this is bbc news. the headlines: counting is under way in turkey's first ever run—off presidential election. the incumbent president recep tayyip erdogan is hoping to hang on to power after securing 49% of the vote in the first round but it remains too close to call. mr erdogan�*s main rival is the secular opposition leader, kemal kilicdaroglu. he's urged voters to get rid of the authoritarian regime in the country. the white house and us republicans have reached an agreement in principle to raise the government debt limit and avoid a default. the president called the deal "an important step forward" — while the house speaker, kevin mccarthy, said there would be historic reductions

in spending and no new taxes. the british government is discussing plans for supermarkets to introduce a cap on the price of basic food items to help tackle the rising cost of living. now on bbc news, talking business. hello, everybody. a very warm welcome to this special edition of talking business weekly with me, aaron heslehurst. let's go and take a look at what's on the show. i'm here in rabat — it's the capital of morocco — to look at this country's potential to solve europe's energy crisis. this north african country is making the most of its abundant sunshine and wind to lead the way in renewable energy. but the question is, can morocco turn itself around from being dependent on, well, this — imported fossil fuels — to being able to export clean energy to europe as we tackle climate change? it's an ambitious plan so i'm going to be discussing all of that with these three experts.

there they are. the big boss of one of africa's largest renewable energy companies, an energy expert from the world bank, and a leading moroccan environmental campaigner. also on the show, i'm going to sit down with the moroccan government minister tasked with the mighty challenge of making sure everything is in place for this country to enjoy the abundant wind and sunshine whilst transforming its economy. wherever you'rejoining me from around the world, once again a big hello and a warm welcome to the show — and, i tell you what, it's certainly warm here in morocco�*s capital of rabat. in fact, this is a country that's trying to make the most of its natural resources, including the sunshine, to solve one of the biggest problems on the planet —

energy. that's because everyone wants more of it and, of course, we want to play less for it. as we know, the war in ukraine has led to big increases in our energy bills at home as well as the cost of running a business and politicians, they're are trying to work out where it's all going to come from in the long term. did you know that making electricity is the single biggest contributor to global warming? but last year, 39% of the global supply came from clean sources, such as wind, solar and nuclear? that's the highest it's ever been. of that, a combined 12% came from wind and solar, and it's in wind and solar that morocco is betting the farm on — and other countries in the region of watching very closely. this north african country, it has an ambitious target of generating 52% of its own electricity from renewables by 2030. it also wants to hugely expand its exports. there are plans for a cable to send electricity to the uk, and, as the eu invests billions,

to the rest of the world as well. here's the problem. at the moment, morocco depends on imports for 90% of its energy needs. that includes, well, electricity as well as other things such as fuel for vehicles, and most of that is dirty fossilfuels. morocco�*s energy transformation, it has to be said, it's been happening at quite a pace over the last few years — but it needs to get faster still if it's to meet its ambitious targets. so i pulled together some of the country's leading thinkers to find out what happens next. so with me now is moundir zniber, the big boss of gaia energy — it's the largest renewables company in morocco — but also a company that develops wind, solar and green hydrogen developments across africa. alsojoining us, moez cherif, the leader energy expert for the region at the world bank. and last but certainly not least, hajar khamlichi, an activist with the mediterranean youth climate network, also board member for the moroccan alliance for climate and sustainable development. all three of you, an absolute pleasure having you on my show. thanks for your time. and moundir, let's start

with you, because morocco, here we are in the heart of rabat. morocco is your home country. over the last 15 years, you've been spending a lot of money, investing a lot of money in renewable projects, so let me ask you this — not only morocco but across africa, but if we just look at morocco, moundir, paint me brief picture of some of the developments that you're involved in, and, more importantly, why morocco? why does this country seem to be one of the countries leading the charge in renewable energy? morocco has truly one of the best solar and wind resources in the world, combined, and it is very special. so you know that we don't have oil, we don't have natural gas, but we have a potential that is just amazing. this is the first reason — it'sjust a resource reason. this is the only resource morocco has. so embrace it. yeah, we need to embrace it and we have done and we have launched very ambitious programmes in order to capture this energy. but, also, morocco somehow is a bridge. it's a cultural bridge,

historically, between the south countries and the northern countries, between, you know... between africa and europe. africa and europe, of course. you know, it has a very special place, and more than that, today i think morocco represents the best opportunity to get out european continent — you know, from the dependency it has today from russian gas, because the resource we have here could be one of the big, big answers, part of the answer of the european demand. so coming back to our activities, we are working on very large—scale projects. wind, but on—shore. then we have, let's say, medium—sized infrastructure projects between 50 to 200 mw, pv and wind, and then you have the most, let's say, smaller ones between 1—3 mw and it's more, kind of, rooftop business. let me come to you, moez, because the world bank's assessment suggests that despite the — and let's be clear, right, the enormous costs involved in moving to a low—carbon economy —

the world bank says that this is actually going to help and grow the moroccan economy. just briefly explain that. the energy transition in morocco effectively involves a shift from heavy reliance on imported fossil fuels towards renewable energy and therefore decoupling from this very heavy volatility of the prices of fossil fuels, so this is the first benefit. secondly, the world bank, we did a study of climate development report and we estimated energy transition would generate at least 28,000 newjobs on a net basis per year which is about 9%

of the job deficit here in morocco. the third benefit and probably the most important is how morocco can position itself as an industrial hub for investment and exports of green industrial products. for example, fertilisers, the car industry. hajar, fabulous, some will say fabulous ambitions, right? how do you balance these incredible additions with the fact that still to this day you are importing dirty fossil fuels? there is a great ambition - and an effective one that starts many years in morocco with clean energy transition but there - are concerns about the rhythm of the implementation - of the strategies and i think- we lost a few years to speed up this transition but we are seeing now-

some premises and some promises also from the government that this transition will be speeded - up very quickly. but there are tenders and contracts out there for new offshore natural gas drilling and yet they've got this huge ambition to be a renewable energy nation. morocco set the target of 52% but didn't talk much about the rest of it. from my perspective it is very. controversial as we cannot really mix the two kinds of energiesl going towards a clean pathway and at the same time a dirty one. yet the gas now is commercialised and presented as cleaner, - the most clean fossil so far but this is not true - and we all know that. it is very dirty, - a dirty fossil fuel also.

we will be tending to invest in heavy infrastructure, - heavy gas infrastructure, - and it is very expensive compared to the cost of clean energy. 52% is the renewable mix but it is not the renewable production, so if we come to produce electricity, it is very far from 52%, we are more at 20%. then when we take oil, let's be very clear — we cannot accuse morocco, it is a global addiction. absolutely, absolutely, but morocco is putting itself out on the global stage as a renewable nation... we cannot replace today fossil fuels by renewables. it is very clear it is impossible and if morocco find gas, it will be very happy to have natural gas, because why? because the objective of any country is to have energy sovereignty. this is very important. and we see what is happening today with the war in ukraine. energy sovereignty is in the middle of all the discussions, so morocco needs a mix.

renewables are part of the solution on the electrics side. i have 30% reserve because yes, gas is intended in morocco- for phasing out coal. still in my view, we have a lot of potential that we can raise i the ambition of renewable energy in morocco more than _ what is actually done - and to lessen this potential. i would be happy, it is more business for us! moundir has a point, hajar. you are a climate activist but moundir�*s point is we can never get away probably from some form of fossil fuels to make up part of this mix. i i believe that fossil fuels have no. bright future among us, worldwide. yes, we will be still using it. yes, we will be phasing down - in order to phase out completely.

moez, can i just ask you, when you look at the numbers in terms of co2 emissions, this wonderful country, the moroccans, they actually are responsible for significantly less than pretty much the whole world. they're below the global average, so why with what is happening here is that so important? morocco is a relatively small country on the world stage and is relatively industrialised but not so industrialised, so i think that explains why the contribution to the global carbon emissions are not so high. i wanted to come back to the issue of the energy transition. i think precisely the term transition means that it's going to be a gradual process. i mean, we talk about, and our analysis at the world bank showed that you can decarbonise the moroccan economy gradually by the 2050s but this is a fairly long time, right? so right now, as moundir said,

morocco is reliant more than 90% on fossil fuels so it will be a gradual process. there may be a role, a transition role for natural gas in that process and then you build up your renewable energy and then because of the intermittency, i mean, the sun is not always shining, the wind is not always blowing, so you need to firm it up, you need to invest in storage technology, which is expensive. so this is why it is going to be a gradual process that will happen over two, three decades and also green hydrogen will play an important role. we know the moroccan government are undertaking a set of reforms just to make business and investment in this country easier. do they go far enough? just briefly, is it helping you, as a country? it's evolving slowly for us.

of course we wish it would go faster but when you compare morocco to the rest of the continent, morocco is doing very good. from the world bank's perspective, again, these reforms, do they go far enough to attract foreign investment into morocco? and should other countries be watching morocco closely? morocco was an early mover in the renewable energy scene but we believe it can go further, definitely. as we were saying, the investments that you will need in renewable energy, in storage, in green hydrogen etc are quite massive and the bulk can indeed come from the private sector. 0k. but in order to attract that private sector on such a massive scale, i think the government can and should undertake some reforms, for example... further reforms,

you're talking about? further reforms. in the electricity sector it can really make sure that the electricity grid is, you know, fully open and well regulated for the private sector producers like gaia energy to be able to wield their power through the grid at different voltage levels. some efforts can be made at making the cost and the tariffs of electricity, you know, transparent and fully cost—reflective, and also the need to develop wholesale markets. so in terms of lessons learned for other developing countries, i would say definitely you need, you know, strong political will and direction at the very highest level of the state. this has been a key strength in morocco.

and, secondly, i would say the government has to put in place the right targets for decarbonisation, the right objectives, and the right policies, you know, to have a good investment environment. but then let the private sector come, take risks, and make technology choices. what is really missing is the liberalisation of the market and i think it is a win—win situation for everybody. we would have access to the cheapest possible green electricity in the world and green derivatives. because if we liberalise the market in morocco, it is notjust for morocco, we would be a net exporter of green electrons, green fuels, green hydrogen to europe and the rest of the world. you know, it is a shift, a major shift. absolutely. but i wish we get there and if we get there, you will see that morocco will become one of the leaders in the world. 0k, let mejust restate those targets. the moroccan government has this

ambition of 52% of morocco's own electricity coming from renewables by 2030 — seven years away! but even his majesty, king mohammed vi, and his government, says there is a need — he said this — to speed things up. is that target achievable? it is more than achievable. i will give you numbers just in orderfor the audience to understand. don't confuse us. no, i will not confuse you. when we speak about green hydrogen, the calculation... the eu has released a very clear road map. it needs 20 million tonnes of green hydrogen from today to 2030. 10 million needs to be imported. those 10 million tonnes of green hydrogen would represent 20 times the installed capacity of electricity in morocco and i will tell you about the projects we are developing. it is real projects. we have a project that could provide 3—4% to all the electricity needs of germany, supporting green electricity.

we have another project that gaia is developing that could provide 4% of all italy's energy needs, electricity needs. and in terms of green hydrogen, we have six projects our company is developing that could answer to 25% of the needs of the eu. what really puzzled me was morocco had great ambitions to provide over 50% electricity from renewables and then start shipping to europe and you're like, well, hang on, why don't you have 100% at home first, any surplus ship? what is the business sense behind that? of course there is a huge business sense. you delocalise and you bring a huge industry and huge investment to the country. it has huge benefits for everyone. you create jobs. if you have an uptake from say a very large consumer in europe that is bankable in 25 years, you can easily finance your project and then maybe a part you can ship to morocco, but even the industries in morocco are not ready to consume green hydrogen so i don't think we should confuse that. we could do both, it is

two different markets. i believe we should fulfil the needs domestically than think of exporting it. that is mandatory. i mean, it is not either or.. you can try to do both. i mean, by exporting, as moundir was saying, you can reach a larger scale, you can reduce the cost, so ideally you should do both but morocco has a big young population. yes, huge. you need to create jobs locally. you need to create value locally, so it would be a loss if morocco was to use most or all of its renewable energy and export it rather than develop industry locally. i think that would be a loss. on that point, moundir, a real pleasure. it was a pleasure. moez, a real pleasure. and hajar, thank you so much for coming on and good luck with everything and i'll tell you what, we will check

in with you soon. 0k, perfect. thank you. morocco's energy transformation plans were first laid out by king mohammed vi back in 2009 and while the huge 0uarzazate solar power plant has been up and running since 2016, this government is acutely aware it has its work cut out if it wants to meet its commitment, and that commitment — the majority of its own electricity coming from renewable sources by 2030. so i have come here to catch up with the minister in charge of making all of that happen. let's go and have a chat. leila benali, morocco's minister of energy, transformation and sustainable development, an absolute pleasure having you on the show, leila. and let's start with this. let's start with, leila, just briefly outline if you will the government's plans when it comes to this energy transition generating renewable sources and also exporting it, because that is a big part of the plan, right? good morning, aaron,

and welcome to morocco. 0ur energy strategy is really based on three pillars, and i like to call it a triangle, and myjob is to ensure the triangle stays stable in time. so indeed the first pillar of our energy strategy is really ramping up renewables, so we exceeded our 40% targets of installed capacity based on renewables last year. now we are heading towards our new target of 52% of installed capacity based on renewables before 2030. pillar number two is energy efficiency and we have tried to be very efficient in the way we produce, we transport and we consume energy, and the third key pillar is regional and international integration in the international market. seven years from now, morocco is aiming to have its own electricity, 52% of electricity from renewable sources. i mean, that is a tight time frame and correct me if i'm wrong but earlier this year you told

a session in parliament that there was a need to speed up this transition. what do you need to speed up and how are you going to do that? speeding up is a challenge that several countries are facing, especially those countries like morocco who are really progressive in their energy strategy and green in their energy strategy, so speeding up is related to some of the challenges that we are facing internationally. remember, we cannot do this out of a vacuum. the world is just coming out from not only a couple of years of a historic pandemic, a total dislocation of supply chains and value chains affecting also renewable energy as well, the way we trade solar panels and windmills, but we also suffer internal challenges, including speeding up and streamlining bureaucracy and that's something that in many countries you notice, you need to have access to land

permits relatively fast to ensure that investors get access to the opportunities that they want. you also need to ensure that you put the investments that you need in the grid. let me ask you this about something i'm not struggling with but i want your answer. because before you even reach providing your people with 100% renewable electricity, before you do that you want to start exporting some of that energy. why do that before providing moroccans with 100% renewable electricity? 0ur position today is let's ensure that we are on both sides of the mediterranean for our populations in africa and europe, we are taking advantage of these historic approaches to take advantage of that additional trade.

as i said earlier, there is a lot of empowerment that comes with trade, so it boils down to energy security and energy access more than making sure that we want to export any forms of energy, so that is why if i take a concrete example of how we are monetising some of our gas resources for example, of course we want to enable investors by particularly international and private national investors to be able to monetise their electrons or their molecules as much as possible, but at the same time of course, the priority is to ensure that moroccans and the people living in morocco and people working in morocco and the economic tissue of morocco has access to the lowest costs, most economic green energy. i mean, that's priority number one. i've got to ask you this because, correct me if i am wrong here, but morocco at this moment has contracts out there, tenders out there, to drill for natural gas

offshore off your coast. that is a fossil fuel. mm—hm. how do you square that with this incredible ambition? for morocco it is a very easy question to square. there is no balance to find because morocco has always been a net fossil fuel importer. we are not your traditional fossil fuel exporter who would need to balance that with renewable plans, on the contrary. those two basins that we are trying to develop, we are trying to push primarily for morocco's domestic need, because we have a power sector today which is craving gas. i think today, for energy security, i think the world has realised that we need to get away from coal and get away from more polluting heavy fuel oil and other fossil fuels. we need gas in the system and also why do we need gas? because if we want to exceed 50%

of all capacity based on renewables, we need to handle the intermittency of renewables in the system. the world bank's recent report on morocco says your government has a limited amount of cash to play with and i am just wondering if you believe the funding, enough funding is going to be there to fulfil this ambition you have? i really don't think funding is the issue and first i will remind you, aaron, of the other big commitment of the new development model is that the government and the state should not be the one investing primarily in infrastructure and energy projects, especially when those projects are bankable. you are saying it is private sector? it is primarily the private sector that would take most of the investments. 0ur role as a government is to ensure that we facilitate the investors�* story and facilitate the access to investment opportunities and make sure that we cut through bureaucracy and red tape.

i think it is high time to ensure the private sector takes the technology risks and the types of risk that they are able to manage. well, on that point, minister leila benali, an absolute pleasure having you on the show. thanks very much. good luck with everything and i'll check in with you soon. aaron, thank you so much for the show and welcome to morocco. that's it for this special edition from rabat here in morocco. i hope you enjoyed it. don't forget you can keep up with the latest on the global economy on the bbc website or the smartphone app. don't forget you can also follow me on twitter. tweet me and i'll tweet you back. you can get me @bbcaaron. thanks for watching. i will see you soon. goodbye.

live from london. this is bbc news recep erdogan and his rival kemal kilicdaroglu are neck and neck as counting continues in the first presidential run—off election in turkish history. the white house and us republicans have reached an agreement �*in principle', to raise the government debt ceiling and avoid a default britain's government is discussing plans for supermarkets to cap the price of basic food items to help tackle the rising cost of living crisis. let's start in turkey where votes are being counted after a run—off presidential election. initial results suggest the incumbent, recep tayyip erdogan, is ahead of his challenger, kemal kilicdaroglu.