a protracted energy crisis, and massive inequality. my guest today is the leader of the biggest opposition party, the democratic alliance, john steenhuisen. could he become south africa's first white leader since apartheid? john steenhuisen, welcome to hardtalk. great to be with you, stephen. well, it's great to be here in cape town. let's start with a very simple question. when you said not so long ago, "there is a changing

of the guard coming in south africa, the anc�*s decline is terminal. it's just a matter of how fast," did you really believe that? of course i believed it then. i think it's a fair assessment about where the anc find themselves — in the last local government elections, in 2021, they, for the first time in post—democratic south africa, lost their majority and fell below 50%. this obviously allied with the fact that our economy's not growing, we've got 30 million people living in poverty, 12 million people unemployed, and loadshedding, rolling blackouts, which have reached into every home and switched off the lights, switched off our factories, and switched off our economy. south africans are realising that if they don't change the way they vote, south africa is going to end up in a very, very dark place, and it's going to be poverty and inequality deepening. well, in that bleak context that you've just outlined, with the unemployment, what they call here "loadshedding", the rolling power cuts, the massive

economic problems, how is it that the main opposition party, your party, the democratic alliance, is actually finding its vote share going down? well, i think that one needs to look, particularly at the last election, the 2021 election, as somewhat of an outlier election, given the fact it took place in the midst of covid. it took place after serious bouts of litigation. but if one looks at how the da has grown since then, up to 27% in the polls, one looks at some of the by—election results in places like khayelitsha... well, i did look at the recent by—election results, because polls are one thing, but actual results are another. and in a whole host of by—elections, you actually haven't managed to take seats from the anc. in ten recent by—elections, the anc retained seven key seats. so, you're not making the breakthroughs that you have promised for years. but i think you've got to look at the growth of the opposition there — so let's take this khayelitsha by—election, which took place in overstrand, the da went from 12% in 2021

to over 30% in this election. the langa by—election, where the da increased its percentage by around 7—8%, the opposition is growing and the anc share of the vote is retreating. i'm going to be blunt with you. isn't the problem that the democratic alliance isn't making a big breakthrough? isn't the problem in the end, mr steenhuisen, down to you? no, it's not. you're the wrong leaderfor this party? absolutely not, and 83% of the party who've just voted me and re—elected me as another term leader would disagree. i think that we've seen a stabilisation of the da under my leadership. we got 19% in the last general election. i inherited a party sitting at 16% in the polls. the party is now sitting 25—27% with nobody talking... well, you're a man who likes polls. do you know what your current approval rating is amongst black voters? i don't watch those types of opinion polls.

well, i'll tell you, it's stuck at around 7% approval amongst black voters. that is a fundamental problem for you. well, i think that, stephen, you've got to look at the votes that people cast for a party. the majority of people who vote for the da are not white south africans, and it's broken up roughly into thirds — a third black voters, a third white voters, and a third mixed—race voters. i understand that. and that is why... i think it is fair to say you are still seen by many south africans, particularly black south africans — the very big majority of people in this country — you are seen in the democratic alliance as a fundamentally white party. and the reason is pretty obvious. for example, 62% of your current parliamentarians are white, in a country where just 7%, or 8% of the overall population is white. this is a structural problem for you, is it not? i would disagree with you fundamentally.

i think we have by far the most diverse party caucus out of any party represented in parliament. and you turn on the parliamentary channel to see the parties to the left and right of the da are virtually monochromatic. and there in the da — white, black, indian, mixed race, hindus, christians, muslims, and jews coming together around a common set of values and principles. but here's the thing, there are over 600 parties on the ballot paper in south africa. the majority of them are led by black south africans. why is it, then, that a party led by a white south african is sitting at 22—25% in the polls? people are looking beyond race towards competence, ability to get things done, and being able to deliver. that's the game in town, and that's going to be the game at the next election, particularly with the spectre of loadshedding on the horizon. mpho phalatse was the mayor ofjohannesburg — she was ousted quite recently, but she's a medical doctor, she has a track record of doing

amazing work in the poorer parts ofjohannesburg. she ran against you as leader. she is a black woman. you are a white man. does it never enter your head that perhaps your party would have greater appeal if somebody like mpho phalatse was leading the democratic alliance? but we've been down that road before, stephen. and you interviewed mr maimane when he was the leader of the democratic alliance, and we ended up with the worst result we'd had at a national election since then, which shows that race doesn't matter. what matters is the ability to be able to make a compelling argument to people. i was also elected — i defeated ms phalatse with a very, very big majority at a congress that was overwhelmingly made up of delegates who are not white south africans. they were looking for the person who could best land the party's message and get thejob done. in a way, though, this isn't

just about the personalities. it is about the message the democratic alliance is sending to the people of south africa. if i may paraphrase your message, it seems to be you want a post—racial form of politics, and you do not want, for example, economic management to include concepts like affirmative action, a government intervening to make sure that black south africans, for example, are fully represented in corporate boards or at every level of the business structure of south africa. many black people, even inside your own party, fundamentally disagree with that notion of a party which, in a sense, is race—blind. key figures in your party who disagree with that position have felt forced to leave. for example, herman mashaba — he was a very successful democratic alliance politician. i believe he was mayor

ofjohannesburg. he left the party saying, i quote, "i cannot reconcile myself with a group of people who believe that race is irrelevant in the discussion of inequality and poverty in south africa." that's very different to what he says in those various books that he's written, and his now professed commitment to non—racialism. people come and go in politics, the policies and values remain. 0ur alternative to these race—based policies of the anc, which have only delivered widening inequality, greater unemployment, and a worse deal for black south africans, is focusing on poverty and focusing on lifting people out of that poverty and into some form of opportunity by focusing very, very clearly on the opportunity side of the economy. the anc�*s focus over the last 30 years has been on the trying to manage inequality of outcomes. it hasn't worked, and they've neglected the opportunity to the point where eight out

of ten grade four students at the age of ten cannot read. taking the government out and allowing the market, as you seem to want to do, allowing the market to sort of naturally find a new equity in this country, where's your evidence that would work? but that's not what the da's proposition is at all. 0ur proposition is there does need to be intervention, and there do need to be policies that focus on redress. we come from a divided past with an abhorrent history of racial segregation and division, and a lack of opportunity. you would be crazy not to have policies that focused on that redress. 0ur redress policy is our focus on the area where they are needed the most, which is poverty. and if you focus your policies there, 99.87% of the people who are beneficiaries of those are black south africans. africa confidential, a respected analytical magazine, describes your party as, quote, "ultra light on policy." they don't see the specifics that can help you actually get south africa of the profound economic mess it's in today. well, they're clearly not

reading the policies properly. they're available, we have the most comprehensive policy suite out of any party. but i would say, go beyond the policies and look at where it really matters — where we govern. look at what we've been able to do in the western cape. 98% of all net newjobs in south africa in the last quarter were created here in the da—run western cape. the other eight provinces accounted for 2%. the da knows how to get the economy working, we know how to get people intojobs, and the numbers prove that. unemployment here in the western cape is the lowest. in da—run midvaal, in gauteng, it is the lowest in gauteng. where the da governs, our policies and clean, accountable government get people into work, but most importantly, deliver services. yeah, and also, it should be said about cape town, a paper written a couple of years ago by three academics

described cape town as widely considered to be south africa's most segregated city. not true. that's the democratic alliance at work. no, that's not true. and if you... well, it is true. i'm just quoting a piece from that academic paper. that's fundamentally not true. and if you look at africa check, which did a far more recent study, shows that, in fact, cape town is the least unequal. now, look, all south african cities, still subject... i've just spent days actually recording in khayelitsha. it's a sprawling township which is home to, we don't even know how many people because it's impossible to say for sure, but more than one million people, and they are living in absolute poverty. they are living in shacks, they don't have access to clean water, they don't have indoor toilets. and, perhaps most fundamentally of all, many of them do not havejobs, or any prospect of ever getting a job. that's right here in cape town. but here's the thing, stephen.

there's no south african city that is immune to the inequality, both spatially and economically, that existed during apartheid. but as president biden said, "show me your budget, and i will show you what your priorities are." cape town has just passed a record infrastructure budget. 75% of that budget is going directly into addressing service delivery backlogs. the basket of free basic services to assist people, like free water, free electricity, zero rates is far more comprehensive than any other city in the country. are we there yet in dealing with it? absolutely not. but we're much further down the line than a country or city likejohannesburg or ethekwini, or east london, or any one of the other cities. what people want most of all, and you've alluded to it already, is power. correct. now, president ramaphosa says he is busting every sinew to ensure that he addresses the loadshedding crisis. he's appointed a special energy and electricity minister

to work night and day on it. he, for a while, declared a state of disaster, which allowed him special powers. we now know that he's commissioning three turkish powerships to be moored off the coast of south africa to provide new sources of energy. you've opposed, consistently opposed all of these special measures that ramaphosa is taking. well, i think that because they're not designed to deal with the problem, they're designed to provide more opportunity for anc looting and corruption to take place. what we have been doing is demonstrating the alternative, that we can have clean, renewable energy in south africa, and not only can we meet this challenge, we can become a world leader in clean, renewable energy. and we're doing it here in the city of cape town, and in the province of the western cape. this city will be the first city to be loadshedding—free. we already have incentivisation for solar panels, where people can feed electricity back into the grid and be reimbursed for it.

we're putting investment into lithium ion batteries and storage facilities... but why oppose powerships, which literally can sit off the coast and provide enormous new source of energy, electricity for the people who, right now, are sitting every evening in candlelight? we oppose them because the 20—year contract that this government wants to sign with those... no, you don't know that. you say they want a 20—year contract. the government hasn't yet shown you the contract that it's hoping to sign. yes, of course they have. gwede mantashe made those contracts public, which is why there was such a public outcry about it, and why the environmentalists and others are opposing them. they wanted a 20—year contract at a fixed price. it doesn't make economic sense for south africa. we should rather be harnessing the 8.5 billion rand that's been provided by western countries to be able to allow us to make this transition into renewable energy, and become a world leader in this particular field. you constantly talk about the degree of corruption that the anc government has

brought to south africa. does it concern you that corruption is also a problem in those areas controlled locally by your democratic alliance party? for example, corruption watch says it's received 125 corruption reports concerning cape town in less than a decade. your party is very good at telling the anc it's corrupt. you're not so good at dealing with the allegations, the sleaze inside your own party. that's completely not true. and i think that it is exactly the juxtaposition with the way we handle those matters when they occur, to the governing party that shows the difference. there is no organisation in the world — i would advance the bbc itself — who can insulate it against people who join the organisation and don't live up to the values and principles. i think you judge an organisation on how it deals with those when it happens. none of those individuals remain in office. they've been dealt with decisively, they've been moved out — unlike the president, who still has the architects

of state capture sitting around the cabinet table with them. we take action, and i think we should be judged on that. you have also made a big stand on foreign policy. you have accused cyril ramaphosa of cosying up to vladimir putin. you say you would take a very different approach. you made a very high—profile trip last year yourself to kyiv. is your message to south africans that they need to reorient south africa's foreign policy away from the brics, that sort of close alliance with russia, china, india, brazil, and cosy up to the united states? well, we need western countries to continue to invest in south africa. the uk, the united — sorry, the european union, and the united states account for 77% of all foreign direct investment into south africa.

juxtapose that with the 6.2% from china and russia. it makes no economic or pragmatic sense for south africa to be aligning itself with groups when our overwhelming benefits come from the western countries. what's clearly... well, i don't know if you've seen polls, but there are plenty of polls over the last year which have asked south africans, "who do you sympathise with more — russia, china, the brics, or the united states?" and a majority actually say the bric nations. well, i've seen the economist poll which says very clearly that 71% of south africans do not support this government's position on the conflict in ukraine and russia. and i think that that is very, very clear that the majority of south africans are freedom—loving people who want to be on the right side of this particular argument. and siding with war criminals and with a country that accounts for less trade

than one of our less—developed neighbours doesn't make sense. the government here has launched an investigation into an allegation, which originally came from the us ambassador in south africa, that a russian ship had docked in simonstown, a south african port, and allegedly had been loaded with weapons coming from south africa. the government has denied that it knew this was happening, but it has launched an investigation. if it turns out that weapons were loaded onto that vessel, what do you think that should mean for the anc government? well, i think it should at the very least mean individualised sanctions against those involved. but i think there'll be serious geopolitical consequences for africa and south africa if those allegations prove to be true. i happen to think they are true. that we have been supplying arms to russia. and i believe that the nexus between the russian money and the anc is what lies at the heart of that. let's return, before we end, to domestic politics. you are, i noticed from your

office, you've got a lot of pictures ofjohn f kennedy. he is, of course — one of the things he's remembered for is his commitment to the moon—shot, getting the united states to the moon. you have used that phrase "moon—shot" and talked about how important it is to you, in your strategic vision, to develop a moon—shot pact of all the main opposition parties to bring down the anc. i would put it to you that since you launched that moon—shot, it's been something of a damp squib. most of the senior leaders of opposition parties are saying they are not ready tojoin a pact led by you in the democratic alliance. well, first of all, the pact won't be led by me. we're just creating the enabling environment for the pact to come together. and quite the opposite — we've had several very good meetings with 11 party leaders around the country who have indicated a commitment to getting to a convention

where we can decide about how we'll work together. the next election will come probably in about a year from now, the obvious way in which you in the democratic alliance could get your hands on at least some power is to accept that you may have to join a coalition with either the anc — maybe, you could do that — or maybe withjulius malema's radical economic freedom fighters party. are you prepared to say to me that you would consider, in certain circumstances a coalition with either? no. the non—anc—eff opposition vote wasjust 15 points short of being able to come up with a majority. my focus over the next 15 months is going to be on the moon—shot pact, getting like—minded opposition... could you ever work with the anc? no, i don't think we could work with the anc, not in their current form. and again, my focus is on completely... no, i know what your focus is on, but in the end, you will have to accept what the voters say. the anc is still likely to emerge as, by far, the biggest party.

well, i think we'd have to see what those cards said at the time, but if that was the case, we would obviously have to go back to our voters and ask them how they want us to proceed. but right now, my focus is on uniting the opposition, getting everybody to work together to build a new majority that'll get the anc out of power, and to get south africa onto a new trajectory of prosperity and hope. right, you make that sound like a positive agenda. actually, it seems to me you're peddling a very negative and fear—filled agenda, because you seem to be telling the south african people if they vote either for the anc or the economic freedom fighters in the next election, to use your own phrase, they are going to create "a doomsday scenario which will make the collapse of zimbabwe look like a dress rehearsal and leave all south africans destitute". that's fear mongering. that's not fear mongering. it's telling people the honest truth. if one looks at the eff�*s policies and everywhere they've been applied in the world, whether it's venezuela, zimbabwe, or cuba, they've only caused further unemployment, further misery, further hunger,

and further poverty. you talk about "plunging the country into ethnic and racial conflict the likes of which it has never witnessed before" — don't you need to be a little bit careful about your language? no... you are suggesting that south africa right now is on the very edge of the most frightening abyss. i would say absolutely, that's being truthful to voters. because if the anc and the eff do tie up, and having seen how extractive the eff have been on the anc from the opposition benches, dragging them down the rabbit hole of expropriation without compensation, nationalisation of the reserve bank, all of these ridiculous, barmy policies — imagine how terrifying it'll be when the anc would rely on them for their votes to be able to secure a majority. i just want to be clear what you're saying — we saw, less than two years ago, we saw terrible street violence in south african cities. durban in particular

was very badly hit. we saw dozens of people killed. we saw guns being used on the streets. are you suggesting to me that you believe right now, in the political atmosphere we have in south africa, south africa is very close to seeing notjust that level of street violence, but something much worse? i'm saying to you that if the anc and eff policies continue to be applied and get accelerated down the socialist marxist chavez road that the eff will insist upon, poverty is going to get deeper, hunger is going to increase, unemployment is going tojump dramatically as disinvestment and capital flight takes place in south africa. that can only make the situation more febrile in south africa than it has ever been before. at that point, we have to end, butjohn steenhuisen, thank you very much for being on hardtalk. thank you.

hello they are. the weather for half term week continues to frustrate some but glorious fathers. west has certainly been best on wednesday was the warmest day of the year so far scotland just shy of 25. once again along the east coast of scotland and england that was cool and grey at times. that is because the high—pressure centre to the far north—west with the wind direction swinging round clockwise, always going to be driving in cloud of the chile north sea. thursday we start off grey and gloomy, damp after some

drizzle but the sunshine will come through and into the afternoon once again we have those contrasts. south west england and wales, the west midlands and south coast, dry, sunny and warm. east anglia and east of the pennines cool and breezy at times. more sunshine west of the pennines and into northern ireland and for western scotland once the temperature peaks in the low 20s. so really a tale of two halves. where we have the best of the sunshine thatis we have the best of the sunshine that is where we will have the highest of the pollen, grass pollen as well at this time of year. low to moderate especially on the east coast. high pressurejust drift moderate especially on the east coast. high pressure just drift a little further east than we see subtle differences with that high but it will mean more sunshine coming through on friday. slightly drier air and lighter winds and a good deal of dry, settle and sunny weather. it will still feel cooler along the exposed east coast but

sunshine to go with it which will hopefully compensate and once again sheltered western areas will see highs into the low 20s. the weekend sees the high—pressure continue to push steadily eastwards so subtle differences. if you are heading to the beaches, west is best once again with the temperature into the low 20s but along the east coast we have sunshine as we head into the weekend and we still continue to see the breeze coming from the north—east, and guess what? as we head into early next week, very little in the way of change, largely dry with the warmest weather out to the west, take care.

welcome to newsday, reporting live from singapore, i'm monica miller. the headlines... a deal on the us debt system deal is nearly in place. ukraine says 19,000 children have been taken from the country since the start of the york war. former british prime minister borisjohnson says