voice—over: this is bbc news. we'll have the headlines and all the main news stories for you at the top of the hour, straight after this programme. welcome to hardtalk. i am stephen sackur and today i'm in berlin, outside the humboldt forum, one of germany's great cultural institutions right here in the city centre. it is home to thousands of works of non—european art. now, the

thing is many germans are now asking themselves, why is all this out here? should treasures grabbed by european colonisers be returned to their countries of origin? my guess is the director of the humboldt forum, hartmut dorgerloh. as germany right now the leader in the restituion movement? hartmut dorgerloh, welcome to hardtalk. ., hartmut dorgerloh, welcome to hardtalk-- it _ hartmut dorgerloh, welcome to hardtalk.- it is _ hartmut dorgerloh, welcome to hardtalk.- it is a - hartmut dorgerloh, welcome to hardtalk.- it is a great i hardtalk. hello. it is a great leasure hardtalk. hello. it is a great pleasure to _ hardtalk. hello. it is a great pleasure to be _ hardtalk. hello. it is a great pleasure to be here - hardtalk. hello. it is a great pleasure to be here in - hardtalk. hello. it is a great pleasure to be here in this i pleasure to be here in this amazing museum. ithink pleasure to be here in this amazing museum. i think it is fair to say this is the most ambitious cultural project launched since reunification of germany. what is the motivating

idea behind it?— idea behind it? yes, it is the most prominent _ idea behind it? yes, it is the most prominent cultural - idea behind it? yes, it is the i most prominent cultural project since reunification in germany and it is a debate also about the new heart of the new capital of unified germany, so it was in the beginning more a discussion about the architecture, about urban development, what to do with the site were originally for centuries the main residence of the monarchy... fix, centuries the main residence of the monarchy...— the monarchy... a prussian alace the monarchy... a prussian palace of — the monarchy... a prussian palace of isere. _ the monarchy... a prussian palace of isere. yes, i the monarchy... a prussian palace of isere. yes, a i palace of isere. yes, a prussian _ palace of isere. yes, a prussian palace, i palace of isere. yes, a prussian palace, and l palace of isere. yes, a i prussian palace, and then palace of isere. yes, a - prussian palace, and then after the second world war, it was heavily damaged in the war by the communist regime, it was replaced in the 1970s by the circle palace of the republic of the most iconic building of east germany, where i grew up. but it was full of asbestos. that was one of the reasons to close the building, and then a huge discussion started immediately after reunification, and the use of

the results of finally after ten years of discussion, or more than ten years, the federal parliament decided in 2002, more than 20 years ago, to reconstruct from the outside the former royal palace, and to create something new for the inside that's called the humboldt forum. ., , ., �* , humboldt forum. now you've 'ust described in fl humboldt forum. now you've 'ust described in brief i humboldt forum. now you've 'ust described in brief germany's i described in brief germany's complicated history since the end of world war ii, and one could argue that for many decades after world war ii, germany, both west and east, was marked, tainted by that history. of course, divided, as well. germany has now come together. do you think this is a time when germany is much more confident, much more outward looking, less internally focused? yes, i would say _ internally focused? yes, i would say so, _ internally focused? yes, i would say so, because, . internally focused? yes, i. would say so, because, first internally focused? yes, i- would say so, because, first of all, it was a rethinking of germany, what happened, and it was necessary after

reunification. so, and as a person who was born in berlin, i could experience in my home city, so to understand that it is much larger than only the east of the western part of the city. and then i think we've beenin city. and then i think we've been in a phase where europe became more and more important. i mean, the west as well as eastern europe, and perhaps it was also part of unification, bringing the special relationships to west or east germany, east to west and eastern europe together, and i think we are in a phase where we are much more contributing to global issues.— to global issues. yeah, and what is interesting - to global issues. yeah, and what is interesting about i to global issues. yeah, and. what is interesting about the humboldt forum is your main collection is focused on ethnological research, and study, and collection, and there are thousands and thousands of artefacts and objects here from all over the world, many of them collected by european cologne lien nests.

now, is it time for you in this institution to recognise in the 21st—century there is something deeply troubling about this collection and many like it in the great museums of the world? first of all i would like to say i'm speaking here is the general director of the humboldt forum. we are hosting, we are housing two museums here and our building, that is the ethnological museum and the museum of asian art, but legally they belong to another institution, the state museums institution, the state museums in berlin. �* institution, the state museums in berlin. ~ in berlin. about you, ifi may sa so, in berlin. about you, ifi may say so. are — in berlin. about you, ifi may say so, are hugely _ in berlin. about you, ifi may say so, are hugely influential custodian the collection. yes, our institution _ custodian the collection. yes, our institution is _ custodian the collection. yes, our institution is in _ custodian the collection. yes, our institution is in charge i custodian the collection. yes, our institution is in charge ofl our institution is in charge of bringing all these different aspects together and there are two more partners, two other partners, the humboldt university and so it is a little bit like a shared department with different partners but the main partner

thatis partners but the main partner that is the two museums with this incredible huge collection. and they have been exhibited for many decades in another more remote part of berlin and now they are in the centre, very, very close to museum island where the traditional museums have a very permanent place. in the humboldt forum is the reason for rethinking these kinds of collections and these kind of museums, rethinking in a way that we have to make it more obvious to the visitors how these collections came together, what their provenance are, what are the object biographies. can we talk about objects in these museums in general? and of course about colonialism is sometimes forgotten or less recognised important moment in the european but also in the german history. european but also in the german histo . ., european but also in the german histo . . ., .,

history. yeah, i want to quickly _ history. yeah, i want to quickly view _ history. yeah, i want to quickly view the - history. yeah, i want to quickly view the words | history. yeah, i want to l quickly view the words of history. yeah, i want to - quickly view the words of adam cooper, south african anthropologist, quite influential in the world's anthropologist, quite influential in the worlds of cultural museums, because these ethnological museum is like this one, museums of other people. he says their main purpose with all of its enlightenment european arrogance was to demonstrate what europeans and then americans saw as a long upward path to "civilisation". he said the more primitive or grotesque many of the objects in these displays was, the better. he found that very problematic. do you understand him?— you understand him? yes, of course. you understand him? yes, of course- it— you understand him? yes, of course. it is _ you understand him? yes, of course. it is problematic i you understand him? yes, of| course. it is problematic from our point of view today. looking back, the situation was completely different, and i think this is a duty we have to talk about the reasons why these collections came together. of course it

reflects... it together. of course it reflects. . ._ together. of course it reflects. . . together. of course it reflects... . , ., reflects... it reflects a prior dynamic — reflects. .. it reflects a prior dynamic l— reflects... it reflects a prior dynamic. i agree. _ reflects. .. it reflects a prior dynamic. i agree. of- reflects... it reflects a prior dynamic. i agree. of course reflects... it reflects a prior l dynamic. i agree. of course it is very eurocentric, _ dynamic. i agree. of course it is very eurocentric, a - dynamic. i agree. of course it is very eurocentric, a very i is very eurocentric, a very european concept, the museum in general as an institution, and i think we have to redefine what museums can do right now. we have to talk about the history of the institution, the circumstances of how these items were brought together, about colonialism but also about colonialism but also about other power relations within the world, and we have to reflect that the situation in mexico was quite different from what happens in tanzania or what happens in china. so if you are talking about objects from all over the world, we have to look more carefully what happens in these years. but, in general, it was the great time of universal museum and these ideas collapsed. there is a word, provenance,

which is now very important in museums, their collections and their explanations of their collections, and provenance essentially means telling the story of how the particular objects and pieces came to be on display very far from where they were made and had their cultural significance. they were made and had their culturalsignificance. do they were made and had their cultural significance. do you think you have done enough to explain the provenance of all the amazing objects that we see around us today?— around us today? what i can sa , around us today? what i can say. there — around us today? what i can say, there are _ around us today? what i can say, there are the _ around us today? what i can | say, there are the colleagues in the museums who are in charge, are looking much more carefully about, or into the biography, i preferthe carefully about, or into the biography, i prefer the term biography, i prefer the term biography, of these items, and in a way, i try to talk about cultural belongings, because the characteristics of these items, these artefacts, is so diverse, and what i have learned during my first years here in this new institution is

if you are discussing this with the communities of origin, and you can do provenance research in these types of museums and collections, only in a very close collaboration with these communities, then you learn that these are still living objects, these are still secret items, and that is why we try to talk about cultural belongings in many ways. the french academic _ belongings in many ways. the french academic who was hired as an advisor, i believe, to the museums here, benedict savoy, she quit back in 2017, her advisory role. she said she felt too little attention was being given to this whole provenance debate and explanation, and she feared, she said, that the humboldt forum was going to become,", a symbol of german oppression, hegemony and colonialism. she said the very idea of locating all of these ethnographic collections in a rebuilt

prussian palace was, her words, i. a prussian palace was, her words, "a complete mismatch". it prussian palace was, her words, "a complete mismatch".- prussian palace was, her words, "a complete mismatch". it was a dee cut "a complete mismatch". it was a deep cut in _ "a complete mismatch". it was a deep cut in the — "a complete mismatch". it was a deep cut in the discussion i "a complete mismatch". it was a deep cut in the discussion in i deep cut in the discussion in germany, the situation, and many things changed in between. so there is much more attention given by the museums which are in charge to provenance research, and there are much more political interests and support given to restitution in various ways. 50 support given to restitution in various ways.— various ways. so in a sense, she forced — various ways. so in a sense, she forced the _ various ways. so in a sense, she forced the museums i various ways. so in a sense, she forced the museums to | various ways. so in a sense, i she forced the museums to think much harder about these issues. i think it is part of a european discussion in general, so we cannot exhibit these objects without recognising that the world has changed and that the world has changed and that the world has changed and that the function of museums and its collections is changing tremendously.— tremendously. what about 'ustice? tremendously. what about justice? for _ tremendously. what about justice? for you _ tremendously. what about justice? for you as - tremendously. what about justice? for you as an i

justice? for you as an influential _ justice? for you as an influential voice i justice? for you as an influential voice vote | justice? for you as an i influential voice vote as curator, isn't the ultimate form ofjustice to return many of these items to the places where they were made? it depends not on us. it depends on what we do together with communities of origin, with other partners worldwide. but we talked _ other partners worldwide. but we talked about power dynamics earlier, dynamics of let's say the 19th century, when white europeans would colonise, they would conduct their military campaigns, they would loot and they would steal and they would bring stuff back. that was one power dynamic. who has the power dynamic. who has the power now? would you say that the countries from which these items were taken, they should now have the ultimate power to decide what happens to these objects? i decide what happens to these ob'ects? ~' ., , objects? i think the most important _ objects? i think the most important thing, - objects? i think the most important thing, don't i objects? i think the most l important thing, don't talk about us without us, as happened 100 years ago. that means even about the future of

this collections, these cultural belongings, you can decide only together, and what i've experienced is that it is a case—by—case situation. in some situations, due to restitution, circulation, permanent loan, whatever, could be another opportunity, but it is not our decision on the european side. we have to find common solutions together with partners worldwide. that's very interesting, because you and your colleagues, and i understand it is not your personal decision, but within the museum collection that you at humboldt forum work with, a key decision was made to return the so—called benin bronzes. it was a decision that actually shook the world of museums. hope shook the world of museums. how did ou shook the world of museums. how did you come _ shook the world of museums. how did you come to — shook the world of museums. how did you come to make that particular decision? the decision _ particular decision? the decision was _ particular decision? the decision was finally i particular decision? tue: decision was finally made particular decision? tta: decision was finally made by the foundation of prussian cultural heritage. the humboldt forum is a project was a reason

perhaps why it was made now. because, as a new institution, from the outside facing the past, but what we try to do in the inside is something that should offer a new door into a new future, and then you cannot exhibit these items, like the benin bronzes, and a very, let me say, traditional way, and that's why this exhibition was then curated after restitution was decided, in consultation and collaboration with partners from nigeria, much more contemporary art in it and so on and so on. i think that's the future. and... on and so on. i think that's the future. and. . .- the future. and... sorry to interrupt. _ the future. and... sorry to interrupt, but _ the future. and... sorry to interrupt, but to _ the future. and... sorry to interrupt, but to be i the future. and... sorry to interrupt, but to be clear, | the future. and... sorry to i interrupt, but to be clear, the bronzes are not back in nigeria, are they? bronzes are not back in niceria, are the ? ., nigeria, are they? some of them are, but it _ nigeria, are they? some of them are, but it was _ nigeria, are they? some of them are, but it was decided _ nigeria, are they? some of them are, but it was decided by - nigeria, are they? some of them are, but it was decided by the i are, but it was decided by the nigerian partners, some are here on long—term loan alternate loan, some in nigeria, some are in galleries,

some in storage for research. so it is much more complex than sometimes we can imagine, because it is a decision made ljy because it is a decision made by the nigerians, who are now the owners of the objects. m012? the owners of the ob'ects. now that's interesting. i the owners of the objects. now that's interesting. so _ the owners of the objects. now that's interesting. so what do you think your decisions here in germany, about your benin bronzes, what do they seems much more likely to agree that they should be returned to nigeria, what is the message? t nigeria, what is the message? i cannot talk about a british or french or whatever colleagues, but i know that there are many dialogues needed for common solutions and we are still in contact not only with partners in nigeria and looking forward what happens in britain and france and many others

collections. maybe they are having something unexperienced for us. do having something unexperienced for us. ~ for us. do you think the process _ for us. do you think the process can _ for us. do you think the process can go - for us. do you think the process can go too i for us. do you think the process can go too far. for us. do you think the i process can go too far and too fast? the chairman of the trustees of the british museum, the former uk chancellor of the exchequer george osborne, he said this, now in his new role at the british museum. he said "dismantling the museum's collections of the cause of restitution must not, he said, become the careless act of a single generation. he thinks we should be cautious here, that actually there is a lot still to be set for keeping these collections in their magnificent surroundings, where people can come see them, admittedly in the west, as they are today. i admittedly in the west, as they are toda . ., ._ admittedly in the west, as they are toda . ., ., are today. i would say two thins. are today. i would say two things. first, _ are today. i would say two things. first, we - are today. i would say two things. first, we are i are today. i would say two things. first, we are not. are today. i would say two l things. first, we are not the ones who are managing the timetable. so it is not on our

side alone. of course it is a question of more than one generation, to establish a new relationship in discussing these so—called cultures. and secondly i think it is very typicalfor secondly i think it is very typical for us secondly i think it is very typicalfor us in the secondly i think it is very typical for us in the west that we are talking about the material culture because we are so focused on having it, on ownership and what i have learned is that, for instance, a guy from the pacific told me it is so stupid, you're western thinking. in our culture people are important when they know something. not when they own something. not when they own something. and, i mean, talking about ownership is a very western concept.- about ownership is a very western concept. how do you chance western concept. how do you change that? — western concept. how do you change that? how— western concept. how do you change that? how do - western concept. how do you change that? how do you i western concept. how do you i change that? how do you change the museum? it still looks quite traditional to me, it pieces behind glass and cabinets which is what you

expect in a traditional museum. how do you create something thatis how do you create something that is more about engagement and people in conversation and ideas and less about objects? generally it is a discussion about the museum in the future but it is more a place, first a place for people and then for object. and in a case like this in this temporary exhibition, to create a shape, the curatorial responsibility was given to an artist of origin and she decided in collaboration with the museum how it should look and how her photographs and her contemporary works as a commentary was involved in the exhibition and in our case it is about dance, it is about music, it is about sound and a discourse, it is about politics and sport, whatever, so there are many more relationships and if you really want to create a

new together, in a word, thinking about challenges and i thinking about challenges and i think you can contribute to it but museums cannot be the only one as an institution contributing to the colonial past. i think there is a social public debate in general which is necessary for museums to play an important role that you cannot repair and you cannot heal, in my eyes you can only create together a new situation of collaboration and cooperation.- of collaboration and cooperation. of collaboration and coo eration. �* , ., of collaboration and cooeration. �* cooperation. and when you say the future _ cooperation. and when you say the future has _ cooperation. and when you say the future has to _ cooperation. and when you say the future has to be _ cooperation. and when you say the future has to be much i cooperation. and when you say| the future has to be much more about people and ideas than just about object do you think the internet, virtual reality, artificial intelligence, all of these things are actually going to change the way we think about the physical reality of museums? d0 about the physical reality of museums?— about the physical reality of museums? ., ., museums? do we have equal access to _

museums? do we have equal access to the _ museums? do we have equal access to the internet - access to the internet globally? it is an opportunity but it depends. it depends if partners, for instance, digital restitution and digital or 3d printed object are much more important for us because we want to touch it, we want to use it again, we want to learn how it was made. instead of just drawing it in a showcase. i think the digital opportunities are next to unlimited even in terms of museums but that is not the only solution and what i have also learned is in our wires they say ok, you have to put everything online. no, you cannot because, for instance, some object can only be seen by women because they are used for

secret initiative rights. and some sound recordings can be sacred so it cannot be listened to by everyone so we must respect this is a rich and still living culture, we are not talking about ed objects in showcases. aha, not talking about ed ob'ects in slimmest not talking about ed ob'ects in showcases. a final thought and it is a reflection _ showcases. a final thought and it is a reflection on _ showcases. a final thought and it is a reflection on what i showcases. a final thought and it is a reflection on what this i it is a reflection on what this cultural institution is. it is hugely ambitious and costs hundreds of millions of euros over the last 20 years to set this all up. governments in europe right now are strapped for cash and it is very unlikely that projects like this are going to be launched in the nearfuture. and this are going to be launched in the near future. and the this are going to be launched in the nearfuture. and the big money now, it seems, for the development of new cultural institutions is coming from, for example, the middle east where the gulf states, saudi arabia, they are pouring billions of dollars into new galleries, new museums like the new louvre, the new guggenheim

in upper derby, at vast expense. does this please you or do you worry that this is a dangerous way in which culture and soft political power are being used in the 21st century? we are in very good contact with colleagues in the emirates or in china and looking carefully around. it is interesting to see what happens interesting to see what happens in these countries and, but i believe it is not a convincing idea to export european or western museums worldwide. how a museum work in singapore or brazil depends on the situation in these countries. and, but, internationally or globally we have to rethink and to really —— redefine what a museum can be and i think we can learn a lot from different types of

museums, especially in south america there is a museum more influential than the big new building iconic design whatever somewhere. 50 building iconic design whatever somewhere-— somewhere. so you will not become somewhere. so you will not laecome a — somewhere. so you will not become a franchise, - somewhere. so you will not become a franchise, you i somewhere. so you will not| become a franchise, you will not see the humboldt shanghai or the humbolt riyadh? i not see the humboldt shanghai or the humbolt riyadh?- or the humbolt riyadh? i don't think ou or the humbolt riyadh? i don't think you can. _ or the humbolt riyadh? i don't think you can. i _ or the humbolt riyadh? i don't think you can. i think— or the humbolt riyadh? i don't think you can. i think what i or the humbolt riyadh? i don't think you can. i think what is l think you can. i think what is based here in berlin but what we want to do is do something together with these museums but not in a way of travelling exhibitions. that time is over. exhibitions travelling around the world, making money and so on. but what we really want to do is do something together, learn something together, create something new for both partners and not only working with museums, museum to museum for as one opportunity but for instance working with a community college somewhere in the us, it was a great

experience for me because couege experience for me because college students have a completely different approach of what happens here in the interactions and so we have a fabulous temporary exhibition made together.— made together. hartmut dorgerloh _ made together. hartmut dorgerloh it _ made together. hartmut dorgerloh it has - made together. hartmut dorgerloh it has been i made together. hartmut dorgerloh it has been al dorgerloh it has been a pleasure to be in your institution. thank you for having me here in berlin. thank ou so having me here in berlin. thank you so much — having me here in berlin. thank you so much for— having me here in berlin. thank you so much for coming. - over the past few days, we've seen lots of rainbows. there's been some very heavy rain and lots of thunder and lightning. and on thursday, we had some funnel clouds coming down from the base of the cloud. that rotating cylinder of air, if it hit the ground, it would have been a tornado. funnel clouds not unusual at this time of the year.

don't think we're going to see any, though, over the next few days because low pressure is going to take the heavy showers into central southern parts of europe. high pressure building across the uk. but we're seeing an east or northeasterly breeze coming in that's dragging in all the cloud from off the north sea. so a grey start for many central and eastern parts of the uk. that finger of rain moves down briefly to affect east anglia, the southeast, maybe the east midlands, before arriving in dorset. ahead of that, one or two showers for wales and the southwest. for many western parts of the uk, it's going to be dry with some lengthy spells of sunshine. and warm as well, temperatures 18, 19 degrees. where we keep the cloud, though, for eastern parts of england, much cooler, 13 or 1a nearer the mark and a cool breeze blowing in as well. that breeze will blow in more cloud overnight, particularly across central and eastern england on saturday morning. but it should burn back towards some of those north sea coasts, with sunshine developing more widely. and it's going to be warm in that sunshine and light winds as well.

temperatures are going to be higher on saturday, probably peaking at 20 or 21 celsius in quite a few places. second half of the weekend sees some changes because the high pressure releases its grip, and this weather front will move down from the northwest. that will bring some rain into scotland and northern ireland and eventually a bit of that rain will move over the irish sea into far western parts of england and wales. ahead of that we'll see some sunny spells, and barring one or two light showers, it may well be dry. and it's going to be quite warm across the eastern side of england and through the midlands, temperatures again, 20 or 21 celsius. but over towards the northwest, things are turning much cooler nearer 15 or 16 degrees in that rain. that rain then pushes its way down across the country overnight. and then following on from that early next week, we have more of a northwesterly breeze and that's going to bring in some cooler air as well. so the peak of the temperatures looks like being over the weekend. after that, things are cooling down. there'll be some sunshine around into next week. we can see just how low those temperatures are going to be. there will be some showers, but not the heavy ones that we've seen of late.

live from london, this is bbc news. the us—mexico border braces for potential surges in migrants. the controversial title 42 immigration policy hasjust expired. this is the scene live in el paso in texas, which has been preparing for the arrival of the migrants. former pakistani prime minister imran khan is set to defend himself in court against corruption charges, this time as a free man. us and china hold their highest—level talks since the spy balloon incident aimed at improving relations.