welcome to hardtalk, i'm stephen sackur. acting is the most precarious of professions. adulation today can be followed by rejection tomorrow. the only certainty is uncertainty. it says much then of the talent and resilience of my guest today,

jane horrocks, that her acting career has spanned four decades and has seen her excel on stage and screen from comedies to musicals. increasingly, she's written and created her own shows, is that the pathway to empowerment in an industry where actors can be just another commodity? jane horrocks, welcome to hardtalk. thank you very much. it is great to have you in the studio. you have been in this acting business for almost four decades, i wonder when you think about your own career, do you feel that you very

consciously shaped it or is it more a question of serendipity and stuff thatjust happened? i think there is a lot of both actually, yes. i think i did engineer quite a lot of it in that my choices were very specific but certain things happened at a certain time that kind of formed it as well. and when you think about the big choices, the key choices that you made that were instrumental in shaping your career, what would you point to? i think probably the biggest choice that i made was leaving the rsc. the royal shakespeare company? yes, which was my firstjob and they offered me another season and i thought actually, i don't think i'm going to progress in this company in the same way i could possibly progress outside of it. that's very interesting because for most young actors, and you had been to rada,

a very famous drama school, and then you'd gotten into the royal shakespeare company, which most young actors would just regard as the best, biggest break, you sort of walked away from shakespeare. i just think at that time, being from a kind of working—class background, ijust didn't think, and the way i spoke and the way i was, that i was their fodder at that time, so i'd be working my way up in a very incremental sort of way rather than landing a fabulous part very early on. so, i kind of thought actually it's not going to serve me right here right now. that is interesting cos we have had other actors on this show who have talked

about the degree to which they felt and sometimes still feel that they felt acting is a predominantly middle and upper middle class preserve and that working—class people who want to be actors, sometimes for example are told that their voice doesn't quite fit and they have to change it. did that happen to you? they did encourage me to mellow my accent at rada, as you can hear, i didn't take any notice of that. and it has actually been my fortune, is my voice, it has been so much more beneficial than if i had lost it but i think that, i don't know, because i made that choice early on with the royal shakespeare company, because at that stage, i don't know anything about the royal shakespeare company now and i'm sure it's very, very different but when i was there, people who landed the big roles, very much had rp voices, but it could well be so different now.

i've not really experienced so much of that throughout the rest of my career because the choices that i've made and the directors that i have worked with. one of your early breakthroughs was working with mike lee, a director that we have actually spoken to on this programme. mike lee is known for his gritty, spontaneous, naturalistic movies. you were in life is sweet when actually you are still very young, weren't you? yes, i think was about 27 or something like that. would you say that that was a formative experience in the way he worked and what he expected of you? yes, the tools that he gives you and the method that he uses, i still use a lot of those things now and just creating a character and the basis of a character, it was just a brilliant masterclass for me in how to work. so, i'm hugely grateful to mike

that he did ask me to do that film, because it was a really wonderful experience and one that a lot of actors would love to have, to create a character from scratch with his guidance, it wasjust wonderful. and the other hugely influential person in your life around the same time wasjim cartwright, the writer who came up with a play, the rise and fall of littlevoice which i think i'm right in saying was pretty much written with you in mind to take the lead? that's right, because i did his first play at the royal court and we became friends thereafter, and he discovered in my back garden that i could do impersonations. you mean, singing impersonations? yeah, singing impersonations and he said i will write a play

about that and i didn't think any more of it and two years later he said here is the play. so who could you do? all the people that i did in the film of littlevoice. i did edith piaf in the play but that was kind of the only difference. i could tojulie andrews, barbra streisand but they weren't included in the piece. ijust wonder how much whenjim was writing this, he fed into you, your personality at the time. the story is of this girl who was brought up in scarborough, somewhere in the north of england. it was set in scarborough, so yes. and she is kind of damaged, she's had a very difficult upbringing, difficult relationship with her mother, she's lost her father, she is almost reclusive, spends most her time in her bedroom but she has this gift, this incredible talent for singing and for mimicking some of the great singing stars, and there is a sort of vulnerability and a shyness to her as well as a

gift. do you think there was a vulnerability and shyness to you at the time? i think has certainly had that when i was growing up and i would hide behind my impersonations and they were a way of coping at school, they kind of, i went to quite a tough school and they were, being a clown and doing impersonations were my survival techniques. so, they were helpful and yeah, i was relatively shy. you wouldn't think so now but i was shy. you wouldn't think of someone who was relatively shy, they would have an impulse to perform and go on the stage and be so exposed, somehow you combined the both. i think with a lot of actors, it's a lack of comfort in oneself which is why we become actors in that we are not sure

about who we are as people and therefore, it is so much easier hiding behind somebody else�*s persona. that was definitely the case for me. it actually prompts me to say let's take a look at a scene from the movie, it's just called littlevoice, the movie, it came out a few years after the smash hit west end play but they wanted you again to play the lead so we're going to look at a clip which is the first time you are persuaded by this agent who works with you, persuaded finally, despite your shyness and your reserve, to actually go onto a stage and show what you can do. so, let's take a look. # the manager walked in thejoint, i could see # you were a man of

# a real big spender # say, wouldn't you like to know what's going on in my mind? # so, let me get right to the point. # i don't pop my cork for every man i see. # hey, big spender # . hey, b|g spender! # spend a little time with me.# wow! i think you out surely beth shirley bassey they're. beth shirley bassey there. it is a fantastic performance and people spotted some very familiarfaces including michael cane. you have described that is pretty much the perfect part for you. it's a bit of a cliche but do you think it's sort of change

your life in a way? i don't know whether it did or not. i'd done quite a number of things before that but maybe doing the play did sort of semite that but maybe doing the play did sort of semi—change my life in that other things were happening that time and then the play of little voice i was offered other things, people became much more aware of the after that film but whether it changed my life, i don't know. it made you much more famous, for a start and then it led to other things, for example you got involved with one of the most successful situation comedies in the uk, around the same time and that went on for years, it was absolutely fabulous in which you had a very funny part. it was you as a complete airhead, a very silly girl called bubble.

but that made you a very familiar face and are just wonder whether you were comfortable with becoming a nationalfigure? yes and it didn't happen the same time, at a very similartime, little voice the play and ab fab the tv series. so, i think when you do a tv series that has got such attention, that is when you get your recognition, really. so i think they probably get more recognition from ab fab than little voice. which is strange in a way because it's a much richer, deeper performance and whole sort of atmosphere to little voice. what do you mean? bubble was deep laughter she was hilarious, whether she was deep was the question. is it that you don't mind and you live with because it's natural that television does sort of dominate.

when people identify you as oh, i know that phase, i know who she is, it's often on the telly rather than the theatre. yes and it is often my voice. sometimes they can get away with not being recognised. but as soon as i open my mouth they go, oh, i know who you are. but yes, television is a much more immediate, isn't it? i wonder about absolutely fabulous, do you think it could be written today? basically, these women with very un—politically correct lives and views, these days, there is such a focus on not offending on content that takes various boxes. do you think the thing that can actually get made? it think the thing that can actually aet made? ., , think the thing that can actually get made?— think the thing that can actually aet made? ., , . ., ., ., get made? it would be much more of a stru: ule. get made? it would be much more of a struggle- jennifer _ get made? it would be much more of a struggle. jennifer saunders _ get made? it would be much more of a struggle. jennifer saunders was - get made? it would be much more of a struggle. jennifer saunders was led - struggle. jennifer saunders was led

very much left to or her own devices, not caring for things in the last minute, there was not interference that there is now in making a piece of television. and producers were not on her back all the time she was able to get on with that. but as far as politically correct things, she would be restrained.— correct things, she would be restrained. , ., ., , restrained. does that word is said and ou? restrained. does that word is said and you? it _ restrained. does that word is said and you? it was — restrained. does that word is said and you? it was done _ restrained. does that word is said and you? it was done with - restrained. does that word is said and you? it was done with such i and you? it was done with such humour and — and you? it was done with such humour and you _ and you? it was done with such humour and you have - and you? it was done with such humour and you have the - and you? it was done with such - humour and you have the character that was brilliantly played who was politically correct. she was the sensible one. the character who jennifer played was always being checked by the other character so, there was a balance in their interview was done today and she was politically incorrect as a

character, then she would've been always pulled up forward by the character of sassy. i just think it came at a brilliant time we had been behaving badly and jennifer had women behaving badly. women absolutely loved it, men loved it as well but particularly women because it represented them in that light is that actually, women can be 92. that actually, women can be naughty too. thinking about changing cultural times because that was a huge hit in the 90s and reprised with a movie and everything else, going back to the 90s, and the intervening 30 or so years, a lot has changed and one thing that has changed is everything that goes with the consciousness of the me too movement and an awareness of abusive behaviour, of misogyny and deep sexism in the entertainment business. obviously, as a woman who has been in the business through that, do you feel it has changed a great deal? it has definitely

benefited it, and it was a big movement, me too and it felt like too much at the time, but it was absolutely right that it was too much. and, sort of, people were speaking up, and... i wonder where you were at the time, 2017, there was a seminal moment on twitter when the american act first when the american actress first alyssa milano posted this, of all the women in this industry who have been sexually harassed or assaulted wrote me too as their status, then we might give people a sense of the magnitude of this problem. were you actively thinking by i'm metoo i can say metoo. definitely, definitely. we were, our generation of actors were just brought up that we just swallowed it, we just thought this is part of the business, you just had to put

up with it. i'm not talking extreme cases of sexual harassment or i'm not talking rape, but kind of, remarks, you just, or light petting, you thought well, this is just standard and we have to live with it. that's why i'm saying in the metoo movement did happen, it seemed a little extreme for possibly people of my generation of actors because we had put up with it for so long. but then thinking about it, gosh, this is really relevant, it is such a brilliant thing that has happened, and it has made life so much easier for people, in that conditions have changed in theatres, and that you have somebody you can speak to if anything like that happens. it's not covered up, you can speak openly about things, and that has made a huge difference.

but, in terms of basic questions of inequality and maybe even residual misogyny in the acting profession, there are still big questions about, for example, the roles that are available to women, as they age. and i know you have engaged with that, you signed a joint letter not that long ago, of 100 leading women in the entertainment business saying there should be much more gender equality when it comes to the roles written for performers. do you think things have changed? i think they are changing slowly and i do think it feels like it's coming more into our time that women, there are more, i mean happy valley. very popular detective series, written by a woman. and i think that's changed things massively. sally wainwright's writing is so pro women and there has been fleabag, i may destroy you

written by women and performed by women, very strong pieces as well. but this pledge you signed up to, i don't know if you feel today, "today's in demand young actress is tomorrow's unemployed middle—aged actress." is it as causative is that, is it as inevitable is that? i mean, you've still got plenty of work? i have created a lot of my own work. and the parts i have been offered i have, a lot of parts i have been offered which i have turned down i have not been that interested in. you might get a generic woman role, a mother, or not the mothers can't be interesting, a mother, or not that mothers can't be interesting,

but not very interesting mother that is just kind of in the periphery. and, that is still definitely the case. is that one key reason you say, i have taken to writing and i've done a lot of my own work, generating stuff you can then perform for yourself? it is a form of proactive creation of roles that may be women should feel confident enough to do in ways perhaps some don't at the moment? yes, it was as relevant when i was at the rsc all those years ago, the royal shakespeare company, i remember meeting withjuliet stevenson, lindsay duncan, fiona shore, speaking out about the lack of roles for women, and because they were young then as well, but i was so young, i thought what are they talking about. and i totally did not understand that then because i have got my whole career ahead

of me and there will be loads and loads of roles, but certainly when i did turned 40, i thought, i get what they were talking about. there is another intriguing discussion right now that seems to me potentially restricts the kinds of roles actors can do, that is the one about in the word is used authenticity. to be very simplistic about it, it boils down to the idea that for example if you are playing a gay character, you really ought to have a gay actor doing that to give extra meaning and insight they can bring, and whether it might be a disabled part, that should be played by a disabled actor rather than famously many years ago daniel day lewis playing a man with cerebral palsy. what's your feeling about that? i think it's good, i think it's a good thing that's happening. doesn't that restrict your range as an actor? i don't know. isn't that the point of acting that you can use your talent and imagination to put yourselves in other

people's shoes. certainly cate blanchett. another leading female actor she says absolutely i have a right to play the role of a lesbian, because that's my gift, my skill, i can do it and i'm an actor. but i think if you have a woman who is a lesbian, why can't she play it? in the end, that should matter? i think so, because they completely understand it and can bring something to the role that somebody who isn't queer or gay can bring to the role. no, i think it's a good thing, it changes, change is always such a good thing and it has given people the chance who haven't been given a chance. and why not? i think i don't have any issue with that. can i end where i began talking about the extent to which an actor can shape a career. you are still very busy,

how do you want to shape the next phase of your career, will it be very much about writing your own work? i am always open to anything really, i'm curious, so it's common intriguing what's going to come up any, and i don't put any blocks in front of that and i don't have any ambition i want to do this, i want to do that by the time i'm what age. but i would like to carry on creating and collaborating with others because i've got such a great deal of pleasure from doing that and it feels incredibly satisfying, in the way that it did all those years with mike lee because that felt like a proper collaboration, when you are creating something from scratch, that is what really thrills me, working with something from scratch. will you sing again? i would like to do, i went on a very direction — different direction recently little voice was representative of my love of those old singers, but then

i was drawn towards singers of my youth, postpunk, that movement and did a about that and i really loved doing that and i loved working with musicians, and, yes, ithink to work with, yes, unusual musicians and just something that would challenge me in a different way, rather than being in a musical which i have no interest in whatsoever. so it would have to be something very left—field. that's a great thought to end on. jane horrocks, thank you for being on hardtalk.

hello there. looks like high pressure will continue to bring a lot of fine and settled weather to the country for the rest of this week and into the weekend. temperatures will be climbing slightly, particularly where we have the sunshine. that said, there'll still be a few showers around and outbreaks of rain around the area of high pressure. so, this weather front will be bringing some wet weather to the north of scotland throughout the day on wednesday. now, the blue tinge is fading away for wednesday. we're starting to import that yellow and orange colour, so, the temperature's climbing a little bit. so in the sunny spots, it'll feel very pleasant through the afternoon, but it starts off chilly. lots of sunshine. then the clouds build again. showers, this time, affecting the southern half of britain. further north, it'll

be dry, some sunshine. but north highlands, the northern hour, some heavy and persistent rain here with a stronger breeze, feeling quite cool. but elsewhere again, it's the mid to high teens. and then through wednesday night, the showers fade away. many places will be dry. we'll see variable amounts of cloud around, probably more cloud around, i think wednesday night and what we've had the recent night. so, that should stop temperatures in falling much below five to nine celsius. so, a little bit milder. so, here's the picture for thursday. high pressure bringing a lot of dry weather for most. this weather front, though, another weather front will start to push into western scotland and northern ireland through the day. so here, cloudier, breezy with some splashes of rain east in scotland, england and wales. the best of the sunny spells though. we will see some showers developing

across southern and eastern england and we could see more cloud around, i think, into the afternoon. temperature wise, though, in the brightest spots, again, the high teens, the mid—teens, though further north, that weather from pushes its way eastwards to bring a band of cloud and showers across england and wales for friday. so, a bit ofa mixed bag, i think to end the working week. some sunny spells around, variable cloud, but also some showers. thanks to this weakening weather fronts, particularly across england and wales and the odd one could be on the heavy side. in the sunshine, then temperatures again 17 or 18 degrees, but with more cloud around then i think it won't be quite as warm on friday than what we'll see on thursday. into the weekend with high pressure dominating the scene for most. and it's going to be mainly dry, and settled once again with some good sunny spells. but weather fronts flirting with the north of the uk will, at times, bring thicker cloud, maybe some spots of rain to scotland and northern ireland. best the sunshine, england and wales. and we could be into the low 20s in warmer spots.

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