for the change, we are going for the hat—trick. ai. we were talking about it recently, the possibility of it taking ourjobs, and now it's taking our species. taking ourjobs, and now it's taking ourspecies. it's taking ourjobs, and now it's taking our species. it's the boffins of doom, 350 of the world's most distinguished experts in i ai have warned it could lead to the destruction of us, unless we act fast, act well, act with transparency, and with essex, act with honesty. if you don't understand this, don't worry, neither do the people who invented it. do you trust us? we have a terrible track record on these matters. we are primates, we grabbed the banana, we don't think about it. then there is the asymmetrical post, we do the right thing, others don't. what you want to know and what you

think? that is what we are doing. in other news, here is the news with. train drivers — who are members of the aslef union — are on strike today. 15 train companies are affected — with some operators running no services at all. it's the first of three rail strikes this week, with further action on friday and saturday. one of the pioneers of artificial intelligence says regulation of the technology needs to be "ramped up". professor yoshua bengio says his feelings about al are similar to how scientists felt about the development of the atom bomb. parents on universal credit will be able to claim hundreds more — to cover childcare costs from the end of next month.

the government announced in spring that people with one child would be able to getjust over £950 — while those with two or more children could get up to £1630. officials in southern russia say a drone has hit an oil refinery — a day after an attack on moscow. vladimir putin yesterday accused ukraine of trying to frighten russians. ukraine denied any direct involvement in the attack. existential threat to humanity, apocalypse, apocalypse imminently. i don't know about you, i think we should get our heads around this. we

were talking aboutjobs recently, 300 of the scientists responsible for this are technology, which has its uses, there are pros and cons but it's a leap in the dark. let's listen to one of them. this is yoshua bengio, known as one of the godfathers of ai. for his pioneering work in the field. he's been speaking to the bbc after signing the statement warning about the danger posed by ai. i and others believe it will be possible to build very safe ais, but that recipe could also be used to create dangerous ai — dangerous in the sense that they could act in the world in ways that could be nefarious, and that, you know, they wouldn't have this safety, that they could act for themselves rather than for our needs. and now the bad actors come in, because, you know,

it might be military, it might be terrorist, it might be somebody very angry, psychotic, whatever, and so if it's easy to programme these ai systems to ask them to do something very bad, this could be very dangerous, if they are smarter than us, because then it's hard for us to stop these systems or to prevent damage. yeah, smarter than us. what have we done? we've done something amazing, of course, we know about all the arguments about the undermining of democracy, but bad actors, as he said, the man who said himself, get hold of it and they carry on regardless. elon musk recently

called for a global pause, didn't he, in the development of ai. dan sodergren, good morning, we need you. also, carissa veliz. when i said earlier on, when i was in the introduction, all of the people who developed and invented this technology didn't necessarily understand it either. is this another nice mess we have got ourselves into? and also, dine, if it were to destroy us, how? yeah, absolutely- _ it were to destroy us, how? yeah, absolutely. the _ it were to destroy us, how? yeah, absolutely. the problem - it were to destroy us, how? yeah, absolutely. the problem we - it were to destroy us, how? yeah, absolutely. the problem we have | it were to destroy us, how? yeah, - absolutely. the problem we have with al as everyone has seen the movie ai as everyone has seen the movie like terminator, etc, and we all

know in the back of our heads, it's part of the cultural reference point, that we will create machines that will destroy us. we talked about this in 1968 even. as i'm sure you're aware, sometimes good movies are made because they are terrifying. tell me the movie where the ai machine takes over, makes the world a better place and stops the environment being destroyed. it's not as good a movie, it wouldn't sell as many tickets. i know the man who runs deepmind, and a lot of people who are at the end of their careers are saying we should not be doing this, but we should have talked about the ai ethics ten years ago, but we didn't. it could be too

little too late. i'm not on that side of the... i think another thing is... side of the. .. i think another thing is... ., ., ., , side of the. .. i think another thing is... you are not being blase about it, though- — is... you are not being blase about it, though. there _ is... you are not being blase about it, though. there are _ is... you are not being blase about it, though. there are challenges i it, though. there are challenges here. as a man who has sorted through and sort it through again, ignorance is bliss here, ignorance is good, a lot of people just don't understand it. how would we be destroyed if we were to be destroyed by this technology? in what way would it lead to our demise? fix, would it lead to our demise? classic one would be that it took over a military system and use the bombs that we have the weapons everywhere and use them against us. there have been fail safes in this and guardrails, however if you look to some people who are using ai in some ways that would link to robots, what happens if it made up its own mind about things and worked out that we were not great to be having around, and the fact that we destroy

the planet lots, i didn't like that, and these massive jumps, the planet lots, i didn't like that, and these massivejumps, but the planet lots, i didn't like that, and these massive jumps, but at the moment ai is simply a tool that you can use the marketing or analysis, is a great tour right now, but it's a bit like nuclear bombs and nuclear power. if everyone has nuclear power, that could be amazing, but if everyone then turns into a nuclear bomb, that's a bigger point. 0ne everyone then turns into a nuclear bomb, that's a bigger point. one of the things ai could potentially do, for example what if it took over the power grids, but there's thousands of types of ai, so it's a mistake to think it's one thing, but let's say ai took over the power grids and shut down all the power except that the generators for itself, that would create massive problems. mb? would create massive problems. why would create massive problems. why would it do that? precisely, - would create massive problems. why would it do that? precisely, and - would create massive problems. why would it do that? precisely, and i - would it do that? precisely, and i am with you. _ would it do that? precisely, and i am with you. why _ would it do that? precisely, and i am with you, why would - would it do that? precisely, and i am with you, why would it - would it do that? precisely, and i am with you, why would it do - would it do that? precisely, and i l am with you, why would it do that? would it do that? precisely, and i. am with you, why would it do that? i don't believe it worked. i think if it was a super intelligence it wouldn't have the kind of pettiness that human beings would have. a lot of people looking at this thing, i

evil, so why wouldn't it be evil? i think it's more logical that it wouldn't be evil in any way, it wouldn't be evil in any way, it would actually be good, it would care that we survived. it might care that we survive and look at us like pets, but that's a different thing entirely. right now we have the big problem that it might start taking over lots ofjobs, that's a bigger threat. the bigger threat is the environment, but thejobs is threat. the bigger threat is the environment, but the jobs is another thing. environment, but the “obs is another thin. . . ~ environment, but the “obs is another thing. yeah, we talked about that, but this is what _ thing. yeah, we talked about that, but this is what we _ thing. yeah, we talked about that, but this is what we wanted - thing. yeah, we talked about that, but this is what we wanted to - thing. yeah, we talked about that, but this is what we wanted to talk| but this is what we wanted to talk about it this morning with our listeners and viewers, because it's quite top line. we have people coming up, if you want to ask any questions, it's fine, as i said, it's ok not to know what you are talking about. join the club!

carissa veliz, is this science fiction, is it valid concerns that many scientists have? i fiction, is it valid concerns that many scientists have?- fiction, is it valid concerns that many scientists have? i think it's alarmist in _ many scientists have? i think it's alarmist in some _ many scientists have? i think it's alarmist in some ways _ many scientists have? i think it's alarmist in some ways and - many scientists have? i think it's alarmist in some ways and that l many scientists have? i think it's l alarmist in some ways and that it's unrealistic, — alarmist in some ways and that it's unrealistic, thinking that al would take over— unrealistic, thinking that al would take over in a fashion like terminator or something. in some ways— terminator or something. in some ways al _ terminator or something. in some ways al is — terminator or something. in some ways ai is already much smarter than we are, _ ways ai is already much smarter than we are, but_ ways ai is already much smarter than we are, but that's not very hard, to be smarter— we are, but that's not very hard, to be smarter than we are. a calculator is smarter_ be smarter than we are. a calculator is smarter than we are in some ways, but it— is smarter than we are in some ways, but it is— is smarter than we are in some ways, but it is hard — is smarter than we are in some ways, but it is hard to be smart in that kind _ but it is hard to be smart in that kind of— but it is hard to be smart in that kind of global weight. the best of the arguments is that an ai could want _ the arguments is that an ai could want more — the arguments is that an ai could want more resources to maximise whatever— want more resources to maximise whatever it — want more resources to maximise whatever it is doing, whether it's making _ whatever it is doing, whether it's making paper clips are whatever objectively programme it to. and we are an _ objectively programme it to. and we are an obstacle to that. but i think that short — are an obstacle to that. but i think that short of extinction there are so many— that short of extinction there are so many risks are so serious, so we should _ so many risks are so serious, so we should he _ so many risks are so serious, so we should be very worried about al, we should _ should be very worried about al, we should he _ should be very worried about al, we should be investing in minimising risks, _ should be investing in minimising risks, it's — should be investing in minimising risks, it'sjust that should be investing in minimising risks, it's just that the risk of extinction _ risks, it's just that the risk of extinction isn't the most likely one, _ extinction isn't the most likely one. and — extinction isn't the most likely one, and short of extinction there

are so— one, and short of extinction there are so many— one, and short of extinction there are so many more worries, like the demise _ are so many more worries, like the demise of— are so many more worries, like the demise of democracy, and we had the us elections coming up in 2024, we have big _ us elections coming up in 2024, we have big platforms like twitter firing — have big platforms like twitter firing their ai ethics and security teams. — firing their ai ethics and security teams, and we have systems creating misinformation very, very plausible at scale _ misinformation very, very plausible at scale. . , misinformation very, very plausible at scale. ., , ., , , misinformation very, very plausible atscale. ., , , at scale. that is worrying up. so, twitter have _ at scale. that is worrying up. so, twitter have got _ at scale. that is worrying up. so, twitter have got rid _ at scale. that is worrying up. so, twitter have got rid of _ at scale. that is worrying up. so, twitter have got rid of their- at scale. that is worrying up. so, twitter have got rid of their ai i twitter have got rid of their ai ethics team, and yet at the same time elon musk are saying, hang on, we need to be very careful and keep any eagle eye on al. the calls are coming in, let's speak to pippa. it is 08085 909693. 08085 on the text. put your name in the end, that would be great. good morning, pitto. what you make from the warning the scientist? i you make from the warning the scientist? ~ , , ., , scientist? i think it is years too late. i worked _ scientist? i think it is years too late. i worked for _

scientist? i think it is years too late. i worked for 20 _ scientist? i think it is years too late. i worked for 20 years - scientist? i think it is years too late. i worked for 20 years at l late. i worked for 20 years at london's _ late. i worked for 20 years at london's science _ late. i worked for 20 years at london's science museum... | late. i worked for 20 years at - london's science museum... sorry? no, don't _ london's science museum... sorry? no, don't apologise, _ london's science museum... sorry? no, don't apologise, i'm _ london's science museum... sorry? no, don't apologise, i'm rapt- london's science museum... sorry? no, don't apologise, i'm rapt listenl no, don'tapologise, i'm rapt listen to you. i no, don't apologise, i'm rapt listen to ou. ., ~' no, don't apologise, i'm rapt listen to ou. ., ~ ., ., ., �*, ,. . to you. i worked at london's science museum, to you. i worked at london's science museum. and _ to you. i worked at london's science museum. and if— to you. i worked at london's science museum, and if there _ to you. i worked at london's science museum, and if there is _ to you. i worked at london's science museum, and if there is one - to you. i worked at london's science museum, and if there is one thing . to you. i worked at london's science museum, and if there is one thing i | museum, and if there is one thing i learned, _ museum, and if there is one thing i learned, as— museum, and if there is one thing i learned, as a — museum, and if there is one thing i learned, as a social— museum, and if there is one thing i learned, as a social historian - learned, as a social historian looking at— learned, as a social historian looking at all— learned, as a social historian looking at all these - learned, as a social historian looking at all these differentj learned, as a social historian - looking at all these different forms of technology, _ looking at all these different forms of technology, it _ looking at all these different forms of technology, it is _ looking at all these different forms of technology, it is that _ looking at all these different forms of technology, it is that every- of technology, it is that every technology— of technology, it is that every technology you _ of technology, it is that every technology you tend - of technology, it is that every technology you tend to - of technology, it is that every technology you tend to be - of technology, it is that every. technology you tend to be might of technology, it is that every- technology you tend to be might care to name _ technology you tend to be might care to name has— technology you tend to be might care to name has had _ technology you tend to be might care to name has bad effects, _ technology you tend to be might care to name has bad effects, good - to name has bad effects, good effects — to name has bad effects, good effects and _ to name has bad effects, good effects and effects _ to name has bad effects, good effects and effects in - to name has bad effects, good effects and effects in the - to name has bad effects, good . effects and effects in the middle. you have — effects and effects in the middle. you have got— effects and effects in the middle. you have got to _ effects and effects in the middle. you have got to guard _ effects and effects in the middle. you have got to guard against - effects and effects in the middle. | you have got to guard against the bad effects. — you have got to guard against the bad effects, and _ you have got to guard against the bad effects, and sadly, _ you have got to guard against the bad effects, and sadly, so - you have got to guard against the bad effects, and sadly, so far, - bad effects, and sadly, so far, humanity, _ bad effects, and sadly, so far, humanity. and _ bad effects, and sadly, so far, humanity, and when— bad effects, and sadly, so far, humanity, and when i- bad effects, and sadly, so far, humanity, and when i say- bad effects, and sadly, so far, - humanity, and when i say humanity, when _ humanity, and when i say humanity, when it— humanity, and when i say humanity, when it comes — humanity, and when i say humanity, when it comes to _ humanity, and when i say humanity, when it comes to industry, - humanity, and when i say humanity, when it comes to industry, it's - when it comes to industry, it's nfostiy— when it comes to industry, it's nfostiy men. _ when it comes to industry, it's mostly men. do— when it comes to industry, it's mostly men, do not— when it comes to industry, it's mostly men, do not think- when it comes to industry, it's mostly men, do not think in l when it comes to industry, it's - mostly men, do not think in terms of the bad _ mostly men, do not think in terms of the bad effects. _ mostly men, do not think in terms of the bad effects. they— mostly men, do not think in terms of the bad effects. they are _ mostly men, do not think in terms of the bad effects. they are all- mostly men, do not think in terms of the bad effects. they are all so - the bad effects. they are all so excited — the bad effects. they are all so excited about _ the bad effects. they are all so excited about the _ the bad effects. they are all so excited about the good - the bad effects. they are all so excited about the good ones i the bad effects. they are all so l excited about the good ones that they rush — excited about the good ones that they rush ahead _ excited about the good ones that they rush ahead into _ excited about the good ones that they rush ahead into technologyl they rush ahead into technology without — they rush ahead into technology without taking _ they rush ahead into technology without taking precautions, - they rush ahead into technology without taking precautions, and| without taking precautions, and the sensible _ without taking precautions, and the sensible precautions, _ without taking precautions, and the sensible precautions, to— without taking precautions, and the sensible precautions, to me, - without taking precautions, and the sensible precautions, to me, it- sensible precautions, to me, it seems, — sensible precautions, to me, it seems, are _ sensible precautions, to me, it seems, are to— sensible precautions, to me, it seems, are to absolutely - sensible precautions, to me, it seems, are to absolutely stopl seems, are to absolutely stop with al, absolutely— seems, are to absolutely stop with al, absolutely stop _ seems, are to absolutely stop with al, absolutely stop and _ seems, are to absolutely stop with al, absolutely stop and think- seems, are to absolutely stop with| ai, absolutely stop and think about it before _ ai, absolutely stop and think about it before there _ ai, absolutely stop and think about it before there is— ai, absolutely stop and think about

it before there is any— ai, absolutely stop and think about it before there is any further- it before there is any further forward _ it before there is any further forward movement. - it before there is any further. forward movement. personally, it before there is any further- forward movement. personally, i believe _ forward movement. personally, i believe the — forward movement. personally, i believe the greatest _ forward movement. personally, i believe the greatest threat - forward movement. personally, i believe the greatest threat to - believe the greatest threat to mankind _ believe the greatest threat to mankind is _ believe the greatest threat to mankind is climate _ believe the greatest threat to mankind is climate change, l believe the greatest threat to l mankind is climate change, but believe the greatest threat to - mankind is climate change, but that aside, _ mankind is climate change, but that aside, it— mankind is climate change, but that aside, it looks — mankind is climate change, but that aside, it looks like _ mankind is climate change, but that aside, it looks like ai _ mankind is climate change, but that aside, it looks like aland _ mankind is climate change, but that aside, it looks like aland climate i aside, it looks like aland climate change _ aside, it looks like aland climate change combined _ aside, it looks like aland climate change combined are _ aside, it looks like aland climate change combined are going - aside, it looks like aland climate change combined are going to- aside, it looks like aland climate i change combined are going to cause the end _ change combined are going to cause the end of— change combined are going to cause the end of the — change combined are going to cause the end of the species, _ change combined are going to cause the end of the species, and - change combined are going to cause the end of the species, and i- change combined are going to cause the end of the species, and i have . the end of the species, and i have been _ the end of the species, and i have been facing — the end of the species, and i have been facing the _ the end of the species, and i have been facing the end _ the end of the species, and i have been facing the end of— the end of the species, and i have been facing the end of the - the end of the species, and i havej been facing the end of the species for years. — been facing the end of the species for years, vis—a—vis_ been facing the end of the species for years, vis—a—vis climate - been facing the end of the species. for years, vis—a—vis climate change, another— for years, vis—a—vis climate change, another is _ for years, vis—a—vis climate change, another is this — for years, vis—a—vis climate change, another is this announcement,, - for years, vis—a—vis climate change, i another is this announcement,, well, these _ another is this announcement,, well, these chaps, — another is this announcement,, well, these chaps, i'm _ another is this announcement,, well, these chaps, i'm glad _ another is this announcement,, well, these chaps, i'm glad these - another is this announcement,, well, these chaps, i'm glad these chaps. these chaps, i'm glad these chaps have got— these chaps, i'm glad these chaps have got together— these chaps, i'm glad these chaps have got together a _ these chaps, i'm glad these chaps have got together a major- have got together a major announcement, _ have got together a major announcement, but - have got together a major announcement, but it- have got together a major announcement, but it is. have got together a major. announcement, but it is time have got together a major- announcement, but it is time they put their— announcement, but it is time they put their money— announcement, but it is time they put their money where _ announcement, but it is time they put their money where their - announcement, but it is time theyl put their money where their mouth is, walk— put their money where their mouth is, walk the — put their money where their mouth is, walk the walk _ put their money where their mouth is, walk the walk and _ put their money where their mouth is, walk the walk and stopped. - put their money where their mouth i is, walk the walk and stopped. well, we can do it. — is, walk the walk and stopped. well, we can do it, but _ is, walk the walk and stopped. well, we can do it, but it's _ is, walk the walk and stopped. well, we can do it, but it's that _ we can do it, but it's that asymmetrical thing, others won't. as i said, others will carry on regardless.— i said, others will carry on regardless. think of doctor strangelove, _ regardless. think of doctor strangelove, you _ regardless. think of doctor strangelove, you have - regardless. think of doctorj strangelove, you have only regardless. think of doctor - strangelove, you have only had to think— strangelove, you have only had to think of— strangelove, you have only had to think of doctor— think of doctor strangelove. interesting _ think of doctor strangelove. interesting point. _ think of doctor strangelove. interesting point. i- think of doctor strangelove. interesting point. iwonderl think of doctor strangelove. - interesting point. iwonder what think of doctor strangelove. - interesting point. i wonder what you think about that, nedzad, given pippa's many years experience, in

science we are mesmerised, the confidence, echoes together. ithink this is massively _ confidence, echoes together. ithink this is massively exaggerated. - confidence, echoes together. ithink this is massively exaggerated. i - this is massively exaggerated. i have been involved in artificial intelligence. it has only got the name very recently. most of these techniques which are used, they are based on various mathematical optimisations, and one of them, one of the most popular ones, is neural networks, which basically mimics the way the brain operates, and you have to train the system to respond to similar sorts of events, so you can optimise it to play the game. what we're talking about here is access to data. that is problem, but the technology itself, not at all. if you think

about the abolition of fingerprinting, the technology based on these this same, song composition, which is the programme of trims and spitting data of spacecraft sent to mars to get the data very quickly, so you have to recognise the pattern. the problem nowadays is not the mathematical procedure is that people are developing, they are coming to the point where the access to the data has to be controlled, you have to understand that your phone is maybe being listened to someone on the end, you have speech recognition patterns and you might be hit by

advertising and so on, you know work 0k, advertising and so on, you know work ok, so, i'm getting it.— ok, so, i'm getting it. there are other threats _ ok, so, i'm getting it. there are other threats more _ ok, so, i'm getting it. there are other threats more imminent. ok, so, i'm getting it. there are - other threats more imminent threats, that we need to concentrate on, and it's the one actually mentioned by dan at the top, which is the undermining of democracy, our freedom, as well. children, in newcastle, hello. ithere? . freedom, as well. children, in newcastle, hello. ithere? , hello, can ou newcastle, hello. ithere? , hello, can you hear— newcastle, hello. ithere? , hello, can you hear me? _ newcastle, hello. ithere? , hello, can you hear me? yes, _ newcastle, hello. ithere? , hello, can you hear me? yes, welcome. i j can you hear me? yes, welcome. i can't remember. — can you hear me? yes, welcome. i can't remember, a _ can you hear me? yes, welcome. i can't remember, a phone - can you hear me? yes, welcome. i can't remember, a phone in - can you hear me? yes, welcome. i can't remember, a phone in on - can you hear me? yes, welcome. i can't remember, a phone in on the potential demise of humanity, maybe climate change and the pandemic, but this is something where we need to maybe hold the technological horses. would you think? i maybe hold the technological horses. would you think?— would you think? i feel like we have a mixed bag- _ would you think? i feel like we have a mixed bag. there _ would you think? i feel like we have a mixed bag. there are _ would you think? i feel like we have a mixed bag. there are always - would you think? i feel like we have a mixed bag. there are always pros| a mixed bag. there are always pros and cons _ a mixed bag. there are always pros and cons i— a mixed bag. there are always pros and cons. i feel like ai is another tool in _ and cons. i feel like ai is another tool in the — and cons. i feel like ai is another tool in the back that we can use,

and i_ tool in the back that we can use, and i know— tool in the back that we can use, and i know it'sjust now being used in universities, a lot of people are using _ in universities, a lot of people are using chatgpt, and the new ones being _ using chatgpt, and the new ones being involved time, but another problem — being involved time, but another problem is the it's a lot of different models, like machine learning, — different models, like machine learning, i feel like different models, like machine learning, ifeel like in different models, like machine learning, i feel like in the wrong hands _ learning, i feel like in the wrong hands it— learning, i feel like in the wrong hands it could potentially have a runaway — hands it could potentially have a runaway effect. i don't really know if it's _ runaway effect. i don't really know if it's possible that al could in a way be — if it's possible that al could in a way be created to create other als, and four— way be created to create other als, and four data points in, but in reaiity— and four data points in, but in reality don't really know what's behind — reality don't really know what's behind it. — reality don't really know what's behind it, it'sjust predictions. so, behind it, it'sjust predictions. so. i_ behind it, it'sjust predictions. so. idon't _ behind it, it'sjust predictions. so, i don't if it's possible that so, idon't if it's possible that this— so, idon't if it's possible that this will— so, i don't if it's possible that this will ever happen, but we do have _ this will ever happen, but we do have to — this will ever happen, but we do have tojust make sure this will ever happen, but we do have to just make sure that control

is made _ have to just make sure that control is made. ., ., _, ., is made. yeah, human control ultimately _ is made. yeah, human control ultimately for _ is made. yeah, human control ultimately for good _ is made. yeah, human control ultimately for good or - is made. yeah, human control ultimately for good or ill. - is made. yeah, human control. ultimately for good or ill. diana, thatis ultimately for good or ill. diana, that is really what you are saying at the top. brilliant points from viewers and listeners, bring great expertise to the table. dan, i suppose what people are worried about is the incredible rapidity of the development of this technology. we don't know where we are going to be in five years. this we don't know where we are going to be in five years— be in five years. this is what i would say _ be in five years. this is what i would say is _ be in five years. this is what i would say is the _ be in five years. this is what i would say is the key - be in five years. this is what i would say is the key thing, i be in five years. this is what i - would say is the key thing, really, it is the speed at which this is happening. it is the fourth industrial revolution, we talk about al and the speed of it, this is only ai and the speed of it, this is only last year, we now into the fifth iteration. i think it was the telephone talks, it took 72 years to get 200 million people. ai took 72 days. a difference the speed. so it is the year the ghost of days,

that's just a few months ago. more and more people use it, and as more and more people use it, and as more and more people use it, it seems that the systems get better and better because the feedback loops are there, so you can argue why ai gaveit are there, so you can argue why ai gave it to everything, because this is the thing. it caught many people on unaware because they didn't realise this was what is going to happen. this is the exciting part, as well, because it gets better, you can become ten times more productive in yourjob then you were before, but i want to pull us back to the understanding that this is just like something, if you're not using ai in yourjob, it's a bit like you not using e—mail or electricity. it is that basic thing. you'd have to start looking at how you can use it. i understand that behind that there is some potential danger, e—book ending existential crisis, but in the meantime let's just make more money and make our lives better using it. with the safeguards and

guardrails above us anyway, if this stuff is already so dangerous, i'm afraid that's probably already happen, i think it can't be stopped. i don't believe that, by the way,. i think ai acting by its own awareness of superiority to ourselves, it's going to be kimjong—un... with no disrespect, is not here to defend himself, but you know i mean? disrespect, is not here to defend himself, but you knowl mean? there is a fear that — himself, but you knowl mean? there is a fear that bad _ himself, but you knowl mean? there is a fear that bad actors _ himself, but you knowl mean? there is a fear that bad actors will— himself, but you knowl mean? there is a fear that bad actors will use - is a fear that bad actors will use it in a bad way, and they are kind of the safeguards and guardrails we have to put up, but it's a bit like saying, you can't have this version, you can't use computers, because you might do bad things of the internet, because the dark i was there and so on. i think there is an issue around that, limiting it to certain areas, but if people believe it's as bad as, or could potentially be as bad as, or could potentially be as bad as nuclear, i simply don't believe

that. it's a great tool, it can make us more productive. i'm with the people who said this before, that men often do things a bit too quickly and don't think about the second or third recurrence of this, but i think right now, if we say we'rejust to but i think right now, if we say we're just to pause but i think right now, if we say we'rejust to pause it, i like the fact that elon musk said he we should pause it, but at the same time bought equipment so he could crack on with his own version on twitter. i think some people who are very rich, who say, i think we should pause, what they're really saying is, oh, i hope my competitors stop being so good and give me a chance to make more money. i'm not saying could just be bad actors, but may be people who have capitalism are making money at the heart of it, and i'm not sure that al is really... and i'm not sure that al is really- - -— and i'm not sure that al is reall , ., and i'm not sure that al is reall... , ., �*, really... is that coming back? it's pi a! really... is that coming back? it's pippa! go — really... is that coming back? it's pippa! go on. _ really... is that coming back? it's pippa! go on, the _ really... is that coming back? it's pippa! go on, the same, - really... is that coming back? it's pippa! go on, the same, bad - really... is that coming back? it's i pippa! go on, the same, bad actors, all the talk — pippa! go on, the same, bad actors, all the talk about _ pippa! go on, the same, bad actors, all the talk about actors, _ pippa! go on, the same, bad actors, all the talk about actors, and - pippa! go on, the same, bad actors, all the talk about actors, and just . all the talk about actors, and just thinking, who is the bad actor with

the bomb, arguably? carry on. just amuses me — the bomb, arguably? carry on. just amuses me when i see elon musk choosing — amuses me when i see elon musk choosing his — amuses me when i see elon musk choosing his rockets— amuses me when i see elon musk choosing his rockets off _ amuses me when i see elon musk choosing his rockets off into - amuses me when i see elon musk. choosing his rockets off into space, i choosing his rockets off into space, i wish _ choosing his rockets off into space, i wish he _ choosing his rockets off into space, i wish he would _ choosing his rockets off into space, i wish he would shoot _ choosing his rockets off into space, iwish he would shoot himself- choosing his rockets off into space, i wish he would shoot himself up. i wish he would shoot himself up into space — i wish he would shoot himself up into space and _ i wish he would shoot himself up into space and not _ i wish he would shoot himself up into space and not the _ i wish he would shoot himself up into space and not the truth - i wish he would shoot himself up into space and not the truth is, i into space and not the truth is, we're _ into space and not the truth is, we're not — into space and not the truth is, we're not going _ into space and not the truth is, we're not going to _ into space and not the truth is, we're not going to find - into space and not the truth is, we're not going to find a - into space and not the truth is, we're not going to find a better planet — we're not going to find a better planet out _ we're not going to find a better planet out there _ we're not going to find a better planet out there and _ we're not going to find a better planet out there and then - we're not going to find a better planet out there and then we . planet out there and then we actually _ planet out there and then we actually have _ planet out there and then we actually have here, - planet out there and then we actually have here, and - planet out there and then we actually have here, and we . planet out there and then we i actually have here, and we are currently — actually have here, and we are currently destroying _ actually have here, and we are currently destroying our - actually have here, and we are i currently destroying our beautiful planet _ currently destroying our beautiful planet with — currently destroying our beautiful planet with its _ currently destroying our beautiful planet with its waters _ currently destroying our beautiful planet with its waters and - currently destroying our beautiful planet with its waters and its - planet with its waters and its wildlife, _ planet with its waters and its wildlife, and _ planet with its waters and its wildlife, and greenery. - planet with its waters and its wildlife, and greenery. we . planet with its waters and its i wildlife, and greenery. we are destroying _ wildlife, and greenery. we are destroying l'm _ wildlife, and greenery. we are destroying. i'm sorry, - wildlife, and greenery. we are destroying. i'm sorry, i- wildlife, and greenery. we are destroying. i'm sorry, i find i wildlife, and greenery. we are destroying. i'm sorry, i find it| destroying. i'm sorry, ifind it very— destroying. i'm sorry, ifind it very amusing _ destroying. i'm sorry, ifind it very amusing to _ destroying. i'm sorry, ifind it very amusing to see - destroying. i'm sorry, ifind it very amusing to see what - destroying. i'm sorry, i find it . very amusing to see what these billionaires _ very amusing to see what these billionaires get _ very amusing to see what these billionaires get up _ very amusing to see what these billionaires get up to. _ very amusing to see what these billionaires get up to. iirilt�*iith - very amusing to see what these billionaires get up to. with their rocket waving. _ billionaires get up to. with their rocket waving. yes. _ billionaires get up to. with their rocket waving. yes. absolutely! | billionaires get up to. with their - rocket waving. yes. absolutely! and how. i rocket waving. yes. absolutely! and how- i was — rocket waving. yes. absolutely! and how. i was thinking _ rocket waving. yes. absolutely! and how. i was thinking of _ rocket waving. yes. absolutely! and how. i was thinking of another - rocket waving. yes. absolutely! and| how. i was thinking of another word, but i can't how. i was thinking of another word, but i can't use _ how. i was thinking of another word, but i can't use it. _ how. i was thinking of another word, but i can't use it. so _ how. i was thinking of another word, but i can't use it. so michael- but i can't use it. so michael shadwell is with us. i will come to you in a minute, carissa. but first i will go to robert in worcestershire. what would you like

to say about our demise and destruction?— to say about our demise and destruction? ,., ., ., ~ destruction? good morning. ithink it's very likely— destruction? good morning. ithink it's very likely that _ destruction? good morning. ithink it's very likely that the _ destruction? good morning. ithink it's very likely that the universe - it's very likely that the universe is very intelligent. the internal combustion engine was a magnificent design, but we seem unable to control themselves in the long term, and everybody has said what was going to be set anywhere, so there are no new arguments. i think it's going to be human failure, not a technicalfailure, and we cannot control anything that we do, so i'd rather think, we talk about bad actors closing down networks and so forth, when you have people, and i will be quick, the worst loves life

and we love death. if you're going to be pessimistic, it's not a good thing, and i think this could well be the ultimate bad news. 0k, thing, and i think this could well be the ultimate bad news. ok, that's me! . �* , be the ultimate bad news. ok, that's me! ., �*, ., be the ultimate bad news. ok, that's me! ., ., me! that's you, and that's what we love! we love _ me! that's you, and that's what we love! we love that. _ me! that's you, and that's what we love! we love that. ? _ me! that's you, and that's what we love! we love that. ? don't - me! that's you, and that's what we love! we love that. ? don't forget. love! we love that. ? don't forget about human stupidity, either. , pippa is back! professor sir nigel shadbolt, this is why i love hearing about from these people out there. there is apocalypse across the centuries, people who say it will happen in the 17th ofjuly

1970 and it never happens, then they move the goal posts, they have various cookie calculations leading them to conclusions and various dubious inferences from the scriptures, but this is coming from people who know stuff. 0n the write to want? i people who know stuff. on the write to want? ~ , ., people who know stuff. on the write to want? ~' , ., ., to want? i think they are right to raise awareness _ to want? i think they are right to raise awareness of _ to want? i think they are right to raise awareness of the _ to want? i think they are right to raise awareness of the aspects i to want? i think they are right to | raise awareness of the aspects of this technology, which is a little bit like. — this technology, which is a little bit like, we call it your use, it's like. _ bit like, we call it your use, it's like. in — bit like, we call it your use, it's like, in chemistry it's like chemical— like, in chemistry it's like chemical warfare, like, in chemistry it's like chemicalwarfare, it's chemical warfare, it's like biological warfare in biology. this can be _ biological warfare in biology. this can be used for good or ill, people in the _ can be used for good or ill, people in the show— can be used for good or ill, people in the show have been making that point, it— in the show have been making that point, it is— in the show have been making that point, it is up to us, we are the agents— point, it is up to us, we are the agents on— point, it is up to us, we are the agents on this at this point, and we have agency— agents on this at this point, and we have agency and all of this, the notion— have agency and all of this, the notion here, i think what people like yoshua bengio and people are calling _ like yoshua bengio and people are calling for— like yoshua bengio and people are calling for his reflection and

anticipation, notjust anticipation, not just driving ourselves anticipation, notjust driving ourselves into a situation where the technologies employed without a thought — technologies employed without a thought of how it is applied, and that is— thought of how it is applied, and that is why, for example, in oxford, where i_ that is why, for example, in oxford, where i teach, we have set ups to try and _ where i teach, we have set ups to try and get— where i teach, we have set ups to try and get the principles established and get those principles into the _ established and get those principles into the minds of the computer scientists— into the minds of the computer scientists and others who develop the technology, and more brilliantly at the _ the technology, and more brilliantly at the kind — the technology, and more brilliantly at the kind of conversation we are having _ at the kind of conversation we are having now — at the kind of conversation we are having now. it�*s at the kind of conversation we are having now-— having now. it's fascinating, i think many — having now. it's fascinating, i think many people _ having now. it's fascinating, i think many people who - having now. it's fascinating, i think many people who are i having now. it's fascinating, i - think many people who are listening will tell you this morning, looking at the news websites and listening to the radio and everything, the scientists are saying it will lead to our ultimate destruction, what is the scenario?— the scenario? well i think, again, it is worthless _ the scenario? well i think, again, it is worthless to _ the scenario? well i think, again, it is worthless to getting - the scenario? well i think, again, it is worthless to getting back - the scenario? well i think, again, it is worthless to getting back in i it is worthless to getting back in history— it is worthless to getting back in history a — it is worthless to getting back in history a little bit. ai is not a new— history a little bit. ai is not a new concept, recently people have got gloomy about the prospect of it putting _ got gloomy about the prospect of it putting us— got gloomy about the prospect of it putting us out of work, taking over in sensitive — putting us out of work, taking over in sensitive areas where it has no

right— in sensitive areas where it has no right to _ in sensitive areas where it has no right to be, — in sensitive areas where it has no right to be, we already have tonnes of aiiteem — right to be, we already have tonnes of aiitee. .. ~ . right to be, we already have tonnes of aiitee- - -— right to be, we already have tonnes of aiitee... ~ ., i. ., _ ., of aiitee. .. what you mean by that? sor , of aiitee. .. what you mean by that? sorry. i'm — of aiitee. .. what you mean by that? sorry, i'm bearable _ of aiitee. .. what you mean by that? sorry, i'm bearable at _ of aiitee. .. what you mean by that? sorry, i'm bearable at all— of aiitee. .. what you mean by that? sorry, i'm bearable at all brain. - sorry, i'm bearable at all brain. taking over areas where it has no right to be? facial recognition technology, it comes out of the ai labs over the last few years, it is able very well to discriminate and identify faces, the sort of context will use that, we have some law enforcement agencies saying we won't do that because we know is not necessarily robust enough or trained out enough, doesn't display a sufficient lack of bias for us to trust it properly, and often we have that discussion, where technology has been deployed, what you're trying to argue for here is to get on the front foot a little bit, there reason that matters now is that this new version of the edge

technology so—called, generative ai, we have a conversation with us, people who worry will have continued to develop a pace, it has a different character, that is to say in the past, very specific ai different character, that is to say in the past, very specific al to in the past, very specific alto solve — in the past, very specific alto solve specific task. this is general in the _ solve specific task. this is general in the first— solve specific task. this is general in the first instance, and then we particular— in the first instance, and then we particular task. what you specialise it to do. _ particular task. what you specialise it to do. the — particular task. what you specialise it to do, the questions we are needing — it to do, the questions we are needing to ask, how we have been set ”p needing to ask, how we have been set up to do— needing to ask, how we have been set up to do that. will needing to ask, how we have been set up to do that-— up to do that. will ai ever be ca able up to do that. will ai ever be capable of— up to do that. will ai ever be capable of jealousy _ up to do that. will ai ever be capable ofjealousy or - up to do that. will ai ever be - capable of jealousy or malevolence? capable ofjealousy or malevolence? that, of course, is part of the conversation. one of the things we are having, — conversation. one of the things we are having, the reason i'm down in london _ are having, the reason i'm down in london today, is the conference being _ london today, is the conference being held at the institute of in london. — being held at the institute of in london, bringing together philosophers and computer scientist to debate _ philosophers and computer scientist to debate the prospects for those sorts _ to debate the prospects for those sorts of— to debate the prospects for those sorts of developments. for myself, i think we _ sorts of developments. for myself, i think we have some way all of that, in the _ think we have some way all of that, in the sense — think we have some way all of that, in the sense that we humans are

embodied — in the sense that we humans are embodied in social world, we are involved — embodied in social world, we are involved in— embodied in social world, we are involved in deep time, billions of years— involved in deep time, billions of years of— involved in deep time, billions of years of evolution, and while some people _ years of evolution, and while some people think the rate of development of these _ people think the rate of development of these systems is incredibly swift. — of these systems is incredibly swift, there's huge amounts of the machinery— swift, there's huge amounts of the machinery of the equipment for being social, _ machinery of the equipment for being social, for— machinery of the equipment for being social, for being in the world, that the systems do not yet have. we will be wi in the systems do not yet have. we will be witty in just _ the systems do not yet have. we will be witty in just a _ the systems do not yet have. we will be witty in just a second, _ the systems do not yet have. we will be witty in just a second, carissa, i be witty in just a second, carissa, but barney is in stratford, in london. barney, what she liked to say? i london. barney, what she liked to sa ? . , london. barney, what she liked to sa ? ., , , ~' london. barney, what she liked to sa? , ~ say? i was 'ust thinking about the downfall say? i wasjust thinking about the downfall of _ say? i wasjust thinking about the downfall of mankind. _ say? i wasjust thinking about the downfall of mankind. why - say? i wasjust thinking about the downfall of mankind. why not? i say? i wasjust thinking about the - downfall of mankind. why not? some of it has come — downfall of mankind. why not? some of it has come from _ downfall of mankind. why not? some of it has come from fiction, _ downfall of mankind. why not? some of it has come from fiction, and - downfall of mankind. why not? some of it has come from fiction, and i - of it has come from fiction, and i wasjust thinking, of it has come from fiction, and i was just thinking, actually, of it has come from fiction, and i wasjust thinking, actually, the downfall, there is a downfall from al, it's probablyjust going to be a ai, it's probablyjust going to be a bit more mundane. in 2018 we had

judge dredd, with mega— city one having hundred percent unemployment, and we are already seeing a lot of discrepancy with the 1%, or the no .01% or even smaller number, because one of your guess was talking about productivity, well, a workforce of its cost, so if you get smarter ai, why would you keep around an expensive human? so what we can start seeing is just... expensive human? so what we can start seeing isjust... we have already seen this in blue—collar factories, you know, more and more automation in car factories, factories, you know, more and more automation in carfactories, and maybe that didn't settle some problems when it happened in the 90s, but we are now actually at a point where it might be affecting white colour, where there is a lot more, you know, why do i need a trader or broker when ai can

determine the market far better? why have these things? we can see this, that eventually would come to a point where unemployment is so vast, and only getting the benefit of that, we are not all in some sort of utopia where we will have parts, we were broken or unemployed. how could were broken or unemployed. how could we deal with that? al is an enabler of productivity, so why would we have corporations like now, where ethically we should have a workforce, they all look looking to become rich. so many people are saying what you are saying and you have said it really well and i am informed you are a software engineer. this is what we address less time, the social consequences of all this, what it will mean for our communities and societies and nations, the way we work and the way we live. it is all tied up. but we

are ratcheting up talking about what the scientists have said, which is the scientists have said, which is the end of. just to remind you, rishi sunak has moved to reassure us that the uk will be at the forefront of developing ai responsibly. where would we be without a laugh? garissa, wrap up what you have heard. , . . garissa, wrap up what you have heard. , ., ., ., heard. yes, i agree that whatever risk ai heard. yes, i agree that whatever risk al brings _ heard. yes, i agree that whatever risk ai brings is _ heard. yes, i agree that whatever risk ai brings is likely _ heard. yes, i agree that whatever risk ai brings is likely to - heard. yes, i agree that whatever risk ai brings is likely to be - heard. yes, i agree that whatever risk ai brings is likely to be much | risk ai brings is likely to be much more _ risk ai brings is likely to be much more mundane than these more flashy scenarios _ more mundane than these more flashy scenarios. the demise of democracy is a very— scenarios. the demise of democracy is a very big — scenarios. the demise of democracy is a very big worry, it is not only about— is a very big worry, it is not only about misinformation which is a big topic and _ about misinformation which is a big topic and very related to ai because generative — topic and very related to ai because generative ai does not track truth, it is not— generative ai does not track truth, it is not based on logic or empirical evidence. it is a statistical analysis that gives plausible responses. of course, possible — plausible responses. of course, possible responses may have nothing to do with _

possible responses may have nothing to do with the truth. but it is also about— to do with the truth. but it is also about surveillance and this is something we have not mentioned today— something we have not mentioned today yet~ — something we have not mentioned today yet. but this kind of ai uses a lot— today yet. but this kind of ai uses a lot of— today yet. but this kind of ai uses a lot of data and a lot of data is personal— a lot of data and a lot of data is personal data and one of my concerns about _ personal data and one of my concerns about it _ personal data and one of my concerns about it is _ personal data and one of my concerns about it is we — personal data and one of my concerns about it is we are sleepwalking into surveillance systems that lead to societies — surveillance systems that lead to societies of control. surveillance is never — societies of control. surveillance is never neutral, it always leads to certain— is never neutral, it always leads to certain kinds of control and control leads— certain kinds of control and control leads to _ certain kinds of control and control leads to a — certain kinds of control and control leads to a loss of freedom. so one of the _ leads to a loss of freedom. so one of the things i have argued in my book— of the things i have argued in my book mac— of the things i have argued in my book mac privacy is cut back power, we should _ book mac privacy is cut back power, we should end the trade in personal data _ we should end the trade in personal data -- _ we should end the trade in personal data. —— privacy is power. there will— data. —— privacy is power. there will be _ data. —— privacy is power. there will be negativity which will lead us to _ will be negativity which will lead us to less — will be negativity which will lead us to less and less democracy and less freedom.— less freedom. you can ring our telephone _ less freedom. you can ring our telephone number, _ less freedom. you can ring our telephone number, get- less freedom. you can ring our telephone number, get the - less freedom. you can ring our- telephone number, get the mobile phone and put a message in it, amazing! we are talking about the existential threat from al. apocalypse now. sort of. more to

come. , ., �* �* , ., ., . come. listen on bbc sounds and watch on ipla er. rail passengers are facing major disruption this morning. over 12,000 train drivers — members of the aslef union — are on strike. some operators are running no services at all. this is the first of three rail strikes this week, with further action on friday and saturday. 350 leading scientists from the field of artificial intelligence have warned that the technology could bring about the end of humanity. the centre for al safety has published a statement calling for the risk to be considered a global priority, alongside pandemics and nuclear war. people who use prepayment energy meters are being urged to use the vouchers they were given to help with their bills. the £400 coupons expire at the end ofjune. most have been cashed, but there are worries many vulnerable households

could miss out. the uk's new post—brexit trade deals with australia and new zealand have come into force. the deals involve the removal of tariffs on uk goods exported to those countries. that was the news, now the sport. good morning. organisers of the fifa women's world cup, which starts in 50 days in australia and new zealand, say they are closing in on one million ticket sales. the england squad will be announced this afternoon. manchester united forward anthony martial will miss saturday's fa cup final against manchester city. he has a hamstring tear. golf's world number 2, jon rahm, says the ryder cup should be contested between the best of europe and the united states, regardless of whether players are playing on the controversial saudi—funded liv tour. rahm won't be able to renew his partnership with fellow spaniard sergio garcia in rome in september. garcia has resigned from europe's dp world tour, and is now ineligible.

and the rugby football union will decide today whether or not to grant london irish an extra week to complete a takeover. the club have been in talks with an american consortium over a sale. an emergency squad meeting held last night revealed the owners have offered to pay only 50% of salaries, which are due today. say play bbc news to most smart speakers and you'll get the latest headlines and in—depth reports and international, national and local stories that matter to you. for your news when you want it, just say play bbc news. one more question in a moment of professor shadwell, who is giving is

really stimulating stuff, and more from you. we are talking about al, the threat to humanity. at ten o'clock, three politicians, you can ask them whatever you want, it is what we do and wednesday, ask the question, loads on the news, address them and tackle them. professional, thank you for waiting on another question because i know you have to —— off to this conference, this philosophy conference in london —— run—off. what a hubbub during the lunch break, how fascinating. what will they be saying about the scientists warning today about the threat to humanity what dan was saying earlier, this is a bit alarmist, orwill they saying earlier, this is a bit alarmist, or will they be saying yes, we need to think deeply about this, i imagine you will say they will be thinking all those things. and you would be right, and they will be. there is a sense in which this letter and the awareness of the increasing amount of communities

there are issues to think forward about is hugely important. it is also the case that very often, the real harms here, now and today are more prosaic, as are the benefits. let's understand that al more prosaic, as are the benefits. let's understand that ai will be a force for good as it is used in health, drug discovery, all swathes of applications where benefits will flow. but the challenge is the misapplication and how we regulate that, how we deal with that, what we should do, what we should do is absolutely have many people involved in the conversation. we should have clear ethical guidelines and precepts and training for the people who are building this. it is not good enough for the computer science —— scientist to absolve themselves of the fact they are building systems with intended purposes and thatis systems with intended purposes and that is partly what we are seeing in the community, an awareness that this technology has now got capabilities, some of which we don't fully understand. the engineering in this field has outstripped the

science and we have to take some time and develop the methods and tools to make sense of what the products of these latest ai system actually are. and all of ourjobs will disappear, to that point, human beings are incredibly ingenious about creating new things for themselves to do that attract a wage. there are entire new classes of activity from social influences to search optimisation engineers that simply didn't exist that we bring into existence off the back of technology. bud bring into existence off the back of technolo: . �* . bring into existence off the back of technology-— technology. and anti social influences _ technology. and anti social influences as _ technology. and anti social influences as well, - technology. and anti social influences as well, and - technology. and anti social| influences as well, and that technology. and anti social i influences as well, and that is technology. and anti social - influences as well, and that is the point. indeed, ying and yang. yes, all of them come at the great double act, the laurel and hardy. thank you very much indeed, have a good conference. so he is with us in a second, the bbc technology editor. graham in bedfordshire and a quick one from sarah in liverpool. graham, go first. are you terrified, graham? no, i'm not really terrified, nikki.

good news. do you think they are a bit over the top, the boffins of doom? ., ., ., ., ., doom? no, not at all. some of your roviders doom? no, not at all. some of your providers this _ doom? no, not at all. some of your providers this morning _ doom? no, not at all. some of your providers this morning have - doom? no, not at all. some of your| providers this morning have probably hit the nail on the head. we are an engineering business and we use gpt for pretty much on a daily basis, it is fairly dramatically affecting how effective we can be as engineers. and we have all so started to use it in our personal life and the like —— also started. so i was hoping to be able to explain very simplistically how people can find out these things for themselves rather than relying on opinion and even experts, who often are not necessarily objective

or are not necessarily that wise or possibly haven't done much research. so that was one of the things i wanted to talk about, nikki. everyone has an agenda. most people, es. everyone has an agenda. most people, yes- especially — everyone has an agenda. most people, yes. especially elon _ everyone has an agenda. most people, yes. especially elon musk, _ everyone has an agenda. most people, yes. especially elon musk, for - yes. especially elon musk, for example. i don't think it is a bad agenda with elon musk, but only time will tell. but certainly, governments will have an agenda and of course, corporations will have an agenda. and obviously, with corporations, that agenda is primarily theirjob, which is to grow and to make profit, that is theirjob. so that agenda may not be in line with our own society, if that makes sense. it in line with our own society, if that makes sense.— in line with our own society, if that makes sense. it makes perfect sense. that makes sense. it makes perfect sense- sarah _ that makes sense. it makes perfect sense. sarah livable, _ that makes sense. it makes perfect sense. sarah livable, good - that makes sense. it makes perfect| sense. sarah livable, good morning. it is those who are saying, let's stop this and look at the ethics,

which allow the people who said that to steal a march on the others. sarah, how worried you? to to steal a march on the others. sarah, how worried you?- sarah, how worried you? to be erfectl sarah, how worried you? to be perfectly honest, _ sarah, how worried you? to be perfectly honest, nicky, - sarah, how worried you? to be perfectly honest, nicky, good i perfectly honest, nicky, good niorning. _ perfectly honest, nicky, good morning, i am extremely worried about— morning, i am extremely worried about this — morning, i am extremely worried about this. having heard all the arguments and to be perfectly honest. — arguments and to be perfectly honest. i_ arguments and to be perfectly honest, i agree with the professor, we need _ honest, i agree with the professor, we need to— honest, i agree with the professor, we need to take a good look at this and for— we need to take a good look at this and for now. — we need to take a good look at this and for now, we need to put the brakes— and for now, we need to put the brakes on — and for now, we need to put the brakes on. because the computer experts, — brakes on. because the computer experts, i— brakes on. because the computer experts, i know quite a few in computing and software engineering and they— computing and software engineering and they are just, they steam ahead, perfectly— and they are just, they steam ahead, perfectly all right, we will carry on, perfectly all right, we will carry on. and — perfectly all right, we will carry on, and there are a couple who are terrified _ on, and there are a couple who are terrified out — on, and there are a couple who are terrified out of their wits and if they— terrified out of their wits and if they don't— terrified out of their wits and if they don't work for any of these, they— they don't work for any of these, they have — they don't work for any of these, they have worked in aland they don't work for any of these, they have worked in al and they have .ot they have worked in al and they have got out _ they have worked in al and they have got out and _ they have worked in al and they have got out and they have seen what is going _ got out and they have seen what is going on— got out and they have seen what is going on and they have said, no way. some _ going on and they have said, no way. some of— going on and they have said, no way. some of them would even have a smartphone. not because they are paranoid. — smartphone. not because they are paranoid, it is because the technology in a smartphone is the

same _ technology in a smartphone is the same as— technology in a smartphone is the same as a — technology in a smartphone is the same as a one armed bandit, which makes _ same as a one armed bandit, which makes you — same as a one armed bandit, which makes you addicted to the dam think of the _ makes you addicted to the dam think of the same as slot machines. and this is— of the same as slot machines. and this is the — of the same as slot machines. and this is the thing with humans and technology. —— the damn thing. has anyone _ technology. —— the damn thing. has anyone bothered to notice everyone has become overdependent on a smartphone, a smart speaker, whatsapp and all the other technology out there? when you hear people _ technology out there? when you hear people saying, say to a smart speaker— people saying, say to a smart speaker or saying, putting into a computer, — speaker or saying, putting into a computer, how do we vote? and you no, computer, how do we vote? and you go. for— computer, how do we vote? and you go. for crying — computer, how do we vote? and you go, for crying out loud! read, go and get — go, for crying out loud! read, go and get the information, there is enough _ and get the information, there is enough around. read what is going on and make _ enough around. read what is going on and make your own opinion, do you have _ and make your own opinion, do you have to _ and make your own opinion, do you have to have — and make your own opinion, do you have to have someone come a machine spoon-feed _ have to have someone come a machine spoon—feed you? the have to have someone come a machine spoon-feed you?— spoon-feed you? the genie is out of the bottle. that — spoon-feed you? the genie is out of the bottle. that is _ spoon-feed you? the genie is out of the bottle. that is it, _ spoon-feed you? the genie is out of the bottle. that is it, and _ spoon-feed you? the genie is out of the bottle. that is it, and this - spoon-feed you? the genie is out of the bottle. that is it, and this is - the bottle. that is it, and this is the bottle. that is it, and this is the danger- _ the bottle. that is it, and this is the danger. humans, _ the bottle. that is it, and this is the danger. humans, they - the bottle. that is it, and this is the danger. humans, they are i the bottle. that is it, and this is - the danger. humans, they are getting addicted _ the danger. humans, they are getting addicted but they are addicted to technology and they are going to become —

technology and they are going to become overdependent on it. and to become overdependent on it. and to be perfect _ become overdependent on it. and to be perfect —— perfectly honest, ai, as some _ be perfect —— perfectly honest, ai, as some of— be perfect —— perfectly honest, ai, as some of your contributors have said, _ as some of your contributors have said. nrost— as some of your contributors have said, most probably will lead to an authority— said, most probably will lead to an authority on society, especially with the — authority on society, especially with the way we share our data online~ — with the way we share our data online. this is what we have to worry— online. this is what we have to worry about. look at what is going on in _ worry about. look at what is going on in china — worry about. look at what is going on in china. do we really want that? it is on in china. do we really want that? it is all— on in china. do we really want that? it is all well — on in china. do we really want that? it is all well and good government saying. _ it is all well and good government saying. it — it is all well and good government saying, it won't be like that. i have — saying, it won't be like that. i have heard _ saying, it won't be like that. i have heard all this before. we know what happens with various technologies in the past. nuclear. don't _ technologies in the past. nuclear. don't get — technologies in the past. nuclear. don't get me wrong, nuclear can be very good — don't get me wrong, nuclear can be very good. we have nuclear medicine. radiotherapy and all that. but we have also— radiotherapy and all that. but we have also seen the bad side. i�*m have also seen the bad side. i'm caettin a have also seen the bad side. in getting a just, sarah. have also seen the bad side. in getting ajust, sarah. zoe, iwill getting a just, sarah. zoe, iwill be with you. zoe kleinman, bbc technology editor, hello. why have they said this now?— technology editor, hello. why have they said this now? well, i think we are at a point— they said this now? well, i think we are at a point now _ they said this now? well, i think we are at a point now where _ they said this now? well, i think we are at a point now where ai - they said this now? well, i think we are at a point now where ai is - they said this now? well, i think we are at a point now where ai isjust l are at a point now where ai is just getting better and better at what it

does and it has happened a lot more quickly than people realised. you only have to think about the viral chatbot, hundreds of people have used it, we have only used it for six months, and already, the latest version of it, gpt—4, is clever enough to pass the bar exam taken by cheney lawyers. so we have seen this amazing pace of evolution, i have not evolved that much in six months, i don't know whether you have, but these things are growing incredibly fast and the bosses of the big companies behind them, we heard the boss of google, which owns its own chatbot called bard, saying he does not know why it does sometimes what it does and if he doesn't know, who does know? the people who created it are now calling out for a moment of time tojust figure are now calling out for a moment of time to just figure out how we keep control of it. because if we do keep control of it. because if we do keep control of it. because if we do keep control of it, the benefits are enormous. just this week, we saw the

ai tool discovering a new antibiotic, amazing, it has led to the development of a microchip that has helped a paralysed man walking again just by thinking about it, the benefits are phenomenal. but the fear is keeping control of it as it gets better. this new kind of ai core generative ai, traditionally, ai has been good at doing one thing well. you would have a robot arm that picks up something from a conveyor belt and that is all it does and it cannot do anything else. we are entering an era where like us, ai, multi task and that is where people are concerned about how that will exist alongside humans, that is our skill, will exist alongside humans, that is ourskill, isn't will exist alongside humans, that is our skill, isn't it, the multitasking?- our skill, isn't it, the multitasking? our skill, isn't it, the multitaskinu? , ., , our skill, isn't it, the multitaskinu? ., , ., multitasking? yes, some of us. not necessarily — multitasking? yes, some of us. not necessarily myself! _ multitasking? yes, some of us. not necessarily myself! in _ multitasking? yes, some of us. not necessarily myself! in theory. - multitasking? yes, some of us. not necessarily myself! in theory. you i necessarily myself! in theory. you said it very — necessarily myself! in theory. you said it very well _ necessarily myself! in theory. you said it very well earlier _ necessarily myself! in theory. you said it very well earlier on - necessarily myself! in theory. you said it very well earlier on and - said it very well earlier on and just in that first answer. and i attempted... i said, just in that first answer. and i attempted... isaid, get just in that first answer. and i attempted... i said, get in touch and don't worry if you don't understand it because the people who

invented it don't understand it either, there is a bit of that, isn't there?— either, there is a bit of that, isn't there? j ~ ., , isn't there? they're kind of is, it isn't there? they're kind of is, it is incredibly _ isn't there? they're kind of is, it is incredibly complicated, - isn't there? they're kind of is, it is incredibly complicated, i - isn't there? they're kind of is, it is incredibly complicated, i will i is incredibly complicated, i will not try to explain how algorithms work because we would be here all day and i am not sure i would fully do a greatjob of that. the point i suppose about so many things now, you could say that about lots of technology, cars, they are more computers, the days of tinkering under the bonnet of a newer car have all but disappeared. and i think we are asked to trust in this technology just as we are asked to trust in this technologyjust as we have been asked to trust in technologies previously. and what we have seen, i was reading this incredible forum last night people talking about where they get help and support for worries and concerns a mental health issues and somebody said they chat their worries into map —— they put their worries into map —— they put their worries into chatgpt. six months into this new technology and we are using it as a therapist. that worries me- _ we are using it as a therapist. that worries me. perhaps _ we are using it as a therapist. that worries me. perhaps it _ we are using it as a therapist. that worries me. perhaps it is - we are using it as a therapist. that worries me. perhaps it is coming i we are using it as a therapist. thati worries me. perhaps it is coming up with answers _ worries me. perhaps it is coming up with answers you _ worries me. perhaps it is coming up with answers you would _ worries me. perhaps it is coming up with answers you would not - worries me. perhaps it is coming up with answers you would not think i with answers you would not think about yourself and therapist would

not give you. the database of chatgpt is the internet and it has access to an enormous wealth of information and it finds patterns, thatis information and it finds patterns, that is all it is doing, it is not sentience and talking to you, it finds links and data very quickly and presents it to you in a humanlike way, that is what it does. it doesn't reflect greatly on ours and that shows as we are wired up to do the same things. and we are not greater than the sum of our parts at all, we arejust greater than the sum of our parts at all, we are just very complicated and impressive parts and that is it because it does what we do. we like to think we have got the emotional intelligence, but you are saying when it comes to solving problems, ai can do it without any emotional intelligence. ai can do it without any emotional intelligence-— intelligence. well, what it can do is use an enormous _ intelligence. well, what it can do is use an enormous amount - intelligence. well, what it can do is use an enormous amount of. intelligence. well, what it can do i is use an enormous amount of data that you and i can't. recently, i was talking to a guy measuring earthquake activity in new zealand in an area where they are overdue a massive earthquake and he is looking at the fibre optic broadband cables buried on the ground and how they are vibrating. the kit he is using is generating one gigabit of data

per minute this is an enormous amount of data. you and i would explode before we even got through the first minute of it. he has built an algorithm that can turn this data so quickly and it is giving him all sorts of insights into the earthquake activity in this area. it is potentially going to give a solution to a problem that is beyond human comprehension. ai enthusiasts would tell you that is exactly its job. sam altman, he says, chatgpt is a tool and not a feature. we need to remember that, a tool and not a feature. we need to rememberthat, it a tool and not a feature. we need to remember that, it is meant to be a tool to help us, it is meant to be, some people say, will it be like the printing press moment customer potentially, if we get it right, yes, it will be.— potentially, if we get it right, es, it will be. ., .,, . , ,, yes, it will be. fantastic. -- press moment? — yes, it will be. fantastic. -- press moment? potentially. _ yes, it will be. fantastic. -- press moment? potentially. can - yes, it will be. fantastic. -- press moment? potentially. can i - yes, it will be. fantastic. -- press moment? potentially. can i take. yes, it will be. fantastic. -- press| moment? potentially. can i take a minute, moment? potentially. can i take a minute. nicky. — moment? potentially. can i take a minute, nicky, to _ moment? potentially. can i take a minute, nicky, to help— moment? potentially. can i take a minute, nicky, to help people - minute, nicky, to help people understand how they can understand this for— understand how they can understand this for themselves? your caller has made _ this for themselves? your caller has made because she has done a fantastic— made because she has done a fantasticjob of giving an outline,

i fantasticjob of giving an outline, i think _ fantastic “0b of giving an outline, i think. �* �* fantastic “0b of giving an outline, ithink. “ ., fantastic “0b of giving an outline, ithink. ., , i think. bbc correspondent, that is what we do- _ i think. bbc correspondent, that is what we do. she _ i think. bbc correspondent, that is what we do. she is _ i think. bbc correspondent, that is what we do. she is brilliant. - i think. bbc correspondent, that is what we do. she is brilliant. very i what we do. she is brilliant. very quickly, i want to bring injames and sarah. we have also got a postdoctoral researcher of computational genomics at the university of oxford. ii computational genomics at the university of oxford.— computational genomics at the university of oxford. if anyone has a encil university of oxford. if anyone has a pencil and _ university of oxford. if anyone has a pencil and pen. _ university of oxford. if anyone has a pencil and pen, just _ university of oxford. if anyone has a pencil and pen, just write - university of oxford. if anyone has a pencil and pen, just write down i a pencil and pen, just write down gpt three — a pencil and pen, just write down gpt three and gpt—4. you can access gpt three and gpt—4. you can access gpt treat _ gpt three and gpt—4. you can access gpt treat for — gpt three and gpt—4. you can access gpt treat for free, put it into google _ gpt treat for free, put it into google. and play with it for half an houl’, _ google. and play with it for half an hour, one — google. and play with it for half an hour, one hour, don't be afraid to ask the _ hour, one hour, don't be afraid to ask the most— hour, one hour, don't be afraid to ask the most stupid things. i asked shakespeare _ ask the most stupid things. i asked shakespeare to _ ask the most stupid things. i asked shakespeare to write _ ask the most stupid things. i asked shakespeare to write a _ ask the most stupid things. i asked shakespeare to write a beatles - ask the most stupid things. i asked i shakespeare to write a beatles song and it was really good. yes. and it was really good. yes, whatever- — and it was really good. yes, whatever. me _ and it was really good. yes, whatever. me and _ and it was really good. yes, whatever. me and my - and it was really good. yes, i whatever. me and my daughter and it was really good. yes, whatever. me and my daughter had a row last— whatever. me and my daughter had a row last week and i explained and gpt gave — row last week and i explained and gpt gave me good guidance. do that for half— gpt gave me good guidance. do that for half an— gpt gave me good guidance. do that for half an hour to one hour to two hours _ for half an hour to one hour to two hours and — for half an hour to one hour to two hours and a — for half an hour to one hour to two hours and a day. then go—to gpt—4. you have _ hours and a day. then go—to gpt—4. you have to — hours and a day. then go—to gpt—4. you have to pay 25 —— £20 for a

month, — you have to pay 25 —— £20 for a month, it — you have to pay 25 —— £20 for a month, it is _ you have to pay 25 —— £20 for a month, it is worth it, you can cancel— month, it is worth it, you can cancel it. _ month, it is worth it, you can cancel it, you don't need to pay more. — cancel it, you don't need to pay more. we — cancel it, you don't need to pay more, we pay £20 a month because it literally— more, we pay £20 a month because it literally helps us be about 20%, 25% more _ literally helps us be about 20%, 25% more efficient in our business. so it is the _ more efficient in our business. so it is the cheapest assistance we will ever— it is the cheapest assistance we will ever have, probably ever. it is not going — will ever have, probably ever. it is not going to — will ever have, probably ever. it is not going to be that cheap along. apt-4, — not going to be that cheap along. gpt-4, you — not going to be that cheap along. gpt—4, you pay your £20 and you play with it _ gpt—4, you pay your £20 and you play with it for _ gpt—4, you pay your £20 and you play with it for a _ gpt—4, you pay your £20 and you play with it for a day. it is the difference between somebody trying to tell _ difference between somebody trying to tell you about the beautiful waterfalls in canada versus actually _ waterfalls in canada versus actually. it is the only way. listening _ actually. it is the only way. listening to people's opinions, even experts, _ listening to people's opinions, even experts, we — listening to people's opinions, even experts, we had experts telling us tobacco _ experts, we had experts telling us tobacco was conscious for years, we still smoked. we still gave ourselves cancer. i only gave up smoking — ourselves cancer. i only gave up smoking three or four years ago. but to see _ smoking three or four years ago. but to see it— smoking three or four years ago. but to see it yourself, nicky, it is unbelievable. | to see it yourself, nicky, it is unbelievable.— to see it yourself, nicky, it is unbelievable. ~ ., ~ ., unbelievable. i know, i know. good stuff and thank _

unbelievable. i know, i know. good stuff and thank you _ unbelievable. i know, i know. good stuff and thank you so _ unbelievable. i know, i know. good stuff and thank you so much. - unbelievable. i know, i know. good stuff and thank you so much. it - unbelievable. i know, i know. good stuff and thank you so much. it is l stuff and thank you so much. it is the difference _ stuff and thank you so much. it is the difference between gpt—3 and gpt—4, _ the difference between gpt—3 and gpt-4, that is the difference between gpt—3 and gpt—4, that is the stunning thing. that is— gpt—4, that is the stunning thing. that is what— gpt—4, that is the stunning thing. that is what changed my mind about four months ago. and that is what changed my mind about four months ago.— four months ago. and change your life. i am tempted, _ four months ago. and change your life. i am tempted, i— four months ago. and change your life. i am tempted, i have - four months ago. and change your life. i am tempted, i have enough| life. i am tempted, i have enough subscriptions going on. it life. i am tempted, i have enough subscriptions going on.— subscriptions going on. it will be the best 20 _ subscriptions going on. it will be the best 20 quid _ subscriptions going on. it will be the best 20 quid you _ subscriptions going on. it will be the best 20 quid you ever- subscriptions going on. it will be the best 20 quid you ever bet. i subscriptions going on. it will be - the best 20 quid you ever bet. well, we will see — the best 20 quid you ever bet. well, we will see about _ the best 20 quid you ever bet. well, we will see about that. _ the best 20 quid you ever bet. well, we will see about that. you - the best 20 quid you ever bet. -ii we will see about that. you have sold it. and you have sold it really, really well. kevin, thanks for getting in touch, post doctoral researcher in computational genomics at the university of oxford. do you share the concerns, kevin? i can understand _ share the concerns, kevin? i can understand the _ share the concerns, kevin? i can understand the concern. - share the concerns, kevin? i can understand the concern. i - share the concerns, kevin? i can understand the concern. i would describe myself as an ai enthusiast like we mentioned earlier because i am using statistics and machine learning and artificial intelligence in my daily work to understand the human body and how it reacts to disease or infection. ai, my point really today is it has been mentioned a few times, it is really

a tool. just like any tool, it can be used by bad actors and good actors. it can be trained with good data and bad data. so i like to think of myself as a good actor as a scientist trying to use ai for the greater good, for understanding disease and helping progress in medical research and science. but yes, i can understand the fear of bad actors using ai with personal information for scams and all those bad things we have heard of overhead lines. so, yes, i mean, the bad actors using that for bad purposes, i thinkjust like you mentioned can with technological leaps, there are good actors balancing that on the other side —— we have heard in the headlines. you cannot prevent people using technology for bad purposes, but you can try to control it and regulate it or have good actors on the other side balancing it out.

tell me this very quickly, i want to get some of the calls because we have had so much response, people are really engaged by this. in a sentence, and i asked this earlier of dan. this —— the destruction of humanity by ai, give me the scenario very quickly. the humanity by ai, give me the scenario very quickly-— very quickly. the destruction of humanity through _ very quickly. the destruction of humanity through ai. _ very quickly. the destruction of humanity through ai. by - very quickly. the destruction of humanity through ai. by al - humanity through ai. by al specifically, i don't know, i want to give anyone any bad ideas. but i was thinking actually that all the analogies you could pull out, we had the atomic power and we have had humanity could have ended up with atomic power. when the car was invented, you didn't get people running over each other with the cart. humanity could have ended by people driving a car over each other. people who understand ai i can use it for bad purposes for writing e—mails which are scams like stealing money from other people,

using that, it may not be humanity ending. if you think of an action movie. you have ai hacking into military bases and stuff. triggering the nukes all over the planet. i suppose theoretically, ai could be trained to doing that. you have a movie coming out. i trained to doing that. you have a movie coming out.— trained to doing that. you have a movie coming out. i have got you. that is what _ movie coming out. i have got you. that is what the _ movie coming out. i have got you. that is what the 350 _ movie coming out. i have got you. that is what the 350 of _ movie coming out. i have got you. that is what the 350 of the - movie coming out. i have got you. j that is what the 350 of the world's most distinguished experts in al sane, the possibility it could lead to our extinction, notjust of our species. blair in northwood in london, extinction of our purpose in life. how is it affecting you. hatter life. how is it affecting you. how is it affecting _ life. how is it affecting you. how is it affecting new _ life. how is it affecting you. how is it affecting new customer it is funny— is it affecting new customer it is funny because ai has affected, i work— funny because ai has affected, i work as— funny because ai has affected, i work as an — funny because ai has affected, i work as an artist and it has already affected _ work as an artist and it has already affected by— work as an artist and it has already affected by industry in ways it would — affected by industry in ways it would have been nice if they had kind of— would have been nice if they had kind of thought about the ethics. —— how is— kind of thought about the ethics. —— how is it _ kind of thought about the ethics. —— how is it affecting you? it is

funny _ how is it affecting you? it is funny. before they released the ai. as a painter, oras funny. before they released the ai. as a painter, or as an illustrator, your— as a painter, or as an illustrator, your work— as a painter, or as an illustrator, your work is— as a painter, or as an illustrator, your work is online and the data is there _ your work is online and the data is there so — your work is online and the data is there. so when you are working with an al _ there. so when you are working with an al as— there. so when you are working with an alas a _ there. so when you are working with an alas a tool because now we have to do. _ an ai as a tool because now we have to do. if— an alas a tool because now we have to do. if you — an alas a tool because now we have to do, if you are a graphic artist and you — to do, if you are a graphic artist and you need to produce and produce, you just _ and you need to produce and produce, you just type _ and you need to produce and produce, you just type in what it is you want. — you just type in what it is you want. a — you just type in what it is you want, a man playing a guitar with fro- want, a man playing a guitar with frog legs — want, a man playing a guitar with frog legs and magic realism wall and you want— frog legs and magic realism wall and you want an arena background and the ai you want an arena background and the at just _ you want an arena background and the ai just creates it. it is weird as an artist— ai just creates it. it is weird as an artist because it takes away the skills— an artist because it takes away the skills that — an artist because it takes away the skills that you went through hours upon _ skills that you went through hours upon hours — skills that you went through hours upon hours of school and extra classes. — upon hours of school and extra classes. it _ upon hours of school and extra classes, it kind of doesn't feel as creative — classes, it kind of doesn't feel as creative so— classes, it kind of doesn't feel as creative. so it have been nice, the cat got _ creative. so it have been nice, the cat got out — creative. so it have been nice, the cat got out of the bag, but it would have been— cat got out of the bag, but it would have been nice if there had been some _ have been nice if there had been some rules — have been nice if there had been some rules put onto it. and i think

you have _ some rules put onto it. and i think you have those apps and people are taking _ you have those apps and people are taking their photo and the ai is making — taking their photo and the ai is making crazy avatars and backgrounds, that is using facial recognition technology and that used to be that _ recognition technology and that used to be that you would go on to a website — to be that you would go on to a website to— to be that you would go on to a website to get a little job for artists— website to get a little job for artists making aside money if they have that — artists making aside money if they have that skill and now you have been _ have that skill and now you have been made obsolete. in the art industry. — been made obsolete. in the art industry, we are like, we had better figure _ industry, we are like, we had better figure this _ industry, we are like, we had better figure this out or we will become kind of— figure this out or we will become kind of like what happened to photography, we don't use film photography, we don't use film photography any more. i had to pick up photography any more. i had to pick up a digital— photography any more. i had to pick up a digital camera and learn the camera — up a digital camera and learn the camera. . w' up a digital camera and learn the camera. ., , , camera. let me ask you this quickly. because i camera. let me ask you this quickly. because i did — camera. let me ask you this quickly. because i did this _ camera. let me ask you this quickly. because i did this last _ camera. let me ask you this quickly. because i did this last time - camera. let me ask you this quickly. because i did this last time when - camera. let me ask you this quickly. because i did this last time when we j because i did this last time when we discussed the jobs issue, because i did this last time when we discussed thejobs issue, a graphic designer said, this is happening and it is really difficult. i said, are you on instagram? pare

it is really difficult. i said, are you on instagram?— it is really difficult. i said, are you on instagram? it is really difficult. i said, are ou on instauram? �* , ., you on instagram? are you? yes, i am blair one arts- _ you on instagram? are you? yes, i am blair one arts. can _ you on instagram? are you? yes, i am blair one arts. can we _ you on instagram? are you? yes, i am blair one arts. can we go _ you on instagram? are you? yes, i am blair one arts. can we go on _ you on instagram? are you? yes, i am blair one arts. can we go on like? - blair one arts. can we go on like? blair one arts. can we go on like? blair lamar— blair one arts. can we go on like? blair lamar arts. _ blair one arts. can we go on like? blair lamar arts. i'm _ blair one arts. can we go on like? blair lamar arts. i'm not - blair one arts. can we go on like? blair lamar arts. i'm not very - blair one arts. can we go on like? | blair lamar arts. i'm not very good at this. blair lamar arts. i'm not very good at this- you _ blair lamar arts. i'm not very good at this- you go _ blair lamar arts. i'm not very good at this. you go on _ blair lamar arts. i'm not very good at this. you go on instagram - blair lamar arts. i'm not very good at this. you go on instagram for. at this. you go on instagram for examle at this. you go on instagram for example as _ at this. you go on instagram for example as artists _ at this. you go on instagram for example as artists and - at this. you go on instagram for example as artists and this - at this. you go on instagram for- example as artists and this happens on social— example as artists and this happens on social media where your image .ets on social media where your image gets screenshot and used as social media _ gets screenshot and used as social media content and you are kind of like wait. — media content and you are kind of like wait, that is my image. sol work— like wait, that is my image. sol work on — like wait, that is my image. sol work on that and some people say, oh, work on that and some people say, oh. it— work on that and some people say, oh. it is— work on that and some people say, oh, it is exposure, but it is not if you are — oh, it is exposure, but it is not if you are not — oh, it is exposure, but it is not if you are not going to put who they are. ., , . , ., you are not going to put who they are. ., ,. , ., are. your pictures are brilliant. oh, are. your pictures are brilliant. oh. thank _ are. your pictures are brilliant. oh, thank you. _ are. your pictures are brilliant. oh, thank you. you _ are. your pictures are brilliant. oh, thank you. you are - oh, thank you. you are irreplaceable. - oh, thank you. you are irreplaceable. let's - oh, thank you. you are irreplaceable. let's be| oh, thank you. you are - irreplaceable. let's be confident about it. we have got to go, that

was great, thank you very much indeed. long live blair! not that one! fantastic artist. all power to the artists and your ingenuity and your creativity and long may it last and long may you outstrip and out draw, out to paint, out to design the technology. so anyway, anyway, what you want to ask our politicians? we have three coming up for you. this week, the conservative mp for crewe and nantwich, dr kieran mullan, the labour mp for torfaen and shadow secretary of state for international trade, nick thomas—symonds and the green party co—leader carla denyer. have a think about them, what is going on, what you want to ask and

get in touch. get your questions in now. and here is the news from karishma patel. the head of aslef — the train drivers union — has warned that zero progress has been made — in agreeing on a new pay deal with rail companies. over 12,000 drivers have walked out this morning. the government has said its latest pay offer is fair. the former russian president, dmitry medvedev, has warned that british officials are "legitimate military targets" because of the uk's support for ukraine. mr medvedev, a key ally of vladimir putin, accused britain of waging an "undeclared war" against russia. leading scientists from the field of artificial intelligence have warned that the technology could lead to the extinction of humanity. the centre for al safety

published a statement — saying ai should be a "global priority" alongside risks like pandemics and nuclear war. labour says the founder of ecotricity is a "perfectly legitimate person" to take donations from — despite having also donated to thejust stop oil campaign group. some senior conservatives have called for the party to return the money — but labour says it doesn't affect its views on the group. we have our politicians. parliament not sitting at the moment, but we still do it. doctor kieran mullan,

conservative mp from nantwich, and carla denyer, co—leader of the green party, and nick thomas symons, the shadow secretary of state for international trade. shadow secretary of state for internationaltrade. i shadow secretary of state for international trade. i know you have criticised the government's trade deals. you are critical of the deals with america and australia, and carla, i think you have been ever so slightly critical of some ofjust oil's tactics. i know you have a lot of sympathy for what they're trying to do, and the issues they're to raise, but they tried to reason about the rugby in chelsea flower show, and maybe they are losing some public sympathy. i know you have

criticised them, we will come to them. kieran, what have you criticised? ih them. kieran, what have you criticised?— them. kieran, what have you criticised? ., ., ., , ., , criticised? in what area? generally s-ueakin ? criticised? in what area? generally speaking? l _ criticised? in what area? generally speaking? i don't _ criticised? in what area? generally speaking? i don't know... - criticised? in what area? generally speaking? i don't know... i- criticised? in what area? generally speaking? i don't know... i have i speaking? i don't know... i have “oined in speaking? i don't know... i have joined in with — speaking? i don't know... i have joined in with the _ speaking? i don't know... i have joined in with the criticism - speaking? i don't know... i have joined in with the criticism of. speaking? i don't know... i have| joined in with the criticism of the extinction rebellion protests, as we've seen in recent weeks is really getting out of hand, deploying their tactics to disrupt for everybody, i think it's really got to stop. carlo, of course, some people want to do phone ins on this, a considerable number of people think they are raising this issue quite rightly and doing this as they can, because that's how it gets attention. they are the suffragettes of our days. you must have sympathy with that, carla. of our days. you must have sympathy with that. carla-— with that, carla. yes, when you look back in history. _ with that, carla. yes, when you look back in history, many _ with that, carla. yes, when you look back in history, many of _ with that, carla. yes, when you look back in history, many of the - with that, carla. yes, when you look i back in history, many of the moments we now— back in history, many of the moments we now celebrate is moving society forward. _ we now celebrate is moving society forward, making a fairer society, happened —

forward, making a fairer society, happened because of nonviolent direct— happened because of nonviolent direct action, and there is a place for peaceful protests in any democracy, you look at places that stanip _ democracy, you look at places that stamp down on peaceful protest, and you see _ stamp down on peaceful protest, and you see the _ stamp down on peaceful protest, and you see the effect that hasn't democracy and human rights at large, and i defend the to peaceful protest. _ and i defend the to peaceful protest, ijust sometimes get asked to answer— protest, ijust sometimes get asked to answer on their behalf, and my 'ob, to answer on their behalf, and my job. as _ to answer on their behalf, and my job, as co—leader of the green party. — job, as co—leader of the green party. is — job, as co—leader of the green party, is not to arbitrate on protest. _ party, is not to arbitrate on protest. it— party, is not to arbitrate on protest, it is to achieve positive change — protest, it is to achieve positive change on — protest, it is to achieve positive change on environmental and social justice _ change on environmental and social justice issues through the political process. _ justice issues through the political process, so that's my priority. nick. — process, so that's my priority. nick. you _ process, so that's my priority. nick, you must have some sympathy. labour has a massive green agenda for these people. is there hot on the right place? i for these people. is there hot on the right place?— the right place? i 'ust think what 'ust sto

the right place? i 'ust think what just stop on — the right place? i 'ust think what just stop on is _ the right place? ijust think what just stop oil is doing _ the right place? ijust think what just stop oil is doing is - just stop oil is doing is unacceptable - just stop oil is doing is unacceptable and - unacceptable and counter— productive. unfortunately — unacceptable and counter—productive. unfortunately the _ unacceptable and counter—productive. unfortunately the tactics _ unacceptable and counter—productive. unfortunately the tactics they - unacceptable and counter—productive. unfortunately the tactics they are - unfortunately the tactics they are using _ unfortunately the tactics they are using is— unfortunately the tactics they are using is not— unfortunately the tactics they are using is not building _ unfortunately the tactics they are using is not building their- using is not building their consensus _ using is not building their consensus across- using is not building their consensus across society| using is not building their- consensus across society that we need. _ consensus across society that we need. in — consensus across society that we need. in fact— consensus across society that we need. in fact the— consensus across society that we need, in fact the opposite, - consensus across society that we i need, in fact the opposite, they're driving _ need, in fact the opposite, they're driving people _ need, in fact the opposite, they're driving people away— need, in fact the opposite, they're driving people away from - need, in fact the opposite, they're i driving people away from supporting this, driving people away from supporting this. and _ driving people away from supporting this. and also— driving people away from supporting this. and also i— driving people away from supporting this, and also i would _ driving people away from supporting this, and also i would say, _ driving people away from supporting this, and also i would say, we - driving people away from supporting this, and also i would say, we talk. this, and also i would say, we talk about— this, and also i would say, we talk about them — this, and also i would say, we talk about them gaining _ this, and also i would say, we talk about them gaining tensioning - this, and also i would say, we talk| about them gaining tensioning and garnering debate, _ about them gaining tensioning and garnering debate, they— about them gaining tensioning and garnering debate, they seem - about them gaining tensioning and garnering debate, they seem to i about them gaining tensioning and j garnering debate, they seem to be garnering — garnering debate, they seem to be garnering and _ garnering debate, they seem to be garnering and generating - garnering debate, they seem to be garnering and generating a - garnering debate, they seem to be garnering and generating a debate| garnering and generating a debate about— garnering and generating a debate about public— garnering and generating a debate about public order— garnering and generating a debate about public order laws, _ garnering and generating a debate about public order laws, not - about public order laws, not actually _ about public order laws, not actually the _ about public order laws, not actually the debate - about public order laws, not actually the debate that - about public order laws, not| actually the debate that they about public order laws, not - actually the debate that they want to be _ actually the debate that they want to be generating, _ actually the debate that they want to be generating, so _ actually the debate that they want to be generating, so i'm _ actually the debate that they want to be generating, so i'm afraid - actually the debate that they want to be generating, so i'm afraid i. to be generating, so i'm afraid i don't _ to be generating, so i'm afraid i don't have — to be generating, so i'm afraid i don't have any— to be generating, so i'm afraid i don't have any sympathy - to be generating, so i'm afraid i don't have any sympathy with i to be generating, so i'm afraid i. don't have any sympathy with the actions _ don't have any sympathy with the actions of— don't have any sympathy with the actions ofjust _ don't have any sympathy with the actions ofjust stop _ don't have any sympathy with the actions ofjust stop oil. - don't have any sympathy with the actions ofjust stop oil.— don't have any sympathy with the actions ofjust stop oil. konate can i 'ust actions ofjust stop oil. konate can ijust come — actions ofjust stop oil. konate can ijust come into _ actions ofjust stop oil. konate can ijust come into say, _ actions ofjust stop oil. konate can ijust come into say, the _ actions ofjust stop oil. konate can ijust come into say, the thing - actions ofjust stop oil. konate can ijust come into say, the thing i - ijust come into say, the thing i found interesting was the idea that people were not allowed to protest at the coronation, it was authoritarian crackdown, i was lucky enough to be there, there are plenty of sign saying not making an plenty

protest. but of sign saying not making an plenty rotest. �* , ., , ., , protest. but people were arrested for no good _ protest. but people were arrested for no good reason. _ protest. but people were arrested for no good reason. as _ protest. but people were arrested for no good reason. as i _ protest. but people were arrested for no good reason. as i said, - for no good reason. as i said, olice for no good reason. as i said, police have — for no good reason. as i said, police have to _ for no good reason. as i said, police have to make - for no good reason. as i said, i police have to make judgments for no good reason. as i said, - police have to make judgments on the day as to who will go too far, they won't get it right every time, but to people really think it would have been appropriate for have the entire coronation tracked down for having people disrupting it? that is the dividing line we are creating. glad to hear nick saying what he just said, but we want people to go about their business and not be disrupted, you can protest, but it's what you can disrupt the day—to—day people trying to get on with their lives. the important difference with the suffragettes as they didn't have the vote, didn't have a way to get change in the democratic system. these people do. if they want change, they should do what other politicians do, like i do, go and knock on doors and speak to people, try and get elected and change policy, not to try to blackmail the nation, a small number of people

with extreme views... nation, a small number of people with extreme views. . .— nation, a small number of people with extreme views... extreme views? ma come with extreme views... extreme views? may come in — with extreme views... extreme views? may come in for _ with extreme views... extreme views? may come in for a _ with extreme views... extreme views? may come in for a second? _ with extreme views... extreme views? may come in for a second? so, - with extreme views... extreme views? may come in for a second? so, the - may come in for a second? so, the reason _ may come in for a second? so, the reason i _ may come in for a second? so, the reason i got — may come in for a second? so, the reason i got involved in politics, and the — reason i got involved in politics, and the reason ijoined the green party. _ and the reason ijoined the green party. was — and the reason ijoined the green party, was because i see the best way of— party, was because i see the best way of achieving changes through the political— way of achieving changes through the political process, and unfortunately it is because all from conservatives and labour— it is because all from conservatives and labour were not doing enough on climate _ and labour were not doing enough on climate change and are making this a fairer— climate change and are making this a fairer country, and that's where i stood _ fairer country, and that's where i stood to— fairer country, and that's where i stood to the green party. that is absolutely — stood to the green party. that is absolutely what many people who are very passionate about climate change are doing. _ very passionate about climate change are doing, that's why we have seen record _ are doing, that's why we have seen record results in his local elections, but on protests, you know what the _ elections, but on protests, you know what the number one way would or to stop all— what the number one way would or to stop all of— what the number one way would or to stop all of the climate processor are happening in this country? it would _ are happening in this country? it would be — are happening in this country? it would be to deliver bold climate policy _ would be to deliver bold climate policy so — would be to deliver bold climate policy so they do not need to protest _ policy so they do not need to rotest. ~ ., ., ., ., , protest. we do, and we are the only count in protest. we do, and we are the only country in the _ protest. we do, and we are the only country in the g7 _ protest. we do, and we are the only country in the g7 are _ protest. we do, and we are the only country in the g7 are in _ protest. we do, and we are the only country in the g7 are in the - protest. we do, and we are the only

country in the g7 are in the top - protest. we do, and we are the only country in the g7 are in the top ten i country in the g7 are in the top ten on climate change, the fastest on decarbonisation becomes the energy system. it these protesters, they want to purchase anywhere, they should be outside the embassy in china. we are the only g7 nation in the top ten in the rankings, and i wish the green party and other climate processes would at least give that information to people. there are different challenges for other countries, it's very challenging for countries like us, but we are at the front of the pack, and i think it's important people understand this. there are so much more that we should be doing. input of the actual practical record of this government, and is very positive. this government, and is very ositive. ., ., positive. kieran, i do understand that, i positive. kieran, i do understand that. i am _ positive. kieran, i do understand that. i am an _ positive. kieran, i do understand that, i am an engineer, - positive. kieran, i do understand that, i am an engineer, used - positive. kieran, i do understand that, i am an engineer, used to i positive. kieran, i do understand - that, i am an engineer, used to work in renewable — that, i am an engineer, used to work in renewable energy industry, i understand how fast the uk is going on renewable energy, and you're right. _ on renewable energy, and you're right. it — on renewable energy, and you're right. it is — on renewable energy, and you're right, it is better than some of countries _ right, it is better than some of countries. unfortunately, ialso understand the climate science, which _ understand the climate science, which are — understand the climate science, which are not going nearly fast enough — which are not going nearly fast enough. it's entirely possible for those _ enough. it's entirely possible for those two — enough. it's entirely possible for those two things to be true at the

same _ those two things to be true at the same time, that we are doing better than some _ same time, that we are doing better than some of the countries and that we are _ than some of the countries and that we are still— than some of the countries and that we are still not doing as well as well as— we are still not doing as well as well as we _ we are still not doing as well as well as we should be. you are bringing — well as we should be. you are bringing up china, i couldn't stop myself from sighing and rolling my eyes at _ myself from sighing and rolling my eyes at that, because per capita, per head — eyes at that, because per capita, per head of— eyes at that, because per capita, per head of population, china's emissions _ per head of population, china's emissions are much less than those of the _ emissions are much less than those of the uk _ emissions are much less than those of the uk. so, are you blaming them 'ust of the uk. so, are you blaming them just for— of the uk. so, are you blaming them just for being a large country? i�*m just for being a large country? i'm sa int just for being a large country? in saying different countries have different challenges, the ways in which our lifestyles are developed, i'm glad you decided to take the route of democratic election, but there's a reason the green party are not running the country, because actually the kind of policies you would advocate and not tenable, and as you say, is a global challenge, so what i want is for the uk to be at the leading edge of that challenge, which we are, but i don't give reasonable to expect the british public to carry a disproportionate burden for that challenge, when actually, whether we were perfect and it isn't really going to change the dial globally, other countries like china, india,

america, the actually have to make a big changes. absolutely, per capita, china remit less, but still, if this problem is to be tackled, china, america and other countries have a much more important role i want is for us to be the leader of that, and we absolutely are, and we can be really proud our record. 50 we absolutely are, and we can be really proud our record.— really proud our record. so you don't mind _ really proud our record. so you don't mind if— really proud our record. so you don't mind if we _ really proud our record. so you don't mind if we have - really proud our record. so you don't mind if we have runaway| don't mind if we have runaway climate — don't mind if we have runaway climate change as long as we are at the top _ climate change as long as we are at the top of— climate change as long as we are at the top of the league table? no, what we're _ the top of the league table? no, what we're saying _ the top of the league table? in. what we're saying is that if we are even further ahead at the league table doesn't make a difference in terms of global climate change. we have to be setting an example, and if other people catch up with us, we can make sure we are ahead, but what is the point of asking the british public to pay on the nose and cost without achieving anything? i have to fact check _ without achieving anything? i have to fact check that. _ without achieving anything? i have to fact check that. i _ without achieving anything? i have to fact check that. i just _ without achieving anything? i have to fact check that. i just have - without achieving anything? i have to fact check that. i just have to i to fact check that. ijust have to fact check— to fact check that. ijust have to fact check that extraordinary claim, that we _ fact check that extraordinary claim, that we are — fact check that extraordinary claim, that we are asking the british public— that we are asking the british public to— that we are asking the british public to pay an inordinate cost. the research is super clear that

investing — the research is super clear that investing in tackling climate change will save _ investing in tackling climate change will save the country loads of money — will save the country loads of money i— will save the country loads of money. i can't render the exact number. — money. i can't render the exact number, globally it's trillions of pounds — number, globally it's trillions of pounds that can be saved by taking bold climate action now, and that's because _ bold climate action now, and that's because if— bold climate action now, and that's because if we don't do that, the cost _ because if we don't do that, the cost of— because if we don't do that, the cost of climate change down the track _ cost of climate change down the track will — cost of climate change down the track will be much worse, and so niany_ track will be much worse, and so many of— track will be much worse, and so many of the _ track will be much worse, and so many of the measures that help climate — many of the measures that help climate emissions, it's notjust hypothetical or a long—time benefit, it benefits _ hypothetical or a long—time benefit, it benefits people writing here and now. _ it benefits people writing here and now. so _ it benefits people writing here and now, so for example if the government rolled out a home insulation— government rolled out a home insulation programme, as the green party— insulation programme, as the green party is _ insulation programme, as the green party is recalling out to be back for four— party is recalling out to be back for four decades, that would bring down _ for four decades, that would bring down bills— for four decades, that would bring down bills in the here and now as bringing — down bills in the here and now as bringing down climate emissions. can i come in bringing down climate emissions. i come in on bringing down climate emissions. can i come in on this? nick, _ bringing down climate emissions. can i come in on this? nick, you - bringing down climate emissions. can i come in on this? nick, you can - i come in on this? nick, you can st ueeze i come in on this? nick, you can squeeze out _ i come in on this? nick, you can squeeze out of _ i come in on this? nick, you can squeeze out of the _ i come in on this? nick, you can squeeze out of the debate - i come in on this? nick, you canj squeeze out of the debate here! i come in on this? nick, you can. squeeze out of the debate here! i know, it's good to come in. this came _ know, it's good to come in. this came about _ know, it's good to come in. this came about the _ know, it's good to come in. this came about the government - came about the government being climate _ came about the government being climate leaders, _ came about the government being climate leaders, they— came about the government being climate leaders, they brought - came about the government being climate leaders, they brought in i came about the government being climate leaders, they brought in a| climate leaders, they brought in a

moratorium — climate leaders, they brought in a moratorium on _ climate leaders, they brought in a moratorium on wind _ climate leaders, they brought in a moratorium on wind in _ climate leaders, they brought in a moratorium on wind in 2015 - climate leaders, they brought in a moratorium on wind in 2015 and i climate leaders, they brought in a i moratorium on wind in 2015 and stop your progress — moratorium on wind in 2015 and stop your progress that _ moratorium on wind in 2015 and stop your progress. that wasn't _ moratorium on wind in 2015 and stop your progress. that wasn't setting i your progress. that wasn't setting an example — your progress. that wasn't setting an example. they _ your progress. that wasn't setting an example. they haven't - your progress. that wasn't setting an example. they haven't shown i your progress. that wasn't setting i an example. they haven't shown the climate _ an example. they haven't shown the climate leadership _ an example. they haven't shown the climate leadership on _ an example. they haven't shown the climate leadership on the _ an example. they haven't shown the climate leadership on the global- climate leadership on the global stage _ climate leadership on the global stage that — climate leadership on the global stage that i _ climate leadership on the global stage that i think— climate leadership on the global stage that i think is— climate leadership on the global stage that i think is necessary. i stage that i think is necessary. what _ stage that i think is necessary. what we — stage that i think is necessary. what we want _ stage that i think is necessary. what we want to _ stage that i think is necessary. what we want to see _ stage that i think is necessary. what we want to see is - stage that i think is necessary. what we want to see is what i stage that i think is necessary. i what we want to see is what we stage that i think is necessary. - what we want to see is what we call the clean _ what we want to see is what we call the clean energy— what we want to see is what we call the clean energy sprints, _ what we want to see is what we call the clean energy sprints, we - what we want to see is what we call the clean energy sprints, we want i what we want to see is what we call| the clean energy sprints, we want to see this _ the clean energy sprints, we want to see this move — the clean energy sprints, we want to see this move to _ the clean energy sprints, we want to see this move to renewables- the clean energy sprints, we want to see this move to renewables by- the clean energy sprints, we want to i see this move to renewables by 2030. that's— see this move to renewables by 2030. that's the _ see this move to renewables by 2030. that's the scale — see this move to renewables by 2030. that's the scale of— see this move to renewables by 2030. that's the scale of our— see this move to renewables by 2030. that's the scale of our ambition. - see this move to renewables by 2030. that's the scale of our ambition. on i that's the scale of our ambition. on the issue _ that's the scale of our ambition. on the issue of— that's the scale of our ambition. on the issue of home _ that's the scale of our ambition. on the issue of home insulation, - that's the scale of our ambition. on the issue of home insulation, which| the issue of home insulation, which carla _ the issue of home insulation, which carla guite — the issue of home insulation, which carla quite rightly— the issue of home insulation, which carla quite rightly raised, _ the issue of home insulation, which carla quite rightly raised, there's. carla quite rightly raised, there's millions— carla quite rightly raised, there's millions of— carla quite rightly raised, there's millions of homes _ carla quite rightly raised, there's millions of homes today - carla quite rightly raised, there's millions of homes today that - carla quite rightly raised, there'si millions of homes today that don't have appropriate _ millions of homes today that don't have appropriate insulation - millions of homes today that don't have appropriate insulation that i have appropriate insulation that should — have appropriate insulation that should have _ have appropriate insulation that should have it, _ have appropriate insulation that should have it, and _ have appropriate insulation that should have it, and the - have appropriate insulation that should have it, and the reason. have appropriate insulation that i should have it, and the reason we should _ should have it, and the reason we should do— should have it, and the reason we should do all— should have it, and the reason we should do all this _ should have it, and the reason we should do all this and _ should have it, and the reason we should do all this and have - should have it, and the reason we should do all this and have that i should do all this and have that ambition— should do all this and have that ambition to _ should do all this and have that ambition to tackle _ should do all this and have that ambition to tackle climate - should do all this and have that. ambition to tackle climate change, but also _ ambition to tackle climate change, but also to— ambition to tackle climate change, but also to give _ ambition to tackle climate change, but also to give us _ ambition to tackle climate change, but also to give us energy - ambition to tackle climate change, but also to give us energy security| but also to give us energy security so we _ but also to give us energy security so we are — but also to give us energy security so we are not— but also to give us energy security so we are not reliant _ but also to give us energy security so we are not reliant on _ but also to give us energy security so we are not reliant on dictatorsi so we are not reliant on dictators like putin. — so we are not reliant on dictators like putin, but— so we are not reliant on dictators like putin, but also _ so we are not reliant on dictators like putin, but also to _ so we are not reliant on dictators like putin, but also to bring - like putin, but also to bring people's— like putin, but also to bring people's bills _ like putin, but also to bring people's bills down - like putin, but also to bring people's bills down in - like putin, but also to bring people's bills down in the i like putin, but also to bring. people's bills down in the here like putin, but also to bring - people's bills down in the here and now. _ people's bills down in the here and now. that's — people's bills down in the here and now, that's what _ people's bills down in the here and now, that's what we _ people's bills down in the here and now, that's what we need - people's bills down in the here and now, that's what we need to - people's bills down in the here and now, that's what we need to see, i people's bills down in the here and i now, that's what we need to see, and in regards _ now, that's what we need to see, and in regards kieran's_ now, that's what we need to see, and in regards kieran's points _ now, that's what we need to see, and in regards kieran's points what - now, that's what we need to see, and in regards kieran's points what the i in regards kieran's points what the public— in regards kieran's points what the public order— in regards kieran's points what the public order legislation, _ in regards kieran's points what the public order legislation, the - public order legislation, the government— public order legislation, the government has— public order legislation, the government has done - public order legislation, the government has done that. public order legislation, the i government has done that are public order legislation, the - government has done that are more than one _ government has done that are more than one occasion _ government has done that are more than one occasion in _ government has done that are more than one occasion in this— than one occasion in this parliament. _ than one occasion in this parliament, it _ than one occasion in this parliament, it hasn't - than one occasion in this- parliament, it hasn't worked, the grandstand. _ parliament, it hasn't worked, the grandstand. they—

parliament, it hasn't worked, the grandstand, they introduce - parliament, it hasn't worked, the grandstand, they introduce whatl parliament, it hasn't worked, the - grandstand, they introduce what they call these _ grandstand, they introduce what they call these wider— grandstand, they introduce what they call these wider powers, _ grandstand, they introduce what they call these wider powers, but - grandstand, they introduce what they call these wider powers, but in- call these wider powers, but in reality. — call these wider powers, but in reality. we _ call these wider powers, but in reality, we have _ call these wider powers, but in reality, we have fewer- call these wider powers, but in reality, we have fewer police i call these wider powers, but in. reality, we have fewer police out call these wider powers, but in- reality, we have fewer police out on the street _ reality, we have fewer police out on the street now _ reality, we have fewer police out on the street now 13— reality, we have fewer police out on the street now 13 years _ reality, we have fewer police out on the street now 13 years into- reality, we have fewer police out on the street now 13 years into a - the street now 13 years into a conservative _ the street now 13 years into a conservative government - the street now 13 years into a| conservative government and the street now 13 years into a - conservative government and we did in 2010. _ conservative government and we did in 2010. and — conservative government and we did in 2010. and it— conservative government and we did in 2010, and it is— conservative government and we did in 2010, and it is no— conservative government and we did in 2010, and it is no public— conservative government and we did in 2010, and it is no public service i in 2010, and it is no public service that is— in 2010, and it is no public service that is better— in 2010, and it is no public service that is better now— in 2010, and it is no public service that is better now than _ in 2010, and it is no public service that is better now than when - in 2010, and it is no public service that is better now than when the i that is better now than when the conservatives _ that is better now than when the conservatives started. _ that is better now than when the conservatives started. it - that is better now than when the conservatives started. it really. conservatives started. it really has been _ conservatives started. it really has been 13 _ conservatives started. it really has been 13 wasted _ conservatives started. it really has been 13 wasted years. _ conservatives started. it really has been 13 wasted years.— been 13 wasted years. let's go to wolverhampton _ been 13 wasted years. let's go to wolverhampton for _ been 13 wasted years. let's go to wolverhampton for a _ been 13 wasted years. let's go to wolverhampton for a question, i been 13 wasted years. let's go to - wolverhampton for a question, hello, david. sorry to keep you, it got lively and very interesting that. good conversation from our politicians. what is your question? my politicians. what is your question? my question is, if this country is doing so well, why is this a joke abroad? when people abroad think we are actually a joke because of this government and what has gone on, what is happening, because of the inquiries into lies? how can we

possibly be credible abroad with what has happened in the last three years? what has happened in the last three ears? ., _ what has happened in the last three ears? ., ., .,, what has happened in the last three ears? ., ., ., ,, years? you say what has happened? i thou~ht years? you say what has happened? i thought you — years? you say what has happened? i thought you were... _ years? you say what has happened? i thought you were... with _ years? you say what has happened? i thought you were... with what's - thought you were... with what's ha--ened thought you were... with what's happened over _ thought you were... with what's happened over the _ thought you were... with what's happened over the last - thought you were... with what's happened over the last three i thought you were... with what's i happened over the last three years regarding covid and everything else. i know the question you're asking, as well, with covid—19 inquiries chair granting a two day extension to the cabinet office to hand over boris johnson's to the cabinet office to hand over borisjohnson's unredacted covid era whatsapp, they are holding out and don't want to hand them over. what you think about that? if don't want to hand them over. what you think about that?— you think about that? if they have nothin: to you think about that? if they have nothing to hand, _ you think about that? if they have nothing to hand, why _ you think about that? if they have nothing to hand, why don't - you think about that? if they have nothing to hand, why don't they i you think about that? if they have i nothing to hand, why don't they had the rover? it's very simple. if they got nothing to hide regarding anything to do is covid, he would release everything. this has got nothing to do with that. if he's got nothing to do with that. if he's got nothing to do with that. if he's got nothing to worry about, he will

release all the information. kieran mullan, hand _ release all the information. kieran mullan, hand them _ release all the information. kieran mullan, hand them over. - release all the information. kieran mullan, hand them over. if- release all the information. kieran mullan, hand them over. if your i mullan, hand them over. if your message to borisjohnson, hand them over, kieran? flan message to boris johnson, hand them over. kieran?— over, kieran? can i speak on us havin: over, kieran? can i speak on us having nothing _ over, kieran? can i speak on us having nothing to _ over, kieran? can i speak on us having nothing to boast - over, kieran? can i speak on us having nothing to boast about? | over, kieran? can i speak on us - having nothing to boast about? no, we want you — having nothing to boast about? no, we want you to _ having nothing to boast about? ijr, we want you to come to this. having nothing to boast about? no, we want you to come to this. that's what the gentleman _ we want you to come to this. that's what the gentleman started - we want you to come to this. that's what the gentleman started to - we want you to come to this. that's what the gentleman started to ask| what the gentleman started to ask about. _ what the gentleman started to ask about, when it comes to ukraine and decarbonising we are leading the world _ decarbonising we are leading the world as — decarbonising we are leading the world. as to this issue of handing over— world. as to this issue of handing over documents, 55,000 documents have been— over documents, 55,000 documents have been handed over by the government, 24 witness statements, i think there's _ government, 24 witness statements, i think there's a suggestion that this is not _ think there's a suggestion that this is not fair. — think there's a suggestion that this is not fair, if you read the judgment in the debate there is going on— judgment in the debate there is going on with the inquiries chair, it's an _ going on with the inquiries chair, it's an unusual request to say that government should hand over absolutely everything unredacted, or any person— absolutely everything unredacted, or any person participating in an inquiry — any person participating in an inquiry a _ any person participating in an inquiry. a typical way this works is a legal— inquiry. a typical way this works is a legal team will go through the

information, whether that is whatsapp so documents or whatever a person _ whatsapp so documents or whatever a person taking part in quarry holes, and identify what is relevant. i think— and identify what is relevant. i think that's an understandable principle, with live only of the nhs. _ principle, with live only of the nhs, whether everything should be handed _ nhs, whether everything should be handed over to strangers... club boris johnson — handed over to strangers... club boris johnson was _ handed over to strangers... club boris johnson was at _ handed over to strangers... (1in boris johnson was at the heart handed over to strangers... citno boris johnson was at the heart of borisjohnson was at the heart of this. boris johnson was at the heart of this. , will boris johnson was at the heart of this-- will put _ boris johnson was at the heart of this.- will put you - boris johnson was at the heart of this.- will put you one - boris johnson was at the heart of this.- will put you one of. boris johnson was at the heart of i this.- will put you one of the this. yes... will put you one of the ork ie this. yes... will put you one of the pork pie plotter — this. yes... will put you one of the pork pie plotter is _ this. yes... will put you one of the pork pie plotter is looking - this. yes... will put you one of the pork pie plotter is looking to - this. yes... will put you one of the pork pie plotter is looking to oust i pork pie plotter is looking to oust borisjohnson? pork pie plotter is looking to oust boris johnson?_ pork pie plotter is looking to oust boris johnson?— pork pie plotter is looking to oust boris johnson? well, it's on public record that — boris johnson? well, it's on public record that i _ boris johnson? well, it's on public record that i as _ boris johnson? well, it's on public record that i as boris _ boris johnson? well, it's on public record that i as boris johnson - boris johnson? well, it's on public record that i as boris johnson notl record that i as borisjohnson not to stay, _ record that i as borisjohnson not to stay, i— record that i as borisjohnson not to stay, i do— record that i as borisjohnson not to stay, i do have to follow the rules, — to stay, i do have to follow the rules, i— to stay, i do have to follow the rules, i had _ to stay, i do have to follow the rules, i had to tell people they can see people — rules, i had to tell people they can see people in hospital, so i understand that. i think it is right for boris — understand that. i think it is right for borisjohnson to understand that. i think it is right for boris johnson to stand down. the second _ for boris johnson to stand down. the second point made about boris johnson's — second point made about boris johnson's messages, we've seen how

the shared _ johnson's messages, we've seen how the shared information that would be harmful_ the shared information that would be harmful to _ the shared information that would be harmful to boris potentially, with the police for example, so the ideas these _ the police for example, so the ideas these messages are not being looked up these messages are not being looked up properly and the relevant information is not being shared doesn't — information is not being shared doesn't really stand up to scrutiny. for the _ doesn't really stand up to scrutiny. for the inquiry person is saying is that she — for the inquiry person is saying is that she wants the absolutely everything and she will decide what is and _ everything and she will decide what is and isn't — everything and she will decide what is and isn't relevant, and that that is and isn't relevant, and that that is not _ is and isn't relevant, and that that is not the — is and isn't relevant, and that that is not the normal way these things run and _ is not the normal way these things run. and they will be the government asked _ run. and they will be the government asked the _ run. and they will be the government asked the court to look at that whether— asked the court to look at that whether that's right balance, but it's not— whether that's right balance, but it's not fair— whether that's right balance, but it's not fair to make out that this is about— it's not fair to make out that this is about a — it's not fair to make out that this is about a deliberate attempt to hide stuff, it's a very particular point _ hide stuff, it's a very particular point of— hide stuff, it's a very particular point of the law.— hide stuff, it's a very particular point of the law. carla, should be see them all? _ point of the law. carla, should be see them all? i _ point of the law. carla, should be see them all? i think _ point of the law. carla, should be see them all? i think david - point of the law. carla, should be see them all? i think david is - see them all? i think david is completely — see them all? i think david is completely right, _ see them all? i think david is completely right, if _ see them all? i think david is completely right, if they - see them all? i think david is| completely right, if they have nothing — completely right, if they have nothing to _ completely right, if they have nothing to hide, _ completely right, if they have nothing to hide, why- completely right, if they have nothing to hide, why don't . completely right, if they have i nothing to hide, why don't they completely right, if they have - nothing to hide, why don't theyjust hand them — nothing to hide, why don't theyjust hand them over? _ nothing to hide, why don't theyjust hand them over? let's _ nothing to hide, why don't theyjust hand them over? let's zoom - nothing to hide, why don't theyjust hand them over? let's zoom up - nothing to hide, why don't theyjust hand them over? let's zoom up to. nothing to hide, why don't theyjust . hand them over? let's zoom up to the context— hand them over? let's zoom up to the context of— hand them over? let's zoom up to the context of this — hand them over? let's zoom up to the context of this for _ hand them over? let's zoom up to the context of this for a _ hand them over? let's zoom up to the context of this for a moment, - hand them over? let's zoom up to the context of this for a moment, this - context of this for a moment, this is sopposed — context of this for a moment, this is sopposed to _ context of this for a moment, this is sopposed to he _ context of this for a moment, this is supposed to be a _ context of this for a moment, this is supposed to be a public- context of this for a moment, this is supposed to be a public inquiryl is supposed to be a public inquiry into the _ is supposed to be a public inquiry into the worst _ is supposed to be a public inquiry into the worst pandemic- is supposed to be a public inquiry into the worst pandemic to - is supposed to be a public inquiry into the worst pandemic to hit. is supposed to be a public inquiryl into the worst pandemic to hit this country— into the worst pandemic to hit this country for— into the worst pandemic to hit this country for 100 _ into the worst pandemic to hit this country for 100 years, _ into the worst pandemic to hit this country for 100 years, but - into the worst pandemic to hit this country for 100 years, but it - into the worst pandemic to hit this country for 100 years, but it won't| country for 100 years, but it won't be the _ country for 100 years, but it won't be the last. — country for 100 years, but it won't be the last. so— country for 100 years, but it won't be the last, so it _ country for 100 years, but it won't be the last, so it is _ country for 100 years, but it won't be the last, so it is essential- country for 100 years, but it won't be the last, so it is essential that| be the last, so it is essential that everyone — be the last, so it is essential that everyone cooperate _ be the last, so it is essential that everyone cooperate so _ be the last, so it is essential that everyone cooperate so that - be the last, so it is essential that everyone cooperate so that we i be the last, so it is essential that. everyone cooperate so that we can learn — everyone cooperate so that we can learn what _ everyone cooperate so that we can learn what went — everyone cooperate so that we can learn what went well— everyone cooperate so that we can learn what went well and - everyone cooperate so that we can learn what went well and what - everyone cooperate so that we canl learn what went well and what went wrong, _

learn what went well and what went wrong, and — learn what went well and what went wrong, and make _ learn what went well and what went wrong, and make better— learn what went well and what went wrong, and make better plans- learn what went well and what went wrong, and make better plans for. learn what went well and what went i wrong, and make better plans for the next one _ wrong, and make better plans for the next one. instead, _ wrong, and make better plans for the next one. instead, again, _ wrong, and make better plans for the next one. instead, again, we - wrong, and make better plans for the next one. instead, again, we have i next one. instead, again, we have this nauseating _ next one. instead, again, we have this nauseating site _ next one. instead, again, we have this nauseating site of— next one. instead, again, we have this nauseating site of the - next one. instead, again, we have this nauseating site of the formeri this nauseating site of the former prime _ this nauseating site of the former prime minister— this nauseating site of the former prime minister behaving - this nauseating site of the former prime minister behaving as - this nauseating site of the former prime minister behaving as if- prime minister behaving as if the laws that— prime minister behaving as if the laws that apply _ prime minister behaving as if the laws that apply to _ prime minister behaving as if the laws that apply to the _ prime minister behaving as if the laws that apply to the rest - prime minister behaving as if the laws that apply to the rest of- prime minister behaving as if the laws that apply to the rest of us. prime minister behaving as if the i laws that apply to the rest of us do not apply— laws that apply to the rest of us do not apply ten~ _ laws that apply to the rest of us do not apply ten-— not apply ten. again, 'ust to be factual about this, _ not apply ten. again, 'ust to be factual about this, it h not apply ten. again, just to be factual about this, it is - not apply ten. again, just to be factual about this, it is actually| factual about this, it is actually the government's solicitors that are considering — the government's solicitors that are considering this, not the former prime _ considering this, not the former prime minister. there is an important point of law here, your question— important point of law here, your question about when you are running an inguiry— question about when you are running an inquiry but you get to see absolutely everything even if it's not relevant, or whether the normal way of— not relevant, or whether the normal way of things running happens, which is the _ way of things running happens, which is the solicitor to temasek. who determines _ is the solicitor to temasek. who determines what _ is the solicitor to temasek. iii"u;r> determines what relevant? is the solicitor to temasek. who - determines what relevant? normally it's done by solicitors _ determines what relevant? normally it's done by solicitors for _ it's done by solicitors for participants. i took part in the staffordshire public inquiry on behalf— staffordshire public inquiry on behalf of patients... staffordshire public inquiry on behalf of patients. . .— staffordshire public inquiry on behalf of patients... your magic. labour's mishandling _ behalf of patients... your magic. labour's mishandling of - behalf of patients... your magic. labour's mishandling of the - behalf of patients... your magic. | labour's mishandling of the nhs, behalf of patients... your magic. - labour's mishandling of the nhs, and there is— labour's mishandling of the nhs, and there is an _ labour's mishandling of the nhs, and there is an obligation for a solicitor— there is an obligation for a solicitor to act lawfully, and if they— solicitor to act lawfully, and if they are — solicitor to act lawfully, and if they are acts to find local

information sharing on that happens. kieran. _ information sharing on that happens. kieran. you _ information sharing on that happens. kieran, you have made the point there _ kieran, you have made the point there that — kieran, you have made the point there that it's _ kieran, you have made the point there that it's not— kieran, you have made the point there that it's not really- kieran, you have made the point there that it's not really about. kieran, you have made the point. there that it's not really about the former— there that it's not really about the former prime _ there that it's not really about the former prime minister, _ former prime minister, boris johnson, _ former prime minister, boris johnson, it's— former prime minister, boris johnson, it's about _ former prime minister, boris johnson, it's about solicitors| johnson, it's about solicitors asking — johnson, it's about solicitors asking but _ johnson, it's about solicitors asking but on _ johnson, it's about solicitors asking but on behalf- johnson, it's about solicitors asking but on behalf of - johnson, it's about solicitors asking but on behalf of the i asking but on behalf of the government— asking but on behalf of the government of— asking but on behalf of the government of the - asking but on behalf of the government of the cabineti asking but on behalf of the - government of the cabinet office. i have heard — government of the cabinet office. i have heard speculation— government of the cabinet office. i have heard speculation that - have heard speculation that that what _ have heard speculation that that what they— have heard speculation that that what they are _ have heard speculation that that what they are more _ have heard speculation that that what they are more worried - have heard speculation that that i what they are more worried about have heard speculation that that - what they are more worried about is not what _ what they are more worried about is not what comes _ what they are more worried about is not what comes out _ what they are more worried about is not what comes out from _ what they are more worried about is not what comes out from about - what they are more worried about is| not what comes out from about boris johnson, _ not what comes out from about boris johnson, llut— not what comes out from about boris johnson, but about _ not what comes out from about boris johnson, but about our— not what comes out from about boris johnson, but about our current - not what comes out from about borisi johnson, but about our current prime minister~ _ johnson, but about our current prime minister~ what— johnson, but about our current prime minister. what you're _ johnson, but about our current prime minister. what you're saying - johnson, but about our current prime minister. what you're saying there i minister. what you're saying there makes _ minister. what you're saying there makes it— minister. what you're saying there makes it sound _ minister. what you're saying there makes it sound like _ minister. what you're saying there makes it sound like perhaps- minister. what you're saying there makes it sound like perhaps that i makes it sound like perhaps that speculation— makes it sound like perhaps that speculation is— makes it sound like perhaps that speculation is true. _ makes it sound like perhaps that speculation is true. is _ makes it sound like perhaps that speculation is true. is i - makes it sound like perhaps that speculation is true.— makes it sound like perhaps that speculation is true. as i said, it's the normal _ speculation is true. as i said, it's the normal process _ speculation is true. as i said, it's the normal process for _ speculation is true. as i said, it's the normal process for any - the normal process for any government department or individual when they— government department or individual when they are taking part in an inguiry— when they are taking part in an inquiry like this to have a solicitor— inquiry like this to have a solicitor look through what is relevant _ solicitor look through what is relevant and hand it over. you said that. a relevant and hand it over. you said that- a couple _ relevant and hand it over. you said that. a couple of— relevant and hand it over. you said that. a couple of texts. _ relevant and hand it over. you said that. a couple of texts. boris - that. a couple of texts. boris johnson's team not complying with the investigation is ridiculous. maybe boris johnson the investigation is ridiculous. maybe borisjohnson should take a leak out of rebekah vardy�*s book and throw his phone into the sea. nick,

do we have a right to see these messages, or is this notjust a witch hunt, some people are saying? absolute nonsense, it's not a witchhunt, nor is she asking for absolutely everything. she's asking essentially two categories. firstly it whatsapp communications, between senior civil servants and advisers, and the second is borisjohnson, promised at the time, is communication, she's asking for absolutely everything at all, she is making a judgment as to what is relevant to her inquiry. of course the government should comply with what she is asking. i don't make a criticism of ministers for making

decisions and having discussions by whatsapp during the pandemic, because it was a very fast moving situation, but if you go back over previous governments, when they have had to deal with this kind of situation, you can see the documents, you can see the civil service advice, you can see the reasons ministers... dar; service advice, you can see the reasons ministers... day talking about lraq. _ reasons ministers... day talking about iraq, for _ reasons ministers... day talking about iraq, for example? - reasons ministers... day talking about iraq, for example? yeah, | reasons ministers... day talking - about iraq, for example? yeah, you can no about iraq, for example? yeah, you can go even — about iraq, for example? yeah, you can go even further— about iraq, for example? yeah, you can go even further beyond - about iraq, for example? yeah, you can go even further beyond that, i about iraq, for example? yeah, you can go even further beyond that, if| can go even further beyond that, if you want to. you can also see, as well, transcripts of telephone calls between ministers. in the modern day, on the 20 20s, what is new, is this government by whatsapp, if you like, because that's where technology has got to. baroness hallett, the independent chair, appointed by the government, by the way, is making the point that two types of documents are relevant to her inquiry, and the government should hand them over, firstly so families up and down the country,

thousands of families who lost people in the pandemic and get to the cheese, but secondly, because we need to learn lessons from this for health emergencies in the future. i think that's really misleading, they are rejecting things that solicitors think— are rejecting things that solicitors think have absolutely nothing to do with the _ think have absolutely nothing to do with the inquiry. it's not a novel or different _ with the inquiry. it's not a novel or different approach to things. can i come or different approach to things. can i come back — or different approach to things. i come back it or different approach to things. can i come back it known that? i have in front of me the ruling from heather hallett on the section 21 for applications, there is no suggestion that it applications, there is no suggestion thatitis applications, there is no suggestion that it is misleading. that's what i'm reading from and event that out. it's an 8—page document which she has made very clear why she thinks that those documents are relevant, why she should have them, and rather than hiding away from the truth the

government should be open and transparent about. xfol! government should be open and transparent about.— transparent about. you are misleading — transparent about. you are misleading them _ transparent about. you are misleading them about - transparent about. you are misleading them about it, | transparent about. you are i misleading them about it, it's transparent about. you are - misleading them about it, it's about whether— misleading them about it, it's about whether it's unredacted. i think it's unfortunate you don't understand that.- it's unfortunate you don't understand that. �* , . , understand that. i'm sorry, that is comlete understand that. i'm sorry, that is complete nonsense. _ understand that. i'm sorry, that is complete nonsense. the - understand that. i'm sorry, that is complete nonsense. the question | understand that. i'm sorry, that is i complete nonsense. the question of not understanding, i'm reading from a document in front of me that is actually from heather hallett. to suggest that is either misunderstood or mis—just plain wrong. suggest that is either misunderstood or mis-just plain wrong.— or mis-just plain wrong. you're a doctor, or mis-just plain wrong. you're a doctor. he _ or mis-just plain wrong. you're a doctor. he is _ or mis-just plain wrong. you're a doctor. he is a — or mis-just plain wrong. you're a doctor, he is a lawyer. _ or mis-just plain wrong. you're a doctor, he is a lawyer. and - or mis-just plain wrong. you're a doctor, he is a lawyer. and julius in hello, julie. what is your profession, carla, sorry, your basic...? i profession, carla, sorry, your basic---?_ profession, carla, sorry, your basic...? . . ., ., basic. . . ? i am an engineer. you got a doctor, basic. . . ? i am an engineer. you got a doctor. lawyer _ basic. . . ? i am an engineer. you got a doctor, lawyer and _ basic. . . ? i am an engineer. you got a doctor, lawyer and an _ basic. . . ? i am an engineer. you got a doctor, lawyer and an engineer. i a doctor, lawyer and an engineer. walked _ a doctor, lawyer and an engineer. walked into — a doctor, lawyer and an engineer. walked into a _ a doctor, lawyer and an engineer. walked into a bar! _ a doctor, lawyer and an engineer. walked into a bar! ask— a doctor, lawyer and an engineer. walked into a bar! ask away. - a doctor, lawyer and an engineer. walked into a bar! ask away. i’mul walked into a bar! ask away. i'm sliuhtl walked into a bar! ask away. i'm slightly livid _ walked into a bar! ask away. in slightly livid about the stupid gimmicks that are coming out from the tory party at the moment, about

stupid comments about cheese sandwiches from the likes of lee anderson. i think the public are sick of being patronised and treated like idiots. ~ ., sick of being patronised and treated like idiots. ~ . , ., . _ like idiots. what you mean by the de - u like idiots. what you mean by the deputy chairman _ like idiots. what you mean by the deputy chairman of _ like idiots. what you mean by the deputy chairman of the _ deputy chairman of the conservative party, the anderson? which particular comments are you referring to? i particular comments are you referring to?— particular comments are you referrin: to? ,, , _, , referring to? i think his comments are loner referring to? i think his comments are longer than _ referring to? i think his comments are longer than andrex _ referring to? i think his comments are longer than andrex toilet - referring to? i think his comments are longer than andrex toilet roll i are longer than andrex toilet roll about now. the frankly horrible. this is not a funny situation, crass remarks are not required or welcome. how is it hitting you, the cost of food, for example? you mentioned your own budget. it’s food, for example? you mentioned your own budget.— food, for example? you mentioned your own budget. it's not 'ust food, it's the your own budget. it's not 'ust food, as the whole * your own budget. it's not 'ust food, it's the whole cycle _ your own budget. it's not 'ust food, it's the whole cycle of _ your own budget. it's notjust food, it's the whole cycle of everything. i it's the whole cycle of everything. this tory government have broken the social contract. they are treating

us all like... i can't even say the word, because not allowed on the radio. we have absolutely had enough. i neverwant radio. we have absolutely had enough. i never want hear the word tory ever again, for quite frankly. they arejust a joke. tory ever again, for quite frankly. they are just a joke. they are not a government, they are a joke. haste government, they are a 'oke. have ou government, they are a 'oke. have you always — government, they are a 'oke. have you always voted h government, they are a 'oke. have you always voted for _ government, they are a joke. have you always voted for other - government, they are a joke. have you always voted for other parties? yes. if i ever vote sorry i expected to be marched up to the psychiatric unit, quite frankly.— unit, quite frankly. ciaran, you have a bit— unit, quite frankly. ciaran, you have a bit of— unit, quite frankly. ciaran, you have a bit of persuading - unit, quite frankly. ciaran, you have a bit of persuading to - unit, quite frankly. ciaran, you have a bit of persuading to do | unit, quite frankly. ciaran, you - have a bit of persuading to do here, i think. let's do the thought experiment. you are knocking on julie's... politicians always say, on the doorstep. you are campaigning, you knock onjulie's door and she said, if i ever vote tory, i has to be taken of the psychiatric unit. it is a strong phrase, what would you say to her? i

think your listeners will understand, it's quite a big ask for someone — understand, it's quite a big ask for someone who has never voted tory. i would _ someone who has never voted tory. i would point _ someone who has never voted tory. i would point out, for example, that we have _ would point out, for example, that we have given her £400 of her energy bill, we have given her £400 of her energy bill. we _ we have given her £400 of her energy bill, we have roughly halved her energy bill on top of that, through the energy price guarantee, defending on her circumstances she would _ defending on her circumstances she would have — defending on her circumstances she would have had cost of living payments... would have had cost of living payments- - -_ would have had cost of living payments- - -— would have had cost of living -a ments... , �* ., , payments... yes, i'm on prepayment meters, so _ payments... yes, i'm on prepayment meters, so that — payments... yes, i'm on prepayment meters, so that means _ payments... yes, i'm on prepayment meters, so that means they're - payments... yes, i'm on prepayment meters, so that means they're not i meters, so that means they're not doing an awful lot for me, and is the cost of living payments, we are not getting them, because of the way that they are doled out. if you do not have a qualifying period, which goes back a month, and you work part—time, term time only, you will not receive these cost of living payments. even if we did, most of them would be given back to first of all the government council tax. just on the prepayment meter issue, or the energy— on the prepayment meter issue, or the energy payments are issued with vouchers, _ the energy payments are issued with vouchers, and am really sorry to hear _ vouchers, and am really sorry to hear you — vouchers, and am really sorry to hear you have not had your

vouchers... | hear you have not had your vouchers. . .— hear you have not had your vouchers... �* ., �* vouchers... i didn't say i haven't had batches. _ vouchers... i didn't say i haven't had batches. so _ vouchers... i didn't say i haven't had batches. so you _ vouchers... i didn't say i haven't had batches. so you have - vouchers... i didn't say i haven't had batches. so you have had i had batches. so you have had vouchers? — had batches. so you have had vouchers? funny _ had batches. so you have had vouchers? funny enough, - had batches. so you have had vouchers? funny enough, we| had batches. so you have had - vouchers? funny enough, we don't use vouchers? funny enough, we don't use vouchers much — vouchers? funny enough, we don't use vouchers much these _ vouchers? funny enough, we don't use vouchers much these days. _ vouchers? funny enough, we don't use vouchers much these days. i _ vouchers? funny enough, we don't use vouchers much these days. i had - vouchers? funny enough, we don't use vouchers much these days. i had a - vouchers much these days. i had a prepayment meter, but i also had a smart meter. it's not all vouchers. that's the old system. not that you would know, but that is the old system. not many people do it in that way. $5 system. not many people do it in that wa . . , system. not many people do it in thatwa . r system. not many people do it in thatwa.n that way. as i said, if you're struggling — that way. as i said, if you're struggling to _ that way. as i said, if you're struggling to get _ that way. as i said, if you're struggling to get the - that way. as i said, if you're struggling to get the energyi that way. as i said, if you're - struggling to get the energy support that is— struggling to get the energy support that is there for every household, however — that is there for every household, however it — that is there for every household, however it is made up and however it receives _ however it is made up and however it receives its _ however it is made up and however it receives its energy, then you get in touch— receives its energy, then you get in touch with — receives its energy, then you get in touch with your mp got back i think you'll— touch with your mp got back i think you'll find — touch with your mp got back i think you'll find that it has stopped. i'm .lad you'll find that it has stopped. i'm glad to— you'll find that it has stopped. i'm glad to hear you did receive the money — glad to hear you did receive the money. you mention council tax theirm — money. you mention council tax their... , , ,, ., their... there is... its mission impossible — their... there is... its mission impossible on _ their... there is... its mission impossible on that _ their... there is... its mission impossible on that issue, - their... there is... its mission impossible on that issue, i - their... there is... its mission i impossible on that issue, i think. yeah, you can say that again. to

-ick u- yeah, you can say that again. to pick up on that point, the key priority— pick up on that point, the key priority for the prime minister, rishi _ priority for the prime minister, rishi sunak, is to have inflation, because — rishi sunak, is to have inflation, because that's vitally important. it's because that's vitally important. it's not — because that's vitally important. it's notjust inflation, is it? carla, g want to come here and the cost of living, which is hitting i think, yeah, ithinkjulie cost of living, which is hitting i think, yeah, i thinkjulie has outlined the problem perfectly. the conservatives have the— conservatives have the broken the social contract. _ conservatives have the broken the social contract. the _ conservatives have the broken the social contract. the government i social contract. the government is no longer— social contract. the government is no longer taking _ social contract. the government is no longer taking responsibility - social contract. the government is no longer taking responsibility for| no longer taking responsibility for making _ no longer taking responsibility for making sure — no longer taking responsibility for making sure that _ no longer taking responsibility for making sure that everyone - no longer taking responsibility for making sure that everyone in - no longer taking responsibility for making sure that everyone in the | making sure that everyone in the country _ making sure that everyone in the country can— making sure that everyone in the country can afford _ making sure that everyone in the country can afford to _ making sure that everyone in the country can afford to heat - making sure that everyone in the country can afford to heat theiri country can afford to heat their homes, — country can afford to heat their homes, pay— country can afford to heat their homes, pay their— country can afford to heat their homes, pay their bills, - homes, pay their bills, feed themselves— homes, pay their bills, feed themselves and _ homes, pay their bills, feed themselves and their- homes, pay their bills, feed . themselves and their children. they've — themselves and their children. they've done _ themselves and their children. they've done precisely- themselves and their children. they've done precisely the - themselves and their children. - they've done precisely the opposite deliberately. they've done precisely the opposite deliberately-— deliberately. yeah, and there's so much more _ deliberately. yeah, and there's so much more they _ deliberately. yeah, and there's so much more they could _ deliberately. yeah, and there's so much more they could be - deliberately. yeah, and there's so much more they could be doing. i much more they could be doing. deliberately? _ much more they could be doing. deliberately? that's _ deliberately? that's interesting. why do you think deliberately? that's what they've done, they dismantled the welfare state

deliberately, holistically. for the sake of fairness, _ deliberately, holistically. for the sake of fairness, i _ deliberately, holistically. for the sake of fairness, i need - deliberately, holistically. for the sake of fairness, i need to - deliberately, holistically. for the sake of fairness, i need to get i deliberately, holistically. for the sake of fairness, i need to get a| sake of fairness, i need to get a response from kieran on that. just for example. _ response from kieran on that. just for example. we — response from kieran on that. just for example, we increased benefits in line _ for example, we increased benefits in line with — for example, we increased benefits in line with inflation, pensions in line with — in line with inflation, pensions in line with inflation, extraordinary amounts — line with inflation, extraordinary amounts of gone to people, on top as the extraordinary amounts of money was spent _ the extraordinary amounts of money was spent supporting people during the pandemic, more than £400 million — the pandemic, more than £400 million. we can't always help everybody, in exactly the way they would _ everybody, in exactly the way they would like, and i would also say that actually feeding yourself, housing — that actually feeding yourself, housing a self is not, it's everybody's responsibility, we have a responsibility everybody in a caring — a responsibility everybody in a caring and sharing society. don�*t caring and sharing society. don't talk to me _ caring and sharing society. don't talk to me about _ caring and sharing society. don�*t talk to me about responsibility, i am an unpaid carrier as well as waspi women. i will have to to retire and it's...

waspi women. i will have to to retire and it's. . .— retire and it's. .. the initial decisions _ retire and it's. .. the initial decisions are _ retire and it's. .. the initial decisions are taken - retire and it's. .. the initial decisions are taken by - retire and it's... the initial- decisions are taken by labour, but as i decisions are taken by labour, but as i said. — decisions are taken by labour, but as i said. i— decisions are taken by labour, but as i said, i understand that not everybody— as i said, i understand that not everybody has helped in exactly they would _ everybody has helped in exactly they would like, and there are limits, we can't _ would like, and there are limits, we can't fix _ would like, and there are limits, we can't fix every situation for every single _ can't fix every situation for every single person. the can't fix every situation for every single person-— single person. the small people never went- _ when you raise the minimum wage, you don't raise it very much, but you raise it to iko for the sake of fairness and balance, i need to bring in nick, nick thomas—symonds. —— you raise it... . bring in nick, nick thomas-symonds. -- you raise it---_ -- you raise it... . the initial question _ -- you raise it... . the initial question was _ -- you raise it... . the initial question was about - -- you raise it... . the initial question was about louis - -- you raise it... . the initial- question was about louis anderson and those — question was about louis anderson and those comments. _ question was about louis anderson and those comments. i— question was about louis anderson and those comments. i have - question was about louis anderson and those comments. i have to- question was about louis anderson i and those comments. i have to say, rishi _ and those comments. i have to say, rishi sunak's — and those comments. i have to say, rishi sunak's cabinet _ and those comments. i have to say, rishi sunak's cabinet is _ and those comments. i have to say, rishi sunak's cabinet is a _ and those comments. i have to say, rishi sunak's cabinet is a bit - and those comments. i have to say, rishi sunak's cabinet is a bit of- and those comments. i have to say, rishi sunak's cabinet is a bit of a i rishi sunak's cabinet is a bit of a rogues' — rishi sunak's cabinet is a bit of a rogues' gallery, _ rishi sunak's cabinet is a bit of a rogues' gallery, people -

rishi sunak's cabinet is a bit of a rogues' gallery, people are i rishi sunak's cabinet is a bit of a i rogues' gallery, people are under investigation, _ rogues' gallery, people are under investigation, people _ rogues' gallery, people are under investigation, people committingl investigation, people committing security— investigation, people committing security breaches _ investigation, people committing security breaches and _ investigation, people committing security breaches and people i investigation, people committing security breaches and people out| investigation, people committing . security breaches and people out of their depth — security breaches and people out of their depth and _ security breaches and people out of their depth. and quite _ security breaches and people out of their depth. and quite why- security breaches and people out of their depth. and quite why he i security breaches and people out of| their depth. and quite why he chose lee their depth. and quite why he chose lee anderson — their depth. and quite why he chose lee anderson to _ their depth. and quite why he chose lee anderson to add _ their depth. and quite why he chose lee anderson to add to _ their depth. and quite why he chose lee anderson to add to this - their depth. and quite why he chose lee anderson to add to this toxic. lee anderson to add to this toxic make _ lee anderson to add to this toxic make is— lee anderson to add to this toxic make is anybody's _ lee anderson to add to this toxic make is anybody's guess. - lee anderson to add to this toxic make is anybody's guess. the i lee anderson to add to this toxic. make is anybody's guess. the prime minister's _ make is anybody's guess. the prime minister's greatest _ make is anybody's guess. the prime minister's greatest problem - make is anybody's guess. the prime minister's greatest problem is - make is anybody's guess. the prime minister's greatest problem is his. minister's greatest problem is his weakness. — minister's greatest problem is his weakness, standing _ minister's greatest problem is his weakness, standing up _ minister's greatest problem is his weakness, standing up to - minister's greatest problem is his weakness, standing up to his i weakness, standing up to his cabinet. _ weakness, standing up to his cabinet. his— weakness, standing up to his cabinet, his backbenchers i weakness, standing up to hisi cabinet, his backbenchers and weakness, standing up to his i cabinet, his backbenchers and the energy— cabinet, his backbenchers and the energy giants _ cabinet, his backbenchers and the energy giants who _ cabinet, his backbenchers and the energy giants who have _ cabinet, his backbenchers and the energy giants who have ripped i cabinet, his backbenchers and thei energy giants who have ripped the country _ energy giants who have ripped the country the — energy giants who have ripped the country. the truth _ energy giants who have ripped the country. the truth is, _ energy giants who have ripped the country. the truth is, he _ energy giants who have ripped the country. the truth is, he just i energy giants who have ripped the country. the truth is, he just isn't| country. the truth is, he just isn't strong _ country. the truth is, he just isn't strong enough _ country. the truth is, he just isn't strong enough to _ country. the truth is, he just isn't strong enough to deal— country. the truth is, he just isn't strong enough to deal with - country. the truth is, he just isn't strong enough to deal with lee i strong enough to deal with lee anderson _ strong enough to deal with lee anderson. more _ strong enough to deal with lee anderson. more broadly, - strong enough to deal with lee. anderson. more broadly, having strong enough to deal with lee - anderson. more broadly, having that criticism, _ anderson. more broadly, having that criticism, it— anderson. more broadly, having that criticism, it is— anderson. more broadly, having that criticism, it is a _ anderson. more broadly, having that criticism, it is a perfectly— criticism, it is a perfectly reasonable _ criticism, it is a perfectly reasonable time - criticism, it is a perfectly reasonable time to - criticism, it is a perfectly reasonable time to ask l criticism, it is a perfectly. reasonable time to ask me criticism, it is a perfectly- reasonable time to ask me about criticism, it is a perfectly— reasonable time to ask me about the cost of— reasonable time to ask me about the cost of living — reasonable time to ask me about the cost of living and _ reasonable time to ask me about the cost of living and what _ reasonable time to ask me about the cost of living and what would - reasonable time to ask me about the cost of living and what would labour| cost of living and what would labour do about _ cost of living and what would labour do about the — cost of living and what would labour do about the cost _ cost of living and what would labour do about the cost of— cost of living and what would labour do about the cost of food, _ cost of living and what would labour do about the cost of food, which - cost of living and what would labour do about the cost of food, which is i do about the cost of food, which is obviously— do about the cost of food, which is obviously running _ do about the cost of food, which is obviously running at _ do about the cost of food, which is obviously running at a _ do about the cost of food, which is obviously running at a far- do about the cost of food, which is obviously running at a far higher . obviously running at a far higher rate than— obviously running at a far higher rate than the _ obviously running at a far higher rate than the headline _ obviously running at a far higher rate than the headline rate - obviously running at a far higher rate than the headline rate of i rate than the headline rate of inflation _ rate than the headline rate of inflation a _ rate than the headline rate of inflation. a couple _ rate than the headline rate of inflation. a couple of- rate than the headline rate of inflation. a couple of things. i inflation. a couple of things. labour— inflation. a couple of things. labour would _ inflation. a couple of things. labour would be _ inflation. a couple of things. | labour would be introducing, inflation. a couple of things. . labour would be introducing, by increasing — labour would be introducing, by increasing the _ labour would be introducing, by increasing the digital— labour would be introducing, by increasing the digital service - labour would be introducing, byj increasing the digital service tax on the _ increasing the digital service tax on the online _ increasing the digital service tax on the online giants, _ increasing the digital service tax on the online giants, a - increasing the digital service tax on the online giants, a fund - increasing the digital service tax on the online giants, a fund of. increasing the digital service taxi on the online giants, a fund of £1 bittion— on the online giants, a fund of £1 billion to — on the online giants, a fund of £1 billion to support _ on the online giants, a fund of £1 billion to support energy - on the online giants, a fund of £1| billion to support energy intensive industries. — billion to support energy intensive industries. so— billion to support energy intensive industries, so we _ billion to support energy intensive industries, so we can _ billion to support energy intensive industries, so we can produce - billion to support energy intensive | industries, so we can produce food more _ industries, so we can produce food more cheapty~ _ industries, so we can produce food more cheaply. we _ industries, so we can produce food more cheaply. we should - industries, so we can produce food more cheaply. we should also - industries, so we can produce food| more cheaply. we should also have industries, so we can produce food - more cheaply. we should also have an agreement— more cheaply. we should also have an agreement with — more cheaply. we should also have an agreement with the _ more cheaply. we should also have an agreement with the eu _

more cheaply. we should also have an agreement with the eu to _ more cheaply. we should also have an agreement with the eu to reduce - agreement with the eu to reduce those _ agreement with the eu to reduce those barriers, _ agreement with the eu to reduce those barriers, to— agreement with the eu to reduce those barriers, to reduce - agreement with the eu to reduce those barriers, to reduce that - agreement with the eu to reduce i those barriers, to reduce that cost of importing — those barriers, to reduce that cost of importing food. _ those barriers, to reduce that cost of importing food. so— those barriers, to reduce that cost of importing food. so there - those barriers, to reduce that cost of importing food. so there are . those barriers, to reduce that costl of importing food. so there are two things— of importing food. so there are two things the — of importing food. so there are two things the government _ of importing food. so there are two things the government could - of importing food. so there are two things the government could be - of importing food. so there are two i things the government could be doing now. things the government could be doing now above _ things the government could be doing now above ait~ — things the government could be doing now. above all. what _ things the government could be doing now. above all.— now. above all. what is a veterinary agreement? — now. above all. what is a veterinary agreement? did _ now. above all. what is a veterinary agreement? did you _ now. above all. what is a veterinary agreement? did you say _ now. above all. what is a veterinary agreement? did you say the - agreement? did you say the veterinary agreement? that agreement? did you say the veterinary agreement? that is about havin: veterinary agreement? that is about having similar _ veterinary agreement? that is about having similar standards _ veterinary agreement? that is about having similar standards on - veterinary agreement? that is about having similar standards on things . having similar standards on things like animals — having similar standards on things like animals and _ having similar standards on things like animals and animal— having similar standards on things like animals and animal products, | like animals and animal products, which _ like animals and animal products, which allows — like animals and animal products, which allows you, _ like animals and animal products, which allows you, if _ like animals and animal products, which allows you, if you _ like animals and animal products, which allows you, if you accept. like animals and animal products, i which allows you, if you accept and recognise _ which allows you, if you accept and recognise each— which allows you, if you accept and recognise each other's _ which allows you, if you accept and recognise each other's standards . recognise each other's standards committee — recognise each other's standards committee vastly _ recognise each other's standards committee vastly reduce - recognise each other's standards committee vastly reduce the - recognise each other's standards - committee vastly reduce the number of checks— committee vastly reduce the number of checks vou — committee vastly reduce the number of checks you require. _ committee vastly reduce the number of checks you require. gt.— committee vastly reduce the number of checks you require.— of checks you require. a single market situation. _ of checks you require. a single market situation. it _ of checks you require. a single market situation. it is - of checks you require. a single market situation. it is not, - of checks you require. a single | market situation. it is not, new zealand has _ market situation. it is not, new zealand has a — market situation. it is not, new zealand has a veterinary - market situation. it is not, new - zealand has a veterinary agreement with the _ zealand has a veterinary agreement with the eu, — zealand has a veterinary agreement with the eu, for— zealand has a veterinary agreement with the eu, for example. - zealand has a veterinary agreement with the eu, for example. but - zealand has a veterinary agreement with the eu, for example. but in. with the eu, for example. but in terms _ with the eu, for example. but in terms of— with the eu, for example. but in terms of the _ with the eu, for example. but in terms of the other— with the eu, for example. but in terms of the other fundamentali terms of the other fundamental point, _ terms of the other fundamental point, you — terms of the other fundamental point. you have _ terms of the other fundamental point, you have got _ terms of the other fundamental point, you have got to- terms of the other fundamental point, you have got to producei point, you have got to produce botiticat — point, you have got to produce political and _ point, you have got to produce political and economic- point, you have got to producel political and economic stability, that is— political and economic stability, that is the — political and economic stability, that is the framework— political and economic stability, that is the framework of- political and economic stability, - that is the framework of everything. and over— that is the framework of everything. and over the — that is the framework of everything. and over the past _ that is the framework of everything. and over the past 12— that is the framework of everything. and over the past 12 to _ that is the framework of everything. and over the past 12 to 18 _ that is the framework of everything. and over the past 12 to 18 months. and over the past 12 to 18 months with first — and over the past 12 to 18 months with first of — and over the past 12 to 18 months with first of all _ and over the past 12 to 18 months with first of all partygate - and over the past 12 to 18 months with first of all partygate and - and over the past 12 to 18 months with first of all partygate and the| with first of all partygate and the fall of— with first of all partygate and the fall ofjohnson _ with first of all partygate and the fall ofjohnson and _ with first of all partygate and the fall ofjohnson and the _ with first of all partygate and the fall ofjohnson and the absolute i fall ofjohnson and the absolute disaster— fall ofjohnson and the absolute disaster of— fall ofjohnson and the absolute disaster of the _ fall ofjohnson and the absolute disaster of the liz— fall ofjohnson and the absolute disaster of the liz truss - disaster of the liz truss premiership— disaster of the liz truss premiership and- disaster of the liz truss premiership and the - disaster of the liz truss premiership and the liz| disaster of the liz truss - premiership and the liz truss and kwasi _ premiership and the liz truss and kwasi kwarteng _ premiership and the liz truss and kwasi kwarteng mini _ premiership and the liz truss and kwasi kwarteng mini budget, - premiership and the liz truss and | kwasi kwarteng mini budget, that

premiership and the liz truss and . kwasi kwarteng mini budget, that is where _ kwasi kwarteng mini budget, that is where they— kwasi kwarteng mini budget, that is where they have _ kwasi kwarteng mini budget, that is where they have comprehensively. where they have comprehensively faited _ where they have comprehensively failed the — where they have comprehensively failed the country _ where they have comprehensively failed the country over— where they have comprehensively failed the country over the - where they have comprehensively failed the country over the past. where they have comprehensively| failed the country over the past 18 months. _ failed the country over the past 18 months, despite _ failed the country over the past 18 months, despite the _ failed the country over the past 18 months, despite the fact - failed the country over the past 18 months, despite the fact they - failed the country over the past 18 months, despite the fact they had failed the country over the past 18 i months, despite the fact they had a majority— months, despite the fact they had a majority of— months, despite the fact they had a majority of 80. _ months, despite the fact they had a majority of 80, they— months, despite the fact they had a majority of 80, they have _ months, despite the fact they had a majority of 80, they have not - majority of 80, they have not produced _ majority of 80, they have not produced the _ majority of 80, they have not produced the stability- majority of 80, they have not produced the stability we - majority of 80, they have not . produced the stability we need. thank— produced the stability we need. thank you. _ produced the stability we need. thank you. we _ produced the stability we need. thank you, we will— produced the stability we need. thank you, we will let - produced the stability we need. thank you, we will let you - produced the stability we need. | thank you, we will let you come back, kieran. from the conservatives, we have kieran mullan, from labour, nick thomas—symonds, and carla denyer from the green party. good questions, keep them coming in. and we have the news for you. thank you, nicky. aslef�*s head says no progress has been made in agreeing on a new pay deal with rail companies. but mick whelan says he's confident there will "ultimately" be a resolution. train drivers with aslef are walking out today. the government says the latest pay offer was fair. labour says dale vince — the founder of ecotricity — is a "legitimate" source of donations. some conservatives have called

for the party to return the money, as mr vince has also donated tojust stop oil. labour says this doesn't affect its views on the group. authorities on the greek island of rhodes say they're investigating the death of a british man who was reportedly struck by lightning while paddleboarding. the incident is understood to have happened yesterday lunchtime. the foreign office says it's supporting the man's family. astronomers have found a 6,000—mile—long water plume, spurting out of a moon orbiting saturn. it's a place seen as potentially able to host life. pictures taken by the james webb space telescope have exposed new details. that was the news, now the sport. thank you. questions remain over the fitness of arsenal's beth mead and chelsea's millie bright, ahead of this afternoon's england world cup squad announcement. head coach sarina wiegman will name her 23—player squad at 2pm. six—time winners sevilla take onjose mourinho's roma in the europa league final in budapest tonight.

neither sevilla nor mourinho have ever lost a european final. britain's cameron norrie, men's top seed carlos alcaraz, and novak djokovic are all in second—round action at the french open today. in the women's draw, second seed aryna sabalenka also takes to the court. in golf, world number twojon rahm says he'll miss his spanish partner sergio garcia at this year's ryder cup. garcia is ineligible to play the tournament, after deferring to the saudi—funded liv series. and the rugby football union will decide today whether or not to grant london irish an extra week to complete a takeover. an emergency squad meeting — held last night — revealed the owners have offered to pay only 50% of salaries, which are due today. say "play bbc news" to most smart speakers and you'll get the latest headlines and in—depth reports on international, national and local stories that matter to you. for your news, when you want it, just say "play bbc news".

just on food because, we have our mps. i just on food because, we have our mp5. i will get back to you, colour, you didn't get a fair response, the others had plenty to say, we will get back to this issue again and again, of course —— carla. thought from you on the cost of food and then we will talk about other topics, carla denyer, from the green party. topics, carla denyer, from the green pa . . ~' , ., topics, carla denyer, from the green pa . . . party. thank you, i agree with some ofthe party. thank you, i agree with some of the points — party. thank you, i agree with some of the points nick _ party. thank you, i agree with some of the points nick made. _ party. thank you, i agree with some of the points nick made. yes, - party. thank you, i agree with some of the points nick made. yes, we i party. thank you, i agree with some j of the points nick made. yes, we do need to support companies in the food industry to go greener because that will reduce their reliance on oil and gas which reduces the cost of food. that is a medium—term thing. we need to start now and it will take a while to see the benefits. and i think we really owe julie and many other people in a

country like hurt solutions that will help them in the here and now. so what i would like to put to kieran, he says the government have been increasing benefits, well, why is it the joseph been increasing benefits, well, why is it thejoseph rowntree foundation came out with an analysis a couple of months ago that showed the amount you receive on universal credit is £35 less than the bare minimum that people need in order to pay their bills and to buy enough food to live on? so that is an independent assessment showing that universal credit is not providing the safety net that the government is supposed to provide. as the provider of last resort, they have broken a social contract, they are not providing the support to the people in the very most difficult situations who need that help. so as the green party, we have been calling since before that study came out for universal credit to be increased by £40 a week and equivalent for legacy benefits as well, to make sure that in the right

here and now, people can afford to pay their bills and give enough food on the table. pay their bills and give enough food on the table-— pay their bills and give enough food on the table. . ,, i. . ., ., on the table. thank you, allow me to move on. on the table. thank you, allow me to move on- i — on the table. thank you, allow me to move on. i know— on the table. thank you, allow me to move on. i know people _ on the table. thank you, allow me to move on. i know people want - on the table. thank you, allow me to move on. i know people want to - on the table. thank you, allow me to | move on. i know people want to come back, but quick ones coming in. kieran, why have you chucked out all the animal welfare legislation you promised in your 2019 manifesto? i promised in your 2019 manifesto? i think the government's position on this, i_ think the government's position on this, i am — think the government's position on this, i am a — think the government's position on this, i am a backbench mp, but the position— this, i am a backbench mp, but the position is— this, i am a backbench mp, but the position is the legislation was becoming a bit unwieldy and there were several different things in there _ were several different things in there and when you try to pass something through parliament that has tots _ something through parliament that has lots of different things on it, it can _ has lots of different things on it, it can be — has lots of different things on it, it can be bogged down by people butting _ it can be bogged down by people putting in amendments and changes in the way— putting in amendments and changes in the way the _ putting in amendments and changes in the way the government would not have supported. so they decided to put have supported. so they decided to but those _ have supported. so they decided to put those measures through for example — put those measures through for example on live exports as individual measures. ., , _ , individual measures. poppy smuggling and dog theft — individual measures. poppy smuggling and dog theft and _ individual measures. poppy smuggling and dog theft and primates _ individual measures. poppy smuggling and dog theft and primates as - individual measures. poppy smuggling and dog theft and primates as pets. i and dog theft and primates as pets. it has caused a lot of anger. a lot of people looked at the manifesto who care deeply about animals and

they thought, this is really enlightened and progressive stuff. sensibly, it is all being ditched. nick, you are a dog lover. i sensibly, it is all being ditched. nick, you are a dog lover. i don't think that's _ nick, you are a dog lover. i don't think that's true. _ nick, you are a dog lover. i don't think that's true. that _ nick, you are a dog lover. i don't think that's true. that is - nick, you are a dog lover. i don't think that's true. that is how - think that's true. that is how people — think that's true. that is how people perceive it. | think that's true. that is how people perceive it. i understand that. i people perceive it. i understand that- i am _ people perceive it. i understand that- i am a _ people perceive it. i understand that. i am a dog _ people perceive it. i understand that. i am a dog lover _ people perceive it. i understand that. i am a dog lover and - people perceive it. i understand that. i am a dog lover and i - people perceive it. i understand that. i am a dog lover and i wasj that. i am a dog lover and i was extremely— that. i am a dog lover and i was extremely disappointed - that. i am a dog lover and i was extremely disappointed by - that. i am a dog lover and i was extremely disappointed by thisi that. i am a dog lover and i was i extremely disappointed by this and the government— extremely disappointed by this and the government position _ extremely disappointed by this and the government position made - extremely disappointed by this and the government position made noi the government position made no sense _ the government position made no sense the — the government position made no sense. the government— the government position made no sense. the government has- the government position made no sense. the government has a - the government position made no - sense. the government has a majority of 80 _ sense. the government has a majority of 80 in _ sense. the government has a majority of 80 in parliament. _ sense. the government has a majority of 80 in parliament. when _ sense. the government has a majority of 80 in parliament. when the - of 80 in parliament. when the government— of 80 in parliament. when the government wants _ of 80 in parliament. when the government wants to - of 80 in parliament. when the government wants to ram - of 80 in parliament. when the - government wants to ram legislation through— government wants to ram legislation through parliament _ government wants to ram legislation through parliament very— government wants to ram legislation through parliament very quickly, - government wants to ram legislation through parliament very quickly, it . through parliament very quickly, it does and _ through parliament very quickly, it does and it— through parliament very quickly, it does and it has _ through parliament very quickly, it does and it has done _ through parliament very quickly, it does and it has done in— through parliament very quickly, it does and it has done in the - through parliament very quickly, it does and it has done in the course| does and it has done in the course of this— does and it has done in the course of this parliament. _ does and it has done in the course of this parliament. kieran's - does and it has done in the course of this parliament. kieran's pointi of this parliament. kieran's point about— of this parliament. kieran's point about the — of this parliament. kieran's point about the government _ of this parliament. kieran's point about the government saying - of this parliament. kieran's point about the government saying it i of this parliament. kieran's point. about the government saying it has become _ about the government saying it has become too — about the government saying it has become too unwieldy, _ about the government saying it has become too unwieldy, or— about the government saying it has become too unwieldy, or they- about the government saying it has become too unwieldy, or they had i about the government saying it has. become too unwieldy, or they had to do was _ become too unwieldy, or they had to do was use _ become too unwieldy, or they had to do was use their— become too unwieldy, or they had to do was use their majority _ become too unwieldy, or they had to do was use their majority to - do was use their majority to appropriately— do was use their majority to appropriately take - do was use their majority to appropriately take out - do was use their majority to appropriately take out the l do was use their majority to i appropriately take out the bids they didn't— appropriately take out the bids they didn't want— appropriately take out the bids they didn't want -- — appropriately take out the bids they didn't want —— all— appropriately take out the bids they didn't want —— all they _ appropriately take out the bids they didn't want —— all they had - appropriately take out the bids they didn't want —— all they had to- appropriately take out the bids they didn't want —— all they had to do. i didn't want —— all they had to do. it didn't want —— all they had to do. it made _ didn't want —— all they had to do. it made no — didn't want —— all they had to do. it made no sense _ didn't want —— all they had to do. it made no sense at— didn't want —— all they had to do. it made no sense at all— didn't want —— all they had to do. it made no sense at all and - didn't want —— all they had to do. it made no sense at all and you l didn't want —— all they had to do. . it made no sense at all and you can only draw— it made no sense at all and you can only draw the — it made no sense at all and you can only draw the conclusion _ it made no sense at all and you can only draw the conclusion this - it made no sense at all and you can| only draw the conclusion this wasn't realty— only draw the conclusion this wasn't really a _ only draw the conclusion this wasn't really a priority— only draw the conclusion this wasn't really a priority for _ only draw the conclusion this wasn't really a priority for the _ only draw the conclusion this wasn't really a priority for the government | really a priority for the government at this— really a priority for the government at this time — really a priority for the government at this time and _ really a priority for the government at this time and i— really a priority for the government at this time and i thought - really a priority for the government at this time and i thought it- really a priority for the government at this time and i thought it was . really a priority for the government at this time and i thought it was a i at this time and i thought it was a real shame — at this time and i thought it was a real shame. there _ at this time and i thought it was a real shame. there was _ at this time and i thought it was a real shame. there was so - at this time and i thought it was a real shame. there was so much l at this time and i thought it was a| real shame. there was so much in at this time and i thought it was a - real shame. there was so much in the build _ real shame. there was so much in the

build that— real shame. there was so much in the build that had — real shame. there was so much in the build that had very _ real shame. there was so much in the build that had very strong _ build that had very strong cross-party _ build that had very strong cross—party support. - build that had very strong cross-party support. build that had very strong cross-a su ort. ., . , , cross-party support. poppy smuggling and dog theft — cross-party support. poppy smuggling and dog theft amongst _ cross-party support. poppy smuggling and dog theft amongst it. _ cross-party support. poppy smuggling and dog theft amongst it. carla, - and dog theft amongst it. carla, quickly from you. i and dog theft amongst it. carla, quickly from you.— and dog theft amongst it. carla, quickly from you. i think kieran is makin: quickly from you. i think kieran is making excuses _ quickly from you. i think kieran is making excuses on _ quickly from you. i think kieran is making excuses on behalf - quickly from you. i think kieran is making excuses on behalf of - quickly from you. i think kieran is making excuses on behalf of the l making excuses on behalf of the government. these policies that have broad cross—party support. people want to see higher animal welfare standards in this country, we are a country of animal lovers, so it is disappointing to see these policies ditched when i am absolutely sure they would have passed if they had reached the floor. and i know there is speculation the reason they were ditched as the government wanted to avoid a debate about hunting, which is a shame because i think that is something we very much should debate alongside those other issues. truth? alongside those other issues. why would there _ alongside those other issues. why would there be _ alongside those other issues. why would there be a _ alongside those other issues. why would there be a debate about hunting is that not done and dusted? i assume they feared it would be brought in for amendments, maybe thatis brought in for amendments, maybe that is a question for kieran. i am that is a question for kieran. i am not -a that is a question for kieran. i am not party to _ that is a question for kieran. i am not party to the — that is a question for kieran. i am not party to the discussions that go on about— not party to the discussions that go on about legislation the house. have explained _

on about legislation the house. have explained the government's position. i explained the government's position. i also _ explained the government's position. i also strongly support those measures, they are very welcome and i measures, they are very welcome and i really— measures, they are very welcome and i really hope _ measures, they are very welcome and i really hope we do manage to get them _ i really hope we do manage to get them through in other ways throughout the rest of this parliament.— throughout the rest of this parliament. , . ., throughout the rest of this parliament. , . . , , parliament. this parliament. this is from clare in _ parliament. this parliament. this is from clare in south _ parliament. this parliament. this is from clare in south west _ parliament. this parliament. this is from clare in south west london, i from clare in south west london, good morning, claire. good morning, nicky. it is good to have you to ask a question and what would you like to say question i think you are a medic as well? i to say question i think you are a medic as well?— to say question i think you are a medic as well? . . . medic as well? i am a medic indeed, i am a paediatric— medic as well? i am a medic indeed, i am a paediatric respiratory - i am a paediatric respiratory physician— i am a paediatric respiratory physician in— i am a paediatric respiratory physician in london. - i am a paediatric respiratory physician in london. but - i am a paediatric respiratory physician in london. but i l i am a paediatric respiratory. physician in london. but i am i am a paediatric respiratory- physician in london. but i am also a parent— physician in london. but i am also a parent of— physician in london. but i am also a parent of a — physician in london. but i am also a parent of a teenager— physician in london. but i am also a parent of a teenager who _ physician in london. but i am also a parent of a teenager who has - physician in london. but i am also a parent of a teenager who has had i parent of a teenager who has had issues _ parent of a teenager who has had issues with— parent of a teenager who has had issues with vaping _ parent of a teenager who has had issues with vaping from - parent of a teenager who has had issues with vaping from quite - parent of a teenager who has had issues with vaping from quite a l issues with vaping from quite a young — issues with vaping from quite a young age _ issues with vaping from quite a young age and _ issues with vaping from quite a young age and i— issues with vaping from quite a young age and i am _ issues with vaping from quite a young age and i am very- issues with vaping from quite a young age and i am very happyj issues with vaping from quite a . young age and i am very happy to issues with vaping from quite a - young age and i am very happy to say he has _ young age and i am very happy to say he has now— young age and i am very happy to say he has now guit — young age and i am very happy to say he has now quit the _ young age and i am very happy to say he has now quit the habit. _ young age and i am very happy to say he has now quit the habit. he - young age and i am very happy to say he has now quit the habit. he is- young age and i am very happy to say he has now quit the habit. he is one. he has now quit the habit. he is one of many. _ he has now quit the habit. he is one of many. many— he has now quit the habit. he is one of many, many thousands _ he has now quit the habit. he is one of many, many thousands of- he has now quit the habit. he is one i of many, many thousands of teenagers in this— of many, many thousands of teenagers in this country— of many, many thousands of teenagers in this country that _ of many, many thousands of teenagers in this country that have _ of many, many thousands of teenagers in this country that have had _ of many, many thousands of teenagers in this country that have had very - in this country that have had very easy— in this country that have had very easy access — in this country that have had very easy access to _ in this country that have had very easy access to vape _ in this country that have had very easy access to vape devices, - easy access to vape devices, especially— easy access to vape devices, especially unregulated - easy access to vape devices, especially unregulated i'm . easy access to vape devices, i especially unregulated i'm sure easy access to vape devices, - especially unregulated i'm sure and bought— especially unregulated i'm sure and bought illegally— especially unregulated i'm sure and bought illegally over— especially unregulated i'm sure and bought illegally over the _ especially unregulated i'm sure and bought illegally over the counter. bought illegally over the counter and countless _ bought illegally over the counter and countless shops _ bought illegally over the counter and countless shops across - bought illegally over the counter and countless shops across the i and countless shops across the countrv — and countless shops across the countrv i— and countless shops across the countrv i am _ and countless shops across the country. i am interested - and countless shops across the country. iam interested rishi i and countless shops across the - country. iam interested rishi sunak is taking _ country. iam interested rishi sunak is taking an —

country. iam interested rishi sunak is taking an interest— country. iam interested rishi sunak is taking an interest in— country. iam interested rishi sunak is taking an interest in this - country. iam interested rishi sunak is taking an interest in this and - country. iam interested rishi sunak is taking an interest in this and i - is taking an interest in this and i am is taking an interest in this and i aqust— is taking an interest in this and i am just interested _ is taking an interest in this and i am just interested to— is taking an interest in this and i am just interested to hear- is taking an interest in this and i am just interested to hear how. is taking an interest in this and i i am just interested to hear how the politicians — am just interested to hear how the politicians on — am just interested to hear how the politicians on your— am just interested to hear how the politicians on your programme - am just interested to hear how the i politicians on your programme today feel about _ politicians on your programme today feel about this— politicians on your programme today feel about this and _ politicians on your programme today feel about this and what _ politicians on your programme today feel about this and what measures l feel about this and what measures should _ feel about this and what measures should be — feel about this and what measures should be taken _ feel about this and what measures should be taken by— feel about this and what measures should be taken by governments l feel about this and what measuresi should be taken by governments to really _ should be taken by governments to really controlled _ should be taken by governments to really controlled this _ should be taken by governments to really controlled this really - should be taken by governments to really controlled this really very- really controlled this really very dangerous, _ really controlled this really very dangerous, unregulated - really controlled this really veryi dangerous, unregulated practice really controlled this really very. dangerous, unregulated practice in the uk? _ dangerous, unregulated practice in the uk? -- — dangerous, unregulated practice in the uk? ., ., , ., dangerous, unregulated practice in theuk? ., ., ., , the uk? -- to really control. it is such an issue _ the uk? -- to really control. it is such an issue of— the uk? -- to really control. it is such an issue of great _ the uk? -- to really control. it is such an issue of great concern i the uk? -- to really control. it is such an issue of great concern to j such an issue of great concern to people and we did a phone in on it just the other day and it was rammed. as a medic yourself, kieran, it is the balance between clamping down and individual freedom, it is the balance between clamping down and individualfreedom, isn't it? down and individual freedom, isn't it? ., , ., . it? not 'ust that, as a medic, we cannot it? notjust that, as a medic, we cannot underestimate _ it? notjust that, as a medic, we cannot underestimate the - it? notjust that, as a medic, we cannot underestimate the huge i it? notjust that, as a medic, we - cannot underestimate the huge health benefit _ cannot underestimate the huge health benefit people who switch from smoking — benefit people who switch from smoking to vaping receive so it is that reallv — smoking to vaping receive so it is that really. i'm sure we have all .ot that really. i'm sure we have all got friends _ that really. i'm sure we have all got friends and family members who could not— got friends and family members who could not manage to get off smoking. the lesser— could not manage to get off smoking. the lesser of two evils, if you like. ., . , . ., like. some of them have switch now to va - in . like. some of them have switch now to vaping- lbut _ like. some of them have switch now to vaping. but when _ like. some of them have switch now to vaping. but when it _ like. some of them have switch now to vaping. but when it comes - like. some of them have switch now to vaping. but when it comes to - to vaping. but when it comes to children. — to vaping. but when it comes to children. i— to vaping. but when it comes to children, iam to vaping. but when it comes to children, i am concerned by some of

the studies — children, i am concerned by some of the studies i — children, i am concerned by some of the studies i have seen recently, particularly about those illicit vapes — particularly about those illicit vapes and some of the substances. whilst _ vapes and some of the substances. whilst nicotine is not a sample as the things— whilst nicotine is not a sample as the things that go into a cigarette, it still— the things that go into a cigarette, it still has— the things that go into a cigarette, it still has health effects particularly on children, so i really— particularly on children, so i really welcome the government decision— really welcome the government decision today, particularly this week — decision today, particularly this week. they have clamped down on the freebies _ week. they have clamped down on the freebies. you could not sell vapes to children. — freebies. you could not sell vapes to children, but you could give them away _ to children, but you could give them away and _ to children, but you could give them away and that was an unfortunate loophole — away and that was an unfortunate loophole they have been able to close _ loophole they have been able to close. and those illicit vapes in particular— close. and those illicit vapes in particular are a real worry and they have _ particular are a real worry and they have given — particular are a real worry and they have given £3 million to a specific team _ have given £3 million to a specific team to _ have given £3 million to a specific team to try— have given £3 million to a specific team to try and tackle that illicit trade~ _ team to try and tackle that illicit trade. they are also going to add it to the _ trade. they are also going to add it to the curriculum so that young people — to the curriculum so that young people learn in school in the same way they— people learn in school in the same way they learn about the harms of smoking _ way they learn about the harms of smoking and alcohol, they could also learn about— smoking and alcohol, they could also learn about the harms of vaping. it is almost _ learn about the harms of vaping. it is almost coming out of nowhere, this is— is almost coming out of nowhere, this is a _ is almost coming out of nowhere, this is a very— is almost coming out of nowhere, this is a very positive development for smokers that has suddenly become a new— for smokers that has suddenly become a new health issue for children. a a new health issue for children. gateway, who would have thought, a gateway, who would have thought, a gateway in rather than a gateway out! claire, what do you think? i

have got a 19—year—old. i had to teenagers. two of them. one of them doesn't smoke, but vapes, this is so common, isn't it?— common, isn't it? yes, exactly riuht. common, isn't it? yes, exactly right- there — common, isn't it? yes, exactly right. there are _ common, isn't it? yes, exactly right. there are two _ common, isn't it? yes, exactly right. there are two separate l common, isn't it? yes, exactly - right. there are two separate issues here _ right. there are two separate issues here i_ right. there are two separate issues here ithink— right. there are two separate issues here. i think the _ right. there are two separate issues here. i think the safe _ right. there are two separate issues here. i think the safe use _ right. there are two separate issues here. i think the safe use of- right. there are two separate issues here. i think the safe use of vapingi here. i think the safe use of vaping to help _ here. i think the safe use of vaping to help smokers _ here. i think the safe use of vaping to help smokers quit, _ here. i think the safe use of vaping to help smokers quit, absolutely. to help smokers quit, absolutely brilliant — to help smokers quit, absolutely brilliant 0r— to help smokers quit, absolutely brilliant. or at _ to help smokers quit, absolutely brilliant. or at least, _ to help smokers quit, absolutely brilliant. orat least, step—down| to help smokers quit, absolutely. brilliant. or at least, step—down in terms _ brilliant. or at least, step—down in terms of— brilliant. or at least, step—down in terms of the — brilliant. or at least, step—down in terms of the harm _ brilliant. or at least, step—down in terms of the harm that _ brilliant. or at least, step—down in terms of the harm that you - brilliant. or at least, step—down in terms of the harm that you gain i brilliant. or at least, step—down in . terms of the harm that you gain from cigarettes— terms of the harm that you gain from cigarettes compared _ terms of the harm that you gain from cigarettes compared to _ terms of the harm that you gain from cigarettes compared to vaping. - terms of the harm that you gain from cigarettes compared to vaping. thati cigarettes compared to vaping. that is a very— cigarettes compared to vaping. that is a very different _ cigarettes compared to vaping. that is a very different issue _ cigarettes compared to vaping. that is a very different issue to _ cigarettes compared to vaping. that is a very different issue to what - cigarettes compared to vaping. that is a very different issue to what is l is a very different issue to what is happening — is a very different issue to what is happening with _ is a very different issue to what is happening with our— is a very different issue to what is happening with our teenagers - is a very different issue to what is| happening with our teenagers who is a very different issue to what is - happening with our teenagers who are as young _ happening with our teenagers who are as young as— happening with our teenagers who are as young as it, — happening with our teenagers who are as young as it, 12. _ happening with our teenagers who are as young as 11, 12, 13, _ happening with our teenagers who are as young as 11, 12, 13, we _ happening with our teenagers who are as young as 11, 12, 13, we see - happening with our teenagers who are as young as 11, 12, 13, we see that- as young as 11, 12, 13, we see that in the — as young as 11, 12, 13, we see that in the press. — as young as 11, 12, 13, we see that in the press. they— as young as 11, 12, 13, we see that in the press, they are _ as young as 11, 12, 13, we see that in the press, they are accessing . in the press, they are accessing either— in the press, they are accessing either free _ in the press, they are accessing either free devices— in the press, they are accessing either free devices given - in the press, they are accessing either free devices given to - in the press, they are accessing . either free devices given to them. there _ either free devices given to them. there is— either free devices given to them. there is a — either free devices given to them. there is a supposedly _ either free devices given to them. there is a supposedly nicotine - either free devices given to them. | there is a supposedly nicotine free device~ _ there is a supposedly nicotine free device~ 0r— there is a supposedly nicotine free device. or easily— there is a supposedly nicotine free device. or easily buying _ there is a supposedly nicotine free device. or easily buying them - there is a supposedly nicotine free device. or easily buying them over the counter— device. or easily buying them over the counter online _ device. or easily buying them over the counter online and _ device. or easily buying them over the counter online and there - device. or easily buying them over the counter online and there is - device. or easily buying them over the counter online and there is a l the counter online and there is a bil the counter online and there is a big social— the counter online and there is a big social media _ the counter online and there is a big social media culture - the counter online and there is a big social media culture around i the counter online and there is a | big social media culture around it and we _ big social media culture around it and we see — big social media culture around it and we see influences— big social media culture around it and we see influences extolling l big social media culture around it. and we see influences extolling the virtues _ and we see influences extolling the virtues and — and we see influences extolling the virtues and the _ and we see influences extolling the virtues and the coolness _ and we see influences extolling the virtues and the coolness of- and we see influences extolling the virtues and the coolness of vaping.| virtues and the coolness of vaping. but that— virtues and the coolness of vaping. but that is— virtues and the coolness of vaping. but that is a — virtues and the coolness of vaping. but that is a really— virtues and the coolness of vaping. but that is a really different - but that is a really different issues — but that is a really different issues -- _ but that is a really different issues —— issue _ but that is a really different issues —— issue to - but that is a really different

issues —— issue to the - but that is a really different issues —— issue to the one i but that is a really different - issues —— issue to the one about getting — issues —— issue to the one about getting adults _ issues —— issue to the one about getting adults who _ issues —— issue to the one about getting adults who are _ issues —— issue to the one aboutl getting adults who are long—term smokers — getting adults who are long—term smokers off— getting adults who are long—term smokers off using _ getting adults who are long—term smokers off using e—cigarettes. i| smokers off using e—cigarettes. i think— smokers off using e—cigarettes. i think what— smokers off using e—cigarettes. i think what we _ smokers off using e—cigarettes. i think what we need _ smokers off using e—cigarettes. i think what we need to _ smokers off using e—cigarettes. i think what we need to address i smokers off using e—cigarettes. i think what we need to address is| think what we need to address is this very— think what we need to address is this very harmful— think what we need to address is this very harmful trend - think what we need to address is this very harmful trend that i think what we need to address is this very harmful trend that hasi this very harmful trend that has come _ this very harmful trend that has come over— this very harmful trend that has come over the _ this very harmful trend that has come over the long _ this very harmful trend that has come over the long —— - this very harmful trend that has come over the long —— less- this very harmful trend that has. come over the long —— less three this very harmful trend that has i come over the long —— less three to five years— come over the long —— less three to five years for— come over the long —— less three to five years for young _ come over the long —— less three to five years for young children - five years for young children getting _ five years for young children getting very. _ five years for young children getting very, very— five years for young children getting very, very quickly. five years for young children - getting very, very quickly addicted. the reason — getting very, very quickly addicted. the reason is, _ getting very, very quickly addicted. the reason is, you _ getting very, very quickly addicted. the reason is, you can _ getting very, very quickly addicted. the reason is, you can be - getting very, very quickly addicted. the reason is, you can be covert. l the reason is, you can be covert. you _ the reason is, you can be covert. you can— the reason is, you can be covert. you can pick— the reason is, you can be covert. you can pick vape _ the reason is, you can be covert. you can pick vape devices - the reason is, you can be covert. you can pick vape devices that i the reason is, you can be covert. i you can pick vape devices that don't smell, _ you can pick vape devices that don't smell, thev— you can pick vape devices that don't smell, they are _ you can pick vape devices that don't smell, they are small— you can pick vape devices that don't smell, they are small and _ you can pick vape devices that don't smell, they are small and they i you can pick vape devices that don't smell, they are small and they are i smell, they are small and they are jewel-like — smell, they are small and they are jewel—like devices. _ smell, they are small and they are jewel—like devices. find— smell, they are small and they are jewel-like devices.— jewel-like devices. and have a sneaky inhale. _ jewel-like devices. and have a sneaky inhale. continuously. l jewel-like devices. and have a i sneaky inhale. continuously. and some of these _ sneaky inhale. continuously. and some of these vape _ sneaky inhale. continuously. and some of these vape devices - sneaky inhale. continuously. and some of these vape devices have| sneaky inhale. continuously. and - some of these vape devices have ten times_ some of these vape devices have ten times the _ some of these vape devices have ten times the amount _ some of these vape devices have ten times the amount of _ some of these vape devices have ten times the amount of nicotine - some of these vape devices have ten times the amount of nicotine as - some of these vape devices have ten times the amount of nicotine as a . times the amount of nicotine as a single _ times the amount of nicotine as a single cigarette _ times the amount of nicotine as a single cigarette would. _ times the amount of nicotine as a single cigarette would. so - times the amount of nicotine as a single cigarette would. so they. times the amount of nicotine as a. single cigarette would. so they are very quickly— single cigarette would. so they are very quickly addicted. _ single cigarette would. so they are very quickly addicted. nicotine - single cigarette would. so they are very quickly addicted. nicotine is l very quickly addicted. nicotine is not harmony— very quickly addicted. nicotine is not harmony -- _ very quickly addicted. nicotine is not harmony —— harmful- very quickly addicted. nicotine is i not harmony —— harmful substance, not harmony —— harmful substance, not at _ not harmony —— harmful substance, not at any _ not harmony —— harmful substance, not at any age. _ not harmony —— harmful substance, not at any age, particularly - not harmony —— harmful substance, not at any age, particularly in - not at any age, particularly in young — not at any age, particularly in young children, _ not at any age, particularly in young children, it— not at any age, particularly in young children, it has- young children, it has neurodevelopmentall young children, it has- neurodevelopmental issues young children, it has— neurodevelopmental issues around education — neurodevelopmental issues around education -- — neurodevelopmental issues around education -- is _ neurodevelopmental issues around education -- is a _ neurodevelopmental issues around education —— is a harmful- neurodevelopmental issues around i education —— is a harmful substance. it is education —— is a harmful substance. it is a _ education —— is a harmful substance. it is a stimulant. _ education —— is a harmful substance. it is a stimulant. 0h— education —— is a harmful substance. it is a stimulant. 0h stimulant, - it is a stimulant. 0h stimulant, there _ it is a stimulant. 0h stimulant, there is— it is a stimulant. 0h stimulant, there is a — it is a stimulant. 0h stimulant, there is a down _ it is a stimulant. 0h stimulant, there is a down and _ it is a stimulant. 0h stimulant, there is a down and their- there is a down and their concentration— there is a down and their concentration in- there is a down and their concentration in school. there is a down and their. concentration in school and

there is a down and their- concentration in school and ability to steep— concentration in school and ability to steep property— concentration in school and ability to sleep properly and _ concentration in school and ability to sleep properly and focus - concentration in school and ability to sleep properly and focus in - to sleep properly and focus in school, — to sleep properly and focus in school, it _ to sleep properly and focus in school, it has— to sleep properly and focus in school, it has wide—ranging . to sleep properly and focus in - school, it has wide—ranging effects. -- post— school, it has wide—ranging effects. —— post stimulant. _ school, it has wide—ranging effects. —— post stimulant. it _ school, it has wide—ranging effects. —— post stimulant. it is _ school, it has wide—ranging effects. —— post stimulant. it is separate - school, it has wide—ranging effects. —— post stimulant. it is separate to| —— post stimulant. it is separate to the use _ —— post stimulant. it is separate to the use of— —— post stimulant. it is separate to the use of e—cigarettes _ —— post stimulant. it is separate to the use of e—cigarettes for - —— post stimulant. it is separate to the use of e—cigarettes for peoplei the use of e—cigarettes for people trying _ the use of e—cigarettes for people trying to— the use of e—cigarettes for people trying to get — the use of e—cigarettes for people trying to get off _ the use of e—cigarettes for people trying to get off long—term - the use of e—cigarettes for people i trying to get off long—term smoking. nick, _ trying to get off long—term smoking. nick, you _ trying to get off long—term smoking. nick, you are — trying to get off long—term smoking. nick, you are a — trying to get off long—term smoking. nick, you are a former— trying to get off long—term smoking. nick, you are a former smoker? - trying to get off long—term smoking. nick, you are a former smoker? hmi trying to get off long—term smoking. i nick, you are a former smoker? hm! nick, you are a former smoker? no, i am not. nick, you are a former smoker? no, i am not- it _ nick, you are a former smoker? no, i am not- it was— nick, you are a former smoker? no, i am not- it was a _ nick, you are a former smoker? no, i am not. it was a complete _ nick, you are a former smoker? no, i am not. it was a complete guess! - nick, you are a former smoker? no, i am not. it was a complete guess! i i am not. it was a complete guess! i was auoin am not. it was a complete guess! i was going to — am not. it was a complete guess! i was going to see — am not. it was a complete guess! i was going to see what _ am not. it was a complete guess! i was going to see what you - am not. it was a complete guess! i was going to see what you said. i am not. it was a complete guess! i i was going to see what you said. your mind was worried, did i have a smoke? so many people are. statistically, so many people are, i am. are you an ex—smoker, anyone, or am. are you an ex—smoker, anyone, or a current smoker? carla, or are you not a smoker? no, i am not a smoker. kieran, ex—smoker, current smoker? no, i_ kieran, ex—smoker, current smoker? no, i have— kieran, ex—smoker, current smoker? no, i have never smoked. look at you three, i am the only one that had the dreaded weed. both of them, frankly. what do we do about the vapes, nick? frankly. what do we do about the vapes. nick?—

vapes, nick? firstly, i agree with claire's separation _ vapes, nick? firstly, i agree with claire's separation of _ vapes, nick? firstly, i agree with claire's separation of this - vapes, nick? firstly, i agree with claire's separation of this into - vapes, nick? firstly, i agree with| claire's separation of this into the two issues — claire's separation of this into the two issues. vaping is useful stop smoking — two issues. vaping is useful stop smoking tool for many adults, but i do think— smoking tool for many adults, but i do think there is this particular issue _ do think there is this particular issue with _ do think there is this particular issue with children. we previously proposed — issue with children. we previously proposed banning vapes branded for children _ proposed banning vapes branded for children i_ proposed banning vapes branded for children. i think the conservatives were _ children. i think the conservatives were opposed to that at that time. listening _ were opposed to that at that time. listening to what kieran has been saying. _ listening to what kieran has been saying. it — listening to what kieran has been saying, it seems the conservatives may he _ saying, it seems the conservatives may be looking into this in a more detailed _ may be looking into this in a more detailed way. but i think, i do agree — detailed way. but i think, i do agree with all the points claire has been _ agree with all the points claire has been making around children. i do think— been making around children. i do think it's _ been making around children. i do think it's important the government focuses _ think it's important the government focuses on — think it's important the government focuses on this and take some action — focuses on this and take some action. . . ~ focuses on this and take some action. . . . ., , , action. carla. well, obviously, closinu action. carla. well, obviously, closing the — action. carla. well, obviously, closing the loophole _ action. carla. well, obviously, closing the loophole that - action. carla. well, obviously,| closing the loophole that allows them to be given away to children needs to happen. but honestly, to hear rishi sunak talk about this, you would think this is a new problem and it had not been growing and they had not been presiding over it in the government for the past 13 years. you only have to walk down the high street or a corner shop to find these disposable vapes being

sold. and i suspect the prime minister doesn't nip into his local corner shop very often, so maybe that's why he is new to the subject. i completely agree with claire that of course, vapes as a tool to help people reduce and quit smoking is really important. but there is a lack of regulation around the disposable vapes and how easily available they are and i don't think what the government has announced has gone far enough on that. they are making the responsibility —— it the responsibility of local council trading officers to enforce the wrong kind of vapes being sold on the wrong kind of places. but trading standards officers have like the rest of local councils, been cut to the bone over the last 13 years of conservative government. the charter trading standards institute says resources have halved over the last decade. so unfortunately, it is yet another example of an out of touch national government telling i

think deliberately and under resourced local government to clear up resourced local government to clear up a mess it should have sorted at a national level years ago. is up a mess it should have sorted at a national level years ago.— national level years ago. is there a doctor in the _ national level years ago. is there a doctor in the house? _ national level years ago. is there a doctor in the house? yes, - national level years ago. is there a doctor in the house? yes, there i national level years ago. is there a | doctor in the house? yes, there is, come back, doctor. i doctor in the house? yes, there is, come back, doctor.— come back, doctor. i would remind --eole come back, doctor. i would remind peeple when _ come back, doctor. i would remind peeple when the — come back, doctor. i would remind people when the conservative - people when the conservative government _ people when the conservative government came _ people when the conservative government came in, - people when the conservative government came in, £1- people when the conservative government came in, £1 in. people when the conservative i government came in, £1 in every people when the conservative - government came in, £1 in every £4 treing_ government came in, £1 in every £4 treing spent— government came in, £1 in every £4 treing spent was— government came in, £1 in every £4 being spent was borrowed. - government came in, £1 in every £4 being spent was borrowed. people. being spent was borrowed. people remember— being spent was borrowed. people remember the _ being spent was borrowed. people remember the famous _ being spent was borrowed. people remember the famous note - being spent was borrowed. people remember the famous note about| being spent was borrowed. people - remember the famous note about there bein- remember the famous note about there treing no— remember the famous note about there treing no money— remember the famous note about there treing no money left— remember the famous note about there being no money left so— remember the famous note about there being no money left so difficult - being no money left so difficult decisions — being no money left so difficult decisions had _ being no money left so difficult decisions had to _ being no money left so difficult decisions had to be _ being no money left so difficult decisions had to be made - being no money left so difficultj decisions had to be made when being no money left so difficult . decisions had to be made when it came _ decisions had to be made when it came to — decisions had to be made when it came to iocat— decisions had to be made when it came to local government - decisions had to be made when it . came to local government spending and other— came to local government spending and other areas— came to local government spending and other areas of— came to local government spending and other areas of spending, - came to local government spending | and other areas of spending, people seem _ and other areas of spending, people seem to _ and other areas of spending, people seem to forget — and other areas of spending, people seem to forget that. _ and other areas of spending, people seem to forget that. i _ and other areas of spending, people seem to forget that. ithink- and other areas of spending, people seem to forget that. i think it - and other areas of spending, people seem to forget that. i think it is - seem to forget that. i think it is the ordinary— seem to forget that. i think it is the ordinary way— seem to forget that. i think it is the ordinary way trading - seem to forget that. i think it is i the ordinary way trading standards operates — the ordinary way trading standards operates i— the ordinary way trading standards operates. i don't _ the ordinary way trading standards operates. idon't think— the ordinary way trading standards operates. i don't think as - the ordinary way trading standards operates. i don't think as the - the ordinary way trading standards | operates. i don't think as the green operates. idon't think as the green party— operates. idon't think as the green party is— operates. i don't think as the green party is suggesting. _ operates. i don't think as the green party is suggesting, we _ operates. i don't think as the green party is suggesting, we should - party is suggesting, we should invent— party is suggesting, we should invent a — party is suggesting, we should invent a new— party is suggesting, we should invent a new way _ party is suggesting, we should invent a new way of _ party is suggesting, we should invent a new way of tackling i party is suggesting, we should - invent a new way of tackling trading standards _ invent a new way of tackling trading standards issues _ invent a new way of tackling trading standards issues for— invent a new way of tackling trading standards issues for the _ invent a new way of tackling trading standards issues for the purposes . invent a new way of tackling trading | standards issues for the purposes of tackling _ standards issues for the purposes of tackling vapes, — standards issues for the purposes of tackling vapes, i_ standards issues for the purposes of tackling vapes, i am _ standards issues for the purposes of tackling vapes, i am not— standards issues for the purposes of tackling vapes, i am not sure - standards issues for the purposes of tackling vapes, i am not sure how. tackling vapes, i am not sure how they would — tackling vapes, i am not sure how they would cost _ tackling vapes, i am not sure how they would cost that _ tackling vapes, i am not sure how they would cost that or— tackling vapes, i am not sure how they would cost that or how - tackling vapes, i am not sure how they would cost that or how that i they would cost that or how that would _ they would cost that or how that would work _ they would cost that or how that would work and _ they would cost that or how that would work and he _ they would cost that or how that would work and he would - they would cost that or how that would work and he would be - would work and he would be responsible _ would work and he would be responsible for— would work and he would be responsible for that. - would work and he would be responsible for that. this i would work and he would be responsible for that. this is| would work and he would be i responsible for that. this is the ordinary— responsible for that. this is the ordinary way— responsible for that. this is the ordinary way we _ responsible for that. this is the ordinary way we tackle - responsible for that. this is the ordinary way we tackle trading i ordinary way we tackle trading standards _ ordinary way we tackle trading standards issues— ordinary way we tackle trading standards issues in— ordinary way we tackle trading standards issues in this - ordinary way we tackle trading i standards issues in this country. ordinary way we tackle trading. standards issues in this country. i think— standards issues in this country. i think the — standards issues in this country. i think the vaping _ standards issues in this country. i think the vaping issue _ standards issues in this country. i think the vaping issue is- standards issues in this country. ii think the vaping issue is important and i'm _ think the vaping issue is important and i'm glad — think the vaping issue is important and i'm glad we _ think the vaping issue is important and i'm glad we are _ think the vaping issue is important and i'm glad we are taking - and i'm glad we are taking additional— and i'm glad we are taking additional steps, - and i'm glad we are taking additional steps, but - and i'm glad we are taking additional steps, but i - and i'm glad we are taking. additional steps, but i don't and i'm glad we are taking - additional steps, but i don't think it warrants — additional steps, but i don't think it warrants an _ additional steps, but i don't think it warrants an overhaul _ additional steps, but i don't think it warrants an overhaul of - additional steps, but i don't think it warrants an overhaul of the - it warrants an overhaul of the entire — it warrants an overhaul of the entire system _ it warrants an overhaul of the entire system of— it warrants an overhaul of the entire system of monitoring i it warrants an overhaul of the -

entire system of monitoring trading standards— entire system of monitoring trading standards for— entire system of monitoring trading standards for the _ entire system of monitoring trading standards for the purpose _ entire system of monitoring trading standards for the purpose of- standards for the purpose of tackling _ standards for the purpose of tackling that _ standards for the purpose of tackling that alone. - standards for the purpose of tackling that alone. let - standards for the purpose of tackling that alone.- standards for the purpose of tackling that alone. let me ask another question. _ tackling that alone. let me ask another question. thank - tackling that alone. let me ask another question. thank you i tackling that alone. let me ask i another question. thank you very much indeed, claire, in south west london, respiratory doctor. itv executives are going to appear before mps executives are going to appear before mp5 on the culture, media and sports committee next week, there is the saga which many people have been following closely with phillip schofield on this morning. two serious questions need to be asked and, if so, what, nick? —— do serious. i and, if so, what, nick? -- do serious-— and, if so, what, nick? -- do serious. ., ~ , ., . serious. i do think this now having been a story _ serious. i do think this now having been a story for— serious. i do think this now having been a story for recent _ serious. i do think this now having been a story for recent days - serious. i do think this now having been a story for recent days is - been a story for recent days is obviously— been a story for recent days is obviously a concern. i think the executives— obviously a concern. i think the executives of itv, they are quite right— executives of itv, they are quite right to — executives of itv, they are quite right to be — executives of itv, they are quite right to be opening themselves up to independent scrutiny. it is difficult, speaking frankly, to pull back the — difficult, speaking frankly, to pull back the veil on this and to see exactly— back the veil on this and to see exactly what has happened and if there _ exactly what has happened and if there has—

exactly what has happened and if there has been anything that is inappropriate, but i do think that answering — inappropriate, but i do think that answering it to parliament, to the country's — answering it to parliament, to the country's magically elected representatives is the right thing for itv— representatives is the right thing for ”v as — representatives is the right thing for itv as a broadcaster to be doing and i_ for itv as a broadcaster to be doing and i think— for itv as a broadcaster to be doing and i think that will be happening as i understand it very soon. what . uestions as i understand it very soon. what questions should _ as i understand it very soon. what questions should be _ as i understand it very soon. twat questions should be asked, kieran? as i understand it very soon. what i questions should be asked, kieran? i think we all want confidence that any high-profile _ think we all want confidence that any high—profile employer- think we all want confidence that any high—profile employer or- any high—profile employer or workplace, _ any high—profile employer or workplace, which _ any high—profile employer or workplace, which is - any high—profile employer or workplace, which is what - any high—profile employer or| workplace, which is what that any high—profile employer or- workplace, which is what that show is at the _ workplace, which is what that show is at the end — workplace, which is what that show is at the end of— workplace, which is what that show is at the end of the _ workplace, which is what that show is at the end of the day, _ workplace, which is what that show is at the end of the day, conducts i is at the end of the day, conducts itself— is at the end of the day, conducts itself properly— is at the end of the day, conducts itself properly and _ is at the end of the day, conducts itself properly and there - is at the end of the day, conducts itself properly and there is - is at the end of the day, conducts itself properly and there is a - itself properly and there is a suggestion— itself properly and there is a suggestion that _ itself properly and there is a suggestion that there - itself properly and there is a suggestion that there has i itself properly and there is a i suggestion that there has been inappropriate _ suggestion that there has been inappropriate behaviour, - suggestion that there has been inappropriate behaviour, so- suggestion that there has been inappropriate behaviour, so i. suggestion that there has been . inappropriate behaviour, so i think it is right _ inappropriate behaviour, so i think it is right the — inappropriate behaviour, so i think it is right the committee _ inappropriate behaviour, so i think it is right the committee is - inappropriate behaviour, so i think it is right the committee is asked i it is right the committee is asked to look— it is right the committee is asked to look into — it is right the committee is asked to look into this. _ it is right the committee is asked to look into this. i _ it is right the committee is asked to look into this. i welcome - it is right the committee is asked to look into this. i welcome the i to look into this. i welcome the decision— to look into this. i welcome the decision to _ to look into this. i welcome the decision to do _ to look into this. i welcome the decision to do that. _ to look into this. i welcome the decision to do that. like - to look into this. i welcome the decision to do that. like nick, ij decision to do that. like nick, i don't _ decision to do that. like nick, i don't know— decision to do that. like nick, i don't know what _ decision to do that. like nick, i don't know what has _ decision to do that. like nick, i don't know what has gone - decision to do that. like nick, i don't know what has gone on. decision to do that. like nick, ii don't know what has gone on all decision to do that. like nick, i- don't know what has gone on all the detail— don't know what has gone on all the detail and _ don't know what has gone on all the detail and a — don't know what has gone on all the detail and a lot _ don't know what has gone on all the detail and a lot of— don't know what has gone on all the detail and a lot of what _ don't know what has gone on all the detail and a lot of what you - don't know what has gone on all the detail and a lot of what you read - don't know what has gone on all the detail and a lot of what you read in. detail and a lot of what you read in the papers, — detail and a lot of what you read in the papers. you _ detail and a lot of what you read in the papers. you do— detail and a lot of what you read in the papers, you do not— detail and a lot of what you read in the papers, you do not know- detail and a lot of what you read in the papers, you do not know is - detail and a lot of what you read in i the papers, you do not know is true. i the papers, you do not know is true. i understand — the papers, you do not know is true. i understand why _ the papers, you do not know is true. i understand why people _ the papers, you do not know is true. i understand why people are - i understand why people are concerned _ i understand why people are concerned ia _ i understand why people are concerned ia —— _ i understand why people are concerned ia —— and - i understand why people are concerned ia —— and i'm - i understand why people are | concerned ia —— and i'm glad i understand why people are - concerned ia —— and i'm glad that is one of— concerned ia —— and i'm glad that is one of the _ concerned ia —— and i'm glad that is one of the new— concerned ia —— and i'm glad that is one of the new by _ concerned ia —— and i'm glad that is one of the new by which _ concerned ia —— and i'm glad that is one of the new by which it - concerned ia —— and i'm glad that is one of the new by which it can - concerned ia —— and i'm glad that is one of the new by which it can be i one of the new by which it can be put under— one of the new by which it can be put under a — one of the new by which it can be put under a microscope. - one of the new by which it can be put under a microscope.- one of the new by which it can be put under a microscope. carla. the ruestions put under a microscope. carla. the questions they _ put under a microscope. carla. the questions they need _ put under a microscope. carla. the questions they need to _ put under a microscope. carla. the questions they need to be - put under a microscope. carla. the questions they need to be asking l questions they need to be asking are, what did the senior itv managers know and when and if they

do more than simply ask one or two questions and decide it was fine or did they do a proper investigation at the time, given that it seems we now know staff and crew were clearly raising serious concerns about conducting their workplace? as kieran says, this is a workplace, a bit unusual, but a workplace like any other. so what does it say about our entertainment industry after meetoo and the power individuals in powerful positions have a younger, less powerful staff? we need all of our workplaces, whatever industry they are in, to be inclusive and safe for everyone in them and just reflecting this back to similar, different but similar problems that we see in government, we cannot have one or two people at the top seeming to be above the rules. but! one or two people at the top seeming to be above the rules.— to be above the rules. and it is a familiar line _ to be above the rules. and it is a familiar line of _ to be above the rules. and it is a familiar line of investigation - to be above the rules. and it is a familiar line of investigation and | familiar line of investigation and inquiry, who knew what and when? let's go to keith in basingstoke. a

question about money, money, money. what is it? always, isn't it? what i wanted _ what is it? always, isn't it? what i wanted to— what is it? always, isn't it? what i wanted to know _ what is it? always, isn't it? what i wanted to know really _ what is it? always, isn't it? what i wanted to know really is _ what is it? always, isn't it? what i wanted to know really is how- what is it? always, isn't it? what i wanted to know really is how the l wanted to know really is how the government _ wanted to know really is how the government is— wanted to know really is how the government is condoning - wanted to know really is how the government is condoning the - wanted to know really is how the l government is condoning the bank wanted to know really is how the - government is condoning the bank of england _ government is condoning the bank of england increasing _ government is condoning the bank of england increasing interest— government is condoning the bank of england increasing interest rates- government is condoning the bank of england increasing interest rates to l england increasing interest rates to combat _ england increasing interest rates to combat inflation _ england increasing interest rates to combat inflation when _ england increasing interest rates to combat inflation when it _ england increasing interest rates to combat inflation when it is- england increasing interest rates to combat inflation when it is the - combat inflation when it is the majority— combat inflation when it is the majority of— combat inflation when it is the majority of the _ combat inflation when it is the majority of the people - combat inflation when it is the majority of the people that - combat inflation when it is the . majority of the people that don't actually — majority of the people that don't actually have _ majority of the people that don't actually have enough _ majority of the people that don't actually have enough money, . majority of the people that don't actually have enough money, so| majority of the people that don't - actually have enough money, so their money— actually have enough money, so their money is _ actually have enough money, so their money is going — actually have enough money, so their money is going to _ actually have enough money, so their money is going to bills— actually have enough money, so their money is going to bills and _ money is going to bills and mortgages— money is going to bills and mortgages and _ money is going to bills and mortgages and anything i money is going to bills and . mortgages and anything else money is going to bills and - mortgages and anything else and money is going to bills and _ mortgages and anything else and they are going _ mortgages and anything else and they are going skint— mortgages and anything else and they are going skint and _ mortgages and anything else and they are going skint and losing _ mortgages and anything else and they are going skint and losing their- are going skint and losing their homes, — are going skint and losing their homes, while _ are going skint and losing their homes, while the _ are going skint and losing their homes, while the rich - are going skint and losing their homes, while the rich are - are going skint and losing their- homes, while the rich are breaking it in on— homes, while the rich are breaking it in on the — homes, while the rich are breaking it in on the savings— homes, while the rich are breaking it in on the savings and _ homes, while the rich are breaking it in on the savings and interest. it in on the savings and interest rates _ it in on the savings and interest rates and — it in on the savings and interest rates and everything _ it in on the savings and interest rates and everything else, - it in on the savings and interest rates and everything else, so. it in on the savings and interest . rates and everything else, so how does _ rates and everything else, so how does that— rates and everything else, so how does that combat _ rates and everything else, so how does that combat inflation - rates and everything else, so how does that combat inflation when l does that combat inflation when people — does that combat inflation when people need _ does that combat inflation when people need money— does that combat inflation when people need money to - does that combat inflation when people need money to actually. does that combat inflation when - people need money to actually spend to combat— people need money to actually spend to combat inflation? _ people need money to actually spend to combat inflation? that— people need money to actually spend to combat inflation?— people need money to actually spend to combat inflation? that was gordon brown that made _ to combat inflation? that was gordon brown that made the _ to combat inflation? that was gordon brown that made the bank— to combat inflation? that was gordon brown that made the bank of- to combat inflation? that was gordon| brown that made the bank of england independent and responsible for their own decisions. nick thomas—symonds, come in here. their own decisions. nick thomas-symonds, come in here. well, i do thomas-symonds, come in here. well, i do sopport _ thomas-symonds, come in here. well, i do sopport the — thomas-symonds, come in here. well, i do support the bank— thomas-symonds, come in here. well, i do support the bank of— thomas—symonds, come in here. well, i do support the bank of england's independence and i think that is a

really— independence and i think that is a really important principle. but why is the _ really important principle. but why is the bank of england in this position? _ is the bank of england in this position? well, we know about the hangover— position? well, we know about the hangover effect unfortunately that exists _ hangover effect unfortunately that exists after the mini—budget chaos of last— exists after the mini—budget chaos of last year. the conservative mortgage premium that now exists. indeed. _ mortgage premium that now exists. indeed, there are fewer mortgages on offei’, _ indeed, there are fewer mortgages on offer. even _ indeed, there are fewer mortgages on offer, even being put forward at the moment _ offer, even being put forward at the moment. so the blame lies squarely on the _ moment. so the blame lies squarely on the shoulders of this conservative government. that not only is _ conservative government. that not only is not — conservative government. that not only is not doing enough to assist people _ only is not doing enough to assist people with the cost of living, but their reckless actions, meticulous sorting, _ their reckless actions, meticulous sorting, have made the situation significantly worse.— sorting, have made the situation significantly worse. kieran, got to brina ou significantly worse. kieran, got to bring you in- _ significantly worse. kieran, got to bring you in. how _ significantly worse. kieran, got to bring you in. how much _ significantly worse. kieran, got to bring you in. how much damage l significantly worse. kieran, got to l bring you in. how much damage did the truss and quieting disastrous reign because? == the truss and quieting disastrous reign because?— the truss and quieting disastrous reian because? . , . reign because? -- kwasi kwarteng? it is labour's attack _ reign because? -- kwasi kwarteng? it is labour's attack line _ reign because? -- kwasi kwarteng? it is labour's attack line to _ reign because? -- kwasi kwarteng? it is labour's attack line to make - reign because? -- kwasi kwarteng? it is labour's attack line to make out - is labour's attack line to make out the global—

is labour's attack line to make out the global inflation crisis that is worse _ the global inflation crisis that is worse in — the global inflation crisis that is worse in many countries in europe, interest— worse in many countries in europe, interest rates rising across the world — interest rates rising across the world and _ interest rates rising across the world and mortgage rates rising is our fault _ world and mortgage rates rising is our fault and that is not a serious or credible — our fault and that is not a serious or credible argument. it our fault and that is not a serious or credible argument.— or credible argument. it almost certainly--- _ or credible argument. it almost certainly... at _ or credible argument. it almost certainly... at the _ or credible argument. it almost certainly... at the time - or credible argument. it almost certainly... at the time of - or credible argument. it almost certainly... at the time of the l certainly... at the time of the financial crisis, you kept saying it was labour's fault. taste financial crisis, you kept saying it was labour's fault.— was labour's fault. we didn't say the crisis was _ was labour's fault. we didn't say the crisis was labour's _ was labour's fault. we didn't say the crisis was labour's fault, - was labour's fault. we didn't say the crisis was labour's fault, we | the crisis was labour's fault, we said _ the crisis was labour's fault, we said they— the crisis was labour's fault, we said they had not been careful with the public— said they had not been careful with the public finances to enable them to take _ the public finances to enable them to take the steps we would want when it comes _ to take the steps we would want when it comes to— to take the steps we would want when it comes to supporting the economy through— it comes to supporting the economy through spending, so we had to go down _ through spending, so we had to go down the _ through spending, so we had to go down the cutting routes. in complete contrast _ down the cutting routes. in complete contrast to _ down the cutting routes. in complete contrast to what happened during covid _ contrast to what happened during covid because the conservatives had been careful with the economy over that period, so we were able to take really _ that period, so we were able to take really impressive steps to support the economy and support individual people~ _ the economy and support individual people so — the economy and support individual people. so i absolutely understand the frustrations of people with the mortgage costs they associate with those _ mortgage costs they associate with those interest—rate rises, but i think— those interest—rate rises, but i think the — those interest—rate rises, but i think the reason why one of the top priorities— think the reason why one of the top priorities for government is halving inflation _ priorities for government is halving inflation is — priorities for government is halving inflation is because that will undercut our spending power and make us all poorer _ undercut our spending power and make us all poorer in the long run and that's— us all poorer in the long run and that's why—

us all poorer in the long run and that's why the bank of england are acting _ that's why the bank of england are acting on— that's why the bank of england are acting on interest rates. the economy— acting on interest rates. the economy has overheated, inflation really _ economy has overheated, inflation really does damage all of our incomes _ really does damage all of our incomes. so was the government is absolute _ incomes. so was the government is absolute right to step in as i talked — absolute right to step in as i talked about early in the programme with things like the energy bill hope. — with things like the energy bill hope, cost of living payments. debt enera bill hope, cost of living payments. debt energy bill help- — hope, cost of living payments. iliejit energy bill help. mortgages will really cripple people financially. it is very challenging. it is really cripple people financially. it is very challenging.— it is very challenging. it is not challenging _ it is very challenging. it is not challenging. people _ it is very challenging. it is not challenging. people end - it is very challenging. it is not challenging. people end up. it is very challenging. it is not - challenging. people end up losing their homes— challenging. people end up losing their homes over— challenging. people end up losing their homes over this. _ challenging. people end up losing their homes over this. children. challenging. people end up losing l their homes over this. children lose their homes over this. children lose their homes — their homes over this. children lose their homes. and _ their homes over this. children lose their homes. and the _ their homes over this. children lose their homes. and the banks - their homes over this. children lose i their homes. and the banks profiteer because _ their homes. and the banks profiteer because they — their homes. and the banks profiteer because they take _ their homes. and the banks profiteer because they take the _ their homes. and the banks profiteer because they take the home - their homes. and the banks profiteer because they take the home away . their homes. and the banks profiteerl because they take the home away and sell them _ because they take the home away and sell them on _ because they take the home away and sellthem on an— because they take the home away and sell them on an auction _ because they take the home away and sell them on an auction for— because they take the home away and sell them on an auction for a - because they take the home away and sell them on an auction for a tenth - sell them on an auction for a tenth of what _ sell them on an auction for a tenth of what they— sell them on an auction for a tenth of what they would _ sell them on an auction for a tenth of what they would have _ sell them on an auction for a tenth of what they would have done - sell them on an auction for a tenth of what they would have done if i sell them on an auction for a tenth l of what they would have done if they had allowed — of what they would have done if they had allowed the _ of what they would have done if they had allowed the person _ of what they would have done if they had allowed the person to _ of what they would have done if they had allowed the person to sell - of what they would have done if they had allowed the person to sell it - had allowed the person to sell it privately~ — had allowed the person to sell it privately~ i— had allowed the person to sell it privately. i mean, _ had allowed the person to sell it privately. i mean, what - had allowed the person to sell it privately. i mean, what is - had allowed the person to sell it privately. i mean, what is that. had allowed the person to sell iti privately. i mean, what is that all about? _ privately. i mean, what is that all about? , . ., privately. i mean, what is that all about? , . . ., about? keith, i understand that, to an one about? keith, i understand that, to anyone listening _ about? keith, i understand that, to anyone listening struggling - about? keith, i understand that, to anyone listening struggling with - anyone listening struggling with their mortgage payments, i would say you should _ their mortgage payments, i would say you should talk to your lender and they are _ you should talk to your lender and they are required to do everything they are required to do everything they can _ they are required to do everything they can to— they are required to do everything they can to support you to stay in your— they can to support you to stay in your home, — they can to support you to stay in your home, including reducing payments and extending the repayment period _

payments and extending the repayment period. they are required to help you and — period. they are required to help you and i— period. they are required to help you and i would encourage people to talk to— you and i would encourage people to talk to their lenders. the other difference now of course post the previous — difference now of course post the previous crashes we have tightened up previous crashes we have tightened up the _ previous crashes we have tightened up the rules on lending. so actually, _ up the rules on lending. so actually, the projection is a bank will run — actually, the projection is a bank will run through when deciding whether— will run through when deciding whether you can afford your mortgage, they are much tighter now. we had _ mortgage, they are much tighter now. we had the _ mortgage, they are much tighter now. we had the return of the deposit free mortgage, but there were very strict rules and guidelines around it. 62, i need to bring you in well we have time.— we have time. interest rates. i think the _ we have time. interest rates. i think the issue _ we have time. interest rates. i think the issue keith _ we have time. interest rates. i think the issue keith is - think the issue keith is highlighting is quite right —— carla. the government are not sufficiently considering the impact the increasing inflation and interest rates has on ordinary people, whether it is on their rent or mortgage, and certainly our housing market and our private rental market especially, but buying also is out of control. i do support the independence of the bank of england. so i don't think the government should be directly setting interest rates. but there is

a lot more the government could be doing to help those people that are negatively affected by those changes. i already talked about benefits and the fact the green party would immediately increase universal credit by £40 a week to adjust for the fact the cost of living has gone up. but government also needs to look at paying people fairly. you know it is not a coincidence we are seeing lots of strikes at the moment. we have the rail strikes happening today. because people's incomes are not going up with inflation. and sol think public—sector workers especially, where government has a particular responsibility, should see inflation matching pay rises because otherwise, they are getting effective pay cuts. and many have had affected pay cuts by not keeping up had affected pay cuts by not keeping up with inflation for ten or more years. most health care workers, for example. years. most health care workers, for examle. ., . , ., example. you are both dying to come back, but! example. you are both dying to come back, but i have _ example. you are both dying to come back, but i have to _ example. you are both dying to come back, but i have to call— example. you are both dying to come back, but i have to call a _ example. you are both dying to come back, but i have to call a halt - example. you are both dying to come back, but i have to call a halt on - back, but i have to call a halt on

proceedings. because we are out of time. but listen, thank you all so much. from the greens, carla denyer, the conservative party's kieran mullan, the good doctor, and nick thomas—symonds, the good lawyer. and carla of course, a great engineer. thank you, you have been great this morning, i hope you come back, kieran, carla and nick. have a great wednesday. live from london — this is bbc news. uk rail passengers facing disruption — as more than 12,000 train drivers walk out over pay and working conditions i'm a i'm a paddington station in central london where very few trains are running impaired to a normal day and in some part of the country there are no services at all. north korea admits it tried — and failed — to send its first satellite into space, causing alarm in south korea and japan.