this is bbc news. we'll have the headlines and all the main news stories for you at the top of the hour, straight after this programme. hello, everybody. a very warm welcome to this special edition of talking business weekly with me, aaron heslehurst. let's go and take a look at what's on the show. i'm here in rabat — it's the capital of morocco — to look at this country's potential to solve europe's energy crisis. this north african country is making the most of its abundant sunshine and wind to lead the way in renewable energy. but the question is, can morocco turn itself around from being dependent on, well, this — imported fossil fuels — to being able to export clean energy to europe as we tackle climate change? it's an ambitious plan so i'm

going to be discussing all of that with these three experts. there they are. the big boss of one of africa's largest renewable energy companies, an energy expert from the world bank, and a leading moroccan environmental campaigner. also on the show, i'm going to sit down with the moroccan government minister tasked with the mighty challenge of making sure everything is in place for this country to enjoy the abundant wind and sunshine whilst transforming its economy. wherever you'rejoining me from around the world, once again a big hello and a warm welcome to the show — and, i tell you what, it's certainly warm here in morocco�*s capital of rabat. in fact, this is a country that's trying to make the most of its natural resources, including the sunshine, to solve one of the biggest problems on the planet — energy. that's because everyone wants more of it and, of course, we want to play less for it. as we know, the war in ukraine has led to big increases in our energy bills at home

as well as the cost of running a business and politicians, they're are trying to work out where it's all going to come from in the long term. did you know that making electricity is the single biggest contributor to global warming? but last year, 39% of the global supply came from clean sources, such as wind, solar and nuclear? that's the highest it's ever been. of that, a combined 12% came from wind and solar, and it's in wind and solar that morocco is betting the farm on — and other countries in the region of watching very closely. this north african country, it has an ambitious target of generating 52% of its own electricity from renewables by 2030. it also wants to hugely expand its exports. there are plans to a cable to send electricity to the uk, and, as the eu invests billions, to the rest of the world as well. here's the problem. at the moment, morocco depends on imports for 90%

of its energy needs. that includes, well, electricity as well as other things such as fuel for vehicles, and most of that is dirty fossil fuels. morocco�*s energy transformation, it has to be said, it's been happening at quite a pace over the last few years — but it needs to get faster still if it's to meet its ambitious targets. so i pulled together some of the country's leading thinkers to find out what happens next. so with me now is moundir zniber, the big boss of gaia energy — it's the largest renewables company in morocco — but also a company that develops wind, solar and green hydrogen developments across africa. alsojoining us, the leader energy expert for the region at the world bank. and last but certainly not least, an activist with the mediterranean youth climate network, also board member for the moroccan alliance for climate and sustainable development.

all three of you, an absolute pleasure having you on my show. thanks for your time. and moundir, let's start with you, because morocco, here we are in the heart of rabat. morocco is your home country. over the last 15 years, you've been spending a lot of money, investing a lot of money in renewable projects, so let me ask you this — not only morocco but across africa, but if we just look at morocco, moundir, paint me brief picture of some of the developments that you're involved in, and, more importantly, why morocco? why does this country seem to be one of the countries leading the charge in renewable energy? morocco has truly one of the best solar and wind resources in the world, combined, and it is very special. so you know that we don't have oil, wer don't have natural gas, but we have a potential that is just amazing. this is the first reason — it'sjust a resource reason. this is the only resource morocco has. so embrace it. yeah, we need to embrace it and we have done and we have launched very ambitious programmes in order to capture this energy. but, also, morocco somehow is a bridge. it's a cultural bridge,

historically, between the south countries and the northern countries, between, you know... between africa and europe. africa and europe, of course. you know, it has a very special place, and more than that, today i think morocco represents the best opportunity to get out european — you know, from the dependency it has today from russian gas, because the resource we have here could be one of the big, big answers, part of the answer of the european demand. so coming back to our activities, we are working on very large—scale projects. wind, but on—shore. then we have, let's say, medium—sized infrastructure projects between 50 to 200 mw, pv and wind, and then you have the most, let's say, smaller ones between 1—3 mw and it's more, kind of, rooftop business. let me come to you, moez, because the world bank's assessment suggests that despite the — and let's be clear, right,

the enormous costs involved in moving to a low—carbon economy — the world bank says that this is actually going to help and grow the moroccan economy. just briefly explain that. the energy transition in morocco effectively involves a shift from heavy reliance on imported fossil fuels to renewable energy and therefore decoupling from this very heavy volatility of the prices of fossil fuels so this is the first benefit. secondly, the world bank we did a study of climate developed dell might develop we estimated energy transition would generate at least 28,000 newjobs on a net basis per year which is about per

year which is about 90% per year which is about 9% of the job benefit here in morocco. the third benefit in the most important is how morocco can position itself as an industrial hub for investment and exports of green industrial products. for example, fertilisers, the car industry. haja, fabulous, some will say fabulous ambitions, right? how do you balance these incredible additions with the fact that still to this day you are importing dirty fossilfuels. there is a great ambition and an effective one that starts many years in morocco with energy transition but there are concerns about the rhythm of the implementation of the strategies and i think we lost a few years to speed up this transition but we are seeing now some premises and some promises also from the government

that this transition will be speeded up very quickly. but there are tenders and contacts out there for offshore natural gas drilling and yet they've got this huge ambition to be a renewable energy nation. morocco set the target of 52% but didn't talk much about the rest of it. from my perspective it is very controversial as we cannot really mix the two kinds of energies going towards a clean pathway and at the same time a dirty one. yet the gas now is commercialised and presented as cleaner, the most clean fossil so far but this is not true when we all know that.

it is very dirty, a dirty fossilfuel. we will be tending to invest in heavy infrastructure and it is very expensive. 50% is the renewable mix but it is not the renewable production so if we come to produce electricity, it is very far from 52%, we are more at 20%. then when we take oil, let's be very clear — we cannot accuse morocco and it is a global addiction. absolutely, but morocco is putting itself out in the global stage as a renewable nation... we cannot replace today fossil fuels by renewables. it is very clear it is impossible and if morocco find gas, it will be very happy to have natural gas because the objective of any country is to have energy sovereignty. this is very important. and we see what is happening today with the war in ukraine. energy sovereignty is in the middle of all the discussions so morocco needs a mix.

renewables are part of the solution on the electrics side. i have 30% reserve because gas is intended in morocco for phasing out coal. still in my view ,we have a lot of potential that we can raise the ambition of renewable energy in morocco more than what is actually done and to lessen this potential. i would be happy, it is more business for us! moundir has a point. you are a climate activist but we can never get away probably from some form of fossil fuels to make up part of this mix. i believe that fossil fuels have no bright future. we are still using it. and we ought to be phasing down and phasing out completely. when you look at the numbers

in terms of co2 emissions, moez, when you look at the numbers in terms of co2 emissions, this wonderful country, the moroccans, they actually are responsible for significantly less than pretty much the whole world. they're below the global average and why with what is happening here is that so important? morocco is a relatively small country on the world stage and is relatively industrialised but not so industrialised, so i think that explains why the contribution to the global carbon emissions are not so high. i wanted to come back to the issue of the energy transition. i think precisely the term transition means that it's going to be a gradual process. i mean, we talk about, and our analysis of the world bank showed you can decarbonise the moroccan economy gradually by the 2050s but this is a fairly long time, right? so right now morocco

is reliant more than 90% on fossil fuels so it will be a gradual process. there may be a role, a transition role for natural gas in that process and then you build up your renewable energy and then because of the intermittency, i mean, the sun is not always shining, the wind is not always blowing, you need to firm it up, you need to invest in storage technology, which is expensive. so this is why it is going to be a gradual process that will happen over two, three, decades and also green hydrogen will play an important role. we know the moroccan government are undertaking a set of reforms just to make business and investment in this country easier. do they go far enough? is it helping you, as a country? it's evolving slowly for us.

we wish it would go faster but when you compare morocco to the rest of the continent, morocco is doing very good. from the world bank's perspective, again, these reforms, do they go far enough to attract foreign investment into morocco? and should other countries to be watching morocco closely? morocco was an early mover in the renewable energy scene but we believe it can go further, definitely. as we were saying, the investments that you will need in renewable energy, in storage, in green hydrogen etc are quite massive and the bulk can indeed come from the private sector. but in order to attract that private sector on such a massive scale, i think the government can and should undertake some reforms, for example...

further reforms? further reforms. in the electricity sector and really make sure that the electricity grid is fully open and well regulated for private sector producers to be will to wheel their power through the grid at a different voltage levels. some efforts can be made at making the cost and the tariffs of electricity, you know, transparent and fully cost reflective, and also the need to develop wholesale markets. so in terms of lessons learned for other developing countries, i would say definitely you need strong political will and direction at the very highest level of the state. this has been a key

strength in morocco. and, secondly, i would say the government has to put in place at the right targets for decarbonisation, the right objectives, and the right policies, you know, to have a good investment environment. but then let the private sector come, take risks, and make technology choices. what is really missing is the liberalisation of the market and i think it is a win—win for everybody. we would have access to the cheapest possible green electricity in the world and green derivatives. because if we liberalise the market in morocco, it not just for morocco, we would be a net exporter of green electrons, green fuels, green hydrogen to europe and the rest of the world. it is a shift, and i wish we there and if we get

there, you would see that morocco will become one of the leaders in the world. let me restate those targets. the moroccan government has this ambition of 52% of morocco's own electricity coming from renewables by 2030 — seven years away! but even his majesty, king mohammed vi, and his government says there is a need to speed things up. is that target achievable? i will give you a must for the audience to understand. don't confuse us. no, i will not confusse you. i will give you numbers for the audience to understand. don't confuse us. no, i will not confusse you. when we speak about green hydrogen, the calculation... the eu has released a very clear road map. it needs 20 million tonnes of green hydrogen from today to 2030. 10 million needs to be imported. those 10 million tonnes of green hydrogen would represent 20 times the installed capacity of electricity in morocco and i will tell you about the projects we are developing

we have a project that would provide a high percentage of all the energy needs of germany and another project will provide 4% of all italy's energy needs. and in terms of green hydrogen we have six projects our company is developing that could answer to 25% of the needs of the eu. what really puzzled me as morocco was my great ambition to provide toxicity from europe and then start shipping to europe and you think why don't you have 100% at home first and then any surplus. what is the business sense behind that? you will bring huge industry end investments of the country. you create jobs. if you have an uptake from a large consumer in europe bankable in 25 years you can easily find a project

and there may be a part you can shift tomorrow and even industries in morocco are not ready to consume green hydrogen so i don't think we should do both and it is to different markets. i believe we should fulfil the good needs domestically rather than exporting it. it is not either or.. you can try to do both. by exporting on as you can say, you can reach a larger scale and reduce the costs so ideally you should do both but morocco has a big young population and he needs to create jobs and value locally and it would be lost if morocco was to use most of its renewable energy and export it rather than develop industry locally i think there would be lost. on that note, a real pleasure.

thank you so much for coming on and good luck with everything and we will check in with you soon. morocco's energy transformation plans were first played out by king mohammed vi back in 2009 and while the huge well of those solar power plants have been up and running since 2016, this government is acutely aware it has its work cut out if it wants to meet its commitment and that commitment the majority of its own electricity coming from renewable sources by 2030. i have come here to catch up with the minister in of making all of that happen. morocco's minister of energy transformation and sustainable development, an absolute pleasure having you on the show. just briefly outline if you will the government's plan when it comes to this energy transition generating renewable sources and also exporting it because that is a big part of the plan, right?

0ur energy strategy is really based on 0ur energy strategy is really based on three pillars, a triangle, and we need to ensure the triangle of the main staple in time. indeed the first pillar of our energy strategy is really ramping up renewables so we can see their target of 22% by 2030. pillar number two is energy efficiency and we have tried to be very efficient in the way we produce, transport and consume energy in the third pillar is regional and international integration in international markets. seven years from now morocco is aiming to have its own electricity, 52% of electricity from renewable sources and that of the tight time and correct me if i'm wrong

but earlier this year you told a session in parliament that there was a need to speed up this transition. what you need to speed up and how are you going to do that? speeding up as a challenge several countries are facing especially countries like morocco who have really progressive and green in their energy strategy so speeding up is related to fur some of the challenges that we are facing internationally. remember, we cannot do this out of a vacuum in the world is just coming out from not only a couple of years of a historic pandemic but a total dislocation of supply change in value chains affecting also renewable energy as well and the way we trade solar panels and windmills and under speeding up democracy and many many countries you notice

because you need to have access to land permits a relatively fast to ensure that investors get access to the opportunities they want. you also need to ensure you put the investment you need on the grid. let me ask you this about something i'm not struggling with but i want your answer. because before you even reach providing your people with 100% renewable electricity before you do that you want to start exporting some of your valuable extra electricity and why do that before providing moroccans with would renewable electricity? 0ur position as today is make sure we have on both sides

as i said earlier, there is a lot of empowerment that comes with trained and it boils down to energy security and energy access more than making sure that we want to expert forms of energy and that is why i take a complete example of how we are monetising some of our resources for example we want to enable investors buy particularly international and private investors to be able to militarise as much as possible was at the same time the priority is to ensure moroccans and people living in morocco and people working in morocco and economic to show

us morocco has access to low—cost economic green energy and the severity number one. correct me if i am wrong here but morocco at the moment has tenders out there to bring natural gas offshore of your coast. that is a fossil fuel. how do you square that with this incredible ambition? for morocco it is a very easy question to us square in morocco, there is no balance to find because morocco has 0s been a net importer. we are not your traditional fossil fuel exporter he would need to balance that with renewable plans for the country. those two bases we are trying to develop, we are trying to push primarily for morocco's domestic meat because we have a power sector today which is gas anything today for energy security the world has realised we need to get away from coal and more polluting heavy fuel and other fossil fuels. we need gas in the system and why do we need gas?

because if we want to exceed 15% of all capacity and renewables need to handle the intensity of renewables in the system. world bank's recent reporter morocco says your government has limited amount of cash to play with and i am just wondering if you believe underfunding is going to be there to fulfil this ambition you have? i really don't think funding is the issue and first we have the other big commitment of the new development model is that government will not be the one investing primarily in infrastructure and energy project especially when those projects are bankable. primarily the private sector. 0ur role as a government

is to ensure we facilitate access of investors to investment opportunities and ensure we take the right time to ensure private sector takes the technology risks and the type of risk they are able to manage. on that point, good luck with everything and i'll check in with the same. thanks for the show and welcome to morocco. that's it for the special edition of the show. we can keep the letters and be busy settle smartphone app and also follow us on twitter. tweet me and i'll tweet you back. you can get me @bbcaaron. thanks for watching. i will see you soon. goodbye.

hello there. it really was a gorgeous day today across england and wales, lots of sunshine around. temperatures in west yorkshire reached 24.3 celsius, making it the warmest day of the year so far. in northern ireland and scotland, we saw more cloud for a while, producing one of two spots of rain. that was mainly due to a very weak weather front — that's heading out into the north sea. following on from that, we've got some cooler air coming around our area of low pressure from the north, so temperatures for many of us a little bit lower on sunday. we start chilly where we've got the clearer skies in eastern areas of scotland. temperatures here could be close to freezing in one or two places. more cloud coming into the north—west, that will be affecting eastern parts of england and into the north sea. sunshine at times in scotland and northern ireland, the cloud coming and going, particularly in the north—west, and with the north—easterly breeze across eastern england, it will push the cloud further west, although hanging on to the best of the sunshine in west wales, western england and along the south coast. but the highest temperatures will be pushed to the south—west this time. it will be cooler further

north and east, and quite a significant drop in temperature on sunday for the north—east of england. but it's still dry, we've got high pressure in charge. the position of the high means that there are stronger winds on monday into shetland, blowing in more cloud, and there is also a stronger east to north—easterly wind affecting southern parts of england, which will make it feel a little bit cooler, probably. and we could blow in some cloud in the morning through the midlands and eastern england, that should break up in the afternoon. lots of sunshine around on bank holiday monday. there is cooler air in place across england and wales, highest temperatures will be further west. in northern ireland and scotland, it is turning a bit warmer on monday, temperatures back into the low 20s. high pressure remains in charge on monday and into tuesday. the position is not really changing very much. light winds for many, but still those stronger winds through the english channel and southern parts of england. with the wind coming in off the north sea, we could see more cloud through much of the day on tuesday for eastern areas of england. always going to be warmer towards the west and the north, temperatures getting into the low 20s. and in scotland, we could see highs of 2a degrees or so on tuesday. and really, all week, we are dominated by high pressure, it is still dry,

sunshine most days, and those temperatures reaching the mid 20s for the middle part of the week.

hi from washington, this is bbc news. air strikes on ukraine's capital as the country's most senior security official says the military is ready to launch its long—expected counter—offensive against russian forces. turkey prepares to go polls in one of the country's most divisive presidential elections. president biden and republican leader kevin mccarthy speak by phone as negotiators continue to seek a deal on us debt talks. hello i'm carl nasman.

thanks forjoining us.