this is bbc news. we will have the headlines and all the main news stories for you at the top of the hour. newsday continue straight after hardtalk. welcome to hardtalk with me, zeinab badawi. my guest today has blended his creative talent with music to produce some of the most innovative poetry recordings. jamaican—born british poet linton kwesi johnson writes about the difficulties his generation experienced with racism, and he's inspired a generation of activists. but how relevant is his work today on the issues that are faced in a changing britain?

linton kwesijohnson, welcome to hardtalk. nice to be here. so you were 11 when you came over from jamaica in 1963 tojoin your mother, who was already working here. how formative was that experience for you? it was a bit of a shock when i arrived. it wasn't what i had expected. in my childhood imagination, you know, you literally imagine the street of london paved with gold and palaces and carriages with kings and queens and that sort of thing. well, it has that sometimes! they chuckle. so it took a bit of getting used to.

but when you're young, it's easier to adjust to a new environment than when you're old. and once i started school, you know, i settled down and, um... i did rather well at school because the education i had injamaica — i went to an elementary school — was in some ways superior to what i was confronted with at my secondary school, tulse hill secondary school. for example, they didn't teach grammar in english, which i did injamaica. mm—hm. and it took a couple of years before i began doing simultaneous equations, when i was doing those injamaica. so you were educationally much more advanced. i was able to cope. so you were able to cope, but you say that you never really felt that you fitted in when you were at

school in england. you say you made friends, but that the atmosphere was also hostile, that you experienced racism. what do you mean? well, when... for my generation, we... we wanted to be british. we wanted... this was a new country. our parents had great expectations for us. we wanted to blend in with the communities and become a part of england, but we were faced with hostility, and... can ijust ask, where did you get that sentiment from? because i know that you were brought up by your maternal grandmother. mm—hm. your mother was already working in england. you didn't have much contact with your father. so was it your maternal grandmother who influenced you in that kind of thinking? no, i think that most young people injamaica had that kind of a mind—set because of the colonial... they were part of... england was our mother country, so to speak.

so, you know, we expected motherly... ..motherly treatment when we arrived. and what did you get instead? racial abuse, hostility. um... you know, my generation, we suffered extreme sense of alienation from the society. and by the time we became teenagers, you know, we had to draw on our roots from where we came. we became more... instead of becoming more british, we became more caribbean, more jamaican, more trinidadian... which has really influenced your work subsequently. and reggae music played a big part in that, because... sure. yeah, i'll come to the reggae music in a moment. butjust to sort of plot your life a little bit, life story a little bit more. it's really interesting, the fact that you are a man renowned for using words and yet your father was illiterate, your mother semi—literate, your grandmother illiterate,

but you won a place at goldsmiths college in london, where you studied sociology. mm—hm. and that's where, in the mid—1970s, you first began to write political poetry. why were you motivated to do that? i was motivated to write verse because of a book i read called the souls of black folk by web du bois about the experiences... and he was the very prominent african—american thinker. yes. about the experiences of african—americans after emancipation. and, strangely enough, i was able to relate my own experiences to what i had read, and it stirred something within me. it made me want to express myself, to articulate how i felt about the experiences of my generation growing up in a hostile environment. right.

one really striking event, the kind of issues that we're talking about that inspired you to write was the new cross fire in london in 1981, when 13 young black britons tragically died. and you were part of the new cross massacre action committee and you organised a march of 20,000 with placards saying, "13 dead, nothing said." and you wrote some poetry about that called di great insohreckshan. could you read it for us, please? yeah, well, the di great insohreckshan came after the black people's day of action in response to the new cross massacre. yeah. it was really about the uprisings in brixton that followed. di great insohreckshan. "it woz in april nineteen eighty wan doun inna di ghetto af brixtan dat di babylan dem cause such a frickshan dat it bring

about a great insohreckshan an it spread all owevah di naeshan it woz truly an histarical occayshan it woz event af di year an i wish i ad been dere wen wi run riat all owevah brixtan wen wi mash—up plenty police van wen we mash—up di wicked wan plan wen we mash—up di swamp eighty wan fi wha? fi mek di rulah dem andastan dat wi naw tek noh more a dem oppreshan and wen mi check out di ghetto grape vine fi fine out all i coulda fine evry rebeljusa revel in dem story dem a taak bout di powah an di glory dem a taak bout di burnin an di lootin dem a taak bout di smashin an di grabin dem a tell me bout di vanquish an di victri dem seh babylan dem went too far soh wha wi ad woz fi bun two cyar an wan an two

innocent get mar but wha noh soh it goh sometime inna war ein star noh soh it goh sometime inna war? dem seh wi bun dung di george wi coulda bun di lanlaad we bun dung di george wi nevah bun di lanlaad wen wi run riat all owevah brixtan wen we mash—up plenty police van wen wi mash—up di wicked wan plan wen wi mash—up di swamp eighty wan dem seh wi commandeer cyar an wi ghadah ammunishan we bill wi barricade an di wicked ketch afraid wi sen out wi scout fog oh fine dem whereabout den wi faam—up wi passi an wi mek wi raid well now dem run gaah goh plan countah—ackshan but di plastic bullit an di waatah cannan will bring a blam—blam will bring a blam—blam nevah mind scarman will bring a blam—blam." thank you very much forthat, linton. and you say you wrote that

in response to the new cross fire in london, which in 1981 was followed by the riots, the protests in brixton in south london. and i should say to you that one conservative newspaper, the spectator, at the time, said of your poems, written obviously in patois english, that "they wreaked havoc in schools and helped to create a generation of rioters and illiterates". he chuckles. i'm sure you're familiar with that kind of criticism, but nevertheless, how do you respond to it? i felt rather flattered that the spectator should see it fit to give me space on their precious pages, you know? i felt that if this, um... ..if this magazine that represents right—wing opinions is saying those things about me, then i'm doing something right. how important is it for your sense

of identity to write in the jamaican patois? in wanting to write verse, i reached a stage where i decided that an important criteria has to be authenticity of voice. so rather than an affectation of, you know, the canon of english poetry, i would write in the everyday spoken language that i was used to. and i was influenced in that way of thinking by the caribbean artists movement, which was founded by some remarkable west indian intellectuals — the historian kamau brathwaite, the poet and publisherjohn la rose, the jamaican broadcaster and novelist andrew salkey. and they were all about autonomy of aesthetics, that they should tease out — or rather, we should tease out —

our own aesthetics rather than seeking validation from our old colonial masters. all right. you said just a little while ago that when you came to the uk thinking you were going to be embraced by the mother country, as you saw it, that actually it made you feel more caribbean, and yet you say you feel at home in england as well as injamaica, so how do you reconcile the two? well, i've.... england has changed over the years and i would like to think that my generation played a part in changing england. and in changing england, we've changed ourselves. i have certain emotional ties to jamaica. um... i see myself as a jamaican. i still have... i've retained myjamaican identity, but i'm british, you know? i mean, let's face it, we have to face up to facts, i'm british. i've spent the vast majority of my life in this country and, um... yeah. i should just say that you also

put your poetry to music. in 1977, you were given the opportunity by richard branson, the businessman who had a record label, that you could actually put your poetry to music. later on, you had your own record company and so on. you worked as a journalist and tv presenter also. how important was it for you to reach an audience beyond the british caribbean one? very important because you want to share your story with other people and you want to build solidarity. and the only way you can build solidarity is if other people are able to understand what you've been through, what you're going through, and maybe find some common ground. so here you've got your new book which has come out, called time come, and it's a selection of your prose over 50 years of work. 0r thereabouts. 0r thereabouts, yeah. it's a collection of my various

writings spanning five decades. but don't you want to be relevant today? well, i think i'm still relevant. but in what way? because you yourself said britain has changed. i think some of the things that i've spoken about over the years are still pertinent to... ..to what's happening today. i mean, i talk about racism. it hasn't gone away. um... hasn't gone away. i mean, and you do say racism is very much part of the cultural dna of this country. but, come on, huge progress has been made in race relations now, hasn't it? the progress that we've made really is to integrate ourselves into british society because there were huge barriers to integration. when i was a youngster, there was something called a colour bar. there were places you couldn't go. and through our struggles, through building autonomous organisations, through our uprisings

and insurrections, we've been able to successfully integrate ourselves into british society. we had to fight to do that. we have achieved that and that is a huge change. so why do you still say that racism is very much part of the cultural dna of this country? you yourself have just said... i mean, look at our government — four of the highest offices in the land are held by people of colour. under the former prime minister, liz truss, we had seven. there are none in germany, spain, portugal, just two minor ministerial posts in france. the united kingdom is doing pretty well. well, we're ahead of europe, for sure... yeah. but that's good, isn't it? that's good. i'm not saying that's bad, but it doesn't mean that, you know, we've reached the end of the road. there are enormous challenges

still out there for us to confront. like what, though? like institutional racism that permeates every major institution in this country, from the police force... i think there was a recent report by baroness... yes, there was, by baroness louise casey in march, which looked into the police. and that was the fourth or fifth one over a period of about a0 years that arrived at the same conclusion — the judicial system, the health service... yeah. but the government is... ..education. yeah, well, let's look at police and the legal system because, i mean, the government is trying to get to grips with this problem. and louise casey, you're quite right, said in her review that there was institutional racism, misogyny and homophobia in the police force. the metropolitan police commissioner of london, sir mark rowley, would not accept the term "institutional racism", which he says has become politicised and ambiguous, but he did accept that there are

systemic failings that create bias. so, i mean, his words matter, surely? and also, wejudge him by the actions. commissioners of police have been saying all these kind of things, you know, for years, but nothing seems to change. there is a deep culture embedded, culture of impunity within the metropolitan police force and other institutions in this country. i don't know how we're going to achieve real meaningful change. are we going to have another commission... a commission of inquiry that makes recommendations and then we're back to square one? i accept that it may be difficult to do something about it, but if you look at the stop—and—search disparity between the black and white ethnic groups in the uk, it's decreased substantially from nearly nine times higher in the year ending march 2020 to five times higher two years later. well, it shouldn't be... it shouldn't be five times higher, should it? but, i mean, there's progress. you've got to accept that it's going in the right direction,

the movement of travel. another one, we've got an overhaul in the legal system. thejustice minister mike freer says the goals are broader. "..legal profession...in breaking down barriers and boosting eligibility is important as we recruit more diverse judges." yes, well, let's wait and see what happens, because i'm all for having, you know, judges from ethnic minorities or whatever, but will that change anything, you know? but what can we do to change it? if they're in situ... i don't have the solutions. positive discrimination? i don't believe in positive discrimination. as i said to someone the other day, james brown, the american soul singer, had a tune called say it loud — i'm black and i'm proud, and he has a line where he says, "i don't want nobody to give me nothing. open up the doors, i'll get it myself." but does it really work? cos i'm just going to go back to the police, tell you what neil basu, who's a senior police officer

of indian heritage, says. "the dial has barely moved on recruiting black and ethnic minority officers." he says, "black men and women don't want to join, and if they do, it's harderfor them to get promoted." you can't just sit there, open the door and just hope that something will happen. you need to perhaps push it, don't you? yes. and successive governments have failed... ..to take the initiative to bring about the fundamental changes that are needed. should the black community perhaps be more receptive tojoining the police force and wanting to change things from within, like neil basu? um... people willjoin the police force. i don't think they're going to be joining in huge numbers, but they need to set their house in order first before, you know, your average young black person could think, "well, this is a place where i could

have a meaningful career." so when i asked you whether you deal with contemporary issues in your new book time come, i'm thinking of the windrush scandal. of course, that was the big ship on which many caribbean immigrants came to the united kingdom and, in 2018, we had in the uk what was called the windrush scandal, when people of caribbean origin were either detained, deported or threatened with deportation. the british prime minister at the time, theresa may, apologised, although we still see that only a fraction of people have received the compensation that they were promised. it's about 13% out of 11,500 eligible claimants. but have you tackled that topic in any shape or form? not in the book, no. i don't even like to use the word "windrush" generation because it's a misleading term. there was one ship called the windrush that had caribbean migrants on it, but there were ships before and after.

and, you know, a lot of people, black people in this country are excluded from... ..you know, under this windrush umbrella. i think the government is very cynical by, you know, giving us windrush day, and all these sort of windrush events is an attempt to mollify the black community and to cover up the shameful... ..the shameful way that they've dealt with people from my parents�* generation. sure. it didn't play very well, naturally, the scandal, in the caribbean, and we've seen now with the commonwealth where there are 56 countries, 15 of them have king charles as head of state. but jamaica, where you were born, is set on the path to becoming a republic. in 2022, an opinion poll said 56% are in favour of becoming a republic. would you welcome such a move? i would welcome such a move.

i think it's... ..it�*s ridiculous that in the 21st century, um... ..the king of england or the queen of england should be the head of any independent state. are you saying that wearing your british hat or yourjamaican hat? both. they chuckle. 0h, right, 0k. so clearly your republican views very much there. but what about the commonwealth, which is, of course, a different matter? jamaica's not discussing leaving the commonwealth, but what about the commonwealth's future? because people are beginning to question it. for example, professor philip murphy at london university says, "i think perhaps the commonwealth has historically run its course and what you're really seeing now is the ghost of an organisation." does that have any relevance, in your view? i don't know. it seems to be a club of former colonies that enables britain

to have status in the global... ..in global affairs as an ex—colonial power. but the geopolitical map is changing all the time and has changed significantly after the end of the cold war, so how relevant the commonwealth will be in the future, i really don't know. all right. you talk of status and, actually, you are a poet of great status. you, more than 20 years ago, were the second poet and the first black poet ever to get your works published in penguin's modern classics, a huge recognition of your achievements. how did that make you feel? did you feel part of the establishment, in a way? not at all. but i was amused by the expression of outrage by the gatekeepers of the english literary canon that i had been published in the penguin modern classics list.

you know, the story... it was a story on the front page of the daily telegraph. which is a right—of—centre newspaper. the right—of—centre newspaper. and i thought, "my god, are they serious, really?" i never, ever set out to seek validation from the gatekeepers of the english literary canon. i was always a part of the alternative poetry scene in this country. right. finally, and very briefly, you've described yourself as a member of the rebel generation. how would you describe the current generation of black britons? um... the black lives matter generation. they have a greater sense of belonging than i...than my generation ever did. and they don't have to fight some of the battles that my generation had to fight, and i'm very hopeful for the future. linton kwesijohnson, thank you very much indeed

for coming on hardtalk. thank you. hello there. compared with some of the often dull and rather cool weather we've had so far this spring, things have turned a little bit warmer. but there is nothing that we would call a heat wave on the way. certainly not technically speaking, because to get a heat wave in the uk, we need to see temperatures exceeding these thresholds which vary depending on where you are for three consecutive days or more. and we're not expecting temperatures to be as high as that. values in the high teens or low 20 celsius though,

will feel quite pleasant if you get yourself into some sunshine and there will be some of that. certainly a lot of dry weather thanks to high pressure, this area of high pressure centred out in the atlantic and then nosing its way in towards our shores. but around the top of the high, that's where we'll be bringing the winds from. not a particularly warm wind direction. and also we will see some cloud filtering in across scotland and northern ireland through the day on tuesday with some spots of drizzle perhaps for england and wales, some patchy cloud, very small chance for a shower, but the majority will be dry. a slightly cooler day, actually. 13 to 20 degrees should pretty much cover it, cover it with the temperatures. and then as we move on into wednesday, well, high pressure still close by. it mayjust retreat a little bit, allowing this frontal system into the north of scotland. that front will push its way southwards, but it will be weakening all the while. so not much rain on it. just a band of cloud.

will be quite breezy in the north, 11 degrees for lerwick, 1a for stornoway come further south, newcastle, cardiff, london, highs of 21 degrees. now that weather front�*s just dying away. 0ur area of high pressure still with us building perhaps more strongly as we get into thursday. so this means a lot of fine weather, some spells of sunshine, only the very small chance of catching a shower. always some areas of cloud toppling around that area of high pressure temperatures again in the north of scotland, 11 to 13 degrees. but further south, cardiff, london, plymouth, up to 22. and then for friday, very similar sort of day, patchy cloud and sunny spells perhaps a bit more of a breeze for some of these eastern coasts that could peg the temperatures back here. a little highest values further west at 2021, maybe 22 degrees. this is the outlook for saturday. again, high pressure will be close by, but we will see another frontal system trying to ease into the north west of scotland cloud and a little bit of rain with that. but generally speaking, another fine, dry and relatively warm day,

18 to 21 degrees for most of us. now through the weekend, high pressure will still be with us, but the shape of this high will be changing. and depending on exactly where high pressure becomes centred, and it may be that there are two centres, one over the continent, one in the atlantic. well, the shape of that high pressure system will determine just how warm it's going to be. it will determine where the winds will be coming from. there will be some quite warm air in place across the continent and some computer weather models want to bring that in our direction. others, i have to say, do keep things a little bit cooler. so there is some uncertainty about the temperatures as we head into next week. but it does look likely that we will continue to see values getting into the low to perhaps middle 20 celsius. we could see highs of 23 or 2a degrees, which would feel pleasantly warm in any sunshine, but would not technically qualify as a heat wave. bye for now.

welcome to newsday, reporting live from singapore, i'm mariko 0i. the headlines. russian authorities say ukrainian sabateurs have crossed into their country and attacked a village. but ukraine says russian fighters did it themselves. britain's former deputy prime minister announces he's to leave parliament at the next general election. expanding america's military footprint in the pacific — the us signs a security pact with papua new guinea. 16 years on, portuguese police are preparing to search a reservoir in connection with the disappearance of british girl, madeleine mccann. and the princess of wales joins the king and queen at the opening day of the chelsea flower show