voice-over: this is bbc news. we'll have the headlines and all the main news stories for you at the top of the hour, straight after this programme. welcome to hardtalk, from berlin. i'm stephen sackur. german chancellor olaf scholz said that russia's all—out invasion of ukraine would prompt a turning point in germany's strategic thinking. he promised a beefed—up military, a germany prepared to stand up for its values.

well, my guest today is the influential chair of the german parliament's defence committee, marie—agnes strack—zimmermann. so, is germany ready to leave its pacifism behind and project its military power? marie—agnes strack—zimmerman, welcome to hardtalk. thank you very much for the invitation. well, it's a pleasure to be here. let's start with that word that olaf schulz used right after putin's invasion of ukraine, "zeitenwende". he promised it would be that word, a turning point for germany and its strategic thinking. more than a year later, do we see real evidence of that turning point, that zeitenwende?

yes, yes, definitely we see it. it's a really important word, but it's, of course, not only a word, you need it in your mind. um, first of all, we have now the 100 billion euros for the bundeswehr. this is really important, more money for our army. we are looking for it for years. you said not so long ago that the german army has been bled dry. so now it's the right direction. but that's an extraordinary thing for you to say. how could germany allow its military machine to become useless? yeah, it's...it�*s a story of the ending of the cold war, 1990. and everybody thought all over the world that after, you know, after the cold war, everything will be fine. everything will be like living in a paradise.

and, um... not everybody, but nearly everybody, and now we realise there is no paradise. and so now we have to change a lot. and we have this discussion for years now. um, the first time, 2014, when putin attacks, attacked the ukraine for the first time, it was a discussion, but it was really a very soft one. and in this situation, i was very happy that our minister, kristian inknauf, minister of finance, that we have the possibility now to buy more things, to prepare the german bundeswehr to be a modern army. but, if i may interrupt, you say, yes, now scholz is getting real and that things are happening. but here's what eva hogl said just the other day, now she's the german parliamentary commissioner for the armed forces, she said not a single euro or cent has yet been spent from this special 100 billion euros. yeah, it's... for sure, it's not true, you know, 100 billion euros it's a really... it's really a lot of money.

and it's... you couldn't take the money and go in a shop to buy tanks and airplanes and all this stuff, which the army needs. so the fact is, that we have to order it the first time and that the industry had now, you know, a lot of...a lot to do, because the industry, it's a problem because we are not... the german bundeswehr was not the best customer for the industry and now they have to prepare to...to install new machines, to do a lot of things that. . .that germany could buy all this stuff. so it's not correct what mrs merkel said. it needs time, but now, today, i could tell you that we now, the direction is now 0k, we order it. we have to wait maybe for one, two years. right, so you're suggesting it's a long—term project. the problem is, if one looks at the defence budget this year...

yeah. ..it�*s really no bigger than it was last year. that's true. and we also look at the german economy, which is flat—lining, we look at the german people and their unhappiness with their cost—of—living increases and we think to ourselves, "maybe germany in the current situation "is not really serious about expanding defence spending "to that 2% level, which nato demands." yes, yes. yes, we will... i'm sure that, first of all, 100 billion euros, this is a fact. so now we will have the discussion that our 2%, the question of 2%, um, that in at least two years er, we have...our budget must grow. that's a fact. but it's not. no, but in two years it's a must. so, you just put it off? no, it's not put it off because now you have to see this 100 billion euros, 0k, and you have to add it to the budget now and in two years. but if the 100 billion are...we used it, we will use it.

then you have to, then we have to, um, yeah, then the budget has to... so, so let us consider the mind—set, notjust the purse strings, but also the attitude and the mind—set of 0laf scholz. what we have seen over the last 12 months is a man who, very reluctantly, has given more military assistance to ukraine. but it took him many months to commit... yes. ..to giving those leopard tanks. yes. so then it was... what, 18? it wasn't more. yes. so the question is, do you believe scholz�*s reluctance is damaging germany? mm, i would say that we have now the right minister of defence and i'm really optimistic that mr pistorius, the new minister of defence, he will push his own chancellor

because both are social democratics. and if you compare the situation now with one year ago, it's really different. it's true the chancellor was very, very... you know, it needs time, always discussing what could come, what is possible and this is not possible. and, you know, it was so boring after a while. you called it at one point a pr disaster. yeah, yes, it's a disaster because the ukraine is waiting, the world is waiting, the european union is waiting, nato is waiting, everybody is waiting... for ukraine, if i may say so, with a spring offensive in the offing, still wants more. and, for example... yes. ..it wants western warplanes. yes, but... would germany, in your view, as head of the defence committee, would germany consider sending euro fighters or tornado fighters? yes, i have to...

there are, now there are many stories you are talking about. the first thing is that we now delivered really a lot of stuff. also heavy weapons, around about three, four, three billion euros. so that's a fact. and all this stuff which we are, which germany delivered, it's always very german, very good. this is always the good end of the story. so we need always time. and by then we are really very german. so this is one thing. the other thing is that ukraine is waiting for more and more. and i can understand it because the war is still there every day. it's really terrible. and that's the reason why we now have the discussion. what could we do more? and now the third thing is a question of the, the question of fighters, of airplanes. what's your personal view? should europe, with germany maybe in the lead, start to consider sending jet fighters to ukraine? i think it's not a question of europe. i think every country has to decide it, if they want to do it,

or whether they want to do it or not. should germany do it? not with the eurofighter and not with the tornado? we have the...we have the... the moment that we are, um, educated, the ukraine soldiers in germany, many thousands of them, to learn to use the leopard tank, the panzer 0rbits, all these things. they have to learn it. and they are... it's very successful. but it's absolutely not possible coming to germany for six, seven weeks to learn how to use a eurofighter or a tornado. so i'm definitely... this is my opinion and i'm not...it�*s not by myself. it's that maybe the us will send, maybe, the f—16. mm, mm. the european countries will send the old mig, it's our... mig-29. mig-29, this is ok. and germany allowed immediately, because some of them are from the gdr, it's old stuff from the �*70s, �*80s, but the eurofighter and tornado, no. 0k. now, as you have said,

germany has in the last few months delivered billions of euros' worth of very modern, war—fighting equipment. there are many germans... even weapons which our army... ..er, doesn't have. many germans look at that and they worry. they listen to moscow and in moscow, the russian officials around putin talk of escalation and they directly talk to germans and say, "if you in germany continue with this policy, "we in moscow will inevitably regard you "as an enemy and that means as a potential target." germans are worried about that. mm, i don't think so.

you know, maybe, of course, in this situation you have people who are anxious about it and other, they... we have thousands who've joined demonstrations in german cities against the war. yes, but... we have extreme right and extreme left parties in germany... yes, but don't forget that we have 84 million people living here. i mean, thousands of people. it's. . . it's a lot. but if you compare it with how many people in germany are living, it's ok, and it's ok to demonstrate. and it's also ok that you are anxious about it. but i think it's a different question. you know, for russia, everybody who is now on the... on the side of the ukraine is a kind of target, if you... but i think we have to be this really relaxed. it's a story russia is telling always. and the important thing

is that we, you know, transported this story. how could i say? it's a narrative, it's a russian narrative. and, um... but with respect, it is a russian narrative about the dangers that this war could lead to for europe. but there's also a german narrative which has been around for decades, which is that we should have a warm, working relationship with moscow, an economic partnership with moscow, of course, based on energy, and also a narrative which says that we shouldn't trust the united states too much. we should be sceptical of the united states. these are strong opinions that many germans still hold today. there's one opinion poll recently that said 46% of germans are still suspicious of the united states. so my question is, is that german attitude going to become increasingly problematic if this war goes on?

you have always a problem if the war goes on for months or maybe for years. well, it may well do. maybe it could. but, you know, i'm not...i�*m not really anxious about the public opinion because it's a question, it's a kind of you, i mean, this attack to ukraine, this is, you know, aggression against the free democratic world, all over the world. it's not only a question of europe, of course, it's close to us, even especially to berlin, but it touched really the whole free world. you could see it that the countries in the indo—pacific are really afraid what happens. new zealand, australia, south korea, japan, everybody is looking what happens now in europe. and it's very important to... that putin realises and knows there is a free, democratic

world and there will really not fight only, it's not a question of fight because we don't, we don't fight. ukraine is fighting. as an influential voice here in germany in the debate about security policy, what's your view of the endgame? do you believe there will have to be a settlement which involves negotiating with putin, even though, of course, he is now an indicted, wanted, suspected war criminal who the icc in the hague would like to put on trial? will it involve talks with putin? just at this moment, i'm... i see no possibility talking to putin. i mean, he wants that this country sometimes is gone. and you understand what i mean? mm. and i... i understand what you mean, but i also am thinking about practical outcomes.

yes, but then you have to ask, then you have the people who are living in ukraine and not a german politician. a politician, because, you know, it's absolutely for my, it's my opinion, it's not possible that in berlin, or in paris, or in washington, we decide what happens in ukraine. of course, we could talk to our friends there. we could discuss what could be a possibility to stop war. but at the end, ukraine has to say yes or no. now, you are a member of the fdp. that's one smaller party in the governing coalition here in germany. the fdp is... small but very, very important. they laugh the fdp has long been seen as the party of... ..of business in germany. right now, there is a discussion about whether the g7 nations will go much further with sanctions on russia, maybe at the next g7 meeting... yeah. ..in japan next month. and maybe they will put essentially a total ban

on trade with russia with maybe just a few small exceptions. yes. would you support that? yes, absolutely, we have to do it, we have no choice, because the situation i mean, it's. . . it's very easy, it's...it�*s a very simple situation. vladimir putin hopes that we are not ready for doing this and we have to do it, even if you are... the question of economic question. i mean, it's a huge one. but we have to realise that this zeitenwende, it's a real zeitenwende, so we have to change our mind and we have to think about with companies, with ceos that we have, yes, now that we have to do something. that's interesting, because it's not in the end just about ukraine and about russia. what you seem to be saying is germany has to have a reset, a rethink, which actually puts fundamental values ahead

of pragmatic, business—first foreign policy, which has been the tradition in germany for many years. so let's talk about china too. 0laf scholz was in beijing late last year. he took a whole bunch of business leaders with him. he said that he did not want to see a decoupling of germany and china. we know that china is hugely important now to the german economy. yes, but even germany is very important for china. true. but we have to talk about, is it really clever that, for example, volkswagen, 40%... ..is... well, 40% of their sales, car sales are now in china.

bmw, 50%. but we have to talk about, is it really clever that, for example, volkswagen, 40%... ..is... well, 40% of their sales, car sales are now in china. yes, a0%. bmw, 50%. you know, i think this is really, really a strange situation. and so, no decoupling, but we have to discuss, is there any possibility for different markets? and we have to do it, because otherwise we are dependent like we are in a russian way. we were dependent of question of energy. again, it comes back to whether the german government is unified. the foreign minister, annalena baerbock, who of course is a green party member, she said, "we can no longer allow ourselves to become "existentially

dependent "on a country that doesn't share our values." maybe that was a message to your party, the fdp, as well as to mr scholz and the spd. oh, i mean, yes, it's right what she said. really? yes, absolutely. we really — i mean, you know, if you look back to the last 70 years. now we have to change our view of this world. and with china, it's really, if you see the problem with china and taiwan. i visited taiwan injanuary this year, and i talked to the president, and it was really interesting to talk to her, and to the foreign minister and all these people there. and everybody said... ..and this is really a great wish, please, germany, you have to reflect that

what happens, there is no normal relationship to china, they are waiting for a sign that is powerful in economic way. powerful germany changed business. but isn't this where you personally have a major ideological problem, because you're saying we need to shift on china. we need to understand the threat that china represents to our values, at the very same time emmanuel macron goes to beijing, and he makes a point of saying, "0h, we shouldn't be followers of the united states, "we shouldn't be dragged into the united states' conflict "with china over taiwan. "we have to exercise our strategic autonomy." now, you are a great europhile. you even want to see, for example, a european army. how can you be talking like that, when france and germany seem to have a huge division over china? yes, it's — everybody

was astonished about the words of macron. were you? yeah, it was — i mean, it's absolutely no. now i have to look for the right english words. i want to say it's a little bit crazy that he is in china, talking to china, coming from europe, and maybe the party was wonderful in china for him. i have no idea. maybe this reception was a really wonderful one, i'm no doubt about it. but 12 hours ago, the elysee said, "no, mr president, no." it was a little bit misunderstanding, because i send a message to the head of the french committee, defence committee, and it's like, come on, what happens now? and he said, "no, it's a misunderstanding," and so, so, so. so i think.... but the message really was clear. it was about strategic autonomy, europe distancing itself from the united states. but it's not our way. we are close to the

united states, but in the future we are friends. you know... but come on, you can't be serious if you on the one hand say that the french got it very wrong and we must stay close to the us, but at the same time you're saying, "0h, i want to see a european army, "i want much deeper integration of security and defence "policy across europe." yes, but... the two things can't work together. no, no. if france and germany can't even agree on this fundamental principle. no, no, of course. of course it's possible. we are close to the united states in our values, and i tell you the truth, and you know it, without the united states, without the military power, also, we have really problems in europe. so it's true, we have to do more. yes, i'm looking for a european army. we have now 28 national armies. it's ok, everybody could have a national army, but we have to grow up a european one. but it's not for now to —

it's not happens in one week. so it's 28 of army. but we could be still friends with the united states, and macron is in china, and he said, "oh, we need more distance to the united states." and he said it, you know, sitting in china, and, i mean, for the chinese president, it must be a wonderful situation. indeed. but for people like you, who want... it was a terrible situation when i heard it. exactly. yea h. and that, if i may say so, surely is the point, that for all your dreams of a much stronger, integrated europe with its own army and the common defence and security policy, it is impossible to see that being made reality. it's notjust about macron. it's about countries like hungary, who are outliers when it comes to ukraine policy. yes, but i said if we want to create a european army, it's not a must, you know, it's a possibility, and everybody could join this

army, and it's not a must. if it's — then it's true, you have 27 countries with different, a different view. but we have to start — if we are not, you know, if we don't start, then it's only a dream. but i'm a very realistic woman, and i'm not a dreamer. but i think you need the version, what could happen in 20 and 30 years for young people, for my children, for my grandchildren? and we have to find a european answer now. and you could find an answer without blaming the united states. it's not necessary. mary—agnes strack—zimmerman, it's been a great pleasure having you on hardtalk, thank you very much indeed. thank you very much.

hello there. on tuesday, it was a largely dry day across the uk. the best of the day's sunshine was across western areas, where we had some lovely blue skies through the afternoon in west wales, for example. elsewhere, though, there was quite a bit of cloud that bubbled up through the day. with high pressure in charge, actually where the winds came round, that high pressure, that was really important to how the day felt. in scarborough, with the onshore winds, temperatures just 11 celsius, quite cool. in contrast to that, the warmest place in the uk was here, managing 19 celsius, not far behind that for west wales, 18.6 celsius in a couple of spots. now at the moment, cloud is tending to melt away across england and wales, the thickest cloud over the next few hours across the north west of the uk, where you might find an odd spot of rain, but it's not really going to amount to much, quite mild for western areas to start the day. quite chilly in the east with temperatures starting off

wednesday morning down into low single figures. now, i think by and large for wednesday, there should be more in the way of sunshine to look forward to across england and wales. after a cloudy start in northern ireland, we should see some bright or sunny spells developing here. i wouldn't rule out a bit of rain, though, into the far north west of scotland, where it will continue to be quite cool. temperatures across england and wales for the most part, 15—18 celsius. so i think that will feel pleasant in the may sunshine. but then we start to see some changes coming up from the south west for thursday as a weather front approaches, and that is going to be spreading some rain. could be quite heavy as well for a time across southwest england before later in the day, the rain edges into parts of wales and the west midlands, probably. there will be some drier and brighter weather ahead of that, and temperatures could still reach around 18 celsius, but it will continue to feel quite cool across eastern scotland and northeast england with the winds coming in off the chilly north sea. now for friday, there's a general downward spiral into more unsettled weather conditions with heavy showers or even some longer spells of rain. the air, though, is relatively mild with the winds coming up

from a south westerly direction, 18 celsius, even if we don't get a great deal in the way of sunshine. but then on into the weekend, which, of course, is the coronation weekend, low pressure works up from the south west, and it does look like it will be turning increasingly unsettled. so i think rain will move into southern areas of england from the south west on saturday. so it could be quite damp for a time for the coronation. and then beyond that, we've got some heavy and thundery showers in the forecast for sunday.

live from london, this is bbc news. king charles's coronation rehearsal sees thousands of military personnel in central london amid security concerns. the warring parties in sudan have again agreed to a truce, this time for a week as the number of the displaced nears half a million. fears of ai disruption cause a sharp drop in shares of us and uk online education firms. and in sport, wrexham football fans celebrate a double promotion win with star owners ryan reynolds and rob mcelhenney.