they could ill afford to lose. the nhs and patients would also have been spared months of disruption. this pay deal must be the start of something new in the nhs. there cannot be a repeat of the past few months. everyone who cares about the nhs deserves better. that means improving the process that sets health worker wages. be ended by saying... "the nhs remains desperately short of staff too. services can only cope with growing demand if there's a properly resourced and well—supported workforce. government must now work with unions to achieve just that." let's get reaction now from roy lilley — a former nhs trust boss and an independent health policy analyst. thank you forjoining us. a big pay agreements, good news for the government, what is your reaction?

it is good news, and good news for patients too. we have to unions, primarily the rcn have no nurses, they only have nurses there, the organisation that represents no sense, they are out on a limb, they have run out of time to go on strike so they have an emergency council meeting this evening, i think, where they will be reviewing their options. they could say we don't think it is worth pursuing any more because there are no viable options, we will not get more money, but what i expect is they will say they will put it to the ballot of the members to see whether they want to go on strike again for another six months. i think the texture, the colour behind that is the nurses will certainly, i'm pretty sure, have had the money in theirjune wage packets, a lump sum, they will have

seen their salaries go up so i think a lot of them will say, we have probably got all we can get and that is it. it is only a guess but i think if it goes to a pallet the rcn would probably lose by a very narrow margin. ithink would probably lose by a very narrow margin. i think most nurses are taking the view that it is probably over. there is a militant lot, a significant number, but i think the majority of nurses will say, let's call it a day. majority of nurses will say, let's call it a day-— majority of nurses will say, let's call it a day. i'm sure they would not appreciate — call it a day. i'm sure they would not appreciate that _ call it a day. i'm sure they would not appreciate that language, i call it a day. i'm sure they would. not appreciate that language, just because this is a cost of living crisis and they are fighting for their wages but you think this has done enough so that even if they where we balloted the rcn would not vote to strike again? i where we balloted the rcn would not vote to strike again?— vote to strike again? i don't mean a discourtesy — vote to strike again? i don't mean a discourtesy when _ vote to strike again? i don't mean a discourtesy when i _ vote to strike again? i don't mean a discourtesy when i talk _ vote to strike again? i don't mean a discourtesy when i talk about - vote to strike again? i don't mean a discourtesy when i talk about the i discourtesy when i talk about the situation better nurses go on strike again, what would steve barclay do?

i think it is inconceivable he will put more money on the table because if he does he would have to go back to the other unions who settled and they would say, why don't we get the money too? as well as pay restitution i agree with the independent report of the institute of this global studies, —— at the institute for fiscal studies, they have lost the value on their wage packets. you would have to ask why, i think it started well before covid, there were 40,000 nurse vacancies for covid, and if you look at wages and say they had slipped over ten years, you had to ask what were the bma and the rcn doing for ten years? they have been asleep at the wheel. train drivers are earning £70,000 a year, fine, good luck to the train drivers, the nurses have been abandoned and this is the difficulty because when you get into

pay restoration it is such a difficult amount of money to catch up. there is no doubt thejunior doctors' calculations are correct, the nurses went on strike for i9% initially which was whittled down to 5%. i think it is difficult for them but what we have to do is try to concentrate on better retention, treating nurses better and how we recruit people into the service. the first time i can remember, applications to go into nursing training have fallen by 20%, very unusual because nursing is a very popular career for bright people with qualifications. this is a serious matter not only for the rcn particularly but also for unite, who represented paramedics and other important people in the nhs, but it is an important point for the government on why they go from here.

—— why they go from here. 0ut government on why they go from here. —— why they go from here. out of the deal refused by the rcn but accepted by the others as there will be some changes to agenda for change to improve it for nurses, some changes to the pay review bodies to make them able to reply quicker and some more work on safe staffing that the nhs was going to work with the unions to try to resolve. the difficulty is safe staffing means more nurses, more staff, to get more staff it has to be an attractive job but secondly it takes the best part of four years to train a nurse and ten years to train a doctor, this is a long way from solving the root cause. d0 a long way from solving the root cause. y ., a long way from solving the root cause. ,, ~ , f a long way from solving the root cause. ,, ~ , , ., cause. do you think this 5% deal will affect cause. do you think this 596 deal will affect what _ cause. do you think this 596 deal will affect what the _ cause. do you think this 596 deal will affect what the junior - cause. do you think this 596 deal| will affect what the junior doctors will affect what the junior doctors will be asking for now?— will be asking for now? almost certainly- _ will be asking for now? almost certainly. the _ will be asking for now? almost certainly. the good _ will be asking for now? almost certainly. the good news - will be asking for now? almost certainly. the good news is - will be asking for now? almost certainly. the good news is we| will be asking for now? almost - certainly. the good news is we knew last week there was a bit of a leak that thejunior last week there was a bit of a leak that the junior doctors were going

to at least meet steve barclay, both sides had refused, but at last they are getting round the table, this afternoon, i think. are getting round the table, this afternoon, ithink. i are getting round the table, this afternoon, i think. i think the high water mark for thejunior afternoon, i think. i think the high water mark for the junior doctors has been set, i think they realise they will knock at 35%. i'm not negotiating for them but if i was i would be looking for a three or five year deal to try to claw back some of the pay restoration, if we settle for 5% this year, maybe five or six next year and in the third year we are in the territory probably of a change of government following a general election, so who knows? but i think thejunior general election, so who knows? but i think the junior doctors will understand it is impossible for the government to agree to 35% in one lump, it is not affordable. roi; lump, it is not affordable. roy lille , lump, it is not affordable. roy lilley. thank _ lump, it is not affordable. roy lilley, thank you _ lump, it is not affordable. roy lilley, thank you for your reaction to the news about this nhs pay deal. the general secretary of the unite union has said they will escalate

strike action in the dispute over health workers' pay despite the nhs staff cancel voting to accept the government pay offer which will affect all members. let's speak now to colenzo jarrett—thorpe, the national officer for health at unite. he joins us from a picket line in kent. why won't you back estadio? good afternoon. — why won't you back estadio? good afternoon, how— why won't you back estadio? good afternoon, how are _ why won't you back estadio? good afternoon, how are you _ why won't you back estadio? (13mm afternoon, how are you doing? the very well, thank you. —— why won't you back this deal? truth? very well, thank you. -- why won't you back this deal?— very well, thank you. -- why won't you back this deal? why is unite not su ”ortin you back this deal? why is unite not supporting age? _ you back this deal? why is unite not suaporting age? our— you back this deal? why is unite not supporting age? our members - you back this deal? why is unite not supporting age? our members have| supporting age? our members have decided not to _ supporting age? our members have decided not to accept _ supporting age? our members have decided not to accept the _ supporting age? our members have decided not to accept the pay - supporting age? our members have decided not to accept the pay deal, | decided not to accept the pay deal, to reject the pay deal, unite will still be campaigning for a better pay rise for our paramedics on

strike, to make sure there was pay restitution and we save our nhs. this is notjust pay, it is the terms and conditions and 500 people have been dying every week because the ambulance service has been into the ambulance service has been into the ground, not on strike days, when workers are not on strike. something needs to be done and we think wow paramedics, health visitors, psychologists, biomedical scientists and other workers we represent all deserve better. flan and other workers we represent all deserve better.— and other workers we represent all deserve better. can you explain how ou think deserve better. can you explain how you think you _ deserve better. can you explain how you think you will— deserve better. can you explain how you think you will get _ deserve better. can you explain how you think you will get a _ deserve better. can you explain how you think you will get a higher - deserve better. can you explain how you think you will get a higher than l you think you will get a higher than 5% percentage if that has been agreed across the board, and it has to be implemented across the board? inflation is running at 13.4% at the moment. this represents a pay cut, not a pay rise, a big pay cut. 0ur

not a pay rise, a big pay cut. our members did not think this pay deal was good enough. when we put the offer to our members we did not say they should accept or reject, we said it was that pale, their vote, their choice. they chose to reject this pay offer so we will respect the will of our members, escalate industrial action. they have chosen to reject the inadequate and not good enough pay offer. our paramedics believe they deserve better pay and are willing to campaign and do whatever it takes to secure that. this is not as good a deal as they have in scotland where they got a 7.5% pay increase, for this financial year they got 6.9%, this financial year they got 6.9%, this is inadequate compared to

scotland, we will be campaigning because they deserve it and the government can afford it. how united are our government can afford it. how united are your members — government can afford it. how united are your members and _ government can afford it. how united are your members and opposing - government can afford it. how united are your members and opposing this| are your members and opposing this deal and where is the room for negotiation if there is not an increase in pay, would you consider other areas?— increase in pay, would you consider other areas? yes, and we are willing to talk, we — other areas? yes, and we are willing to talk, we have _ other areas? yes, and we are willing to talk, we have to _ other areas? yes, and we are willing to talk, we have to open _ other areas? yes, and we are willing to talk, we have to open the - to talk, we have to open the negotiations and see where that meets us because we have to save our nhs who have been run into the ground over the last 13 years due to lack of investment and lack of workforce. there has been a workforce. there has been a workforce plan for two years. this government is the byword for inaction, laziness and mismanaging the economy, something has to give. nhs workers will not be sacrificed, we need to make sure we sit down and have talks and save our nhs. flan i

have talks and save our nhs. can i ask a question _ have talks and save our nhs. can i ask a question that _ have talks and save our nhs. can i ask a question that might - have talks and save our nhs. can i ask a question that might be many viewers' minds, lots of nhs workers have accepted this deal, what makes your demands different? the our members your demands different? the $71." members have not accepted, they have rejected the deal, they said they should make the choice, our members think the deal is inadequate. we are obliged to go back to the government and say we want a better deal, that is what members have asked us. we are not saying we are superior or better, we are implementing the will of our members. we think all nhs staff deserve better, this deal will not help recruitment and retention, it will not save our nhs after 13 years of government mismanagement. we deserve better, we think we should get better and we are asking

the government to reopen talks so we can do that. we have no choice but to escalate if the government does not heed to our requests.— not heed to our requests. colenzo jarrett-thorpe. — not heed to our requests. colenzo jarrett-thorpe, thank _ not heed to our requests. colenzo jarrett-thorpe, thank you - not heed to our requests. colenzo jarrett-thorpe, thank you very - not heed to our requests. colenzo i jarrett-thorpe, thank you very much jarrett—thorpe, thank you very much forjoining us from a picket line in kent from the unite. joining me now is sara gorton, head of health at the unison union. why did your union accept the deal? 0kapi would need to ask our members. the reason we recommended it to members the reason we recommended it to membe ., , ., the reason we recommended it to membe . , ., ., the reason we recommended it to membe ., ., ., . members was that on balance it was less risky and _ members was that on balance it was less risky and a _ members was that on balance it was less risky and a better— members was that on balance it was less risky and a better way - members was that on balance it was less risky and a better way of- less risky and a better way of getting more money into pockets and pay packets than waiting for the pay review body process to run out, which in previous years had taken until the summer to even indicate what the annual pay rise was going

to be. so i'm really pleased that we have a clear majority position to accept, and as well as being head of health at unison i am chair of the nhs trade unions, we saw a very clear majority position not only to accept but to move forward and implement. i think we want to see that as quickly and smoothly as possible and to pick up some of the points made by colenzo which i agreed with, around the workforce strategy. we need the government to learn lessons and to work constructively with trade unions to make sure we try to tackle the nhs workforce crisis. {line make sure we try to tackle the nhs workforce crisis.— workforce crisis. one of the things that stands _ workforce crisis. one of the things that stands out _ workforce crisis. one of the things that stands out from _ workforce crisis. one of the things that stands out from what - workforce crisis. one of the things that stands out from what you - workforce crisis. one of the things that stands out from what you are | that stands out from what you are asking about is the speed at which you want to see pay in the pocket of your members, how quickly do you want to see it in their pockets and how likely is that to happen? irate

how likely is that to happen? we have how likely is that to happen? - have been through the biggest cost of living shock that many health workers will have experienced over this winter, it is very important we move quickly to get the deal the majority of unions want to accept in pay packets as quickly as possible. add today's meeting we asked for clarity on that and it was confirmed that the money is can be paid in the june pay packets, we will need to make sure that can be delivered on but we will be pushing to make sure that happens as soon as possible. the other really important point we want to return to its we may have resolved disputes in with this deal that health workers in northern ireland still only have just had the £1400 from the last pay year put into pay packets and they are still into pay packets and they are still in dispute, and as it stands at the

moment they have no prospect of ending that. we are now hoping that now we have an endorsed position in england that a similar offer can be put on the table for health workers in northern ireland to resolve the dispute that too. haifa in northern ireland to resolve the dispute that too.— in northern ireland to resolve the dispute that too. how do you think that government _ dispute that too. how do you think that government handled - dispute that too. how do you think that government handled this? - dispute that too. how do you think i that government handled this? about about a year ago unison under the nhs trade unions was about a year ago unison under the nhs trade union- nhs trade unions was trying to communicate _ nhs trade unions was trying to communicate with _ nhs trade unions was trying to communicate with the - nhs trade unions was trying to communicate with the then - nhs trade unions was trying to i communicate with the then prime minister and to urge and advise him that the pay review body process needed to be set aside and they need to negotiate directly with health unions because we could see this building, and they refused to listen. if you remember, went four months when we were actually in full dispute through the whole process of first morning of strike action to strike action having started in

seven months of disruption