this is bbc news, the headlines: fighting in sudan rages on, as thousands flee the country. the leader of the rsf militia group tells the bbc he won't negotiate until the fighting ends. nurses in england go on strike on sunday night over pay — action that the health service says will cause significant disruption over the bank holiday weekend. russian authorities say a massive blaze at an oil terminal in russian—occupied crimea was triggered by a drone attack. videos on social media show smoke and flames

billowing from the facility in the port of sevastopol. it comes five days after a ukrainian drone attack in the same area. and a threatened strike by us screenwriters demanding more pay could bring hollywood film and television studios to a standstill next week. a may the 1st deadline has been set for an agreement. now on bbc news, talking business. hello, everybody. a very warm welcome to this special edition of talking business weekly with me, aaron heslehurst. let's go take a look at what's on the show. i'm here in rabat — it's the capital of morocco — to look at this country's potential to solve europe's energy crisis. this north african country is making the most of its abundant sunshine and wind to lead the way in renewable energy. but the question is, can morocco turn itself around

from being dependent on, well, this, imported fossilfuels, to being able to export clean energy to europe as we tackle climate change? it's an ambitious plan, so i'm going to be discussing all of that with these three experts. there they are. the big boss of one of africa's largest renewable energy companies, an energy expert from the world bank and a leading moroccan environmental campaigner. also on the show, i'm going to sit down with the moroccan government minister tasked with the mighty challenge of making sure everything is in place for this country to enjoy the abundant wind and sunshine whilst transforming its economy. wherever you'rejoining me from around the world, once again, a big hello and a warm welcome to the show. and i tell you what, it's certainly warm here in morocco�*s capital of rabat. in fact, this is a country that's trying to make the most of its natural resources, including the sunshine, to solve one of the biggest problems

on the planet — energy. that's because everyone wants more of it. and of course, we want to pay less for it. as we know, the war in ukraine has led to big increases in our energy bills at home, as well as the cost of running a business, and politicians, they're trying to work out where it's all going to come from in the long term. did you know that making electricity is the single biggest contributor to global warming? but last year, 39% of the global supply came from clean sources such as wind, solar and nuclear. that's the highest it's ever been. of that, a combined 12% came from wind and solar. and it's in wind and solar that morocco is betting the farm on. and other countries in the region are watching very closely. this north african country, it has an ambitious target of generating 52% of its own electricity from renewables by 2030. it also wants to hugely expand

its exports. there are plans for a cable to send electricity to the uk and as the eu invests billions, to the rest of europe as well. here's the problem. at the moment, morocco depends on imports for 90% of its energy needs. that includes, well, electricity as well as other things such as fuel for vehicles. and most of that is dirty fossil fuels. morocco�*s energy transformation, it has to be said, it's been happening at quite a pace over the last few years, but it needs to get faster still if it's to meet its ambitious targets. so, i pulled together some of the country's leading thinkers to find out what happens next. so, with me now is moundir zniber, the big boss of gaia energy. it's the largest renewables company in morocco, but also a company that develops wind, solar and green hydrogen developments across africa. alsojoining us, moez cherif, the lead energy expert for the region at the world bank.

and last but certainly not least, hajar khamlichi, an activist with the mediterranean youth climate network, also board memberfor the moroccan alliance for climate and sustainable development. all three of you, an absolute pleasure having you on my show. thanks for your time. and moundir, let's start with you, because morocco, here we are in the heart of rabat. morocco is your home country. over the last 15 years, you've been spending a lot of money, investing a lot of money in renewable projects. so let me ask you this, not only in morocco, but across africa, but if we just look at morocco, moundir, paint me a brief picture of some of the developments that you're involved in. and importantly, why morocco? why does this country seem to be one of the countries leading the charge in renewable energy? morocco has truly one of the best solar and wind resource in the world combined. this is the only resource morocco has. don't have oil, we don't have natural gas but we have a potential

thatis natural gas but we have a potential that is amazing. this is the first reason, just a resource reason. this is the only resource morocco has. so we... embrace it. yeah, we need to embrace it. and we have done and we have launched, i mean, very ambitious programmes in order to kept this, this energy. but also morocco, somehow is a bridge. it's a cultural bridge historically between the south countries and the northern countries, between, you know - -— of course, you know, it has a very special place. and more than that, today, i think morocco represents the best opportunity to get out european continent, you know, from dependency it has today from russian gas, because the resource we have here could be one of the big, big answers, part of the answer of the european demand. so coming back to our activities we're working on. very large scale projects. wind, but onshore. then we have, let's say, medium size infrastructure projects between 50 to 200 megawatt, pv and wind. and then you have the most, let's say, smaller ones

between i to 3 megawatts and it's more kind of rooftop business. moez, let me come to you, because the world bank's assessment suggests that despite the, and let's be clear, the enormous costs involved in moving to a low carbon economy, the world bank says that this is actually going to help and grow the moroccan economy. just briefly explain that. the energy transition in morocco essentially involves a shift from heavy reliance on fossil fuels, imported fossil fuels towards renewable energy, and therefore decoupling from this very heavy volatility of the prices of fossil fuels. so, this is the first benefit. secondly, at the world bank, we did a study called the country climate development report, and we estimated the benefits in terms of employment creation.

so we estimated that the energy transition would generate about at least 28,000 newjobs on a net basis per year, which is about 9% of the job deficit here in morocco. and the third benefit, and i would say probably the most important, is how morocco can position itself as an industrial hub for investments, for exports of green industrial products, for example, fertilisers, for example, the car industry. hajar — fabulous, some would say fabulous ambitions, right? how do you balance these incredible ambitions with the fact that still to this day, you're importing dirty fossilfuels? there is real ambition, an effective one that starts many years ago - in morocco with all this| clean energy transition. but there is concerns -

about the rhythm of this, of the implementation of those strategies. i i think we lost a few yearsl to speed up this transition, but we are seeing now some - promises and some promises also from the government that this transition will be speed up, i speeded up very quickly. but there are tenders out there. there are contracts out there. and i'm looking at some of the details for new offshore natural gas drilling. and yet they've got this huge ambition to be a renewable energy nation. and morocco set the target of 52% from renewables, _ but didn't talk much about the rest of it. | right, 0k. from my perspective, it still, it is very controversial, - as we cannot really mix i the two kind of energies, to go into what's a clean pathway and at the same time... - a little bit of a dirty one. dirty one, yeah.

yet the gas now is like commercialised - and presented as a cleaner... "cleaner", the most cleaner fossil fuel so far~ — but this is not true. and we all know that, it is - very dirty, dirty fossil fuels also. we will be tending _ to invest in heavy infrastructure, heavy gas infrastructure. and it will be very obsolete, because it's very expensive i compared to the costj of renewable energy. 52% is the renewable mix, but it's not the renewable production. so if we come to produce electricity, it's very far from 52%. we are more with at 20%. then when we take oil, let's be very clear. we cannot accuse morocco, it's a global addiction. no, absolutely. this is very important. but morocco is putting itself out on the global stage as a renewable nation. we cannot mix... we cannot replace today fossil fuels by renewables. it's very clear, it's impossible, let's not lie. and if morocco find gas, it will be very happy to have natural gas, because why?

because the objective of any country, you know, is to have energy sovereignty. this is very important. and we are seeing what's happening today with the war in ukraine. energy sovereignty is in the middle of all the discussions. so, morocco needs a mix. renewables are part of the solution on the electric side. i do agree 70%, - but i have 30% reserve, because yes, gas is intended in morocco _ for phasing out the coal. still in my view, - we have a lot of potential that we can raise the ambition . of renewable energy in morocco, more than what is actually done and to less up this potential. i i would be the first happy, it's more business for us. yeah, well, of course. but moundir has a point, hajar, right? i mean, 0k, you're a climate activist, but moundir�*s point is, we can never get away, probably, from some form of fossil fuels to make up part of this mix.

l i believe that fossil fuels have no i bright futures among us, worldwide. yes, we will be still using it. yes, we will be starting to phase it down - in order to phase out completely. when you look at the numbers, in terms of c02 when you look at the numbers, in terms of co2 emissions, this wonderful country, the moroccans, they actually are responsible for significantly less than pretty much the whole world. they are below the global average. the whole world. they are below the globalaverage. so the whole world. they are below the global average. so why, with what's happening here, why is that so important?— happening here, why is that so imortant? , ., ., , important? morocco is a relatively small country _ important? morocco is a relatively small country on _ important? morocco is a relatively small country on the _ important? morocco is a relatively small country on the world - important? morocco is a relatively small country on the world stage, | small country on the world stage, and it's_ small country on the world stage, and it's relatively industrialised but not — and it's relatively industrialised but not so industrialised, so i think— but not so industrialised, so i think that _ but not so industrialised, so i think that explains why the contribution to the global carbon emissions — contribution to the global carbon emissions are not so high. i wanted to come _ emissions are not so high. i wanted to come back to the issue of the energy— to come back to the issue of the energy transition. precisely the term _ energy transition. precisely the term transition means that it's

going — term transition means that it's going to — term transition means that it's going to be a gradual process. we talk about, — going to be a gradual process. we talk about, in our analysis of the world _ talk about, in our analysis of the world bank, showed you can decarbonise the moroccan economy gradually, — decarbonise the moroccan economy gradually, by the 20 50s. but this is a fairly— gradually, by the 20 50s. but this is a fairly long time. so right now, you know. — is a fairly long time. so right now, you know, morocco is reliant more than _ you know, morocco is reliant more than 90%— you know, morocco is reliant more than 90% on— you know, morocco is reliant more than 90% on fossil fuels, so it will be a gradual process. there may be a transition _ be a gradual process. there may be a transition role for natural gas in that process and then you build up your renewable energy, then because of the _ your renewable energy, then because of the intermittency, mean, the sun is not _ of the intermittency, mean, the sun is not always— of the intermittency, mean, the sun is not always shining, the wind is not always— is not always shining, the wind is not always blowing, so you need to firm it _ not always blowing, so you need to firm it up. — not always blowing, so you need to firm it up, you need to invest in storage — firm it up, you need to invest in storage technology, which is expensive. so this is why, this is going _ expensive. so this is why, this is going to — expensive. so this is why, this is going to be — expensive. so this is why, this is going to be a gradual process that will happen over two, three decades. also, _ will happen over two, three decades. also, green— will happen over two, three decades.

also, green hydrogen will play an important — also, green hydrogen will play an important role. we know that the moroccan government are undertaking a set of reforms just to make business and investment in this country easier. these reforms, do they go far enough to attract foreign investment into morocco? is it helping you as a company? it is evolving solely for us, of course we would wish that it was faster, but when you compare morocco to the rest of the continent, morocco is doing very good. rest of the continent, morocco is doing very good-— doing very good. from the perspective _ doing very good. from the perspective of _ doing very good. from the perspective of the - doing very good. from the perspective of the world i doing very good. from the - perspective of the world bank, doing very good. from the _ perspective of the world bank, these reforms, do they go far enough to attract foreign investment into morocco? and should other countries be watching morocco closely? morocco, you know, was an early mover in the renewable energy scene. but we believe it can go further. as we were saying, i mean, the investments that you will need in renewable energy, in storage, in green _ renewable energy, in storage, in green hydrogen etc, they're quite massive — green hydrogen etc, they're quite massive. and the bulk can indeed

come _ massive. and the bulk can indeed come from — massive. and the bulk can indeed come from the private sector. but in order— come from the private sector. but in order to _ come from the private sector. but in order to attract that private sector on such— order to attract that private sector on such a — order to attract that private sector on such a massive scale, i think the government— on such a massive scale, i think the government can and should undertake some reforms, for example... government can and should undertake some reforms, for example. . .- some reforms, for example... further reforms? yes. — some reforms, for example... further reforms? yes. in _ some reforms, for example... further reforms? yes, in the _ some reforms, for example... further reforms? yes, in the electricity - reforms? yes, in the electricity sector, reforms? yes, in the electricity sector. it _ reforms? yes, in the electricity sector. it can — reforms? yes, in the electricity sector, it can really _ reforms? yes, in the electricity sector, it can really make - reforms? yes, in the electricity sector, it can really make sure| reforms? yes, in the electricity - sector, it can really make sure that the electricity grid is fully open and well— the electricity grid is fully open and well regulated for the private sector— and well regulated for the private sector producers to be able to wield their power— sector producers to be able to wield their power to the grid at different voltage _ their power to the grid at different voltage levels. some efforts can be made _ voltage levels. some efforts can be made at _ voltage levels. some efforts can be made at making the cost and the tariffs _ made at making the cost and the tariffs of — made at making the cost and the tariffs of electricity transparent and fully — tariffs of electricity transparent and fully cost reflective. and also, the need _ and fully cost reflective. and also, the need to develop the wholesale market _ so in terms of lessons learned

for other developing countries, i would say, definitely, you need, you know, strong political will and direction at the very highest level of the state. i mean, this has been a key strength in in morocco. and secondly, i would say the government has to put in place the right targets for decarbonisation, the right objectives and the right policies, you know, to have a good investment environment, but then, let the private sector come, take risks and make technology choices. what is really missing is the liberalisation of the markets. and i think it's a win—win situation for everybody. we would have access to the cheapest possible green electricity in the world and green derivatives, because if we liberalise the market in morocco, it's notjust for morocco, we would be a net exporter of green electrons, green fuels, green hydrogen to europe

and the rest of the world. so, you know, it's a shift, it's a major... absolutely. but i wish we get there. and if we get there, you will see that morocco would become one of the leaders in the world. ok, but let me just restate those targets. the moroccan government has this ambition of 52% of morocco's own electricity coming from renewables by 2030 — seven years away! but even his majesty king mohammed vi and his government says there's a need to... he said this, there's a need to speed things up. is that target achievable? i mean, it's more than achievable. i will give you numbers just in order for the audience to understand. when we speak about... don't confuse the folks. yeah, of course. no, i'm not trying to confuse you. when we speak about green hydrogen, you know, the calculation, eu has released a very clear road map. it needs 20 million tonnes of green hydrogen from here today to 2030. 10 million needs to be imported. those 10 million tonnes of green

hydrogen would represent 20 times the installed capacity of electricity in morocco. and i'll tell you about the projects we are developing. it's real projects. we have a project that could provide 3—4% to all the electricity needs of germany, exporting green electricity. we have another project that gaia is developing that could provide 4% of all italy energy needs, electricity needs. and in terms of green hydrogen, we have six projects our company is developing that could answer to 25% of the needs of eu. this is what really puzzled me. so, morocco, great ambitions provide over 50% of electricity from renewables and then start shipping to europe. and you're like, well, hang on. why don't you, you know, have it 100% at home first? any surplus — because what's the business sense behind that? no, of course there's a huge business sense. you delocalise and you bring a huge industry and huge investment to the country. it's huge benefits for everyone. you create jobs. if you have enough take, you know, from, let's say, a very large consumer in europe

that is bankable in 25 years, you can easily finance your projects and then maybe a part you can ship to morocco. but even the industries in morocco are not ready to consume green hydrogen. so i don't think we should confuse that, we could do both — it's two different markets. i believe we should fulfil the needs domestically, | then think of exporting it. that's mandatory. i mean, it's not either/or. i think you can try to do both. i mean, by exporting, as moundirwas saying, you can reach larger scale, you can reduce the cost. so, ideally, i mean, you should do both. but you should not come i mean, morocco — but you should not come i mean, morocco has a big young population, you need _ morocco has a big young population, you need to — morocco has a big young population, you need to create jobs locally, you need _ you need to create jobs locally, you need to _ you need to create jobs locally, you need to create value. so it would be a loss _ need to create value. so it would be a loss if— need to create value. so it would be a loss if morocco chose, you know, to use _ a loss if morocco chose, you know, to use most — a loss if morocco chose, you know,

to use most or all of its renewable energy— to use most or all of its renewable energy and — to use most or all of its renewable energy and export it rather than develop — energy and export it rather than develop industry locally. i think that would be a loss. well, on that point, moundir, a real pleasure, was a pleasure. always a real pleasure. moez, a real pleasure, and hajar, thank you so much for coming on. good luck with everything. and i tell you what, we'll check in with you soon. 0k, perfect. 0k. thank you. all right- _ this country's ambitious energy transformation plans were first laid out by king mohammed vi back in 2009. and whilst the huge 0uarzazate solar power plant has been up and running since 2016, this government is acutely aware it has its work cut out if it wants to meet its commitment. and that commitment — the majority of its own electricity coming from renewable sources by 2030. so i've come here to catch up with the minister in charge of making all of that happen. let's go and have a chat. leila benali, morocco's minister of energy transition and sustainable development. an absolute pleasure to have you on the show, leila. and let's start with this. let's start with. ..

just briefly outline, if you will, the government's plans when it comes to this energy transition, generating renewable sources and also exporting it, because that's a big part of the plan, right? good morning, aaron, and welcome to morocco. 0ur energy strategy is really based on three pillars, and i like to call it the triangle. and myjob is to ensure that the triangle stays stable in time. so indeed, the first pillar of our energy strategy is really ramping up renewables. so we exceeded our 40% target of installed capacity based on renewables last year. now we are heading towards our new target of 52% of installed capacity based on renewables before 2030. pillar number two is energy efficiency, and we try to be very efficient in the way we produce, we transport and we consume energy. and the third key pillar is regional and international integration in international markets.

seven years from now, morocco is aiming to have its own electricity, 52% of electricity from renewable sources. i mean, that's a tight timeframe. but, and correct me if i'm wrong, but earlier this year, you told a session in parliament that there was a need to speed up this transition. what do you need to speed up and how are you going to do that? speeding up is a challenge that several countries are facing, especially those countries like morocco, who are really progressive in their energy strategy and green in their energy strategy. so, speeding up is related to, first, some of the challenges that we are facing internationally. i mean, remember, we cannot do this out of a vacuum. the world is just coming out from not only a couple of years of a historic pandemic, a total dislocation of supply chains and value chains, affecting also renewable energy as well,

the way we trade solar panels and windmills. but we also have some internal challenges, including speeding up and streamlining bureaucracy. and that's something that in many countries you notice, you need to have access to land permits relatively fast to ensure that investors get access to the opportunities that they want. you also need to ensure that you put the investments that you need in the grid. leila, let me ask you this about something that i'm not struggling with, but ijust want your answer, because before you even reach providing your people with 100% renewable electricity, before you do that, you want to start exporting some of that energy. why do that before providing moroccans with 100% renewable electricity? 0ur position today is to say, let's ensure that we are on both sides of the mediterranean

for our populations in africa and europe. we are taking advantage of this historic opportunity to take advantage of that additional trade. and as i said earlier, there is a lot of empowerment that comes with trade. absolutely. it boils down to energy security and energy access more than making sure that we want to export any forms of energy. so that's why, if i take concrete example of how we are monetizing some of our gas resources, for example, of course we want to enable investors, particularly international and national private investors, to be able to monetize their electrons or their molecules as much as possible. but at the same time, of course, the priority is to ensure that moroccans and people living in morocco and people working in morocco, and the economic tissue of morocco has access to the lowest costs,

most economic green energy. i mean, that's priority number one. i've got to ask you this, because, and correct me if i'm wrong here, but morocco at this moment has contracts out there, tenders out there to drill for natural gas, offshore, off your coast. that's a fossil fuel. how do you square that with this incredible ambition? for morocco, it's a very easy question to square. there is no balance to find, because morocco has always been a net fossil fuel importer. but we are not your traditional fossil fuel exporter who would need to balance that with the renewable plants in the country. those two basins that we are trying to develop, we are trying to push primarily for morocco's domestic need because we have a power sector today that is craving gas. i think today for energy security, i think the world has realised

that we need to get away from coal and get away from more polluting heavy fuel oil and other fossil fuels. we need gas in the system. and also, why we need gas is because if we want to exceed 50% of our installed capacity based on renewables, we need to handle the internal intermittency of renewables in the system. the world bank's recent report on morocco says that your government has a limited amount of cash to play with. and i am just wondering if you believe the funding, enough funding is going to be there to fulfil this ambition you have? i really don't think funding is the issue. and first, i'll remind you, aaron, of the other big commitment of the new development model is that the government and the state should not be the one investing primarily in infrastructure and energy projects, especially when those projects are bankable.

you're saying it's private sector. it's primarily the private sector that we take most of the investments. 0ur role as a government is to ensure that we facilitate the investor story and we facilitate the access to investment opportunities and make sure that we cut through the bureaucracy and red tape. i think it's high time to ensure that the private sector takes the technology risks and the types of risks that they are able to manage. well, on that point, minister leila benali, an absolute pleasure having you on the show. thanks very much. good luck with everything and i'll check in with you soon. aaron, thank you so much for the show and welcome to morocco. well, that's it for this special edition from rabat here in morocco. i hope you enjoyed it. don't forget, you can keep up with the latest on the global economy on the bbc website or the smartphone app. of course, you can also follow me on twitter — tweet me, i'll tweet you back! you can get me at @bbcaaron. thanks for watching. i'll see you soon. bye—bye.

live from london. this is bbc news. fighting in sudan rages on, as the militia group leader tells the bbc he won't negotiate until the violence ends. russian authorities say a massive blaze at an oil terminal in russian—occupied crimea was triggered by a drone attack. all four teaching unions in england say they will co—ordinate strikes over pay, if their members vote for industrial action. and how the city of liverpool is preparing to welcome the lgbt+ community during eurovision.

it's become increasingly clear the ceasefire in sudan is not holding.