this is bbc news. we will have the headlines and all the main news stories for you at the top of the hour straight after this programme. welcome to hardtalk with me, zeinab badawi. my guest is one of the most celebrated artists of his generation, yet he is little known in his native britain and is only belatedly — to use his word — being given recognition here in the uk. well, now there is a major

exhibition at the prestigious tate britain museum of the work of the british—caribbean artist and film maker sir isaacjulien. it is a sweeping showcase of his four—decade career. his subject matter explores some of the most divisive issues of our age — migration, racism and sexuality. as a prominent gay, black man, how far does isaacjulien use his art to advance such causes? sir isaacjulien, welcome to hardtalk. thank you, zeinab.

how would you describe your artistic work? because it embodies a whole range of visual arts — photographs, drawings, art installations, experimental videos and documentaries. it sounds pretty eclectic. well, i guess you could say i'm someone who started making films, and i was very drawn to film—making at an early age — but then i went to art school. and going to art school, you're exposed to so many different sort of forms. i became so excited, really, as an art student, that i wanted to encapsulate all those forms. so, in a way, film, moving image, photography, sculpture — all of those things are part of what i make. and so, i guess, installation films, orfilm installation or moving—image art, is the kind of, in a way, form that i chose to present my work in a museum context. right. so, you say you studied at college. in fact, you won a place at the very prestigious saint martin's school of art, in london, which was really pretty good at that time,

because you were the son of immigrants from the caribbean island of saint lucia, you grew up in a pretty tough inner—city housing estate. so did you always know you wanted to be an artist? well, in a way, i think one of the things that happens when you're kind of a bored teenager — like i was — then you kind of look across the road and see these rather sort of, you know, odd artistic—looking people. you wonder, what are they up to? and i think once i sort of crept across that street and went into an artist's studio, it was game over and i knew that i wanted to become an artist. your exhibition at the tate, it's a retrospective of your 40—year—long career, you've got loads of video installations, and the title of your exhibition is what freedom is to me. why did you call it that? well, of course, you know, that comes from nina simone, you know, it's from a famous

interview where she talks about the idea of freedom and autonomy. and, you know, i think it comes... "what freedom means to me is no fear," is what she said. and so, i think that idea of sort of no fear in terms of being able to be fearless in the things that you want to say, in the way you might want to say those things, how you may want to make your work, what subject matter you might want to sort of be in your work — all of those things, for me, are the kind of raison d'etre as to why i make work. so, i felt very kind of, in a way, inspired by nina simone's statement, and i felt that encapsulated the kind of spirit of the show that i wanted to make. "no fear" is your motto, then, as she said. your exhibition showcases your work and it shows the breadth of your subject matter,

and i'm thinking here about your 2010 nine—screen extravaganza, called ten thousand waves, which was about the drowning of more than 20 chinese immigrants off the coast of northern england nearly 20 years ago. and you call that mobile spectatorship. but what are you trying to tell spectators there about the issue of migration and why do you call it mobile spectatorship? well, i mean, ithink one of the things about the morecambe bay tragedy was that, you know, these 23, 2a chinese cockle—pickers died and had come from such a long distance to meet these tragic ends. and so, i found that very moving. and i think this question of mobility, of the idea of being able to move, this is something which is only

allocated to certain peoples of the world, or the planet, and others have a very arduous journey that has to be undertaken to create that kind of mobility. and so, i think in my works... i mean, the nine—screen work of ten thousand waves was a project, really, to try to encapsulate that question of movement, notjust in the journeys that people are making, but also to think about that in the more existential sense, in terms of how you gaze and look at works in a more traditional sense. and so, for me, the idea of the mobile spectator was, in a way, unlearning the normative ways, the normal ways that we look at images and, in a way, troubling that by, in a way, raising this question of where to look and how to look. so, encapsulated within the presentation of ten thousand waves, really, is this sort of essence around the question of movement and choreography, and i guess in this work is a quite beautiful choreography. but, of course, there's some parts which are jarring and also, in a way, coming to terms with this question

of migration and movement. it's a tough, divisive issue. i mean, british government here very preoccupied with it. the home secretary, suella braverman, saying got to keep the numbers down, and you see that kind of debate all over europe. so, what is the message you are trying to give through this work about migration? what do you want people to come away with? is it, you know, don't turn around and look away from this difficult topic? absolutely. because i think there's a way in which the whole question of movement... i mean, of course, i'm here because of that movement. you know, if we didn't have empire and the movement of peoples from this part of the planet, you know, moving other populations around the world, then of course, you know, this kind of, if you like, call and response in relationship to capital, people journeying to improve their lives, to escaping wars and famines — all of these things are part of our kind of contemporary society that we inhabit. and so, for me, it's very important that we have a much more sort of... well, let's just say

in my work, i try to look at these questions in the kind of poetic sense, but it is driven by a kind of social justice. 0k. but how can you look at topics in a poetic sense when they include the documentary, for example, that you made in 1983 — called who killed colin roach? — about the death of a young caribbean briton at a london police station. i mean, can you deal with such a topic in a poetic way, as you've just said? well, you know, when i made that film in 1983 as an art student, you know, of course, i was rebelling against my art—school teachings. i took my camera onto the street, my new video art camera, and brought it to the demonstration. and so, in a sense, i think in that work, it was made at the time of the advent of video art. i was encapsulating video art technologies, or techniques,

into the telling of the story of the family's campaign to get a public inquiry into the death of their son, colin roach. you know, in a way, i think it was made with that in mind. and i think, in a way, for me it's very much about also trying to make work that somehow is against the way that the dominant media tells stories about these questions. and so, i guess there's a certain poetry within that. i see. but how far do you see yourself as an artist as well as an activist? i mean, that sounds like you had a real purpose there, wanting to get a proper inquest into the death of colin roach — i believe there were two, and both of them returned verdicts of suicide, which a lot of people said was rather improbable. but, i mean, do you see yourself as an activist?

well, i do, yes. i mean, i think i've seen myself as someone who's, in a way, reworking the idea of what activism might mean — but to do that in an art space, which, in a sense, encapsulates sort of the way in which people look at things. and so, i think there's a way in which we have come to become very, if you like, normalised in terms of how we are drawn to these subjects. and there is a kind of, "yeah, sure," or kind of boredom effect, i think, that people have in relationship to these questions. so, i'm into giving a kind of allegorical take on some of these questions so they have a much more lasting impact. so, a work like western union small boats was made in 2007, which is about the whole small boats, you know, political drama that we have at the moment in the english channel. it's work which has been shown, you know, over the decades, and i think that occurs of the way that it's made. 0k. let's look at an example of your work. in 2019, you created a video installation of frederick douglass, who, of course, was the african american 19th—century abolitionist who was himself enslaved, a former slave.

so, let'sjust have a clip of that. there is not a nation on earth... ..guilty of practices more shocking and bloody than are the people in these united states in this very hour! so, isaacjulien, why did you choose frederick douglass as a subject? because i wonder if there's a tendency for you to choose male figures and historical ones, rather than focusing more on contemporary issues orfemale protagonists. well, i think, in a way, with frederick douglass, i was very drawn to the fact that he was someone who had been an abolitionist, that he lived for at least over two years in scotland —

at the time that he wrote his book, his autobiography in terms of being a slave — to escape being re—enslaved. and i was just very, in a way, kind of moved by his story and his biography, and also the way in which he was able to utilise the english language in such an incredible manner and his sense of oratory. but i think, also, there's a way in which with douglass... i mean, i didn't know that he was the most photographed man of the 19th century, more so than lincoln, that he had a whole philosophy about photography, his aesthetic theory about photography, photography as an emancipatory tool, along with all of his different theories around the idea of picture—making, that picture—making, both in photography, in speeches, in his art form as an orator, was able to kind of, in a way, create a certain way of looking at blacks as humans. and, yeah, for me, this is incredible at the time.

a lot of your work looks at black males and celebrates their form, really, because you are not only a prominent artist, but also a prominent voice in the gay community. and in your 1989 film montage, called looking for langston, which focused on langston hughes, who was the closeted gay black poet, one of the leaders of the harlem renaissance. that celebration of black gay sexuality has become something with which you are associated. and you say until you made that film, a black gay voice did not really exist. do you see yourself as not only a black artist, but also a black gay artist, and that you feel you need to raise your voice in that cause? well, i think at the time when i was making the work that it was really very important to be able to make a work that would somehow give a form to these experiences.

at the time when i made looking for langston, it was, you know, the aids crisis was in full swing and, you know, people, friends of mine were dying left, right and centre. and i came across this wonderful poet, essex hemphill, who was such an incredible orator and inherited the mantelpiece of james baldwin, i would say, in terms of his poems. and there was a way that they gave a really powerful language and pictorial frame for making a work like looking for langston... but just exploring your sexuality. maria balshaw, who's the director of the tate museum group, says, "isaac has been at the forefront of challenging our ideas around both race and gender and sexuality and queer history." so, to what extent do you think it is harder being a black gay man than a white gay man? because, you know, we read a lot about how black men are depicted in the media and social media as being overly masculine, and so on. so, do you think it is harder being black and gay?

well, ithink, you know, that when one's growing up, getting to understand that is, of course, complicated, and making a sense of your identity becomes part, really, of an articulation for surviving. but i think one of the things which is really very important is really, then, how you begin to create a sort of, in a way, self image or reflection of oneself, which can, in a way, endure. and, in a way, i think making a film like looking for langston was very much about making a film that would somehow both give voice but also give back an image and a beauty to oneself, but also, you know, just to create a certain community that would be able to rally around it in a particular manner. but, i mean, should you not raise your voice more loudly? you said, you know, "look, i'm an activist as well as an artist." and i say to you, 11 caribbean states — including your parents'...

..you know, island of st lucia, they came from there — still have laws which criminalise gay sex. i mean, shouldn't you be raising your voice and saying, "no, this is not correct in the 21st century. you can't have that"? well, i think when i made young soul rebels, in 1991, which went to cannes, won a prize, was a feature film, that was like... i should just say, that was a film about a love story, a gay love affair between a white punk rocker and a black dj. precisely. and, in a way, i think that did send sort of waves, and i think that kind of was making an intervention into the public sphere, which very much, i mean, has recently been sort of revived and shown in cinemas, and audiences today are really quite struck by that work.

and so, i think there's a way in which one's making those kinds of films. but i think there's also the space for other types of work, which are sort of, in a way, films which are sort of... ..i would say, have a longevity to them in terms of the intervention they want to make as artworks, as well. so, you mentioned that film, young soul rebels, in 1991, and the fact you won an award at the cannes international film festival for that. and your long life partner, the british curator mark nash, described it as... "an exciting cultural moment. there was a sense that a lot of things could open up in the film world, but they did not," he said. why do you think that is? because your profile is not as high as some people might expect it to be in the uk, where, you know, you were born and bred. well, i mean, ithink it's a really interesting question, because, of course... i mean, my work has been shown all over the world. i've taught all over the world. but, also, i think there's a way in which in britain,

you know, there's a certain sort of narrative in film, you know, which has been, in a way, propagated. and it's an industry that's been very sort of, in a way, i would say, hard to change its ways in terms of really giving access to the kind of broad voices. i mean, when i started making works in sankofa film and video collective, we were five black people of colour, younger artists, film—makers making works. and i would say, in a way, that particular moment, after the �*81 riots, was a kind of culture explosion. and i think, in a way, the response to that was that things became very, in a way, closed down. i hit a glass ceiling at quite a young age, and it took some time, really, before that would become something that would be able to be broken, i think. interesting. cos you moved to the united states in the mid—�*90s and,

as you say, you took up teaching posts at the university of california, you also had a stint at harvard university. but your profile, as we said, has been lower here in the uk than it has been in the us, where you're something of a superstar. but what do you think that tells us about the difference in attitudes towards race between the uk and the us? does it tell you anything? well, ithink, you know, in the uk, of course, there's been this sort of, if you like... well, you know, i could call myself a kind of brexit refugee today, but i would say that that begins, really, with the whole way in which in this island that we live on, that people have been very exclusionary in terms of the ways in which they have really given the space for different voices. i said recently in an interview you need to, in a way, change the people at the top to really get that real change. and so, i think there's been a particular resistance in film, and that's to do with the way in which this culture really polices the kinds of works and, in a way, tries to create a space, really, where only a few people can make works

as if it's a special thing. so, it's something that you just think is the difference in the film world between the us and the uk? you don't think it tells you something much more about the difference in attitudes towards race in american wider society and similarly in the uk? no, i think there is something of that going on, as well, yeah, absolutely. which is? ithink, you know, in america there's a way in which these things can be taken for granted more, and i think they're taken for granted because there's a way in which certain struggles have come to the fore, and i think, institutionally, there's been a much more critical response to those.

right. both in the us and the uk... we've seen confederate monuments in the us being taken down, nearly 100 there, and also in the uk, local authorities looking at statues of people who... ..you know, colonialists who were responsible for heinous acts towards native people, and that kind of thing. where do you stand on that? because there are prominent african britons — such as kwasi kwarteng, who was the first black chancellor of the exchequer — who says, "i don't think you can just rip down statues, that's illegal and an act of vandalism. people should learn more about the empire." do you think he has a point? well, i don't quite agree with his point. and i think there's a way in which, of course, you know, what happened in bristol was something which had been a community debate for over three decades. that's the statue of colston, who had made a great deal of money from the slave trade,

brought down in bristol. precisely. and i think, in a way, kind of, like, out of the spirit of black lives matter, that event occurred and, in a way, it did create a kind of lightning rod in correspondence to all of the things that were happening in this period. but we're talking about kwasi kwarteng saying people should learn more about the empire — but in 2022, you accepted a knighthood. i don't need to remind you that it's kbe, knight of the british empire. you said at the time it was really problematic. why was that the case and why did you accept it? well, i mean, ithink there's a way in which, you know, there's a recognition that's been given to one. you know, that one, in a way, has that sort of question about that as something that's important. i mean, i do think, you know, that it's really good that we have, at this particular moment, you know, charles, our new king looking at questions around slavery. and i think there's a way in which...that it will have to look, as an institution,

at the naming of the ways in which these kinds of recognitions are awarded. because, of course, for me, having to take an award which has that title is problematic, and i think it's something which i thought about quite deeply, and i think it's something which has to... in a sense, i'm hoping there will be a recognition, you know, that will look at those questions. well, there's the question also of restitution, which you have looked at in your work, statues never die, when you have the african american scholar alain locke debating about whether the benin bronzes should be returned, and so on. just very quickly, cos we're running out of time, where do you stand on that issue? well, i mean, ithink,

you know, that if things have been wrongly taken, they should be given back. you know, i mean, i'm very clear on that. but i would say my work is a form of poetic restitution. i see it as something which is thinking about the nuances around these sorts of questions. but i think there's something that's very important about the acknowledgement of certain violence that takes place at a particular time, and how those need to be, in a way, returned to their rightful owners. i think that's very important. but there are lots of other questions, i think, which i think a work like statues never die looks at. sir isaacjulien, thank you very much indeed for coming on hardtalk. thank you, zeinab. thank you.

hello there. here at home, our weather is quite quiet but in italy, the flood situation will be ongoing. there's more cool, wet and windy weather developing in southern parts of europe and this is the rainfall accumulation in the next few days. heavy rain for corsica and sardinia. the heaviest of the rain this time is more for the north—west of italy, and that could lead to some further flooding. away from that thickening cloud, we've had this band of cloud on that weather front producing just a little bit of rain. that's heading its way down into england and wales in some areas. clearer skies following to scotland and northern ireland. and first thing in the morning, temperatures could be as low as about five degrees. we will have more sunshine, though, on friday for scotland and northern ireland, although it may well cloud over a little more in the afternoon. some areas of cloud for england and wales producing this rain and drizzle. it will tend to peter out but as it brightens up will trigger a few showers all the way from yorkshire into the west midlands and the west country as well. but there will be some warm spells of sunshine around on friday and in light winds,

those temperatures are going to be very similar to what we had on thursday. it could actually be a bit warmer in scotland, particularly across the east with more sunshine. now, this developing area of low pressure is storm nino and that's going to bring all that wet weather into central parts of the mediterranean. here at home, it's high pressure that's tending to dominate, although there is this strip of cloud coming in from the atlantic and it looks like it could be quite cloudy for scotland and northern ireland. probably dry. most of that cloud is going to be quite high cloud. and away from here, england and wales seeing the lion's share of the sunshine. a bit of a breeze picking up perhaps in the far south—east of england but warm in the sunshine — temperatures hitting 20 or 21 celsius, particularly in the west, holding at 16 or 17 for scotland and northern ireland. and into the second half of the weekend, we've still got a lot of cloud for scotland and northern ireland. a little or no rain around. it could well brighten up and warm up in the south—east of scotland but again, sunshine for england and wales, some fair weather cloud and temperatures reaching 20 or 21 celsius. a little bit cooler perhaps around some of those north sea coasts. so, we've got some decent weather on the whole for this weekend and not a great deal of change into next week.

many places still dry with some sunshine, more cloud in the far north, and this is where we're more likely to have some rain at times.

live from london, this is bbc news. leaders of the world's richest democracies pay their respects in hiroshima as the g7 summit gets under way, with global trade, china, and sanctions against russia high on the agenda. iam nick i am nick marsh, live in hiroshima andi i am nick marsh, live in hiroshima and i will keep you “p hiroshima and i will keep you up to date with the latest developments as g7 leaders get the summit officially under way. also coming up: disney's feud with flordia's governor ron desantis deepens, as the entertainment giant scraps plans to build a new corporate campus in the state. a sweeping crackdown on gang violence in el salvador has lowered crime, but it's

believed thousands of innocent people are still stuck behind bars more than a year later.