on the issue for mckinsey and company in new york, and caroline farberger, who came out as a transgender woman, and now runs one of europe's leading technology investment companies. also on the show, a story of how one of the world's most powerful businessmen was brought down when a newspaper published details of his private life, outing him as a gay man. we talk pride, power, and coming out with the former chairman of bp, lord browne. wherever you'rejoining me from around the world, once again, a big hello and a warm welcome to the show. underrepresented, underemployed and underpaid. that's the experience of transgender people in the workplace, even in countries where their rights at work are protected by law.

transgender and nonbinary people are those who identify with a different gender to the sex that they were assigned when they were born. here in the uk alone, more than a quarter of a million people identify as transgender. that's according to the official government census. and in the united states, it's estimated more than 2 million people identify as transgender. just recently, uganda became the latest country where strict or stricter anti—lg btq legislation is being introduced, laws which, in this case, include the death penalty. but even in america, transgender adults are twice as likely to be out of work. when they do find a job, they earn a third less than non—transgender people with the same qualifications. and more than half say that they're not comfortable being out as transgender at work. that's according to a report by the global consultancy group mckinsey and company. i'm going to catch up with the author of that report in just a minute. but before that, we're going to catch up with melissa ingle. she's a transgender woman that we spoke to after she lost herjob, along with thousands of other colleagues, when elon musk took over at twitter. she works in san francisco,

certainly one of the most open places in the world, and she works in data science, so she has skills that are in high demand. but even then, job hunting has been complicated. it's very stressful, because it's this unknown x factor. yes, people are very, very accepting here. but when they see you, they have a preconceived notion about the kind of person you're going to be. and it's...you never know for sure. people see my name, they see melissa ingle, they think i'm going to appear to be a non—trans woman, and then, you know, when that camera clicks on, i'm just never sure how they're going to react. and most were just fine, but it's something that you can see some of them take in with their eyes and make a judgment, and you're never really sure, did this factor in or did it not?

in a way, i sympathise. people are terrified. they don't want to say the wrong thing. make a wrong move. "if i hire a trans person, am i going to have "to walk on eggshells?" and it's this thing that we're all kind of figuring out. i drove myself crazy. am i being... are they not hiring me because i'm transgender, even unconsciously? i currently have a job. i was able to get a job in about two months, which, you know, ithink is pretty extraordinary. frankly, there aren't a lot of people who can do what i can do. and if you're in a less privileged position, how does that affect you? when i've seen in people's eyes reactions, even if it's temporary, to cover up their sort of sudden reveal of who i am, i do really worry about people who are in less privileged positions than me.

melissa ingle there, catching us up on her story. you know, according to my next guest, creating morejobs and equal pay for transgender workers could add $12 billion a year to consumer spending in america alone. that's part of this report on transgender people at work that she wrote with other colleagues for the global management consultancy mckinsey and company. jill zucker, a real pleasure having you on this show. and jill, let me start with this, because we've just heard from melissa and her story about looking for work, but i want to ask you this more broadly. what did you find? what sort of stigma do transgender people face when they're looking for work? you know, it's really difficult. we did this research and we asked people that exact question. and so many transgender people say, even in the interview process, it's difficult. why is that? we ask people's gender on application forms, even for any type of employment. we ask often for birth names that people aren't comfortable using, and so people feel they get outed even

in an hr process before the interview even begins. and what kind of difficulties, jill, do transgender people face once they actually have a job? people report feeling unsafe at work, and so, if you feel unsafe at work, it's very hard to be at your best. they also report being an "only" too often. "i'm the only person like me in this environment, "and therefore i'm constantly questioning whether "or not i fit in." there's much more concern about promotion and whether or not i can get promoted. they report not seeing people above them in the hierarchy that are like them, and so it's hard to imagine advancement. and so if you don't feel safe in the workplace, it's really hard to be at your best. if there's no one else like you around you in the workplace, it's very hard to feel confident every single day when you come to work. and, you know, unfortunately

through our research, we had lots of qualitative quotes and people said, you know, "i can't be out at work, i just am not feeling safe enough "to be out at work, so i'll stay closeted with my true identityjust "so i can get through the day." and jill, i've got to ask you this, because there's a lot of focus on bathrooms, and it may seem really silly, but it does keep coming up, so i'm wondering, what's the best way, do you think, forfor a company to handle that issue? i would just say that bathrooms can be easily dealt with by having a gender neutral bathroom. that's what we've done at mckinsey. we have male, female and gender neutral bathrooms on every floor. if there's a company that doesn't have the three sets of bathrooms, then make them all gender neutral and just be open about letting people choose to use the facility, the bathroom that best suits their identity. jill, what about the other side of the desk for

managers and colleagues? melissa, who we've spoken to earlier, said managers and hirers feel that they might be walking on eggshells. in other words, they may feel that they don't want to discuss gender identity. what's the best way for them to be a supportive manager or co—worker or employee? there's a lot of education as part of this. i mean, even when we wrote our research, you might have noticed we had almost a page of a glossary there. and it takes time to learn all the different terms. i do think there's more we can do to educate employees, as we do on other topics, through kind of online learning and alike. we also can be up front about our pronouns so people don't need to guess. we can just make it standard for people to put their pronouns on their virtual zoom screens, or teams, to put it on their email, so that everyone feels that they can just be up front about

who they are, and therefore you don't need to ask. jill zucker, thanks very much for the report and your time. really appreciate it, and i'll talk to you soon. thank you. up until she was 50 years old, my next guest lived as a man and rose through the ranks to become one of scandinavia's leading business executives. over the past five years, she has transitioned, and today she's the boss of the venture capital com pa ny wellstreet. caroline farberger, an absolute pleasure having you on the show. and caroline, let me start with this. how did you start to come out in a professional context? well, i realised i was transgender only at a very mature age, at the age of 50. and by then i realised in order to come out, it needs to be professionally packaged. so i decided that a year ahead in time i would come out as caroline. so i had a detailed planning to a transition date when i came out overnight from one day to the other.

when you say you're 50 years old and you realised you were trans, what is that feeling? how does that come about? all it is is, since childhood, i felt an affection for femininity. but given that i'm now 55 years of age, i grew up without the benefit of internet and that knowledge pool that is out there. so i thought that was something wrong with me, and i held it back and promised never ever to tell anyone but rather be the good boy that my parents expected. but in a mature age, i thought that maybe i actually need to investigate that affection for femininity to see if it was important to me. and yes, i realised that i am a woman in my gender identity, that makes me transgender. i was fearful of being bullied or being harassed, losing my socioeconomic position as a respected ceo in the business community, losing my family and what that would do to me, maybe

become an outcast. so, i was fearful, but that i'd just need to at least give it a shot, give my very best shot to live life as who i am and make a detailed planning of it. and caroline, when you started coming out, i've got to ask, how did your colleagues and employees react? with great respect and sympathy. when i told them my come out story, they were all supportive and really wanted to make my transition a success. i've received 100% support, not only from my colleagues, but also my family and friends and people, people on the street. so not one, not that i would want you to have experienced it, but not one bit of kickback? not immediately, and certainly not from people i would meet. but i've come to understand that i'm privileged since

i have a business card as a ceo. other people in my country may not be as fortunate because those who bully others are typically not bullying people who might beat them back. would you have been as successful in terms of rising to where you are now in your career if you had maybe come out earlier? i'd like to think that thought, but i'm unfortunately not so sure, because i realise now that rising through the ranks of the corporate ladder as a man, as a white heterosexual man, i've enjoyed a certain set of privileges that i otherwise wouldn't have had. so unfortunately, maybe not. and caroline, you live and work in a very progressive society. that is sweden, of course. what's the difference when you travel for work? well, in my immediate surroundings in northern europe, i don't expect or see

any serious differences. but for example, if i would travel to florida postjuly ist, when new legislation comes into effect, and if i would visit a women's bathroom in a public building, i would risk being arrested for trespassing, punishable up to one year in prison. and if i would travel to the middle east, it would be unlawful for me to basically be on stage at all. so there are restrictions now. and of course, with your experience, i mean, younger people, if they want to come out or they're thinking about coming out, they need role models, right? yeah. i mean, one of the reasons why i've chosen to be open in media and visible on tv shows is to show people that, yes, you can be transgender and the non—normative, and still have a career,

and still be respected in business life. that's why i'm here. and let me end on this. i mean, do you see a day when we no longer make programmes or talk about discrimination in this area? i would love that day to come, that being transgender and ceo would be a non—issue. i would cherish that day in the future. caroline farberger, i really appreciate your time and thank you for sharing your story with us. good luck with everything, and i'd love to check in with you soon. thank you. ok, so far in the programme, we've been looking at the issues transgender people face in the workplace and the boardroom. my next guest is a gay man who lived his life in the closet because his mum said he shouldn't make himself into a minority. while he was the boss of oil giant bp, he fought and lost a battle with a british newspaper which wanted to out him and publish details of his private life. he lost that battle, and he left hisjob at bp earlier than expected, and since then, he's been on a mission to persuade other high profile lgbtq executives to come out, even writing

a book called the glass closet about why it's good for business. lord john browne, always a pleasure, my friend, having you on the show. and john, let's start with this, because you weren't just reticent not to reveal your sexuality, you fought very hard to keep it out of the public. why did you do that? well, it was a long time ago. i was outed in 2007, and i obviously was in the closet for the whole of my life up until then, which was getting on for 60 years. i did it because of the...my background. my mother, who was a holocaust survivor, always told me, "never tell anyone a secret because they will always "use it against you, and never be an identifiable member "of a minority, because when the going gets tough, the majority "always hurt the minority."

and from her experience, from my observation, she wasn't wrong. so that was one reason, and the other reason was just the atmosphere at the time. i think there was an awful lot of anti—gayjokes. there was a lot of anti—gay sentiment. certainly things were changing, this wasn't the �*80s... cos i was going to say, we're talking 2007, so it doesn't feel that long ago. but it felt quite lonely in business, i have to say. this is at the top. there weren't...| couldn't identify, i think i could identify probably nobody at the time who was an out gay ceo, possibly one. but there were no role models and there was no sense that there was any form of companionship, if you will, in the professional classes that i was involved in.

looking back at it now, do you regret it? do you either regret not coming out earlier, or do you regret that you were forced to to come out? well, i don't actually have any regrets. i mean, because i always looked forward, again, something i always believe in, that you look forward rather than backwards. but yes, would it have been better to have been out? of course it would. if the circumstances were right and if i could have done it, i probably should have done it. but, you know, when you're in the closet and you're convinced that everyone around you is hostile to one of your particular aspects of your life, a very important, deep aspect of your life, you persuade yourself that you need to stay in the closet and secret, and if you came out, the world would collapse around you. of course, that actually didn't happen because the world changed over the time i was in the closet, and i'd forgotten. i didn't see that it changed. i thought it was the same.

let me ask you this, john, because just recently, very recently, uganda introduced some of the strictest anti—lgbto legislation in the world. we know us presidentjoe biden has called for it to be immediately repealed. and uganda is a country with, you know, pretty decent oil reserves. so do you think oil companies should be doing something about this? i mean, i don't know, i'm just trying to work out what sort of action should oil companies take against a country that introduces such, you know, anti legislation like that? well, i can't talk for the companies. they make their own decisions. but actually, i do think it's completely wrong, what uganda's done. it's a bad example. it's a bad set of laws,

and it defies any view people have of the right handling of human rights. totally wrong. so i think if i were in business there, i would have to consider my position, and actually make sure first my team was safe, and secondly ask myself why i should be doing business there. yeah. and probably pull out. right, so, ok, let'sjust be clear, because if you are the boss of an oil major today, you, quite possibly, you'd boycott uganda? but i think you have to be careful. you have to look to see what you can...the status in all the countries that you operate in. there are plenty of things going on that you have to ask yourself, "can i be there and help change it?" or, "am i there in the face of things changing in "the wrong direction?" right. and there, i think you have to makejudgements. there's nothing black and white about anything like this that's full of ambiguity, and i think you've got to make good, balancedjudgements.

but it's wider than uganda. in some, like the gulf states, you know, being gay is not just illegal, it can be punishable by death. you've got the others like nigeria, it's illegal, places in russia, even the united states in some way feel like they're almost going backwards. so i'm just wondering, is it practical for anyone senior in the oil industry to be out, to be openly gay? it'd be hard to operate, wouldn't it? well, i think it's possible and it's desirable today to be out, if you can. the most important thing is not to say to people they should come out and then expose them to personal danger. that would be a terrible thing to do in business for sure. so, i think that bosses can come out, they will have a bit of a security blanket around them because of their position, and people will maybe talk

to them and not acknowledge anything about them. and indeed, ithink that is the case. it will be ignored as something that, you know, we don't talk about in polite society. "let's talk business, but forget about your own personal life?" exactly. and john, specifically, if we look at russia, when you wrote this book, it didn't go down quite well, i mean, you copped a bit of backlash from, well, from president putin. i did, because i said that it was clear to me that gay people should be sent to russia to work inside foreign companies, provided that they understood that they had to abide by the laws of the country to which they were being sent. it was very clear, why would you discriminate otherwise? that caused quite an outcry from the kremlin at the time, saying that i was meddling in the internal affairs of russia.

i wasn't doing that. i was making a clear point that being gay should be not a barrier to going anywhere, so long as you understand that you need to abide by the laws, and the company makes it very clear to you that to be safe you must abide by those laws. and the headlines in the russian press was...? oh, "browne promotes gays," or something to the effect. right. john, as a gay man in western europe, i mean, it was a struggle to to be out, but what about what about transgender, nonbinary people? how important do you think it is for them to have senior role models in the business? because you mentioned that before you came out, you had pretty much no role models, no mentors of that sense. so i think it's very important to have role models.

it's easy to talk to people about what they should do and what we should be doing. it's doesn't really cut too much ice with people. i think you have to demonstrate by saying, "this is what happens "to someone who is transgender, who's gay, who is out, "who's progressing in my company, and this is where they get to." so positive role models are very important. the discussion on transgender, on sexual identity is, i think, a very continuous discussion which has not reached maturity yet. i think it's about ambiguity. and i was always reminded that life is full of ambiguity. sexuality is to do with ambiguity, and it's very difficult to define it as a result of that. but i think most importantly, whatever we say about definitions and so forth, it is about including people and being really inclusive. you've got to be inclusive, and to use a phrase which is overused, but i deeply

believe in, to treat people with respect and dignity, so that they don't feel that they're second class, they don't feel they're being exploited, and they don't feel that they're being patronised. i think, to my mind, that's really important. and john, let me end on this. looking ahead, looking ahead five years from now, do you think we will see more lgbtq+ executives open? i hope so. the glass half full part is coming back. i really want this to happen.

there's no reason why it can't happen. maybe not globally. it's not going to happen globally. that's a good point. but it's going to happen in some parts of the united states, in europe, even in sport, you know. so i think that these are important aspects of change. there was always the statement, you know, that football players were all straight, except when they retired and then some were gay. it's changing, you know, and that is really an important aspect of change, to see an area where it was regarded as wholly unacceptable, changing. business is easier. i think we should see more gay ceos, more lgbtq+ ceos. over time, maybe five years could be possible. ten years, i'm sure. lord john browne, always a pleasure, my friend. thanks for your time. much appreciated. well, that's it for this week's show. i hope you enjoyed it. don't forget, you can keep up with the latest on our global economy on the bbc website or the smartphone app. of course, you can also follow me on twitter, tweet me up, i'll tweet you back.

you can get me at @bbcaaron. thanks for watching. i'll see you soon. bye— bye. hello there. this fine, settled, dry and sunny spell set to continue throughout this weekend and indeed into much of next week as well. so largely dry and settled thanks to high pressure. always warmest and sunniest. out towards the west. little bit cool and cloudy at times. closer to the north sea coast, but many places will stay dry. bar the odd shower, the center of our high pressure system sitting out towards the northwest the uk so will always have this east northeasterly airflow which will be fresh over the next few days across the south east corner. and it will continue to drag in low cloud into eastern england and the midlands for the early part of sunday. northern eastern scotland also cloudier, but clearer skies further west, temperatures four to nine degrees. so sunday morning, we start off a little bit gray. central and eastern areas

is the cloud should burn back to the coast. elsewhere, plenty of sunshine, just the chance of an afternoon shower developing across scotland, northern ireland, very isolated. mind you, most places will stay dry. and again, the best of the temperatures towards the north and the west, bit cooler along north sea coast and then through sunday night with that breeze in place across east, south east england will drag that low cloud back westwards across much of central, southern and eastern england. also northern and eastern scotland, clear skies out towards the west and temperatures again ranging from around four to nine degrees for many of us. we do it all again. start the new week monday. a bit of a grey start central east now as that cloud slowly burning back to the coast, a bit more breezy again across the south east, just packing temperatures back, the chance of an isolated shower again for scotland, northern ireland, but very isolated most places dry top temperatures again up to close to the mid 20s, but generally the low 20s here cool along north sea coast. same too for tuesday, a bit more cloud across eastern scotland, eastern england with more of a breeze here. that's the sunshine towards the south and the west again, the low 20s at best, but low to mid or high teens along some north sea coast,

then some subtle changes. towards the end of the week, this area of low pressure will hurtle towards our shores, throwing up some showers to southern and western areas. but with a change in wind direction coming in from the south or southeast, we could import some warmer air off the near continent for the end of the week. certainly across parts of england, so many places will be dry, but showers could increase across southern and western areas towards the end of the week, but it'll be noticeably warming up.

live from washington, this is bbc news. a handshake but no talks yet between china and the us, at asia's biggest security summit. this nearly 300 people are now known to have died, and a thousand are injured, in india's deadliest train crash this century. recep tayyip erdogan is sworn in for a third term as turkey's president, while his new cabinet could mean a u—turn on inflation. great to have you with us. asia's biggest annual security conference is coming to a close

with a speech by china's minister of defence. tensions between the us and beijing have dominated