this is bbc news. we'll have the headlines and all the main news stories for you at the top of the hour, as newsday continues straight after hardtalk. welcome to hardtalk, from south africa. i'm stephen sackur, and this is the south african parliament in cape town, dominated since 1994 by the african national congress. but could the anc�*s grip on power he loosened? well, the once unthinkable mayjust be possible.

the anc has been damaged by economic stagnation, a protracted energy crisis, and massive inequality. my guest today is the leader of the biggest opposition party, the democratic alliance, john steenhuisen. could he become south africa's first white leader since apartheid? john steenhuisen, welcome to hardtalk. great to be with you, stephen. well, it's great to be here in cape town. let's start with a very simple question. when you said not so long ago, "there is a changing of the guard coming in south africa, the anc�*s decline is terminal. it's just a matter of how fast," did you really believe that? of course i believed it then.

i think it's a fair assessment about where the anc find themselves — in the last local government elections, in 2021, they, for the first time in post—democratic south africa, lost their majority and fell below 50%. this obviously allied with the fact that our economy's not growing, we've got 30 million people living in poverty, 12 million people unemployed, and loadshedding, rolling blackouts, which have reached into every home and switched off the lights, switched off our factories, and switched off our economy. south africans are realising that if they don't change the way they vote, south africa is going to end up in a very, very dark place, and it's going to be poverty and inequality deepening. well, in that bleak context that you've just outlined, with the unemployment, what they call here "loadshedding", the rolling power cuts, the massive economic problems, how is it that the main opposition party, your party, the democratic alliance,

is actually finding its vote share going down? well, i think that one needs to look, particularly at the last election, the 2021 election, as somewhat of an outlier election, given the fact it took place in the midst of covid. it took place after serious bouts of litigation. but if one looks at how the da has grown since then, up to 27% in the polls, one looks at some of the by—election results in places like khayelitsha... well, i did look at the recent by—election results, because polls are one thing, but actual results are another. and in a whole host of by—elections, you actually haven't managed to take seats from the anc. in ten recent by—elections, the anc retained seven key seats. so, you're not making the breakthroughs that you have promised for years. but i think you've got to look at the growth of the opposition there — so let's take this khayelitsha by—election, which took place in overstrand, the da went from 12% in 2021 to over 30% in this election. the langa by—election, where the da increased

its percentage by around 7—8%, the opposition is growing and the anc share of the vote is retreating. i'm going to be blunt with you. isn't the problem that the democratic alliance isn't making a big breakthrough? isn't the problem in the end, mr steenhuisen, down to you? no, it's not. you're the wrong leaderfor this party? absolutely not, and 83% of the party who've just voted me and re—elected me as another term leader would disagree. i think that we've seen a stabilisation of the da under my leadership. we got 19% in the last general election. i inherited a party sitting at 16% in the polls. the party is now sitting 25—27% with nobody talking... well, you're a man who likes polls. do you know what your current approval rating is amongst black voters? i don't watch those types of opinion polls. well, i'll tell you, it's stuck at around 7% approval amongst black voters.

that is a fundamental problem for you. well, i think that, stephen, you've got to look at the votes that people cast for a party. the majority of people who vote for the da are not white south africans, and it's broken up roughly into thirds — a third black voters, a third white voters, and a third mixed—race voters. i understand that. and that is why... i think it is fair to say you are still seen by many south africans, particularly black south africans — the very big majority of people in this country — you are seen in the democratic alliance as a fundamentally white party. and the reason is pretty obvious. for example, 62% of your current parliamentarians are white, in a country where just 7%, or 8% of the overall population is white. this is a structural problem for you, is it not? i would disagree with you fundamentally. i think we have by far the most diverse party

caucus out of any party represented in parliament. and you turn on the parliamentary channel to see the parties to the left and right of the da are virtually monochromatic. and there in the da — white, black, indian, mixed race, hindus, christians, muslims, and jews coming together around a common set of values and principles. but here's the thing, there are over 600 parties on the ballot paper in south africa. the majority of them are led by black south africans. why is it, then, that a party led by a white south african is sitting at 22—25% in the polls? people are looking beyond race towards competence, ability to get things done, and being able to deliver. that's the game in town, and that's going to be the game at the next election, particularly with the spectre of loadshedding on the horizon. mpho phalatse was the mayor ofjohannesburg — she was ousted quite recently, but she's a medical doctor, she has a track record of doing

amazing work in the poorer parts ofjohannesburg. she ran against you as leader. she is a black woman. you are a white man. does it never enter your head that perhaps your party would have greater appeal if somebody like mpho phalatse was leading the democratic alliance? but we've been down that road before, stephen. and you interviewed mr maimane when he was the leader of the democratic alliance, and we ended up with the worst result we'd had at a national election since then, which shows that race doesn't matter. what matters is the ability to be able to make a compelling argument to people. i was also elected — i defeated ms phalatse with a very, very big majority at a congress that was overwhelmingly made up of delegates who are not white south africans. they were looking for the person who could best land the party's message and get thejob done. in a way, though, this isn't just about the personalities. it is about the message the democratic alliance is sending to the people

of south africa. if i may paraphrase your message, it seems to be you want a post—racial form of politics, and you do not want, for example, economic management to include concepts like affirmative action, a government intervening to make sure that black south africans, for example, are fully represented in corporate boards or at every level of the business structure of south africa. many black people, even inside your own party, fundamentally disagree with that notion of a party which, in a sense, is race—blind. key figures in your party who disagree with that position have felt forced to leave. for example, herman mashaba — he was a very successful democratic alliance politician. i believe he was mayor ofjohannesburg. he left the party saying, i quote, "i cannot reconcile myself with a group of people who believe that race

is irrelevant in the discussion of inequality and poverty in south africa." that's very different to what he says in those various books that he's written, and his now professed commitment to non—racialism. people come and go in politics, the policies and values remain. 0ur alternative to these race—based policies of the anc, which have only delivered widening inequality, greater unemployment, and a worse deal for black south africans, is focusing on poverty and focusing on lifting people out of that poverty and into some form of opportunity by focusing very, very clearly on the opportunity side of the economy. the anc�*s focus over the last 30 years has been on the trying to manage inequality of outcomes. it hasn't worked, and they've neglected the opportunity to the point where eight out of ten grade four students

at the age of ten cannot read. taking the government out and allowing the market, as you seem to want to do, allowing the market to sort of naturally find a new equity in this country, where's your evidence that would work? but that's not what the da's proposition is at all. 0ur proposition is there does need to be intervention, and there do need to be policies that focus on redress. we come from a divided past with an abhorrent history of racial segregation and division, and a lack of opportunity. you would be crazy not to have policies that focused on that redress. 0ur redress policy is our focus on the area where they are needed the most, which is poverty. and if you focus your policies there, 99.87% of the people who are beneficiaries of those are black south africans. africa confidential, a respected analytical magazine, describes your party as, quote, "ultra light on policy." they don't see the specifics that can help you actually get south africa of the profound economic mess it's in today. well, they're clearly not reading the policies properly. they're available, we have the most comprehensive policy suite out of any party.

but i would say, go beyond the policies and look at where it really matters — where we govern. look at what we've been able to do in the western cape. 98% of all net newjobs in south africa in the last quarter were created here in the da—run western cape. the other eight provinces accounted for 2%. the da knows how to get the economy working, we know how to get people intojobs, and the numbers prove that. unemployment here in the western cape is the lowest. in da—run midvaal, in gauteng, it is the lowest in gauteng. where the da governs, our policies and clean, accountable government get people into work, but most importantly, deliver services. yeah, and also, it should be said about cape town, a paper written a couple of years ago by three academics described cape town as widely considered to be south africa's most segregated city. not true. that's the democratic

alliance at work. no, that's not true. and if you... well, it is true. i'm just quoting a piece from that academic paper. that's fundamentally not true. and if you look at africa check, which did a far more recent study, shows that, in fact, cape town is the least unequal. now, look, all south african cities, still subject... i've just spent days actually recording in khayelitsha. it's a sprawling township which is home to, we don't even know how many people because it's impossible to say for sure, but more than one million people, and they are living in absolute poverty. they are living in shacks, they don't have access to clean water, they don't have indoor toilets. and, perhaps most fundamentally of all, many of them do not havejobs, or any prospect of ever getting a job. that's right here in cape town. but here's the thing, stephen. there's no south african city that is immune to the inequality, both spatially and economically, that existed during apartheid. but as president biden said,

"show me your budget, and i will show you what your priorities are." cape town has just passed a record infrastructure budget. 75% of that budget is going directly into addressing service delivery backlogs. the basket of free basic services to assist people, like free water, free electricity, zero rates is far more comprehensive than any other city in the country. are we there yet in dealing with it? absolutely not. but we're much further down the line than a country or city likejohannesburg or ethekwini, or east london, or any one of the other cities. what people want most of all, and you've alluded to it already, is power. correct. now, president ramaphosa says he is busting every sinew to ensure that he addresses the loadshedding crisis. he's appointed a special energy and electricity minister to work night and day on it. he, for a while, declared a state of disaster, which allowed him special powers. we now know that he's commissioning three turkish

powerships to be moored off the coast of south africa to provide new sources of energy. you've opposed, consistently opposed all of these special measures that ramaphosa is taking. well, i think that because they're not designed to deal with the problem, they're designed to provide more opportunity for anc looting and corruption to take place. what we have been doing is demonstrating the alternative, that we can have clean, renewable energy in south africa, and not only can we meet this challenge, we can become a world leader in clean, renewable energy. and we're doing it here in the city of cape town, and in the province of the western cape. this city will be the first city to be loadshedding—free. we already have incentivisation for solar panels, where people can feed electricity back into the grid and be reimbursed for it. we're putting investment into lithium ion batteries and storage facilities... but why oppose powerships, which literally can sit off

the coast and provide enormous new source of energy, electricity for the people who, right now, are sitting every evening in candlelight? we oppose them because the 20—year contract that this government wants to sign with those... no, you don't know that. you say they want a 20—year contract. the government hasn't yet shown you the contract that it's hoping to sign. yes, of course they have. gwede mantashe made those contracts public, which is why there was such a public outcry about it, and why the environmentalists and others are opposing them. they wanted a 20—year contract at a fixed price. it doesn't make economic sense for south africa. we should rather be harnessing the 8.5 billion rand that's been provided by western countries to be able to allow us to make this transition into renewable energy, and become a world leader in this particular field. you constantly talk about the degree of corruption that the anc government has brought to south africa. does it concern you that

corruption is also a problem in those areas controlled locally by your democratic alliance party? for example, corruption watch says it's received 125 corruption reports concerning cape town in less than a decade. your party is very good at telling the anc it's corrupt. you're not so good at dealing with the allegations, the sleaze inside your own party. that's completely not true. and i think that it is exactly the juxtaposition with the way we handle those matters when they occur, to the governing party that shows the difference. there is no organisation in the world — i would advance the bbc itself — who can insulate it against people who join the organisation and don't live up to the values and principles. i think you judge an organisation on how it deals with those when it happens. none of those individuals remain in office. they've been dealt with decisively, they've been moved out — unlike the president, who still has the architects

of state capture sitting around the cabinet table with them. we take action, and i think we should be judged on that. you have also made a big stand on foreign policy. you have accused cyril ramaphosa of cosying up to vladimir putin. you say you would take a very different approach. you made a very high—profile trip last year yourself to kyiv. is your message to south africans that they need to reorient south africa's foreign policy away from the brics, that sort of close alliance with russia, china, india, brazil, and cosy up to the united states? well, we need western countries to continue to invest in south africa. the uk, the united — sorry, the european union, and the united states account for 77% of all foreign direct investment into south africa. juxtapose that with the 6.2% from china and russia. it makes no economic or pragmatic sense for

south africa to be aligning itself with groups when our overwhelming benefits come from the western countries. what's clearly... well, i don't know if you've seen polls, but there are plenty of polls over the last year which have asked south africans, "who do you sympathise with more — russia, china, the brics, or the united states?" and a majority actually say the bric nations. well, i've seen the economist poll which says very clearly that 71% of south africans do not support this government's position on the conflict in ukraine and russia. and i think that that is very, very clear that the majority of south africans are freedom—loving people who want to be on the right side of this particular argument. and siding with war criminals and with a country that accounts for less trade than one of our less—developed neighbours doesn't make sense. the government here has launched an investigation

into an allegation, which originally came from the us ambassador in south africa, that a russian ship had docked in simonstown, a south african port, and allegedly had been loaded with weapons coming from south africa. the government has denied that it knew this was happening, but it has launched an investigation. if it turns out that weapons were loaded onto that vessel, what do you think that should mean for the anc government? well, i think it should at the very least mean individualised sanctions against those involved. but i think there'll be serious geopolitical consequences for africa and south africa if those allegations prove to be true. i happen to think they are true. that we have been supplying arms to russia. and i believe that the nexus between the russian money and the anc is what lies at the heart of that. let's return, before we end, to domestic politics. you are, i noticed from your office, you've got a lot of pictures ofjohn f kennedy. he is, of course — one of the things he's remembered for is his commitment to the moon—shot, getting

the united states to the moon. you have used that phrase "moon—shot" and talked about how important it is to you, in your strategic vision, to develop a moon—shot pact of all the main opposition parties to bring down the anc. i would put it to you that since you launched that moon—shot, it's been something of a damp squib. most of the senior leaders of opposition parties are saying they are not ready tojoin a pact led by you in the democratic alliance. well, first of all, the pact won't be led by me. we're just creating the enabling environment for the pact to come together. and quite the opposite — we've had several very good meetings with 11 party leaders around the country who have indicated a commitment to getting to a convention where we can decide about how we'll work together. the next election will come probably in about a year from now, the obvious way in which you in the democratic alliance could get your hands on at least some power

is to accept that you may have to join a coalition with either the anc — maybe, you could do that — or maybe withjulius malema's radical economic freedom fighters party. are you prepared to say to me that you would consider, in certain circumstances a coalition with either? no. the non—anc—eff opposition vote wasjust 15 points short of being able to come up with a majority. my focus over the next 15 months is going to be on the moon—shot pact, getting like—minded opposition... could you ever work with the anc? no, i don't think we could work with the anc, not in their current form. and again, my focus is on completely... no, i know what your focus is on, but in the end, you will have to accept what the voters say. the anc is still likely to emerge as, by far, the biggest party. well, i think we'd have to see what those cards said at the time, but if that was the case, we would obviously have to go back to our voters and ask them how they want us to proceed. but right now, my focus is on uniting the opposition,

getting everybody to work together to build a new majority that'll get the anc out of power, and to get south africa onto a new trajectory of prosperity and hope. right, you make that sound like a positive agenda. actually, it seems to me you're peddling a very negative and fear—filled agenda, because you seem to be telling the south african people if they vote either for the anc or the economic freedom fighters in the next election, to use your own phrase, they are going to create "a doomsday scenario which will make the collapse of zimbabwe look like a dress rehearsal and leave all south africans destitute". that's fear mongering. that's not fear mongering. it's telling people the honest truth. if one looks at the eff�*s policies and everywhere they've been applied in the world, whether it's venezuela, zimbabwe, or cuba, they've only caused further unemployment, further misery, further hunger, and further poverty. you talk about "plunging the country into ethnic

and racial conflict the likes of which it has never witnessed before" — don't you need to be a little bit careful about your language? no... you are suggesting that south africa right now is on the very edge of the most frightening abyss. i would say absolutely, that's being truthful to voters. because if the anc and the eff do tie up, and having seen how extractive the eff have been on the anc from the opposition benches, dragging them down the rabbit hole of expropriation without compensation, nationalisation of the reserve bank, all of these ridiculous, barmy policies — imagine how terrifying it'll be when the anc would rely on them for their votes to be able to secure a majority. i just want to be clear what you're saying — we saw, less than two years ago, we saw terrible street violence in south african cities. durban in particular was very badly hit. we saw dozens of people killed. we saw guns being used on the streets. are you suggesting to me that you believe right now,

in the political atmosphere we have in south africa, south africa is very close to seeing notjust that level of street violence, but something much worse? i'm saying to you that if the anc and eff policies continue to be applied and get accelerated down the socialist marxist chavez road that the eff will insist upon, poverty is going to get deeper, hunger is going to increase, unemployment is going tojump dramatically as disinvestment and capital flight takes place in south africa. that can only make the situation more febrile in south africa than it has ever been before. at that point, we have to end, butjohn steenhuisen, thank you very much for being on hardtalk. thank you.

hello. you need a certain level of temperature to make clouds. and on thursday, that temperature was 17 degrees. from a blue sky, sunny start to the day across the yorkshire area. so as we hit 17, we started to get these cumulus clouds. as the air started to rise, it had a layer of warm air higher up in the earth's atmosphere and that cloud then started to spread out. and by the time we got to the early afternoon it turned pretty cloudy and that kind of thing you can see happening here on the satellite picture from thursday, look how this area of cloud just expands through the course of the afternoon, showing you that because probably going to see a similar sort of thing happening on friday as well. now, right now, quite a few patches of cloud still across areas of lincolnshire. otherwise, for most of us we've got clear skies and temperatures around seven to nine degrees celsius now on friday.

for many of us, it's going to be a sunny start to the day with those blue skies with us first thing in the morning, late morning, that's when we hit 17 degrees. that's when we start to see clouds develop. and i think probably parts of yorkshire again prone to seeing some of those clouds spreading across the skies. same to probably across parts of the north midlands, northwest scotland have a bit more cloud, a few more breaks for northern ireland for most. so it's a dry day with sunny spells and temperatures still into the low twenties and the warmer spots. it will feel pleasant if you're outside well into the weekend. we do have a cold front that's going to be running into our area of high pressure that will be affecting northern areas. so expect more in the way of cloud for scotland. a bit of patchy rain too for 0rkney, shetland, the western isles and the highlands too. and this air flowing into north scotland, it's actually quite chilly. so temperatures just 12 degrees through the afternoon in lerwick on saturday. further south, more sunshine and if anything it's going to be a warmer day with more of us seeing temperatures into the low twenties,

probably peaking at around 23 or 2a degrees heading into sunday. the high pressure is still there. and again, it's a case of sunny spells coming and going with the cloud. the highest temperatures continue to be across more western areas. so south and east wales, the south west midlands, south west england, highs could hit around 23 or 2a degrees, but otherwise starting to turn just a little bit cooler across northern and eastern areas. that's the case as well for bank holiday monday. temperatures just down a few degrees, but still feeling warm in that strong may sunshine. that's nice weather, but for now.

welcome to newsday, reporting live from singapore, i'm mariko 0i. the headlines. after 8 months of fighting in the ukrainian town of bakhmut, wagner group mercenaries say they're pulling out. we are handing over positions to the military, ammunition, positions, everything. including food rations. the capitol hil riots in washington. a far right leader gets 18 years injail — the longest sentence yet. police in london arrest a man, after a car is driven into the gates of downing street. the incident is not being treated as terror—related. and dire straits frontman, mark knopfler —