voice—over: this is bbc news. we'll have the headlines and all the main news stories for you at the top of the hour, straight after this programme. welcome to hardtalk, i'm stephen sackur. acting as the most precarious of professions and elation today can be followed by rejection tomorrow. the only certainty is uncertainty. it says much and then of the talent and resilience of my guest today

jane horrocks that her career has spanned four decades and has spanned four decades and has seen her excel on stage and screen. increasingly she's written and created her own shows, is that the pathway to empowerment in an industry where actors can be just another commodity? jane horrocks, welcome to hardtalk. jane horrocks, welcome to hardtalk— jane horrocks, welcome to hardtalk. ., ~ y c hardtalk. thank you very much. it is ureat hardtalk. thank you very much. it is great to _ hardtalk. thank you very much. it is great to have _ hardtalk. thank you very much. it is great to have you _ hardtalk. thank you very much. it is great to have you in - hardtalk. thank you very much. it is great to have you in the - it is great to have you in the studio. you have been in this business for almost four decades, i wonder when you

think about your own career, do you find that you very consciously shaped it or is it more a question of serendipity and stuff thatjust happened? i think there is a lot of both actually, yes. ithink think there is a lot of both actually, yes. i think i did engineer quite a lot of it in that my choices were very specific but certain things happened at a certain time that kind of formed it as well. find kind of formed it as well. and when you _ kind of formed it as well. and when you think _ kind of formed it as well. and when you think about the big choices, the key choices that you made that were instrumental in shaping your career, what would you .2? i in shaping your career, what would you .2?— in shaping your career, what would you .2? i think probably the biggest — would you .2? i think probably the biggest choice _ would you .2? i think probably the biggest choice that - would you .2? i think probably the biggest choice that a - would you .2? i think probably the biggest choice that a maid| the biggest choice that a maid was leaving the rsc. the royal shakespeare — was leaving the rsc. the royal shakespeare company? - was leaving the rsc. the royal shakespeare company? yes, i was leaving the rsc. the royal- shakespeare company? yes, which was my first _ shakespeare company? yes, which was my first job— shakespeare company? yes, which was my first job and _ shakespeare company? yes, which was my first job and they _ was my firstjob and they offered me another season and i thought i don't think i'm going to progress in this company in the same way they could possibly progress outside of it. . �* , , ,

it. that's very interesting because _ it. that's very interesting because for _ it. that's very interesting because for most - it. that's very interesting because for most young | it. that's very interesting - because for most young actors and you had been to akron three and you had been to akron three and then you —— raada. and then you went to the royal shakespeare company, you sort of way from shakespeare. i just of way from shakespeare. i 'ust think at that fl of way from shakespeare. i 'ust think at that time, i of way from shakespeare. i 'ust think at that time, being i of way from shakespeare. i “lat think at that time, being from a kind of working—class back round, i'djust a kind of working—class back round, i'd just didn't think, and the way i spoke and the way i was, that i was there fodder at that time, so it be working my way up in a very incremental sort of way rather than landing a fabulous part very early on. so a kind of thought actually it's not going to serve me right here right now.- it's not going to serve me right here right now. that is interesting _ right here right now. that is interesting because - right here right now. that is interesting because we - right here right now. that is| interesting because we have right here right now. that is - interesting because we have had other is on this show who have talked about the degree to

which they felt and sometimes still feel that at thing is a dominant the middle and upper middle class preserve and that working—class people who want to be at is, sometimes for example are told that their voice doesn't quite fit and they have to change it. that happened to you? it they have to change it. that happened to you?— happened to you? it did encourage _ happened to you? it did encourage me - happened to you? it did encourage me to - happened to you? it did | encourage me to mellow happened to you? it did - encourage me to mellow my accent at raada, as you can heari accent at raada, as you can hear i didn't take any notice of that and it has actually been my fortune, is my voice, it has been so much more beneficial than if they had lost it but i think that, i don't know, because i'm made that choice early on with the royal shakespeare company, because at that stage, i don't know anything about the royal shakespeare company now and i'm sure it's very, very different but when i was there, people who landed the big roles, very much had r p voices, but it could well be so different now.

i've not really experienced so much of that throughout the rest of my career because the choices that i've made and the direct is that i have worked with. ., , ., direct is that i have worked with. ., ., , with. one of your early breakthroughs - with. one of your early breakthroughs was - with. one of your early - breakthroughs was working with mike lee, a director that we have actually spoken to on this programme. mike lee is known for his gritty, spontaneous, naturalistic movies. you were in life is sweet when actually you are still very young, when you? you are still very young, when ou? , ~ you are still very young, when ou? , ,, ., , you are still very young, when ou? , ,, you? yes, i think was about 27 and like that. _ you? yes, i think was about 27 and like that. would _ you? yes, i think was about 27 and like that. would you - you? yes, i think was about 27 and like that. would you say i and like that. would you say that that was _ and like that. would you say that that was a _ and like that. would you say that that was a formative . that that was a formative experience in the way he worked and what he expect it of you? yes, the tools that he gives you and the method that he uses, i'd still use a lot of those things now and just creating a character and the basis of a character, it was just a brilliant, relent masterclass for me in how to

work. so i'm hugely grateful to mike that he did ask me to do that film, because it was a really wonderful experience and one that a lot of his would love to have, to create a carrot from scratch with his guidance, it wasjust guidance, it was just wonderful. guidance, it was 'ust wonderful.�* guidance, it was 'ust wonderful. �* ., , wonderful. and the other hugely influential person _ wonderful. and the other hugely influential person in _ wonderful. and the other hugely influential person in your- wonderful. and the other hugely influential person in your life - influential person in your life around the same time wasjim cartwright, the writer who came up cartwright, the writer who came up with a play, the rise and fall of little voice which i think i'm right in saying was pretty much in mind to take the lead? ., �* , pretty much in mind to take the lead? . �*, , , lead? that's right, because i did has first _ lead? that's right, because i did has first play _ lead? that's right, because i did has first play at - lead? that's right, because i did has first play at the - lead? that's right, because i| did has first play at the royal court and we became friends thereafter the, and he discovered in my back garden that i could do impersonations. you mean, singing impersonations? you mean, singing imersonations? . , impersonations? yeah, singing impersonations _ impersonations? yeah, singing

impersonations and _ impersonations? yeah, singing impersonations and he - impersonations? yeah, singing impersonations and he said - impersonations? yeah, singing impersonations and he said i i impersonations and he said i will write a play about that and i did any more of it and two years later he said here is the place. 50 two years later he said here is the place-— two years later he said here is the lace. ., the place. so who could you do? all the people _ the place. so who could you do? all the people that _ the place. so who could you do? all the people that i _ the place. so who could you do? all the people that i did - the place. so who could you do? all the people that i did in - all the people that i did in the film of little voice. i did edith p f and the play but it was kind of the only difference. i could tojulie andrews, barbra streisand but they weren't included in the piece. i they weren't included in the iece. , ., ., . piece. i 'ust wonder how much when piece. i just wonder how much when jim _ piece. i just wonder how much when jim was _ piece. i just wonder how much when jim was writing - piece. i just wonder how much when jim was writing as - piece. i just wonder how much when jim was writing as he - piece. i just wonder how much | when jim was writing as he fed whenjim was writing as he fed into you, your personality at the time. the story of this girl who was brought up in scarborough somewhere in the north of england. it scarborough somewhere in the north of england.— north of england. it was set in scarborough. _ north of england. it was set in scarborough, so _ north of england. it was set in scarborough, so yes. - north of england. it was set in scarborough, so yes. and - north of england. it was set in scarborough, so yes. and she| north of england. it was set in l scarborough, so yes. and she is kind of damaged, _ scarborough, so yes. and she is kind of damaged, she _ scarborough, so yes. and she is kind of damaged, she said - scarborough, so yes. and she is kind of damaged, she said a - kind of damaged, she said a very difficult upbringing, difficult relationship with her mother, she's lost her father, she is almost reclusive, spends most her time in her bedroom but she has this gift, this incredible talent for singing and for mimicking some of the great singing stars, and there

is a sort of vulnerability and a shyness to her as well as a gift. do you think there was a vulnerability in shyness to you at the time? i vulnerability in shyness to you at the time?— at the time? i think has certainly _ at the time? i think has certainly had _ at the time? i think has certainly had that - at the time? i think has certainly had that when | at the time? i think has| certainly had that when i at the time? i think has - certainly had that when i was growing up and i would hide behind my impersonations and they were a way of coping at school, they kind of, i went to quite a tough school and they were, being a clown and doing impersonations were my survival techniques. so they were helpful and yeah, i was relatively shy. you wouldn't think so now but i was shy. you wouldn't think— think so now but i was shy. you wouldn't think of _ think so now but i was shy. you wouldn't think of someone who was relatively shy, they would have an impulse to perform and go on the stage and be so exposed, somehow you combined the both. i exposed, somehow you combined the both. ~ ., exposed, somehow you combined the both. ~' ., ., ., the both. i think with a lot of actors, the both. i think with a lot of actors. it's — the both. i think with a lot of actors. it's a _ the both. i think with a lot of actors, it's a lack— the both. i think with a lot of actors, it's a lack of- the both. i think with a lot of actors, it's a lack of comfort | actors, it's a lack of comfort in oneself which is why we become actors in that we are

not sure about who we are as people and therefore it is so much easier hiding behind somebody else's persona. that was definitely the case for me. it actually prompts me to say let's take a look at a scene from the movie, it'sjust called little voice, the movie, it came out a few years after the smash hit west end play but they wanted you again to play they wanted you again to play the lead so we're going to look at a clip which is the first time you are persuaded by this agent who works with you, persuaded finally, despite your shyness and your reserve, to actually go onto a stage and show what you can do, so let's take a look. # the manager walked in the

joint, i could see you were a man of # a real big spender # say, wouldn't you like to know what's going on in my mind? # so let me get right to the point. # i don't pop my cork for every man i see. # hey big spender # hey, big spender # hey big spender! # spend a little time with me.- little time with me. wow! i think you _ little time with me. wow! i think you out _ little time with me. wow! i think you out surely - little time with me. wow! i think you out surely beth l think you out surely beth shirley bassey they're. it is a fantastic performance and people spotted some very familiar faces people spotted some very familiarfaces including michael cane. you have described that is pretty much the perfect part for you. it's a bit of a cliche but do you

think it's sort of change your life in a way? i think it's sort of change your life in a way?— life in a way? i don't know whether— life in a way? i don't know whether it _ life in a way? i don't know whether it did _ life in a way? i don't know whether it did or - life in a way? i don't know whether it did or not. - life in a way? i don't know whether it did or not. i'd l life in a way? i don't know - whether it did or not. i'd done quite a number of things before that but maybe doing the play did sort of semite change my life in that other things were happening that time and then the play of little voice i was offered other things, people became much more aware of the after that film but whether it changed my life, i don't know. it made you much more famous, for a start and then it led to other things, for example you got involved with one of the most successful situation comedies in the uk, around the same time and that went on for years, it was absolutely fabulous in which you had a very funny part. it was you as a complete airhead, a very silly girl called bubble butt

that made you a very familiar face and arejust that made you a very familiar face and are just wonder whether you were comfortable with coming a nationalfigure? yes and it didn't happen the same time, at a very similar time little voice the play and add fab the tv series. so i think when you do a tv series that has got such attention, that has got such attention, thatis that has got such attention, that is when you get your wrecking ocean, really. so i think they probably get more recognition from ab fab than little voice.— little voice. which is strange in a way because _ little voice. which is strange in a way because it's - little voice. which is strange in a way because it's a - little voice. which is strange in a way because it's a much richer, deeper performance and whole sort of atmosphere to little voice.— whole sort of atmosphere to little voice. ~ ., ., , ., ., little voice. what do you mean? bubble little voice. what do you mean? ituhble was _ little voice. what do you mean? bubble was deep _ bubble was deep laughter she was hilarious, whether she was deep as a question. is it that you don't mind and you live with because it's natural that television does sort of dominate. when people identify you as oh, i know that phase, i

know who she is, it's often on the tally rather than the theatre. the tally rather than the theatre-— the tally rather than the theatre. , . , ., , theatre. yes and it is often my voice. sometimes _ theatre. yes and it is often my voice. sometimes they - theatre. yes and it is often my voice. sometimes they can - theatre. yes and it is often my j voice. sometimes they can get away with not being recognised but as soon as i open my mouth they go, oh, i know who you are. but yes, television is a much more immediate, isn't it? a wonder about absolutely fabulous, do you think it could get made today? people watching and listening to don't know it, it is a very funny comedy based on women who behave very badly. drink is taken, drugs are sometimes taken and alluded to and basically these are women with very un— politically correct lives and views. these days there is such a focus on not offending, on content that text various boxes, do you think that kind of show would get made?— think that kind of show would aet made? ., ~ get made? yeah, i think there would be _ get made? yeah, i think there would be much _ get made? yeah, i think there would be much more - get made? yeah, i think there would be much more of- get made? yeah, i think there would be much more of a - would be much more of a struggle. jennifer saunders was left very much to her own

devices at the time, and sort of often came up with things last minute so there wasn't the interference that there is now interference that there is now in making a piece of television in making a piece of television in that sort of producers were not on her back all the time, she was able to just get on with it. but as far as politically correct things, she would be restrained.- politically correct things, she would be restrained. does that worry you _ would be restrained. does that worry you or — would be restrained. does that worry you or set— would be restrained. does that worry you or set a _ would be restrained. does that worry you or set a new? - would be restrained. does that worry you or set a new? i - would be restrained. does thatj worry you or set a new? i don't think that, — worry you or set a new? i don't think that, because _ worry you or set a new? i don't think that, because it - worry you or set a new? i don't think that, because it was - worry you or set a new? i don't| think that, because it was done with such humour and because you had the saffy character who was politically correct, she was politically correct, she was the sensible one so she was always, you know, the character of edina whichjennifer played was always being checked by the saffy character so there was a balance in their that, so if it was done today and she was politically incorrect as the character edina then she would

have been always pulled up for it by the character of saffy. i just think it came at a brilliant time in that we'd had men behaving badly and then jennifer did her women behaving badly and it was just women absolutely loved it. men loved it as well but particularly women because it represented them in that light as well that actually, women can be a bit naughty too. actually, women can be a bit naughty too-— naughty too. thinking about chan . in: naughty too. thinking about changing cultural _ naughty too. thinking about changing cultural times - naughty too. thinking about - changing cultural times because that was a huge hit in the 90s and reprised with a movie and everything else, going back to the 90s, and the intervening 30 orso the 90s, and the intervening 30 or so years, a lot has changed and one thing that has changed is everything that goes with the consciousness of the me to movement and an awareness of abusive behaviour, of misogyny and deep sexism in the entertainment business. 0bviously entertainment business. obviously as a woman who has beenin obviously as a woman who has been in the business through that, do you feel it has changed a great deal? it has

definitely — changed a great deal? it has definitely benefited - changed a great deal? it has definitely benefited it, - changed a great deal? it has definitely benefited it, and l changed a great deal? it has| definitely benefited it, and it was a big movement, me too and it felt like too much at the time, but it was absolutely right that it was too much. and sort of people were speaking up, and... i sort of people were speaking up. and- - -— sort of people were speaking up, and... i wonder where you were at the — up, and... i wonder where you were at the time, _ up, and... i wonder where you were at the time, 2017, - up, and... i wonder where you were at the time, 2017, there | were at the time, 2017, there was a seminal moment on twitter when the american act first alyssa milano posted this, of all the women in this industry who have been sexually harassed or assaulted wrote me to as their status, then we might give people a sense of the magnitude of this problem. we you actively thinking by i'm me too i can say metoo. definitely, definitely, we were, our generation of actors were, our generation of actors werejust brought up were, our generation of actors were just brought up that we just swallowed it, wejust thought this is part of the

business, you just had to put up business, you just had to put up with it, i'm not talking extreme cases of sexual harassment i'm not talking rape, but kind of, remark, you just or light pitting, he thought well, this isjust standard and we have to live with it that's why i'm saying in the metoo movement did happen it seemed a little extreme for possibly people of my generation of actors because we had put up with it for so long. but then thinking about it, gosh, this is really relevant, it is such a brilliant thing that has happened, and it has made life so much easierfor happened, and it has made life so much easier for people, happened, and it has made life so much easierfor people, in that conditions have changed in theatres, and that you have somebody you can speak to if anything like that happens, it's not covered up, you can speak openly about things, and that has made a huge

difference.— that has made a huge difference. �* , ., difference. but, in terms of basic questions _ difference. but, in terms of basic questions of - difference. but, in terms of basic questions of any - difference. but, in terms of. basic questions of any quality and maybe even residual misogyny in the acting profession, there are still big questions about, for example, the roles that are available to women, as they age. and i know you have engaged with that, you signed a joint letter not that long ago, 100 leading women in the entertainment business saying there should be much more gender equality when it comes to the roles written for performers. do you think things have changed? i performers. do you think things have changed?— have changed? i think they are chanauin have changed? i think they are changing slowly _ have changed? i think they are changing slowly and _ have changed? i think they are changing slowly and i - have changed? i think they are changing slowly and i do - have changed? i think they are changing slowly and i do think| changing slowly and i do think feels like it's coming more into our time that women, there are more, vera, very popular detective series. sally

wainwright's writing is for women and there have been fleabag, i may destroy you written by women and performed by women, very strong pieces as well. , , , , , well. this pledge use signed up to i don't know _ well. this pledge use signed up to i don't know if _ well. this pledge use signed up to i don't know if you _ well. this pledge use signed up to i don't know if you feel - to i don't know if you feel today, two days and demand young actress tomorrow's unemployed middle—aged actress. as it is causative is that, as it is inevitable is that? i have created a lot of my own work. in the parts i have been offered i have, a lot of parts i have been offered which i have turned down i have not been that interested in. you might get a generic woman role, a mother, or not the mothers can't be interesting, but not very interesting mother that is just kind of in the periphery.

and, that are still definitely the case. i5 and, that are still definitely the case-— the case. is that one key reason — the case. is that one key reason you _ the case. is that one key reason you say, - the case. is that one key reason you say, i - the case. is that one key reason you say, i have i the case. is that one key - reason you say, i have taken to writing and i've done a lot of my own work, generating stuff you can then perform for yourself? it is a form of proactive creation of roles that may be women should feel confident enough to do in ways perhaps some don't at the moment?— perhaps some don't at the moment? , . , ., , ., moment? yes, it was as relevant when i moment? yes, it was as relevant when i was _ moment? yes, it was as relevant when i was at _ moment? yes, it was as relevant when i was at the _ moment? yes, it was as relevant when i was at the rsc _ moment? yes, it was as relevant when i was at the rsc all - moment? yes, it was as relevant when i was at the rsc all those l when i was at the rsc all those years ago, the royal shakespeare company, i remember meeting withjuliet stevenson, lindsay duncan, the owner sure, speaking out about the lack of roles for women, and because they were young then as well, but i was so young, i thought what are they talking about. and i totally did not understand that then because i

have got my whole career ahead of me and there will be loads and loads of roles, but certainly when i did turned 40, i thought, i get what they were talking about.— talking about. there is another intri . uinu talking about. there is another intriguing discussion _ talking about. there is another intriguing discussion right - talking about. there is another intriguing discussion right now| intriguing discussion right now that seems to be potentially restricts the kinds of roles actors can do, that is the one about in the word is used authenticity. to be very simplistic about it it boils down to the idea that for example if you are playing a 93v example if you are playing a gay character, you really ought to have a gay actor doing that to have a gay actor doing that to give extra meaning and insight they can bring, and whether it might be a disabled part, that should be played by a disabled actor rather than famously many years ago daniel day lewis playing a man with cerebral palsy. what's your feeling about that? i cerebral palsy. what's your feeling about that?- feeling about that? i think it's good. _ feeling about that? i think it's good. i _ feeling about that? i think it's good, i think - feeling about that? i think it's good, i think a - feeling about that? i think it's good, i think a good . feeling about that? i think. it's good, i think a good thing that's happening.— it's good, i think a good thing that's happening. doesn't that restrict your — that's happening. doesn't that restrict your range _ that's happening. doesn't that restrict your range as - that's happening. doesn't that restrict your range as an - restrict your range as an actor? i restrict your range as an actor? ., �* ~ ., restrict your range as an | actor?_ isn't restrict your range as an - actor?_ isn't that actor? i don't know. isn't that the point _ actor? i don't know. isn't that the point of — actor? i don't know. isn't that the point of acting _ actor? i don't know. isn't that the point of acting that - actor? i don't know. isn't that the point of acting that you i the point of acting that you can use your talent and

imagination to put yourselves in other people's shoes, certainly cate blanchett another leading female actor she says absolutely i have a right to play the role of a lesbian, because that's my gift, my skill, i can do it and i'm an actor.— i'm an actor. but i think if ou i'm an actor. but i think if you have _ i'm an actor. but i think if you have a _ i'm an actor. but i think if you have a woman - i'm an actor. but i think if you have a woman who i i'm an actor. but i think if you have a woman who is| i'm an actor. but i think if. you have a woman who is a lesbian, why can't she play it. in the end that should matter? in the end that should matter? i think so, because they completely understand it and can bring something to the role that somebody who is in queer or gay can bring to the role. no, i think it's a good thing, it changes, changes always such a good thing and it has given people the chance to haven't been given a chance. and why not? i think i don't have any issue with that.— issue with that. can i end where i began _ issue with that. can i end where i began talking - issue with that. can i end i where i began talking about issue with that. can i end - where i began talking about the extent to which an actor can

shape a career. you are still very busy, how do you want to shape the next phase of your career, will it be very much about writing your own work? i am always open to anything really, i'm curious, so it's common intriguing what's going to come up any, and i don't put any blocks in front of that and i don't have any ambition i want to do this, i want to do that by the time i'm what age. but i would like to carry on creating and collaborating with others because i've got such a great deal of pleasure from doing that and it feels incredibly satisfying, in the way that it did all those years with likely because that felt like a proper collaboration, when you are creating something from scratch, that is what really thrills me, working with something from scratch. will you sing again? i would like to do, i went on a very direction — different direction recently little voice was representative

of my love of those old singers, but then i was drawn towards singers of my youth, postpunk, that movement and did a about that and i really loved doing that and i loved working with musicians, and, yes, i think to work with, yes, unusual musicians and just something that would challenge me in a different way, rather than being in a musical which i have no interest in whatsoever. so it would have to be something very left—field. that's a great thought to end on. jane horrocks, thank you for being on hardtalk.

hello there. for the rest of this week, the weather's looking pretty quiet. that's because we've got high pressure dominating the scene. so a lot of dry weather around with some sunshine, too. a few showers around mainly to the north of the uk. and after a bit of a cool start to this week, temperatures will begin to climb slightly by the end of the week and into next weekend. now, the early part of tuesday looks largely dry. clearskies, quite a chilly start to the day. we'll see thicker clouds, more of a breeze, some rainjust getting into the north and west of scotland. temperatures recovering here, nine degrees in stornoway, but a chilly start to tuesday for many areas. now, high pressure sitting almost on top of the uk. we have this weak weather front bringing more clouds and showers to scotland. and you'll notice that blue tinge on the air mass chart indicating there's still some fairly cool air around for tuesday. so, it's a chilly start. dry, bright, lots

of sunshine around. showers from the word go across northwest scotland. these become more widespread across scotland into the afternoon. some showers for northern ireland, a few for northern and eastern england. probably the dry, sunniest weather will be across wales, midlands down into the southwest and here we could make 16 or 17 degrees. but again, for most, it's the low—to—mid teens. that is below par for the time of year. through tuesday night, many of those showers fade away. most places once again will be dry to start a wednesday variable cloud, but widespread clear skies certainly in the north and the west. and again, temperatures taking a bit of a tumble and single digits for most. high pressure, almost slap bang on top of the uk for wednesday. lighter winds. this feature, though, will start to bring more cloud, breeze, outbreaks of rain to the northwest of scotland, but that is about it. plenty of sunshine around, could just see a few isolated showers across the midlands and eastern england. but many places will stay dry and the temperatures creeping up a little bit. we could be up to 18, maybe 19 degrees in the warmest spots.

0therwise, again, for most it's the mid—teens, particularly towards the north. as we move through thursday, friday, high pressure still holds on. a few weather fronts flirt with the north of the uk and you'll notice we start to import some slightly warmer air from the west, the orange and yellow colours taking over. so apart from a few showers across the north of the uk, thanks to those weather fronts, you can see — because of high pressure — it's mostly dry and it'll be feeling warmer with temperatures hitting the low 20s.

live from london, this is bbc news. ukraine's capital, kyiv, has come under heavy fire from missiles and drone attacks during the night. authorities investigate the cause of a hostel fire in new zealand, which has killed six people and left others missing. the fbi criticised over the way it investigated allegations of collusion between donald trump's 2016 presidential campaign and russia. and top british surfers call on surf industry manufacturers to do more to make the sport sustainable.

hello. i'm sally bundock. welcome to the programme.