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tv   Newsnight  BBC News  May 31, 2023 10:30pm-11:10pm BST

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into parts of north—west england into parts of western scotland, absolutely glorious, temperatures peaking into the lower 20s once again. so it really is a tale of two sites across the country, and where we have got that sunshine, well, it is grass pollen, so pollen will be pretty high across much of central and western parts. as we head into the weekend, the high pressurejust drifts a little bit further east, and so we might start to see some changes. there is a good deal of dry weather through out the remainder of this week, plenty of sunshine coming through, temperature starting to be a little bit more even right across the country. huw. three suns in swansea isn't too bad! and that's bbc news at ten on wednesday 31st may. there's more analysis of the day's main stories on newsnight with victoria derbyshire, which isjust getting under way on bbc two. the news continues here on bbc one, as now it's time to join our colleagues across the nations and regions for the news where you are. but from the ten team,
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it's goodnight.
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after multiple racist incidents involving uk police officers — newsnight learns that the initiative set up to tackle racism in policing in england and wales is now facing allegations of racism itself. some ethnic minority staff who used
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to work for the unit tell this programme they believed they were seen as "troublemakers" or "difficult". i was treated differently my white colleagues by a lack of support when the workload increased. i increasingly felt my voice and at times might lived and professional experience were being ignored. we'll ask the chair of the body tasked with oversight of the programme where this leaves the police race action plan. also tonight — south africa grants diplomatic immunity to world leaders attending a conference in august. president putin himself has outstanding arrest warrants for war crimes, so will he now turn up injoburg? the message is that south africa would have been showing is that it prefers its relationship with mr putin to its relationship with all the member states of the rome statute.
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we ask two south african policy experts where the country's allegiances should lie. the drug tranq is sweeping across the states of america — it's now here in the uk as well. it can leave users in a a zombie—like state and it can also lead to lesions and open wounds. we'll talk to a woman who was dependent on it, and a uk expert on the dangers it might pose here. and now borisjohnson says he's handed all his notebooks and whatapps to the government, will it hand them over to the covid inquiry by 4pm tomorrow orface legal action? lucy fisher, whitehall editor of the financial times, is here with a briefing. in recent months — years — this programme has brought you multiple stories of racist behaviourfrom uk police officers, from racist whatsapp messages between former officers about flooding in pakistan, or harry and meghan, which led to one ex—constable being arrested;
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racist whatsapp messages from staff at charing cross station with references to african children, somali people and auschwitz, officers who took and shared photos of two black murder victims, nicole smallman and bibaa henry. child 0, a teenage black girl strip searched by female officers whilst on her period with no adult present, — a report concluding racism likely played a factor in the officers�* decision. most recently, a review by baroness louise casey concluded that the met police were institutionally racist and the boss of police scotland last week declared his force too was institutionally racist. that's by no means an exhaustive list. many otherjournalists have covered similar stories. so, what happens when the very police initiative set up to tackle racism in forces in england and wales is itself facing claims of racism? here's sima.
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police officers have been inundated by claims of racism in recent years. but now, the very team set up to tackle this is at the centre of fresh claims of racism. the police race action plan, published last year, aims to build trust with black communities. the plan's foreword says, "we accept that policing still contains racism, discrimination and bias. we are ashamed of those truths so we apologise for them and we are determined to change them." it outlines a national strategy which all forces are supposed to implement at a local level. things like having their own bespoke race plan and training their officers in antiracism. this small unit is tasked with trying to make this happen. ijoined the programme to share my lived and professional experience, as far as my knowledge and working in the police. i was treated differently to my white colleagues,
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by a lack of support being offered when the workload increased. it was openly questioned if black people were even needed to work on the plan. i increasingly felt that my voice and at times my lived and professional experience were being ignored. one person who worked on the programme told us they had this experience. they've asked to remain anonymous because of their current role, so an actor has voiced their words. the fact that these behaviours have been displayed on a programme that set out with the good intention to improve the experience for black people working in or interacting with the police was perplexing. it left me thinking at times how serious police were in wanting to make tangible change. the entire process left me completely disillusioned. black staff in my opinion were seen as troublemakers or difficult for providing a perspective from black people. they're just one of several people of colour who raised serious
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concerns about discrimination at the unit, with some saying their experiences were belittled and ignored. we've also seen documentation outlining other complaints from people of colour with some raising serious questions about the credibility and true intentions of the programme. the head of the association founded after the inquiry into the racist murder of stephen lawrence says the programme just isn't working. the members that we've supported have outlined areas where they have been marginalised within the plan. they've been sidelined. at times they've almost been gaslit as well around some of the issues, almost saying that black people are sometimes the problem and that they are loud in challenging. before the action plan was launched we spoke to one of the men who was in charge of putting it together. there will be some thinking there is a white man sitting here talking about race, explaining what the problem is, how severe it is, but he hasn't got the understanding that a person of colour perhaps would have.
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what would you say to them? yeah i absolutely think that's a very legitimate question. we've got black and ethnic minority staff and chief officers engaged in this working programme as well. but the other issue i think is important is, if we're going to succeed in building an antiracist police force surely it is the people in the majority, and white men, who have to be at the forefront of saying that this needs to change. and part of learning how to get the plan right is listening to people's lived experiences. because the worst thing i can do is present a plan that is my answer to solve a problem other people experience. sir david thompson has since retired and isn't the subject of any allegations. but it's this listening he talks about that we are told isn't always happening. we need to have more conversations about how to deliver on the plan. last month the man in charge
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of the strategy retired. deputy chief constable tyron joyce faced an unrelated allegation of bullying at the unit. he hasn't commented on this. he was one of the most senior black officers in uk policing. in response to the claims in this report, the national police chiefs�* council chair told us: "we will be issuing a refreshed action plan that i'm confident we'll deliver the change our workforce and the communities we serve need and deserve. i'm not aware of any official complaints or allegations related to racism, however i'm deeply saddened to hear of the experiences expressed in this report. anyone who carries toxic attitudes, be that racist, misogynist, homophobic or discriminatory, does not belong in policing. in my first week in the role i gave a commitment that those who trust us the least should have the most opportunity to influence, and these experiences will influence
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how i lead the programme in future." i'm a little bit sceptical but hopeful at the same time. i think it will drive some change but as i said, i think the things that have been outlined in the casey report which completely looked at the culture within the met, our membership would say that's indicative of other police services across the united kingdom and now, for me, what we need to be looking at is fundamental reform rather than action plans thatjust look at tinkering around the edges. these latest allegations paint a picture of a body beset by problems at a time when trust in policing amongst people of colour is a critical issue. abimbola johnson is the chair of the independent scrutiny & oversight board which has helped both develop and challenge the work of the police race action plan. shejoins me now. were you aware of some of these multiple claims? i
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were you aware of some of these multiple claims?— were you aware of some of these multiple claims? i hadn't been told about the specifics _ multiple claims? i hadn't been told about the specifics of _ multiple claims? i hadn't been told about the specifics of the _ multiple claims? i hadn't been told about the specifics of the claims. i about the specifics of the claims. from the outset of my tenure as chair and when my board came into play, we raised consistent concerns about the structure of the race action programme's team. the fact that it follows a pyramid, that it's a sequential ranking process in terms of who has leadership positions. we raised the concern because we know from the precursor to the race action plan that there are consistent issues around the structure of policing and the fact that it manifests institutional racism. it talks about procedures and processes, the fact that those who are people of colour and black and particular do not sit in senior leadership positions in the police in a proportionate manner. 50 leadership positions in the police in a proportionate manner. so are ou in a proportionate manner. so are you shocked _ in a proportionate manner. so are you shocked or— in a proportionate manner. so are you shocked or not _ in a proportionate manner. so are you shocked or not by _ in a proportionate manner. so are you shocked or not by these - in a proportionate manner. so are i you shocked or not by these claims? i'm not shocked because i think the very structure... the
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i'm not shocked because i think the very structure. . ._ very structure... the unit set up to tackle policing? _ very structure... the unit set up to tackle policing? no _ very structure... the unit set up to tackle policing? no because - very structure... the unit set up to tackle policing? no because the i tackle policing? no because the structure of _ tackle policing? no because the structure of the _ tackle policing? no because the structure of the team, - tackle policing? no because the structure of the team, people i tackle policing? no because the i structure of the team, people were put in positions not based on their track record in delivering antiracism but their proven track record in policing in general. without having that at the forefront of their minds when they created the structure, it fell short and it fell subject at the same criticisms we've seen of institutional racism in policing. seen of institutional racism in olicin: . ~ seen of institutional racism in olicinu. ~ seen of institutional racism in olicinu. ., ., policing. were you pointing that out to them? yes. _ policing. were you pointing that out to them? yes, we _ policing. were you pointing that out to them? yes, we have _ policing. were you pointing that out to them? yes, we have been. - policing. were you pointing that out to them? yes, we have been. every presentation _ to them? yes, we have been. every presentation i've _ to them? yes, we have been. every presentation i've given _ to them? yes, we have been. every presentation i've given as _ to them? yes, we have been. every presentation i've given as chair- presentation i've given as chair even prior to the board being brought in, i've highlighted that many black and brown officers were in positions where they were doing the daily work but didn't have the decision—making power in the structure. since gavin stevens has come into play he has prioritised the fact that the structure must be looked at, that each of the officers and staff members doing the work need to be better supported through
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things like better admin support, their welfare needs to be considered, they need to be properly respected and listened to.— respected and listened to. should the new head _ respected and listened to. should the new head be _ respected and listened to. should the new head be a _ respected and listened to. should the new head be a minority - respected and listened to. shouldj the new head be a minority ethnic officer? it the new head be a minority ethnic officer? , ., , ., ., officer? it should be someone with a roven officer? it should be someone with a proven dedication _ officer? it should be someone with a proven dedication to _ officer? it should be someone with a proven dedication to antiracism - proven dedication to antiracism work. if they are someone who isn't a person of colour they have to show that they have acted in a manner that they have acted in a manner that demonstrates that dedication and even if they are a person of colour they need to do that too. we have argued it should be someone potentially who is external to policing and has the skill set because policing has never got it right, it has never adequately tackled racism in policing. that's a aood tackled racism in policing. that's a good point- _ tackled racism in policing. that's a good point- if— tackled racism in policing. that's a good point. if policing _ tackled racism in policing. that's a good point. if policing had - tackled racism in policing. that's a good point. if policing had never. good point. if policing had never got it right, should be scrapped? should it be started again? i don't think it should _ should it be started again? i don't think it should be _ should it be started again? i don't think it should be scrapped, - should it be started again? i don't think it should be scrapped, there| think it should be scrapped, there are some fantastic people working in the programme who have built good relationships with community members, local police forces, and demonstrated that dedication and putting a lot time, effort and personal sacrifice but they should be a personal willingness to
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restructure the programme. they should recognise that the wrong people might be involved. so a restructure. — people might be involved. so a restructure, that's _ people might be involved. so a restructure, that's kind - people might be involved. so a restructure, that's kind of starting again, isn't it? restructure, that's kind of starting again. isn't it?— again, isn't it? there's a lot of work which — again, isn't it? there's a lot of work which i _ again, isn't it? there's a lot of work which i think— again, isn't it? there's a lot of work which i think is _ again, isn't it? there's a lot of work which i think is still- again, isn't it? there's a lot of i work which i think is still useful. there are personnel who i think maybe should be promoted beyond their positions and others who might be better being moved out of the programme. i think a restructure might emanate in many different ways. might emanate in many different wa s. . y ., might emanate in many different wa s. ., ., might emanate in many different was. ., ., ., ., ways. can you hand on heart really sa to the ways. can you hand on heart really say to the ethnic _ ways. can you hand on heart really say to the ethnic minority - ways. can you hand on heart really say to the ethnic minority staff- say to the ethnic minority staff that you can have confidence in the unit? can you hand on heart say to black people in communities across the country, you can have confidence in this unit? i the country, you can have confidence in this unit?— in this unit? i think they can have confidence _ in this unit? i think they can have confidence if _ in this unit? i think they can have confidence if the _ in this unit? i think they can have confidence if the programme - confidence if the programme responds. if it remains as it is and people see the same rhetoric, that there is potential, there will be change, then i can understand confidence being lost.- change, then i can understand confidence being lost. thanks for talkinu confidence being lost. thanks for talkin: to confidence being lost. thanks for talking to us- _ in the last 48 hours, south africa has said it will grant diplomatic immunity to officials
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going to the brics summit being held in johannesberg in august. brics is intended to strengthen ties between the nations that make it up — brazil, russia, india, china and south africa. among those who may attend the august meeting, russian president vladimir putin, who's been accused by the international criminal court of war crimes, committed, they say, during russia's invasion of ukraine. south africa has refused to condemn russia's actions, insisting it wants to remain neutral but under its current laws, south africa is obliged to arrest mr putin if he arrives on its shores because it's a member of the icc. however, a deputy minister in the south african presidency told the bbc it's going to change the law to give south africa the right to decide "who to arrest and who not to arrest." here's mark. sergei lavrov likes to travel. and whereas it might appear that this tour of africa is an example of time travel
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to a moment before the invasion of ukraine, it's actually been this week. yesterday it was burundi, with an uncompromising message on the wall. translation: since the west insists there is no other basis _ for resolving the ukrainian situation except for the notorious zelensky peace formula and at the same time zelensky�*s team threatens after liberating, as they put it, the crimea and the eastern regions of ukraine, to start killing every russian and destroy everything russian there, the conclusion is very simple — the west directly supports the genocide. and there was an insight into why many african countries abstained from condemning russia's invasion in un votes and now received mr lavrov. translation: we have taken an abstentionist position, - a position of neutrality, a position of non—alignment to prevent this conflict from reaching other regions — more specifically, the african continent. we must mitigate the impact
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of this conflict of this situation in ukraine. in particular by taking a neutral position and this is the position of most african countries on the issue. and in south africa, it is notjust the minister getting a warm welcome. last month a russian frigate docked in south africa, a prelude to joint naval exercises with russia and china. for those running the anc, the long history of standing shoulder to shoulder with russia in the anti—imperialist struggle outweighs what has happened in the past year. if it was according to the anc, we would want president putin to be here even tomorrow. you would? to come to our country. you would welcome vladimir putin here right now? of course we... a man who is being investigated for war crimes by the international criminal court? we would welcome him to come here as part and parcel of brics but we know that we are constrained by the icc in terms of doing that.
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putin is a head of state. do you think a head of state can just be arrested anywhere? how many crimes have your country committed in iraq? now the question has arisen of inviting vladimir putin for a summit of the brics emerging economies planned for august, with south africa saying it could give him diplomatic immunity to attend. what message would that send to the 130 plus other countries that signed the rome statute, setting up the international court? the message is that south africa would have been showing that it prefers its relationship with mr putin to its relationship with all the member states of the rome statute. but it is important to ensure that this does not become round two of what we experienced when the icc had issues with south africa in relation to al—bashir.
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everyone must try hard to avoid a return to that situation. omar al—bashir was the sudanese leader previously indicted by the international court, leading to an earlier row with south africa. whether or not president putin risks a visit, south africa already stands accused by america of sending arms to russia on this ship, seen transiting the bosporus earlier this year. the opposition in south africa suggests the anc�*s position is less about being good comrades and more about cash. i happen to think that we have been supplying arms to russia and i believe that the nexus between russian money and the anc is what lies at the heart of that. the south african opposition is now advertising its objections to the government's plans and western countries are as well. but this summit is already revealing the gulf between many african nations and the west.
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let's speak to sanusha naywdu. she's a senior research fellow at south africa's institute for global dialogue. and with me here, desne masie is chief economist & editor of insights newsletter at ic intelligence, a strategic advisory firm. welcome to both of you. sanusha naidu, would it be a mistake for south africa to welcome president putin in august?— south africa to welcome president putin in august? good evening. it is a really difficult _ putin in august? good evening. it is a really difficult one _ putin in august? good evening. it is a really difficult one for south - a really difficult one for south africa. technically, in terms of theoretical, you listen to the anc government and the party itself, they feel as if they are being snookered into a corner because of the way they interpret the impact of the way they interpret the impact of the icc and the domestication of their own statute and the implications it has in terms of the conundrum they face with regard to the whole question around the icc
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arrest warrant. one of the earlier issues they raised in particular commentary in response to the issue was also the question about whether this icc arrest warrant came through the united nations security council, raising that is another question or contradiction in terms of how this is being applied in practice. so i think they find themselves on the one hand in that predicament but they also want to basically put on record their objections to the weight it is being defined in practice. weight it is being defined in ractice. , , , weight it is being defined in ractice. ,, , ., practice. desne masie, is it a conundrum, a predicament? | practice. desne masie, is it a| conundrum, a predicament? i practice. desne masie, is it a - conundrum, a predicament? ithink it is a predicament _ conundrum, a predicament? ithink it is a predicament for _ conundrum, a predicament? ithink it is a predicament for south _ conundrum, a predicament? ithink it is a predicament for south africa. - is a predicament for south africa. thank_ is a predicament for south africa. thank you. — is a predicament for south africa. thank you, sanusha for that. i think it's really— thank you, sanusha for that. i think it's really important. thing to remember, of course this war in ukraine— remember, of course this war in ukraine is— remember, of course this war in ukraine is tragic and we are sitting here in_ ukraine is tragic and we are sitting here in london and it's very much on our doorsteu — here in london and it's very much on our doorstep. yes, it is a tragedy. for south— our doorstep. yes, it is a tragedy. for south africa, which has a very long _ for south africa, which has a very long history— for south africa, which has a very long history with russia,
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historically russia extended hope to south _ historically russia extended hope to south africa during its struggle against — south africa during its struggle against apartheid so there is a history— against apartheid so there is a history of— against apartheid so there is a history of military and defence, mititary— history of military and defence, military and intelligence cooperation. russia had no african colonies _ cooperation. russia had no african colonies so — cooperation. russia had no african colonies so it was quite important in africa's— colonies so it was quite important in africa's wider decolonisation project — in africa's wider decolonisation project and of course with the emergence of the brics, the question really is _ emergence of the brics, the question really is for _ emergence of the brics, the question really is for south africa, can it 'ust really is for south africa, can it just sort— really is for south africa, can it just sort of— really is for south africa, can it just sort of turned its back on those — just sort of turned its back on those historical ties to russia? which — those historical ties to russia? which may be western commentators do not have _ which may be western commentators do not have you _ which may be western commentators do not have. you know, an insight into. you know— not have. you know, an insight into. you know it's — not have. you know, an insight into. you know it's not to say i'm ok with what _ you know it's not to say i'm ok with what putin— you know it's not to say i'm ok with what putin is— you know it's not to say i'm ok with what putin is doing, i'm trying to -ive what putin is doing, i'm trying to give some — what putin is doing, i'm trying to give some context to history the ruling _ give some context to history the ruling party has with russia. canl ruling party has with russia. can i ask for your _ ruling party has with russia. can i ask for your opinion _ ruling party has with russia. can i ask for your opinion then? - ruling party has with russia. can i ask for your opinion then? do - ruling party has with russia. can i ask for your opinion then? do you think they should welcome president putin or not? i think they should welcome president putin or not?— putin or not? i think the icc has made it very —
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putin or not? i think the icc has made it very clear _ putin or not? i think the icc has made it very clear there - putin or not? i think the icc has made it very clear there is - putin or not? i think the icc has made it very clear there is an i made it very clear there is an arrest — made it very clear there is an arrest warrant for putin, that's what _ arrest warrant for putin, that's what i — arrest warrant for putin, that's what i understand and i understand the diplomatic, i'm not an expert on diplomatic— the diplomatic, i'm not an expert on diplomatic law, i understand that diplomatic law, i understand that diplomatic immunity deals with the day—to—day business of diplomats and heads _ day—to—day business of diplomats and heads of— day—to—day business of diplomats and heads of state going about their business — heads of state going about their business. i believe that an international tribunal has overreach into that _ international tribunal has overreach into that. ~ . , international tribunal has overreach intothat. . , , , into that. which is why there is the conversation _ into that. which is why there is the conversation in _ into that. which is why there is the conversation in south _ into that. which is why there is the conversation in south africa - into that. which is why there is the j conversation in south africa about, we are going to change our law so we can decide to arrest or not. sanusha , south africa has said it wants to remain neutral when it comes to ukraine but as mark explained a few moments ago in the report, it has done thesejoint moments ago in the report, it has done these joint exercises with russia and there are reports from the us that south africa is potentially sending ammunition to russia. that does not sound neutral.
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i think you have to go back to context and it's very important in terms of understanding. the issue at hand. the question of the ammunitions is basically under a commission of inquiry to determine whether or not south africa did sell ammunitions or did allow for ammunitions or did allow for ammunitions to board the vessel that was cited in the insert but again, the challenge right now really the question of the inflection point we find ourselves in the geopolitical architecture. and i think the question also remains in terms of this notion of granting diplomatic immunity and changing laws when it comes to the legal dynamics international law versus your domestication of the rome statute. it will not be that easy, in my opinion. again, i'm notan it will not be that easy, in my opinion. again, i'm not an expert on international law on how it applies but i think it will be quite a tedious task is not a long task in
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terms of setting that kind of legislation before parliament, by the time it goes through the necessary processes and procedures. again, those are the challenges but i think when it comes to the reputational risk and the kind of body blows south africa is taking on this in terms of its relationship and its engagement in the brics, it becomes much more thanjust and its engagement in the brics, it becomes much more than just about the question around mr putin. i think it is much more broader in terms of the way in which the global architecture is evolving and the kind of non—negotiable spaces we now find ourselves in. let kind of non-negotiable spaces we now find ourselves in.— find ourselves in. let me bring in desne masie _ find ourselves in. let me bring in desne masie again _ find ourselves in. let me bring in desne masie again if _ find ourselves in. let me bring in desne masie again if i _ find ourselves in. let me bring in desne masie again if i may. - find ourselves in. let me bring in desne masie again if i may. do i find ourselves in. let me bring in i desne masie again if i may. do you think the west was caught off—guard tjy think the west was caught off—guard by the south african position on ukraine, brazil, etc? absolutelyl wanted to pick— ukraine, brazil, etc? absolutelyl wanted to pick up _ ukraine, brazil, etc? absolutelyl wanted to pick up the _ ukraine, brazil, etc? absolutelyl wanted to pick up the point, - ukraine, brazil, etc? absolutelyl wanted to pick up the point, you | wanted to pick up the point, you asked _ wanted to pick up the point, you asked about neutrality, but the thing _ asked about neutrality, but the thing is, — asked about neutrality, but the thing is, the west, big inverted commas, — thing is, the west, big inverted commas, is not neutral in relation to the _ commas, is not neutral in relation to the war— commas, is not neutral in relation to the war in — commas, is not neutral in relation to the war in ukraine so therefore
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from _ to the war in ukraine so therefore from the — to the war in ukraine so therefore from the african perspective, does neutrality— from the african perspective, does neutrality mean siding with the g7 and the _ neutrality mean siding with the g7 and the western alliance? the brics were invented 20 years ago byjim 0neit— were invented 20 years ago byjim 0'neiiat_ were invented 20 years ago byjim o'neilat goldman were invented 20 years ago byjim o'neil at goldman sachs wrote a paper, _ o'neil at goldman sachs wrote a paper, i— o'neil at goldman sachs wrote a paper, i interviewed him last week, and what _ paper, i interviewed him last week, and what has happened is that the brics— and what has happened is that the brics now have more economic power than the _ brics now have more economic power than the g7~ _ brics now have more economic power than the g7. their gdp has surpassed in terms _ than the g7. their gdp has surpassed in terms of— than the g7. their gdp has surpassed in terms of bpp, far surpassed the g7 in terms of bpp, far surpassed the 67 so _ in terms of bpp, far surpassed the g7 so there's a lot power in there now _ g7 so there's a lot power in there now. and when there has been no money— now. and when there has been no money and — now. and when there has been no money and no support in the political— money and no support in the political economy, countries like russia _ political economy, countries like russia and china historically have extended — russia and china historically have extended capital as well as political and military support to many— political and military support to many african countries including south _ many african countries including south africa. 50 many african countries including south africa.— many african countries including south africa. .,~ , , , ., south africa. so it makes sense for them to look _ south africa. so it makes sense for them to look east _ south africa. so it makes sense for them to look east rather _ south africa. so it makes sense for them to look east rather than - south africa. so it makes sense forl them to look east rather than west? i don't think it is necessarily a
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bipotar— i don't think it is necessarily a bipolar world any more, i think we are in_ bipolar world any more, i think we are in a _ bipolar world any more, i think we are in a multipolar world and many outcomes— are in a multipolar world and many outcomes are possible. i think south africa, _ outcomes are possible. i think south africa, african countries may be need _ africa, african countries may be need to — africa, african countries may be need to keep their cards close to their— need to keep their cards close to their chest — need to keep their cards close to their chest and see what the world has to— their chest and see what the world has to offer. and i think they have a very— has to offer. and i think they have a very powerful role and a lot of agency — a very powerful role and a lot of agency now on the global stage. rank ou both agency now on the global stage. rank you both very — agency now on the global stage. rank you both very much _ agency now on the global stage. i—i you both very much for your insight and your expertise. —— thank you. there's a terrifying drug causing serious problems in the united states — and now it's in the uk. it's known as tranq and it can lead to abscesses, lesions and open wounds — it�*s been described as �*flesh rotting�*; and just to let you know we are going to show some of those images. the drug can also induces a zombie—like state in users. it�*s official name is xylazine and it�*s used by vets as a tranquilizer. it�*s not approved for use in humans. it�*s being mixed with heroin or fentanyl by drug dealers
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in the states and now the death of a 43—year—old man here is the first in the uk to be linked to the "zombie" drug. these six—day old pictures from tiktok appear to show the impact of xylazine—laced drugs on the streets of philadelphia. the opioid addiction crisis on america�*s streets isn�*t new, but to cut costs and increase the potency of their narcotics, drug dealers first began to mix heroin with the powerful and often lethal anaesthetic drug fentanyl and now increasingly with the non—opioid animal tranquilliser xylazine. the white house drug tsar has come out strongly in response. it is a dangerous and deadly drug for people. it�*s been approved for veterinary medicine but not for human beings. and when it�*s used, as we have seen in increasing amounts of finding it on almost all 50 states, and we�*ve also seen an increase in deaths associated
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with xylazine and fentanyl. to the extent that some areas of the country we have an over 1100% increase in those deaths in recent years. according to us drug enforcement administration figures from march, xylazine is making the deadliest drug threat the united states has ever faced even deadlier. the dea seized xylazine and fentanyl mixtures in 48 out of 50 states and 23% of seized fentanyl powder and 7% of fentanyl pills contain xylazine. the presence of the drug was found in 800 us drug overdose deaths in 2020. in 2021 it was more than 3000. that said, the overall number of overdose deaths in the states has flattened off in the last year, according to the us centers for disease control, both the predicted amount and the reported number. that doesn�*t alter the fact both are at all—time highs of well over
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but what people remember is the awful tissue necrosis the drug can cause in humans. it�*s given a grotesque turn to an already devastating human crisis among some of the poorest and most vulnerable in america. let�*s speak to melanie beddis, director of programmes at savage sisters recovery in philadelphia, who was dependent on this drug and has been clean for two years. caroline copeland is a lecturer in pharmaceutical medicine at king�*s college london and director of the national programme on substance abuse deaths. melanie, you were dependent on heroin and fentanyl and then your drug supply was contaminated with tranq. tell our audience in the uk what effect it had on your body. so i what effect it had on your body. sr i think the what effect it had on your body. sry i think the most important thing was that... i wasn�*t aware that i was doing tranq, i didn�*t know what
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xylazine was and that it infiltrated the drug supply. it made things worse in so many more aspects. you talked about the wounds. i had a few of those. i had access to a shower so i could keep both of my arms but a lot of the people i came into contact with aren�*t so lucky. so contact with aren't so lucky. so --eole contact with aren't so lucky. so people are actually having limbs amputated because if you inject this cocktail of drugs it can lead to these wounds and if they aren�*t cleaned, then... then that�*sjust these wounds and if they aren�*t cleaned, then... then that�*s just a nightmare. 50 cleaned, then. .. then that's 'ust a nightmare.— nightmare. so it's a big misconception - nightmare. so it's a big misconception that - nightmare. so it's a big misconception that you | nightmare. so it's a big - misconception that you can only nightmare. so it's a big _ misconception that you can only get the wounds from injecting. it doesn�*t really matter, your mode of consumption. it�*s not the injection site causing the wound, it is due to construction preventing blood flow and stopping any wound on your body from scabbing and healing and that turns into an ulcer that infected
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and begins to spread. bud turns into an ulcer that infected and begins to spread.— turns into an ulcer that infected and begins to spread. and are the dru: and begins to spread. and are the drug users — and begins to spread. and are the drug users in _ and begins to spread. and are the drug users in states _ and begins to spread. and are the drug users in states across - and begins to spread. and are the | drug users in states across america actively now seeking out tranq and if they are, why? i actively now seeking out tranq and if they are. why?— if they are, why? i can speak to philadelphia — if they are, why? i can speak to philadelphia at _ if they are, why? i can speak to philadelphia at least. _ if they are, why? i can speak to | philadelphia at least. everybody that i serve on a daily basis is seeking the tranq, not because they want it necessarily but because they are now becoming dependent on it. if you were to take a person who is chemically dependent on xylazine and give them regular heroin or regular fentanyl, because they are chemically dependent, it isn�*t touching them and not doing anything for their withdrawal. so they needed xylazine feel better.— xylazine feel better. understood. caroline, xylazine feel better. understood. caroline. how— xylazine feel better. understood. caroline, how dangerous - xylazine feel better. understood. caroline, how dangerous is - xylazine feel better. understood. caroline, how dangerous is this i caroline, how dangerous is this tranquilizer when mixed with heroin and fentanyl? 50. tranquilizer when mixed with heroin and fentanyl?— and fentanyl? so, it's a sedative dru: so and fentanyl? so, it's a sedative drug so it _ and fentanyl? so, it's a sedative drug so it can — and fentanyl? so, it's a sedative drug so it can slow _ and fentanyl? so, it's a sedative
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drug so it can slow the - and fentanyl? so, it's a sedative drug so it can slow the heart - and fentanyl? so, it's a sedative | drug so it can slow the heart rate and reduce — drug so it can slow the heart rate and reduce the breathing rate and if you are _ and reduce the breathing rate and if you are layering that with other opioids— you are layering that with other opioids you're taking at the same time _ opioids you're taking at the same time it's— opioids you're taking at the same time it's increasing the risk of overdose _ time it's increasing the risk of overdose. is time it's increasing the risk of overdose-— time it's increasing the risk of overdose. ., ., ., ., overdose. is there an antidote to tran: ? overdose. is there an antidote to tranq? unfortunately _ overdose. is there an antidote to tranq? unfortunately not. - overdose. is there an antidote to tranq? unfortunately not. there| overdose. is there an antidote to i tranq? unfortunately not. there is an antidote — tranq? unfortunately not. there is an antidote for _ tranq? unfortunately not. there is an antidote for opioids _ tranq? unfortunately not. there is an antidote for opioids that - tranq? unfortunately not. there is an antidote for opioids that can - tranq? unfortunately not. there is an antidote for opioids that can be | an antidote for opioids that can be given— an antidote for opioids that can be given but— an antidote for opioids that can be given but that's not going to be counteracting the effects of the xylazine. it counteracting the effects of the x lazine. . , ., ., xylazine. it emerged recently that a british man from _ xylazine. it emerged recently that a british man from solihull_ xylazine. it emerged recently that a british man from solihull died - xylazine. it emerged recently that a british man from solihull died with l british man from solihull died with tranq inside his body come away xylazine inside his body. he was a drug user. he died in may of 2022 and we only found out in the last week or so. why?— and we only found out in the last week or so. why? and we only found out in the last weekorso.wh? , , week or so. why? when somebody dies of a drug-related _ week or so. why? when somebody dies of a drug-related death _ week or so. why? when somebody dies of a drug-related death they _ week or so. why? when somebody dies of a drug-related death they are - of a drug—related death they are referred — of a drug—related death they are referred to a coroner and the death has to— referred to a coroner and the death has to he _ referred to a coroner and the death has to be investigated, which takes time _ has to be investigated, which takes time the _ has to be investigated, which takes time. the inquest into this person's death— time. the inquest into this person's death was— time. the inquest into this person's death was concluded in august last year and _ death was concluded in august last year and that's when it was reported to the _ year and that's when it was reported to the programme i ran, looking at
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trends _ to the programme i ran, looking at trends in _ to the programme i ran, looking at trends in drug—related deaths. unfortunately my programme doesn't have that _ unfortunately my programme doesn't have that much funding and we receive — have that much funding and we receive hundreds of reports a month and it— receive hundreds of reports a month and it took— receive hundreds of reports a month and it took us until november to get to this _ and it took us until november to get to this august death. we moved quickly— to this august death. we moved quickly and rotate case report within— quickly and rotate case report within ten days of realising we had this death — within ten days of realising we had this death but it was only reported a couple _ this death but it was only reported a couple of— this death but it was only reported a couple of weeks ago because academic— a couple of weeks ago because academic publishing takes time, unfortunately. is it academic publishing takes time, unfortunately.— unfortunately. is it likely there could be more _ unfortunately. is it likely there could be more deaths - unfortunately. is it likely there could be more deaths in - unfortunately. is it likely there could be more deaths in this i unfortunately. is it likely there - could be more deaths in this country involving tranq that we don�*t yet know about? in involving tranq that we don't yet know about?— know about? in my opinion, absolutely. _ know about? in my opinion, absolutely. xylazine - know about? in my opinion, absolutely. xylazine isn't. know about? in my opinion, - absolutely. xylazine isn't routinely screened — absolutely. xylazine isn't routinely screened for, either by coroners in their— screened for, either by coroners in their investigations or still living people _ their investigations or still living people that have reported to a&e. if you can't _ people that have reported to a&e. if you can't test, you can't detect. in the programme i run we have 85% of coroners— the programme i run we have 85% of coroners reporting to us but some of the few_ coroners reporting to us but some of the few that — coroners reporting to us but some of the few that don't report to us are around _ the few that don't report to us are around the — the few that don't report to us are around the birmingham area so they could _ around the birmingham area so they could he _ around the birmingham area so they could be other deaths that have been
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reported _ could be other deaths that have been reported and concluded at inquest but because we haven't received them, _ but because we haven't received them, we — but because we haven't received them, we don't know the extent of them, we don't know the extent of the problem. them, we don't know the extent of the problem-— them, we don't know the extent of the roblem. ~ , ., ., ,, ., the problem. why do we need to know? we need to know _ the problem. why do we need to know? we need to know in _ the problem. why do we need to know? we need to know in order— the problem. why do we need to know? we need to know in order to _ the problem. why do we need to know? we need to know in order to support - we need to know in order to support the people _ we need to know in order to support the people using these drugs getting the people using these drugs getting the health care that they need. the dru- the health care that they need. the drug users— the health care that they need. the drug users themselves, if they aren't— drug users themselves, if they aren't aware they are using these drugsm — aren't aware they are using these drugsm i— aren't aware they are using these drugs... i highly doubt that this person— drugs... i highly doubt that this person for— drugs... i highly doubt that this person for example new that the heroine — person for example new that the heroine they had purchased had tranq in it. heroine they had purchased had tranq in it and _ heroine they had purchased had tranq in it and so— heroine they had purchased had tranq in it. and so the users have to know and the _ in it. and so the users have to know and the people treating them as welt _ and the people treating them as well. y ., ., , ., ., ., and the people treating them as well. y ., ., ., ., ., well. melanie, how did you manage to net off this well. melanie, how did you manage to get off this grotesque _ well. melanie, how did you manage to get off this grotesque mixture - well. melanie, how did you manage to get off this grotesque mixture of - get off this grotesque mixture of drugs? mr; get off this grotesque mixture of dru:s? y , , .,, get off this grotesque mixture of dru:s? y, , .,y , get off this grotesque mixture of dru:s? y, , drugs? my story is a little different. _ drugs? my story is a little different. i— drugs? my story is a little different. i was _ drugs? my story is a little different. i was actually i drugs? my story is a little - different. i was actually arrested and i was incarcerated for a period of 3—4 months and the short of it is that i had no choice. ijust had to detox, cold turkey, and it took me a while to get through it. what
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detox, cold turkey, and it took me a while to get through it.— while to get through it. what was it like, auoin while to get through it. what was it like. going cold _ while to get through it. what was it like, going cold turkey? _ while to get through it. what was it like, going cold turkey? the - while to get through it. what was it like, going cold turkey? the mostl like, going cold turkey? the most ainful like, going cold turkey? the most painfulthing _ like, going cold turkey? the most painful thing i've _ like, going cold turkey? the most painful thing i've ever _ like, going cold turkey? the most painful thing i've ever been - painful thing i�*ve ever been through. i�*ve struggled with substance abuse for ten years, and xylazine was the worst thing i experienced a.— xylazine was the worst thing i experienced a. what effect did it have on your _ experienced a. what effect did it have on your body? _ experienced a. what effect did it have on your body? it _ experienced a. what effect did it have on your body? it is - experienced a. what effect did it have on your body? it isjust - experienced a. what effect did it have on your body? it isjust like have on your body? it is 'ust like constant nausea fl have on your body? it is 'ust like constant nausea and _ have on your body? it isjust like constant nausea and vomiting i have on your body? it isjust like. constant nausea and vomiting and when i say constant it is over two, three weeks. not sleeping, chills, sweating. it three weeks. not sleeping, chills, sweatinu. , . three weeks. not sleeping, chills, sweatinu. y yy three weeks. not sleeping, chills, sweatinu. y ., ., , sweating. it is having the worst flu ou've sweating. it is having the worst flu you've had — sweating. it is having the worst flu you've had multiplied _ sweating. it is having the worst flu you've had multiplied by _ sweating. it is having the worst flu you've had multiplied by ten. - sweating. it is having the worst flu you've had multiplied by ten. i- you�*ve had multiplied by ten. i wonder if you could paint a picture, you talk about philadelphia but tell us about the kind of people this is affecting now, the kind of areas it is affecting. it�*s affecting now, the kind of areas it is affecting-— is affecting. it's affecting everybody- _ is affecting. it's affecting everybody. it's _ is affecting. it's affecting everybody. it's affecting | is affecting. it's affecting i everybody. it's affecting the is affecting. it's affecting _ everybody. it's affecting the people everybody. it�*s affecting the people who use it and the people that don�*t use it. we are screaming up and down that it�*s a public health crisis at this point. we have people with
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open, infected wounds walking the streets because they have nowhere to go. they are treated in hospitals, rehabilitation centres aren�*t updating withdrawal protocols and they don�*t have access to things like a shower or rest room which are basic human rights. 50 like a shower or rest room which are basic human rights.— like a shower or rest room which are basic human rights. so what would be our basic human rights. so what would be your message — basic human rights. so what would be your message to _ basic human rights. so what would be your message to people _ basic human rights. so what would be your message to people in _ basic human rights. so what would be your message to people in this - your message to people in this country, especially public health officials and also to people who use drugs? officials and also to people who use dru:s? , , ., ., ., drugs? definitely get ahead of it the best you _ drugs? definitely get ahead of it the best you can. _ drugs? definitely get ahead of it the best you can. you _ drugs? definitely get ahead of it the best you can. you know, - drugs? definitely get ahead of it i the best you can. you know, we've the best you can. you know, we�*ve known about xylazine in america for a few years now and now the white house wants to say something about it because it�*s affecting different areas but unfortunately we could have got ahead of it better and know more about it. i tell people who use drugs, always test your supply. i�*m not sure what resources you guys have but we have fentanyl and xylazine test strips and you can
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test the substances you are using and you can know what you are putting in your body. it is to be important to note that reversing an overdose is different with xylazine. the team carries oxygen tanks but we can�*t stress enough how important rescue breathing is when risking overdose because it slows the respiratory system down and people are having trouble breathing. i5 are having trouble breathing. is melanie right that we have to get ahead of this in this country? weill. ahead of this in this country? well, of course. ahead of this in this country? well, of course- if _ ahead of this in this country? well, of course. if we _ ahead of this in this country? well, of course. if we had _ ahead of this in this country? well, of course. if we had one _ ahead of this in this country? well, of course. if we had one death - ahead of this in this country? well, of course. if we had one death then i of course. if we had one death then i highly— of course. if we had one death then i highly doubt that was a single hatch _ i highly doubt that was a single batch of— i highly doubt that was a single batch of one dose that's here in this country. it's probably more widespread than we realise but because — widespread than we realise but because of limitations of testing and reporting, we just don't know the extent— and reporting, we just don't know the extent of the problem. and reporting, wejust don't know the extent of the problem.- the extent of the problem. thank you both very much _ the extent of the problem. thank you both very much for _ the extent of the problem. thank you both very much for talking _ the extent of the problem. thank you both very much for talking to - the extent of the problem. thank you both very much for talking to us - the extent of the problem. thank you both very much for talking to us on i both very much for talking to us on newsnight. we really appreciate it.

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