voice-over: this is bbc news. we'll have the headlines and all the main news stories for you at the top of the hour, straight after this programme. welcome to hardtalk. i'm stephen sackur. it's easy to forget more than a year into his costly invasion of ukraine, but vladimir putin had some staunch allies amongst europe's political elite — berlusconi in italy, schroeder in germany come to mind. so too does my guest today, karin kneissl, the former austrian foreign minister who famously danced with putin

at her own wedding in 2018. now, she lives in exile, forced out of austria, she says, by death threats. what does her story say about vienna's close ties to moscow and the impact of austria's neutrality? karin kneissl, in northern lebanon, welcome to hardtalk. thank you very much for your invitation, mr sackur. well, it's a pleasure to have you on the show. i think we have to start with this question about your location. you were a senior member

of the austrian diplomatic political elite, until recently. now, you've left your home country and you're in exile in lebanon. just explain to me why. well, when our government literally imploded in 2019, all i wanted was to continue my academic work and publishing, but i had to find out that there was not a single contract. furthermore, a lot of harassment, also the death threats. but the bigger problem, honestly, was this de facto prohibition to work, so i decided to quit and first, i went to france and now, i'm in lebanon and i cherish the freedom of mind here in lebanon. at the root of it all — i think you would agree — are questions about your attitude towards, and your relationship with, the putin regime in moscow, so let's get to that immediately. when you came into office as foreign minister, how would you describe your

attitude toward vladimir putin? well, when i came into office in december 2017, my determination was to conduct a neutralforeign policy, and there were three big chapters i wanted to start. one was reopening our relations with turkiye, turkey, which had been suffering a lot. i wanted to bring more geopolitics into our foreign policy, like opening up a china desk, which we hadn't had at that time. and as a neutral country, starting a strategic dialogue both with the russian federation and the united states of america. the dialogue with russia, we called it the sochi dialogue and the dialogue with the united states was the salzburg dialogue. so, these were the three biggest chapters we started with.

yeah, i think what's really striking to me is that you were nominated to be foreign minister by the far—right fpo freedom party in austria, and they signed a cooperation agreement with putin's ruling party, united russia. and the party leader — the freedom party leader — said that he opposed economic sanctions against russia, which many of them had been brought in after the annexation of crimea in 2014. now, he wanted you to be foreign minister so, presumably, you were deeply sympathetic to those particular policy positions, were you? not necessarily, because many in the fpo actually disapproved of my rather independent work, such as looking for an approachment with ankara, and when it comes to russia, this was one topic among others. no, no, but let's not get stuck on turkey — i want to talk

to you about russia. did you oppose — at that time, after the invasion of parts of east ukraine and the annexation of crimea, did you oppose the intensifying eu sanctions against putin? what we did and what had been started prior to my nomination was an economic and civil society dialogue within the framework of the sanctions. so the sanctions ofjuly 2014 by the european union were in force but within the framework of those sanctions — and we worked only within that framework — we started to conduct a civil society dialogue and — just like germany did with the st petersburg dialogue or france with the trianon dialogue, so... crosstalk i guess what i'm getting too is mood music and tone, as well as specifics. for example, in 2018 — and this is soon after the british government, and other european governments, have no doubt that putin ordered the poisoning of a former kgb agent in the united kingdom by the name of sergei skripal, after that, you, austria's foreign minister, chose to invite presumably your good

friend vladimir putin to your own wedding. why did you do that? why did you think that was wise? well, i had informed a number of political dignitaries about the wedding — among them, members of the austrian government, and i had also handed an invitation to president putin when he was on a state visit to vienna, upon the invitation of the austrian president, in june 2018. to my big surprise, he accepted the invitation, so that's how it started. and how many other leaders did you invite to the wedding? well, i'm not going to enumerate now. the invitation was really a coincidence in the context of the visit during an exhibition we opened. but if you want to know, i also asked jeremy hunt

whether he would like to attend, but he was on his — it coincided with his summer vacation in sicily. yeah, i mean, jeremy hunt wasn't the prime minister. vladimir putin was the president of russia at a time that the eu countries were imposing new sanctions because of the fallout from the skripal poisoning. you, then, not only invited him but chose to dance a waltz with him, you gave him a deep curtsy and you showed him perhaps as much respect as any person could possibly show to a russian president. you were hammered in the austrian press for doing it. in retrospect, now, we're, what?, three, four — no, four or five years away from it, do you think that was terribly unwise of you? no, it was not unwise and i'm not going to start now this mea culpa story that i've been asked about beforehand in several other interviews so, no, i don't regret that i asked president putin for a waltz, and he made a bow and in

response to that, i did what a lady does when she has danced with a gentleman — i made my reverence. would you dance with him today? yes. a man who's indicted by the international criminal court, suspected of war crimes? yes. what has the one with the other thing to do? well, i must say i'm a little bit surprised that a suspected war criminals would be welcome at your wedding, were you to be having one, and you would be looking forward to dancing with him. well, about the war crimes, you see, i mean, iwould, for instance, like to see julian assange, who has compiled a number of documents about war criminals — and some of them may be also related to high—ranking british circles — but i don't... i'm not going now to enter into this whole war criminal indictment because we have

plenty of war criminals on our — within high—ranking political circles. so, just to get to the point, i suppose — the basic blunt point — today, with everything that has happened over the last 15 months in ukraine, you still regard vladimir putin as a friend whom you'd like to see at a social occasion? i am very careful with the notion of �*friend' because a friend is somebody whom you would call at four o'clock in the morning because your car is broken, for instance. i have met president putin at several occasions. last time i met him was in may 2019 on the occasion of the signing of the sochi dialogue, and i accompanied the austrian president — and just as a little reminder, the austrian president then invited president putin to join him for the salzburg festival in 2020, so everybody was very much excited in 2019, 2020, to have president putin

be at the salzburg festival, gazprom paying the whole thing. let us also recall the overall context of 2019 and 2020. see, there are many people inside austria who now look at the very close ties — which you perhaps symbolise more than anybody else — the really close ties between the political elite in vienna and putin's regime in moscow, and they have grave concerns that it led to major strategic mistakes inside the austrian government. i'm just going to quote to you one foreign policy spokeswoman for the green party, eva glawischnig, who said "putin's "fifth column in austria wanted to turn the foreign ministry" — that is your ministry, "into a kind of russian "matryoshka doll". were you, in essence, working for the russians? no, i was not working for the russians and mrs

glawischnig and some of austrian press have insinuated a number of things which would better be decided in court. actually, the person you just quoted has been accusing me of running espionage networks, so there are all kinds of accusations in the room which should be decided at court. and no, iam not working for a russian spy network. well, you chose to raise the issue of espionage. i want to ask you, just because i'm very interested in the background — the evolution of your thinking. there is a former kgb agent, sergei shirnov, who worked for the kgb until the early 1990s. he was later poisoned and he left russia and i believe he made a home in france. he says that he attended the elite paris school, the ena, at the same time as you. he said, quote, "i had a lot of contact with karin. "she was my classmate.

"she was pro—putin long before she became foreign minister, "and i got the impression — and i wrote this on "her intelligence card — that she could be a good "candidate to be recruited by our services". that's a former kgb agent. did the kgb ever formally approach you? no. nobody ever, from any russian embassy, has formally approached me — in contrast to some western countries, who were very eager to approach me. no, well, i don't mean formally — did they approach you in any way? no, i was never approached, neither formally nor informally, and this person, mr sergei shirnov, who you just quoted, let us also get here into chronological order, because there's a little bit of disorder. we attended the ecole nationale d'administration in paris in 1992 — that was the year when the soviet union was breaking apart — when the kgb, actually, was closing down. and mr shirnov has been running from one media tv talk

in france to the next, making these claims that he had recommended me for the kgb — which, in 1992, wasjust about to close down and mr putin, as far as i know, also left the kgb in 1992, so how could i have been a putin fan or whatever you just quoted him when, in 1992, there was no mr putin... crosstalk no — to be fair, he didn't mention putin, hejust said that you were — well, he did mention putin, but he'd also said that he's thought you, given your mindset, your attitude towards russia, would be somebody that the kgb might be interested in. crosstalk but i'm prepared — you say you've never been approached. ..there was no russia. but, mr sackur, in 1992, there was no russia, there was the soviet union, and mr shirnov has made these claims in order to get attention in order to be in tv shows. i never had any contact with him, apart from the fact that we attended the same

academy and he was... right, so... crosstalk ..active kgb agents so this is a matter... you've explained — yes, you've explained your connection with shirnov. thank you very much. you have other connections, of course, in russia — not least the fact that, for more than a year, you served on the board of the state—owned energy giant rosneft. why did it take you three months after putin's all—out assault on ukraine in february of 2022, why did it take you three more months to decide to resign from that board? well, bp is still a shareholder in rosneft. it's there with $24 billion, ithink. it has never notified its exit. so, i'm not a person who quits when there's a turbulence on the ship, and that's why i stayed, but bp is still there.

you didn't feel uncomfortable sitting on the board of rosneft as russian forces were invading ukraine? no, i did not feel uncomfortable. no, i did not feel uncomfortable and i think that bp and many others don't feel uncomfortable, just like qatar investment authority — and there are many other shareholders — but bp, british petroleum, beyond petroleum, whatever you might call it, is still a shareholder of rosneft. i guess the reason you just told me didn't feel uncomfortable, you were happy to stay on the board, we can only conclude the reason you quit the board in the end is because the european parliament passed a resolution demanding that the eu council impose sanctions on you, for your place in the russian economy? is that what forced you to resign? the legal reasoning was on the russian side, that around the 20th or 15th of may last year, all eu passport holders had to quit the companies. so that was a different

story and i quitted, i think it was 25th may, when all eu passport holders whether they were on the board or in the executive, could not any more remain. right, what i'm getting to is there is no point of principle for you here, so let's talk about some principles. is it for you a clear principle that russia in that invasion of ukraine, beginning february 2022, has committed an egregious violation of international law? any time a war breaks out is a failure of diplomacy... that's not my question. my question is very simple. yes, can you please repeat your question because... does russia's all—out, brutal invasion of ukraine from february 2022 represent an egregious violation of international law in your opinion?

any kind of outbreak of war is a violation of international law, yes, and i have said that before. i'm asking you whether the russian invasion is in your view entirely illegal? yes, the russian invasion like any outbreak of war, is a violation of international law. yes, that is what ijust replied. and would you like to see, going back to our earlier conversation, vladimir putin before the international criminal court in the hague. the un has presented through its independent international commission of enquiry, overwhelming evidence of a whole series of suspected russian war crimes, in particular he's charged with responsibility for the deportation of thousands of children to russia. but the evidence goes much further, do you want to see him at the hague? no, i don't want to see him in the hague. again, as ijust said before, i would like to see julian assange free, that would be, for instance,

something i would like to see. i just wonder why you are so unwilling to answer these direct questions. julian assange is an interesting subject but it is not for this. do you think there is a case to be made that vladimir putin is responsible for war crimes? but, first of all, let me respond as a legal scholar, i am not a lawyer but i have studied law and i have dedicated a lot of my work in the legal office of the minister of foreign affairs also to the creation of the international crime court. i was involved in that in the 1990s, and one of my first action as minister was to increase our tiny contribution to the icc. so i'm somebody who has always been in favour of pursuing international crimes. but let me just remind you, that a number of states have not signed and ratified the rome statute, the founding charterfor the icc,

so it has nojurisdiction for president putin, and this is my formalistic response as a legal scholar. it is interesting that austria is formally diplomatically neutral. you, of course, as foreign minister represented that neutrality, but i think it's fair to say, you are clearly not neutral any more. you make regular contributions to the state—run russia today media network which is, of course, controlled ultimately by the kremlin. you make many visits to moscow and you are constantly criticising european leaders for their sending of weapons to ukraine. so you've taken a side, haven't you? yes, i have taken a side, on many other issues, and i refrained from commenting on austrian foreign or domestic policy for a number of years. whenever i was asked,

i say i am not commenting on austria, but unfortunately, as a country whose neutrality is not only a matter of national legislation of 1955, but also guaranteed by a number of international acts, austria is not any more neutral, neither politically or militarily. what do you mean by that? austria certainly is not sending weapons to ukraine as are, of course, so many other european nations but austria, like hungary, refuses to do so. yes, hungary being a nato member also gives no authorisation to the transit of weapons across its territory, while in austria, we have around five transits per day. recently, a number of italian weapons reached ukraine and they were destined for poland. so the list is long, but i would have liked to see a different, real neutral stance when it comes also to this military aspect.

also let me recall the european union is now buying ammunition from a common front called the european peace facility. so any eu country is bound by that and you can also discuss that ever since austria joined the european union in 1985. there are many austrian strategists and political thinkers that think austria should be doing much more to help ukraine and should abandon this notion of formal neutrality. but let's not get stuck on that, let's talk about a different lesson that might be learned from what has happened over the last 14 months. i have just come from germany where the zeitendwende, the turning point that 0laf scholz recognised with the ukraine invasion means germany has weaned itself off, russian energy. austria in december of this winter used 70% russian gas, isn't it dangerous and irresponsible for austria

still to be so dependent on moscow's energy supply? as somebody who has been teaching oil and gas issues for about 20 years i always said, "diversity lies in liberty and liberty alone", which actually is a quotation from winston churchill who was also interested in oil and gas issues, 100 years ago. but we have seen austrian importing russian gas ever since 1968, by the way 0mv started... do you think that reliance should continue, do you? you see it is not up to me to give any advice to the utilities companies. the decision—making process is one of the utility companies, 0mv, and some stakeholders from the government. i have always said one should diversify, this has always been my attitude.

a final thought. you write plenty about diplomacy. when it comes to ukraine, you say all weapons supplies to ukraine should stop, there should be immediate dialogue, there should be immediate peace talks, that's the only path out of this crisis. you tell me, how exactly do you think this crisis can end, if there is no more arms supplied to ukraine, they can't force russian forces off their territory, vladimir putin has annexed huge chunks of ukraine into russia. how do you believe that that can be the basis for negotiation and for peace? well, i do hope the chinese mediation will make some starts, there are several points. another point is sanction lifting, it's also mentioning

ceasefires, so stopping of more arms delivery, and we had the recent phone conversation between president zelensky and xi jinping, so may be russian diplomacy can start with some sort of breakthrough, but it should happen, first of all, on a technical level. we won't see some noble word like "peace" being applied and happen in the immediate but i do hope that a ceasefire can implemented. it can only save lives and i think every soldier, every civilian who was killed from whichever side is one life too much that has been destroyed. this is my attitude, not only as a diplomat but as a human being. alright, well, karin kneissl, in lebanon, thank you very much forjoining me on hardtalk. you are most welcome.

hello there. it's quite tricky trying to plan your day ahead with the weather at the moment. take, for example, wednesday morning, glorious start in st albans in hertfordshire. but by the middle of the afternoon there were plenty of shower clouds, and many skies overhead look like this, quite threatening at times. in fact, if we take a look at the radar from wednesday, there were quite a widespread bunch of showers that moved in from the west, and some of these turned quite heavy with rumbles of thunder mixed in there as well. in fact, we're not even halfway through the month of may and some counties across england have already seen above average rainfall. the exception, highland scotland, where there's not been that much rain

so far this month. but low pressure still dominates the story as we go through thursday. that means further showers to come. high pressure is trying to build in from the west and it will do so for the first half of the weekend at least. so, for thursday we'll start off with some low cloud around, but largely fine and dry. but it won't be long before the sunshine comes through and we start to see some warmth building and showers turn quite widespread into the afternoon once again. couple that with some low grey cloud temperatures in the far north and east of scotland, disappointing 10—13 degrees. highest values, perhaps around 17 or 18 degrees. dodge the showers. keep the sun. it'll feel relatively pleasant. now, high pressure is building in from the west. but to complicate the story, this little weather front here is going to produce more cloud coming in off the north sea with a cool northeasterly breeze. and we'll see some showers running down through lincolnshire, east anglia, further south and west through the day. so west will be best for the sunshine and the warmth.

on friday, we could see temperatures peaking at around 18, possibly 19 degrees. but where that low gray cloud continues to roll in off the north sea, only highs of around 14 celsius. the high pressure then moves in for the start of the weekend. not a bad start, but already frontal systems pushing in from the northwest will start to bring a change from sunday onwards. so saturday, not a bad day and feeling pleasantly warm. but as we go through into next week, the showers are set to return and it will be just a little bit cooler than it should be for this time of year.

live from london, this is bbc news. donald trump dismisses sexual abuse verdict, mocks accuser in fiery tv appearance — and hints at potential pardons for capitol rioters. the us braces for a border security crisis as a trump era title 42 pandemic restriction expires. pakistan's army issues a stern warning as deadly clashes continue over the arrest of the former prime minister imran khan. and from an essex backing singer to an australian lawyer, we'll bring you some of the diverse acts from the last 16 countries competing in tonight's eurovision second semifinal.