this is bbc news. we will have the headlines and all the main news stories for you at the top of the hour as newsday continues straight after hardtalk. welcome to hardtalk from berlin, i'm stephen sackur. vladimir putin's all—out invasion of ukraine delivered the mother of all political shocks to germany's elite. suddenly, russian energy supplies could not be relied upon, and germany's traditional foreign policy—making principle — putting business first, not military power — well, suddenly it looked like weakness. chancellor olaf scholz promised dramatic change.

my guest is state secretary for economic cooperation niels annen. so, has germany got a new strategic vision? niels annen, welcome to hardtalk. thank you. pleasure. well, it's great to be here. let's start with the war in ukraine. i think there's no doubt that putin's invasion of ukraine shocked germany. would it be fair to say it has also destabilised germany? no, i don't think so. but it certainly shocked germany because a lot of our economic model was based on the assumption that we would continue using cheap russian natural gas.

and it was also based in a kind of historic, should i say, historic experience that although russia was a competitor and an enemy in the cold war, it was always also, in economic terms, a quite reliable partner. and i think that was somehow, you know, seen as a constant policy. and we did not really realise that it's not the soviet union any more. it's a brutal dictator and an unpredictable dictator. but what you've just described is a very big deal. you've just told me that one of your key economic planks was taken away, that reliance on russian energy. and at the very same time, one of your geopolitical core assumptions was also put in the trash can. i would put it to you that given those two elements, germany is still trying to figure out where to go. yeah, but you asked me

about whether it was destabilising germany, and my answer is clearly no. we here in berlin, wejust overcame a very difficult winter. we were able in record time to substitute for russian gas and oil, especially oil. we have been, if you are familiar with german politics and the way decision—making is quite a complicated business here, we have been able to build the first lng terminal. so, yes, we have the chancellor's speech about zeitenwende indicating a fundamental shift in many policy fields. ah... germany is a stable and economic prosperous country. well, it's one thing using words, it's another delivering actions. you're absolutely right, olaf scholz, chancellor, he talked about the zeitenwende, the turning point, the major dramatic shift in germany's geopolitical thinking. he talked about it in the days after

the russian invasion of ukraine. i was there! but here we are, more than a year later. what has he actually delivered in terms of this zeitenwende? because if we look first at the military and security policy, lots of talk about massive new investment in the german military, but we don't see any sign of it. well, you need to look very carefully at what we did. i'm hearing that argument a lot from our opposition. but in all politeness, i have to be very clear, zeitenwende was not only a speech, it is a fact that germany is now a leading supporterfor ukraine in terms of military aid, in terms of financial aid. germany, and it was a bipartisan vote by the way, took a decision to invest massively in our underinvested armed forces. it was an extra budget that we have been able to bring together with 100 billion. and we took the first concrete, the first concrete decisions. for example, it was not possible for previous governments to make a decision

about the next—generation fighterjet. we bought that. we signed the contracts with the united states. here is what the parliamentary commissioner for the armed forces, eva hogl, said just the other day. quote, "not a single euro or cent has yet been spent "from this 100 billion euro "special investment fund that schulz created "to create a new german military." yeah, that's. .. i like eva very much and... it doesn't matter whether you like her or not! no, no, no, no. isn't she telling the truth? yeah. but you know, if you sign a contract to buy the most sophisticated fighterjet available on the market, you pay the money when you receive the fighter jet. so this is a rather theoretical question, and it also has to be said that the 100 billion extra budget is for the next years. exactly. so, if i may, we saw that we need to give a fundamental new way of funding

to what the armed forces need. so, so the question how much is spent today is not indicating about decisions, hard decisions that germany has made. right, but we can at leastjudge intent on the basis, for example, of the defence budget, and the defence budget for this year is not going to get anywhere close to germany's promise to meet the 2% of gdp defence spending commitment that nato expects. in fact, your defence spending, right now, is pretty much the same as it was last year. yeah, i would dispute the message behind that discussion that we're having a lot here in germany, because the way that we choose, that the chancellor made clear with the zeitenwende speech, is undeniably that we will reinvest in our armed forces. and we have issues... but that's words, that's words. it's not words.

we have issues with the way the armed forces, in a very bureaucratic set of institutions, sometimes competing institutions, are able to implement that. but there is no doubt that we are going into that direction. and there is an additional burden for what we have to do right now. we are... we have an armed forces, brave men and women who are great soldiers, but haven't received the necessary funding. so now we are giving away some of our most valuable assets to help ukraine to defend itself. and so we have to co—ordinate all that. and you will see that within a few years, germany will have the strongest conventional armed forces in europe. that's good for europe, that's good for nato, and that is good for ukraine. chancellor scholz has been clear. his words have been clear. he says putin cannot win. you were very candid with me earlier when you said, "my party, "and indeed germany as a country, for a long time, "had a strategic position which said "a warm and very close economic relationship with moscow "was a good thing for germany."

isn't the truth that inside your own party, the spd, the social democratic party, there are still very significant voices who even now think it is important to maintain an outreach strategy to moscow. well, i don't want to be impolite to what certain members of my party, but i don't see relevant voices. i see, though, that the discussion in my party is still ongoing. well, why haven't you, for example in your party, expelled gerhard schroeder, the man who as chancellor and then after being chancellor of germany was a friend of vladimir putin, who ended up on the board of rosneft, one of the biggest russian energy companies, who was an architect of the nord stream strategy of bringing more and more russian gas into germany... 7 i expected you to ask that question... but...

well, what's the answer? what's the answer? no, the answer is quite, quite simple. there was an intent to throw him out of the party, but the party is a democratic body with an independent party jurisdiction, and the attempt was not successful. isn't there a major lesson from germany's overreliance over decades on russian energy? that overreliance is a risk. and the other area where germany appears to be falling into a trap of overreliance is overreliance on china trade, china's economic power as a market. yeah, i think, for the first part of your question, the answer is yes. and it's interesting — if you look, who were the few, i have to say, few leaders

in germany who have been asking, for example, a couple of years ago, to take government money, public money, to subsidise the building of an lng terminal, to give us an option to become more independent and open up the market, the german gas market. that was former mayor of hamburg 0laf scholz, and he repeated that as the finance minister. well, that may have been... yeah, no, no, but this is an important part. that was rejected not only by the majority of the political class, but including the german business community. but 0laf scholz is also the chancellor who went to china late last year with a whole team of businesspeople, who expressed his deep desire to see an ever—deeper trading relationship with china, which of course is germany's absolutely most important trading relationship. and he went there having just signed off on a chinese company buying 25% of the operator

of the port of hamburg. against the advice... ok, i hate to correct you. as politicians, we're always advised not to criticise journalists, but your question, i think, deserves some reframing, because first and foremost, the business community... and i am a social democrat, i'm from the left political spectrum here. but i have to defend some of the business leaders because the association of german businesses reversed the china strategy, but it doesn't mean that they could completely ignore china. so, and the second part of your question, the 25%, it's not the port of hamburg, it is one of the terminals, one of many terminals. and it's the smaller terminal. and you know what... ..you know what a senior foreign office official in this country said of that? she said it disproportionately increases china's strategic influence over german transport infrastructure.

it's not even... and the deal is not signed yet, by the way... ah, so you think it was a mistake? no, i don't think that. i think that you need to get your...question right, because it's not selling part of the port, it's selling part of that terminal. and that is something that almost all our european neighbours are doing. and so to frame that as selling off anything strategic to china is a bit overblown. and you have not been... well, ijust quoted you... ..i quoted you a senior official at the german foreign ministry. it's not coming from a journalist. and i'm also going to quote you... and you have not been talking about what the chancellor did in china. he talked about ukraine, and he made sure that, for the first time, president xi renounced what president putin scandalously was doing, threatening the use of nuclear weapons. so i think... happy to have that discussion, but we have to bring that together. yeah, the bottom line is there are big splits in germany over china policy. the foreign minister,

ms baerbock, who of course comes from the green party in the coalition, she says, "we can no longer allow ourselves to become "existentially dependent on a country "that doesn't share our values." now, she says that at the very same time as all of these companies, from basf to volkswagen to aldi, are still pouring new investment money into china. so, who's right and who's wrong here? what you quoted, what the foreign minister said, is the german government's position, so i don't see any contradiction. you don't see any contradiction? no, i don't see any contradiction. when 0laf scholz said, quote, "decoupling..." — that is decoupling germany's economy from china's — "..is the wrong answer"? yeah, that's the german government's decision and position, and i'm sure that the foreign minister shares that view. so we all agree that we need to do more to diversify our economies,

but we also agree that decoupling is not a short—term option for the german politics and not for the german businesses, so... yeah, ijust wonder if you think germany runs the risk of not getting it quickly enough, in terms of the need to distance itself economically from china. last point on this — the head of german domestic intelligence just last month said in the bundestag, "china represents "a much greater threat to germany and german security "in the long term than russia. "russia is the storm. "china represents climate change." do you agree? yeah, i agree. and i think you will see that the german government, that's part of our coalition treaty and agreement. we'll present a national security strategy. and after that is done, we will present a china strategy... it seems to me you've got three options.

you can either see china as a partner, you can see it as a competitor, or you can see it, as the phrase goes, a systemic rival. yeah... for you, for you, which is it? no, ithink... you mentioned the three pillars of that strategy, which, by the way, the language you used is the official language that the european union is using in its strategic framework, which germany is supporting. and the question is, "will the strategic rivalry "be the dominating part of that relationship?" that is not for us to decide, but we need to prepare for that and that's what we are doing. you imply that, in that context, it's very much a european decision. so i'm interested to know what you made of the french president, emmanuel macron, going to china and making a point while he was there of saying that europe must reduce its dependency on the united states. he said, "is it in our interest to accelerate a crisis on taiwan?" "no," he said, "the worst thing

would be to think "that europeans become followers on this topic "and take our cue from the united states agenda, "or indeed a chinese overreaction." do you think macron got it right when he went to china? i was a little bit afraid that you would ask me that. i think the crisis in ukraine is applying a lesson to us. there is, right now, no strategic autonomy. europe is crucial...important for ukraine, but without the united states's military capacity and financial capacity, we would not be able to sustain that support for ukraine. so do we need to invest in our own capacities in the long run? certainly, yes. but to imply that there is strategic autonomy around the corner, i think that's an illusion. and that's maybe one of the reasons

why chancellor scholz is working so closely with president biden. that is a real difference between berlin and paris, and that surely means the european union is hamstrung when it comes to projecting a coherent, unified stand on the world stage. i'm maybe a little more optimistic than you, because, as i mentioned, we are very... imean, europe... the european union is a very unique organisation with independent countries, with their own policy tradition, but let us look at the substance. and i am much more optimistic also when it comes to the german—french cooperation on that. yeah, and then let's get to germany and the united states. do you think there is a danger that the united states is exploiting countries like germany right now? if one looks at their inflation reduction act,

for example, and the way in which they are pouring hundreds of billions of dollars into green policies in the united states, which, as it happens, will allow them to favour home—grown car manufacturers, for example, as they develop their electronic vehicle sector — at the expense, probably, of european car manufacturers. yeah, well, ithink within the inflation reduction act, there are elements that are of concern for us, and we see that in certain segments of the german industry, companies are looking at, you know, american offers, maybe even to invest in the united states. so that's the reason why, together with the european commission, we are developing and developing also countermeasures and certain... countermeasures? you mean there's going to be a new era of protectionism across the atlantic?

no, no. that's why i... i hoped that i could finish my sentence, because it's only one part of the inflation reduction act. if we look at that in the whole, we should be maybe happy that — finally, i might say — the united states are stepping up their engagement, investing in green infrastructure and green energy and finally keeping up with the commitments that they signed. so it's a mixed balance, and i think there is more to win, to work together. but the united states, they know that, you know, if they're introducing certain policies, europe as a market, as a common market, is a formidable actor on the global stage. and we made that very clear. before we end, i do want to address something which is very much in your domain as state secretary in this particular ministry, concerned with economic assistance and development around the world. would you accept that the geopolitical rivalries

that we see today and that we've discussed, in terms of reaction and fallout from the ukraine invasion by russia, those geopolitical rivalries and tensions are making economic assistance and the working of the world bank and the imf, as multilateral institutions, more and more difficult? yes, iwould... i would agree. that's one of the reasons why the german government, mr scholz, together with secretary yellen, finance ministerfrom the us, proposed reforms on the world bank to make that institution more efficient. we see that we have increased demands on almost all levels — fighting poverty, the health crisis is not overcome, and we mentioned, i think, in our conversation the climate crisis. so we are in a situation that is quite traumatic and where we need

more international cooperation. well, what is happening is the contrary. so the global political tensions — ukraine, china and another — are making that much more difficult... but here's what the economist magazine says. right now, china is trying to build an alternative global order and america is turning inward. and it is china that appears to be, in a sense, making the weather when it comes to attracting emerging economies to its model. so maybe german soft power isn't working? well, there is a clear challenge. the chinese are trying to compete, also building their own institutions, the brics bank, the new development bank, other development instruments that are trying to compete, you know, with the traditional western bretton woods institutions. we have also reasons to be confident that our system delivers. yes, it's true with the belt

and road initiative, china has been able to — especially in africa but also central asia and other parts of the globe — to leave its footprint. but if you talk to the countries that accepted chinese loans, there's a lot of disappointment. they see that they're getting into a new debt trap. and so we need to be more efficient, we need to be aware that we need to mobilise resources, not only government spending, because that alone will not do the trick. we need to include the private sector. but we also, i think... ..should not copy the chinese system, because then we would repeat the mistakes that the chinese have been doing, for example, in countries in africa but also in other parts of the world. just a few hundred metres from where we sit is one of the big remaining chunks of the berlin wall. it came down in 1989, and it was seen then as a symbol,

i guess, of the triumph of a western idea of liberal democracy and liberal economic management. isn't the truth today that you in germany have to face, just as others in the west have to face, that western assumptions of the triumph of that model were misplaced? well, i think you're mentioning a very important point here. if you follow the german debate — for example, president lula da silva's statements on ukraine, which i don't share — but the german public sometimes seems rather surprised to hear a dissenting voice from the global south. things are changing out there. we still have a lot of influence and respect, what germany is doing

we need to be engaged in an honest dialogue. otherwise, we will not be able to make our argument. the times where everybody was looking north to the rich western countries, looking to imitate our economic and political model, these days are probably over, but that doesn't mean that we cannot build alliances. but you need to be there. and that's why we used our g7 presidency, too, and why it's the south african president, the president from senegal, the indian prime minister and others. and that dialogue is so crucial. and that's why development cooperation maybe is more important than ever in these crazy days. niels annen, we have to end there, but i thank you very much indeed forjoining me on hardtalk. thank you. my pleasure. thank you.

hello. we've seen a lot of cloud again today, with rain developing more widely. there will be some changes in the next few days. tomorrow, a drier day than today and it's warming up a bitjust in time for the bank holiday weekend, although there will be some sharp showers around as well. earlier on today, it was particularly wet in cornwall, an inch of rain falling in places. since then, that heavier rain has pushed through the midlands towards the south—east of england. it's heading up towards east anglia and lincolnshire as well. there'll be a lot of cloud around overnight, but the worst of the rain tending to move away towards the end of the night. it will be a mild start to friday and quite a bit milder than of late actually in scotland. there'll still be some rain left from overnight first thing, especially across northern england. the worst that moves away out into the north sea. we've got some damp weather heading down with that cloud in scotland. the rest of the uk probably brightening up a bit. some sunshine coming through that

could lead to 1—2 showers, particularly in northern ireland. a few heavy ones here in the afternoon. but temperatures are getting up to 16 celsius here and could make 18—19 in the south—east as it brightens up. so, a warmer day, quite widely, compared with today. now, temperatures did get close to a0 celsius in southern parts of spain. we're not tapping into that hot weather. instead, our air is coming more from the azores. it does mean temperatures are going to be higher, but there's still some cold air in place across northern scotland and temperatures will be depressed in scotland and northern england underneath that cloud. england, wales and northern ireland seeing some sunshine, but also a few more showers that could be heavy and thundery. but those temperatures are continuing to rise a bit. could make 20 in the south—east of england, but still only around eight in northern scotland. into sunday, and quite a bit of cloud to come, maybe more showers breaking out, again, some of them heavy with the risk of thunder. wetter weather slides across northern ireland into western scotland.

so temperatures probably won't be quite so high, but still better than we've seen over the past few days. by the time we get to bank holiday monday, this area of high pressure is trying to build in from the atlantic. a little belatedly maybe, but there should be fewer showers around on monday. most of those highlighted there across northern scotland, east anglia and the south—east though one or two could develop elsewhere, but there will be some sunshine around. it's turning drier from the west. the winds will be quite light and temperatures reaching a pleasant 16—17 celsius.

welcome to newsday, reporting live from singapore, i'm karishma vaswani. the headlines. hopes the fragile ceasefire in sudan may be extended, as thousands try to escape. for those who make it out, enormous relief. terrifying. made us lie on the ground. there were so many children and everything. they shot two people. on a state visit to washington a warning from south korea's president that his country will respond firmly to provocations by north korea. as thousands of us and philippine troops take part in one of the largest ever military exercises carried out by both countries we'll take a look at how china's influence is growing in south east asia.