welcome to hardtalk. i'm stephen sackur and today i'm in berlin outside the humboldt forum, one of germany's great cultural institutions right here in the city centre. it is home to thousands of works of non—european art. now, the thing is, many germans are now asking themselves, why is all this art here? should treasures grabbed by european colonisers be returned

to their countries of origin? well, my guest is the director of the humboldt forum, hartmut dorgerloh. is germany right now the leader in the restitution movement? hartmut dorgerloh, welcome to hardtalk. hello. it's a great pleasure to be in this amazing museum. i think it's fair to say this is perhaps the most ambitious cultural project launched since the unification of germany. what is the... the motivating idea behind it? yes, it's the most prominent cultural project since

the reunification in germany, and it is a debate also about the new heart of the new capital of reunified germany. so it was in the beginning more a discussion about the architecture, about urban development, what to do with the site where originally, for centuries, the main residence of the hohenzollern monarchy... a prussian palace was here. yes, a prussian palace. and after the second world war, when it was torn down, heavily damaged in the war by the communist regime, it was replaced in the 19705 by the so—called palace of the republic, the most iconic building of east germany, where i grew up. and... but it was full of asbestos. this was one of the reasons to close the building. and then a huge discussion started immediately after reunification and you see the results, so, finally, after ten years of discussion, or more than ten years, the federal parliament decided in 2002, more than 20 years ago, to reconstruct

from the outside the former royal palace... ..and to create something new for the inside. that's called the humboldt forum. now, you've just described in brief germany's complicated history... it is. ..since the end of world war ii, and one could argue that for many decades after world war ii, germany, both west and east, was marked — tainted — by that history. of course, divided as well. germany has now come together. do you think this is a time when germany is much more confident, much more outward looking, less internally focused? yes, i would say so, because first of all, it was a rethinking of germany what happens, which was necessary after reunification, and as a person who was born in berlin, i could experience in my home city, so to understand that's much larger

than only the east or the western part of the city. and then i think we've been in a phase where europe became more and more important. i mean the west as well as eastern europe. and perhaps it was also part of unification, bringing the special relationships to west or east germany... to west and eastern europe together. and now i think we are in a phase where we are much more contributing to global issues. yeah. and what's interesting about the humboldt forum is that your main collection is focused on ethnological research and study and collection. and there are thousands and thousands of artefacts and objects here from all over the world, many of them collected by european colonialists. now, is it time for you in this institution to recognise in the 21st century there is something deeply troubling

about this collection and many like it in the great museums of the world? first of all, i would like to say i'm speaking here as the general director of the humboldt forum. we are hosting, we are housing, two museums here in our building — that is the ethnological museum and the museum of asian art. but, legally, they belong to another institution — the state museums in berlin. but you, if i may say so, are the hugely influential custodian... yes. ..of this collection. 0ur institution is in charge for bringing all these different aspects together, and there are two more partners, two other partners — the humboldt university and the city museum as well. so it is a little bit like a shared apartment with different partners, but the main partner, that's true, of the two museums with these incredible huge collections. and they've been exhibited for many decades in another

more remote part of berlin, and now they're in the centre, very, very close to museum island, where the traditional museums have a very, very prominent place. and the humboldt forum is a reason for rethinking these kinds of collections and these kinds of museums. we are thinking in a way that we have to make it more obvious to the visitors how these collections came together, what their provenances are, what are the objects�* biographies. can we talk about objects in these museums in general? and of course colonialism is sometimes a forgotten or overshadowed or less recognised important moment in european, but also in german history. yeah. i want to quote to you the words of adam kuper, who is a south african anthropologist. quite influential in the worlds of culture and museums. he calls these ethnological collections, like this one, he calls them museums

of other people. he says their main purpose, with all of its enlightenment european arrogance, was to demonstrate what europeans and then americans saw as a long upward path to, quote, civilisation. he said, "the more primitive or grotesque many of the objects in these displays was, the better." he found that very problematic. do you understand him? yes, of course. it is problematic from our point of view today. looking back, the situation was completely different. and i think this is a duty we have to talk about the reasons why this collection came together and about the museum as a western institution itself. of course, it reflects, erm... it reflects a power dynamic. i agree. of course it is, erm... ..very eurocentric,

a very european concept. the museum in general, as an institution. and i think we have to redefine what museum can do right now. we have to talk about the history of the institution, the circumstances, how these items were brought together, about colonialism, but also about other power relations within the world, and we have to reflect that the situation in mexico was quite different from what happens in tanzania or what happens in china. so if you are talking about objects from all over the world, we have to look more carefully what are. . .what happens in these years. but in general, it was a great time. it's a "great" time of the universal museum and these ideas collapsed. there is a word, provenance, which is now very important in museums, their collections and their explanations of their collections, and provenance essentially means telling the story of how

the particular objects and pieces came to be on display very far from where they were made and had their cultural significance. do you think you've done enough to explain the provenance of all the amazing objects that we see around us today? what i can say is that the colleagues in the museums who are in charge are looking much more carefully into the biography. i prefer the term biography of these items. and in a way, i'm not... try to talk about cultural belongings, because the characteristics of these items, these artefacts, is so diverse, and what i've learned during my first years here in this new institution is that if you are discussing this with the communities of origin and you can do provenance research in these types of museums and collections only in very,

very close collaboration with these communities, then you learn that these are still living objects, these are still sacred items, and that is why we try to talk about cultural belongings in many, many ways. the french academic who was hired as an adviser, i believe, to the museums here, benedicte savoy, she quit back in 2017, her advisory role. she said that she felt too little attention was being given to this whole provenance debate and explanation, and she feared, she said, that the humboldt forum was going to become, quote, a symbol of german oppression, hegemony and colonialism. and she said the very idea of locating all of these ethnographic collections in a rebuilt prussian palace was, her words, a complete mismatch. it was a deep cut in

the discussion in germany, the situation, and many things changed in between. so there is much more attention given by the museums, which are in charge to provenance research, and there are much more political interest and support given to restitution in various ways. so, in a sense, she forced the museums to think much harder about these issues. i think it is part of a european discussion generally, so that we cannot exhibit these objects without recognising that the world has changed and that the function of museums and its collections is changing tremendously. what about justice? for you, as an influential voice in this world of curation and museums, is the ultimate form ofjustice to return many of these items to the places where they were made?

it depends not on us. it depends on what we do together with communities of origin, with other partners worldwide. but we talked about power dynamics earlier and the dynamics of the, let's say, the 19th century, when white europeans would colonise, they would conduct their military campaigns, they would loot and they would steal and they would bring stuff back. yeah. that was one power dynamic. who has the power now? would you say that the countries from which these items were taken, they should now have the ultimate power to decide what happens to these objects? i think it is the most important thing — don't talk about us without us as it happened 100 years ago. that means even about the future of these collections, of these cultural belongings, you can decide only together. what i've experienced is that it is a case by case situation.

in some situations, digital restitution, circulation, permanent loan, whatever, could be another opportunity. but it is not our decision on the european side, we have to find common solutions together with partners worldwide. that's very interesting because you and your colleagues... and i understand it's not your personal decision. but within the museum collection that you at humboldt forum work with, a key decision was made to return the so—called benin bronzes. it was a decision that actually shook the world of museums. how did you come to make that particular decision? the decision was finally made by the foundation of prussian cultural heritage. the humboldt forum as a project was the reason, perhaps, why it was made now, because as a new institution, from the outside facing

the past, but what we try to do on the inside is something that should offer new doors into a new future. and then you cannot exhibit these items, like the benin bronzes, in a very, let me say, traditional way. and that's why this exhibition was then created, after restitution, it was decided in consultation and collaboration with partners from nigeria with much more contemporary art in it and so on and so on. i think that's the future and... but... sorry to interrupt. but to be clear, the bronzes are not yet back in nigeria. some of them are, but it was decided by the nigerian partner. some are here on permanent loan or a long—term loan, some are in nigeria, some are in the galleries, some are in storage for research, so it's much more complex than sometimes we can imagine because it is a decision made

by the nigerians who are now the owners of the objects. now that's interesting. so what do you think your decisions here in germany about your benin bronzes, what do they imply, for example, for the british museum, which actually has perhaps the world's leading collection of benin bronzes and which seems much more reluctant than you to agree that they must ultimately be returned to nigeria? what's the message? i cannot talk on behalf of my british or french or whatever colleagues, but i know that there are many, many dialogues needed for common solutions, and we are still in contact not only with partners in nigeria. i'm looking forward to what happens in britain, what happens in france and in many other collections, and perhaps they are elaborating something unexperienced even for us.

but do you think the process can go too far and too fast? i mean, the chairman of the trustees of the british museum, the former uk chancellor of the exchequer, george osborne, he said this, in his new role at the museum, british museum, he said dismantling the museum's collections to, in the cause of, quote unquote, restitution, must not, he said, become the careless act of a single generation. he thinks that we should be cautious here. that actually there's a lot still to be said for keeping these collections in their magnificent surroundings where people can come see them, admittedly in the west, as they are today. i would say two things. first, we are not the one who are managing the timetable, so it's not on our side alone. and of course it's a question of more than one generation

to establish a new relationship in discussing the so—called cultures from all over the world. and secondly, i think it is very typical of us in the west, in my eyes, that we are talking about the material culture, because we are so focused on having it on ownership. and what i've learned is that, for instance, a guy from the pacific told me, "oh, it's so stupid, your western thinking. in our culture, people are important when they know something, not when they own something." and, i mean, talking about ownership is a very, very recent concept. so how do you change it? how do you change this museum? because to me, it still looks quite traditional. you've got all your pieces behind glass in cabinets. that's what we expect in a traditional museum. how do you create something very different, which is much more, as you say, about people, about engagement, about conversation and ideas

and less about objects? though it is, i think, generally a discussion about the museum and future, that it's more a place, first a place for people and then for objects. and in a case like this, in this temporary exhibition, the curator ship or the curator responsibility, was given to an artist of a region. she's from nagaland herself and she, zubeni lotha, decided, in collaboration with the curator from the museum, how it should look and how her photographs, her contemporary works as a commentary was involved into the exhibition. and in our case it is about dance, it's about music, it's about sound, it is about discourse, it is about politics, it is about sports or whatever. so there are many, many more relationships if we really want to create a new together in a world thinking about all the global challenges and i think we can contribute to it. but museums cannot be the only

one as an institution contributing to the colonial past. i think it is a social or public debate in general which is necessary and the museums could play an important role, but you cannot repair and you cannot heal the past. in my eyes, you can only create together a new situation of collaboration and cooperation. and when you say the future has to be much more about people and ideas thanjust about objects, do you think the internet, virtual reality, artificial intelligence, all of these things are actually going to change the way we think about the physical reality of museums? do we... do we have all the same, an equal access to the internet globally? i think it is an opportunity, but it depends.

it depends if partners are saying, for instance, digital restitution, digital or 3d printed objects are much more important for us because we want to touch it, we want to use it again. we want to learn how it was made instead ofjust drawing it in a showcase. i think the digital opportunities are next to unlimited, even in terms of museums�* work, but it's not the only solution. and what i've also learned is in our eyes, we say, "ok, you have to put everything online." no, you can't, because, for instance, some objects can be only seen by women because they are used for some secret whatever, initiative of rights and so on, and some objects or even sound recordings could be sacred, so it cannot be listened by everyone. so we have to respect this.

as very rich and still living cultures, we are not talking about dead objects in showcases. a final thought, and it's a reflection on what this cultural institution is. i mean, it's hugely ambitious. it cost hundreds of millions of euros over the last 20 years to set all of this up. governments in europe right now are strapped for cash. it is very unlikely that projects like this are going to be launched in the nearfuture. and the big money now, it seems, for the development of new cultural institutions is coming from, for example, the middle east, where the gulf states, saudi arabia, are pouring billions of dollars into new galleries, new museums, like the new louvre, the new guggenheim in abu dhabi, at vast expense. does this please you or do you worry that this is a dangerous way in which culture and soft political power are being used

in the 21st century? we are in very good contacts with colleagues in the emirates or in china and looking carefully around. i think it's interesting to see what happens in these countries and...but i believe it is not a convincing idea to export european or western museums worldwide. how a museum works in singapore or in brazil, it depends on the situation in these countries and, but internationally or globally, we have to rethink and to really find what a museum could be, and i think we can learn a lot from different types of museums, especially, for instance, somewhere in the favela in southern america, it's perhaps more influential on museums than the big, new building, iconic

design, whatever, somewhere. so you're not going to become a franchise. we're not going to see the humboldt shanghai or the humboldt... no. ..riyad. i think you cannot. i think it's very much based here in berlin. but what we want to do is to do something together with these museums, but not in a way of travelling exhibitions. i think this...the time is over that exhibitions travelling around the world, making money and so on. but what we really want to do is doing something together, learning something together, creating something new, which is for both partners or three or four partners, and experience at not only working with museums, museum to museum is one opportunity but, for instance, working with a community college somewhere in the us. it was a great, great experience for me because college students had a completely different approach what happens here in the collections and so you have a fabulous

temporary exhibition made together. all right. well, hartmut dorgerloh, it's been a pleasure to be in your institution. thank you for having me here in berlin. thank you so much for coming. hello. the weather over the weekend varied quite a bit from day to day, sunnier moments, cloudier moments, but we still managed to reach 22 celsius in kew gardens, making it the warm spot. how about monday? sunny spells in the forecast, scattered showers, too, but we're focusing on the dry weather, and indeed, it will be a mostly dry

day for many of us. now, on the satellite picture, there is a line of cloud across the uk, that is a weather front, it's been bringing rain. and early in the morning, it is going to be raining across east anglia, the south east and central southern england, as this weather front gradually moves towards the east. but behind it, a large area of high pressure is building in, and that means settled weather for many of us. so here's the forecast through the early hours. you can see where the cloud and the rain is. but even once the weather front clears away, still a few showers behind it. it will be on the nippy side across some parts of the country. temperatures in glasgow and edinburgh around four celsius, but in the southeast, around ten. so early in the morning, there will be some cloud and rain in the southeast. eventually that weather front clears away, and then it's a case of sunny spells and scattered showers maybe in northern ireland, scotland, northern england and further east as well. the temperatures pretty disappointing for this time in may, typically around about 13—14 celsius. and it will actually be quite chilly along the north sea coast,

where we'll have a keen breeze out of the north—northwest. high pressure very close by on tuesday. in fact, light winds expected across many western areas. it'll feel a little bit warmer. further north, though, showers are expected across scotland, northern england, certainly into yorkshire. temperatures recovering somewhat, especially where the winds are lighter out towards the west, perhaps as high as 17 celsius in belfast and also in cardiff. and then that high pressure is pretty much on top of us midweek, we've light winds, but i think variable amounts of cloud. now, if we look at the air mass map, and that's the temperature of the atmosphere, you can see these yellow colours and actually a drift of warmer weather from the south. so, yes, temperatures will recover a little bit as we head towards the end of the week. in fact, that's reflected in the forecast here until friday. you can see we're sort of generally in the high teens towards the end of the week. and from the weather icons, you can gather it is going to be a mostly dry week as well. bye— bye.

live from london. this is bbc news. too close to call — turkey likely headed to a run—off vote for president after the country's most closely—fought election in decades. the leaders of ukraine and france call for more sanctions against russia, as more tanks and armoured cars are promised for kyiv�*s fight. senior doctors in england to start voting on whether to strike over a pay dispute with national health service. and paddington bear's tea with the late-queen picks up the memorable moment gong at the bafta tv awards.