this is bbc news. we'll have all the headlines and the latest stories at the top of the hour straight after hardtalk. welcome to hardtalk, i'm stephen sackur. finding your voice as a writer, cutting through the cacophony of noise in 21st century culture is not easy. what you want to watch on tv? my guest today has a different take, jerry springer is the king of —— the

king of trash talking television in the united his show specialises in dysfunctional relationships and sex, his gas curse and throw chairs and sometimes fight, critics criticised but it has made him famous and rich, so does he care? jerry springer, welcome to hardtalk. thank you for having me. it is pretty incredible, your showing cincinnati 20 years ago made you famous round the world and it is still going across america and internationally, how come? probably because it has _ internationally, how come? probably because it has a _ internationally, how come? probably because it has a niche. _ internationally, how come? probably because it has a niche. when - internationally, how come? probably because it has a niche. when it - because it has a niche. when it first came on, at least in the states, i can only speak about what goes on in the people that are on

my, whether it was friends or seinfeld or whatever, always well scrubbed people speaking the queens english and all in 1991, we come on the show with people that don't speak the queens english, that maybe weren't so lucky in the gene pool of parents or whatever, didn't get an education, as much of, what is the same thing that wealthy people wealthy people to hide it better. in other words, the your show, except that people on this show that you

think they are morally superior to the people in my show, i would say wrong, wrong, wrong. buti the people in my show, i would say wrong, wrong, wrong.— wrong, wrong, wrong. but i knew missin: wrong, wrong, wrong. but i knew missing out — wrong, wrong, wrong. but i knew missing out one _ wrong, wrong, wrong. but i knew missing out one step _ wrong, wrong, wrong. but i knew missing out one step in _ wrong, wrong, wrong. but i knew missing out one step in your- wrong, wrong, wrong. but i knew missing out one step in your own | missing out one step in your own story and that when you first switched from politics, you were mayor at cincinnati for a while, you did news, straight news, and when you first got your interview show, as i understand it from looking back at the records, it was a pretty serious show. it was more like my show but then you discovered that the best way to get ratings and make money was to dumb it down. {lila the best way to get ratings and make money was to dumb it down. ok, that is actually not — money was to dumb it down. ok, that is actually not accurate _ money was to dumb it down. ok, that is actually not accurate but _ money was to dumb it down. ok, that is actually not accurate but i _ is actually not accurate but i understand what you would think that. the show did change after three years. first of all, let's get the money thing out of the way, you get more money doing an 0prah get more money doing an oprah winfrey type show than doing my show. the other discussion about how to get to the show we had, tell you haveit to get to the show we had, tell you have it happen. at the time we shouted, there were 20 other talk shows on television and every one was trying to be like 0prah, we were

all trying to appeal to the demographic which at that time was referred to as middle—aged house wives. along came ricki lake, she was the first talk show to go after young people, high school and couege young people, high school and college kids. 0ne young people, high school and college kids. one day we were walking down michigan avenue in chicago and i said to him, why are we trying to be one out of 20 shows like 0prah, that is —— let's go after ricky lake's audience and be one of two. the very next week, we set only young people in the audience, young people on a young subject matter. well young people are much wilder in their lives, much more open about their lives, so the show occasionally went crazy. universal bought us and said from now on, you are only allowed to do crazy and that is what our show is. and you accepted the rules. £31 and you accepted the rules. of course i would. you have a choice to

make. why would i quit? i'll tell you what i am interested in. why you decided to go as far down this track as you do. fairly typical of your show, for people who don't know it would be the sort of titles you churned out, pregnant by transsexual, honey, my —— i am a call girl. these are from the 1990s. as your ratings got higher and your audience grew more crazy, you went for shows like i married my horse about a guy who had had a five year four square with a horse. my point is even a lot of the phillies across the united states who took your show couldn't take that once, take that it was too extreme, two of the will. it was. why did you decide that the kind of tv you wanted to make? 1listens

kind of tv you wanted to make? were ou roud kind of tv you wanted to make? were you proud of— kind of tv you wanted to make? were you proud of it? _ kind of tv you wanted to make? were you proud of it? yes, _ kind of tv you wanted to make? were you proud of it? yes, i _ kind of tv you wanted to make? were you proud of it? yes, i am _ kind of tv you wanted to make? ,, you proud of it? yes, lam proud kind of tv you wanted to make? ,, you proud of it? yes, i am proud of my show, why wouldn't i be? because it is stupid. yes, i would say to the stupid show but for one hour, it is an escape from regular life. here is an escape from regular life. here is what the show is, i am hired to host a show, i don't choose the guests, i am host a show, i don't choose the guests, iam never allowed host a show, i don't choose the guests, i am never allowed to the show is about, i never know what the show is about, i never know what the show is about until i walk in and i hand me card and the card has just the names of the guests, and i am supposed to ask questions that you would ask sitting at home watching and then makejokes. it is not my interest, i don't watch my show, if i could do a show, i would do show on basketball politics, that is my interest, i am on basketball politics, that is my interest, iam hired on basketball politics, that is my interest, i am hired to do a show on my interest. but interest, i am hired to do a show on my interest-— my interest. but you choose to do this show, — my interest. but you choose to do this show, nobody _ my interest. but you choose to do this show, nobody forces - my interest. but you choose to do this show, nobody forces you - my interest. but you choose to do this show, nobody forces you to. l my interest. but you choose to do i this show, nobody forces you to. i'm not this show, nobody forces you to. i“n not saying i shouldn't do it. this show, nobody forces you to. i'm not saying i shouldn't do it. you're l not saying i shouldn't do it. you're tellin: me not saying i shouldn't do it. you're telling me it _ not saying i shouldn't do it. you're telling me it is _ not saying i shouldn't do it. you're telling me it is stupid _ not saying i shouldn't do it. you're telling me it is stupid and -

not saying i shouldn't do it. you're telling me it is stupid and you - telling me it is stupid and you would never watch it yourself, and it does turn the people on the show into freaks and losers, you say it gives them a voice but you make them... ., , ., ., them... you 'ust made them an elitist them... you just made them an elitistjudgment _ them... you just made them an elitist judgment that _ them... you just made them an elitist judgment that you - them... you just made them an elitist judgment that you are . elitist judgment that you are superior to the people on my show. you are educated and have a better life but these people, we are all alike, do not think that well educated people are morally superior in any way to people that are of lower income. for one hour a day, our show is about people that act outrageously. that's what the show is. when you do the news, do you say, "i'm not going to report a murder "because i find murder dysfunctional, "i find murder a horrible thing, "i don't want to be associated with it, "i will not do a show that talks about murder and rape"? you don't say that. that's yourjob to report it. it doesn't mean you endorse it. if myjob is to show dysfunctional behaviour, i dare you to say that a man marrying his horse

is not dysfunctional. but the point is... of course it's dysfunctional. ..the murders reported in the news are real. tragic, but real. yours is a circus show. it is exploitation. but it's real! he's living with... no, they don't get paid. he's living with his horse. you don't think that's real? that's real. trust me. if your kid came home one day and said, "i'm marrying "a horse," you would say, "that's real." you may have found the one human being in the whole of america who thought he had married his horse. but let's not get stuck on the horse. let us watch a clip, a clip from the show, because for people who don't know jerry springer, it may be worthwhile just looking at the style of the show. this particular edition was about transsexuals. it was called "transsexuals attack", and what we're going to see is a woman, a transsexual, who is furious with her boyfriend because he has run off with another gay guy. so let's have a look at the clip. a woman don't conduct theirself like this. awoman... he wants to be a woman! he can't fulfil my shoes i with a lime green shirt on!

he's not... look at this. sound drops out. i mean, he's what... if i wanted a woman... i worked hard. i put time in this relationship. you're going to flush this down the toilet. | you didn't do it by yourself. with that? it takes two. are you going to flush it down the toilet with that? - yeah, of course. of course. crowd react. right. now, you're telling me that that's not real? those people aren't really angry about that? well, that's a great question about honesty and reality. and by the way, let me just explain to everybody watching that the sound dropped out because you do take out all swearing. the show runs during the daytime, so if they use the f—word... there's lots of swearing, but you don't hear it. right. but what you do see is plenty of fighting. and you talk about it being real, it being honest. yeah. you know that back in the late �*90s, i think it was 1998, i think 16 people who'd been on your show then went to the media and said, "you know what? "the fights aren't even real.

we're told when to fight, "how to fight. it is staged." yeah. and, as it was proven, they were wrong. it is not staged. the lawyers are all over it. they made that accusation and, you know, we got duped by them because they made up their stories. so that's how that sometimes happened. but i can tell you, if you come and watch us, before the show starts, they meet in a room with the lawyers. there's a camera on them while they swear that everything that happened, there's documents to show it's true. so, you know, to pick out that in 1998, you know, someone said, you know, they... they said it was staged. yeah, well, none of it's staged. that's wrong. it's not staged. whether an individual guest may be dishonest from time to time... i'm telling you, 114,000 guests, i'm sure... i'm sure someone was on this show and didn't tell the truth and duped you. that doesn't mean don't watch hardtalk any more because people lie on the show. right. you talk to politicians. so it's given that they're not telling the truth. well, politicians may come in to a different category.

but let's stick with what you do and let's talk about vulnerability, because you've said you've had thousands and thousands of guests on the show over the years. you can't even remember how many — so many of them. yeah. there are many people who've been on your show who probably were on your show against their own better interests. how often do your staff, your team of researchers come across a great story, an unbelievable story of emotional turmoil and say, "you know what, we're not going to put you on the tv "because that would be counter to your own interests"? well, quite a few times. we get... i'll tell you exactly what the process is. we get thousands of calls a week from people who want to be on the show, and then they give us the story and the producers and the researchers check to make sure it's a true story. every once in a while, during that interview process, it becomes clear, for example, that a person may not be mentally stable orjust, as you say, really, really vulnerable. and then they don't get on the show. but unfortunately, they sometimes

do get on the show. i mean, i'm thinking about the panitz story. you knew i would... i asked you to ask that question because... which is, fine, ask me anything you want. but the asking of that question assumes, which is exactly what i'm fighting against, it assumes that because a person is of low—income... you in the news would never, ever ask a question about... this is nothing to do with income. this is to do with what happened after one of your shows. let me explain to everybody. yeah. nancy panitz came on the show with her ex—husband, ralf. he was in a new relationship. yes. the new woman came on the show, too. and the new woman and ralf panitz panned the ex—wife, nancy. they called her old, they called her fat. the audience got involved. there was a lot of booing and shouting. nancy panitz went off that show, distraught, apparently, but not so long after, when the show was actually aired on tv, within hours, there had been a murder. and ralf panitz was convicted of murdering nancy panitz.

having exactly nothing to do with the show, which is a part you didn't bother to tell. how do you know? because the court determined. but frankly... i'm answering your question. you ask me how do we know. you just made the inference that because someone was on a show, four months later, they commit a murder, that that has to do with the show. you don't know what happened that day. that day, they got into a big fight over being evicted from a house, which had nothing to do with the television show. if you're asking me if 114,000 people on the show, whether any one of the 114,000 people subsequently ever committed a crime, of course. you give me any population of 114,000 people and i'll tell you, a certain percentage of them will have committed crimes. don't connect it to the show. when the warring couple who ended up in this tragedy after the show was aired, hours after the show was aired, i just wonder whether you sat yourself down and for a moment had

a think about whether it was time to move on to do something else. they were fine when the show ended. you're going back to your assumption, which i'm saying, respectfully, was totally incorrect. you did not mention to the audience what caused the murder. it had... which is four months, four months later. why did...? the murder was born out of a dysfunctional relationship, which you aired on national television. i'm just asking you whether having done that and seen what happened to that couple in the end... it had nothing to do with the show. i'm not respons... excuse me. no, i am not responsible for the behaviour of 114,000 people who, at some time in their life, was on our show. if later on in life, they commit a crime, you're going to say that the reason they committed the crime, because for one hour, for 20 minutes, they were on there, for 20 minutes, they were on a show, which, by the way,

the murder had nothing to do with what they were arguing about on the show. but you just told everyone that our show had something to do with that. that's totally incorrect. i just ask questions. yeah. which is obviously what you do on your show. yeah. but i'm just saying there's no correlation. let me talk about... yeah. ..the course of american culture over 20 years of your programme. when it started, it caused a huge stir because it was, as we've discussed, was doing something different. now, pretty much every nation in the world has what they call reality tv, and gives voices to people that you've said in america for so long were voiceless. that probably isn't so much the case any more. do you think the role that your show played has served its purpose, that it actually isn't the novelty, doesn't have the shock value it used to have? it's not supposed to have shock value. let's say this. we in television get too impressed with ourselves, like, we are really shaping society. let me tell you. human behaviour has not deteriorated

because of television. in fact, i would argue that human behaviour has not deteriorated, period. there is nothing you will ever see on any television show in england and great britain or america or anywhere in the world that is something that hasn't existed for thousands of years. the difference is, 3,000 years ago, people would gather in the marketplace or gather in the town square and they would chat with each other about who was doing what in the neighbourhood. the difference is we now have technology, and technology has made the neighbourhood global. so all of a sudden, and now with kids going with their facebook, going on the internet, with their cellphones, everybody is talking about what they do in their lives, so the whole world knows. the only difference... do they need jerry springer any more to put people on a set in a tv studio? do we need hardtalk any more? it's a great question. i'm just asking. yes! people like... we are social beings. we are fascinated by what other human beings are doing,

but it's not needed. it's television. it's not critical. i love the honesty which you tell me that you wouldn't watch the show and you think the show is stupid. and i want to, if i may, get a little bit personal and reflect on how you feel about a long and successful career doing this show, when, in so many ways, your early years pointed to something else. i mean, you, ithink, were hired to work by bobby kennedy, in �*68, just before he was assassinated. you were a very committed political lawyer, who then turned to politics. you were a progressive, liberal city mayor in cincinnati. you clearly believed in things. still do. you were a passionate progressive. still am. so how do you feel about having spent so long in this particular niche in the tv business? well, the way you ask the question, which is good, you're a great interviewer,

the way you're asking the question, you make it seem like this is something i should feel bad about. i am still as passionate about my politics as i've ever been. and people in the states, particularly in ohio, know that every week, i'm giving political speeches, raising money, organising campaigns. i'm very politically active. so that hasn't changed. i'm just not running for office. but you wanted to change the world? i still do. but that's not how i make my living. in other words, i believe in politics like i believe in my religion. i take it very seriously. i don't want it tainted by the need to make a living. i believe that when politicians have to make a living being re—elected, that you build into it an incentive for at least intellectual dishonesty. if i know that the only way i'm putting food on the table for my family is by winning the election, there's going to be a real incentive for me to say whatever the public wants to hear, whether it's what i honestly feel or not, because i have to win the election. that's how i make my living.

i, early on, decided that my politics would always be pure, that i've never stopped being a liberal, i've never stopped being progressive. but i never... but i always decided i would not make a living at politics. so myjob is being an entertainer. my passion is political, and i'm just as active. i worked tirelessly for barack 0bama, campaigning all around the country for him, contributing a ton of money for him. and i'll do the same for hillary, god bless her. but, yeah. so don't... you can't assume because i have a job... what i find fascinating is, you know, it's a cliche, but the journey of your life, because it is incredible. i mean, people won't know that your parents just, thank god, escaped from nazi europe and that your grandparents did not and were killed in the camps. yes. and i know that you were very close to your parents and in a sense, a lot of your life has been reflecting on what they went through. again, i come back to this point. you know, you have been a huge

success, but were there not other things you really wanted to do in your public life that meant at some point you might want to leave... ..the tv business? no. and i'll tell you why. i'll say it again. i am very active politically. anyone who knows... understood. so i haven't given up on that at all. i just don't run for office. and i'vejust said the reason i don't run... well, i'm 70 now. what's the point? but i don't run for office because that's not how i want to make a living. politics is my religion. it's not my own... i'mjewish. but i mean, it's like a religion to me, is i really believe in liberal causes. and so that's really important to me. i don't compromise on that, but i make my living... how i make money? i'm an entertainer. and why, in a free enterprise system, do i apologise for being an entertainer? but my views...

someone should challenge me on my political views. that's fair, but not because i make a living. listen, let's just, as we close, talk politics a little bit. you've always been very open about maybe your more—left—than—most democratic views. you are very, quote, unquote, "progressive". you've just seen barack 0bama in powerfor what, a term and a half? yes. there are many liberals in america who are disappointed with what 0bama has actually delivered. are you one of them? no. look, would i like him to be successful in every single thing he's in favour of that i'm in favour of? of course. but i realise when you're president of the united states, you're not a dictator and you don't get everything you want, or everything i want. what i'm happy about, on the big issues, boy, he's been a great president. big issues. he came in and he saved the financial system. he saved the auto industry. he saved the economy.

he got us out, almost out, of iraq, out of afghanistan. and now for the first time, embarrassingly, we americans were the last to come to the table with health insurance for all people. so at least now, even though we got off to a sloppy start, in a couple of years from now, all americans will have health insurance. god bless him for that. so i think history will look back and see these achievements and say, "wow, great." is it 100% that he got everything? no, but no president is 100%. so, i'm happy with him. but ijust wonder, and it comes back to this point when we're talking about changing social attitudes. do you think, and surveys would suggest this is true, that america is still a deeply conservative country with a small c? no. we all give conservative speeches, but if you look at how people live, their... liberals always win in the end. i'll say it again. liberals always win in the end. in the beginning, conservatives will fight. conservatives fought against, in america, against social security.

now, no american would even think about going without social security. the conservatives fought against civil rights. now we have an african american president. conservatives fought against women's rights and we may have a woman president. and women have much, much more equality in america now compared to 20, 30 years ago. conservatives fought against gay marriage. now, as you said, over 50% of the country is accepting gay marriage, and it's not even going to be an issue five years from now. liberalism, ultimately, will win, but there'll be battles along the way. if you had your time over again, would you choose to have the political career that you tried to have but in the end didn't go national? or would you still take the deal that you actually have on tv? if god comes to me and says, "gerald...", which is my full name, "..gerald, i will give... you can have another life. "and you can sign—on for the exact life you've had... "..or take your chances

on another one." "god, where do i sign?" i'm the luckiest person in the world. i have no right to complain about anything. i have a privileged, lucky life. and it's... and i say luck. i didn't choose to be born. i didn't choose to whom i'd be born, with what health, with what brain, in what country. the whole bit. i was born here in england, by the way. soi... all of this is a gift. life is a gift. sure, i work hard, but lots of people work hard. but i don't know why i got lucky. but would i sign—on? hell, yeah. jerry springer, it's a great way to end. thank you very much for being on hardtalk. this has been great. thank you. thank you very much.

hello there. sunday brought some pretty warm weather and parts of the uk but it also brought some really heavy downpours. there are some further showers in the forecast for bank holiday monday but equally some spells of sunshine, many of us will again feel relatively warm, but italy in the sunshine but northern parts, particularly scotland will start to churn rather silly because of this cold front. it is no lie much here on the chart, it is going to bring extra cloud, and behind it, it will introduce some chilly air, bitterly across parts of scotland. a bitterly across parts of scotland. a bit of showery rain across eastern parts of england, across england and wales will see scattered showers, they could be heavy and thundery,

they could be heavy and thundery, the south—west of england not seeing too many showers, northern ireland brightening up with some spells of sunshine, most of us temperatures between 1a and 17 degrees. through the afternoon, the temperature is dropping across the northern half of scotland, behind our weatherfront, scotland, behind our weather front, some scotland, behind our weatherfront, some cloud, the odd spot of rain, not much more than a band of cloud back to the north of it it will be a chilly start to tuesday, we could see a touch of frost across some parts of the highlands. the tuesday morning, rather chilly start for many, this band of cloud likely to be left across the uk, may be the odd spot of rain and shower breaking out but most places will be dry and we should see some spells of sunshine, but little in the cool side across north scotland and down the eastern side of england, ten to 12 degrees. even further south and west not as warm as it has been. 0n west not as warm as it has been. on wednesday, patchy rain in northern ireland and western scotland,

showers in the south as the winds pick up through the day. temperatures between ten and 16 degrees. as we head towards the end of the week, we see frontal system squashing them from the south—west, reintroducing the chance for some rain and for a time a brisk easterly breeze which makes it feel rather chilly, particularly for some eastern coast. but through the week, a lot of dry weather for a time through tuesday and wednesday but then turning more unsettled.

welcome to newsday, reporting live from singapore, i'm karishma vaswani. the headlines.. more evacuations by sea of foreign nationals from sudan, as the warring factions allow a ceasefire, so thousands can escape. it's a moment of relief for these people. but also for the sudanese, a very bittersweet moment, because many wonder if they will ever come back. with a just a week to go until the king's coronation, preparations for street parties across the uk are well under way. nurses at some hospitals in england have begun a 28 hour strike. nhs leaders warn the public to use health services wisely.