voice—over: this is bbc news. we'll have the headlines and all the main news stories for you at the top of the hour, straight after this programme. welcome to hardtalk, i'm stephen sackur. acting is the most precarious of professions. adulation today can be followed by rejection tomorrow. the only certainty is uncertainty. it says much then of the talent and resilience of my guest today, jane horrocks, that her acting career has

spanned four decades and has seen her excel on stage and screen from comedies to musicals. increasingly, she's written and created her own shows, is that the pathway to empowerment in an industry where actors can be just another commodity? jane horrocks, welcome to hardtalk. thank you very much. it is great to have you in the studio. you have been in this acting business for almost four decades. i wonder when you think about your own career, do you feel that you very

consciously shaped it or is it more a question of serendipity and stuff thatjust happened? i think there is a lot of both actually, yes. i think i did engineer quite a lot of it in that my choices were very specific but certain things happened at a certain time that kind of formed it as well. and when you think about the big choices, the key choices, that you made that were instrumental in shaping your career, what would you point to? i think probably the biggest choice that i made was leaving the rsc. the royal shakespeare company? yes, which was my firstjob and they offered me another season and i thought, actually, i don't think i'm going to progress in this company in the same way i could possibly progress outside of it. that's very interesting because for most young actors,

and you had been to rada, the very famous drama school, and then you'd gotten into the rsc, which most young actors would just regard as the best, biggest break, you sort of walked away from shakespeare. yeah, i just think at that time, being from a kind of working—class background, ijust didn't think, and the way i spoke, and the way i was, that i was theirfodder at that time, so i'd be working my way up in a very incremental sort of way rather than landing a fabulous part very early on. so i kind of thought, actually, it's not going to serve me right here, right now. that is interesting because we have had other actors on this show who have talked about the degree to which they felt and

sometimes still feel that they felt acting is dominantly a middle and upper middle—class preserve and that working—class people who want to be actors, sometimes for example are told that their voice doesn't quite fit and they have to change it. that happened to you? they did encourage me to mellow my accent at rada, as you can hear i didn't take any notice of that and it has actually been my fortune, is my voice, it has been so much more beneficial than if i had lost it but i think that, i don't know, because i made that choice early on with the royal shakespeare company, because at that stage, i don't know anything about the royal shakespeare company now and i'm sure it's very, very different but when i was there, people who landed the big roles, very much had rp voices, but it could well be so different now. i've not really experienced

so much of that throughout the rest of my career because the choices that i've made and the directors that i have worked with. one of your early breakthroughs was working with mike lee, a director that we have actually spoken to on this programme. mike lee is known for his gritty, spontaneous, naturalistic movies. you were in life is sweet when actually you are still very young, weren't you? yes, i think was about 27 or something like that. would you say that that was quite a formative experience in the way he worked and what he expected of you? yeah, the tools that he gives you and the method that he uses, i still use a lot of those things now and just creating a character and the basis of a character, it was just a brilliant masterclass for me in how to work. so i'm hugely grateful to mike

that he did ask me to do that film, because it was a really wonderful experience and one that a lot of actors would love to have, to create a character from scratch with his guidance, it was just wonderful. and the other hugely influential person in your life around the same time wasjim cartwright, the writer who came up with a play, the rise and fall of littlevoice, which i think i'm right in saying was pretty much written with you in mind to take the lead? that's right, because i did his first play at the royal court and we became friends thereafter, and he discovered in my back garden that i could do impersonations. you mean, singing impersonations? yeah, singing impersonations, and he said i will write a play about that and i didn't think any more of it and two years

later, he said here is the play. so, who could you do? all the people that i did in the film of littlevoice. i did edith piaf in the play but that was kind of the only difference. i could dojulie andrews, barbra streisand, but they weren't included in the piece. ijust wonder how much whenjim was writing this, he fed into you, your personality at the time. the story is of this girl who was brought up in scarborough, yorkshire, somewhere in the north of england. it was set in scarborough, so yes. and she is kind of damaged, she's had a very difficult upbringing, difficult relationship with her mother, she's lost her father, she is almost reclusive, spends most her time in her bedroom but she has this gift, this incredible talent for singing and for mimicking some of the great singing stars, and there is a sort of vulnerability and a shyness

to her as well as a gift. do you think there was a vulnerability and shyness to you at the time? i think has certainly had that when i was growing up and i would hide behind my impersonations and they were a way of coping at school, they kind of, i went to quite a tough school and they were, being a clown and doing impersonations were my survival techniques. so they were helpful and yeah, i was relatively shy. you wouldn't think so now but i was shy. you wouldn't think of someone who was relatively shy, they would have an impulse to perform and go on the stage and be so exposed, somehow you combined the both. i think with a lot of actors, it's a lack of comfort in oneself which is why we become actors in that we are not sure about who we are as people and therefore it is so much easier hiding

behind somebody else's persona. that was definitely the case for me. it actually prompts me to say let's take a look at a scene from the movie, it'sjust called little voice, the movie, it came out a few years after the smash hit west end play but they wanted you again to play the lead, so we're going to look at a clip, which is the first time you are persuaded by this agent who works with you, persuaded finally, despite your shyness and your reserve, to actually go onto a stage and show what you can do, so let's take a look. # the minute you walked in the joint # i could see you were a man of distinction # a real big spender

# say, wouldn't you like to know what's going on in my mind? # so let me get right to the point # i don't pop my cork for every man i see # hey big spender # hey, big spender # hey big spender # spend...a little time with me!# wow! i think you out—shirley bassied shirley bassey there. it is a fantastic performance and people spotted some very familiarfaces including michael caine. you have described that is pretty much the perfect part for you. it's a bit of a cliche but do you think it's sort

of changed your life in a way? erm, i don't know whether it did or not. it kind of — i'd done quite a number of things before that but maybe doing the play did sort of semi—change my life in that other things were happening that time and because of the play of little voice i was offered other things, people became much more aware of the after that film but whether it changed my life, i don't know. it made you much more famous, for a start and then it led to other things, for example, you got involved with one of the most successful situation comedies in the uk, around the same time and that went on for years, it was absolutely fabulous, in which you had a very funny part. it was you as a complete airhead, a very silly girl, called bubble but again that made you a very familiar face

and ijust wonder whether you were comfortable with coming a nationalfigure? yes, and it did all happen the same time. they were at a similar time, little voice the play, and ab fab the tv series. so i think when you do a tv series that has got such attention, that is when you get your recognition, really. so, i think i probably get more recognition from ab fab than i do from little voice. which is strange in a way because it's a much richer, deeper performance and whole sort of atmosphere to little voice. what do you mean? bubble was deep! laughter she was hilarious, whether she was deep is a question. is it that you don't mind that you live with because it's natural that television does sort of dominate. when people identify you as oh, i know that face, i know

who she is, it's often on the telly rather than the theatre. yes, and it is often my voice. sometimes i can get away with not being recognised but as soon as i open my mouth they go, "oh, i know who you are." but, yes, telly is a much more immediate, isn't it? i wonder about absolutely fabulous, do you think it could... it is based on women behaving badly. drink is taken and sometimes drugs are taken as well. sometimes these are women with very politically correct lives and views. these days there is such a focus on not offending, on content that text various boxes. do you think that kind of show would get made? i that kind of show would get made? ~' ., , . made? i think it would be much more of a _ made? i think it would be much more of a struggle. _ made? i think it would be much more of a struggle. jennifer - more of a struggle. jennifer saunders was very much left to her own devices at the time and

often came up with things last minute so there was not the interference that there is now interference that there is now in making a piece of television. in that the producers were not on her back all the time. she was able to get on with it. as far as kind politically correct things, for some things she was restrained. doesn't worry you, sad you? i don't think they were, because it was done with such humour and because he had her daughter character who was so brilliantly played who was politically correct. she brilliantly played who was politically correct. she was a sensible one? _ politically correct. she was a sensible one? she _ politically correct. she was a sensible one? she was - politically correct. she was a sensible one? she was the l sensible one? she was the sensible — sensible one? she was the sensible one. _ sensible one? she was the sensible one. the - sensible one? she was the | sensible one. the character sensible one? she was the . sensible one. the character of edina, whichjennifer played, edina, which jennifer played, was edina, whichjennifer played, was i was being checked in by her daughter so there was always a balance there. so if it was done today and she was politically incorrect as the character edina, she was always

pulled up for it by the character of saffy. i think it came at a brilliant time in that we had men behaving badly and thenjennifer did her women and then jennifer did her women be and thenjennifer did her women be behaving badly and it was women, women absolutely loved it, men loved it as well, but particularly women because it represented them in that light as well. actually women can be as well. actually women can be a bit naughty to! thinking about changing cultural times because that was a huge hit in the �*90s and reprised with a movie and everything else, going back to the 90s, and the intervening 30 or so years, a lot has changed and one thing that has changed is everything that goes with the consciousness of the metoo movement and an awareness of abusive behaviour, of misogyny and deep sexism in the entertainment business. obviously as a woman who has been in the business throughout that, do you feel it has changed a great deal? it has definitely benefited it, and it was a big movement,

metoo and it felt like too much at the time, but it was absolutely right that it was too much. and sort of people were speaking up, and... i wonder whether you were at the time, 2017, there was a seminal moment on twitter when the american actress alyssa milano posted this, "if all the women in this industry who have been sexually harassed or assaulted wrote me to as their status, then we might give people a sense of the magnitude of this problem." were you actively thinking i'm me too, i can say metoo. definitely, definitely. we were, our generation of actors were just brought up that we just swallowed it, we just thought this is part of the business, you just have to put up with it.

i'm not talking extreme cases of sexual harassment or i'm not talking rape, but kind of, remarks, you just, or light petting, you thought, well, this is just standard and we have to live with it. that's why i'm saying when the metoo movement did happen, it seemed a little extreme for possibly people of my generation of actors because we had put up with it for so long. but then thinking about it, gosh, this is really relevant, it is such a brilliant thing that has happened, and has made life so much easierfor people, in that conditions have changed in theatres, in that you have somebody you can speak to if anything like that happens. it's not covered up, you can speak openly about things, and that has made a huge difference. but, in terms of basic questions of inequality

and maybe even residual misogyny in the acting profession, there are still big questions about, for example, the roles that are available to women, as they age. and i know you have engaged with that, you signed a joint letter not that long ago, of 100 leading women in the entertainment business saying there should be much more gender equality when it comes to the roles written for performers. do you think things have changed? i think they are changing slowly and i do think it feels like it's coming more into our time that women, there are more, i mean happy valley. very popular detective series, written by a woman. and i think that's changed things massively. sally wainwright's writing

is so pro women and there has been fleabag, i may destroy you written by women and performed by women, very strong pieces as well. but this pledge you signed up to, i don't know if you feel today, "today's in demand young actress is tomorrow's unemployed middle—aged actress." is it as causative is that, is it as inevitable is that? i mean, you've still got plenty of work? i do, but i have created a lot of my own work. and the parts i have been offered i have, a lot of parts i have been offered which i have turned down, i have not been that interested in. you might get a generic woman role, a mother, or not that mothers can't be interesting, but not very interesting mother that is just kind of in the periphery.

and, that is still definitely the case. is that one key reason you say, i have taken to writing and i've done a lot of my own work, generating stuff you can then perform for yourself? it is a form of proactive creation of roles that maybe women should feel confident enough to do in ways perhaps some don't at the moment? yes, it was as relevant when i was at the rsc all those years ago, the royal shakespeare company, i remember a meeting withjuliet stevenson, lindsay duncan, fiona shore, speaking out about the lack of roles for women, and because they, i, were young then as well, but i was so young, i thought what are they talking about. and i totally did not understand that then because i have got my whole career ahead of me and there

will be loads and loads of roles, but certainly when i did turned 40, i thought, i get what they were talking about. there is another intriguing discussion right now that seems to me potentially restricts the kinds of roles actors can "authenticity". to be very simplistic about it, it boils down to the idea that for example if you are playing a gay character, you really ought to have a gay actor doing that to give extra meaning and insight they can bring, and whether it might be a disabled part, that should be played by a disabled actor rather than famously many years ago, daniel day lewis playing a man with cerebral palsy. what's your feeling about that? i think it's good, i think it's a good thing that's happening. doesn't that restrict your range as an actor? i don't know. isn't that the point of acting that you can use your talent and imagination to put yourselves in other people's shoes.

certainly cate blanchett, another leading female actor, she says absolutely i have a right to play the role of a lesbian, because that's my gift, my skill, i can do it and i'm an actor. but i think if you have a woman who is a lesbian, why can't she play it. in the end, that should matter? i think so, because they completely understand it and can bring something to the role that somebody who isn't queer or gay can bring to the role. no, i think it's a good thing, it changes, change is always such a good thing and it has given people the chance who haven't been given a chance. and why not? i think, i don't have any issue with that. can i end where i began talking about the extent to which an actor can shape a career. you are still very busy, how do you want to shape the next phase of your career, will it be very much

about writing your own work? i am always open to anything really, i'm curious, so it's intriguing what's going to come up any, and i don't put any blocks in front of that and i don't have any ambition — i want to do this, i want to do that by the time i'm what age. but i would like to carry on creating and collaborating with others because i've got such a great deal of pleasure from doing that and it feels incredibly satisfying, in the way that it did all those years with mike lee because that felt like a proper collaboration, when you are creating something from scratch, that is what really thrills me, working with something from scratch. will you sing again? i would like to do, i went in a very direction — different direction recently little voice was representative of my love of those

old singers, but then i was drawn towards singers of my youth, postpunk, that movement and did a piece about that and i really loved doing that and i loved working with musicians, and, yes, i think to work with, yes, unusual musicians and just something that would challenge me in a different way, rather than being in a musical which i have no interest in whatsoever. so it would have to be something very left—field. that's a great thought to end on. jane horrocks, thank you for being on hardtalk.

hello there. looks like high pressure will continue to bring a lot of fine and settled weather to the country for the rest of this week and into the weekend. temperatures will be climbing slightly, particularly where we have the sunshine. that said, there'll still be a few showers around and outbreaks of rain around the area of high pressure. so, this weather front will be bringing some wet weather to the north of scotland throughout the day on wednesday. now, the blue tinge is fading away for wednesday. we're starting to import that yellow and orange colour, so, the temperature's climbing a little bit. so in the sunny spots, it'll feel very pleasant through the afternoon, but it starts off chilly. lots of sunshine. then the clouds build again. showers, this time, affecting the southern half of britain. further north, it'll be dry with some sunshine. but north highlands, the northern isles, some heavy and persistent rain here with a stronger breeze, feeling quite cool. but elsewhere again, it's the mid to high teens. and then through wednesday night, the showers fade away. many places will be dry.

we'll see variable amounts of cloud around, probably more cloud around, i think, wednesday night than what we've had the recent night. so, that should stop temperatures in falling much below five to nine celsius. so, a little bit milder. so, here's the picture for thursday. high pressure bringing a lot of dry weather for most. this weather front, though, another weather front will start to push into western scotland and northern ireland through the day. so here, cloudier, breezy with some splashes of rain east in scotland, england and wales. the best of the sunny spells, though we will see some showers developing across southern and eastern england and we could see more cloud around, i think, into the afternoon. temperature wise, though, in the brightest spots, again, the high teens, the mid—teens, though, further north. that weather from pushes its way eastwards to bring a band of cloud and showers across england and wales for friday. so, a bit ofa mixed bag, i think, to end the working week. some sunny spells around, variable cloud, but also some showers. thanks to this weakening weather front, particularly across england and wales, and the odd one could be on the heavy side. in the sunshine,

then temperatures again 17 or 18 degrees, but with more cloud around and i think it won't be quite as warm on friday than what we'll see on thursday. into the weekend with high pressure dominating the scene for most. and it's going to be mainly dry, and settled once again with some good sunny spells. but weather fronts flirting with the north of the uk will, at times, bring thicker cloud, maybe some spots of rain to scotland and northern ireland. best of the sunshine, england and wales. and we could be into the low 20s in warmer spots.

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