _ do they think they will be footballers and how do you manage their expectations? i

footballers and how do you manage their expectations?— their expectations? i don't think their expectations? i don't think the do. their expectations? i don't think they do- they — their expectations? i don't think they do. they just _ their expectations? i don't think they do. they just enjoy - their expectations? i don't think| they do. they just enjoy football. they do. theyjust enjoy football. i'm thinking back to when i was kicking a ball around and thinking, i want to be a footballer, i want to be kenny dalglish. it's inevitable if they are at an academy, they can think may be the dreams will come true. .. �* , ., think may be the dreams will come true. ., �* , ~ . true. yeah. but they are very level-headed _ true. yeah. but they are very level-headed about - true. yeah. but they are very level-headed about it, - true. yeah. but they are very level-headed about it, i - true. yeah. but they are very. level-headed about it, i think. true. yeah. but they are very - level-headed about it, ithink. but level—headed about it, i think. but they do— level—headed about it, i think. but they do enjoy it and i think you have _ they do enjoy it and i think you have to — they do enjoy it and i think you have to support them as a parent. it will come _ have to support them as a parent. it will come to— have to support them as a parent. it will come to an end, so you have to prepare _ will come to an end, so you have to prepare them for that. it's really hard _ prepare them for that. it's really hard work — prepare them for that. it's really hard work. i always remember someone saying _ hard work. i always remember someone saying to _ hard work. i always remember someone saying to me. _ hard work. i always remember someone saying to me, who is a coach, a family— saying to me, who is a coach, a family friend, who said they were in an academy— family friend, who said they were in an academy years ago and they said, ialways— an academy years ago and they said, i always say— an academy years ago and they said, i always say to parents be careful what _ i always say to parents be careful what you — i always say to parents be careful what you wish for because it's really— what you wish for because it's really hard work having parents in the academy system because it's a lot of— the academy system because it's a lot of effort and commitment and it takes _ lot of effort and commitment and it takes up _ lot of effort and commitment and it takes up your whole life.— takes up your whole life. sporting mums and _ takes up your whole life. sporting mums and dads, _ takes up your whole life. sporting mums and dads, absolutely. - takes up your whole life. sporting l mums and dads, absolutely. there takes up your whole life. sporting i mums and dads, absolutely. there is

a lot of travelling. do you see other parents where you think, they are too invested in it, who are seduced by it?— are too invested in it, who are seduced by it?- tell- are too invested in it, who are seduced by it? yes. tell me more. you 'ust seduced by it? yes. tell me more. you just see _ seduced by it? yes. tell me more. you just see it. — seduced by it? yes. tell me more. you just see it, don't _ seduced by it? yes. tell me more. you just see it, don't you? the things— you just see it, don't you? the things they— you just see it, don't you? the things they say when you are around the edge _ things they say when you are around the edge of— things they say when you are around the edge of the football pitch. the encouragement, i suppose, they give to their— encouragement, i suppose, they give to their children. it's their life, i to their children. it's their life, i guess — to their children. it's their life, i guess i— to their children. it's their life, i guess. i don't really know what more _ i guess. i don't really know what more i_ i guess. i don't really know what more i can— i guess. i don't really know what more i can say, but you do see that through— more i can say, but you do see that through all— more i can say, but you do see that through all the different age groups that i have been involved with. louis. — that i have been involved with. louis, that's interesting, isn't it? louise sounds like a brilliant mum, keeping their feet louise sounds like a brilliant mum, keeping theirfeet on louise sounds like a brilliant mum, keeping their feet on the ground. and she is making sure, louis, that they enjoy it for its own sake.

yeah, i think that's the biggest part of it. louise sounds like my mum and dad, you have to enjoy it. me and my brothers, all three of us were at academies from a young age. they were very conscious of the fact, are we still enjoying it. my middle brother went in and out of academy football, he tried to tennis then went back to football. the enjoyment is the biggest factor. yes, a very small percentage will make it to the top, you have to have that awareness, they might make it in the football league. but also not getting too bogged down and focused on it. but also enjoying it as a kid must be the biggest thing, that's the most important aspect of it all. louise, that's it. you are playing football, love it.— louise, that's it. you are playing football, love it. yeah. and when ou see football, love it. yeah. and when you see them _ football, love it. yeah. and when you see them on _ football, love it. yeah. and when you see them on the _ football, love it. yeah. and when you see them on the pitch - football, love it. yeah. and when you see them on the pitch and i football, love it. yeah. and when i you see them on the pitch and they have a _ you see them on the pitch and they have a smile on their face and they are happy. — have a smile on their face and they are happy, that's what it's all about —

are happy, that's what it's all about it's _ are happy, that's what it's all about. it's about enjoying it, enoning _ about. it's about enjoying it, enjoying the moment. my middle son has been _ enjoying the moment. my middle son has been in _ enjoying the moment. my middle son has been in ten different countries playing _ has been in ten different countries playing football now, so that experience, he may never have got if he hadn't _ experience, he may never have got if he hadn't been in the academy football— he hadn't been in the academy football system. there are lots of negatives — football system. there are lots of negatives but also lots of positives as well _ negatives but also lots of positives as well. ~ .. .. . . negatives but also lots of positives as well. ~ .. ., , , ., as well. what happened to you, louis, as well. what happened to you, louis. when _ as well. what happened to you, louis, when it _ as well. what happened to you, louis, when it ended, _ as well. what happened to you, louis, when it ended, and - as well. what happened to you, - louis, when it ended, and something else begun?— else begun? absolutely. i was at brentford when _ else begun? absolutely. i was at brentford when it _ else begun? absolutely. i was at brentford when it eventually - else begun? absolutely. i was at i brentford when it eventually ended and they released me. lathl’hal brentford when it eventually ended and they released me.— brentford when it eventually ended and they released me. what did they sa and and they released me. what did they say and how — and they released me. what did they say and how did _ and they released me. what did they say and how did they _ and they released me. what did they say and how did they do _ and they released me. what did they say and how did they do it? - and they released me. what did they say and how did they do it? to - and they released me. what did they say and how did they do it? to be i say and how did they do it? to be fair, i say and how did they do it? to be fair. i was — say and how did they do it? to be fair. i was on _ say and how did they do it? to be fair, i was on the _ say and how did they do it? to be fair, i was on the way _ say and how did they do it? to be fair, i was on the way back- say and how did they do it? to be fair, i was on the way back from i fair, i was on the way back from swansea from an away match and had a chat with the coach. he said to me, what's your plan for next season and i said, i will wait to see if i get a new contract here and if i do i will take it. if i don't then i will probably go back to college. i was

leaving school at 16, and the coach looked at me and said, you won't be getting a contract here i looked at him and laughed and sniggered and said, looks like i'm going to couege said, looks like i'm going to college then. that's quite a brutal way of doing it, i think. however, it's not always quite like that. i had a good relationship with the coach at the time. it felt like a normal conversation although looking back it was a pretty brutal way of getting told you're not getting a contract. ., ., , ., contract. remind me how old you were. i contract. remind me how old you were- ithink— contract. remind me how old you were. ithink i _ contract. remind me how old you were. i think i was— contract. remind me how old you were. i think i was 20. _ contract. remind me how old you were. i think i was 20. yeah, - contract. remind me how old you were. ithink i was 20. yeah, i. contract. remind me how old you. were. ithink i was 20. yeah, iwas 20 at the — were. ithink i was 20. yeah, iwas 20 at the time. — were. ithink i was 20. yeah, iwas 20 at the time. it _ were. ithink i was 20. yeah, iwas 20 at the time. it was _ were. ithink i was 20. yeah, iwas 20 at the time. it was a _ were. ithink i was 20. yeah, iwas 20 at the time. it was a bombshelli 20 at the time. it was a bombshell on the way home.— 20 at the time. it was a bombshell on the way home. obviously brentford football club — on the way home. obviously brentford football club are _ on the way home. obviously brentford football club are not _ on the way home. obviously brentford football club are not here _ on the way home. obviously brentford football club are not here to _ on the way home. obviously brentford football club are not here to give - football club are not here to give their side of it. but it's an interesting bit of psychology from the coach in that situation as you describe it. wrapping it up in banter. .. .. ~ ., describe it. wrapping it up in banter. .. .. ,. banter. yeah, and i think, to be fair, banter. yeah, and i think, to be fair. and — banter. yeah, and i think, to be fair. and l _ banter. yeah, and i think, to be fair, and i work _ banter. yeah, and i think, to be fair, and i work a _ banter. yeah, and i think, to be fair, and i work a bit _ banter. yeah, and i think, to be

fair, and i work a bit with - fair, and i work a bit with brentford now and they were in the middle of restarting their academy. there is so much focus now on what they will do for the after—care of they will do for the after—care of the lads and i think that's a massive change. i hadn't been in football for ten years and it's a big change. the amount of conversations around, how will we support players after. that's from really young, up to the b team, what can be put in place and what things can be put in place and what things can they access and what help can be given for that access. there has been a big change in football in the last few years in thought for that after—care. last few years in thought for that after-care— after-care. mark is in reading, hello. hello. _ after-care. mark is in reading, hello. hello. and _ after-care. mark is in reading, hello. hello. and neil- after-care. mark is in reading, hello. hello. and neil has- after-care. mark is in reading, | hello. hello. and neil has some stories to _ hello. hello. and neil has some stories to tell. _ hello. hello. and neil has some stories to tell. we _ hello. hello. and neil has some stories to tell. we heard - hello. hello. and neil has some stories to tell. we heard about | hello. hello. and neil has some stories to tell. we heard about the goalkeeper who didn't make it because he wasn't tall enough and locked himself in his bedroom for three weeks. we will have another one from neil in a second who worked in kids football for 20 years. mark,

what's your experience in the at times pretty brutal approach? it is ve brutal times pretty brutal approach? it is very brutal and — times pretty brutal approach? it is very brutal and i _ times pretty brutal approach? it is very brutal and i can relate to a lot of— very brutal and i can relate to a lot of the — very brutal and i can relate to a lot of the things that were said before, — lot of the things that were said before, particularly neil and the thing _ before, particularly neil and the thing about size because that's why my son _ thing about size because that's why my son was — thing about size because that's why my son was eventually released. what i my son was eventually released. what i wanted _ my son was eventually released. what i wanted to _ my son was eventually released. what i wanted to bring up, when the boys or girls _ i wanted to bring up, when the boys or girls are — i wanted to bring up, when the boys or girls are trying to earn their scholarship, it's in the year they are doing — scholarship, it's in the year they are doing their gcses and the whole focus _ are doing their gcses and the whole focus is _ are doing their gcses and the whole focus is on — are doing their gcses and the whole focus is on that and not their gcses, — focus is on that and not their gcses, meaning education is suffering. particularly at one of the club — suffering. particularly at one of the club is _ suffering. particularly at one of the club is my boy was that, because he was _ the club is my boy was that, because he was in _ the club is my boy was that, because he was in three different academies, when _ he was in three different academies, when it— he was in three different academies, when it came to that time they told him they— when it came to that time they told him they were going to release him, so he _ him they were going to release him, so he really— him they were going to release him, so he really didn't care about the gcses _ so he really didn't care about the gcses all— so he really didn't care about the gcses. all that was on his mind was finding _ gcses. all that was on his mind was finding a _ gcses. all that was on his mind was finding a new club.—

finding a new club. what was that like for your— finding a new club. what was that like for your son? _ finding a new club. what was that like for your son? it _ finding a new club. what was that like for your son? it was - finding a new club. what was that like for your son? it was very - like for your son? it was very difficult for _ like for your son? it was very difficult for him. _ like for your son? it was very difficult for him. his - like for your son? it was very difficult for him. his mentall like for your son? it was very - difficult for him. his mental health suffered _ difficult for him. his mental health suffered very badly. to the point where _ suffered very badly. to the point where at — suffered very badly. to the point where at times he was depressed. the club didn't— where at times he was depressed. the club didn't help at all because at that point— club didn't help at all because at that point they are supposed to let them _ that point they are supposed to let them know at a certain time they will release them to give them an opportunity to find a new club, but what _ opportunity to find a new club, but what this— opportunity to find a new club, but what this particular club did, they wouldn't — what this particular club did, they wouldn't give him his release papers and times— wouldn't give him his release papers and times were ticking on when other clubs were _ and times were ticking on when other clubs were signing up players. he didn't— clubs were signing up players. he didn't care — clubs were signing up players. he didn't care a jot about his exams. eventually— didn't care a jot about his exams. eventually l — didn't care a jot about his exams. eventually i had to sneak into the academy— eventually i had to sneak into the academy to get those papers so he could _ academy to get those papers so he could go— academy to get those papers so he could go to another club. and these kids all of a — could go to another club. and these kids all of a sudden _ could go to another club. and these kids all of a sudden life _ could go to another club. and these kids all of a sudden life is _ could go to another club. and these kids all of a sudden life is a - could go to another club. and these kids all of a sudden life is a void. i kids all of a sudden life is a void. it's empty. we have heard some

tragic tales, desperate and heartbreaking tales of some boys taking their own lives. but in any way, their lives are empty. what do i do and what is the road ahead? i can tell you how some of them deal with those — can tell you how some of them deal with those voids. i was a... you would _ with those voids. i was a... you would be — with those voids. i was a... you would be surprised how many boys end ”p would be surprised how many boys end up in gangs _ would be surprised how many boys end up in gangs and getting led astray. they have — up in gangs and getting led astray. they have lost the structure, the discipline and the self esteem. exactly. luckily my son has a strong family— exactly. luckily my son has a strong family and _ exactly. luckily my son has a strong family and backing behind him so he thankfully— family and backing behind him so he thankfully got into an apprenticeship now. he is successful in his— apprenticeship now. he is successful in his own _ apprenticeship now. he is successful in his own right and can still play sunday— in his own right and can still play sunday league football, which he enjoys _ sunday league football, which he enjoys now, but there was a period of a year— enjoys now, but there was a period of a year or— enjoys now, but there was a period of a year or so when he was very unhappy. — of a year or so when he was very unhappy. we of a year or so when he was very unha - . ~ . .. of a year or so when he was very unha.- .. ,

of a year or so when he was very unha--. . unhappy. we can bring neil back in, in dumfries- — unhappy. we can bring neil back in, in dumfries. we _ unhappy. we can bring neil back in, in dumfries. we heard _ unhappy. we can bring neil back in, in dumfries. we heard from - unhappy. we can bring neil back in, in dumfries. we heard from him - in dumfries. we heard from him before the news. a triumphant return fact at ub have been listening, though. —— a triumphant return!. but you have been listening. though. -- a triumphant return!. but you have been listening.— you have been listening. everything that has been _ you have been listening. everything that has been said _ you have been listening. everything that has been said has _ you have been listening. everything that has been said has been - you have been listening. everything that has been said has been nailed | that has been said has been nailed absolutely. the point i want to get across is the clubs, and nobody has really touched on it. the mental health issue with the kids is a major thing for me because they are being devastated left, right and centre. but it's the clubs' fault because they allow scouts to sign 200, 300 kids because they allow scouts to sign 200,300 kids at a time. and they are being paid on three orfour of them making it. so they sign anybody they can, which stops them playing for schools, stops their enjoyment of the game, they hardly get a game.

everything is training. but it's all for financial benefit for scouts. and that's from the scottish end of things. i don't know so much about the academy side of things in england. but to me it all sounds exactly the same. i am personally aware of six suicides because of the way guys have been dealt with. and it is probably more. it is heartbreaking. and the way they are being dealt with is disgusting. it really is. they are not even being told they aren't coming back. if you don't get a letter or a phone call, you are not coming back. i don't get a letter or a phone call, you are not coming back.- don't get a letter or a phone call, you are not coming back. i have a premier league _ you are not coming back. i have a premier league response - you are not coming back. i have a premier league response in - you are not coming back. i have a premier league response in a - you are not coming back. i have a - premier league response in a second. pete is in beckenham. good morning. what do you have to say about this? just for me, it is something quite poignant — just for me, it is something quite poignant because i was a football

coach _ poignant because i was a football coach for— poignant because i was a football coach for more than 20 years. i had a young _ coach for more than 20 years. i had a young lad — coach for more than 20 years. i had a young lad who played for me in my under— a young lad who played for me in my under 11s— a young lad who played for me in my under 11s side locally, in a local league — under 11s side locally, in a local league. but he was head and shoulders above anybody in the area and the _ shoulders above anybody in the area and the district. what happened was, and the district. what happened was, a premier— and the district. what happened was, a premier league club came along and scouted _ a premier league club came along and scouted him _ a premier league club came along and scouted him and took him at ten years— scouted him and took him at ten years old — scouted him and took him at ten years old to play for their academy. he was— years old to play for their academy. he was promised lots of stuff, things— he was promised lots of stuff, things were going to go well, they spoke _ things were going to go well, they spoke to— things were going to go well, they spoke to the parents and it was all going _ spoke to the parents and it was all going well — spoke to the parents and it was all going well. he got to 12 years old and he _ going well. he got to 12 years old and he was told he hadn't grown at the rate _ and he was told he hadn't grown at the rate they wanted him to grow. his football ability was great but they wouldn't take him forward and they wouldn't take him forward and they wouldn't take him forward and they would release him and drop him from the _ they would release him and drop him from the academy. there was no after-care. — from the academy. there was no after—care, there was nothing given to him _ after—care, there was nothing given to him or— after—care, there was nothing given to him or his— after—care, there was nothing given to him or his parents. it wasjust, sorry. _ to him or his parents. it wasjust, sorry. you — to him or his parents. it wasjust, sorry, you haven't met the requirement and we are letting you no.

requirement and we are letting you go he _ requirement and we are letting you go he was — requirement and we are letting you go. he was the best in the district, and he _ go. he was the best in the district, and he was — go. he was the best in the district, and he was known by everybody. actually— and he was known by everybody. actually at — and he was known by everybody. actually at 12 years old he got so disillusioned, and his parents had to support — disillusioned, and his parents had to support him, that he left football— to support him, that he left football and he has never played football— football and he has never played football since because of that one experience. he was probably good enough _ experience. he was probably good enough to— experience. he was probably good enough to go if not premier league then into _ enough to go if not premier league then into the lower leagues, but the whole _ then into the lower leagues, but the whole thing was crushed in one fell swoop _ whole thing was crushed in one fell swoop. what it can do to young kids, and as— swoop. what it can do to young kids, and as a _ swoop. what it can do to young kids, and as a coach, and child welfare, it frightens — and as a coach, and child welfare, it frightens me and it's getting worse — it frightens me and it's getting worse nowadays. and it frightens me and it's getting worse nowadays.— it frightens me and it's getting worse nowada s. . �*, ., ., worse nowadays. and it's not about bein: a worse nowadays. and it's not about being a erling _ worse nowadays. and it's not about being a erling haaland, _ worse nowadays. and it's not about being a erling haaland, is— worse nowadays. and it's not about being a erling haaland, is it? - worse nowadays. and it's not about being a erling haaland, is it? it's i being a erling haaland, is it? it's about doing it for yourjob. about doing it for your 'ob. that's riuht. it's about doing it for your 'ob. that's right. as a t about doing it for your 'ob. that's right. it's a complete _ about doing it for yourjob. that's right. it's a complete end. - about doing it for yourjob. that's right. it's a complete end. if- about doing it for yourjob. that's right. it's a complete end. if any| right. it's a complete end. if any of our— right. it's a complete end. if any of ouriobs — right. it's a complete end. if any of ourjobs if we were told immediately, that's it, you're not good _ immediately, that's it, you're not good enough, we might get sacked, but with— good enough, we might get sacked, but with a _ good enough, we might get sacked, but with a young child who is 12 years _ but with a young child who is 12 years old — but with a young child who is 12 years old and doesn't have life experience, being told he has this

dream _ experience, being told he has this dream at — experience, being told he has this dream at ten and at 12 he will not have _ dream at ten and at 12 he will not have that — dream at ten and at 12 he will not have that dream, because he was so disillusioned he left football. it wasn't — disillusioned he left football. it wasn't a — disillusioned he left football. it wasn't a case of looking elsewhere. it wasn't a case of looking elsewhere. it was _ wasn't a case of looking elsewhere. it wasiust. — wasn't a case of looking elsewhere. it wasjust, it's wasn't a case of looking elsewhere. it was just, it's too much. wasn't a case of looking elsewhere. it wasjust, it's too much. and his parents _ it wasjust, it's too much. and his parents were _ it wasjust, it's too much. and his parents were distraught. and it wasjust, it's too much. and his parents were distraught.- it wasjust, it's too much. and his parents were distraught. and it can be a wrong — parents were distraught. and it can be a wrong decision, _ parents were distraught. and it can be a wrong decision, an _ parents were distraught. and it can be a wrong decision, an arbitrary i be a wrong decision, an arbitrary decision, because it's not a science. decision, because it's not a science-— decision, because it's not a science. ., ., ., ., ~ science. no, not at all. and mistakes — science. no, not at all. and mistakes are _ science. no, not at all. and mistakes are made. - science. no, not at all. and mistakes are made. i'm - science. no, not at all. and mistakes are made. i'm not science. no, not at all. and - mistakes are made. i'm not saying he would _ mistakes are made. i'm not saying he would have _ mistakes are made. i'm not saying he would have made it to the premier league _ would have made it to the premier league or— would have made it to the premier league or as a professional footballer, but the skill he had and what he _ footballer, but the skill he had and what he possessed, everybody in the borough. _ what he possessed, everybody in the borough, and a lot of people and a lot of— borough, and a lot of people and a lot of scouts were saying he could be the _ lot of scouts were saying he could be the real— lot of scouts were saying he could be the real deal. he went to a premier— be the real deal. he went to a premier league club and it finished and it— premier league club and it finished and it literally disillusioned him and it literally disillusioned him and that— and it literally disillusioned him and that was the end of his footballing career. to and that was the end of his footballing career.- and that was the end of his footballing career. to hear people sa that footballing career. to hear people say that you _ footballing career. to hear people say that you could _ footballing career. to hear people say that you could be _ footballing career. to hear people say that you could be the - footballing career. to hear people say that you could be the real - footballing career. to hear people | say that you could be the real deal as well, that will inflate those

dreams. . �* . �* as well, that will inflate those dreams. .. �*. ~ , ., , dreams. that's right. and similarly he wasn't allowed _ dreams. that's right. and similarly he wasn't allowed to _ dreams. that's right. and similarly he wasn't allowed to play - dreams. that's right. and similarly he wasn't allowed to play for - dreams. that's right. and similarly he wasn't allowed to play for any i he wasn't allowed to play for any league. — he wasn't allowed to play for any league, he wasn't allowed to play for me _ league, he wasn't allowed to play for me or— league, he wasn't allowed to play for me or anybody because he was locked _ for me or anybody because he was locked into — for me or anybody because he was locked into a contract with that club _ locked into a contract with that club and — locked into a contract with that club and they didn't want him doing any more _ club and they didn't want him doing any more so the only football he had done was _ any more so the only football he had done was at — any more so the only football he had done was at that level, and he was coping _ done was at that level, and he was coping with — done was at that level, and he was coping with it great but it was the pressure — coping with it great but it was the pressure of that and not being able to, pressure of that and not being able to. as _ pressure of that and not being able to, as someone said earlier, enjoy the game — to, as someone said earlier, enjoy the game it— to, as someone said earlier, enjoy the game. it was pressure, pressure. he was— the game. it was pressure, pressure. he was taking it well but then he wasjust— he was taking it well but then he wasjust dropped. we he was taking it well but then he was just dropped.— he was taking it well but then he was just dropped. wasjust dropped. we have some statements- _ wasjust dropped. we have some statements. neil— wasjust dropped. we have some statements. neil saunders, - wasjust dropped. we have some statements. neil saunders, the i statements. neil saunders, the premier league director of football, says ensuring the academy experience is a life enriching one for every employer is a key part of taking a broader view of success. notjust judging the success of the system by those players who go to the first team but also what destination those players go on to have beyond playing. around 16% of the academy workforce have experienced the academy as a player and those lived experiences can support the

developers of young people. that's the premier league to stop the efl spokesperson has said, not all young players who come through academies will succeed in getting a professional contract or having a prolonged professional career, but provisions are in place to help prepare each individual for a provisions are in place to help prepare each individualfor a life outside professional sport, equipping them with the skills and knowledge needed to succeed in other areas. we are committed to ensuring the evolvement in academy system is a safe and positive experience for all. charlie, good morning. goad all. charlie, good morning. good mornin: , all. charlie, good morning. good morning. how— all. charlie, good morning. good morning, how are _ all. charlie, good morning. good morning, how are you? - all. charlie, good morning. good morning, how are you? i'm - all. charlie, good morning. good morning, how are you? i'm fine. | morning, how are you? i'm fine. barrow-in-furness, _ morning, how are you? i'm fine. barrow-in-furness, what - morning, how are you? i'm fine. i barrow-in-furness, what happened morning, how are you? i'm fine. - barrow-in-furness, what happened to barrow—in—furness, what happened to your lad. he barrow-in-furness, what happened to our lad. ., ., ,~' barrow-in-furness, what happened to our lad. ., ., ., ., ., your lad. he got asked to go to another club... _ your lad. he got asked to go to another club... don't _ your lad. he got asked to go to another club... don't mention l your lad. he got asked to go to - another club... don't mention them 'ust in another club... don't mention them just in case- — another club. .. don't mention them just in case- ls— another club... don't mention them just in case. is it _ another club... don't mention them just in case. is it a _ another club... don't mention them just in case. is it a big _ another club... don't mention them just in case. is it a big club? - another club. .. don't mention them just in case. is it a big club? it's- just in case. is it a big club? it's a league _ just in case. is it a big club? it's a league 1 _ just in case. is it a big club? it's a league 1 club. _ just in case. is it a big club? it�*s a league 1 club. he was asked three orfour years ago to a league 1 club. he was asked three or four years ago to go for trials with their academy, which he did. he didn't get into the academy but they asked him to stay on with a development team and train with them

every week, which is great. but now you have to pay to train with the development team. i think it's more of a moneymaking exercise to get money into the club rather than realistically a child having any chance of actually playing or getting into an academy or playing professional football. the players are good but i don't think they are good enough at that level. i don't think clubs... i know they are struggling for money at that level, but i think part of the reason they string them along is to make money from them. do string them along is to make money from them. ,. ~' , string them along is to make money from them-— from them. do you think they string them alon: from them. do you think they string them along too _ from them. do you think they string them along too often? _ from them. do you think they string them along too often? definitely, . them along too often? definitely, with some of _ them along too often? definitely, with some of them _ them along too often? definitely, with some of them they _ them along too often? definitely, with some of them they do, - them along too often? definitely, with some of them they do, i - them along too often? definitely, i with some of them they do, i would say. my little lad is 11 and he still thinks he can be a professional footballer. he still thinks he can be a professionalfootballer. he might professional footballer. he might prove professionalfootballer. he might prove me wrong and he might be one one day but at the moment i don't think he will be. but i think the clubs string to many of them along

and there is too much heartbreak for and there is too much heartbreak for a lot of them. and there is too much heartbreak for a lot of them-— a lot of them. when he says, i can auoin to a lot of them. when he says, i can going to be _ a lot of them. when he says, i can going to be a _ a lot of them. when he says, i can going to be a footballer, _ a lot of them. when he says, i can going to be a footballer, i - a lot of them. when he says, i can going to be a footballer, i want i a lot of them. when he says, i can going to be a footballer, i want to | going to be a footballer, i want to be a footballer, dad, what do you say to him? i be a footballer, dad, what do you say to him?— say to him? i say, if that's what ou say to him? i say, if that's what you want _ say to him? i say, if that's what you want to _ say to him? i say, if that's what you want to do, _ say to him? i say, if that's what you want to do, you _ say to him? i say, if that's what you want to do, you have - say to him? i say, if that's what you want to do, you have to - say to him? i say, if that's what | you want to do, you have to play say to him? i say, if that's what - you want to do, you have to play and train really hard, but at the same time realistically i don't think it will happen. there's only one in every hundred thousand or whatever lads that are playing that will get into a professional team. it’s into a professionalteam. it's difficult to — into a professionalteam. it's difficult to say _ into a professional team. it's difficult to say that, isn't it? into a professional team. it's. difficult to say that, isn't it? it is hard, because he just lives and is hard, because hejust lives and breathes football. you is hard, because he 'ust lives and breathes football._ breathes football. you can't say ou're breathes football. you can't say you're not _ breathes football. you can't say you're not good _ breathes football. you can't say you're not good enough. - breathes football. you can't say you're not good enough. you i breathes football. you can't say i you're not good enough. you can't say you're — you're not good enough. you can't say you're not _ you're not good enough. you can't say you're not good _ you're not good enough. you can't say you're not good enough - you're not good enough. you can't say you're not good enough and i l say you're not good enough and i would never tell my child or any child you're not good enough. you have to encourage them to do the best they can but i think a lot of it, at certain levels it will be down to moneymaking for clubs.

martin herdman, moneymaking for clubs, there is so much money in it they kind of lose the plot a little bit. , ., ., ., ., y bit. there is a lot of money in the to clubs bit. there is a lot of money in the top clubs but _ bit. there is a lot of money in the top clubs but you _ bit. there is a lot of money in the top clubs but you go _ bit. there is a lot of money in the top clubs but you go down - bit. there is a lot of money in the top clubs but you go down into i top clubs but you go down into league! top clubs but you go down into league 1 and league 2 and most of them are cash—strapped so if they can charge x amount of pounds to 30 kids each term to train for them and say, you are training with the development team and our coaches and in future you might get into our team, all of a sudden... it’s in future you might get into our team, all of a sudden...- team, all of a sudden... it's a business _ team, all of a sudden... it's a business in — team, all of a sudden... it's a business in itself. _ team, all of a sudden... it's a business in itself. it _ team, all of a sudden... it's a business in itself. it is. - team, all of a sudden... it's a business in itself. it is. that'si team, all of a sudden... it's a i business in itself. it is. that's a lot of money — business in itself. it is. that's a lot of money going _ business in itself. it is. that's a lot of money going into - business in itself. it is. that's a lot of money going into that i business in itself. it is. that's a l lot of money going into that club without much of a realistic chance of anything happening. fits without much of a realistic chance of anything happening.— of anything happening. as neil in dumfries said, _ of anything happening. as neil in dumfries said, it _ of anything happening. as neil in dumfries said, it is _ of anything happening. as neil in dumfries said, it is often - of anything happening. as neil in dumfries said, it is often done i of anything happening. as neil in dumfries said, it is often done in | dumfries said, it is often done in bulk. martin herdman, a former premier league coach, it's about managing expectations, isn't it, and

that's the club is as parents. are the clubs doing that enough? i think eve club the clubs doing that enough? i think every club is — the clubs doing that enough? i think every club is different _ the clubs doing that enough? i think every club is different but _ every club is different but absolutely i think as soon as, and my experience is, when the player comes— my experience is, when the player comes in. — my experience is, when the player comes in, the first conversation you have _ comes in, the first conversation you have is. _ comes in, the first conversation you have is. you — comes in, the first conversation you have is, you are almost getting that stat, have is, you are almost getting that stat. 0~01% — have is, you are almost getting that stat, 0.01% make it to the first team — stat, 0.01% make it to the first team you _ stat, 0.01% make it to the first team. you try to reiterate it as much — team. you try to reiterate it as much as— team. you try to reiterate it as much as you can as a coach, enjoy the experience because you don't know— the experience because you don't know how— the experience because you don't know how long it will last. but every — know how long it will last. but every player does believe that this is for— every player does believe that this is for ever — every player does believe that this is for ever-— every player does believe that this is for ever. ~ ., ., ,. , . , ., is for ever. who makes the decision ultimately? — is for ever. who makes the decision ultimately? it's _ is for ever. who makes the decision ultimately? it's a _ is for ever. who makes the decision ultimately? it's a collective - ultimately? it's a collective decision- — ultimately? it's a collective decision. each _ ultimately? it's a collective decision. each club - ultimately? it's a collective| decision. each club probably ultimately? it's a collective - decision. each club probably does it differently — decision. each club probably does it differently but it is a multidisciplinary team, and it's probably— multidisciplinary team, and it's probably how many coaches, and sometimes you have part—time coaches at the _ sometimes you have part—time coaches at the clubs _ sometimes you have part—time coaches at the clubs. some people are electricians through the day, and then at— electricians through the day, and then at 5.30 they turn up to coach in the _ then at 5.30 they turn up to coach in the evening. it depends on the

size of— in the evening. it depends on the size of the — in the evening. it depends on the size of the club. in category three you might — size of the club. in category three you might only have a part—time coach _ you might only have a part—time coach doing six or seven hours a week _ coach doing six or seven hours a week if— coach doing six or seven hours a week if you _ coach doing six or seven hours a week. if you are academy one you have _ week. if you are academy one you have full—time coaches. it depends. the coaches — have full—time coaches. it depends. the coaches that have the eyes on it are the _ the coaches that have the eyes on it are the ones— the coaches that have the eyes on it are the ones who have the best sense — are the ones who have the best sense. then you look at the sports science. _ sense. then you look at the sports science. the — sense. then you look at the sports science, the clubs are massive now, you have _ science, the clubs are massive now, you have sports science data, snc data. _ you have sports science data, snc data. how — you have sports science data, snc data, how quick they can run over 20, data, how quick they can run over 20. 30. _ data, how quick they can run over 20. 30. 40 — data, how quick they can run over 20, 30, 40 yards. what's different at the _ 20, 30, 40 yards. what's different at the younger ages, when they grow and change, at 13, 15, 16. but at the older— and change, at 13, 15, 16. but at the older age it's a lot more science _ the older age it's a lot more science but at the younger ages... we are _ science but at the younger ages... we are out— science but at the younger ages... we are out of time. can we have a quick answer, is there a player who has been released and you have thought, they shouldn't have been the top split decision time. probably, yeah. it the top split decision time. probably, yeah.— the top split decision time. probably, yeah. it is a tough business _ probably, yeah. it is a tough business and _ probably, yeah. it is a tough business and a _ probably, yeah. it is a tough business and a tough - probably, yeah. it is a tough i business and a tough decision. probably, yeah. it is a tough - business and a tough decision. what a great line—up of calls. thank you

for getting in touch over the two hours. thank you for watching and listening. this is bbc news. outbreaks of violence threaten sudan's 72 hour ceasefire — as governments continue trying to repatriate their citizens. as more people arrive here in cyprus to safety, the uk foreign secretary says now is the time to move the british government unveils tougher rules on gambling companies — to tackle smart—phone problem—betting. and the spanish government issues emergency heat stroke warnings — as forecasters predict the hottest ever april day.