bbc radio 5 live. the voice of the uk. nicky campbell. good morning. welcome to the nation's phone in. there is a lot of eurovision. but we are on education, education, education. are sats up to scratch? thousands of children in year six are taking their sats exams this week at primary schools in england. but hundreds of parents and teachers have complained about this year's tests, saying they are too hard and apparently leaving some children distraught and in tears. the department for education says they play a vital role in understanding people's progress and identifying those who may have

fallen behind. many of you will to say kids need to feel the pressure of gcses coming down the line. what do you think — are sats much too much, much too young? do they put children under unnecessary pressure? or are they an important tool for measuring abilities? how many millilitres of squash are in each drink? what is the correct answer? are sats up to scratch? what is the correct answer? get in touch, let's talk. call free. call me on 08085 909693. text 85058. follow 5 live on facebook and twitter.. it is good to see. here the news. train passengers are facing cancellations on many lines at the start of a weekend likely to be severely disrupted by strike action. train drivers in the aslef union have walked out today, in their continuing dispute about pay and conditions. more disruption is expected tomorrow, when rmt union members walk out.

the uk economy grew a small amount over the first three months of the year. official figures show that gross domestic product increased by 0.1% betweenjanuary and march. reports of a ukrainian breakthrough on the front line of the war in bakhmut, have been denied by russia, even though the claim was made by pro—russia sources. russian military bloggers reported ukrainian advances or troop movements in several areas. a new law has been passed in new york which outlaws discrimination based on a person's weight or height. the leigslation�*s supporters included people who'd struggled with seating at restaurants and theatres.

yes, so, are sats up to scratch? that is the question we are asking this morning. a vital role in understanding people's progress, pivotal in raising standards in our primary schools, abolishing it would be a terrible backward step. 0r too much, too young, a waste of time? teaching to the test, that is what is all about. restricting the curriculum. serving no purpose. grainne hallahan, senior analyst, joined me. good morning. whatan interesting conversation this is. why do we need them? 50. interesting conversation this is. why do we need them?- interesting conversation this is. why do we need them? so, the sats are a measure _ why do we need them? so, the sats are a measure of— why do we need them? so, the sats are a measure of the _ why do we need them? so, the sats are a measure of the end _ why do we need them? so, the sats are a measure of the end of - why do we need them? so, the sats are a measure of the end of primaryl are a measure of the end of primary school and they are important for us to get a picture of what the progress is like of the children across the country. so, you look at what they came into primary school with. was it at key stage one, which is year two? they are getting rid of that. they are going to be assessed when they come into primary school. then we look at what they leave primary school with. that

information is used all the way later when those students do their gcses. they are able to say, these gcses. they are able to say, these gcse performances accurate, are the paper is too easy? they can use the key stage two data to inform where to put their grade boundaries. they are used for lots of data exercises. but for the year six pupils, who are taking the tests, they don't really serve a lot of purpose. they don't get a certificate to say they passed their sats. it is purely a data exercise. their sats. it is purely a data exercise-— their sats. it is purely a data exercise. �* , . , ., exercise. and as such, it is an unnecessary _ exercise. and as such, it is an unnecessary pressure - exercise. and as such, it is an unnecessary pressure on - exercise. and as such, it is an unnecessary pressure on the l unnecessary pressure on the children? unnecessary pressure on the cwren?— unnecessary pressure on the children?— children? well, it's really interesting. _ children? well, it's really interesting. i— children? well, it's really interesting. i think - children? well, it's really interesting. i think when | children? well, it's really i interesting. i think when we children? well, it's really - interesting. i think when we talk about the pressure, let's break that down. you have the pressure upon the teachers and the schools to get certain results because those resulting from the league tables. you might say the pressure being put on the teachers filters down to the children and they feel this will need to perform, they get anxiety about doing the tests, and leaders

are telling us that although they try their very, very best do not let the children feel the pressure being felt by the teachers, that is an impossible exercise because there is so much focus put upon the tests, things happen, like you mentioned before, like the curriculum narrowing, drama, arts, sport get dropped, they miss out on other stuff in the classroom, they are brought in after school on the holidays. poor results can trigger moving down the league tables, 0fsted inspections, teachers have their pay is sometimes linked to the performance of the class. these sorts of things create real pressure. does the test have to be like that? well, we have got other examples of ways we can test children. if you look to scotland or wales, they have moved to a different sort of testing. so, with the sats they sit and do a paper exam. they start and then finish. everybody does the same questions, same number of questions, same

amount of time. what we could do is adaptive testing. say you take for example a reading paper. you read a test and we are asking five questions. if you get all five right, you get five harder questions. if you get some of them wrong you will be retested on the question is testing that skill that you got wrong before, just to check, did you really understand it, can you really do it? then the test adapt according to the answers you give. that means you get a shorter test, a less stressful task. you don't have children being faced with question upon question i can't answer. and in a way doing that method some people argue, experts argue, it would be a better and less stressful way to test our children. by stressful way to test our children. by the way, the 850 millilitre bottle of squash makes 17 drinks. how many millilitres of squash are in each drink? the answer is 50 millilitres. i had to scratch my head a little bit. it is not my

strongest point. i get why people absolutely love it. arithmetic. but there you are. you will have worked that one out. i said that question at the top. melanie is in staffordshire. simon is in chelmsford. heatherand staffordshire. simon is in chelmsford. heather and ipswich and holly in gainsborough. melanie, are they up to scratch? good morning. good morning. i'm so pleased you answered — good morning. i'm so pleased you answered the _ good morning. i'm so pleased you answered the squash _ good morning. i'm so pleased you answered the squash question. i. good morning. i'm so pleased you i answered the squash question. i was worried _ answered the squash question. i was worried you — answered the squash question. i was worried you were _ answered the squash question. i was worried you were going _ answered the squash question. i was worried you were going to _ answered the squash question. i was worried you were going to come - answered the squash question. i was worried you were going to come at l answered the squash question. i was. worried you were going to come at me with that! _ worried you were going to come at me with that! l_ worried you were going to come at me with that! ., worried you were going to come at me with that! . ., ., ., ., with that! i have another one for ou in a with that! i have another one for you in a minute, _ with that! i have another one for you in a minute, don't— with that! i have another one for you in a minute, don't worry! . with that! i have another one for you in a minute, don't worry! it| with that! i have another one for. you in a minute, don't worry! it has been a heck — you in a minute, don't worry! it has been a heck of _ you in a minute, don't worry! it has been a heck of a _ you in a minute, don't worry! it has been a heck of a week— you in a minute, don't worry! it has been a heck of a week for - you in a minute, don't worry! it has been a heck of a week for a - you in a minute, don't worry! it has been a heck of a week for a lot - you in a minute, don't worry! it has been a heck of a week for a lot of l been a heck of a week for a lot of people. _ been a heck of a week for a lot of peorrte. hasn't— been a heck of a week for a lot of people, hasn't it? _ been a heck of a week for a lot of people, hasn't it? really- people, hasn't it? really interesting _ people, hasn't it? really interesting to— people, hasn't it? really interesting to hear- people, hasn't it? really interesting to hear whatl people, hasn't it? really- interesting to hear what was being said about — interesting to hear what was being said about the _ interesting to hear what was being said about the adaptive _ interesting to hear what was being said about the adaptive testing. i said about the adaptive testing. that sounds— said about the adaptive testing. that sounds like _ said about the adaptive testing. that sounds like a _ said about the adaptive testing. that sounds like a nicer- said about the adaptive testing. that sounds like a nicer way - said about the adaptive testing. that sounds like a nicer way toi said about the adaptive testing. l that sounds like a nicer way to do it. that sounds like a nicer way to do it doesn't — that sounds like a nicer way to do it doesn't it? _ that sounds like a nicer way to do it. doesn't it? |_ that sounds like a nicer way to do it. doesn't it? ithink— that sounds like a nicer way to do it. doesn't it? i think we - that sounds like a nicer way to do it. doesn't it? i think we have - that sounds like a nicer way to do it. doesn't it? i think we have gotj it. doesn't it? i think we have got really— it. doesn't it? i think we have got really skiiied _ it. doesn't it? i think we have got really skilled professional- really skilled professional dedicated _ really skilled professional dedicated teachers - really skilled professional dedicated teachers who . really skilled professional- dedicated teachers who know the kids, _ dedicated teachers who know the kids. know — dedicated teachers who know the kids, know where _ dedicated teachers who know the kids, know where they— dedicated teachers who know the kids, know where they are - dedicated teachers who know the kids, know where they are at, . dedicated teachers who know the | kids, know where they are at, and understand what— kids, know where they are at, and understand what they _ kids, know where they are at, and understand what they need, - kids, know where they are at, and understand what they need, and l understand what they need, and perhaps— understand what they need, and perhaps we _ understand what they need, and perhaps we should _ understand what they need, and perhaps we should put - understand what they need, and perhaps we should put a - understand what they need, and perhaps we should put a bit - understand what they need, and i perhaps we should put a bit more trust _ perhaps we should put a bit more trust and — perhaps we should put a bit more trust and faith _ perhaps we should put a bit more

trust and faith and _ perhaps we should put a bit more trust and faith and autonomy - perhaps we should put a bit more trust and faith and autonomy in l trust and faith and autonomy in their— trust and faith and autonomy in their taps— trust and faith and autonomy in their taps as _ trust and faith and autonomy in their laps as well. _ trust and faith and autonomy in their laps as well. it _ trust and faith and autonomy in their laps as well. it has - trust and faith and autonomy in their laps as well. it has been l trust and faith and autonomy in their laps as well. it has been a hard _ their laps as well. it has been a hard week— their laps as well. it has been a hard week for— their laps as well. it has been a hard week for my _ their laps as well. it has been a hard week for my son _ their laps as well. it has been a hard week for my son and - their laps as well. it has been a hard week for my son and his . their laps as well. it has been a i hard week for my son and his year group _ hard week for my son and his year group across — hard week for my son and his year group across the _ hard week for my son and his year group across the country. - hard week for my son and his year group across the country. is - hard week for my son and his year group across the country. is there | group across the country. is there some _ group across the country. is there some other— group across the country. is there some other way— group across the country. is there some other way of _ group across the country. is there some other way of doing - group across the country. is there some other way of doing it? - group across the country. is there some other way of doing it? doesj group across the country. is there i some other way of doing it? does it need _ some other way of doing it? does it need to— some other way of doing it? does it need to be — some other way of doing it? does it need to be this _ some other way of doing it? does it need to be this hard? _ some other way of doing it? does it need to be this hard? 0r— some other way of doing it? does it need to be this hard? or do- some other way of doing it? does it need to be this hard? or do the - some other way of doing it? does it. need to be this hard? or do the exam realty— need to be this hard? or do the exam realty benefit? — need to be this hard? or do the exam really benefit? it _ need to be this hard? or do the exam really benefit? it is _ need to be this hard? or do the exam really benefit? it is great _ need to be this hard? or do the exam really benefit? it is great to _ need to be this hard? or do the exam really benefit? it is great to hear- really benefit? it is great to hear there _ really benefit? it is great to hear there are — really benefit? it is great to hear there are alternative _ really benefit? it is great to hear there are alternative methods i really benefit? it is great to hear. there are alternative methods that are being — there are alternative methods that are being used _ there are alternative methods that are being used. [it— there are alternative methods that are being used-— there are alternative methods that are being used. it has been quite a week for people. _ are being used. it has been quite a week for people. i've _ are being used. it has been quite a week for people. i've been - are being used. it has been quite a week for people. i've been readingj week for people. i've been reading about it. grainne with some interesting thoughts. heather, what do you think? four children, 0k. interesting thoughts. heather, what do you think? four children, ok. you have been through a lot, they have been through a lot.— have been through a lot, they have been through a lot. what's going on? yes, i am been through a lot. what's going on? yes. i am on — been through a lot. what's going on? yes. i am on my _ been through a lot. what's going on? yes, i am on my third _ been through a lot. what's going on? yes, i am on my third child _ been through a lot. what's going on? yes, i am on my third child to - been through a lot. what's going on? yes, i am on my third child to do - yes, i am on my third child to do the key— yes, i am on my third child to do the key stage _ yes, i am on my third child to do the key stage two _ yes, i am on my third child to do the key stage two sats. - yes, i am on my third child to do the key stage two sats. we're . yes, i am on my third child to do - the key stage two sats. we're really fortunate _ the key stage two sats. we're really fortunate that — the key stage two sats. we're really fortunate that our _ the key stage two sats. we're really fortunate that our school _ the key stage two sats. we're really fortunate that our school puts - the key stage two sats. we're really fortunate that our school puts very l fortunate that our school puts very little pressure _ fortunate that our school puts very little pressure our— fortunate that our school puts very little pressure our children. - fortunate that our school puts very little pressure our children. my. fortunate that our school puts very| little pressure our children. my son knows _ little pressure our children. my son knows they— little pressure our children. my son knows they are _ little pressure our children. my son knows they are happening, - little pressure our children. my son knows they are happening, but - little pressure our children. my son knows they are happening, but it . little pressure our children. my son. knows they are happening, but it has been a _ knows they are happening, but it has been a positive — knows they are happening, but it has been a positive experience. - knows they are happening, but it has been a positive experience. he - knows they are happening, but it has been a positive experience. he has l been a positive experience. he has been _ been a positive experience. he has been absolutely— been a positive experience. he has been absolutely fine _ been a positive experience. he has been absolutely fine about - been a positive experience. he has been absolutely fine about it. - been a positive experience. he has been absolutely fine about it. and i been a positive experience. he has| been absolutely fine about it. and i asked _ been absolutely fine about it. and i asked him — been absolutely fine about it. and i asked him this _ been absolutely fine about it. and i asked him this morning, _ been absolutely fine about it. and i asked him this morning, are - been absolutely fine about it. and i asked him this morning, are you i asked him this morning, are you happy— asked him this morning, are you happy about— asked him this morning, are you happy about it. _ asked him this morning, are you happyabout it. it— asked him this morning, are you happy about it, it is— asked him this morning, are you happy about it, it is nearly- asked him this morning, are you| happy about it, it is nearly over?

he said. — happy about it, it is nearly over? he said. that's— happy about it, it is nearly over? he said, that's fine. _ happy about it, it is nearly over? he said, that's fine. that- happy about it, it is nearly over? he said, that's fine. that was - happy about it, it is nearly over? | he said, that's fine. that was not the expense _ he said, that's fine. that was not the expense with _ he said, that's fine. that was not the expense with my— he said, that's fine. that was not the expense with my first - he said, that's fine. that was not the expense with my first child. i he said, that's fine. that was not| the expense with my first child. it is totally — the expense with my first child. it is totally different. _ the expense with my first child. it is totally different. she _ the expense with my first child. it is totally different. she was - is totally different. she was extremely— is totally different. she was extremely anxious. - is totally different. she was extremely anxious. the - is totally different. she was - extremely anxious. the approach of the school— extremely anxious. the approach of the school was _ extremely anxious. the approach of the school was a _ extremely anxious. the approach of the school was a lot _ extremely anxious. the approach of the school was a lot different. - the school was a lot different. things — the school was a lot different. things have _ the school was a lot different. things have changed. - the school was a lot different. things have changed. a- the school was a lot different. things have changed. a lot i the school was a lot different. things have changed. a lot of| the school was a lot different. i things have changed. a lot of my friends _ things have changed. a lot of my friends with — things have changed. a lot of my friends with children _ things have changed. a lot of my friends with children doing - things have changed. a lot of my friends with children doing key. friends with children doing key stage — friends with children doing key stage it — friends with children doing key stage it right _ friends with children doing key stage ii right now, _ friends with children doing key stage ii right now, they- friends with children doing key stage ii right now, they have l friends with children doing key- stage ii right now, they have been really— stage ii right now, they have been really stressed. _ stage ii right now, they have been really stressed. the _ stage ii right now, they have been really stressed. the children - stage ii right now, they have been really stressed. the children have| really stressed. the children have been _ really stressed. the children have been brought— really stressed. the children have been brought in— really stressed. the children have been brought in to _ really stressed. the children have been brought in to do _ really stressed. the children have been brought in to do extra. - really stressed. the children have been brought in to do extra. theyj been brought in to do extra. they have _ been brought into do extra. they have been— been brought in to do extra. they have been missing _ been brought in to do extra. they have been missing out— been brought in to do extra. they have been missing out on- been brought in to do extra. they have been missing out on play. been brought in to do extra. theyl have been missing out on play and all sorts— have been missing out on play and all sorts of— have been missing out on play and all sorts of stuff— have been missing out on play and all sorts of stuff to _ have been missing out on play and all sorts of stuff to try— have been missing out on play and all sorts of stuff to try to - have been missing out on play and all sorts of stuff to try to get - all sorts of stuff to try to get them — all sorts of stuff to try to get them almost _ all sorts of stuff to try to get them almost hot _ all sorts of stuff to try to get them almost hot housed. . all sorts of stuff to try to get i them almost hot housed. that does concern _ them almost hot housed. that does concern me — them almost hot housed. that does concern me it _ them almost hot housed. that does concern me. it does _ them almost hot housed. that does concern me. it does inflate - them almost hot housed. that does concern me. it does inflate the - concern me. it does inflate the results. — concern me. it does inflate the results, because _ concern me. it does inflate the results, because they - concern me. it does inflate the results, because they have - concern me. it does inflate the. results, because they have been trained — results, because they have been trained to— results, because they have been trained to the _ results, because they have been trained to the sats, _ results, because they have been trained to the sats, which - results, because they have beenl trained to the sats, which means when _ trained to the sats, which means when they— trained to the sats, which means when they going _ trained to the sats, which means when they going to _ trained to the sats, which means when they going to high - trained to the sats, which means when they going to high school, i when they going to high school, there _ when they going to high school, there are — when they going to high school, there are other— when they going to high school, there are other children - when they going to high school, there are other children who - when they going to high school, i there are other children who may when they going to high school, - there are other children who may not have had _ there are other children who may not have had that — there are other children who may not have had that pressure _ there are other children who may not have had that pressure put _ there are other children who may not have had that pressure put in. - there are other children who may not have had that pressure put in. we . have had that pressure put in. we are lucky— have had that pressure put in. we are lucky because _ have had that pressure put in. we are lucky because the _ have had that pressure put in. we are lucky because the high - have had that pressure put in. we| are lucky because the high schools in our— are lucky because the high schools in our area — are lucky because the high schools in our area reassessed _ are lucky because the high schools in our area reassessed and - are lucky because the high schools in our area reassessed and when l are lucky because the high schools i in our area reassessed and when they io in our area reassessed and when they go in _ in our area reassessed and when they go in and _ in our area reassessed and when they go in and decide — in our area reassessed and when they go in and decide how— in our area reassessed and when they go in and decide how to _ in our area reassessed and when they go in and decide how to stream - in our area reassessed and when they| go in and decide how to stream them. they don't— go in and decide how to stream them. they don't use — go in and decide how to stream them. they don't use the _ go in and decide how to stream them. they don't use the sats. _ go in and decide how to stream them. they don't use the sats.— they don't use the sats. melanie, do ou want they don't use the sats. melanie, do you want to — they don't use the sats. melanie, do you want to come _ they don't use the sats. melanie, do you want to come back— they don't use the sats. melanie, do you want to come back in? _ they don't use the sats. melanie, do you want to come back in? yeah, - they don't use the sats. melanie, do| you want to come back in? yeah, that sounds like — you want to come back in? yeah, that sounds like a — you want to come back in? yeah, that sounds like a terrible _ you want to come back in? yeah, that sounds like a terrible experience, - sounds like a terrible experience, doesn't _ sounds like a terrible experience, doesn't it? — sounds like a terrible experience, doesn't it? it has been a particularly difficult week. lots of stress _ particularly difficult week. lots of stress has — particularly difficult week. lots of stress has been on the reading comprehension test, which was two

days ago _ comprehension test, which was two days ago. yesterday they seem to be a hatiohai_ days ago. yesterday they seem to be a national debate on social media about— a national debate on social media about frankly what sounds like a ridiculous — about frankly what sounds like a ridiculous test that was impossible to answer~ — ridiculous test that was impossible to answer. even some of the teachers were on— to answer. even some of the teachers were on twitter saying they could not answer it. will were on twitter saying they could not answer it.— not answer it. will that not be factored in? _ not answer it. will that not be factored in? will— not answer it. will that not be factored in? will the - not answer it. will that not be factored in? will the difficulty| not answer it. will that not be i factored in? will the difficulty of it not be factored in as well? i it not be factored in as well? i hope so. but my son is an advanced reader~ _ hope so. but my son is an advanced reader~ he — hope so. but my son is an advanced reader. he has a reading age several years— reader. he has a reading age several years above — reader. he has a reading age several years above his age and he was stopped — years above his age and he was stopped. he came away feeling very deflated _ stopped. he came away feeling very deflated and frustrated by that test _ deflated and frustrated by that test. you can imagine that people of an average _ test. you can imagine that people of an average reading age, how they must _ an average reading age, how they must have — an average reading age, how they must have been feeling. there was quite _ must have been feeling. there was quite a _ must have been feeling. there was quite a bit — must have been feeling. there was quite a bit of emotional trauma sustained — quite a bit of emotional trauma sustained by quite a lot of children a few— sustained by quite a lot of children a few days — sustained by quite a lot of children a few days ago. maybe they will factor _ a few days ago. maybe they will factor it — a few days ago. maybe they will factor it in. but i know lots of families— factor it in. but i know lots of families are trying to pick up the pieces— families are trying to pick up the pieces and — families are trying to pick up the pieces and nurture their kids through— pieces and nurture their kids through the rest of the week after that really awful reading comprehension test. that really awful reading comrehension test. ~ ., ., comprehension test. what do you think of that _ comprehension test. what do you think of that phrase _ comprehension test. what do you think of that phrase that - comprehension test. what do you think of that phrase that melanie | think of that phrase that melanie came up with there, heather, emotional trauma? came up with there, heather, emotionaltrauma? is came up with there, heather,

emotional trauma? is that what it is, heather? i emotional trauma? is that what it is. heather?— is, heather? ithink it is very valid. if is, heather? ithink it is very valid- if you _ is, heather? ithink it is very valid. if you look _ is, heather? ithink it is very valid. if you look now- is, heather? ithink it is very valid. if you look now a - is, heather? ithink it is very valid. if you look now a lot . is, heather? ithink it is very| valid. if you look now a lot of children— valid. if you look now a lot of children in— valid. if you look now a lot of children in high— valid. if you look now a lot of children in high school- valid. if you look now a lot of children in high school have i valid. if you look now a lot of - children in high school have serious anxiety— children in high school have serious anxiety and — children in high school have serious anxiety and mental— children in high school have serious anxiety and mental health - children in high school have serious anxiety and mental health issues. i children in high school have serious| anxiety and mental health issues. a lot of— anxiety and mental health issues. a lot of it _ anxiety and mental health issues. a lot of it is _ anxiety and mental health issues. a lot of it is around _ anxiety and mental health issues. a lot of it is around going _ anxiety and mental health issues. a lot of it is around going to - anxiety and mental health issues. a lot of it is around going to school. l lot of it is around going to school. why is _ lot of it is around going to school. why is this? — lot of it is around going to school. why is this? are _ lot of it is around going to school. why is this? are we _ lot of it is around going to school. why is this? are we setting - lot of it is around going to school. why is this? are we setting theml lot of it is around going to school. i why is this? are we setting them off to a great— why is this? are we setting them off to a great start — why is this? are we setting them off to a great start when _ why is this? are we setting them off to a great start when they— why is this? are we setting them off to a great start when they have - why is this? are we setting them off to a great start when they have had i to a great start when they have had hopefully— to a great start when they have had hopefully up — to a great start when they have had hopefully up good _ to a great start when they have had hopefully up good experience - to a great start when they have had hopefully up good experience of. hopefully up good experience of primary— hopefully up good experience of primary school, _ hopefully up good experience of primary school, where - hopefully up good experience of primary school, where they - hopefully up good experience of primary school, where they are i primary school, where they are literally— primary school, where they are literally tested _ primary school, where they are literally tested to _ primary school, where they are literally tested to a _ primary school, where they are literally tested to a high - primary school, where they are literally tested to a high level, | literally tested to a high level, where — literally tested to a high level, where the _ literally tested to a high level, where the teachers _ literally tested to a high level, where the teachers are - literally tested to a high level, where the teachers are very i literally tested to a high level, - where the teachers are very stressed and anxious? — where the teachers are very stressed and anxious? i— where the teachers are very stressed and anxious? i want— where the teachers are very stressed and anxious? i want to _ where the teachers are very stressed and anxious? i want to ask, - where the teachers are very stressed and anxious? i want to ask, does- where the teachers are very stressed and anxious? i want to ask, does it l and anxious? i want to ask, does it -ive and anxious? i want to ask, does it give them — and anxious? i want to ask, does it give them an— and anxious? i want to ask, does it give them an holistic— and anxious? i want to ask, does it give them an holistic approach - and anxious? i want to ask, does it give them an holistic approach to l give them an holistic approach to education — give them an holistic approach to education at _ give them an holistic approach to education at that _ give them an holistic approach to education at that point? - give them an holistic approach to education at that point? they - give them an holistic approach toj education at that point? they are titerativ— education at that point? they are literally leaving _ education at that point? they are literally leaving high _ education at that point? they are literally leaving high school - education at that point? they are literally leaving high school on i education at that point? they are literally leaving high school on a i literally leaving high school on a downer, — literally leaving high school on a downer, sorry, _ literally leaving high school on a downer, sorry, leaving- literally leaving high school on a downer, sorry, leaving primary. downer, sorry, leaving primary school, — downer, sorry, leaving primary school, and _ downer, sorry, leaving primary school, and going _ downer, sorry, leaving primary school, and going into - downer, sorry, leaving primary school, and going into high - downer, sorry, leaving primary. school, and going into high school with a _ school, and going into high school with a lot — school, and going into high school with a lot of— school, and going into high school with a lot of pressure, _ school, and going into high school with a lot of pressure, if _ school, and going into high school with a lot of pressure, if you - school, and going into high school with a lot of pressure, if you don'tj with a lot of pressure, if you don't -et with a lot of pressure, if you don't get your— with a lot of pressure, if you don't get your sats _ with a lot of pressure, if you don't get your sats you _ with a lot of pressure, if you don't get your sats you won't _ with a lot of pressure, if you don't get your sats you won't be - with a lot of pressure, if you don't get your sats you won't be on - with a lot of pressure, if you don't get your sats you won't be on the right— get your sats you won't be on the right group — get your sats you won't be on the right group we _ get your sats you won't be on the right group. we are _ get your sats you won't be on the right group. we are causing - get your sats you won't be on the right group. we are causing a - get your sats you won't be on the right group. we are causing a lot. get your sats you won't be on the. right group. we are causing a lot of anguish _ right group. we are causing a lot of anguish it— right group. we are causing a lot of anguish it won't— right group. we are causing a lot of anguish. it won't affect _ right group. we are causing a lot of anguish. it won't affect every - anguish. it won't affect every child — anguish. it won't affect every child every— anguish. it won't affect every child. every child _ anguish. it won't affect every child. every child is _ anguish. it won't affect everyj child. every child is different. anguish. it won't affect every - child. every child is different. but i child. every child is different. but i know— child. every child is different. but i know my— child. every child is different. but i know my eldest _ child. every child is different. but i know my eldest daughter- child. every child is different. but. i know my eldest daughter suffered child. every child is different. but- i know my eldest daughter suffered a lot through _ i know my eldest daughter suffered a lot through anxiety _ i know my eldest daughter suffered a lot through anxiety and _ i know my eldest daughter suffered a lot through anxiety and a _ i know my eldest daughter suffered a lot through anxiety and a lot - i know my eldest daughter suffered a lot through anxiety and a lot of- i know my eldest daughter suffered a lot through anxiety and a lot of it - lot through anxiety and a lot of it was linked — lot through anxiety and a lot of it was linked to _ lot through anxiety and a lot of it was linked to sats. _ lot through anxiety and a lot of it was linked to sats. it _ lot through anxiety and a lot of it was linked to sats. it took- lot through anxiety and a lot of it was linked to sats. it took quitel lot through anxiety and a lot of iti was linked to sats. it took quite a white _ was linked to sats. it took quite a white to— was linked to sats. it took quite a white to get— was linked to sats. it took quite a while to get her— was linked to sats. it took quite a while to get her on— was linked to sats. it took quite a while to get her on a _ was linked to sats. it took quite aj while to get her on a comfortable, even _ while to get her on a comfortable, even keel— while to get her on a comfortable, even keel with— while to get her on a comfortable,

even keel with school. _ while to get her on a comfortable, even keel with school. she - while to get her on a comfortable, i even keel with school. she thought that testing — even keel with school. she thought that testing and _ even keel with school. she thought that testing and sats _ even keel with school. she thought that testing and sats was - even keel with school. she thought| that testing and sats was equalling schooi, _ that testing and sats was equalling school, which — that testing and sats was equalling school, which gave _ that testing and sats was equalling school, which gave a _ that testing and sats was equalling school, which gave a negative - school, which gave a negative approach _ school, which gave a negative approach to _ school, which gave a negative approach to education. - school, which gave a negative approach to education.- school, which gave a negative approach to education. yeah. simon in chelmsford. _ approach to education. yeah. simon in chelmsford. is _ approach to education. yeah. simon in chelmsford. is that _ approach to education. yeah. simon in chelmsford. is that a _ approach to education. yeah. simon in chelmsford. is that a yeah - approach to education. yeah. simon in chelmsford. is that a yeah from l in chelmsford. is that a yeah from you? good morning.— in chelmsford. is that a yeah from you? good morning. good morning. ha- you? good morning. good morning. happy friday. _ you? good morning. good morning. happy friday, everyone. _ you? good morning. good morning. happy friday, everyone. happy - happy friday, everyone. happy frida . happy friday, everyone. happy friday. eurovision _ happy friday, everyone. happy friday. eurovision coming - happy friday, everyone. happy i friday. eurovision coming around. happy friday, everyone. happy - friday. eurovision coming around. we are in education this morning. such an important issue. massive response so far. people are so passionate. put your name on a text where you are from as well. flan put your name on a text where you are from as well.— put your name on a text where you are from as well. can i comment on the initial commentss _ are from as well. can i comment on the initial commentss made - are from as well. can i comment on the initial commentss made by - the initial commentss made by grainne? ., ., grainne? you can say whatever you want. grainne? you can say whatever you want- within _ grainne? you can say whatever you want. within reason! _ grainne? you can say whatever you want. within reason! she _ grainne? you can say whatever you | want. within reason! she mentioned the whole concept _ want. within reason! she mentioned the whole concept of _ want. within reason! she mentioned the whole concept of this. _ want. within reason! she mentioned the whole concept of this. that - want. within reason! she mentioned the whole concept of this. that was| the whole concept of this. that was interesting to me. that is where the problems lie. if we are looking at this is having to protect the children's welfare and get a picture of progress at the same time, then

if you look at the way this is done in these goals, my little boy has just done his, there were practice sessions, they got in early for a special breakfast, it has been really highlighted. everybody has made it very important, which clearly puts pressure on the kids. if it is a fair picture of progress, it feels like when we did our a—levels, university exams, we all realised if we didn't work hard enough during the year, it has a flavour of that. i know it is sacrilegious to speak badly of teachers in the education system, but it feels like they are trying to fill the gap of where they have missed out during the year by cramming at the end, which is not giving a picture of progress. and it is not highlighting what it is supposed to highlight of the shortcomings, the people who have been missed, the area is not taught properly. 0verall been missed, the area is not taught properly. overall the welfare of the children, the biggest effect is the way that teachers are dealing with this. it's quite scary to have that

potentially teaches' pay are linked to results. that makes it even more scary. i know that my little boy, he did the ii scary. i know that my little boy, he did the 11 plus earlier in the year, because that is the system where we are, and he was given no assistance, he —— it was a mountain. it has no effect on the teachers. mas he -- it was a mountain. it has no effect on the teachers.— he -- it was a mountain. it has no effect on the teachers. was it your choice for him _ effect on the teachers. was it your choice for him to _ effect on the teachers. was it your choice for him to do _ effect on the teachers. was it your choice for him to do the _ effect on the teachers. was it your choice for him to do the 11 - effect on the teachers. was it your choice for him to do the 11 plus? . effect on the teachers. was it your choice for him to do the 11 plus? itj choice for him to do the 11 plus? it was. it was recommended. that's another minefield, to be honest. i another minefield, to be honest. i know. i have done the phone—ins. i know. i have done the phone—ins. i don't know if it is a good thing or bad thing. he is academic. looking at the level, he has got a couple of other little boys doing the same thing. they have said of the test one particularly difficult. they are talking about 100%. i don't know. i guess it is all relative. you have to pitch the text where it covers the whole spectrum. maybe they are

afraid of getting it wrong and they will all fall flat on their faces. we will see. the overall concern is where this pressure is coming from? it does feel like it is coming from the teachers. it shouldn't put pressure on the teachers, because maybe it is affecting the way they deal with it. maybe it is affecting the way they deal with it— maybe it is affecting the way they dealwith it. ., , , ., deal with it. holly in gainsborough is a t-shirt- _ deal with it. holly in gainsborough is a t-shirt. this _ deal with it. holly in gainsborough is a t-shirt. this is _ deal with it. holly in gainsborough is a t-shirt. this is a _ deal with it. holly in gainsborough is a t-shirt. this is a perfect - is a t—shirt. this is a perfect follow—up. —— is a teacher. holly, good morning. how would you react to the point simon picked up on? i the point simon picked up on? i would say all we want is for our children— would say all we want is for our children to _ would say all we want is for our children to do _ would say all we want is for our children to do the _ would say all we want is for our children to do the very- would say all we want is for our children to do the very best - would say all we want is for ourl children to do the very best they can do — children to do the very best they can do we _ children to do the very best they can do we are— children to do the very best they can do. we are parents. - children to do the very best they can do. we are parents. our- children to do the very best they. can do. we are parents. 0ur motto children to do the very best they- can do. we are parents. 0ur motto is reach _ can do. we are parents. 0ur motto is reach for— can do. we are parents. 0ur motto is reach for the — can do. we are parents. 0ur motto is reach for the stars. _ can do. we are parents. 0ur motto is reach for the stars. we _ can do. we are parents. 0ur motto is reach for the stars. we are _ can do. we are parents. 0ur motto is reach for the stars. we are trying - reach for the stars. we are trying to make — reach for the stars. we are trying to make sure _ reach for the stars. we are trying to make sure they— reach for the stars. we are trying to make sure they have - reach for the stars. we are trying to make sure they have got - reach for the stars. we are trying to make sure they have got all. reach for the stars. we are trying i to make sure they have got all the tools _ to make sure they have got all the tools to _ to make sure they have got all the tools to be — to make sure they have got all the tools to be able _ to make sure they have got all the tools to be able to _ to make sure they have got all the tools to be able to help _ to make sure they have got all the tools to be able to help them. - to make sure they have got all the . tools to be able to help them. these exams _ tools to be able to help them. these exams are _ tools to be able to help them. these exams are definitely— tools to be able to help them. these exams are definitely challenging - tools to be able to help them. these exams are definitely challenging and tricky _ exams are definitely challenging and tricky it— exams are definitely challenging and tricky it is— exams are definitely challenging and tricky it is a — exams are definitely challenging and tricky. it is a stressful— exams are definitely challenging and tricky. it is a stressful time - exams are definitely challenging and tricky. it is a stressful time for- tricky. it is a stressful time for the children. _ tricky. it is a stressful time for the children. but _ tricky. it is a stressful time for the children. but we _ tricky. it is a stressful time for the children. but we are - tricky. it is a stressful time forj the children. but we are giving tricky. it is a stressful time for- the children. but we are giving them as much— the children. but we are giving them as much support _ the children. but we are giving them as much support as _ the children. but we are giving them as much support as possible - the children. but we are giving them as much support as possible to - the children. but we are giving them as much support as possible to help| as much support as possible to help them _ as much support as possible to help them through — as much support as possible to help

them through it _ as much support as possible to help them through it. but— as much support as possible to help them through it.— as much support as possible to help them through it. but why cram? why cram? if it them through it. but why cram? why cram? if it is — them through it. but why cram? why cram? if it is a _ them through it. but why cram? why cram? if it is a picture _ them through it. but why cram? why cram? if it is a picture of _ cram? if it is a picture of progress, why are you cramming? why are you putting this pressure at the end? why is that happening? if it is not fit for purpose, it does put into question why you are doing it. right, so basically, the sats are a test we _ right, so basically, the sats are a test we have — right, so basically, the sats are a test we have to _ right, so basically, the sats are a test we have to do _ right, so basically, the sats are a test we have to do at _ right, so basically, the sats are a test we have to do at the - right, so basically, the sats are a test we have to do at the end - right, so basically, the sats are a test we have to do at the end of. test we have to do at the end of year— test we have to do at the end of year six~ — test we have to do at the end of year six~ so— test we have to do at the end of year six. so this _ test we have to do at the end of year six. so this is _ test we have to do at the end of year six. so this is work - test we have to do at the end of year six. so this is work they. test we have to do at the end of| year six. so this is work they are doing _ year six. so this is work they are doing throughout _ year six. so this is work they are doing throughout their— year six. so this is work they are doing throughout their time - year six. so this is work they are doing throughout their time in l doing throughout their time in primary— doing throughout their time in primary school. _ doing throughout their time in primary school. we _ doing throughout their time in primary school. we work - doing throughout their time in i primary school. we work towards doing throughout their time in - primary school. we work towards the sats throughout _ primary school. we work towards the sats throughout primary. _ primary school. we work towards the sats throughout primary. obviouslyl sats throughout primary. obviously children _ sats throughout primary. obviously children have — sats throughout primary. obviously children have most _ sats throughout primary. obviously children have most things _ sats throughout primary. obviously children have most things because i sats throughout primary. obviouslyl children have most things because of iockdown~ _ children have most things because of iockdown~ they— children have most things because of lockdown. they are _ children have most things because of lockdown. they are having _ children have most things because of lockdown. they are having to - children have most things because of lockdown. they are having to do - children have most things because ofl lockdown. they are having to do more work in _ lockdown. they are having to do more work in year _ lockdown. they are having to do more work in year six — lockdown. they are having to do more work in year six to _ lockdown. they are having to do more work in year six to catch _ lockdown. they are having to do more work in year six to catch up. _ lockdown. they are having to do more work in year six to catch up. this - work in year six to catch up. this is something _ work in year six to catch up. this is something we _ work in year six to catch up. this is something we are _ work in year six to catch up. this is something we are working - work in year six to catch up. this - is something we are working towards. they are _ is something we are working towards. they are trying — is something we are working towards. they are trying to _ is something we are working towards. they are trying to get _ is something we are working towards. they are trying to get all— is something we are working towards. they are trying to get all of— is something we are working towards. they are trying to get all of the - they are trying to get all of the things— they are trying to get all of the things they— they are trying to get all of the things they need _ they are trying to get all of the things they need to _ they are trying to get all of the things they need to answer- things they need to answer

questions _ things they need to answer questions-— things they need to answer questions. things they need to answer cuestions. . , ., , ., questions. yeah, but that is not what is really — questions. yeah, but that is not what is really happening! - questions. yeah, but that is not what is really happening! that l questions. yeah, but that is not| what is really happening! that is not what is happening. what is happening is these schools are trying to ensure that their school gets the best results possible, which is fantastic in one way, but in another way it is causing... it is putting added pressure on the children, to make sure that your school performs well. people hide behind bits and bobs to disguise that, but that is the reality. it's about the school making sure the school does well. and potentially the cost is the welfare of the children. ., ., ., children. the welfare of our children. the welfare of our children is _ children. the welfare of our children is always _ children. the welfare of our l children is always paramount. children. the welfare of our - children is always paramount. we support— children is always paramount. we support them _ children is always paramount. we support them in— children is always paramount. we support them in every— children is always paramount. we support them in every way- children is always paramount. we . support them in every way possible. we are _ support them in every way possible. we are just — support them in every way possible. we are just trying _ support them in every way possible. we are just trying to _ support them in every way possible. we are just trying to make - support them in every way possible. we are just trying to make sure - support them in every way possible. we are just trying to make sure thei we are just trying to make sure the children— we are just trying to make sure the children can — we are just trying to make sure the children can do _ we are just trying to make sure the children can do their— we are just trying to make sure the children can do their best, - we are just trying to make sure the children can do their best, that- we are just trying to make sure the children can do their best, that is. children can do their best, that is all i children can do their best, that is all i can— children can do their best, that is all i can comment _ children can do their best, that is all i can comment on. _ children can do their best, that is all i can comment on.— all i can comment on. kate in crosb . all i can comment on. kate in crosby. thanks, _ all i can comment on. kate in crosby. thanks, everyone. i all i can comment on. kate in - crosby. thanks, everyone. hello, kate. good morning.—

crosby. thanks, everyone. hello, kate. good morning. good morning. what is your— kate. good morning. good morning. what is your considered _ kate. good morning. good morning. what is your considered opinion - kate. good morning. good morning. what is your considered opinion on | what is your considered opinion on this? we are going to happening this question coming up on the screen in a second. i will be glad for everybody listening. it is a cracker. i will do it after we have heard from you, kate. steel yourself, everybody, for that one. so yeah, tell us about your son and what he has been feeling and going through? what he has been feeling and going throu~h? ., ., what he has been feeling and going throu~h? . . , through? yeah, the end game here is to find the performance _ through? yeah, the end game here is to find the performance of— through? yeah, the end game here is to find the performance of the - to find the performance of the schooi~ — to find the performance of the school. from a personal perspective, and from _ school. from a personal perspective, and from my— school. from a personal perspective, and from my child's perspective, who hasjust_ and from my child's perspective, who hasjust turned 11, and from my child's perspective, who has just turned 11, he and from my child's perspective, who hasjust turned 11, he has been beside — hasjust turned 11, he has been beside himself all week. he has been having _ beside himself all week. he has been having panic attacks walking to school, — having panic attacks walking to school, you can't breathe, he is crying — school, you can't breathe, he is crying and _ school, you can't breathe, he is crying. and no matter what i, his family— crying. and no matter what i, his family or— crying. and no matter what i, his family or his _ crying. and no matter what i, his family or his teachers say to him, he is _ family or his teachers say to him, he is thinking he is failing. he thinks — he is thinking he is failing. he thinks he _ he is thinking he is failing. he thinks he is going to have a pass or fail and _ thinks he is going to have a pass or fail and it— thinks he is going to have a pass or fail and it will affect his life. no matter— fail and it will affect his life. no matter how much we tell him this is

not about— matter how much we tell him this is not about him, it is about the school, — not about him, it is about the school, it— not about him, it is about the school, it is about the government, stop worrying, it is nothing about you, _ stop worrying, it is nothing about you. we — stop worrying, it is nothing about you, we have not been able to get through— you, we have not been able to get through to — you, we have not been able to get through to him. and as much as they school— through to him. and as much as they school have — through to him. and as much as they school have been fantastic, we put him in _ school have been fantastic, we put him in a _ school have been fantastic, we put him in a slightly calmer setting, took— him in a slightly calmer setting, took away— him in a slightly calmer setting, took away from the big room with the scary desks _ took away from the big room with the scary desks and the moderators walking — scary desks and the moderators walking up and down, he has still been _ walking up and down, he has still been beside himself. and i worry, and it— been beside himself. and i worry, and it is— been beside himself. and i worry, and it is something i have talked extensively about two other parents, i am absolutely dreading him going to high— i am absolutely dreading him going to high school and having to do further— to high school and having to do further tests and gcses, and worried because _ further tests and gcses, and worried because we — further tests and gcses, and worried because we are already struggling financially. ijust think of because we are already struggling financially. i just think of the emotional... you mentioned emotion earlier— emotional... you mentioned emotion earlier in— emotional... you mentioned emotion earlier in the— emotional... you mentioned emotion earlier in the programme. it is absolutely there. and i think it's disgusting that we put this on these children _ disgusting that we put this on these children. and that's what they are. they— children. and that's what they are. they are _ children. and that's what they are. they are babies. they are children. also, _ they are babies. they are children. also, for— they are babies. they are children. also, for the — they are babies. they are children. also, for the sake of a performance of a whole — also, for the sake of a performance of a whole school. there has to be another _ of a whole school. there has to be another way.

of a whole school. there has to be anotherway. it of a whole school. there has to be another way. it is not right. we are setting _ another way. it is not right. we are setting them up to really struggle in the _ setting them up to really struggle in the future in secondary school. how _ in the future in secondary school. how is _ in the future in secondary school. how is he — in the future in secondary school. how is he right now? is he getting through it? he how is he right now? is he getting throu~h it? ., , ., how is he right now? is he getting through it?— how is he right now? is he getting throu~h it? ., , ., ., ., ., through it? he has got one more exam toda , i through it? he has got one more exam today. i believe- _ through it? he has got one more exam today, i believe. he— through it? he has got one more exam today, i believe. he can _ through it? he has got one more exam today, i believe. he can see _ through it? he has got one more exam today, i believe. he can see light - today, i believe. he can see light at the _ today, i believe. he can see light at the end — today, i believe. he can see light at the end of the tunnel. but ijust need _ at the end of the tunnel. but ijust need to— at the end of the tunnel. but ijust need to look at his eyes in the morning _ need to look at his eyes in the morning. he is not himself. he is quiet _ morning. he is not himself. he is quiet he — morning. he is not himself. he is quiet. he won't talk. he isjust trying — quiet. he won't talk. he isjust trying to— quiet. he won't talk. he isjust trying to get through this week. that shouldn't be at ten years, 11 years _ that shouldn't be at ten years, 11 years old — that shouldn't be at ten years, 11 years old. it's not right. we are putting — years old. it's not right. we are putting the _ years old. it's not right. we are putting the whole school's performance... bear in mind we are still recovering from covid, the matter— still recovering from covid, the matter how many years it's been. for eo - le matter how many years it's been. fr?" people listening right now who say, well, it's good to feel the pressure, to experience pressure, because gcses are coming down the line. and he has to have been through this stressful situation too, in a way, psychologically be prepared for what's to come. what

would you say to those people? i would you say to those people? i think that is fine if we help them prepare — think that is fine if we help them prepare for that matter. but what i'm hearing from other sources is that the — i'm hearing from other sources is that the exams themselves, the question— that the exams themselves, the question were difficult. there is no way i _ question were difficult. there is no way i could — question were difficult. there is no way i could do that. they are looking — way i could do that. they are looking at _ way i could do that. they are looking at past papers. if the past papers _ looking at past papers. if the past papers and are a reflection of what they are _ papers and are a reflection of what they are going to be asked coming forward, _ they are going to be asked coming forward, if— they are going to be asked coming forward, if the government don't -ive forward, if the government don't give them — forward, if the government don't give them more support on exactly what is _ give them more support on exactly what is coming up, it is not right, it is not— what is coming up, it is not right, it is not fair~ _ what is coming up, it is not right, it is not fair. that is not to say the _ it is not fair. that is not to say the school _ it is not fair. that is not to say the school have not been supportive. but we _ the school have not been supportive. but i've mentioned before, this is about— but i've mentioned before, this is about a _ but i've mentioned before, this is about a school overall. the school are going — about a school overall. the school are going to try to get the best they— are going to try to get the best they can — are going to try to get the best they can out of these children. is that this — they can out of these children. is that this way? i don't think it is. is that this way? i don't think it is. is that _ that this way? i don't think it is. is that the —

that this way? i don't think it is. is that the flaw in the system, holly and gainsborough? it is about the system are not the kids? i holly and gainsborough? it is about the system are not the kids? i think it is tricky- — the system are not the kids? i think it is tricky. we would _ the system are not the kids? i think it is tricky. we would rather - the system are not the kids? i think it is tricky. we would rather they . it is tricky. we would rather they be an— it is tricky. we would rather they be an alternative _ it is tricky. we would rather they be an alternative way _ it is tricky. we would rather they be an alternative way it - it is tricky. we would rather they be an alternative way it was - it is tricky. we would rather they be an alternative way it was up l it is tricky. we would rather they| be an alternative way it was up to my teacher — be an alternative way it was up to my teacher assessment. - be an alternative way it was up to. my teacher assessment. obviously maxis— my teacher assessment. obviously maxis is— my teacher assessment. obviously maxis is what — my teacher assessment. obviously maxis is what everybody— my teacher assessment. obviously maxis is what everybody has - my teacher assessment. obviously maxis is what everybody has to - my teacher assessment. obviouslyj maxis is what everybody has to do. but yeah. — maxis is what everybody has to do. but yeah. it — maxis is what everybody has to do. but yeah. it is— maxis is what everybody has to do. but yeah, it is definitely _ maxis is what everybody has to do. but yeah, it is definitely tricky. - maxis is what everybody has to do. but yeah, it is definitely tricky. i. but yeah, it is definitely tricky. i can understand _ but yeah, it is definitely tricky. i can understand the _ but yeah, it is definitely tricky. i can understand the other- but yeah, it is definitely tricky. i can understand the other callers but yeah, it is definitely tricky. i. can understand the other callers on what they— can understand the other callers on what they are — can understand the other callers on what they are saying. _ can understand the other callers on what they are saying. our- can understand the other callers on what they are saying.— what they are saying. our children find it hard, _ what they are saying. our children find it hard, definitely. _ what they are saying. our children find it hard, definitely. who - what they are saying. our children find it hard, definitely. who was i find it hard, definitely. who was sa inc, find it hard, definitely. who was saying. can _ find it hard, definitely. who was saying. can i — find it hard, definitely. who was saying. can ijust— find it hard, definitely. who was saying, can ijust add? - find it hard, definitely. who was saying, can ijust add? it - find it hard, definitely. who was saying, can i just add? it was i find it hard, definitely. who was l saying, can ijust add? it was me, saying, can i 'ust add? it was me, sor . saying, can i 'ust add? it was me, sorry. kate. — saying, can ijust add? it was me, sorry. kate. don't— saying, can ijust add? it was me, sorry. kate. don't apologise. - saying, can ijust add? it was me, sorry. kate. don't apologise. you| sorry. kate. don't apologise. you mentioned _ sorry. kate. don't apologise. you mentioned about _ sorry. kate. don't apologise. you mentioned about preparing - sorry. kate. don't apologise. you mentioned about preparing them | sorry. kate. don't apologise. you i mentioned about preparing them for secondary— mentioned about preparing them for secondary school, gcses. i think when _ secondary school, gcses. i think when it— secondary school, gcses. i think when it gets to that point there is a shift _ when it gets to that point there is a shift in — when it gets to that point there is a shift in the children's behaviour. there _ a shift in the children's behaviour. there is— a shift in the children's behaviour. there is a — a shift in the children's behaviour. there is a shift in the mindset. they— there is a shift in the mindset. they are — there is a shift in the mindset. they are more adult because of the surroundings they are in. when they -et surroundings they are in. when they get to— surroundings they are in. when they get to the _ surroundings they are in. when they get to the gcses, i am hoping any way with— get to the gcses, i am hoping any way with my child, that he is a bit more _ way with my child, that he is a bit more mature, than he can cope better~ — more mature, than he can cope better. hopefully we will understand better—

better. hopefully we will understand better what is going on. i think at that age — better what is going on. i think at that age they are mentally prepared for that— that age they are mentally prepared for that type of environment. this reall is for that type of environment. this really is like _ for that type of environment. this really is like too _ for that type of environment. try 3 really is like too much, too young. that is the whole thing. what is anybody think? does this conversation we're having now strike at heart of the whole philosophy of exams, the educational norm in this country, sitting down and answering questions? some brilliant kids, brilliant and other stuff, brilliant communication skills, critical thinking, to aptitude in other areas and potential in other areas, they might not be good at that, so it is classically the blunt instrument. what is anybody think about that? yeah, can i come on that? what is anybody think about that? i yeah, can i come on that?- it yeah, can i come on that? please. it reminds me — yeah, can i come on that? please. it reminds me of _ yeah, can i come on that? please. it reminds me of the _ yeah, can i come on that? please. it reminds me of the old _ yeah, can i come on that? please. it reminds me of the old ad _ yeah, can i come on that? please. it reminds me of the old ad eyes - yeah, can i come on that? please. it reminds me of the old ad eyes that l reminds me of the old ad eyes that exams _ reminds me of the old ad eyes that

exams assess how old —— good you are doing _ exams assess how old —— good you are doing exams — exams assess how old —— good you are doing exams. it feels like an enormous amount of pressure. yes, gcses _ enormous amount of pressure. yes, gcses are — enormous amount of pressure. yes, gcses are coming. but by then they are almost— gcses are coming. but by then they are almost young adults. they have different _ are almost young adults. they have different coping mechanisms. and the whole _ different coping mechanisms. and the whole philosophy of the test thing as well, _ whole philosophy of the test thing as well, it — whole philosophy of the test thing as well, it feeds into every big conversation that we need to have about _ conversation that we need to have about a _ conversation that we need to have about a department for education and their attitude towards education. do we dig _ their attitude towards education. do we dig league tables, for example? -- ditch _ we dig league tables, for example? —— ditch. how much do we value league _ —— ditch. how much do we value league tables? we used to not have league _ league tables? we used to not have league tables. we used to make a judgment — league tables. we used to make a judgment about whether that school was right— judgment about whether that school was right for your kid and that is that _ was right for your kid and that is that. there's a whole set of issues behind _ that. there's a whole set of issues behind these sats question, actually _ behind these sats question, actually, about the education system and how— actually, about the education system and how it _ actually, about the education system and how it has become quite sort of metric— and how it has become quite sort of metric driven. as the male caller said, _ metric driven. as the male caller said. i_ metric driven. as the male caller said. ican't— metric driven. as the male caller

said, i can't remember his name, sorry, _ said, i can't remember his name, sorry, it _ said, i can't remember his name, sorry it does _ said, i can't remember his name, sorry, it does seem to be about appearance and putting a show on, how great— appearance and putting a show on, how great the school is, how wonderful they are. and not an authentic— wonderful they are. and not an authentic measure of ability and variety— authentic measure of ability and variety of— authentic measure of ability and variety of different skills the children— variety of different skills the children might have in that school. i children might have in that school. i agree _ children might have in that school. i agree with what you are saying. is the curriculum even built for purpose for employers based on the testing system we have? when you think of how the world of work is changing. the skills required. it is moving at a very fast pace. we are talking about al technology at the moment. why are we focusing on teaching are my children? it has to be a certain way when it should be more of a governance idea. teaching them to think outside the box. it is them to think outside the box. it is a vital part — them to think outside the box. it is a vital part of— them to think outside the box. it is a vital part of this money would set at the heart of this. what it —— what has it been like for you, kate? you exemplify what a lot of mums and

dads and carers have been going through, looking at the stress of a child who has never explained anything like this before and is still very much a child? what has been like you?— been like you? oh, it has been horrific. he _ been like you? oh, it has been horrific. he has— been like you? oh, it has been horrific. he has been _ been like you? oh, it has been horrific. he has been in - been like you? oh, it has been horrific. he has been in bed i been like you? oh, it has been l horrific. he has been in bed with been like you? oh, it has been - horrific. he has been in bed with me every— horrific. he has been in bed with me every night — horrific. he has been in bed with me every night sobbing his heart out. he tells— every night sobbing his heart out. he tells me he is sad because he is scared _ he tells me he is sad because he is scared of— he tells me he is sad because he is scared of failing. he was worrying about— scared of failing. he was worrying about his — scared of failing. he was worrying about his future. like, he hasjust turned _ about his future. like, he hasjust turned it — about his future. like, he hasjust turned 11. he was crying. honestly, it's been — turned 11. he was crying. honestly, it's been i— turned 11. he was crying. honestly, it's been... i can't explain how it's been... ican't explain how awful— it's been... i can't explain how awful it's — it's been... i can't explain how awful it's been as a family. he is such— awful it's been as a family. he is such a _ awful it's been as a family. he is such a beautiful child. it has been horrific _ such a beautiful child. it has been horrific it — such a beautiful child. it has been horrific. it has been awful. and i never. _ horrific. it has been awful. and i never. ever— horrific. it has been awful. and i never, everthought horrific. it has been awful. and i never, ever thought it was going to be like _ never, ever thought it was going to be like this — never, ever thought it was going to be like this. it was literally thrown _ be like this. it was literally thrown on us last week. i knew he was worried — thrown on us last week. i knew he was worried. but you can't really deal— was worried. but you can't really deal with— was worried. but you can't really deal with it — was worried. but you can't really deal with it until it happens. how did ou deal with it until it happens. how did you deal _ deal with it until it happens. how did you deal with _ deal with it until it happens. firm? did you deal with it? what did you say to him? i

did you deal with it? what did you say to him?— say to him? i let my 11-year-old child sleep _ say to him? i let my 11-year-old child sleep with _ say to him? i let my 11-year-old child sleep with me. _ say to him? i let my 11-year-old child sleep with me. that - say to him? i let my 11-year-old child sleep with me. that is - say to him? i let my 11-year-old| child sleep with me. that is what say to him? i let my 11-year-old l child sleep with me. that is what i let them _ child sleep with me. that is what i let them do. just hold him and tried to reassure — let them do. just hold him and tried to reassure him. that is all we can do as— to reassure him. that is all we can do as parents. and just try to help them _ do as parents. and just try to help them through it. i had to watch him do that _ them through it. i had to watch him do that it _ them through it. i had to watch him do that. it probably feels a bit like helicopter parents, we are worrying — like helicopter parents, we are worrying too much, we should just let them _ worrying too much, we should just let them get on with it. but when you see _ let them get on with it. but when you see a — let them get on with it. but when you see a child that is such a good child. _ you see a child that is such a good child. who — you see a child that is such a good child. who is — you see a child that is such a good child, who is strong in every other way. _ child, who is strong in every other way, enjoying their childhood, we have _ way, enjoying their childhood, we have a _ way, enjoying their childhood, we have a lovely family life, a loving family— have a lovely family life, a loving family home, just to be destroyed by this thankless task for the government because my performances of schools. _ government because my performances of schools, it's heartbreaking. tony and oxfordshire, _ of schools, it's heartbreaking. tori; and oxfordshire, good morning. is of schools, it's heartbreaking. tony and oxfordshire, good morning. is it pointless? and oxfordshire, good morning. is it ointless? , . pointless? sorry, can you say that auain? pointless? sorry, can you say that again? yeah. _ pointless? sorry, can you say that again? yeah, sorry. _ pointless? sorry, can you say that again? yeah, sorry. it— pointless? sorry, can you say that again? yeah, sorry. it pointless? | again? yeah, sorry. it pointless? so, sats

again? yeah, sorry. it pointless? so. sats are _ again? yeah, sorry. it pointless? so, sats are pretty _ again? yeah, sorry. it pointless? so, sats are pretty pointless, i again? yeah, sorry. it pointless? i so, sats are pretty pointless, yeah. because _ so, sats are pretty pointless, yeah. because they — so, sats are pretty pointless, yeah. because they are _ so, sats are pretty pointless, yeah. because they are so _ so, sats are pretty pointless, yeah. because they are so inaccurate. - so, sats are pretty pointless, yeah. because they are so inaccurate. myl because they are so inaccurate. my two daughters _ because they are so inaccurate. my two daughters went _ because they are so inaccurate. my two daughters went through - because they are so inaccurate. my two daughters went through the . because they are so inaccurate. my. two daughters went through the sats some years _ two daughters went through the sats some years ago. _ two daughters went through the sats some years ago, because _ two daughters went through the sats some years ago, because they - two daughters went through the sats some years ago, because they are . two daughters went through the sats some years ago, because they are i9| some years ago, because they are 19 and i7 _ some years ago, because they are 19 and 17 now — some years ago, because they are 19 and 17 now they— some years ago, because they are 19 and 17 now. they seems _ some years ago, because they are 19 and 17 now. they seems to _ some years ago, because they are 19 and 17 now. they seems to be - some years ago, because they are 19 and 17 now. they seems to be this i and 17 now. they seems to be this misunderstanding _ and17 now. they seems to be this misunderstanding in— and17 now. they seems to be this misunderstanding in primary- and 17 now. they seems to be this . misunderstanding in primary schools, even some _ misunderstanding in primary schools, even some primary— misunderstanding in primary schools, even some primary head _ misunderstanding in primary schools, even some primary head teachers - misunderstanding in primary schools, i even some primary head teachers seem to think— even some primary head teachers seem to think that— even some primary head teachers seem to think that sats _ even some primary head teachers seem to think that sats are _ even some primary head teachers seem to think that sats are really— even some primary head teachers seem to think that sats are reallyjust - to think that sats are reallyjust checking — to think that sats are reallyjust checking the _ to think that sats are reallyjust checking the school, _ to think that sats are reallyjust checking the school, nothing - to think that sats are reallyjust checking the school, nothing toi to think that sats are reallyjust i checking the school, nothing to do with the _ checking the school, nothing to do with the children _ checking the school, nothing to do with the children and _ checking the school, nothing to do with the children and their- checking the school, nothing to do with the children and their future, | with the children and their future, but it— with the children and their future, but it is— with the children and their future, but it is completely _ with the children and their future, but it is completely untrue. - with the children and their future, but it is completely untrue. when| but it is completely untrue. when they get— but it is completely untrue. when they get to — but it is completely untrue. when they get to secondary _ but it is completely untrue. when they get to secondary school - but it is completely untrue. when they get to secondary school so l but it is completely untrue. when- they get to secondary school so many of the _ they get to secondary school so many of the tracking — they get to secondary school so many of the tracking systems _ they get to secondary school so many of the tracking systems are _ they get to secondary school so many of the tracking systems are to - they get to secondary school so many of the tracking systems are to do - of the tracking systems are to do with how— of the tracking systems are to do with how they— of the tracking systems are to do with how they did _ of the tracking systems are to do with how they did and _ of the tracking systems are to do with how they did and value - of the tracking systems are to do. with how they did and value added improvement— with how they did and value added improvement compared _ with how they did and value added improvement compared to - with how they did and value added improvement compared to how. with how they did and value added i improvement compared to how they with how they did and value added - improvement compared to how they did when they— improvement compared to how they did when they were — improvement compared to how they did when they were ten _ improvement compared to how they did when they were ten or— improvement compared to how they did when they were ten or11_ improvement compared to how they did when they were ten or 11 years - improvement compared to how they did when they were ten or 11 years old. - when they were ten or 11 years old. from _ when they were ten or 11 years old. from my— when they were ten or 11 years old. from my daughter's' _ when they were ten or 11 years old. from my daughter's' point - when they were ten or 11 years old. from my daughter's' point of - when they were ten or 11 years old. from my daughter's' point of view, they were — from my daughter's' point of view, they were at — from my daughter's' point of view, they were at school _ from my daughter's' point of view, they were at school where - from my daughter's' point of view, they were at school where they. they were at school where they didn't _ they were at school where they didn't do— they were at school where they didn't do so— they were at school where they didn't do so well— they were at school where they didn't do so well in— they were at school where they didn't do so well in the - they were at school where they didn't do so well in the sats. l they were at school where they| didn't do so well in the sats. $1 dodig _ didn't do so well in the sats. $1 dodig attract — didn't do so well in the sats. $1 dodig attract all— didn't do so well in the sats. $1 dodig attract all the _ didn't do so well in the sats. $1 dodig attract all the way- didn't do so well in the sats. $1 i dodig attract all the way through. she got— dodig attract all the way through. she got aspirational— dodig attract all the way through. she got aspirational grades - dodig attract all the way through. she got aspirational grades given| dodig attract all the way through. i she got aspirational grades given to all the _ she got aspirational grades given to all the way— she got aspirational grades given to all the way through _ she got aspirational grades given to all the way through the _ she got aspirational grades given to all the way through the next - she got aspirational grades given to all the way through the next four i she got aspirational grades given to all the way through the next four to| all the way through the next four to five years. — all the way through the next four to five years, depending _ all the way through the next four to five years, depending on _ all the way through the next four to five years, depending on what - all the way through the next four to five years, depending on what he i all the way through the next four to. five years, depending on what he did when _ five years, depending on what he did when she _ five years, depending on what he did when she was— five years, depending on what he did when she was ten _ five years, depending on what he did when she was ten or— five years, depending on what he did when she was ten or11._ five years, depending on what he did when she was ten or 11. she - five years, depending on what he did when she was ten or 11. she was - five years, depending on what he did when she was ten or 11. she was in i when she was ten or 11. she was in the top _ when she was ten or 11. she was in the top english _ when she was ten or 11. she was in the top english said. _ when she was ten or 11. she was in the top english said. everybody. when she was ten or 11. she was in. the top english said. everybody else was told _ the top english said. everybody else was told they— the top english said. everybody else was told they had _ the top english said. everybody else was told they had a _ the top english said. everybody else was told they had a grade _ the top english said. everybody else was told they had a grade of - the top english said. everybody else was told they had a grade of eight, i was told they had a grade of eight, nine. _ was told they had a grade of eight,

nine. seven— was told they had a grade of eight, nine, seven and _ was told they had a grade of eight, nine, seven and she _ was told they had a grade of eight, nine, seven and she was _ was told they had a grade of eight, nine, seven and she was given- was told they had a grade of eight, | nine, seven and she was given five. she came _ nine, seven and she was given five. she came out — nine, seven and she was given five. she came out in— nine, seven and she was given five. she came out in tears. _ nine, seven and she was given five. she came out in tears. when- nine, seven and she was given five. she came out in tears. when i- she came out in tears. when i challenged _ she came out in tears. when i challenged the _ she came out in tears. when i challenged the school- she came out in tears. when i challenged the school they. she came out in tears. when i. challenged the school they said it was because _ challenged the school they said it was because of— challenged the school they said it was because of the _ challenged the school they said it was because of the data - challenged the school they said it was because of the data they- challenged the school they said it was because of the data they hadj was because of the data they had about— was because of the data they had about how — was because of the data they had about how she _ was because of the data they had about how she did _ was because of the data they had about how she did when - was because of the data they had about how she did when she - was because of the data they had about how she did when she was| about how she did when she was ten or ii about how she did when she was ten or it years _ about how she did when she was ten or it years old — about how she did when she was ten or 11 years old. there _ about how she did when she was ten or 11 years old. there was _ about how she did when she was ten or 11 years old. there was a - about how she did when she was ten or 11 years old. there was a school i or 11 years old. there was a school trip to _ or 11 years old. there was a school trip to oxford _ or 11 years old. there was a school trip to oxford university. - or 11 years old. there was a school trip to oxford university. she - trip to oxford university. she wasn't — trip to oxford university. she wasn't invited _ trip to oxford university. she wasn't invited to _ trip to oxford university. she wasn't invited to it. _ trip to oxford university. she wasn't invited to it. she - trip to oxford university. she i wasn't invited to it. she missed trip to oxford university. she - wasn't invited to it. she missed out on it _ wasn't invited to it. she missed out on it and _ wasn't invited to it. she missed out on it and when— wasn't invited to it. she missed out on it. and when i— wasn't invited to it. she missed out on it. and when i asked _ wasn't invited to it. she missed out on it. and when i asked why, - wasn't invited to it. she missed out on it. and when i asked why, she i wasn't invited to it. she missed out. on it. and when i asked why, she was upset. _ on it. and when i asked why, she was upset. they— on it. and when i asked why, she was upset. they said — on it. and when i asked why, she was upset. they said it— on it. and when i asked why, she was upset, they said it was _ on it. and when i asked why, she was upset, they said it was because - on it. and when i asked why, she was upset, they said it was because she i upset, they said it was because she wasn't _ upset, they said it was because she wasn't identified _ upset, they said it was because she wasn't identified as _ upset, they said it was because she wasn't identified as a _ upset, they said it was because she wasn't identified as a child - upset, they said it was because she wasn't identified as a child like - upset, they said it was because she wasn't identified as a child like to i wasn't identified as a child like to -et wasn't identified as a child like to get to— wasn't identified as a child like to get to oxford _ wasn't identified as a child like to get to oxford university. - wasn't identified as a child like to| get to oxford university. because wasn't identified as a child like to i get to oxford university. because of tests she _ get to oxford university. because of tests she took — get to oxford university. because of tests she took when _ get to oxford university. because of tests she took when she _ get to oxford university. because of tests she took when she was - get to oxford university. because of tests she took when she was ten - get to oxford university. because of tests she took when she was ten ori tests she took when she was ten or 11 tests she took when she was ten or it years— tests she took when she was ten or it years old — tests she took when she was ten or 11 years old. this _ tests she took when she was ten or 11 years old. this was _ tests she took when she was ten or 11 years old. this was when - tests she took when she was ten or 11 years old. this was when she - tests she took when she was ten or| 11 years old. this was when she was about— 11 years old. this was when she was about 15 _ 11 years old. this was when she was about 15. because _ 11 years old. this was when she was about 15. because of— 11 years old. this was when she was about 15. because of how _ 11 years old. this was when she was about 15. because of how she - 11 years old. this was when she was about 15. because of how she had i about 15. because of how she had done _ about 15. because of how she had done in _ about 15. because of how she had done in the — about 15. because of how she had done in the sats, _ about 15. because of how she had done in the sats, she _ about 15. because of how she had done in the sats, she wasn't - done in the sats, she wasn't invited — done in the sats, she wasn't invited. everybody— done in the sats, she wasn't invited. everybody else - done in the sats, she wasn't invited. everybody else in . done in the sats, she wasn'tl invited. everybody else in her group. — invited. everybody else in her group. they— invited. everybody else in her group. they were _ invited. everybody else in her group, they were invited - invited. everybody else in her group, they were invited butl invited. everybody else in her. group, they were invited but she wasn't — group, they were invited but she wasn't the _ group, they were invited but she wasn't. the school's— group, they were invited but she wasn't. the school's response i group, they were invited but she i wasn't. the school's response was, sorry. _ wasn't. the school's response was, sorry. it _ wasn't. the school's response was, sorry. it was — wasn't. the school's response was, sorry. it was based _ wasn't. the school's response was, sorry, it was based on _ wasn't. the school's response was, sorry, it was based on data. - wasn't. the school's response was, sorry, it was based on data. i- wasn't. the school's response was, | sorry, it was based on data. i asked what _ sorry, it was based on data. i asked what the _ sorry, it was based on data. i asked what the data — sorry, it was based on data. i asked what the data was _ sorry, it was based on data. i asked what the data was and _ sorry, it was based on data. i asked what the data was and they - sorry, it was based on data. i asked what the data was and they said - sorry, it was based on data. i asked what the data was and they said it i what the data was and they said it was the _ what the data was and they said it was the sats _ what the data was and they said it was the sats-— what the data was and they said it was the sats. that makes me feel ve sad was the sats. that makes me feel very sad hearing — was the sats. that makes me feel very sad hearing that, _ was the sats. that makes me feel very sad hearing that, being - was the sats. that makes me feel very sad hearing that, being a - very sad hearing that, being a father of four girls. wow. what did you say to her? a lot of this is

about telling your kids that distance doesn't matter when so many other people are saying it does? it was horrible to hear her and talk about _ it was horrible to hear her and talk about it _ it was horrible to hear her and talk about it and — it was horrible to hear her and talk about it and be _ it was horrible to hear her and talk about it and be in _ it was horrible to hear her and talk about it and be in tears. _ it was horrible to hear her and talk about it and be in tears. i'm - it was horrible to hear her and talk about it and be in tears. i'm a - about it and be in tears. i'm a primary— about it and be in tears. i'm a primary teacher, _ about it and be in tears. i'm a primary teacher, i— about it and be in tears. i'm a primary teacher, i even - about it and be in tears. i'm a primary teacher, i even had i about it and be in tears. i'm a i primary teacher, i even had the happy— primary teacher, i even had the happy experience _ primary teacher, i even had the happy experience of— primary teacher, i even had the happy experience of being - primary teacher, i even had the happy experience of being a - primary teacher, i even had the - happy experience of being a primary supply— happy experience of being a primary supply teacher — happy experience of being a primary supply teacher for _ happy experience of being a primary supply teacher for most _ happy experience of being a primary supply teacher for most of - happy experience of being a primary supply teacher for most of my- supply teacher for most of my career. — supply teacher for most of my career. i— supply teacher for most of my career, i spoke _ supply teacher for most of my career, i spoke to— supply teacher for most of my career, i spoke to you - supply teacher for most of my career, i spoke to you in - supply teacher for most of my career, i spoke to you in the i supply teacher for most of my- career, i spoke to you in the week after— career, i spoke to you in the week after the — career, i spoke to you in the week after the poor— career, i spoke to you in the week after the poor head _ career, i spoke to you in the week after the poor head teacher- after the poor head teacher committed _ after the poor head teacher committed suicide... - after the poor head teacher committed suicide. . .- after the poor head teacher committed suicide... when we were discussina committed suicide... when we were discussing 0fsted. _ committed suicide. .. when we were discussing 0fsted. i— committed suicide. .. when we were discussing 0fsted. i will— committed suicide. .. when we were discussing 0fsted. i will never- discussing 0fsted. i will never forget that conversation. h0. discussing 0fsted. i will never forget that conversation. no, it was terrible, wasn't _ forget that conversation. no, it was terrible, wasn't it? _ forget that conversation. no, it was terrible, wasn't it? there _ forget that conversation. no, it was terrible, wasn't it? there are - forget that conversation. no, it was terrible, wasn't it? there are so - terrible, wasn't it? there are so many— terrible, wasn't it? there are so many things— terrible, wasn't it? there are so many things are _ terrible, wasn't it? there are so many things are dysfunctional. terrible, wasn't it? there are so| many things are dysfunctional in terrible, wasn't it? there are so- many things are dysfunctional in our education _ many things are dysfunctional in our education system, _ many things are dysfunctional in our education system, sadly— many things are dysfunctional in our education system, sadly we - many things are dysfunctional in our education system, sadly we have i education system, sadly we have people _ education system, sadly we have people at— education system, sadly we have people at the _ education system, sadly we have people at the top _ education system, sadly we have people at the top of— education system, sadly we have people at the top of it _ education system, sadly we have people at the top of it in - people at the top of it in government— people at the top of it in government who - people at the top of it inj government who change people at the top of it in _ government who change departments every couple — government who change departments every couple of— government who change departments every couple of years _ government who change departments every couple of years and _ government who change departments every couple of years and are - government who change departments every couple of years and are just - every couple of years and are just looking _ every couple of years and are just looking at — every couple of years and are just looking at the _ every couple of years and are just looking at the next _ every couple of years and are just looking at the next post, - every couple of years and are just looking at the next post, not - every couple of years and are just| looking at the next post, not even teachers _ looking at the next post, not even teachers most _ looking at the next post, not even teachers most of _ looking at the next post, not even teachers most of the _ looking at the next post, not even teachers most of the time. - looking at the next post, not even teachers most of the time. as - looking at the next post, not even teachers most of the time. as fari looking at the next post, not even i teachers most of the time. as far as sats— teachers most of the time. as far as sats tesco. — teachers most of the time. as far as sats tesco. i— teachers most of the time. as far as sats tesco, i tutored _ teachers most of the time. as far as sats tesco, i tutored a _ teachers most of the time. as far as sats tesco, i tutored a lot - teachers most of the time. as far as sats tesco, i tutored a lot because i sats tesco, i tutored a lot because i sats tesco, i tutored a lot because i had _ sats tesco, i tutored a lot because i had a _ sats tesco, i tutored a lot because i had a happy— sats tesco, i tutored a lot because i had a happy experience _ sats tesco, i tutored a lot because i had a happy experience of- sats tesco, i tutored a lot because i had a happy experience of doing i sats tesco, i tutored a lot because i had a happy experience of doing a day in _ i had a happy experience of doing a day in school. — i had a happy experience of doing a day in school, going _ i had a happy experience of doing a day in school, going away- i had a happy experience of doing a day in school, going away and - i had a happy experience of doing a day in school, going away and not i day in school, going away and not having _ day in school, going away and not having all— day in school, going away and not having all the _ day in school, going away and not having all the pressures, - day in school, going away and not having all the pressures, so - day in school, going away and not having all the pressures, so i - having all the pressures, so i tutored — having all the pressures, so i tutored afterwards, - having all the pressures, so i tutored afterwards, and - having all the pressures, so i| tutored afterwards, and often having all the pressures, so i - tutored afterwards, and often people asked _ tutored afterwards, and often people asked me _ tutored afterwards, and often people asked me to— tutored afterwards, and often people asked me to tutor— tutored afterwards, and often people asked me to tutor because _ tutored afterwards, and often people asked me to tutor because they- tutored afterwards, and often people

asked me to tutor because they were worried _ asked me to tutor because they were worried about — asked me to tutor because they were worried about sats _ asked me to tutor because they were worried about sats test _ asked me to tutor because they were worried about sats test analysis - asked me to tutor because they were worried about sats test analysis to i worried about sats test analysis to say, worried about sats test analysis to say. don't — worried about sats test analysis to say. don't worry. _ worried about sats test analysis to say. don't worry. i— worried about sats test analysis to say, don't worry, i believe - worried about sats test analysis to say, don't worry, i believe that - worried about sats test analysis to say, don't worry, i believe that as. say, don't worry, i believe that as well. _ say, don't worry, i believe that as well. this— say, don't worry, i believe that as well. this is— say, don't worry, i believe that as well, this isjust _ say, don't worry, i believe that as well, this isjust for— say, don't worry, i believe that as well, this is just for the _ say, don't worry, i believe that as well, this isjust for the school, i well, this isjust for the school, to try— well, this isjust for the school, to try and — well, this isjust for the school, to try and take _ well, this isjust for the school, to try and take the _ well, this isjust for the school, to try and take the pressure - well, this isjust for the school, | to try and take the pressure up, tell your— to try and take the pressure up, tell your children— to try and take the pressure up, tell your children not— to try and take the pressure up, tell your children not to - to try and take the pressure up, tell your children not to worry, i tell your children not to worry, they— tell your children not to worry, they don't— tell your children not to worry, they don't need _ tell your children not to worry, they don't need to _ tell your children not to worry, they don't need to worry- tell your children not to worry, j they don't need to worry about tell your children not to worry, - they don't need to worry about this at all. _ they don't need to worry about this at all. it's— they don't need to worry about this at all. it's not— they don't need to worry about this at all, it's not going _ they don't need to worry about this at all, it's not going to— they don't need to worry about this at all, it's not going to track- at all, it's not going to track them. — at all, it's not going to track them. and _ at all, it's not going to track- them, and i was wrong. just as some head _ them, and i was wrong. just as some head teachers — them, and i was wrong. just as some head teachers seem _ them, and i was wrong. just as some head teachers seem to _ them, and i was wrong. just as some head teachers seem to still— them, and i was wrong. just as some head teachers seem to still to - them, and i was wrong. just as some head teachers seem to still to still i head teachers seem to still to still think_ head teachers seem to still to still think that — head teachers seem to still to still think that in — head teachers seem to still to still think that in primary. _ head teachers seem to still to still think that in primary. as _ head teachers seem to still to still think that in primary. as opposedl head teachers seem to still to still i think that in primary. as opposed to what happens — think that in primary. as opposed to what happens when _ think that in primary. as opposed to what happens when the _ think that in primary. as opposed to what happens when the children - think that in primary. as opposed to l what happens when the children leave and go _ what happens when the children leave and go to— what happens when the children leave and go to the — what happens when the children leave and go to the next _ what happens when the children leave and go to the next school. _ what happens when the children leave and go to the next school. i _ what happens when the children leave and go to the next school. i felt - and go to the next school. i felt sorry— and go to the next school. i felt sorry for— and go to the next school. i felt sorry for the _ and go to the next school. i felt sorry for the parents _ and go to the next school. i felt sorry for the parents who - and go to the next school. i felt sorry for the parents who were i sorry for the parents who were asking — sorry for the parents who were asking me _ sorry for the parents who were asking me to _ sorry for the parents who were asking me to tutor, _ sorry for the parents who were i asking me to tutor, particularly, because — asking me to tutor, particularly, because sats _ asking me to tutor, particularly, because sats tests, _ asking me to tutor, particularly, because sats tests, i— asking me to tutor, particularly, because sats tests, i tried - asking me to tutor, particularly, because sats tests, i tried to i because sats tests, i tried to downplay— because sats tests, i tried to downplay it— because sats tests, i tried to downplay it but _ because sats tests, i tried to downplay it but i— because sats tests, i tried to downplay it but i was - because sats tests, i tried to downplay it but i was naive i because sats tests, i tried to - downplay it but i was naive myself and did _ downplay it but i was naive myself and did not — downplay it but i was naive myself and did not really— downplay it but i was naive myself and did not really understand - downplay it but i was naive myselfi and did not really understand quite until my— and did not really understand quite until my daughters _ and did not really understand quite until my daughters got _ and did not really understand quite until my daughters got to - and did not really understand quite until my daughters got to that - and did not really understand quitei until my daughters got to that point how n1uch— until my daughters got to that point how much it — until my daughters got to that point how much it was _ until my daughters got to that point how much it was tracked. _ until my daughters got to that point how much it was tracked. 0f- until my daughters got to that point how much it was tracked. 0f course| how much it was tracked. of course good _ how much it was tracked. of course good schools — how much it was tracked. of course good schools are _ how much it was tracked. of course good schools are going _ how much it was tracked. of course good schools are going to - how much it was tracked. of course good schools are going to retest. how much it was tracked. 0f course| good schools are going to retest and understand — good schools are going to retest and understand that _ good schools are going to retest and understand that that _ good schools are going to retest and understand that that is _ understand that that is dysfunctional, - understand that that is dysfunctional, but- understand that that is dysfunctional, but not| understand that that is . dysfunctional, but not all understand that that is _ dysfunctional, but not all schools do that _ dysfunctional, but not all schools do that unfortunately, _ dysfunctional, but not all schools do that unfortunately, lots - dysfunctional, but not all schools do that unfortunately, lots of- dysfunctional, but not all schools do that unfortunately, lots of ouri do that unfortunately, lots of our chitdren— do that unfortunately, lots of our children are _ do that unfortunately, lots of our children are at _ do that unfortunately, lots of our children are at schools _ do that unfortunately, lots of our children are at schools where - do that unfortunately, lots of ouri children are at schools where they are going — children are at schools where they are going to— children are at schools where they are going to tte— children are at schools where they are going to be tracked _ children are at schools where they are going to be tracked all- children are at schools where they are going to be tracked all the - children are at schools where they| are going to be tracked all the way through _ are going to be tracked all the way through let— are going to be tracked all the way throu~h. . i. are going to be tracked all the way throu~h. . ,, ,., are going to be tracked all the way throu~h. . i. ,., , through. let me read you some texts. good morning. — through. let me read you some texts. good morning, yesterday _ through. let me read you some texts. good morning, yesterday my - through. let me read you some texts. good morning, yesterday my son - through. let me read you some texts. good morning, yesterday my son said | good morning, yesterday my son said his test had discussed pressure in exams and felt more pressure from

year six school teachers than they did during gcses. they are lower sixth form now. my son was told he is not going to achieve at seniors, he got nine a star is, but still has anxious moments that stem from the primary pressure. that is from anne louise. thank you to everyone sending text this morning. that is extraordinary. still remembering that imprint of the sats. this one, anonymous. sending thoughts and best wishes to kate, her lad in the family, heartbreaking to hear her situation, their situation. we have been through the same and sincerely empathise. keep doing what you're doing, kate. he sounds like a lucky lad to have his family's love. that is a nice text to get, kate, isn't it? , ., �* , is a nice text to get, kate, isn't it? , ., a ., , is a nice text to get, kate, isn't it? , y ., it? yes, that's lovely. i need to robabl it? yes, that's lovely. i need to probably take _ it? yes, that's lovely. i need to probably take a _ it? yes, that's lovely. i need to probably take a breath - it? yes, that's lovely. i need to probably take a breath now - it? yes, that's lovely. i need to probably take a breath now but| it? yes, that's lovely. i need to | probably take a breath now but i don't think the government, the

school, anybody outside the family home really understands the implications are knock—on effects of these exams at all. implications are knock-on effects of these exams at all.— these exams at all. that's what we are discussing _ these exams at all. that's what we are discussing this _ these exams at all. that's what we are discussing this morning, - these exams at all. that's what we are discussing this morning, thank| are discussing this morning, thank you everybody so much, are sats up to scratch? get in touch. i have the english question to give you, i will do it after the news and sport and tell you what is happening in the next hour of the programme. the rail minister — huw merriman — has urged the train drivers�* union aslef, and the rail workers' union, the rmt, to put the government's pay offer to its members, to avoid more strikes. rail drivers across 15 companies have walked out today. the uk economy grew a small

amount in the first three months of the year. the office for national statistics says it grew by 0.1% betweenjanuary and march. ukraine's president won't be allowed to address the millions of people watching eurovision tomorrow. organisers of the contest say political interventions are against the competition's rules. astronomers have discovered what they believe to be the largest explosion ever detected. a team led by researchers at southampton university say the blast was more than ten times brighter than any known supernova. katie smith has the sport. west ham boss david moyes admits they "have a big job to do next week." they do have the advantage tho after leg i of their europa conference league semifinal — they came from behind to beat dutch side az alkmaar 2—1 at the london stadium. west ham's last major trophy came in 1980. elsewhere — 26 players have been hit with fines and bans from golf�*s european tour for playing on events

run by the controversial breakaway circuit liv golf over the last year — they face fines ranging from 12.5 thousand pounds to 100k and possible suspensions from up to 8 tournaments. leicester tiger's wing chris ashton is now available for their premiership semifinal against sale this sunday after his red card from last week for a high tackle was overturned. he recently became the first player to reach 100 premiership tries — hes set to retire at the end of the season. and some sad news from the world of athletics — olympian and shot put bronze medallist at the cwg shaun pickering has died at the age of 61. he went on to become uk athletics' national event coach for heavy throws.

nicky: we'll keep talking about sat�*s for the next 20 minutes or so — then after 10: we are talking men's mental health with carl frampton. i'll be joined by two—time world champion boxer, carl frampton, to talk about men's mental health. it's an issue that's close to carl's heart and one that he's been exploring for the bbc�*s mental health season. he's made a documentary, which you can watch on iplayer now, it reveals how carl manages his own mental health...

the world of boxing, tyson fury very open about this recently but traditionally it has been an arena where you're meant to be strong and may be not reveal such things to people, but he talks about how he has struggled, he has been talking to experts and young men from all walks of life, so we'll be discussing lots of the issues and we really want to hear from you on this. it is so important to open up. i had a huge weight lifted when i spoke about my bipolar type two and depression over the years. that is out there. i'm sure carl feels the same way. it is great to have a voice and to be able to connect them to be able to be open about it, and hopefully help others, and he is doing that any big way. he is going to be here, and as ever, that's what it is all about, join us to talk about that. that's coming up at ten

o'clock. our sites up to scratch? another text, my daughterjust done her sats, she is ok. i think it is useful to know that you don't know it all. ain't that the truth, but thatis it all. ain't that the truth, but that is an interesting perspective there. and another, i'm a secondary teacher, believe me, sats are not fit for purpose. after the timely results to match a child's ability when they get to key stage three, from letty in sheffield. another one, just yesterday my son said his classmates agreed they felt more pressure in year six from the school and teachers than they felt during

their gcses. the group are lower six for now, my son was told he was not going to achieve at seniors. i think i did that one air thereon, but it's good to do it again because stop he got nine a stars. i thought it was familiar as i read on my tx machine. we have some collars as well. some really fascinating comments coming in. good morning. good morning. pressure for you, pressure for your son, tell me morewell, my son this week has been complaining of tummy pains, and this is all due to the pressure of sats. ye pains, and this is all due to the pressure of sats.— pains, and this is all due to the pressure of sats. ye en'oyed school, it is normally — pressure of sats. ye en'oyed school, it is normally very _ pressure of sats. ye enjoyed school, it is normally very happy _ pressure of sats. ye enjoyed school, it is normally very happy to _ pressure of sats. ye enjoyed school, it is normally very happy to go - pressure of sats. ye enjoyed school, it is normally very happy to go to - it is normally very happy to go to school with this week it has been a nightmare. i think of the sats are purely for the benefit of school

ratings, they do not benefit the children, and they are impacting on their mental health. in what way? how does that manifest itself? in the evenings, i can tell, the way he is, it is different this week. he has been worrying, he has been stressed, and i don't believe that primary school children should be put through this. i do not think it benefits them in any way. my 13—year—old son did not have to do sats because of covid, and he has gone up to secondary school, has been fine, they assess them when they at secondary school in a classroom environment without the pressure of exams.— pressure of exams. emily in worthing. — pressure of exams. emily in worthing, what _ pressure of exams. emily in worthing, what would - pressure of exams. emily in worthing, what would you l pressure of exams. emily in . worthing, what would you say? pressure of exams. emily in - worthing, what would you say? i wanted to give a positive spin to sats— wanted to give a positive spin to sats if— wanted to give a positive spin to sats if that's ok. but wanted to give a positive spin to sats if that's ok.— sats if that's ok. but do you understand _ sats if that's ok. but do you understand what _ sats if that's ok. but do you understand what is _ sats if that's ok. but do you understand what is being -

sats if that's ok. but do you i understand what is being said? sats if that's ok. but do you - understand what is being said? do you get it? i understand what is being said? do ou aet it? , . you get it? i understand, i get it, i have a you get it? i understand, i get it, i have a son _ you get it? i understand, i get it, i have a son doing _ you get it? i understand, i get it, i have a son doing it _ you get it? i understand, i get it, i have a son doing it now, - you get it? i understand, i get it, i have a son doing it now, an - i have a son doing it now, an 11-year-old _ i have a son doing it now, an 11—year—old boy, but i think it is pretty— 11—year—old boy, but i think it is pretty parents and the teachers, everyone — pretty parents and the teachers, everyone needs to be relaxed about it, i everyone needs to be relaxed about it. i can _ everyone needs to be relaxed about it, i can believe in qualities over qualification and just try not to worry— qualification and just try not to worry about it, i know it is hard, and _ worry about it, i know it is hard, and there. — worry about it, i know it is hard, and there. i_ worry about it, i know it is hard, and there, i have two boys, but he put and there, i have two boys, but he but less _ and there, i have two boys, but he put less pressure on them, there's other— put less pressure on them, there's other options, they can set up the wrong _ other options, they can set up the wrong business, they can be an entrepreneur, you don't need sats, is not _ entrepreneur, you don't need sats, is not the _ entrepreneur, you don't need sats, is not the end of the world. but i know— is not the end of the world. but i know some — is not the end of the world. but i know some people think it may be but i know some people think it may be but i believe _ know some people think it may be but i believe it— know some people think it may be but ibetieve it is— know some people think it may be but i believe it is not. do know some people think it may be but i believe it is not.— i believe it is not. do you think sometimes _ i believe it is not. do you think sometimes they _ i believe it is not. do you think sometimes they get _ i believe it is not. do you think sometimes they get that - i believe it is not. do you think sometimes they get that vibe l i believe it is not. do you think - sometimes they get that vibe from the school though?— sometimes they get that vibe from the school though? potentially they ma do, it the school though? potentially they may do. it may _ the school though? potentially they may do. it may be _ the school though? potentially they may do, it may be the _ the school though? potentially they may do, it may be the skill, - the school though? potentially they may do, it may be the skill, it - the school though? potentially they may do, it may be the skill, it may| may do, it may be the skill, it may be parents. — may do, it may be the skill, it may be parents, may be outside influences. it's about thinking that does not _ influences. it's about thinking that does not matter and that you can do anything _ does not matter and that you can do anything you want to do, no matter what _ anything you want to do, no matter what i_ anything you want to do, no matter what... u, , , anything you want to do, no matter what... , , . anything you want to do, no matter what... u, , , . . what... i completely agree with what that lady are — what... i completely agree with what that lady are saying _ what... i completely agree with what that lady are saying and _ what. .. i completely agree with what that lady are saying and i _ what... i completely agree with what that lady are saying and i can - that lady are saying and i can assure you i don't put the pressure on my son, with both my sons i say

all you can do it is your best and i am happy with that. mummy and daddy are happy as long as you do your best, i'm not a parent that puts pressure on them, so maybe the pressure on them, so maybe the pressure is coming from the school, i don't know. but it is not a nice thing to see when you have your 11—year—old son complaining of tummy pains and it is purely due to the sats. i am pains and it is purely due to the sats. lam not pains and it is purely due to the sats. i am not happy about them at all and i know a lot of people are not. and another thing is, when the children to get the results, the one that have not done so well are going into secondary school thinking they are not very good, because the children all talk to each other what score did you get? it isjust children all talk to each other what score did you get? it is just not... they are not fit for purpose. i they are not fit for purpose. i would agree, i think it depends on how parents— would agree, i think it depends on how parents and _ would agree, i think it depends on how parents and teachers - would agree, i think it depends on how parents and teachers are, - would agree, i think it depends on how parents and teachers are, if l would agree, i think it depends on . how parents and teachers are, if you are more _ how parents and teachers are, if you are more laid—back— how parents and teachers are, if you are more laid—back about _ how parents and teachers are, if you are more laid—back about testing, i are more laid—back about testing, you have — are more laid—back about testing, you have tests— are more laid—back about testing, you have tests when _ are more laid—back about testing, you have tests when you - are more laid—back about testing, you have tests when you get - are more laid—back about testing,

you have tests when you get high| you have tests when you get high school _ you have tests when you get high school all — you have tests when you get high school all the _ you have tests when you get high school all the time, _ you have tests when you get high school all the time, gcses, - you have tests when you get high schoolallthe time, gcses, howl you have tests when you get high i school all the time, gcses, how do you prepare — school all the time, gcses, how do you prepare children _ school all the time, gcses, how do you prepare children for— school all the time, gcses, how do you prepare children for it - school all the time, gcses, how do you prepare children for it if- school all the time, gcses, how do you prepare children for it if they . you prepare children for it if they don't _ you prepare children for it if they don't have — you prepare children for it if they don't have tests _ you prepare children for it if they don't have tests in _ you prepare children for it if they don't have tests in primary- you prepare children for it if they| don't have tests in primary school reis don't have tests in primary school rei , . ., , , don't have tests in primary school rei , , , ., don't have tests in primary school rei , , , . ., don't have tests in primary school rei , , ., . , reis because they are more mentally reared at reis because they are more mentally prepared at that _ reis because they are more mentally prepared at that age. _ reis because they are more mentally prepared at that age. these - reis because they are more mentally prepared at that age. these are - prepared at that age. these are primary schoolchildren. mr; prepared at that age. these are primary schoolchildren. my children did 11 lus primary schoolchildren. my children did 11 plus at _ primary schoolchildren. my children did 11 plus at the _ primary schoolchildren. my children did 11 plus at the start _ primary schoolchildren. my children did 11 plus at the start of— primary schoolchildren. my children did 11 plus at the start of year - primary schoolchildren. my children did 11 plus at the start of year six i did 11 plus at the start of year six and it— did 11 plus at the start of year six and it is— did 11 plus at the start of year six and it is up— did 11 plus at the start of year six and it is up to— did 11 plus at the start of year six and it is up to the _ did 11 plus at the start of year six and it is up to the parents - did 11 plus at the start of year six and it is up to the parents as- did 11 plus at the start of year six| and it is up to the parents as well 'ust and it is up to the parents as well just to _ and it is up to the parents as well just to keep— and it is up to the parents as well just to keep the _ and it is up to the parents as well just to keep the kids _ and it is up to the parents as well just to keep the kids relax - and it is up to the parents as well just to keep the kids relax when i and it is up to the parents as well| just to keep the kids relax when it comes— just to keep the kids relax when it comes to — just to keep the kids relax when it comes to exams. _ just to keep the kids relax when it comes to exams.— just to keep the kids relax when it comes to exams. well, i don't put any pressure _ comes to exams. well, i don't put any pressure on — comes to exams. well, i don't put any pressure on my _ comes to exams. well, i don't put any pressure on my son _ comes to exams. well, i don't put any pressure on my son and - comes to exams. well, i don't put any pressure on my son and i - comes to exams. well, i don't put any pressure on my son and i am | comes to exams. well, i don't put i any pressure on my son and i am not the only one, there are plenty of other parents out there, you have 11—year—old children that are very stressed about these sats... what is the purpose? what is the purpose? it the purpose? what is the purpose? it is a test that has been going since 1988. _ is a test that has been going since 1988. i_ is a test that has been going since 1988. i did — is a test that has been going since 1988, i did sats— is a test that has been going since 1988, i did sats and _ is a test that has been going since 1988, i did sats and i— is a test that has been going since 1988, i did sats and l was- is a test that has been going since 1988, | did sats and l was not- 1988, i did sats and i was not nrentally— 1988, i did sats and i was not mentally scarred _ 1988, i did sats and i was not mentally scarred from - 1988, i did sats and i was not mentally scarred from them, i 1988, i did sats and l was not. mentally scarred from them, why 1988, i did sats and l was not- mentally scarred from them, why is it suddenly— mentally scarred from them, why is it suddenly in — mentally scarred from them, why is it suddenly in the _ mentally scarred from them, why is it suddenly in the last _ mentally scarred from them, why is it suddenly in the last five - mentally scarred from them, why is it suddenly in the last five years? . it suddenly in the last five years? it is it suddenly in the last five years? it is not _ it suddenly in the last five years? it is not suddenly, _ it suddenly in the last five years? it is not suddenly, this _ it suddenly in the last five years? it is not suddenly, this has - it suddenly in the last five years? it is not suddenly, this has beeni it is not suddenly, this has been going on for years. a lot of teachers don't like sats, plenty don't agree with them as well. did

ou do don't agree with them as well. did you do the sats? no, _ don't agree with them as well. did you do the sats? no, i _ don't agree with them as well. did you do the sats? no, i didn't, - don't agree with them as well. did you do the sats? no, i didn't, i'm too old. you do the sats? no, i didn't, i'm too old- l'm _ you do the sats? no, i didn't, i'm too old. i'm only— you do the sats? no, i didn't, i'm too old. i'm only 30, _ you do the sats? no, i didn't, i'm too old. i'm only 30, i— you do the sats? no, i didn't, i'm too old. i'm only 30, i done - you do the sats? no, i didn't, i'mj too old. i'm only 30, i done them, you do the sats? no, i didn't, i'm. too old. i'm only 30, i done them, i found them — too old. i'm only 30, i done them, i found them quite _ too old. i'm only 30, i done them, i found them quite fun, _ too old. i'm only 30, i done them, i found them quite fun, i _ too old. i'm only 30, i done them, i found them quite fun, i don't - too old. i'm only 30, i done them, i found them quite fun, i don't know| found them quite fun, i don't know why _ found them quite fun, i don't know why my— found them quite fun, i don't know why. my parents _ found them quite fun, i don't know why. my parents never— found them quite fun, i don't know why. my parents never pushed - found them quite fun, i don't know why. my parents never pushed me| why. my parents never pushed me academically— why. my parents never pushed me academically otherwise, _ why. my parents never pushed me academically otherwise, so - why. my parents never pushed me academically otherwise, so i... . academically otherwise, so i... elder-nrack_ academically otherwise, so i... elder—mack that's— academically otherwise, so i... elder—mack that's great, - academically otherwise, so i... elder—mack that's great, that's marvellous, _ elder—mack that's great, that's marvellous, but— elder—mack that's great, that's marvellous, but there - elder—mack that's great, that's marvellous, but there are - elder—mack that's great, that'sl marvellous, but there are many elder—mack that's great, that's - marvellous, but there are many out there _ marvellous, but there are many out there that _ marvellous, but there are many out there that this — marvellous, but there are many out there that this is _ marvellous, but there are many out there that this is putting _ marvellous, but there are many out there that this is putting too - marvellous, but there are many out there that this is putting too much. there that this is putting too much pressure~~~ — there that this is putting too much pressure- - -— pressure... too much pressure on children. and _ pressure... too much pressure on children. and it _ pressure... too much pressure on children. and it is _ pressure... too much pressure on children. and it is the _ pressure... too much pressure on children. and it is the opinion - pressure... too much pressure on children. and it is the opinion of. children. and it is the opinion of many other teachers as well. surely the teachers in the primary school know where these children are, know what level they are at, that information can be passed on. hot information can be passed on. not necessarily- _ information can be passed on. not necessarily. my son done 11 plus and -ot necessarily. my son done 11 plus and got into— necessarily. my son done 11 plus and got into grammar— necessarily. my son done 11 plus and got into grammar school— necessarily. my son done 11 plus and got into grammar school and - necessarily. my son done 11 plus and got into grammar school and before| got into grammar school and before the sats _ got into grammar school and before the sats assessments _ got into grammar school and before the sats assessments they - got into grammar school and before the sats assessments they said - got into grammar school and before the sats assessments they said he| the sats assessments they said he was underachieving _ the sats assessments they said he was underachieving but _ the sats assessments they said he was underachieving but he - the sats assessments they said he was underachieving but he wasn't,| was underachieving but he wasn't, the teacher— was underachieving but he wasn't, the teacher said _ was underachieving but he wasn't, the teacher said that _ was underachieving but he wasn't, the teacher said that but - was underachieving but he wasn't, the teacher said that but he - was underachieving but he wasn't, i the teacher said that but he missed it because — the teacher said that but he missed it because of— the teacher said that but he missed it because of covid _ the teacher said that but he missed it because of covid and _ the teacher said that but he missed it because of covid and the - the teacher said that but he missed it because of covid and the teacher| it because of covid and the teacher said he _ it because of covid and the teacher said he was— it because of covid and the teacher said he was always _ it because of covid and the teacher said he was always underachieving| it because of covid and the teacher. said he was always underachieving at mass _ said he was always underachieving at mass but _ said he was always underachieving at mass but that— said he was always underachieving at mass but that was _ said he was always underachieving at mass but that was not _ said he was always underachieving at mass but that was not the _ said he was always underachieving at mass but that was not the case - mass but that was not the case because — mass but that was not the case because he _ mass but that was not the case because he passed _ mass but that was not the case because he passed his- mass but that was not the case because he passed his 11 - mass but that was not the case because he passed his 11 plus l mass but that was not the case i because he passed his 11 plus and mass but that was not the case - because he passed his 11 plus and is doing _ because he passed his 11 plus and is doing really— because he passed his 11 plus and is doing really well— because he passed his 11 plus and is doing really well at _ because he passed his 11 plus and is doing really well at high _ because he passed his 11 plus and is doing really well at high school, - because he passed his 11 plus and is doing really well at high school, sol doing really well at high school, so

the teachers — doing really well at high school, so the teachers are _ doing really well at high school, so the teachers are not _ doing really well at high school, so the teachers are not always - doing really well at high school, so the teachers are not always right. i the teachers are not always right. tests _ the teachers are not always right. tests show — the teachers are not always right. tests show that _ the teachers are not always right. tests show that teachers - the teachers are not always right. tests show that teachers are - the teachers are not always right. tests show that teachers are not| tests show that teachers are not always _ tests show that teachers are not always right _ tests show that teachers are not always right because _ tests show that teachers are not always right because he - tests show that teachers are not always right because he done . tests show that teachers are not i always right because he done really well enough — always right because he done really well enough to _ always right because he done really well enough to get _ always right because he done really well enough to get into _ always right because he done really well enough to get into grammar. well enough to get into grammar school _ well enough to get into grammar school. �* ., �* ~' well enough to get into grammar school. �* ., �* ,, . , , school. but i don't think a simple test like that _ school. but i don't think a simple test like that can _ school. but i don't think a simple test like that can tell— school. but i don't think a simple test like that can tell the - school. but i don't think a simple | test like that can tell the teachers everything about a child. i don't believe in that. paine—mack is not everything, just the core subjects. and 11 plus is voluntary. i everything, just the core sub'ects. and 11 plus is voluntaryh and 11 plus is voluntary. i want my child to do — and 11 plus is voluntary. i want my child to do well _ and 11 plus is voluntary. i want my child to do well academically, - and 11 plus is voluntary. i want my child to do well academically, so l and 11 plus is voluntary. i want my child to do well academically, so i | child to do well academically, so i have _ child to do well academically, so i have always — child to do well academically, so i have always said, _ child to do well academically, so i have always said, and _ child to do well academically, so i have always said, and i— child to do well academically, so i have always said, and i can - child to do well academically, so i | have always said, and i can always see that _ have always said, and i can always see that he — have always said, and i can always see that he is _ have always said, and i can always see that he is really— have always said, and i can always see that he is really good - have always said, and i can always see that he is really good englishl see that he is really good english and maths, — see that he is really good english and maths, but _ see that he is really good english and maths, but teacher- see that he is really good english and maths, but teacher said - see that he is really good english and maths, but teacher said he l and maths, but teacher said he wasn't — and maths, but teacher said he wasn't an— and maths, but teacher said he wasn't an tests _ and maths, but teacher said he wasn't an tests prove _ and maths, but teacher said he wasn't an tests prove that - and maths, but teacher said he wasn't an tests prove that he . and maths, but teacher said he . wasn't an tests prove that he was because — wasn't an tests prove that he was because he — wasn't an tests prove that he was because he is— wasn't an tests prove that he was because he is soaring _ wasn't an tests prove that he was because he is soaring at - wasn't an tests prove that he was| because he is soaring at grammar school— because he is soaring at grammar school currently _ because he is soaring at grammar school currently my _ because he is soaring at grammar school currently my daughter - because he is soaring at grammar school currently my daughterjust| school currently my daughter just -ot school currently my daughter just got into _ school currently my daughterjust got into grammar— school currently my daughterjust got into grammar school - school currently my daughterjust got into grammar school and - school currently my daughterjust got into grammar school and is l school currently my daughterjust . got into grammar school and is now doing _ got into grammar school and is now doing her— got into grammar school and is now doing her sats _ got into grammar school and is now doing her sats. that _ got into grammar school and is now doing her sats. that is _ got into grammar school and is now doing her sats. that is marvellousi doing her sats. that is marvellous and an— doing her sats. that is marvellous and an individual— doing her sats. that is marvellous and an individual case, _ doing her sats. that is marvellous and an individual case, but- doing her sats. that is marvellous and an individual case, but there l and an individual case, but there are an _ and an individual case, but there are an awful— and an individual case, but there are an awful lot _ and an individual case, but there are an awful lot of _ and an individual case, but there are an awful lot of people - and an individual case, but there are an awful lot of people out. and an individual case, but there i are an awful lot of people out there like me _ are an awful lot of people out there like me that — are an awful lot of people out there like me that do _ are an awful lot of people out there like me that do not _ are an awful lot of people out there like me that do not agree _ are an awful lot of people out there like me that do not agree with i are an awful lot of people out there i like me that do not agree with sats. we are _ like me that do not agree with sats. we are hearing — like me that do not agree with sats. we are hearing it— like me that do not agree with sats. we are hearing it this _ like me that do not agree with sats. we are hearing it this morning i like me that do not agree with sats. we are hearing it this morning very| we are hearing it this morning very much. that point of view. it is in

the text, people communicating with us, but there is also people such as katie who have a different perspective on it. alison ali may be able to help us out. morning, alison, we've been hearing a lot this morning that meant we had katie early on, a very moving call, katie and crosby talking about her son and we were just listening to our caller from new forest, her little boy going through hell this week with tummy pains and stress. it has been awful for a lot of mums and dads seeing their kids go through the sort of stuff. but, alison, you specialise in protecting children from the mental impact of taking

stats. surely the best protection would be not taking stats? i run would be not taking stats? i run strate: would be not taking stats? i run strategy and — would be not taking stats? i r '1 strategy and communications would be not taking stats? i l�*u strategy and communications for would be not taking stats? i i “i strategy and communications for a camping, more than a score and we've been calling for the scrapping of sats for the last several years to stop just to come back and wanted caller earlier, but she did the test and they were nothing... in 2016, the then education secretary michael gove upped the level by which you have to pass, so we have ten or 11—year—olds learning what's 12, have to pass, so we have ten or 11—year—olds learning what's12, 13, 14—year—olds were learning, in order to be able to pass there is sats, whether of actual equations are affronted are adverbial, for what it is worth, at a hundred paces, so to turn these things into testable entities, which are only used to judge schools, they have nothing to do with children's learning or with helping children to progress, we have this ridiculous situation where

ten and 11 euros children are setting tests for four under gcse conditions and the stress that that puts on them is in many cases intolerable.— puts on them is in many cases | intolerable._ yeah, puts on them is in many cases i intolerable._ yeah, so intolerable. intolerable? yeah, so we ran research _ intolerable. intolerable? yeah, so we ran research last _ intolerable. intolerable? yeah, so we ran research last year, - intolerable. intolerable? yeah, so we ran research last year, sats i intolerable. intolerable? yeah, soj we ran research last year, sats as you know were cancelled during covid for two years in the skies did not fall in, schools continue to function perfectly well, but last year we did research on nearly 2000 children in year six, the percentage of year six children that were worried about sitting there sats was at 60%, one in ten told us they were not sleeping because of sats and one third of all primary head teachers in the country were contacted by parents worried about... what in the country were contacted by parents worried about... what is the source of that _ parents worried about... what is the source of that anxiety? _ parents worried about... what is the source of that anxiety? what - parents worried about... what is the source of that anxiety? what is i parents worried about... what is the source of that anxiety? what is the i

source of that anxiety? what is the wellspring? where are coming from? when it comes from is that the school is judged, when it comes from is that the school isjudged, and 0fsted can be called in, head teachers can lose theirjobs if they get per sats results, so it's pearly an accountability measure for schools, but if you are a school for example operating in a deprived area, which there are many, where children don't have books at home, may be english is not the first language, then in order to get results that are not going to call in 0fsted or put you into required improvement or even inadequate as a school, you need to really cram those children for the tests and impress upon them how important they are. this is what happens in schools all over the country. not because the head teachers and teachers want it that way, but because of very misguided government policy.— government policy. good morning, rebecca. government policy. good morning, rebecca- how _ government policy. good morning, rebecca. how are _ government policy. good morning, rebecca. how are you? _ government policy. good morning, rebecca. how are you? can - government policy. good morning, rebecca. how are you? can you . government policy. good morning, i rebecca. how are you? can you help

me with something here that comes from sarah, a policy for the national association of head teachers, she said this particular paper that has caused such consternation, she said that she is very concerned and members have told us the choice of texts was not accessible for the wide range of experiences and backgrounds children have, and the difficulty was beyond previous tests, leaving the children upset and with staff struggling to understand the questions as well. so what does that mean? choice of texts not accessible for a wide range of experiences and backgrounds? what does that mean? 50 experiences and backgrounds? what does that mean?— does that mean? so interesting, really interesting _ does that mean? so interesting, really interesting to _ does that mean? so interesting, really interesting to hear- does that mean? so interesting, l really interesting to hear everyone talk about — really interesting to hear everyone talk about this from different perspectives, and thank you to alison— perspectives, and thank you to alison specifically for the work vou're — alison specifically for the work you're doing, just really interesting. in the current reading paper, _ interesting. in the current reading paper, there are three tests, and the way— paper, there are three tests, and the way the paper is designed is that they— the way the paper is designed is that they get progressively harder, and just— that they get progressively harder, and just to pick up on something that somebody said previously about

1988. _ that somebody said previously about 1988, 2016, actually before 2016 the higher— 1988, 2016, actually before 2016 the higher level questions were separated off into separate paper that some people took which i'm happy— that some people took which i'm happy to— that some people took which i'm happy to talk about later, a really interesting thing to pick up on. what _ interesting thing to pick up on. what this— interesting thing to pick up on. what this comment is about the accessibility is, if you like, and i can't _ accessibility is, if you like, and i can't talk— accessibility is, if you like, and i can't talk about what specifically is in the — can't talk about what specifically is in the paper because it's embargoed in some children will have been off— embargoed in some children will have been off sick and have to take it, so we _ been off sick and have to take it, so we mustn't talk about what is in these _ so we mustn't talk about what is in these papers, specifically, but if for example, and i'm going to use my own gcse _ for example, and i'm going to use my own gcse experience when i was at school, _ own gcse experience when i was at school, there was a question about whether— school, there was a question about whether we — school, there was a question about whether we should persuade or something like that about whether we should _ something like that about whether we should go— something like that about whether we should go on a ski trip, so if you had been — should go on a ski trip, so if you had been on _ should go on a ski trip, so if you had been on skiing trips and you understand about skiing, you might have read _ understand about skiing, you might have read about skiing, you might have _ have read about skiing, you might have gone — have read about skiing, you might have gone skiing, you were therefore engaging _ have gone skiing, you were therefore engaging with something, comedy language and something on the concept — language and something on the concept of something that is may be part of— concept of something that is may be part of your— concept of something that is may be part of your life. there are chitdren— part of your life. there are children that will not have been

skiing — children that will not have been skiing it — children that will not have been skiing. it may have been related to income. _ skiing. it may have been related to income, deprivation or it mightjust be related — income, deprivation or it mightjust be related to culture, and so somebody that may stay in a rural environment, and it got to be carefut— environment, and it got to be careful what i say because i know what _ careful what i say because i know what is _ careful what i say because i know what is in — careful what i say because i know what is in the sats paper, but if youte _ what is in the sats paper, but if youte any— what is in the sats paper, but if you're any rural environment there is vocabulary well known to you and any a _ is vocabulary well known to you and any a more — is vocabulary well known to you and any a more urban environment, a different— any a more urban environment, a different set of experiences, but it's really— different set of experiences, but it's really very interesting to think— it's really very interesting to think about which children will feel comfortable with which hits of language. i rememberwhen i comfortable with which hits of language. i remember when i was talking, _ language. i remember when i was talking, when i was working in buckinghamshire, which is not relevant — buckinghamshire, which is not relevant to the specific bit of language, but a bit in the text that said ntatt— language, but a bit in the text that said mall and ratty, it was supper time _ said mall and ratty, it was supper time and — said mall and ratty, it was supper time and etc, the question was what time and etc, the question was what time of— time and etc, the question was what time of day— time and etc, the question was what time of day is this happening? and the child _ time of day is this happening? and the child looked at me blankly because — the child looked at me blankly because he had never used the word supben _ because he had never used the word supper. supper is not something that was to— supper. supper is not something that was to use _ supper. supper is not something that was to use within her language. we

all talk— was to use within her language. we all talk about as lunchtime dinner time _ all talk about as lunchtime dinner time or— all talk about as lunchtime dinner time or is— all talk about as lunchtime dinner time or is it — all talk about as lunchtime dinner time or is it lunchtime? there are subtle _ time or is it lunchtime? there are subtle nuances of language that will stress _ subtle nuances of language that will stress children out because they will stare — stress children out because they will stare at a wide angle ijust don't _ will stare at a wide angle ijust don't know what that means and it is linked _ don't know what that means and it is linked to— don't know what that means and it is linked to their childhood. that don't know what that means and it is linked to their childhood.— linked to their childhood. that is fascinating _ linked to their childhood. that is fascinating to _ linked to their childhood. that is fascinating to stop _ linked to their childhood. that is fascinating to stop that - linked to their childhood. that is fascinating to stop that you - linked to their childhood. that is fascinating to stop that you see | linked to their childhood. that is i fascinating to stop that you see key contribution, very enlightening. here is the question, ijust want to give that out and then speak to claire and other callers. that's not to say look at this it's easy, look at this is difficult, it's interesting that we all see a question, an english question, and i think if you're watching on the telly, i think it will come up on screen... everyone knows what an elephant is

but it's not particularly relevant, just a thing and putting thee, in the right place. i think i have got it. anyway, moving on, have you got it? claire in stockton—on—tees, welcome to the nation cosmic phone in. your experience? my welcome to the nation cosmic phone in. your experience?— in. your experience? my experience with my daughter. _ in. your experience? my experience with my daughter, she _ in. your experience? my experience with my daughter, she is _ in. your experience? my experience with my daughter, she is dyslexic. with my daughter, she is dyslexic but has this calculator, a maths form of being dyslexic, she has been any special group of children, to do her mass work, only seven of them, and they have special work, she is 11 but has the mass age of eight initially behind it is not the most of the work in the saps. has had no

teaching and they have not been able to get her up to that level, and for the sites they just say, to get her up to that level, and for the sites theyjust say, they give them the same paper all the other children who have had the teaching and learning for the whole paper, but unfortunately, as a parent, i feel like i'm setting her up to fail, really, because she has no way of completing all the paperwork, because she has not had the learning or the teaching and her stage at mass is not at the stage you need to be able to do the sats, so for me, i did not even think they would do that to a child any special group, i thought they would give them a special paper and they would stay in their special group but unfortunately that is not the case. so she has been going to school having to do the work that she clearly can't do. i having to do the work that she clearly can't do.— having to do the work that she clearly can't do. i think baz would be brilliant _ clearly can't do. i think baz would be brilliant to _

clearly can't do. i think baz would be brilliant to comment _ clearly can't do. i think baz would be brilliant to comment on - clearly can't do. i think baz would be brilliant to comment on this, | be brilliant to comment on this, head of policy at the centre for education and youth. thanks for hanging on in there. did you hear that? j hanging on in there. did you hear that? “ hanging on in there. did you hear that? 4' ., ., , , that? i think the fundamental issue related to mental _ that? i think the fundamental issue related to mental health _ that? i think the fundamental issue related to mental health ear - that? i think the fundamental issue related to mental health ear really | related to mental health ear really needs— related to mental health ear really needs to _ related to mental health ear really needs to be drawn into focus, anything from a research perspective, the perspective i approach _ perspective, the perspective i approach this from, unfortunately there _ approach this from, unfortunately there is— approach this from, unfortunately there is no— approach this from, unfortunately there is no clear answer, there has been _ there is no clear answer, there has been some — there is no clear answer, there has been some research into the impact on young _ been some research into the impact on young people's mental health that participate in sats, and the general findings _ participate in sats, and the general findings there are that the impact sats have — findings there are that the impact sats have on young people's mental health— sats have on young people's mental health is— sats have on young people's mental health is pretty minimal if you compare — health is pretty minimal if you compare it to when young people don't _ compare it to when young people don't set — compare it to when young people don't set sats, so a lot of those studies — don't set sats, so a lot of those studies are _ don't set sats, so a lot of those studies are based on sats that were taken _ studies are based on sats that were taken before 2012 before a lot of the curriculum changes that have been _ the curriculum changes that have been seen — the curriculum changes that have been seen in recent years, that we know— been seen in recent years, that we know from — been seen in recent years, that we know from several accounts, from teachers. — know from several accounts, from teachers, head teachers, parents, become _ teachers, head teachers, parents, become a — teachers, head teachers, parents, become a lot more challenging. there is a mixed _ become a lot more challenging. there is a mixed evidence—based and how sats— is a mixed evidence—based and how sats impacts young peoplemental

heatth~ _ sats impacts young peoplemental health. did sats impacts young peoplemental health. , . health. did you see your daughter has dyscalculia? _ health. did you see your daughter has dyscalculia? yes. _ health. did you see your daughter has dyscalculia? yes. behind - health. did you see your daughter has dyscalculia? yes. behind in i health. did you see your daughter. has dyscalculia? yes. behind in mass were obviously _ has dyscalculia? jazz behind in mass were obviously reasons, anyone has dyscalculia? i9; behind in mass were obviously reasons, anyone that is dyslexic will know, behind in reading and so forth, but asked to do the same test as everyone else, comes back to the whole blunt instrument and educational insensitivity of it all. absolutely. i think one _ insensitivity of it all. absolutely. i think one thing _ insensitivity of it all. absolutely. i think one thing that _ insensitivity of it all. absolutely. i think one thing that is - insensitivity of it all. absolutely. l i think one thing that is important here is— i think one thing that is important here is that young people who do have _ here is that young people who do have special educational needs and disabilities, including dyscalculia, often _ disabilities, including dyscalculia, often do — disabilities, including dyscalculia, often do struggle with their mental health— often do struggle with their mental health because the vines grow more challenging, and sats can by consequence have a greater impact on their mental— consequence have a greater impact on their mental health and it would for others _ their mental health and it would for others the — their mental health and it would for others. the thing that that challenge draws the shop into focus is the _ challenge draws the shop into focus is the question of what sats are for? _ is the question of what sats are for? to— is the question of what sats are for? to clearly or not to the benefit _ for? to clearly or not to the benefit of _ for? to clearly or not to the benefit of that child because they are being — benefit of that child because they are being used as a punishment, so the purpose — are being used as a punishment, so the purpose of sats here? our understanding from the research and

policy _ understanding from the research and policy world is for holding skills to account in being able to monitor their effectiveness and keep the results — their effectiveness and keep the results they produce, while we often say that _ results they produce, while we often say that benefit schools, actually that's _ say that benefit schools, actually that's not — say that benefit schools, actually that's not to the benefit of skills, that's not to the benefit of skills, that is— that's not to the benefit of skills, that is to — that's not to the benefit of skills, that is to the benefit of the government, because the government can then _ government, because the government can then say, look, this year 90% of children— can then say, look, this year 90% of children in— can then say, look, this year 90% of children in this area are 90% of children— children in this area are 90% of children in— children in this area are 90% of children in the country achieved the expected _ children in the country achieved the expected standard in reading and maths, _ expected standard in reading and maths, therefore we are doing a really— maths, therefore we are doing a really good job of running our education system, therefore you should _ education system, therefore you should vote for us at the next general— should vote for us at the next general election if that is one of the key— general election if that is one of the key interest. so through the lens the key interest. so through the tens of— the key interest. so through the lens of accountability, it is to the benefit _ lens of accountability, it is to the benefit of — lens of accountability, it is to the benefit of the government. that is our lens benefit of the government. that is your lens but _ benefit of the government. that is your lens but there _ benefit of the government. that is your lens but there will— benefit of the government. that is your lens but there will be - benefit of the government. that is your lens but there will be othersl your lens but there will be others as well. tony, what do you think? i have listened... i have listened with— have listened... i have listened with a — have listened... i have listened with a great— have listened... i have listened with a great deal— have listened... i have listened with a great deal of— have listened... i have listened with a great deal of interest - have listened... i have listened with a great deal of interest to| have listened... i have listened . with a great deal of interest to all that is— with a great deal of interest to all that is going _ with a great deal of interest to all that is going on _ with a great deal of interest to all that is going on and _ with a great deal of interest to all that is going on and as— with a great deal of interest to all that is going on and as far- with a great deal of interest to all that is going on and as far as- with a great deal of interest to all that is going on and as far as i- with a great deal of interest to all| that is going on and as far as i am concerned. — that is going on and as far as i am concerned. it— that is going on and as far as i am concerned, it is— that is going on and as far as i am concerned, it is about _ that is going on and as far as i am concerned, it is about time - that is going on and as far as i am concerned, it is about time we - concerned, it is about time we started — concerned, it is about time we started to _ concerned, it is about time we started to accept _ concerned, it is about time we started to accept the - concerned, it is about time we started to accept the fact - concerned, it is about time we started to accept the fact that| started to accept the fact that people — started to accept the fact that people need _ started to accept the fact that people need to _ started to accept the fact that people need to be _ started to accept the fact that people need to be checked, l started to accept the fact that i people need to be checked, they started to accept the fact that - people need to be checked, they need to be inspected, — people need to be checked, they need to be inspected, they— people need to be checked, they need to be inspected, they need _

people need to be checked, they need to be inspected, they need to - people need to be checked, they need to be inspected, they need to have - to be inspected, they need to have all this— to be inspected, they need to have all this time, — to be inspected, they need to have all this time, and _ to be inspected, they need to have all this time, and why _ to be inspected, they need to have all this time, and why are - to be inspected, they need to have all this time, and why are we - to be inspected, they need to have| all this time, and why are we trying to hide _ all this time, and why are we trying to hide behind _ all this time, and why are we trying to hide behind the _ all this time, and why are we trying to hide behind the problems - all this time, and why are we trying to hide behind the problems of- to hide behind the problems of mental— to hide behind the problems of mental health— to hide behind the problems of mental health and _ to hide behind the problems of mental health and all- to hide behind the problems of mental health and all the - to hide behind the problems of| mental health and all the other nonsense — mental health and all the other nonsense that— mental health and all the other nonsense that is _ mental health and all the other nonsense that is going - mental health and all the other nonsense that is going on? - mental health and all the other . nonsense that is going on? when mental health and all the other - nonsense that is going on? when are you going _ nonsense that is going on? when are you going to— nonsense that is going on? when are you going to test _ nonsense that is going on? when are you going to test these _ nonsense that is going on? when are you going to test these children? - nonsense that is going on? when are you going to test these children? my| you going to test these children? my daughter's— you going to test these children? my daughter's son — you going to test these children? my daughter's son is _ you going to test these children? my daughter's son is having _ you going to test these children? my daughter's son is having his - you going to test these children? my daughter's son is having his last- daughter's son is having his last sat today— daughter's son is having his last sat today and _ daughter's son is having his last sat today and he _ daughter's son is having his last sat today and he hates - daughter's son is having his last sat today and he hates them i daughter's son is having his last. sat today and he hates them but daughter's son is having his last- sat today and he hates them but he has got _ sat today and he hates them but he has got through _ sat today and he hates them but he has got through them _ sat today and he hates them but he has got through them and _ sat today and he hates them but he has got through them and got - sat today and he hates them but he has got through them and got on - sat today and he hates them but he i has got through them and got on with it, has got through them and got on with it. so— has got through them and got on with it, so why— has got through them and got on with it. so why on — has got through them and got on with it, so why on earth _ has got through them and got on with it, so why on earth and _ has got through them and got on with it, so why on earth and when - has got through them and got on with it, so why on earth and when and - has got through them and got on with it, so why on earth and when and how are you _ it, so why on earth and when and how are you going — it, so why on earth and when and how are you going to — it, so why on earth and when and how are you going to put _ it, so why on earth and when and how are you going to put something - it, so why on earth and when and how are you going to put something else i are you going to put something else in place _ are you going to put something else in place of— are you going to put something else in place of them? _ are you going to put something else in place of them?— are you going to put something else in place of them? what do you mean b hidin: in place of them? what do you mean by hiding behind _ in place of them? what do you mean by hiding behind mental— in place of them? what do you mean by hiding behind mental health - in place of them? what do you mean by hiding behind mental health and l by hiding behind mental health and all the other? i by hiding behind mental health and all the other?— all the other? i was supposedly d slexic all the other? i was supposedly dyslexic and — all the other? i was supposedly dyslexic and ended _ all the other? i was supposedly dyslexic and ended up, - all the other? i was supposedly dyslexic and ended up, my - all the other? i was supposedly l dyslexic and ended up, my father said to _ dyslexic and ended up, my father said to me. — dyslexic and ended up, my father said to me. boy, _ dyslexic and ended up, my father said to me, boy, you _ dyslexic and ended up, my father said to me, boy, you need - dyslexic and ended up, my father said to me, boy, you need to - dyslexic and ended up, my father said to me, boy, you need to get| dyslexic and ended up, my father. said to me, boy, you need to get a 'ob said to me, boy, you need to get a job that _ said to me, boy, you need to get a job that does — said to me, boy, you need to get a job that does not _ said to me, boy, you need to get a job that does not need _ said to me, boy, you need to get a job that does not need reading - said to me, boy, you need to get a job that does not need reading and writing _ job that does not need reading and writing so— job that does not need reading and writing so i— job that does not need reading and writing so i became _ job that does not need reading and writing so i became a _ job that does not need reading and writing so i became a barber- job that does not need reading and writing so i became a barber and l job that does not need reading and writing so i became a barber and ii writing so i became a barber and i employed — writing so i became a barber and i employed five _ writing so i became a barber and i employed five people, _ writing so i became a barber and i employed five people, train- writing so i became a barber and i employed five people, train five l employed five people, train five people — employed five people, train five people and _ employed five people, train five people and made _ employed five people, train five people and made a _ employed five people, train five people and made a very- employed five people, train fivej people and made a very success employed five people, train five i people and made a very success of employed five people, train five - people and made a very success of it and 50 _ people and made a very success of it and 50 odd _ people and made a very success of it and 50 odd years— people and made a very success of it and 50 odd years i— people and made a very success of it and 50 odd years i worked _ people and made a very success of it and 50 odd years i worked as - people and made a very success of it and 50 odd years i worked as a - and 50 odd years i worked as a barber— and 50 odd years i worked as a barber and _ and 50 odd years i worked as a barber and i_ and 50 odd years i worked as a barberand i am— and 50 odd years i worked as a barber and i am 74 _ and 50 odd years i worked as a barber and i am 74 years- and 50 odd years i worked as a barber and i am 74 years of. and 50 odd years i worked as a | barber and i am 74 years of age and 50 odd years i worked as a - barber and i am 74 years of age and alli barber and i am 74 years of age and all t can— barber and i am 74 years of age and all t can say— barber and i am 74 years of age and all t can say is, _ barber and i am 74 years of age and all i can say is, it's _ barber and i am 74 years of age and all i can say is, it's about— barber and i am 74 years of age and all i can say is, it's about time - all i can say is, it's about time people — all i can say is, it's about time people accept _ all i can say is, it's about time people accept the _ all i can say is, it's about time people accept the fact - all i can say is, it's about time people accept the fact that. all i can say is, it's about timei people accept the fact that you all i can say is, it's about time - people accept the fact that you do have to _ people accept the fact that you do have to have — people accept the fact that you do have to have some _

people accept the fact that you do have to have some form - people accept the fact that you do have to have some form of - people accept the fact that you do have to have some form of test. l have to have some form of test. thank _ have to have some form of test. thank you _ have to have some form of test. thank you all— have to have some form of test. thank you. all views _ have to have some form of test. thank you. all views are - have to have some form of test. . thank you. all views are welcome. tony mentions mental health, we are not going to hide behind it for the next error. we are going to talk about men's mental health, we want your contribution. it isa it is a very real thing, let me assure tony and others. talking men's mental health with carl frampton. for the next hour — two—time world champion boxer, carl frampton, is with me to talk about men's mental health. as might you and others. it's an issue that's close to carl's heart and one that he's been exploring for the bbc�*s mental health season. he's made a documentary, which you can watch on iplayer now, it reveals how carl manages his own mental health. and he's been talking to experts and young men from all walks of life who have struggled

with their mental health. we'll be discussing lots of the issues, but i really want to hear from you — why do men find it difficult to open up about their mental health, how can we start conversations that help men to ask for help? have you or a man in your family been affected by mental health issues? would really love you to join the conversation and tell us what happened and share your experience with us. carl frampton, men in crisis coming up. and here is the news from giuliano casadei. train drivers in the aslef union are holding their first national

walk—out since march, as part of an ongoing dispute about pay and conditions. it begins a weekend of disruption on the railways, which coincides with the eurovision final in liverpool, and the women's fa cup final at wembley. new figures show the economy grew by 0.1 % in the first quarter of this year. it means the uk has avoided a predicted recession. ukraine says its forces have made advances around the city of bakhmut, that's been under attack from russian forces for months. kyiv says it's troops have advanced around one and a half miles. ukraine's president, volodymyr zelensky, has been refused permission to address the tens of millions of viewers of tomorrow's eurovision final. the organisers say such a political intervention would be against the competition's rules.

we are discussing men and mental health. and i am so delighted at that carl frampton is with us to discuss these issues and to share things with you, and you can share things with you, and you can share things with you, and you can share things with us. good morning. goad things with us. good morning. good mornin: , things with us. good morning. good morning, nikki. _ things with us. good morning. good morning, nikki. how— things with us. good morning. good morning, nikki. how are _ things with us. good morning. (139m morning, nikki. how are you doing? i'm fine. great to have you. you've made this documentary. people can see it on the iplayer. it is so good to talk. what made you get into it? i was approached by the people, the film—makers, double band, i was approached by the people, the film—makers, double hand, through a friend, actually, who'd done a different documentary with them. they reached out to me to get involved. i've never really done anything like this before. ijust thought, why not? i'd like to be involved in it. it was, i think anyway, it was eye—opening for me at times. but it was definitely very worthwhile. times. but it was definitely very worthwhile-—

times. but it was definitely very worthwhile. :, ., worthwhile. yeah. there are some really interesting _ worthwhile. yeah. there are some really interesting specifics - worthwhile. yeah. there are some really interesting specifics to - really interesting specifics to northern ireland. in one of the things that you talk about is intergenerational trauma in the wake of the troubles. people's parents and grandparents, what they went through. that is so interesting. teller us a little bit more? yeah, it is. we spoke _ teller us a little bit more? yeah, it is. we spoke to _ teller us a little bit more? yeah, it is. we spoke to professor- teller us a little bit more? yeah, | it is. we spoke to professor duffy at queen's university. intergenerational trauma is a term i had never heard before speaking to him. i'd like you said, it was really interesting that kids born after the good friday agreement having this trauma passed on through their parents and grandparents, who may have experienced things throughout the troubles. obviously there were some horrible atrocities in northern ireland. it is something that never really crossed my mind before, that these kids who had not seen the worst of what happened in northern ireland, this trauma can be

passed on, almost.— passed on, almost. yeah. it makes comlete passed on, almost. yeah. it makes complete sense, _ passed on, almost. yeah. it makes complete sense, because - passed on, almost. yeah. it makes complete sense, because you - passed on, almost. yeah. it makes complete sense, because you are l complete sense, because you are living in an emotional environment, aren't you? you know, people went through so much. but talking about it is the big thing. and i think thatis it is the big thing. and i think that is what people relate to. it is better than it used to be. i was just saying earlier on when i started talking about my bipolar i think there was a big reaction from people saying, it is great you have done that, that is howl people saying, it is great you have done that, that is how i felt, that is what i have been through. i have a certain platform. you have a massive platform being a sporting hero. i think what you have done is so good. but it is the talking thing, it is the recognising end. you come from this match are world where there probably isn't too much emotional openness in some senses? yeah, i think you're right. it is definitely getting better. people are opening up more and talking.

without sounding cliched, it really is important to talk. a problem shared is a problem halved, is what they say. that is the term they use. i think some people, young men especially, sometimes find it difficult to do that and have the initial conversation, but once they do, i think it can... there are plenty of people out there to help. but they need to know that you need help. i actually had a couple of friends reach out to me after watching the documentary, who i didn't know had these issues that they're having. and hopefully, we can point them in the right direction to get the help that's needed. but i think it's important for people to really share their stories. and kind of normalise speaking out. tyson fury, i think, has been massive. the platform that he has come of the issues that he's gone through and how he has talked about it, the heavyweight champion

of the world, the most macho sport going, he is talking about the issues he has had. i think other people can relate to that. what people can relate to that. what issues have _ people can relate to that. what issues have you _ people can relate to that. what issues have you had? - people can relate to that. what issues have you had? have - people can relate to that. what issues have you had? have you experienced depression? ihlo. issues have you had? have you experienced depression?- issues have you had? have you experienced depression? no. i don't thinki experienced depression? no. i don't think i have — experienced depression? no. i don't think i have experienced _ experienced depression? no. i don't| think i have experienced depression. i don't think anybody has perfect mental health. everybody has their ups and downs, the good days and bad days. boxing for me, it was my life. although i had a wife and kids. but boxing at times kind of took priority over them, which, looking back now and in hindsight, was wrong. and i think i made some decisions that i maybe shouldn't have made. decisions that i maybe shouldn't have made-— decisions that i maybe shouldn't have made.- a - decisions that i maybe shouldn't have made.- a lot - decisions that i maybe shouldn't have made.- a lot of i decisions that i maybe shouldn't . have made.- a lot of these have made. such as? a lot of these thins i have made. such as? a lot of these things i feel — have made. such as? a lot of these things i feel really _ have made. such as? a lot of these things i feel really guilty _ have made. such as? a lot of these things i feel really guilty about. - things i feel really guilty about. so, for example, and it still eats me up to this day, but my wife had

two tragedies in herfamily me up to this day, but my wife had two tragedies in her family were family members died, but i was in training camps forfights. i always trained away from home. london and manchester. and these particular times i was in london training. fights were approaching. i never went on to support her and her family around these tragedies. these are decisions, these are things that i made, and it still eats me up. people talk about sportsmen having to be very selfish to the top, and i understand that. but there is a balance too. the thing that eats me up, i mean, i could have been home for a funeral and back to training camp the same day. and i was influenced by other people as well. ijust influenced by other people as well. i just didn't... influenced by other people as well. ijust didn't... i didn't make my own mind up, my own decisions. i

wanted to be back on but i let other people influenced me. i was told, look, you need to train, you need to be in the best shape of your life, which i understand, but taking half a day home —— off training to be back, and support my wife, whom i love, i didn't do it. these are some of the things that i still have to deal with today. it really annoyed me when i think about it, actually. does it? , ., me when i think about it, actually. doesit? , ., �*, me when i think about it, actually. doesit? , ., 2 :, does it? yes. yeah, it's wrong. i made a mistake. _ does it? yes. yeah, it's wrong. i made a mistake. but _ does it? yes. yeah, it's wrong. i made a mistake. but people - does it? yes. yeah, it's wrong. i made a mistake. but people do. does it? yes. yeah, it's wrong. i - made a mistake. but people do make mistakes. : : ~' :, made a mistake. but people do make mistakes. ~ : ,, :, :, made a mistake. but people do make mistakes. : : ~' :, :, , ., mistakes. acknowledging our steaks as art of mistakes. acknowledging our steaks as part of this- _ mistakes. acknowledging our steaks as part of this. you're _ mistakes. acknowledging our steaks as part of this. you're right. - as part of this. you're right. nobody has perfect mental health. —— acknowledging our mistakes. but talking about it and understanding each other can only lead to a better world. what was it like for her, carl, when you were so single—minded that you sacrificed that family stuff that you should have been

involved in? i stuff that you should have been involved in?— involved in? i think it was obviously _ involved in? i think it was obviously very _ involved in? i think it was obviously very difficult. involved in? i think it wasj obviously very difficult for involved in? i think it was - obviously very difficult for her. i have a very supportive and caring way. but i know she would have preferred me to be at home to support her in her time of need. and i wasn't there. yeah, again, support her in her time of need. and iwasn't there. yeah, again, it support her in her time of need. and i wasn't there. yeah, again, it is a massive regret of mine. it still eats me up a little bit. but i feel like i can deal with it. it is not easy. like i can deal with it. it is not eas . , , easy. martin in the same is with us. to 'oin us easy. martin in the same is with us. to join us with _ easy. martin in the same is with us. to join us with your— easy. martin in the same is with us. to join us with your own _ easy. martin in the same is with us. | to join us with your own experiences of mental health. —— dojoin us. males and those related to males. all valuable experience.— all valuable experience. martin, aood all valuable experience. martin, good morning- _ all valuable experience. martin, good morning. good _ all valuable experience. martin, good morning. good morning. l all valuable experience. martin, - good morning. good morning. great to have ou good morning. good morning. great to have you on- — good morning. good morning. great to have you on. tell _ good morning. good morning. great to have you on. tell us _ good morning. good morning. great to have you on. tell us about _ good morning. good morning. great to have you on. tell us about what - good morning. good morning. great to have you on. tell us about what you i have you on. tell us about what you have you on. tell us about what you have been through and how you have coped with it?— coped with it? well, my mental health has _

coped with it? well, my mental health has fluctuated _ coped with it? well, my mental health has fluctuated since - coped with it? well, my mental health has fluctuated since i - coped with it? well, my mental| health has fluctuated since i was 27. health has fluctuated since i was 27~ i_ health has fluctuated since i was n i got — health has fluctuated since i was 27. i got discharged from the army. it 27. i got discharged from the army. it was _ 27. i got discharged from the army. it was something i really wanted to do. it was something i really wanted to do that _ it was something i really wanted to do. that took a nosedive with my mental— do. that took a nosedive with my mental health. over the last 11 years— mental health. over the last 11 years i— mental health. over the last 11 years i have been diagnosed, i've been _ years i have been diagnosed, i've been treated for depression, not diagnosed but i have been treated for it. _ diagnosed but i have been treated for it. i_ diagnosed but i have been treated for it, i have been diagnosed with autism, _ for it, i have been diagnosed with autism, specifically asperger's syndrome. and also come in the last 11years— syndrome. and also come in the last it years i_ syndrome. and also come in the last 11 years i have nearly taken my own life on _ 11 years i have nearly taken my own life on four — 11 years i have nearly taken my own life on four occasions. i have come very close — life on four occasions. i have come very close. it's never actually happened. but, yeah. i'm married now _ happened. but, yeah. i'm married now i_ happened. but, yeah. i'm married now i have— happened. but, yeah. i'm married now. i have been for the last four years _ now. i have been for the last four years and — now. i have been for the last four years. and because of my wife my mental— years. and because of my wife my mental health has stabilised. and it

is because — mental health has stabilised. and it is because of her that i am still here _ is because of her that i am still here and — is because of her that i am still here and our little boy has a dad. wow _ here and our little boy has a dad. wow a _ here and our little boy has a dad. wow. : :, here and our little boy has a dad. wow— what - here and our little boy has a dad. wow— what you i here and our little boy has a dad. - wow._ what you said wow. a love? indeed. what you said is ke as wow. a love? indeed. what you said is key as well- _ wow. a love? indeed. what you said is key as well. you _ wow. a love? indeed. what you said is key as well. you are _ wow. a love? indeed. what you said is key as well. you are diagnosed - is key as well. you are diagnosed with asperger's. i know the world of adhd very well. if somebody has adhd and they are in a situation where the adhd is such a drawback on their life, and they don't know they have adhd, that is disastrous for your mental health. for you, you didn't know. you must have been thinking, what is going on here, what is going on in my head? that what is going on here, what is going on in my head?— on in my head? that was the case. when i got — on in my head? that was the case. when i got discharged _ on in my head? that was the case. when i got discharged from - on in my head? that was the case. when i got discharged from the - on in my head? that was the case. i when i got discharged from the army iwent— when i got discharged from the army i went through a number of different 'obs. i went through a number of different jobs near— i went through a number of different jobs. near enough every single one of them _ jobs. near enough every single one of them i_ jobs. near enough every single one of them i had i was let go for one reason _ of them i had i was let go for one reason or— of them i had i was let go for one reason or another. it turns out it is because —

reason or another. it turns out it is because of the condition autism. i is because of the condition autism. i didn't— is because of the condition autism. i didn't know that until i was 30. i -ot i didn't know that until i was 30. i got diagnosed then. i had known about— got diagnosed then. i had known about this — got diagnosed then. i had known about this condition for the last eight _ about this condition for the last eight years. —— i have known. it has opened _ eight years. —— i have known. it has opened doors — eight years. —— i have known. it has opened doors in a sense. but it is a case _ opened doors in a sense. but it is a case of. _ opened doors in a sense. but it is a case of. i_ opened doors in a sense. but it is a case of, i really wish i had known about— case of, i really wish i had known about this — case of, i really wish i had known about this earlier. because everything would have been sorted out, it _ everything would have been sorted out, it would have made perfect sense _ out, it would have made perfect sense if— out, it would have made perfect sense if that had been the case. absolutely. you say you are ex army as well. i think martin you will be interested in hearing david in addlestone.— interested in hearing david in addlestone. hello. anotherx soldier. addlestone. hello. anotherx soldier- x _ addlestone. hello. anotherx soldier. x royal— addlestone. hello. anotherx soldier. x royal navy, - addlestone. hello. another x| soldier. x royal navy, buddy. similar! — soldier. x royal navy, buddy. similar! lt— soldier. x royal navy, buddy. similar! i i soldier. x royal navy, buddy. similar! i , ., similar! it is the -- it is all the same, similar! it is the -- it is all the same. isn't — similar! it is the -- it is all the same, isn't it? _ similar! it is the -- it is all the same, isn't it? no, _ similar! it is the -- it is all the same, isn't it? no, it's- similar! it is the -- it is all the same, isn't it? no, it's not. i similar! it is the -- it is all the| same, isn't it? no, it's not. my first mistake! _ same, isn't it? no, it's not. my first mistake! former— same, isn't it? no, it's not. my first mistake! former military. | same, isn't it? no, it's not. my- first mistake! former military. what martin was saying is, leaving the army, leaving a structured environment like that — and i will

bring carolyn because it is like life after boxing, the same sort of deal, when you have known something, you have been focused and dedicated to one particular thing and it is gone, was that the situation with you? gone, was that the situation with ou? ~ , i i, gone, was that the situation with ou? ~ i i :, :, gone, was that the situation with ou? y i i, i, i gone, was that the situation with ou? :, :, , you? myself, no. to be honest i didn't have _ you? myself, no. to be honest i didn't have a — you? myself, no. to be honest i didn't have a good _ you? myself, no. to be honest i didn't have a good time - you? myself, no. to be honest i didn't have a good time in i you? myself, no. to be honest i didn't have a good time in the i you? myself, no. to be honest i i didn't have a good time in the royal navy _ didn't have a good time in the royal navy l've _ didn't have a good time in the royal navy we gotta _ didn't have a good time in the royal navy we gotta be _ didn't have a good time in the royal navy. i've gotta be careful- didn't have a good time in the royal navy. i've gotta be careful i - didn't have a good time in the royal navy. i've gotta be careful i say. i navy. i've gotta be careful i say. because — navy. i've gotta be careful i say. because l'm _ navy. i've gotta be careful i say. because i'm looking _ navy. i've gotta be careful i say. because i'm looking into - navy. i've gotta be careful i say. because i'm looking into it- navy. i've gotta be careful i say. because i'm looking into it now. | navy. i've gotta be careful i say. i because i'm looking into it now. but due to _ because i'm looking into it now. but due to my— because i'm looking into it now. but due to my mental— because i'm looking into it now. but due to my mental health _ because i'm looking into it now. but due to my mental health and - because i'm looking into it now. but due to my mental health and out i due to my mental health and out depression. _ due to my mental health and out depression, anxiety, _ due to my mental health and out depression, anxiety, ptsd, - due to my mental health and out depression, anxiety, ptsd, it- due to my mental health and out depression, anxiety, ptsd, it all| depression, anxiety, ptsd, it all goes— depression, anxiety, ptsd, it all goes into— depression, anxiety, ptsd, it all goes into one. _ depression, anxiety, ptsd, it all goes into one, you _ depression, anxiety, ptsd, it all goes into one, you going - depression, anxiety, ptsd, it all goes into one, you going to- goes into one, you going to yourself _ goes into one, you going to yourself. when— goes into one, you going to yourself. when i— goes into one, you going to yourself. when i was - goes into one, you going to yourself. when i was made| goes into one, you going to— yourself. when i was made redundant i yourself. when i was made redundant i gave _ yourself. when i was made redundant l gave up— yourself. when i was made redundant l gave up my— yourself. when i was made redundant i gave up my council— yourself. when i was made redundant i gave up my council flat— yourself. when i was made redundant i gave up my council flat to _ yourself. when i was made redundant i gave up my council flat to join - i gave up my council flat tojoin the military _ i gave up my council flat tojoin the military. then— i gave up my council flat tojoin the military. then they - i gave up my council flat tojoin the military. then they may. i gave up my council flat tojoin the military. then they may be| the military. then they may be redundant _ the military. then they may be redundant. i've _ the military. then they may be redundant. i've got _ the military. then they may be redundant. i've got the - the military. then they may be i redundant. i've got the paperwork. i've redundant. i've got the paperwork. we got— redundant. i've got the paperwork. we got the — redundant. i've got the paperwork. i've got the proof. _ redundant. i've got the paperwork. i've got the proof. —— _ redundant. i've got the paperwork. i've got the proof. —— they- redundant. i've got the paperwork. i've got the proof. —— they made i redundant. i've got the paperwork. i i've got the proof. —— they made me redundant~ — i've got the proof. —— they made me redundant. when— i've got the proof. —— they made me redundant. when i— i've got the proof. —— they made me redundant. when i was— i've got the proof. —— they made me redundant. when i was made - i've got the proof. —— they made me i redundant. when i was made redundant wrongfully. _ redundant. when i was made redundant wrongfully. i_ redundant. when i was made redundant wrongfully. i came _ redundant. when i was made redundant wrongfully, i came out, _ redundant. when i was made redundant wrongfully, i came out, i— redundant. when i was made redundant wrongfully, i came out, i had _ redundant. when i was made redundant wrongfully, i came out, i had no - wrongfully, i came out, i had no home _ wrongfully, i came out, i had no home, nowhere _ wrongfully, i came out, i had no home, nowhere go. _ wrongfully, i came out, i had no home, nowhere go. i— wrongfully, i came out, i had no home, nowhere go. i had i wrongfully, i came out, i had no home, nowhere go. i had one i wrongfully, i came out, i had no i home, nowhere go. i had one mum, wrongfully, i came out, i had no - home, nowhere go. i had one mum, an old-age _ home, nowhere go. i had one mum, an old-age pensioner. _ home, nowhere go. i had one mum, an old—age pensioner, helping _ home, nowhere go. i had one mum, an old—age pensioner, helping me - home, nowhere go. i had one mum, an old—age pensioner, helping me pay- home, nowhere go. i had one mum, an old—age pensioner, helping me pay my| old—age pensioner, helping me pay my private _ old—age pensioner, helping me pay my private rent~ _ old—age pensioner, helping me pay my private rent~ l'm — old—age pensioner, helping me pay my

private rent. i'm getting _ old—age pensioner, helping me pay my private rent. i'm getting myself- old—age pensioner, helping me pay my private rent. i'm getting myself in- private rent. i'm getting myself in a panic— private rent. i'm getting myself in a panic attack— private rent. i'm getting myself in a panic attack now, _ private rent. i'm getting myself in a panic attack now, buddy. - private rent. i'm getting myself in a panic attack now, buddy. it i private rent. i'm getting myself in. a panic attack now, buddy. it brings it all back — a panic attack now, buddy. it brings it all back. with — a panic attack now, buddy. it brings it all back. with the _ a panic attack now, buddy. it brings it all back. with the mental - a panic attack now, buddy. it brings it all back. with the mental health i it all back. with the mental health there _ it all back. with the mental health there is— it all back. with the mental health there is not— it all back. with the mental health there is not a _ it all back. with the mental health there is not a lot _ it all back. with the mental health there is not a lot of— it all back. with the mental health there is not a lot of help— it all back. with the mental health there is not a lot of help for- it all back. with the mental health there is not a lot of help for men. there is not a lot of help for men of my— there is not a lot of help for men of my age — there is not a lot of help for men of my age i_ there is not a lot of help for men of myage~ lam _ there is not a lot of help for men of my age. i am 43. _ there is not a lot of help for men of my age. i am 43. fire- there is not a lot of help for men of my age. i am 43.— there is not a lot of help for men of my age. i am 43. are you 0k to carry on? _ of my age. i am 43. are you 0k to carry on? yeah. — of my age. i am 43. are you 0k to carry on? yeah, i'm _ of my age. i am 43. are you 0k to carry on? yeah, i'm all— of my age. i am 43. are you 0k to carry on? yeah, i'm all right, i of my age. i am 43. are you 0k to i carry on? yeah, i'm all right, mate. i'm lad carry on? yeah, i'm all right, mate. i'm glad i'm — carry on? yeah, i'm all right, mate. i'm glad i'm getting _ carry on? yeah, i'm all right, mate. i'm glad i'm getting it _ carry on? yeah, i'm all right, mate. i'm glad i'm getting it out. - carry on? yeah, i'm all right, mate. i'm glad i'm getting it out. there i i'm glad i'm getting it out. there is not _ i'm glad i'm getting it out. there is not a _ i'm glad i'm getting it out. there is not a lot— i'm glad i'm getting it out. there is not a lot of— i'm glad i'm getting it out. there is not a lot of help _ i'm glad i'm getting it out. there is not a lot of help for _ i'm glad i'm getting it out. there is not a lot of help for men i i'm glad i'm getting it out. there is not a lot of help for men with. is not a lot of help for men with mental— is not a lot of help for men with mental health. _ is not a lot of help for men with mental health. i've _ is not a lot of help for men with mental health. i've been- is not a lot of help for men with mental health. i've been told i is not a lot of help for men with i mental health. i've been told i've major— mental health. i've been told i've major trauma _ mental health. i've been told i've majortrauma. major— mental health. i've been told i've major trauma. major trauma. i mental health. i've been told i'vej majortrauma. majortrauma. i've major trauma. major trauma. i've been _ major trauma. major trauma. i've been told — major trauma. major trauma. i've been told this _ majortrauma. majortrauma. i've been told this for— majortrauma. majortrauma. i've been told this for years. - majortrauma. majortrauma. i've been told this for years. then i majortrauma. majortrauma. i've been told this for years. then we | been told this for years. then we had the _ been told this for years. then we had the outbreak _ been told this for years. then we had the outbreak of _ been told this for years. then we had the outbreak of covid - been told this for years. then we had the outbreak of covid and i had the outbreak of covid and everything _ had the outbreak of covid and everything so _ had the outbreak of covid and everything so everybody i had the outbreak of covid and everything so everybody was i had the outbreak of covid and i everything so everybody was in lockdowni _ everything so everybody was in lockdown, keep _ everything so everybody was in lockdown, keep your— everything so everybody was in lockdown, keep your head i everything so everybody was ini lockdown, keep your head then. everything so everybody was in i lockdown, keep your head then. i didn't— lockdown, keep your head then. i didn't mind — lockdown, keep your head then. i didn't mind lockdown. _ lockdown, keep your head then. i didn't mind lockdown. that- lockdown, keep your head then. i didn't mind lockdown. that is- lockdown, keep your head then. i | didn't mind lockdown. that is how lockdown, keep your head then. i i didn't mind lockdown. that is howl live anyway~ — didn't mind lockdown. that is howl live anyway. do _ didn't mind lockdown. that is howl live anyway. do you _ didn't mind lockdown. that is howl live anyway. do you see _ didn't mind lockdown. that is howl live anyway. do you see what i i didn't mind lockdown. that is howl live anyway. do you see what i am i live anyway. do you see what i am saying? _ live anyway. do you see what i am saying? now — live anyway. do you see what i am saying? now other— live anyway. do you see what i am saying? now other people - live anyway. do you see what i am saying? now other people cant i live anyway. do you see what i am i saying? now other people cant see how i_ saying? now other people cant see howl live — saying? now other people cant see howl live they— saying? now other people cant see how i live. they didn't _ saying? now other people cant see how i live. they didn't like - saying? now other people cant see how i live. they didn't like it. i saying? now other people cant see how i live. they didn't like it. —— i how i live. they didn't like it. —— can— how i live. they didn't like it. —— can see — how i live. they didn't like it. —— can see how— how i live. they didn't like it. —— can see. how do— how i live. they didn't like it. —— can see. how do you _ how i live. they didn't like it. —— can see. how do you think- how i live. they didn't like it. —— can see. how do you think i- how i live. they didn't like it. ——i can see. how do you think i feel? i'm can see. how do you think i feel? l'm used — can see. how do you think i feel? l'm used to — can see. how do you think i feel? i'm used to this. _ can see. how do you think i feel? i'm used to this. people - can see. how do you think i feel? i'm used to this. people in - can see. how do you think i feel? i'm used to this. people in india i i'm used to this. people in india are not— i'm used to this. people in india are not meeting _ i'm used to this. people in india are not meeting the _ i'm used to this. people in india are not meeting the playstationj i'm used to this. people in india i are not meeting the playstation 5 because _ are not meeting the playstation 5 because they've _ are not meeting the playstation 5 because they've never— are not meeting the playstation 5 because they've never played i are not meeting the playstation 5| because they've never played one. are not meeting the playstation 5- because they've never played one. do you see _ because they've never played one. do you see what — because they've never played one. do you see what i — because they've never played one. do you see what i am _ because they've never played one. do you see what i am saying? _ because they've never played one. do you see what i am saying? if- because they've never played one. do you see what i am saying? if you i because they've never played one. do you see what i am saying? if you getl you see what i am saying? if you get into that _ you see what i am saying? if you get into that sort — you see what i am saying? if you get into that sort of _ you see what i am saying? if you get into that sort of routine, _ you see what i am saying? if you get into that sort of routine, you - you see what i am saying? if you get into that sort of routine, you don't i into that sort of routine, you don't know _ into that sort of routine, you don't know it _ into that sort of routine, you don't know it is — into that sort of routine, you don't know it is only— into that sort of routine, you don't know. it is only recently— into that sort of routine, you don't know. it is only recently my i into that sort of routine, you don'ti know. it is only recently my mates

from _ know. it is only recently my mates from the _ know. it is only recently my mates from the army— know. it is only recently my mates from the army come _ know. it is only recently my mates from the army come round - know. it is only recently my mates from the army come round and - know. it is only recently my mates. from the army come round and they see my— from the army come round and they see my certificate _ from the army come round and they see my certificate of— from the army come round and they see my certificate of service. - from the army come round and they see my certificate of service. and i see my certificate of service. and they were — see my certificate of service. and they were like. _ see my certificate of service. and they were like, that _ see my certificate of service. and they were like, that don't - see my certificate of service. and they were like, that don't look. they were like, that don't look right — they were like, that don't look right i— they were like, that don't look right. i questioned _ they were like, that don't look right. i questioned it. - they were like, that don't look right. i questioned it. i've - they were like, that don't look right. i questioned it. i've gotl they were like, that don't look. right. i questioned it. i've got the paperwork — right. i questioned it. i've got the paperwork i_ right. i questioned it. i've got the paperwork. i don't _ right. i questioned it. i've got the paperwork. i don't know, - right. i questioned it. i've got the paperwork. i don't know, i'm - right. i questioned it. i've got the paperwork. i don't know, i'm not| paperwork. i don't know, i'm not even _ paperwork. i don't know, i'm not even about— paperwork. i don't know, i'm not even about watching _ paperwork. i don't know, i'm not even about watching tv - paperwork. i don't know, i'm not even about watching tv at - paperwork. i don't know, i'm not even about watching tv at this . paperwork. i don't know, i'm not i even about watching tv at this time of the _ even about watching tv at this time of the day, — even about watching tv at this time of the day, mate. _ even about watching tv at this time of the day, mate, because - even about watching tv at this time of the day, mate, because i- even about watching tv at this time of the day, mate, because i don't . of the day, mate, because i don't steep _ of the day, mate, because i don't sleep very— of the day, mate, because i don't sleep very wett _ of the day, mate, because i don't sleep very well. but _ of the day, mate, because i don't sleep very well. but i _ of the day, mate, because i don't sleep very well. but i see - of the day, mate, because i don't sleep very well. but i see your. sleep very well. but i see your thinking — sleep very well. but i see your thinking earlier— sleep very well. but i see your thinking earlier about - sleep very well. but i see your thinking earlier about men's . sleep very well. but i see your- thinking earlier about men's mental health— thinking earlier about men's mental health and — thinking earlier about men's mental health and i— thinking earlier about men's mental health and i had _ thinking earlier about men's mental health and i had to _ thinking earlier about men's mental health and i had to say _ thinking earlier about men's mental health and i had to say something. i health and i had to say something. they are _ health and i had to say something. they are hot — health and i had to say something. they are not prepared _ health and i had to say something. they are not prepared to _ health and i had to say something. they are not prepared to help- health and i had to say something. they are not prepared to help me. they are not prepared to help me because _ they are not prepared to help me because i— they are not prepared to help me because i am _ they are not prepared to help me because i am major— they are not prepared to help me because i am major trauma. - they are not prepared to help me because i am major trauma. butl they are not prepared to help me because i am major trauma. but i have _ because i am major trauma. but i have accepted _ because i am major trauma. but i have accepted what _ because i am major trauma. but i have accepted what they - because i am major trauma. but i have accepted what they can - because i am major trauma. but i have accepted what they can give| because i am major trauma. but i- have accepted what they can give me because _ have accepted what they can give me because it _ have accepted what they can give me because it is — have accepted what they can give me because it is a — have accepted what they can give me because it is a start. _ have accepted what they can give me because it is a start. something - have accepted what they can give me because it is a start. something is. because it is a start. something is better— because it is a start. something is better than— because it is a start. something is better than nothing. _ because it is a start. something is better than nothing. so _ because it is a start. something is better than nothing. so i've - because it is a start. something is better than nothing. so i've got. because it is a start. something isi better than nothing. so i've got six weeks _ better than nothing. so i've got six weeks cancelling _ better than nothing. so i've got six weeks cancelling coming _ better than nothing. so i've got six weeks cancelling coming up. - better than nothing. so i've got six weeks cancelling coming up. but . better than nothing. so i've got six. weeks cancelling coming up. but that is a 12_ weeks cancelling coming up. but that is a 12 week— weeks cancelling coming up. but that is a 12 week waiting _ weeks cancelling coming up. but that is a 12 week waiting list. _ weeks cancelling coming up. but that is a 12 week waiting list. -- _ is a 12 week waiting list. -- counselling. _ is a 12 week waiting list. -- counselling. that _ is a 12 week waiting list. counselling. that is the is a 12 week waiting list.= counselling. that is the other thing. getting help. it is counselling. that is the other thing. getting help.— thing. getting help. it is an onauoin thing. getting help. it is an ongoing situation. - thing. getting help. it is an ongoing situation. then - thing. getting help. it is an ongoing situation. then all| thing. getting help. it is an . ongoing situation. then all the bills are — ongoing situation. then all the bills are going _ ongoing situation. then all the bills are going up. _ ongoing situation. then all the bills are going up. that- ongoing situation. then all the bills are going up. that is- ongoing situation. then all the i bills are going up. that is another worry~ _ bills are going up. that is another worry~ all— bills are going up. that is another worry. all the _ bills are going up. that is another worry. all the money— bills are going up. that is another worry. all the money is— bills are going up. that is another worry. all the money is going - bills are going up. that is another worry. all the money is going up.| bills are going up. that is anotherl worry. all the money is going up. i don't _ worry. all the money is going up. i don't know — worry. all the money is going up. i don't know— don't know. that is massive for --eole don't know. that is massive for peeple at _ don't know. that is massive for peeple at the — don't know. that is massive for people at the moment. - don't know. that is massive for people at the moment. do - don't know. that is massive for people at the moment. do you | don't know. that is massive for - people at the moment. do you know

what? it's fantastic you called, david. i'm so pleased. likewise, martin. i'm going to bring in maxwell addo, a psychotherapist. hello. a, it maxwell addo, a psychotherapist. hellm- it is _ maxwell addo, a psychotherapist. hello.- it is great - maxwell addo, a psychotherapist. hello.- it is great we - maxwell addo, a psychotherapist. | hello.- it is great we have hello. morning. it is great we have not carl hello. morning. it is great we have got carl and _ hello. morning. it is great we have got carl and david _ hello. morning. it is great we have got carl and david and _ hello. morning. it is great we have got carl and david and martin. - hello. morning. it is great we have| got carl and david and martin. very important points from all. david saying, getting the help, that is a battle? . ., , , saying, getting the help, that is a battle? . . , , r battle? yeah, absolutely. and i think also _ battle? yeah, absolutely. and i think also what _ battle? yeah, absolutely. and i think also what david _ battle? yeah, absolutely. and i think also what david was - battle? yeah, absolutely. and i | think also what david was saying about _ think also what david was saying about it — think also what david was saying about it being a start, that's really— about it being a start, that's really important, aboutjust being able to— really important, aboutjust being able to start. i think getting help can be _ able to start. i think getting help can be different for different pebble _ can be different for different people. and i appreciate that sometimes getting help may be different in different places as wet — different in different places as wet it— different in different places as well. it might be that getting 12 weeks — well. it might be that getting 12 weeks counselling is the only thing avaitabte _ weeks counselling is the only thing available because of resources. it might— available because of resources. it might be — available because of resources. it might be that getting help is speaking with friends or loved ones. ithink— speaking with friends or loved ones. i think getting help can mean so marry— i think getting help can mean so many different things. but again, to

echo what— many different things. but again, to echo what david is saying, it is about — echo what david is saying, it is about starting, it is about making the journey, about starting, it is about making thejourney, making about starting, it is about making the journey, making the choice to start— the journey, making the choice to start and — the journey, making the choice to start and to — the journey, making the choice to start and to improve some of the difficutties— start and to improve some of the difficulties that people are experiencing, particularly, david sounds — experiencing, particularly, david sounds like there is lots going on. and understandably, with his redundancy and the other things he is experiencing, but making a start as the _ is experiencing, but making a start as the important thing. and is experiencing, but making a start as the important thing.— as the important thing. and also, bein: as the important thing. and also, being preperly _ as the important thing. and also, being properly diagnosed - as the important thing. and also, being properly diagnosed with - as the important thing. and also, i being properly diagnosed with your condition. adhd very much with bipolar. when i was diagnosed the guy, who was brilliant, i was able to access it, of course. that is a matter of luck and it is also a matter of luck and it is also a matter of luck and it is also a matter of guilt. he said, it's not a problem for you because you are doing a job that requires that. and it requires hyperfocus as well. but if you are in a situation that is

completely ill suited to you because of your condition, it is a nightmare. and then it is a problem. and that's the situation we have their in autism with martin. and david is well with ptsd. it is that whole thing, maxwell, not understanding what is going on. not being able to explain what is going on. make sense of it, maxwell? i on. make sense of it, maxwell? i think it can be so difficult when you are — think it can be so difficult when you are experiencing things and not realty— you are experiencing things and not really abte — you are experiencing things and not really able to put any sense to it, too articulated, because don't have the answers, you don't have the vocabutary~ _ the answers, you don't have the vocabulary. i think that can really intensify— vocabulary. i think that can really intensify and exacerbate some of the feelings _ intensify and exacerbate some of the feelings. when david was talking about— feelings. when david was talking about ptsd, i think sometimesjust tabettihg _ about ptsd, i think sometimesjust labelling it can be useful. and i think— labelling it can be useful. and i think it — labelling it can be useful. and i think it was martin that talked about— think it was martin that talked about asperger's as well and having that diagnosis at a relatively late

age. _ that diagnosis at a relatively late age, which is starting to become more _ age, which is starting to become more common now, i think. there is something _ more common now, i think. there is something about how we can make sense _ something about how we can make sense and — something about how we can make sense and how we can link our experiences to some of the labels so that we _ experiences to some of the labels so that we might be able to get the i’ili'it that we might be able to get the right support. that we might be able to get the right sowed-— that we might be able to get the right support. absolutely. that is s - ot right support. absolutely. that is sot on. right support. absolutely. that is spot on. thank _ right support. absolutely. that is spot on. thank you _ right support. absolutely. that is spot on. thank you david, - right support. absolutely. that is spot on. thank you david, thank| right support. absolutely. that is i spot on. thank you david, thank you martin. carl, coming back to you, leaving boxing, when people get out of a situation like that that is so structured in such a world within a word, you kind of thing, we are going to see some of your documentary in a minute, you kind of think now, now what?— think now, now what? yeah. i know --eole think now, now what? yeah. i know peeple who — think now, now what? yeah. i know people who have — think now, now what? yeah. i know people who have had _ think now, now what? yeah. i know people who have had a _ think now, now what? yeah. i know people who have had a hard - think now, now what? yeah. i know people who have had a hard time i people who have had a hard time after boxing. luckily enough, i haven't been one of them people. and i think part of the reason is because of my family. i have a very supportive family. but also, i think one of the issues is people sometimes don't reach the potential,

they hide their thought they were going to get to. i think that can really eat people up. —— the heights they thought they were going to get it. i was lucky in a sense that i probably overachieved a little bit. i had a dream of becoming a world champion. when you win world titles in two different divisions, i can feel satisfied with what i'd done in my career. but i know people who have had of their careers cut short because of injury. and other people who just like to fight and love the boys and love the atmosphere. and it's hard to deal with when that goes away. it's hard to deal with when that goes away-— it's hard to deal with when that noes awa . ., ., ., ., , goes away. yeah. you were a worthy world champion, _ goes away. yeah. you were a worthy world champion, by _ goes away. yeah. you were a worthy world champion, by the _ goes away. yeah. you were a worthy world champion, by the way, - goes away. yeah. you were a worthy world champion, by the way, in - goes away. yeah. you were a worthy world champion, by the way, in two | world champion, by the way, in two different divisions. it wasn't overachieving. you fulfil your potential, which is a different thing. here you are right now. let's look at some of the documentary. this is you talking about what some

men feel is expected of them. these notions about _ men feel is expected of them. these notions about men, _ men feel is expected of them. these notions about men, they _ men feel is expected of them. these notions about men, they have - men feel is expected of them. these notions about men, they have to - men feel is expected of them. these notions about men, they have to be | notions about men, they have to be strong, _ notions about men, they have to be strong, brave and courageous, we flick strong, brave and courageous, we ftick that— strong, brave and courageous, we ftick that oh — strong, brave and courageous, we flick that on the head with young men get — flick that on the head with young men get them to think about, it's wrong _ men get them to think about, it's wrong to— men get them to think about, it's wrong to think about, i'm not doing 0k. wrong to think about, i'm not doing 0k~ there's— wrong to think about, i'm not doing 0k. there's a sense of bravery in there _ 0k. there's a sense of bravery in there it's — 0k. there's a sense of bravery in there. it's hard for me —— for men to show— there. it's hard for me —— for men to show their _ there. it's hard for me —— for men to show their emotions. we want to connect _ to show their emotions. we want to connect with them to say, these things— connect with them to say, these things are — connect with them to say, these things are ok, and get them in the space _ things are ok, and get them in the space where it is safe to do it. is space where it is safe to do it. [s it space where it is safe to do it. it wrong for space where it is safe to do it. is it wrong for a man to show his emotions? _ it wrong for a man to show his emotions? i— it wrong for a man to show his emotions?— it wrong for a man to show his emotions? ,, �* , ,., ., ., emotions? i think it's important to shout your— emotions? i think it's important to shout your emotions. _ emotions? i think it's important to shout your emotions. i _ emotions? i think it's important to shout your emotions. i seen - emotions? i think it's important to shout your emotions. i seen the i shout your emotions. i seen the question earlier on, when was the last time you cried? i am always crying, like. always crying. things that i am upset about. i'm not a windbag or anything. that i am upset about. i'm not a windbag oranything. i'm not that i am upset about. i'm not a windbag or anything. i'm not crying always. i'm saying always. rather than a builds up and it explodes and something happens that you regret later on. it looks brilliant. i am going to bring in evan grant.— it looks brilliant. i am going to bring in evan grant. hello, evan. good morning- —

bring in evan grant. hello, evan. good morning. i— bring in evan grant. hello, evan. good morning. i am _ bring in evan grant. hello, evan. good morning. i am so _ bring in evan grant. hello, evan. good morning. i am so pleased l bring in evan grant. hello, evan. i good morning. i am so pleased you are able to — good morning. i am so pleased you are able to come _ good morning. i am so pleased you are able to come on. _ good morning. i am so pleased you are able to come on. this _ good morning. i am so pleased you are able to come on. this is - are able to come on. this is something what you have been talking about and campaigning on that matters hugely to my daughters, who both know young men at university who took their own lives. this is a campaign that you are leading out of the moment, you are one of the leaders of the campaign, because of yourson leaders of the campaign, because of your son cameron. tell me about cameron?— cameron? so, cameron was a third-year — cameron? so, cameron was a third-year student _ cameron? so, cameron was a third-year student at - cameron? so, cameron was a i third-year student at university. cameron? so, cameron was a - third-year student at university. he third—year student at university. he was 21 _ third—year student at university. he was 21 he — third—year student at university. he was 21. he took his own life back in 2014. _ was 21. he took his own life back in 2014. in— was 21. he took his own life back in 2014, in november. eight and a half years— 2014, in november. eight and a half years ago _ 2014, in november. eight and a half years ago. when cameron died nobody knew he _ years ago. when cameron died nobody knew he was— years ago. when cameron died nobody knew he was ill. he was doing well academically. he was active socially and physically. he played frisbee and physically. he played frisbee and he _ and physically. he played frisbee and he was the treasurer of the university— and he was the treasurer of the university frisbee club and team. and we _ university frisbee club and team. and we all— university frisbee club and team. and we all thought he was doing really— and we all thought he was doing really well. he had really found his

feet and _ really well. he had really found his feet and was looking forward to doing _ feet and was looking forward to doing a — feet and was looking forward to doing a masters in theology and going _ doing a masters in theology and going to — doing a masters in theology and going to work abroad. but it wasn't enough _ going to work abroad. but it wasn't enough he — going to work abroad. but it wasn't enough. he took his own life and he left us _ enough. he took his own life and he left us a _ enough. he took his own life and he left us a letter, describing in the letter— left us a letter, describing in the letter that— left us a letter, describing in the letter that he had been fighting symptoms of depression for more than seven— symptoms of depression for more than seven years _ symptoms of depression for more than seven years. he day—to—day struggles back to _ seven years. he day—to—day struggles back to a _ seven years. he day—to—day struggles back to a particular day when he was still back to a particular day when he was stitl13~ _ back to a particular day when he was stitl13~ he _ back to a particular day when he was still 13. he thought —— default of these _ still 13. he thought —— default of these demons on his own, because cameron— these demons on his own, because cameron chose to bottle all that up. the cameron grant memorial trust encourages anyone seeking help to speak— encourages anyone seeking help to speak up— encourages anyone seeking help to speak up and asked for help. we strongly— speak up and asked for help. we strongly believe that the sooner you talk, the _ strongly believe that the sooner you talk, the easier it is to fix things _ talk, the easier it is to fix things it _ talk, the easier it is to fix things. it really echoes what everybody else has said so far. we believe _ everybody else has said so far. we believe talking is so important. yeah _ believe talking is so important. yeah. there is something on the screen. three times as many men as women died by suicide. my goodness, it started at 13. did you have any sense of it at all?— it started at 13. did you have any sense of it at all? there was one time, i sense of it at all? there was one time. ithink— sense of it at all? there was one time, | think it _ sense of it at all? there was one time, i think it was _

sense of it at all? there was one time, i think it was when - sense of it at all? there was one time, i think it was when he - sense of it at all? there was one time, i think it was when he was | sense of it at all? there was one i time, i think it was when he was 17, when _ time, i think it was when he was 17, when he _ time, i think it was when he was 17, when he asked for help. he got six counselling sessions. he chose to keep— counselling sessions. he chose to keep that — counselling sessions. he chose to keep that to himself. he went to the counselling sessions and said he was better _ counselling sessions and said he was better he _ counselling sessions and said he was better. he chose not to share with us what _ better. he chose not to share with us what was in her —— his mind. he did seem— us what was in her —— his mind. he did seem to— us what was in her —— his mind. he did seem to get better. we only learned — did seem to get better. we only learned subsequently that he had told the _ learned subsequently that he had told the medical people at the time that he _ told the medical people at the time that he was suicidal, but had asked for that— that he was suicidal, but had asked for that to — that he was suicidal, but had asked for that to be kept from us as parents — for that to be kept from us as parents and the rest of his family. so apart— parents and the rest of his family. so apart from with one incident of self-harm, — so apart from with one incident of self—harm, which we know so apart from with one incident of self— harm, which we know now is so apart from with one incident of self—harm, which we know now is a really _ self—harm, which we know now is a really loud — self—harm, which we know now is a really loud cry, but at the time thought— really loud cry, but at the time thought it _ really loud cry, but at the time thought it wasjust really loud cry, but at the time thought it was just the sort of thing — thought it was just the sort of thing that a lot of kids went through. _ thing that a lot of kids went through, but apart from that one incident — through, but apart from that one incident of— through, but apart from that one incident of self—harm we had no indication— incident of self—harm we had no indication at all that there was anything — indication at all that there was anything wrong. and often parents can be _ anything wrong. and often parents can be the — anything wrong. and often parents can be the last to know. but in cameron— can be the last to know. but in cameron pass my case it was titeratty— cameron pass my case it was literally nobody knew. his frisbee france, _ literally nobody knew. his frisbee france, his — literally nobody knew. his frisbee france, his classmates, his housemates, his friends at school, nobody _ housemates, his friends at school, nobody knew anything was wrong. it was a _ nobody knew anything was wrong. it was a complete shock to everyone.

why. _ was a complete shock to everyone. why. do _ was a complete shock to everyone. why. do you — was a complete shock to everyone. why, do you think, a young man disproportionately prone to taking their own lives and suffering from depression? that seems to be the case. that statistic that i just mentioned that micro in addition to cameron's experience i have suffered recurrent depression myself as an adult. �* ~ recurrent depression myself as an adult. �* ,, , , adult. and i think in broad terms the fact that _ adult. and i think in broad terms the fact that it _ adult. and i think in broad terms the fact that it has _ adult. and i think in broad terms the fact that it has been - adult. and i think in broad terms the fact that it has been so - adult. and i think in broad terms i the fact that it has been so awkward to talk— the fact that it has been so awkward to talk about feelings and mental health— to talk about feelings and mental health amongst men, that is one reason — health amongst men, that is one reason. and if there was only one thing _ reason. and if there was only one thing that— reason. and if there was only one thing that my wife carol and i think would _ thing that my wife carol and i think would have — thing that my wife carol and i think would have helped cameron, it would have been— would have helped cameron, it would have been freedom to seek out earlier — have been freedom to seek out earlier. we cannot think of any reason — earlier. we cannot think of any reason he _ earlier. we cannot think of any reason he wouldn't have sought help accept _ reason he wouldn't have sought help accept that _ reason he wouldn't have sought help accept that he didn't want to admit to the _ accept that he didn't want to admit to the problem. so, ithink accept that he didn't want to admit to the problem. so, i think the situation — to the problem. so, i think the situation with yourself, carl and

others, — situation with yourself, carl and others, who have talked about the mental _ others, who have talked about the mental health and the public arena, that makes— mental health and the public arena, that makes a big difference, but as a society— that makes a big difference, but as a society we need to keep working on that year— a society we need to keep working on that year after year after year until— that year after year after year until we — that year after year after year until we are just as free talking about— until we are just as free talking about feelings and mental health as we are _ about feelings and mental health as we are about physical health. canl we are about physical health. can i 'ust 'um we are about physical health. can i justjump in _ we are about physical health. can i justjump in there? _ we are about physical health. can i justjump in there? please. - we are about physical health. can i justjump in there? please. i- we are about physical health. can i justjump in there? please. i was. justjump in there? please. iwas s-ueakin justjump in there? please. iwas speaking to _ justjump in there? please. iwas speaking to people _ justjump in there? please. iwas speaking to people in _ justjump in there? please. iwas speaking to people in a - justjump in there? please. iwas speaking to people in a group i justjump in there? please. i was. speaking to people in a group called west well—being, a centre based in west well—being, a centre based in west belfast, they are life—savers, these people. the amount of people they are dealing with on a daily basis is astronomical. and one of the statistics that he said to me was that more women attempt to take their own lives, but more men actually go through with it. i'm keeping it down to how aggressive men can be. it was heartbreaking. but i opening as well. and another really interesting thing, this guy called daisyjones, who runs the centre, —— days

called daisyjones, who runs the centre, —— dastones — he said this centre, —— dastones — he said this centre up after attempting to take his own life, he said, nobody wants to die. all they want to do is to take away the pain and the suffering that they are feeling at that moment. that is something that will live with me. that will sit with me for the rest of my days, i think. you can't get rid of the pain and suffering unless you speak up and seek help. suffering unless you speak up and seek hel. . suffering unless you speak up and seek hel-. . , suffering unless you speak up and seek hel. . , . ., seek help. yeah. it is what evan said there- _ seek help. yeah. it is what evan said there. not _ seek help. yeah. it is what evan said there. not wanting - seek help. yeah. it is what evan said there. not wanting to - seek help. yeah. it is what evan| said there. not wanting to admit that there is a problem micro? yeah. auain, that there is a problem micro? yeah. again. that — that there is a problem micro? yeah. again. that is — that there is a problem micro? yeah. again. that is a _ that there is a problem micro? yeah. again, that is a masculine _ that there is a problem micro? yeah. again, that is a masculine thing. i again, that is a masculine thing. like you said at the top of the show, it is changing and people are becoming more open and talking about things, but there is still a long way to go. and another part of it is about, you know, some people may not want to speak to their own family members because they feel ashamed or embarrassed about how they're feeling, which is wrong. some people

may not have the of family as well. but there is actually help out there. but it is about trying to find it and trying to find the right people you can speak to.- find it and trying to find the right people you can speak to. yeah, evan, come morning — people you can speak to. yeah, evan, come morning again. _ people you can speak to. yeah, evan, come morning again. i— people you can speak to. yeah, evan, come morning again. ithink- people you can speak to. yeah, evan, come morning again. i think there i people you can speak to. yeah, evan, come morning again. i think there is i come morning again. i think there is another statistic _ come morning again. i think there is another statistic i _ come morning again. i think there is another statistic i would _ come morning again. i think there is another statistic i would add - come morning again. i think there is another statistic i would add to - another statistic i would add to this _ another statistic i would add to this you — another statistic i would add to this. you are quite rightly focused on young — this. you are quite rightly focused on young people's mental health i’ili'it on young people's mental health right now— on young people's mental health right now and young men. we talked about— right now and young men. we talked about the _ right now and young men. we talked about the greater risk of death by suicide _ about the greater risk of death by suicide amongst men. and i think it's especially important to work with kids — it's especially important to work with kids at school and students because — with kids at school and students because of the effect it can have on the rest _ because of the effect it can have on the rest of— because of the effect it can have on the rest of your life. the statistics still show it is men 45 to 55_ statistics still show it is men 45 to 55 who — statistics still show it is men 45 to 55 who are the greatest risk of suicide — to 55 who are the greatest risk of suicide no— to 55 who are the greatest risk of suicide. no doubt that is a follow—on from problems that, in many— follow—on from problems that, in many cases, began much earlier. but it's important we work on young suicide, — it's important we work on young suicide, but also suicide from —— for men — suicide, but also suicide from —— for men and _ suicide, but also suicide from —— for men and women of all ages. it is still men _ for men and women of all ages. it is still men who are at risk of taking their— still men who are at risk of taking their own — still men who are at risk of taking their own lives. i�*m still men who are at risk of taking their own lives.— still men who are at risk of taking their own lives. i'm glad you could come on. — their own lives. i'm glad you could

come on, evan. _ their own lives. i'm glad you could come on, evan. car— their own lives. i'm glad you could come on, evan. car staying - their own lives. i'm glad you could come on, evan. car staying with l their own lives. i'm glad you could l come on, evan. car staying with us. evan, tells about the campaign briefly? — we make drinks mats and physical items— we make drinks mats and physical items of— we make drinks mats and physical items of information on them, it might— items of information on them, it might be — items of information on them, it might be in— items of information on them, it might be in the university workplace, a sports club, there is helpful— workplace, a sports club, there is helpful information on the things we make, _ helpful information on the things we make. the _ helpful information on the things we make, the health information most important — make, the health information most important for that community, the people _ important for that community, the people want to contact us through the website, we distribute these free of— the website, we distribute these free of charge, and also mention the campaign _ free of charge, and also mention the campaign you talked about, student suicide, _ campaign you talked about, student suicide, there is a debate coming up in parliament about universities having — in parliament about universities having a — in parliament about universities having a statutory duty of care to look after — having a statutory duty of care to look after students, which follows on from _ look after students, which follows on from a — look after students, which follows on from a government petition of 130,000 — on from a government petition of 130,000 votes, so i would encourage people _ 130,000 votes, so i would encourage people to _ 130,000 votes, so i would encourage people to follow that debate and encourage their mps to take part in that debate about statutory duty of care for— that debate about statutory duty of care for universities towards students. care for universities towards students-— care for universities towards students. . ,, , ., , . students. thank you very much indeed, evan, _ students. thank you very much indeed, evan, our— students. thank you very much indeed, evan, our thoughts i students. thank you very much j indeed, evan, our thoughts are students. thank you very much i indeed, evan, our thoughts are with you and cameron sounds like a marvellous young man. we've been

looking at some pictures on the screen. thank you for getting in touch with me on social media. more on this to come. the chancellor jeremy hunt has been speaking in japan where he is at a meeting of g7 finance ministers. we had the news this morning the uk economy grew by just 0.1% betweenjanuary and march, and here he is. just 0.1% between january and march, and here he is-— just 0.196 between january and march, and here he is-— and here he is. these are much better figures _ and here he is. these are much better figures than _ and here he is. these are much better figures than anyone - and here he is. these are much i better figures than anyone would possibly have predicted, even three months ago. that is partly because of what the government and the bank of what the government and the bank of england said yesterday, measures in the budget that are helping to help companies to recruit, tackle some of the underlying problems in the economy, but there is still much work to do. we still have inflation thatis work to do. we still have inflation that is much too high, causing a lot of pressure forfamilies that is much too high, causing a lot of pressure for families up and down the country, that's why we've got to stick to a plan to get inflation down, to get growth up and to get the economy motoring in the way that

we all want. tbs, the economy motoring in the way that we all want. �* , the economy motoring in the way that we all want. . , ,.,, the economy motoring in the way that we all want-— we all want. a very positive message the are we all want. a very positive message they are from — we all want. a very positive message they are from the _ we all want. a very positive message they are from the chancellor - we all want. a very positive message they are from the chancellor of - we all want. a very positive message they are from the chancellor of the l they are from the chancellor of the exchequer, jeremy hunt. we will discuss them continue our discussion on men's mental health. it's friday morning and here is the news. train passengers are facing cancellations on many lines — at the start of a weekend likely to be severely disrupted by strike action. train drivers in the aslef union have walked out today, in their continuing dispute about pay and conditions. more disruption is expected when rmt union members walk out. the uk economy grew very slightly in the first three months of the year, and was held back by strikes, cost of living pressures and wet weather. it grew by 0.1% betweenjanuary

and march, and remains smaller than levels seen before the covid pandemic. the police say they're reviewing the 13—hour detention of a royalfan — who was standing near protesters on the day of the coronation. alice chambers has told the bbc she was shocked at being arrested on saturday along with a group from just stop oil. the running orderfor saturday's eurovision final has been revealed. austria will open the show — and the uk's mae muller will as close it with "i wrote a song". uefa have ruled out the possibility of moving the europa conference league final away from the fortuna arena in prague after criticism that it has a capacity ofjust 20,000 and the competing clubs would recieve just 25% of that each. west ham lead after their semifinal 1st leg against az alkmaar but would recieve just 5000 tickets if they made the final — the london stadium has a capacity of 60,000. elsewhere erling haaland's been named the football writers association player of the year after his 51 goals

for manchester city — while chelsea'a sam kerr became the first back to back winner of the women's award. to rugby union — england skipper marlie packer sastohn mitchell is the new voice they need — the former all blacks coach will take over as red roses coach after the men's world cup later this year — they wrapped up their 5th 6 nations title in a row last month. and in golf — 26 players have been hit with fines and bans from golf�*s european tour for playing on events run by the controversial breakaway circuit liv golf last year — they face fines ranging from 12 and a half thousand pounds to 100k and possible suspensions from up to 8 tournaments.

carl frampton is here and we're are talking about men's mental health. he has made a brilliant documentary you can see on iplayer addressing men's mental health, something we need to talk about. and we are. thank you to everyone very bravely getting in touch. let's speak to some callers. it is an important conversation to have, and i am glad you are a part of it, what would you like to see? id you are a part of it, what would you like to see?— like to see? i'd like to say that most men _ like to see? i'd like to say that most men don't _ like to see? i'd like to say that most men don't realise - like to see? i'd like to say that most men don't realise what i like to see? i'd like to say that i most men don't realise what they like to see? i'd like to say that -

most men don't realise what they are going through. today i have got an appointment at 2:30 with a mental health doctor, but these hopes i have had tojump health doctor, but these hopes i have had to jump through to get to that point... have had to 'ump through to get to that point. . .— have had to 'ump through to get to that point. . .h it _ have had to 'ump through to get to that point. . .i it is _ that point... yeah. it is incredible. _ that point... yeah. it is incredible. now- that point... yeah. it is incredible. now i - that point... yeah. it is incredible. nowi am i that point... yeah. it is i incredible. nowi am going that point... yeah. it is i incredible. now i am going to that point... yeah. it is _ incredible. now i am going to speak today to somebody who hopefully will get into my mind and sort me out, because you know what? i did not go into this with drugs, drink, sol drive a lorry every day, nikki, and my motto is, if you can drive in, you can back out. so i don't need drugs, i don't need things to calm

me down or anything, and it is... you know what? i listened to your conversation before about children, write? it is as if the adults have dumped everything on the children, expectations, right? let's take the word exam out of the equation and let's put the word test. now, there is a curriculum which you have to go through as a teacher. now, let's test on each bulk of you have done three months on this, let's test you. ratherthan three months on this, let's test you. rather than asking a child of ii to you. rather than asking a child of 11 to remember 12 months. we have

just dumped everything on the kids. i am pleased you mentioned that phoning i want people to people to listen to it, you can see it on iplayer and listen to on bbc sounds. and what is giving me great cheer is the fact you have managed to get to somebody to talk to. on that issue about drugs. maxwell, interesting what christopher said about not needing, sometimes it is fine to say i know this, just trying to say actually may be that is what i need, so long as i get the right diagnosis, maxwell, with a stressed nhs and limited time for appointments, having to wait a long time to see somebody, getting the right diagnosis and getting the right diagnosis and getting the right assistance is difficult, but it's so important, maxwell. yes. right assistance is difficult, but it's so important, maxwell. yes, i atree. i it's so important, maxwell. yes, i agree- ithink— it's so important, maxwell. yes, i agree. i think there _ it's so important, maxwell. yes, i agree. i think there are _ it's so important, maxwell. yes, i agree. i think there are so - it's so important, maxwell. yes, i agree. i think there are so many i agree. i think there are so many challenges, but i think again being

able to— challenges, but i think again being able to work towards understanding 1's able to work towards understanding is self— able to work towards understanding is self is _ able to work towards understanding 1's self is going to be crucial, i think— 1's self is going to be crucial, i think it — 1's self is going to be crucial, i think it is _ 1's self is going to be crucial, i think it is great that your last collar— think it is great that your last collar is— think it is great that your last collar is able to make the appointment and hopefully get the assistance that he might need, without— assistance that he might need, without any substances involved. i would _ without any substances involved. i would argue anyway that sometimes we do know— would argue anyway that sometimes we do know what we feel, there is again something _ do know what we feel, there is again something about not recognising it, not being _ something about not recognising it, not being able to articulate it, but ithink— not being able to articulate it, but i think acknowledging there is a feeling, — i think acknowledging there is a feeling, we are not all mental health— feeling, we are not all mental health experts, we don't always know exactly _ health experts, we don't always know exactly what it is able to distinguish from one thing to the other— distinguish from one thing to the other but— distinguish from one thing to the other but i— distinguish from one thing to the other but i think there is something about— other but i think there is something about understanding that things feel right _ about understanding that things feel right and _ about understanding that things feel right. and maybe that isjust also part of— right. and maybe that isjust also part of the — right. and maybe that isjust also part of the star of recognising, ok, i part of the star of recognising, ok, i might— part of the star of recognising, ok, i might not— part of the star of recognising, ok, i might not know what the size that i might not know what the size that i acknowledge it. who i might not know what the size that i acknowledge it.— i acknowledge it. who is there to hel us? i acknowledge it. who is there to help us? exactly. _ i acknowledge it. who is there to help us? exactly. and _ i acknowledge it. who is there to help us? exactly. and if- i acknowledge it. who is there to help us? exactly. and if i - i acknowledge it. who is there to help us? exactly. and if i don't i help us? exactly. and ifi don't know, help us? exactly. and ifi don't

know. what — help us? exactly. and ifi don't know, what can _ help us? exactly. and ifi don't know, what can i _ help us? exactly. and ifi don't know, what can i do _ help us? exactly. and ifi don't know, what can i do and - help us? exactly. and ifi don'tj know, what can i do and where help us? exactly. and if i don't i know, what can i do and where can i io know, what can i do and where can i go to— know, what can i do and where can i go to to _ know, what can i do and where can i go to to find — know, what can i do and where can i go to to find out about that? and again. _ go to to find out about that? and again. i_ go to to find out about that? and again, ithink go to to find out about that? and again, i think that can vary in terms— again, i think that can vary in terms of— again, i think that can vary in terms of either going to therapy or support— terms of either going to therapy or support groups. anyway, it really depends— support groups. anyway, it really depends on what it is you are experiencing, so this scholar that called _ experiencing, so this scholar that called in — experiencing, so this scholar that called injust now, it might be that what _ called injust now, it might be that what they— called injust now, it might be that what they are experiencing requires to go— what they are experiencing requires to go to _ what they are experiencing requires to go to a _ what they are experiencing requires to go to a mental health specialist, it may— to go to a mental health specialist, it may be _ to go to a mental health specialist, it may be that something is milder and more — it may be that something is milder and more about education, psychological education, but sometimes we have an inkling that something may not be right and if we do not _ something may not be right and if we do not understand that, that's ok, it's about — do not understand that, that's ok, it's about where we seek the support from not _ it's about where we seek the support from not moving forward. carl, sometimes _ from not moving forward. carl, sometimes very _ from not moving forward. carl, sometimes very often, - from not moving forward. (i—i sometimes very often, problems as from not moving forward. (1—�*i sometimes very often, problems as an aduu sometimes very often, problems as an adult can be caused by some childhood trauma. very often it can be abuse, something we have spoken about, i have spoken about on this programme, experiences at school, and that can... it never leaves you.

you were talking about the generational legacy of. it can be a traumatic event in childhood, and i'm sure you've come across it and all the people you have spoken to, that just all the people you have spoken to, thatjust kinds of haunts you. yeah, there's many _ thatjust kinds of haunts you. yeah, there's many reasons _ thatjust kinds of haunts you. yeah, there's many reasons as _ thatjust kinds of haunts you. yeah, there's many reasons as to - thatjust kinds of haunts you. yeah, there's many reasons as to why i there's many reasons as to why people are bad mental health and we see dramatic experiences as a child. i actually touched on a little bit, i actually touched on a little hit, it did not affect me, i was able to deal with the 0k. it did not affect me, i was able to deal with the ok. i saw the aftermath of a friend of mine�*s brother being blown up by a pipe bomb, and i was only a kid, brother being blown up by a pipe bomb, and i was onlya kid, and brother being blown up by a pipe bomb, and i was only a kid, and you shouldn't really see things like that ever in your life, never mind being a kid, but i saw the aftermath of it and my brother actually seen it happen, and ijust remember my brother's, daily, brother, he was

white as a ghost and just into the distance. that will stick with me till the day i die, i think. we were from a very, very close family. again, it is something we didn't really talk about things like that. and it is a generational thing, isn't it? people thought a generation ago or two generations if you smoke up a bit mental health issues, someone you would need a slap in the ear or something, why is “p slap in the ear or something, why is up or whatever. that's what they were giving them a given but it is changing there for the better, but more needs to be done and more people need to speak up. i more needs to be done and more people need to speak up.- more needs to be done and more people need to speak up. i think so much about — people need to speak up. i think so much about when _ people need to speak up. i think so much about when you _ people need to speak up. i think so much about when you see - people need to speak up. i think so much about when you see people l people need to speak up. i think so i much about when you see people and kids in war zones, what the long—term lifelong effects will be from what they witness and what they have gone through in their lives.

simba in thornbury, hello. thank you, i know there is something you really want to talk about and i notice going to be tough but i really appreciate you getting in touch with us. and my sympathies go out to you, i know you lost your son recently. my profound condolences. tell me about him. just recently. my profound condolences. tell me about him.— tell me about him. just a typical teenaue tell me about him. just a typical teenage party. _ tell me about him. just a typical teenage party. very _ tell me about him. just a typical teenage party, very quiet, - tell me about him. just a typical teenage party, very quiet, full. tell me about him. just a typical| teenage party, very quiet, full of live -- _ teenage party, very quiet, full of live -- a — teenage party, very quiet, full of live -- a typical— teenage party, very quiet, full of live —— a typical teenage - teenage party, very quiet, full of live —— a typical teenage boy. - teenage party, very quiet, full of live —— a typical teenage boy. hej live —— a typical teenage boy. he was a _ live —— a typical teenage boy. he was a good — live —— a typical teenage boy. he was a good soul. _ live —— a typical teenage boy. he was a good soul. but _ live —— a typical teenage boy. he was a good soul. but i _ live —— a typical teenage boy. he was a good soul. but i was - live —— a typical teenage boy. he was a good soul. but i wasjust. was a good soul. but i wasjust calling — was a good soul. but i wasjust calling because, _ was a good soul. but i wasjust calling because, i— was a good soul. but i wasjust calling because, i went- was a good soul. but i wasjust. calling because, i went downstairs and i_ calling because, i went downstairs and i heard — calling because, i went downstairs and i heard coral— calling because, i went downstairs and i heard coral say— calling because, i went downstairs and i heard coral say that- calling because, i went downstairs and i heard coral say that nobody. and i heard coral say that nobody wants _ and i heard coral say that nobody wants to — and i heard coral say that nobody wants to die _ and i heard coral say that nobody wants to die and _ and i heard coral say that nobody wants to die and i— and i heard coral say that nobody wants to die and i totally- and i heard coral say that nobody

wants to die and i totally agree l wants to die and i totally agree with what— wants to die and i totally agree with what he _ wants to die and i totally agree with what he said _ wants to die and i totally agree with what he said and - wants to die and i totally agree with what he said and what - wants to die and i totally agree with what he said and what the j wants to die and i totally agree - with what he said and what the other gentleman— with what he said and what the other gentleman said. _ with what he said and what the other gentleman said, we _ with what he said and what the other gentleman said, we need _ with what he said and what the other gentleman said, we need to- with what he said and what the other gentleman said, we need to talk- gentleman said, we need to talk about— gentleman said, we need to talk about it. — gentleman said, we need to talk about it. i— gentleman said, we need to talk about it. idid— gentleman said, we need to talk about it, i did not— gentleman said, we need to talk about it, i did not know- gentleman said, we need to talk about it, i did not know that- gentleman said, we need to talk about it, i did not know that my| gentleman said, we need to talk. about it, i did not know that my son ever had _ about it, i did not know that my son ever had those _ about it, i did not know that my son ever had those thoughts, _ about it, i did not know that my son ever had those thoughts, until- about it, i did not know that my son ever had those thoughts, until he . ever had those thoughts, until he was in _ ever had those thoughts, until he was in hospital... _ ever had those thoughts, until he was in hospital... and _ ever had those thoughts, until he was in hospital... and there - ever had those thoughts, until he was in hospital... and there is . ever had those thoughts, until he was in hospital... and there is a i was in hospital... and there is a long _ was in hospital... and there is a long list— was in hospital... and there is a long list of— was in hospital... and there is a long list of possibilities, - was in hospital... and there is a long list of possibilities, i- was in hospital... and there is a long list of possibilities, i do - was in hospital... and there is a| long list of possibilities, i do not know. _ long list of possibilities, i do not know. he — long list of possibilities, i do not know. he did _ long list of possibilities, i do not know, he did not _ long list of possibilities, i do not know, he did not leave - long list of possibilities, i do not know, he did not leave any- long list of possibilities, i do not| know, he did not leave any note, long list of possibilities, i do not - know, he did not leave any note, we had hever— know, he did not leave any note, we had never spoken _ know, he did not leave any note, we had never spoken about _ know, he did not leave any note, we had never spoken about him - know, he did not leave any note, we had never spoken about him havingl had never spoken about him having those _ had never spoken about him having those feelings _ had never spoken about him having those feelings as _ had never spoken about him having those feelings as before, _ had never spoken about him having those feelings as before, no - had never spoken about him having those feelings as before, no one i those feelings as before, no one ever— those feelings as before, no one ever came — those feelings as before, no one ever came to— those feelings as before, no one ever came to me _ those feelings as before, no one ever came to me and _ those feelings as before, no one ever came to me and said - those feelings as before, no one ever came to me and said i- those feelings as before, no one ever came to me and said i am l ever came to me and said i am worried — ever came to me and said i am worried about _ ever came to me and said i am worried about your— ever came to me and said i am worried about your son, - ever came to me and said i am worried about your son, but i i ever came to me and said i am. worried about your son, but i do know— worried about your son, but i do know him — worried about your son, but i do know him and _ worried about your son, but i do know him and i— worried about your son, but i do know him and i do— worried about your son, but i do know him and i do know- worried about your son, but i do know him and i do know that. worried about your son, but i do know him and i do know that he| worried about your son, but i do i know him and i do know that he did not want _ know him and i do know that he did not want to— know him and i do know that he did not want to die. _ know him and i do know that he did not want to die. i— know him and i do know that he did not want to die. i want— know him and i do know that he did not want to die. i want to _ know him and i do know that he did not want to die. i want to say- know him and i do know that he did not want to die. i want to say to - not want to die. i want to say to carl—

not want to die. i want to say to carl that— not want to die. i want to say to carl that i— not want to die. i want to say to carl that i commend _ not want to die. i want to say to carl that i commend you - not want to die. i want to say to| carl that i commend you because not want to die. i want to say to - carl that i commend you because you have had _ carl that i commend you because you have had your— carl that i commend you because you have had your struggles _ carl that i commend you because you have had your struggles and - carl that i commend you because you have had your struggles and want - carl that i commend you because you have had your struggles and want to| have had your struggles and want to do something — have had your struggles and want to do something about _ have had your struggles and want to do something about it. _ have had your struggles and want to do something about it. for- have had your struggles and want to do something about it. for some . do something about it. for some people. — do something about it. for some people. it — do something about it. for some people, it doesn't _ do something about it. for some people, it doesn't matter- do something about it. for some people, it doesn't matter if- do something about it. for some people, it doesn't matter if they| people, it doesn't matter if they can stop — people, it doesn't matter if they can stop themselves _ people, it doesn't matter if they can stop themselves from - people, it doesn't matter if they can stop themselves from doing j can stop themselves from doing anything — can stop themselves from doing anything like _ can stop themselves from doing anything like this, _ can stop themselves from doing anything like this, it _ can stop themselves from doing anything like this, it doesn't - anything like this, it doesn't matter— anything like this, it doesn't matter if— anything like this, it doesn't matter if they _ anything like this, it doesn't matter if they stopped - anything like this, it doesn't . matter if they stopped himself anything like this, it doesn't - matter if they stopped himself once or -o matter if they stopped himself once or go through — matter if they stopped himself once or go through with _ matter if they stopped himself once or go through with it, _ matter if they stopped himself once or go through with it, the _ matter if they stopped himself once or go through with it, the fact - matter if they stopped himself once or go through with it, the fact that i or go through with it, the fact that they tried — or go through with it, the fact that they tried to — or go through with it, the fact that they tried to do _ or go through with it, the fact that they tried to do alone, _ or go through with it, the fact that they tried to do alone, i _ or go through with it, the fact that they tried to do alone, i feel- or go through with it, the fact that they tried to do alone, i feel like l they tried to do alone, i feel like we need — they tried to do alone, i feel like we need to— they tried to do alone, i feel like we need to commend _ they tried to do alone, i feel like we need to commend those - they tried to do alone, i feel like i we need to commend those people they tried to do alone, i feel like - we need to commend those people and remind _ we need to commend those people and remind ourselves— we need to commend those people and remind ourselves for— we need to commend those people and remind ourselves for like _ we need to commend those people and remind ourselves for like my _ we need to commend those people and remind ourselves for like my son - we need to commend those people and remind ourselves for like my son and l remind ourselves for like my son and people. _ remind ourselves for like my son and people. they— remind ourselves for like my son and people. they were _ remind ourselves for like my son and people, they were very _ remind ourselves for like my son and people, they were very strong - remind ourselves for like my son and| people, they were very strong people for trying _ people, they were very strong people for trying their— people, they were very strong people for trying their best _ people, they were very strong people for trying their best before _ people, they were very strong people for trying their best before those - for trying their best before those thoughts — for trying their best before those thoughts turned _ for trying their best before those thoughts turned to _ for trying their best before those thoughts turned to action. - for trying their best before those thoughts turned to action. whatl for trying their best before those thoughts turned to action. what is our son's thoughts turned to action. what is your son's name? _ thoughts turned to action. what is your son's name? i _ thoughts turned to action. what is your son's name? i better- thoughts turned to action. what is your son's name? i better not - your son's name? i better not mention it- —

your son's name? i better not mention it. don't _ your son's name? i better not mention it. don't worry, - your son's name? i better not mention it. don't worry, you i your son's name? i better not. mention it. don't worry, you told your son's name? i better not - mention it. don't worry, you told us what he was — mention it. don't worry, you told us what he was like _ mention it. don't worry, you told us what he was like in _ mention it. don't worry, you told us what he was like in his _ mention it. don't worry, you told us what he was like in his personality, | what he was like in his personality, i completely appreciate that. what is it likewise mclean—mack it is still early days. == is it likewise mclean-mack it is still early days.— still early days. -- it is still early days- _ still early days. -- it is still early days. of _ still early days. -- it is still early days. of course, - still early days. -- it is still early days. of course, and | still early days. -- it is still| early days. of course, and it still early days. -- it is still- early days. of course, and it will alwa s early days. of course, and it will always be _ early days. of course, and it will always be with _ early days. of course, and it will always be with you, _ early days. of course, and it will always be with you, incredibly i early days. of course, and it will. always be with you, incredibly brave of you to phone us. also picking up on what carl said, nobody wants to die and how that resonated with you, and in sense gives people strength, to request mclean—mack yes, you have to request mclean—mack yes, you have to be very strong when you are going through something like this. it does not matter if it is only a month but the fact he came and was able to not do it and act on it... i the fact he came and was able to not do it and act on it. . ._ do it and act on it... i commend an bod do it and act on it... i commend anybody for _ do it and act on it... i commend anybody for it- _ do it and act on it... i commend anybody for it. life _ do it and act on it... i commend anybody for it. life is _

do it and act on it... i commend anybody for it. life is hard, - do it and act on it... i commend anybody for it. life is hard, but| anybody for it. life is hard, but nobody— anybody for it. life is hard, but nobody wants _ anybody for it. life is hard, but nobody wants to _ anybody for it. life is hard, but nobody wants to die. _ anybody for it. life is hard, but nobody wants to die. that- anybody for it. life is hard, but nobody wants to die.— anybody for it. life is hard, but nobody wants to die. that is the thin , nobody wants to die. that is the thing. knowing _ nobody wants to die. that is the thing, knowing that _ nobody wants to die. that is the thing, knowing that he - nobody wants to die. that is the thing, knowing that he did - nobody wants to die. that is the thing, knowing that he did not l nobody wants to die. that is the - thing, knowing that he did not want to die, it isjust an escape thing, knowing that he did not want to die, it is just an escape from the stuff that is going on, from his feelings that he has, because of the depression. am i right in saying you found him? i depression. am i right in saying you found him? ., , depression. am i right in saying you found him? ., depression. am i right in saying you found him?— depression. am i right in saying you found him? ., ., ., ., found him? i was at home with other children, found him? i was at home with other children. my — found him? i was at home with other children, my younger _ found him? i was at home with other children, my younger son _ found him? i was at home with other children, my younger son and - found him? i was at home with other children, my younger son and his - children, my younger son and his brother— children, my younger son and his brother is — children, my younger son and his brother is the _ children, my younger son and his brother is the one _ children, my younger son and his brother is the one that _ children, my younger son and his brother is the one that found - children, my younger son and his brother is the one that found him and for— brother is the one that found him and for me — brother is the one that found him and for me it— brother is the one that found him and for me. it is _ brother is the one that found him and for me. it is tough, - brother is the one that found him and for me. it is tough, it- brother is the one that found him and for me. it is tough, it is- brother is the one that found him and for me. it is tough, it is a - and for me. it is tough, it is a long — and for me. it is tough, it is a long story, _ and for me. it is tough, it is a long story, i_ and for me. it is tough, it is a long story, lam _ and for me. it is tough, it is a long story, i am happy- and for me. it is tough, it is a long story, i am happy to- and for me. it is tough, it is a i long story, i am happy to share and for me. it is tough, it is a - long story, i am happy to share my story. _ long story, i am happy to share my story. by— long story, i am happy to share my story, bythe— long story, i am happy to share my story, by the moment _ long story, i am happy to share my story, by the moment i _ long story, i am happy to share my story, by the moment i can't. - long story, i am happy to share my story, by the moment i can't. i- long story, i am happy to share myj story, by the moment i can't. ijust wanted _ story, by the moment i can't. ijust wanted to— story, by the moment i can't. ijust wanted to thank— story, by the moment i can't. ijust

wanted to thank carl. _ story, by the moment i can't. ijust wanted to thank carl. on _ story, by the moment i can't. ijust wanted to thank carl. on the - story, by the moment i can't. ijust wanted to thank carl. on the other| wanted to thank carl. on the other gentleman, — wanted to thank carl. on the other gentleman, i— wanted to thank carl. on the other gentleman, i did _ wanted to thank carl. on the other gentleman, i did not— wanted to thank carl. on the other gentleman, i did not pick- wanted to thank carl. on the other gentleman, i did not pick up - gentleman, i did not pick up his nanre — gentleman, i did not pick up his nanre and _ gentleman, i did not pick up his name. and everyone _ gentleman, i did not pick up his name. and everyone doing - gentleman, i did not pick up his| name. and everyone doing what they're — name. and everyone doing what they're doing _ name. and everyone doing what they're doing help. _ name. and everyone doing what they're doing help. i— name. and everyone doing what they're doing help. ijust- name. and everyone doing whatj they're doing help. ijust wanted name. and everyone doing what i they're doing help. ijust wanted to say thank— they're doing help. ijust wanted to say thank you _ they're doing help. i 'ust wanted to say thank yeah they're doing help. i 'ust wanted to say thank you. thank you for calling and i 'ust say thank you. thank you for calling and liust want _ say thank you. thank you for calling and i just want to _ say thank you. thank you for calling and i just want to pass _ say thank you. thank you for calling and i just want to pass on _ say thank you. thank you for calling and i just want to pass on my - and ijust want to pass on my condolences, i'm sure what you're experiencing is absolutely horrible. ijust experiencing is absolutely horrible. i just don't experiencing is absolutely horrible. ijust don't imagine, it is hard... it is hard to know what you are going through. thank you for the kind words to me, anyway, and i think when you have a wee bit of a platform, anyway, you should always try to use it any positive way, i think. .,, , try to use it any positive way, i think. , , ., �*, think. positively, exactly. that's what you're _ think. positively, exactly. that's what you're doing, _ think. positively, exactly. that's what you're doing, so _ think. positively, exactly. that's what you're doing, so well - think. positively, exactly. that's| what you're doing, so well done, thank— what you're doing, so well done, thank you —

what you're doing, so well done, thank you. somebody— what you're doing, so well done, thank you. somebody will- what you're doing, so well done, thank you. somebody will theoryj what you're doing, so well done, - thank you. somebody will theory and it will— thank you. somebody will theory and it will stop _ thank you. somebody will theory and it will stop them. _ thank you. somebody will theory and it will stop them, it _ thank you. somebody will theory and it will stop them, it will— thank you. somebody will theory and it will stop them, it will help - it will stop them, it will help then — it will stop them, it will help then -- _ it will stop them, it will help then -- bill— it will stop them, it will help them. —— bill hewlett. - it will stop them, it will help them. -- bill hewlett. thank you for comint them. -- bill hewlett. thank you for coming on. — them. -- bill hewlett. thank you for coming on. that _ them. -- bill hewlett. thank you for coming on, that message _ them. -- bill hewlett. thank you for coming on, that message will - coming on, that message will resonate. maybe we will talk again one day. thank you.— resonate. maybe we will talk again one day. thank you. yeah, thank you. carl, in one day. thank you. yeah, thank you. carl. in brightly _ one day. thank you. yeah, thank you. carl, in brightly hell, _ one day. thank you. yeah, thank you. carl, in brightly hell, you _ one day. thank you. yeah, thank you. carl, in brightly hell, you run - one day. thank you. yeah, thank you. carl, in brightly hell, you run a - carl, in brightly hell, you run a boxing gym, carl is speaking to carl. —— brightly hill. boxing gym, carl is speaking to carl. -- brightly hill.— carl. -- brightly hill. firstly, condolences _ carl. -- brightly hill. firstly, condolences to _ carl. -- brightly hill. firstly, condolences to the - carl. -- brightly hill. firstly, condolences to the previous | carl. -- brightly hill. firstly, - condolences to the previous caller. i wanted _ condolences to the previous caller. i wanted to — condolences to the previous caller. i wanted to follow up, normally have the tv _ i wanted to follow up, normally have the tv or _ i wanted to follow up, normally have the tv or in — i wanted to follow up, normally have the tv or in the background when i am on _ the tv or in the background when i am on nry— the tv or in the background when i am on my laptop, and we see today, i wanted _ am on my laptop, and we see today, i wanted to— am on my laptop, and we see today, i wanted to thank carl, a lot of males

look up _ wanted to thank carl, a lot of males look up to— wanted to thank carl, a lot of males look up to carl, if you're interested in boxing he has had a brilliant _ interested in boxing he has had a brilliant boxing career, is now on the tv— brilliant boxing career, is now on the tv as — brilliant boxing career, is now on the tv as a — brilliant boxing career, is now on the tv as a presenter, so a lot of people _ the tv as a presenter, so a lot of people look— the tv as a presenter, so a lot of people look up to him and it is great — people look up to him and it is great to— people look up to him and it is great to have high—profile sports people _ great to have high—profile sports people coming on talking about nrental— people coming on talking about mental health. basically they generally run, i have learnt so much in the _ generally run, i have learnt so much in the last— generally run, i have learnt so much in the last six— generally run, i have learnt so much in the last six or seven months about— in the last six or seven months about mental health, young lads coming, — about mental health, young lads coming, you think they are doing well, _ coming, you think they are doing well, they've got good cars, going on holiday. — well, they've got good cars, going on holiday, got nice jobs and you absolutely— on holiday, got nice jobs and you absolutely haven't got a clue, how it is affecting people, who it is affecting _ it is affecting people, who it is affecting. you can't tell. it is crazy — affecting. you can't tell. it is crazy lt _ affecting. you can't tell. it is crazy. it needs talking about mauron _ crazy. it needs talking about mauron. from a boxing gym point of view. _ mauron. from a boxing gym point of view. we _ mauron. from a boxing gym point of view. we are — mauron. from a boxing gym point of view, we are looking to work with a local— view, we are looking to work with a local charity — view, we are looking to work with a local charity and set something up with them, for people to come in,

have _ with them, for people to come in, have a _ with them, for people to come in, have a cup— with them, for people to come in, have a cup of tea, do some training if you _ have a cup of tea, do some training if you want— have a cup of tea, do some training if you want to, give them the option to come _ if you want to, give them the option to come in. — if you want to, give them the option to come in, chat, train, give people a bit _ to come in, chat, train, give people a bit of— to come in, chat, train, give people a bit of exercise to clear heads. i 'ust a bit of exercise to clear heads. i just wanted — a bit of exercise to clear heads. i just wanted to phone up and thank carl for— just wanted to phone up and thank carl for being on and i think a lot of people — carl for being on and i think a lot of people will be thankful listening to the _ of people will be thankful listening to the show, watching the show. carl is thankint to the show, watching the show. (iai is thanking me, can i to the show, watching the show. (1ai is thanking me, can ijust think? this is something an old coach said to me —— can ijust thank him? he talked about boxing clubs, typically they are in working—class areas where there is a lot of issues and people experience many different issues, but he talked about he and other coaches in the club, where almost like councillors without having a qualification to their name, because there's so many different types of people with different types of people with different issues coming to the gym doors and they can be helped by boxing clubs and sports clubs and

community centres, and a boxing club was almost like a community centre. it is nice when you can produce champions as well, but it is also nice if you can help people in other ways and get them on the straight and narrow and get their head right and narrow and get their head right and we know how important sport can be to do that, sol and we know how important sport can be to do that, so i would like to thank carl for doing the greatjob he is doing. thank carl for doing the great 'ob he is tornafi thank carl for doing the great 'ob he is ternafi he is doing. boxing clubs around the count , he is doing. boxing clubs around the country. exactly _ he is doing. boxing clubs around the country, exactly that, _ he is doing. boxing clubs around the country, exactly that, they - he is doing. boxing clubs around the country, exactly that, they are - country, exactly that, they are community clubs, and it's right, you -et community clubs, and it's right, you get national— community clubs, and it's right, you get national champions, and when we set the _ get national champions, and when we set the club _ get national champions, and when we set the club up, i thought that's what _ set the club up, i thought that's what it— set the club up, i thought that's what it was all about, but it is far from _ what it was all about, but it is far from that. — what it was all about, but it is far from that, that'sjust what it was all about, but it is far from that, that's just a fraction of it, from that, that's just a fraction of it. it _ from that, that's just a fraction of it. it is _ from that, that's just a fraction of it. it is kids— from that, that's just a fraction of it, it is kids coming in who mums and dads— it, it is kids coming in who mums and dads pony up and say they don't really— and dads pony up and say they don't really go _ and dads pony up and say they don't really go out to speak to people, they come — really go out to speak to people, they come into gym the first time and they— they come into gym the first time and they don't they want to speak or

shake _ and they don't they want to speak or shake hands, and then you see them ten months _ shake hands, and then you see them ten months later... the}r shake hands, and then you see them ten months later. . ._ shake hands, and then you see them ten months later... they come out of themselves — ten months later... they come out of themselves. it _ ten months later... they come out of themselves. it is _ ten months later... they come out of themselves. it is transformative. - themselves. it is transformative. how important do you think physical health is for your mental health? absolutely. i lost my mum six or seven _ absolutely. i lost my mum six or seven years _ absolutely. i lost my mum six or seven years ago, got a phone call out of— seven years ago, got a phone call out of the — seven years ago, got a phone call out of the blue that she had passed away. _ out of the blue that she had passed away. and — out of the blue that she had passed away, and to make things worse we had had _ away, and to make things worse we had had a _ away, and to make things worse we had had a fallout, we had not spoken. _ had had a fallout, we had not spoken, so that made it worse. and i had a _ spoken, so that made it worse. and i had a business, the business when, i stopped _ had a business, the business when, i stopped caring, stop caring about everything. we had a strong —— i had a strong _ everything. we had a strong —— i had a strong wife — everything. we had a strong —— i had a strong wife and two young children. _ a strong wife and two young children, and again, it was through boxing. _ children, and again, it was through boxing. i_ children, and again, it was through boxing, i had not box for a few years. — boxing, i had not box for a few years. but— boxing, i had not box for a few years. but i_ boxing, i had not box for a few years, but i went down to the local boxing _ years, but i went down to the local boxing club — years, but i went down to the local boxing club and told them what had happened, said i was having a bit of

time out _ happened, said i was having a bit of time out of— happened, said i was having a bit of time out of work ijust started training — time out of work ijust started training and chatting to the other guys. _ training and chatting to the other guys. and — training and chatting to the other guys, and it definitely helped sort me out. _ guys, and it definitely helped sort me out, and even now, if i'm not up and out— me out, and even now, if i'm not up and out in— me out, and even now, if i'm not up and out inthe— me out, and even now, if i'm not up and out in the morning, if i don't io and out in the morning, if i don't go out _ and out in the morning, if i don't go out and — and out in the morning, if i don't go out and get fresh air, ijust go through— go out and get fresh air, ijust go through the same each day, and when i speak— through the same each day, and when i speak to _ through the same each day, and when i speak to other people they tell me the same. _ i speak to other people they tell me the same, get out. if you can'tjog 'ust the same, get out. if you can'tjog just go— the same, get out. if you can'tjog just go out— the same, get out. if you can'tjog just go out for a little warm, clear your— just go out for a little warm, clear your head — just go out for a little warm, clear your head-— just go out for a little warm, clear ourhead. , . , , ., your head. yes, i always used to say to myself. — your head. yes, i always used to say to myself. you _ your head. yes, i always used to say to myself, you never _ your head. yes, i always used to say to myself, you never feel— your head. yes, i always used to say to myself, you never feel worse - to myself, you neverfeel worse after a run, to myself, you neverfeel worse aftera run, do you? to myself, you never feel worse after a run, do you?— to myself, you never feel worse after a run, do you? that's right. if ou after a run, do you? that's right. if you can't _ after a run, do you? that's right. if you can'tjog. _ after a run, do you? that's right. if you can't jog, can't _ after a run, do you? that's right. if you can't jog, can't run, - after a run, do you? that's right. if you can't jog, can't run, go - after a run, do you? that's right. if you can't jog, can't run, go for| if you can'tjog, can't run, go for a walk — if you can'tjog, can't run, go for a walk get _ if you can'tjog, can't run, go for a walk. get out of the house, bit of fresh _ a walk. get out of the house, bit of fresh air. _ a walk. get out of the house, bit of fresh air, have a little walk, if you're — fresh air, have a little walk, if you're feeling down and have a ten or 15 minute — you're feeling down and have a ten or 15 minute walk, come back and you will or15 minute walk, come back and you will feel— or15 minute walk, come back and you will feel any— or 15 minute walk, come back and you will feel any better place. covid was such a _ will feel any better place. covid was such a challenge _ will feel any better place. covid was such a challenge for - will feel any better place. covidl was such a challenge for people, listen to? nicky: all this month, the bbc is sharing stories and tips

on how to support your mental health and wellbeing. search for bbc headroom to find out more. and if you're looking for support with anything we've discussed this morning, you can find details of organisations who can offer help if you go to bbc.co.uk/actionline ca rl�*s carl's documentaries on bbc iplayer and it is called men in crisis and i thoroughly recommend it. it is really good and he is really good. martin darby, lowe. what is your... good to talk about this? it’s martin darby, lowe. what is your... good to talk about this?— good to talk about this? it's really important- — good to talk about this? it's really important- it— good to talk about this? it's really important. it annoys _ good to talk about this? it's really important. it annoys me _ good to talk about this? it's really important. it annoys me slightly l important. it annoys me slightly when we say we talk about it more, because the stats don't really change, there's always lots of people we are not reaching, so we need to keep on even more. hagar people we are not reaching, so we need to keep on even more. how do we

reach them? — need to keep on even more. how do we reach them? how _ need to keep on even more. how do we reach them? how do _ need to keep on even more. how do we reach them? how do we _ need to keep on even more. how do we reach them? how do we get _ need to keep on even more. how do we reach them? how do we get there? - need to keep on even more. how do we reach them? how do we get there? i i reach them? how do we get there? i don't know. i was a musician originally and when i had a breakdown... well, not to break them by run—off and did a show in edinburgh... looking back on you think how stupid it was but it works out for me because when i did the show it was surprising to see blokes come up to afterwards and chat about it because you had sang a song song told a joke rather than satiny white gown in a hospital room, it seemed easier to open up and have a conversation about it. got some texts here... _ conversation about it. got some texts here... my _ conversation about it. got some texts here... my brother - conversation about it. got some texts here... my brother declan| conversation about it. got some - texts here... my brother declan took his life at 13, it shocked the whole community and affected our lives massively, people affected by suicide are more likely to attempt suicide. it is a struggle i have that with my whole life, a feeling that with my whole life, a feeling that the world would be better off without you by no sand this is not true, the world is full of people

crying when you leave. when you listen to callers, they are broken by it, whether it was recently a longer ago. there is a mental health epidemic in the uk, especially with children and young people, no were near enough help support, most interventions are at the point of crisis, we need to go upstream and help children earlier before it is too late. some of the important points in there, sorry i did not read it well to do itjustice. what you're saying, to get the message out there. . you're saying, to get the message out there. , , , , out there. yes, the surprising thing is, when i realised _ out there. yes, the surprising thing is, when i realised there _ out there. yes, the surprising thing is, when i realised there was - out there. yes, the surprising thing is, when i realised there was a - out there. yes, the surprising thing | is, when i realised there was a good way to reach the kaino blokes that don't normally talk about it, since we have been touring comedy tickets seem to be bought by partners or friends are people who have been left behind, not by the actual blokes, the blokes tend to be surprised by the fact they are coming to a cake and comedy show and they are not completely sure of what they are not completely sure of what the material is because their partner has brought them along. at first i was a bit worried about it

but when you chat with people afterwards, they seem very glad that they actually came in that their partner... that they were actually opening up about stuff. partner. .. that they were actually opening up about stuff.— opening up about stuff. another text. well done _ opening up about stuff. another text. well done to _ opening up about stuff. another text. well done to all— opening up about stuff. another text. well done to all the - opening up about stuff. another text. well done to all the men l text. well done to all the men calling in to talk about this, the most parochial thing you can do is open up and let others know how you're feeling, it takes a strong person to admit they need help. from nickel in the country. thank you very much. carl, give us any nutshell what this documentary all about. it nutshell what this documentary all about. . ., . nutshell what this documentary all about. , . , ., about. it is a number of young men shannt about. it is a number of young men sharing their _ about. it is a number of young men sharing their stories _ about. it is a number of young men sharing their stories very _ about. it is a number of young men sharing their stories very bravely i sharing their stories very bravely so, in my opinion. i think it takes two sometimes it can take a lot to open up, and especially when not a lot of people know your story, so i think hopefully people can take an example of these guys speaking up and seeking help and really it's

about helping people, that's why i want to get involved in the documentary and if we can help one, two or three people, it has been a success story for me.— two or three people, it has been a success story for me. yeah, so, tell me about your— success story for me. yeah, so, tell me about your weekend? _ success story for me. yeah, so, tell me about your weekend? i - success story for me. yeah, so, tell me about your weekend? i wish - me about your weekend? i wish everybody a peaceful, happy and relaxed weekend, and pray of people, it is going to be a joyful one with eurovision. are you going to be sitting in front of your tv, carl, in your spangly top? ila. sitting in front of your tv, carl, in your spangly top?— in your spangly top? no. i am workint in your spangly top? no. i am working tonight _ in your spangly top? no. i am working tonight on _ in your spangly top? no. i am working tonight on a - in your spangly top? no. i am working tonight on a show - in your spangly top? no. i am working tonight on a show in l in your spangly top? no. i am - working tonight on a show in york, the famous bethnal green. still kee-tin a the famous bethnal green. still keeping a spit _ the famous bethnal green. still keeping a spit as a butchers dog, as they say. thank you for coming in —— keeping as fit. thank you to all the callers who have got in touch as well. as i say, have a good weekend,

thanks for listening and watching. we'll be back on monday morning at nine, on the radio, on the telly and talking about what hopefully you want to talk about. live from london. no this is bbc news. imran khan says that he expects to be rearrested when he leaves. migrants on the us mexican border. a controversial immigration policy expires. and in liverpool, we now know the line—up for the final. train strikes me that fans still do not know how they will get here to watch it. we start off in islamabad, where pakistan's former