this is bbc news. we'll have the headlines and all the main news stories for you at the top of the hour straight after this programme. hello, everybody. a very warm welcome to talking business weekly with me, aaron heslehurst. let's go and take a look at what's on the show. eyeing up africa — as the west competes with china, who will end up having the most influence on that fast—growing continent? as the g7 uses its summit injapan to draw the world's poorest countries closer, will recent visits to africa by its leaders pay off as they look to tackle concerns about food and energy in return for natural resources? i'm going to be discussing all of that with these two.

there they are. this former senior us trade official who now helps build bridges between private companies and opportunities across africa. also, the african union's trade commissioner, who tells me what his continent really wants from the rest of the world as it looks to advance its own prosperity. also on the show, keeping safe online — the war in ukraine means companies are more worried than ever about cyber attacks, so i'm going to be speaking to the big boss of one of the world's leading cyber security firms who keeps many of the world's biggest businesses out of trouble. wherever you'rejoining me from around the world, once again, a big hello and a warm welcome to the show. you know, africa is seen by many as the most exciting continent on the planet — 5a countries full of young, energetic people and rich — rich in both potential and natural resources. but it is still home to some of the poorest countries in the world and western leaders, they're competing with china for influence.

and that competition means that engaging with africa is very much on the minds of the leaders of the g7 group of advanced economies as they meet injapan. so, who will come out on top as africa itself strives for prosperity and economic growth? the combined size of africa's economy is estimated at $3.1; trillion, even though it has a population of around 1.3 billion people. the economy is just a fraction of the size of either china's or america's. in recent years, more and more money has been pouring into africa from abroad. the latest numbers show that in 2021, foreign direct investment into africa hit a record $83 billion. and the amount of trade that african countries do with china, it has soared since the turn of the century. as you can see here, it overtook the united states in 2009, and that gap has grown substantially since.

so, what's behind all of this money flowing into africa? well, in a large part, it's about natural resources. yep — oil, copper, cobalt and iron ore are all major exports from africa to china. beijing wants those for construction and the stuff that it sells to all of us around the rest of the world. american companies are now increasing their spending across africa. however, for years, chinese firms, often state owned, have been building infrastructure such as roads, railways and ports across the continent. critics argue that much of that has been funded by loans from china that countries such as ethiopia, ghana, zambiajust can't really afford to repay. and that, in turn, is giving beijing political influence across the continent. translation: we're not bringing a so-called debt trap, _ we are bringing development opportunities. we've never attached any

political strings to our aid and economic assistance to african countries. every head of state has welcomed china's help to africa and appreciates china's support to africa in various fields. and, of course, all that investment — it's been noticed in the west, particularly since the war in ukraine, which has had major spill—overs into africa. that's because ukraine has traditionally exported so much food to the rest of the world. the cost of food and fertilisers as well as energy have spiked, causing major economic headaches for the import dependent governments across africa who have been looking for support from abroad. and that's been noted by leaders of the g—7 major economies with the likes of the french president, the german chancellor, us vice president and the japanese prime minister all visiting africa in the run up to the g7 summit injapan, where engaging with the so—called global south is high up on the agenda. in fact, according to this japanese magazine, the japanese prime minister told his aides that the chinese and i'm quoting, have been going all over africa

and latin america, he added. at this rate, we'll lose to them. and it's that fear that seems to be driving japan's allies as well. the united states committed to strengthen our partnerships with governments, the private sector, civil society. and all of you. to be clear here, america will be guided not by what we can do for our partners, but what we can do with our partners. so some are asking, is the west now trying to play catch up with china? well, that's something i've been speaking about with a woman who used to be in charge of the united states trade relationship with africa and is now the big boss of the corporate

council on africa. it's a washington—based organisation that works to boost trade between the us and africa. florizelle liser, a real pleasure having you on the show. and, flori, let me start with this because you spend a lot of time in africa working with business leaders to help them grow their presence there as well as politicians. flori, i'mjust wondering which industries in areas of the african economy are getting the most attention right now? so in terms of particular sectors. you know, obviously, agribusiness is an important one. africa has, ithink, something like 60% of the world's arable. and there's a lot of opportunity, but not just in basic farming, but really in adding value and to their products. another area that i think is really interesting is health. i really do have to mention one more, which is in the area of renewable energy, obviously solar and hydro

and wind, these are all things that africa has in abundance. and flourish. do those opportunities... i'm just wondering, do they favour some parts of the world over others? for example, there's a lot of financial technology firms popping up in africa. is that an area that favours doing business with, let's say, the united states over china, because it's more transparent? africa is more competitive in services, services contribute more to africa's gdp than goods. lots of africans i talk to, whether in government or the private sector really do like working with us companies for a variety of a lot of africans i talked to, whether in government or the private sector, really do like working with us companies for a variety of reasons. they like the american

reasons brand. they like the fact that working with the americans, often there's more transparency in the relationship. and they also like the fact that us companies do a lot in terms of skills transfer and technology transfer, and they don't necessarily see this with all the other partners, china as well as others. as we stand now, what are the biggest barriers of non—chinese countries trying to do business with africa? some of those are being addressed. there isn't really a way for small companies to go and invest, and trade one by one with the african economies, all 5a. now that they have the african continental free trade barrier, that is creating the largest free trade market in the world. us companies can now say, ok, i can invest here, in one place in africa, to be able to supply goods to the entire african continent

from that one place. or, i can invest in a particular sector and paul other countries in the region around that one factory. just as an example, ford has invested significantly in increasing its production of automobiles in south africa for the purpose of being able to supply to the growing middle—class economy of africa. this year we've seen the traditional visit to africa from china's foreign minister, but also flori, a growing number of western leaders. just briefly, i'm wondering

what the business leaders that you speak to make of all this attention? i am glad that people are noticing that there are incredible opportunities on the continent. you know, people talk about sometimes us versus china, but truthfully, the us and china are not the only countries that are in africa. and why? because most people recognise you've got fast growing economies. you've got a youthful population. you know, they're going to be supplying a huge part of the world's labour force. they've got the commodities and the natural resources there, and you have better governance in a lot of the countries. but flori, let's be frank here, because you know this many are seeing this as basically the west trying to play catch up. we know china's been investing billions into africa since the turn of the century and this is now the west, possibly sweating bricks that they're losing out to china's influence on that vast continent. i have a somewhat different view because china certainly has been in africa for a while. but, you have us companies,

for example, caterpillar and procter and gamble and visa, who have been there for 40, 50, 60 years. so, some of it is just the impression of who's there... but the numbers speak for themselves because flori in 2009, china overtook the us when it comes to the size of its trade relationship with africa and it's now three times as big right as what america spends. i mean, you had an important role in the us government at a time when china was busy overtaking and outspending the us in africa and growing its influence. so, can you say, looking back at it, that that was a mistake? no, no, no. let's be clear, because of what has happened in china over the last 30 to a0 years as they were coming into the world trade organization and all of that, what they've done in africa is essentially no different than what they've done all in the rest of the world. but the other point that

i think is important, yes, china has eclipsed the us in terms of its trade with africa, but a lot of it is in raw commodities and natural resources to power its own economy. so what does africa want? they want investment in manufacturing. they want to have people who will notjust take their raw commodities and create the jobs somewhere else, whether it's china or anywhere else in the world. they want folks who are going to come in and produce automobiles, medical equipment, refrigerators, white goods, and all of that on the continent. this is the time that people should be doing that. so yes, china plays a role in africa, but so does

the united states. flori is the big boss of corporate council on african. an absolute pleasure having you on this show. good luck with everything and i'll talk to you soon. great. thank you so much for having me. so, with customers for its valuable natural resources just queuing up at the door. africa seems to be in a strong position, but it's also a continent full of countries with huge debts to the rest of the world. so, just how is it going to turn its opportunities into prosperity? well, that's something i've been discussing with the man in charge of trade at the african union, ambassador albert muchanga. a real pleasure having you on the show. and albert, let's start with this, because this year we've seen a big increase in the number of foreign leaders visiting africa. they all want to increase trade ties with africa. why do you think that is? well, this is part of the international economy. there are a lot of opportunities around the world and a lot of countries want diversified.

they are export destinations. and of course, they also wanted to diversify their import sources of imports. africa is a young continent. it offers huge opportunities for growth in the future. africa has vast reserves of natural resources, and a lot of countries want to have access to those resources. so we understand it's part of the game of interdependence. as we know. i mean, japan, it's hosting the g7 summit. what do you think, albert will actually come out of the summit�*s aim to to strengthen the links with the global south? that is, in recognition of the systemic influence of africa to the global economy. that is, in recognition of the systemic influence of africa to the global economy. systemic in the sense

of the huge growth potential and growing population as well as natural resources. so these will be key elements in the growth of the global economy in the future. it's in recognition of this that the north and the south want deeper interdependence, and it's welcome. you know, albert, iam wondering if this is the likes ofjapan, the us, the eu, simply trying to play catch up in africa and they're all worried just how far behind they are to china when it when it comes to african investment. from 2000 onwards, there was huge investments from china. when the rest of the world saw the growing statistics, that is when they saw that there was a massive opportunity in africa. hence their interest, the g7 has come up with a programme for investment in africa. in the european union,

they have also come up with a programme promoting investments across the global south. and when the rest of the world saw the growing statistics so each economy, it should have a share of the african market. has china's investments helped to to build a better, more more prosperous african society? when you look at the what a number of african

economic landscapes, that's very good evidence of large investments in infrastructure. it can be rail lines. it can be seaports. it can be energy systems like electricity and urban transportation and other facilities. those are very visible across africa, and they have been built by the chinese. nobody can deny they are there. yes. so, china has really done quite a considerablejob in promoting infrastructure development across africa through the belt and road initiative. and albert, you're speaking to me from ottawa. you're there to try and strengthen africa's trade links with canada, which is, of course, a member of the g—7. but what is the focus of your message to them? i mean, what is it, albert, that you want from canada and its g—7 partners? what we want is that africa is transforming. and in that process of transformation, wants to add value to our vast natural resources. if we can get the skills to promote industrial design

and really advance the process of manufacturing and agriculture processing across africa, that is going to be most welcome. so if we move in that direction, there's going to be a partnership because we are not going to continue as the historical sources of raw materials. no, it will not work because of a growing population which want opportunities for decentjobs. and that can only come from the processes of manufacturing and processing. a good example has been given by drc and zambia, where they are going to come up with a joint project on the production of batteries for electric vehicles. there are concerns about foreign investment in africa. for example, a few weeks ago, the president of the world bank told me that some of these loans and investments

need to be and i quote, more transparent. you share that concern? how do you make sure that happens? transparent scene is very much important. one of the things that we fully want to reach an agreement on is to be very open about the issues that are on the table. there should be no hidden clauses. there have been hidden clauses in the past. and albert, my friend, let me end on this. one thing that you've been working on and you're still trying to get it fully implemented is the african continental free trade area. now, once you get that, will this trade area, do you think, leave the african union to eventually be negotiating on trade as a single bloc, just like the eu does? and in a way, that united approach surely puts africa in a very strong position

to to make better deals. yes. having established the african continental free trade area, the next stage is to move it towards an african customs union. so we are moving in that direction and once we have that done that, then we are creating the conditions for policy harmonisation, macroeconomic policy convergence. at that stage, africa should really be able to speak very strongly with one voice on all global economic issues. well, on that point, ambassador albert muchanga, the african union trade commissioner, a real pleasure having you on the show, albert. good luck with everything. i need all the luck. thank you. i'll check in with you soon. thank you. did you know, the number

of cyber attacks is at a record high? some of the most high profile recent attacks, they've been linked to russia as it uses its sophisticated tech weapons against ukraine. just this month, the fbi and some of its global partners said they stopped a major piece of russian software that was attacking companies all around the world. it all means that business leaders are more worried than ever about their cybersecurity. so i caught up with the big boss of cyberark. it's the us based company that tries to keep thousands of major companies, including more than half of the world's biggest banks, safe from attack. matthew cohen, a real pleasure having you on the show. and matt, let's start with this. just how dangerous is the digital world right now? yeah. great to be here. so, when we look at the digital world, it's really moving at such a rapid pace that the complexity of protecting those environments is becoming increasingly more difficult. and so as we look at the digital innovation or digital transformation of organisations, companies and governments, we see this effect of an ability for hackers to innovate and come at us in all new trajectories.

well, let me ask you this again, just for the uninitiated, and if you can put a number on it, you know, how many types of cyber attacks are we talking about that are out there? i think when we when we talk about attacks, we can talk in the numbers of of hundreds of thousands, if not millions, in terms of how much is really happening on a daily basis, for sure. the thing we hear most about in the news these days is ra nsomwa re. and ransomware as a service is something that continually is taking off. what that means is there's actually entities out there that are using this to to make profit, to fund organised crime, to fund nation states. and that certainly is something that has captivated us. but we also see it as part of an overall increasing attack vector. where are the hotspots for cyber attacks right now, both in terms of, well, industries and countries? for sure, health care is under attack and it's particularly concerning. we see it in manufacturing environments with critical infrastructure and we see it

on on on government entities around the world. and so there really is no space that is significantly safe. and matt, how much more risk has been created by the fact that so many of us have continued to to work from home in this post—pandemic world? i'm just wondering surely that creates a lot more vulnerability for whoever employs us, whether it's companies, governments or other organisations. aaron, i think that's exactly a really astute point. and the idea here is that we used to have a physical perimeter around the office and the it organisations that do great work. they were able to try to lock down that physical perimeter. and now with hybrid work and work from home, we like to say identity is the new perimeter. and what that means is that we actually have to lock down the identities of individuals because we can't actually lock down the physical environment any more. how do you do that, matt? we have to understand what that identity has access to, so what privileges they have,

and then make sure that every account, every user, can only access the critical systems and data that they really need. matt, how much of an issue in terms of cyber attacks has been created off the back of the, well, the russian invasion in ukraine? i think we see that any time there's this type of a conflict on on world stage, that there is both the effects within the conflict itself and then there is the fall—over effect. we saw that in 2017 conflict between russia and ukraine with the attack where it actually spilt over. and big companies like maersk, the biggest shipping company in the world, was was essentially shut down for a period of time. so any time there's cyber warfare going on, there's the possibility that the cyber tools being used actually spill over to organised crime, to other bad actors. and then us in the private sector have to deal with the fallout.

matt, let's talk about artificial intelligence. i'm wondering, do you think a.i. poses a threat to humanity? because, as you know, back in march, we had key figures in this space, such as elon musk and the apple co—founder steve wozniak. they signed a letter calling for al development to be suspended because they believe that the race to develop a.i. is just out of control. so as the big boss of a company that helps keep some of the biggest companies on the planet safe from ai threats, do you do you agree with them? all of the excitement that everybody feels about what it can contribute to code development and productivity and efficiency also comes as a double edged sword. you know, the same tools can be used to create more malicious malware that can be used to create actually better deep fakes. it can be used to actually do

something called social engineering, which allows bad actors to be able to phish more effectively and steal credentials from the likes of you and me. and so any time we have rapid innovation on the technology side, it also can be leveraged forforfor not good. for bad, actually. and so we think and we believe that we have to build ai into our solutions in order to prepare for the innovation that's happening on the other side. but it definitely keeps us up at night as we think about where in the rapid pace we're moving through for the future. well, on that point, matt, matthew cohen, the big boss of cyberark really appreciate your time. thanks forjoining me and i'll check in with you soon. thanks, aaron. it's been great to be with you. well, that's it for this week's show. i hope you enjoyed it. don't forget, you can keep up with all the latest on the global economy on the bbc news website and the smartphone app. of course, you can also follow me on twitter, tweet me, i'll tweet you back. thanks for watching. i'll see you soon. bye bye. hello there. it's been a lovely start to the weekend, really, especially across england

and wales where we've had lots of sunshine. so blue skies over these bluebell woods in south wales, in pontypridd. and on the satellite picture you can see the extent of the sunshine that have more cloud for scotland and northern ireland. the weak weather front overhead here, but we've still managed some brighter spells for scotland, and for northern ireland, england and wales we had temperatures reaching the low 20s and the warmest spots, the 21.5 there in porthmadog, actually making it the warmest day of the year so far for wales. now, over the next few hours we've got another weather front moving in. it's kind of pepping up, bringing a bit of heavier rain just for a time to scotland and northern ireland. but then as we get towards dawn, that will tend to start to fizzle away. clear skies for england and wales, allowing temperatures to dip down to around 5 to 8 degrees celsius. so it will be quite a cool start to a sunday morning for england and wales. sunday's chart, we've got a weak weather front that's moving into an area of high pressure. the high pressure will squish the weather front. so not much rain on it really as we head into sunday. it's just this stripe of cloud. so a few spots around.

but, generally, although quite cloudy, there'll be some bright weather coming through at times. england and wales again having the best of the weather with plenty of sunshine around, perhaps a bit of cloud developing through the afternoon across east anglia and the southeast. but those temperatures, again, not bad for the time of year, quite close to average, really, with highs into the upper teens, although 20s, 21, maybe a 22 in the warmest spots. now heading into next week, it's a similar kind of scenario, very weak weather fronts trying to come around the top side of this area of high pressure. so again, you might see an odd bit of rain for scotland and northern ireland, but not much. most of the day will be dry with some sunny spells coming through. again, it's england and wales that will have the best of the day's sunshine and we continue to see those temperatures in the warmest spots climbing into the low 20s. now, deeper into next week, the jet stream takes this kind of pattern, get a ridge over the uk, so high pressure is going to be close by. these troughs around southern europe will ensure that we continue to see heavy thundery showers across

southern europe, which is quite unusual really for this time of the year. so here's the forecast in a bit more detail. over the next several days, you can see the extent of the dry weather we'll have with temperatures again holding for the most part at around 18 to 21 degrees celsius. so some fine weather next week.

live from washington. this is bbc news. the defence ministry in moscow says wagner mercenaries, with the support of russian troops, have taken full control of bakhmut. ukraine denied similar claims earlier. the war dominates talks at the g7, as president zelensky spends the day meeting world leaders. and later in the program, we'll talk about how much it will cost to see taylor swft on tour. hello, i'm helena lee. great to have you with us.

we begin with some news from the war in ukraine.