voice-over: this is bbc news. we'll have the headlines and all the main news stories for you at the top of the hour, straight after this programme. welcome to hardtalk. i'm stephen sackur. is run�*s islamic republic has been in firefighting mode for months. trying to damp down the flames of mass protest sparked by the killing of a 22—year—old woman in police custody —— iran's. her name was mahsa amini. at least, that was her persian name. her kurdish birth name

was gina. the story of iran's internal discontent is incomplete without an understanding of iran's kurdish population. my guest is abdullah mohtadi, leader of the komala party of iranian kurdistan. is this a fight for rights or independence? abdullah mohtadi, welcome to hardtalk. ., ~ , c, abdullah mohtadi, welcome to hardtalk. ., ~ c, c, hardtalk. thank you for having me. it is hardtalk. thank you for having me- it is a _ hardtalk. thank you for having me. it is a great _ hardtalk. thank you for having me. it is a great pleasure - hardtalk. thank you for having me. it is a great pleasure to - me. it is a great pleasure to have you — me. it is a great pleasure to have you on _ me. it is a great pleasure to have you on the _ me. it is a great pleasure to have you on the show. - me. it is a great pleasure to have you on the show. i - me. it is a great pleasure to i have you on the show. i began by referring there to the tragic death of musah harmony.

would you say that her death last september in custody inside iran has changed the political dynamic inside iran? —— mahsa amini. it political dynamic inside iran? -- mahsa amini.— political dynamic inside iran? -- mahsa amini. it has because on the 16th _ -- mahsa amini. it has because on the 16th of _ -- mahsa amini. it has because on the 16th of september, - -- mahsa amini. it has because on the 16th of september, she l on the 16th of september, she was declared dead in the hospital. the day after, on the 17th, there was a funeral in her hometown in the province of kurdistan and there are four curtis provinces and —— kurdish provinces and it was a spontaneous protest movement erupted in her hometown and it soon spread to the capital city of the province and two days after that on the 19th, it was after that on the 19th, it was a general strike called by the cooperation centre of the

kurdish political parties which was fully observed. and after that, they called for a peaceful — evening demonstrations, and it was a resounding victory because in all, in dozens of cities in all four kurdish provinces, there were huge demonstrations that soon spread to all of iran. that's what i wanted to pick up with you, your contention as it is very important to understand that the immediate response, the immediate public protest to what happened to mahsa, and we can also call herjina, her kurdish name, was also a kurdish name, was also a kurdish response? we kurdish name, was also a kurdish response? we start the revolution _ kurdish response? we start the revolution of _ kurdish response? we start the revolution of the _ kurdish response? we start the revolution of the movement. i revolution of the movement. many people still call it revolution because it is about the regime change, the toppling of the regime, what about reform. anyway, we provided the main slogan women, life and

freedom. main slogan women, life and freedom-— main slogan women, life and freedom. ~ ., ~ ., , ., ., freedom. we all know the slogan but surely the — freedom. we all know the slogan but surely the point _ freedom. we all know the slogan but surely the point of _ freedom. we all know the slogan but surely the point of the - but surely the point of the slogan is it was co—opted by the persian language and the mass demonstrations across iran from tehran to esfahan and so many other cities were chanting it in person, not kurdish. doesn't matter. of course, people chant in the language they familiar with. but the content was the same. we provided this main slogan and we remained the stronghold of the revolution. we kept the momentum of the revolution for months. ~ , ., ., months. well, you call it a revolution. _ months. well, you call it a revolution. the _ months. well, you call it a revolution. the truth - months. well, you call it a revolution. the truth is - months. well, you call it a i revolution. the truth is some 8.5 months on, there has been no revolution. indeed, the protests are dying down on the streets of most iranian towns and cities. that's the reality. you are right. it has been died down. but everybody thinks that

this is the calm before a new wave of storming in iran. the iranian regime _ wave of storming in iran. the iranian regime does - wave of storming in iran. the iranian regime does not think that and, in fact, we have senior officials saying that they believe the number of hard—core protesters never rose beyond about 500,000. that's a very significant number but if we remember iran's population is currently about 18 million then it's not quite as great and an influential hardline supporter of the regime says let's face it, most of the protesters were simply youths who were deceived through social media. that's the official position now. no, that's not _ official position now. no, that's not true. _ official position now. no, that's not true. the - official position now. no, | that's not true. the social, economic and political reasons behind these protests are well—known from the people. people who were dissatisfied with the corruption, with mismanagement, high inflation rate, suppression, unvarying —

unbearable discrimination against women by imposing lifestyles to the young generation that they refused to obey, so the reasons are... the reasons you _ obey, so the reasons are... the reasons you have _ obey, so the reasons are... the reasons you have just given a fascinating and obviously, they would be aggressively disputed by the tehran regime, but my interest is those reasons for protest you've just outlined don't include going out on the streets, demanding greater rights for the kurdish people. maybe the kurdish ness of the operations micra for origins of this protest movement, as you have put it, have been lost? no. in fact, have put it, have been lost? no. infact, the have put it, have been lost? no. in fact, the kurds came to this revolution hoping that while they are a broader democracy in iran, at the same

time, their rights will be preserved, rights will be recognised by the society, by the new constitution, by the new system in iran.- the new constitution, by the new system in iran. you have said about — new system in iran. you have said about the _ new system in iran. you have said about the origins - new system in iran. you have said about the origins the - said about the origins the protest movement were ta ken said about the origins the protest movement were taken on board by the islamic republic military forces in the sense that they focused a lot of their most repressive activities on the kurdish region and, indeed, reached across the border into iraq, where your komala party has its headquarters. how badly damaged have you been in the last eight or nine months by this new, aggressive, assertive iranian military action?— military action? take the iranian military - military action? take the iranian military threats i iranian military threats against our bases and our families and our settlements very, very seriously, but this is not the first time that they threat our or threaten us or they attack us. the latest was

on the 28th of september. they wanted to distract the attention of the movement and they want to lure the kurdish groups into an armed struggle, which we resisted.— which we resisted. yeah, but what they — which we resisted. yeah, but what they did _ which we resisted. yeah, but what they did do _ which we resisted. yeah, but what they did do was - which we resisted. yeah, but what they did do was they i which we resisted. yeah, but i what they did do was they send, and i am looking at their reports from official renia media, precision guided metres, assault drones that hit targets belonging to your party and other kurdish iranian parties. how can you withstand that? they killed 17 people, including a pregnant woman and her unborn child, and injured dozens of people, but we have been accustomed to these kinds of attacks by the iranians. 0f of attacks by the iranians. of course, we — its, we pay a price for that but we have no

choice, except to resist. yeah, the problem — choice, except to resist. yeah, the problem you _ choice, except to resist. yeah, the problem you have - choice, except to resist. yeah, the problem you have is i choice, except to resist. yeah, the problem you have is that i the problem you have is that you are dependent upon the hospitality, if i can put it that way, of araque and in particular the kurdish regional government in iraq and it does seem in recent months, because of the pressure, the military pressure, being applied by iran that the kurdish regional government in iraq has been agreeing with tehran that you must be expelled, your operations disbanded inside iraq. operations disbanded inside ira: . ~ operations disbanded inside ira. _ . ., ., operations disbanded inside iran. . ., , operations disbanded inside iran. ., ., , ., iraq. we have not been engaged in any kind _ iraq. we have not been engaged in any kind of— iraq. we have not been engaged in any kind of armed _ iraq. we have not been engaged in any kind of armed struggle i in any kind of armed struggle or sending infiltrating armed teams into iran, so this is a lie. ~ ., ., teams into iran, so this is a lie. . ., ., , teams into iran, so this is a lie. ~ ., ., , ., ., lie. well, hang on, it is not a lie. well, hang on, it is not a lie that you _ lie. well, hang on, it is not a lie that you keep _ lie. well, hang on, it is not a lie that you keep so-called i lie that you keep so—called peshmerga areola fighters in bases inside iraq. micra for guerrilla fighters.— guerrilla fighters. only because _ guerrilla fighters. only because exclusively i guerrilla fighters. 0nly| because exclusively for guerrilla fighters. only i because exclusively for our self—defence because if you cannot protect yourself, they come for you.—

come for you. how many peshmerga _ come for you. how many peshmerga do _ come for you. how many peshmerga do you i come for you. how many| peshmerga do you have? come for you. how many l peshmerga do you have? i come for you. how many - peshmerga do you have? i cannot tell ou, peshmerga do you have? i cannot tell you. but _ peshmerga do you have? i cannot tell you, but enough _ peshmerga do you have? i cannot tell you, but enough to _ peshmerga do you have? i cannot tell you, but enough to defend i tell you, but enough to defend ourselves, our bases in iraq and kurdistan. —— iraqi kurdistan. during the past three decades, more than 400 people, our members and other parties members, were assassinated, poisoned, killed, kidnapped by iranian agents. you have to protect yourself. you have to protect yourself. you have to have the means to protect yourself. but this is not intended for an armed struggle against the iranian regime, and they know it, and we have not provoked them at all. ., _ , we have not provoked them at all. ., , ~ ., , all. you say they know it but they appear _ all. you say they know it but they appear to _ all. you say they know it but they appear to regard i all. you say they know it but they appear to regard you i all. you say they know it butj they appear to regard you as all. you say they know it but i they appear to regard you as a terrorist organisation. now, backin terrorist organisation. now, back in october of 2022, it was reported from iran and iraqi sources that it was an agreement reached that you would be forced out of your basesin would be forced out of your bases in kurdish areas of

araque and —— iraqi and the representative of the iraqi kurds in government in tehran, he said iranian kurdish dissident groups must now evacuate from our region near the border with iran stop if they refused to comply, he said, iran has told us it will, quote, consider other options to end their presence. this quote, consider other options to end their presence.- to end their presence. this is not what _ to end their presence. this is not what we _ to end their presence. this is not what we hear _ to end their presence. this is not what we hear from i to end their presence. this is not what we hear from the i not what we hear from the people in charge of the k rg kurdistan region of araque. what do they say to you? == what do they say to you? -- araque- _ what do they say to you? -- araque- they _ what do they say to you? » araque. they say they want to put limits on our activities, our presence, but not expelling us. y our presence, but not expelling us. , ., _ our presence, but not expelling us. do they mean by limits? they want — us. do they mean by limits? they want to _ us. do they mean by limits? they want to guarantee i us. do they mean by limits? they want to guarantee that j they want to guarantee that micra fought want guarantees that we won't go into iranians soil and we accepted that. in fact, we have not been engaged

in that for many years now, more than 25 years.- in that for many years now, more than 25 years. would you sa that, more than 25 years. would you say that. in _ more than 25 years. would you say that. in a — more than 25 years. would you say that, in a sense, _ say that, in a sense, effectively iran's military operations and its threats, to put it bluntly, have neutralised your activities inside iraq?— neutralised your activities inside ira? ~ ., �* ., inside iraq? we don't, we are inside iraq? we don't, we are in a good _ inside iraq? we don't, we are in a good friendly _ inside iraq? we don't, we are in a good friendly relations i in a good friendly relations with k rg. we respect each other, do not interfere in each other�*s domestic affairs. as i told you before, we have not been engaged in any military or armed struggle against iran for many, many years, even before these limitations.— these limitations. let's talk now about _ these limitations. let's talk now about the _ these limitations. let's talk now about the efforts i these limitations. let's talk now about the efforts that l these limitations. let's talk i now about the efforts that you have been involved with personally to create a sort of united front of iranian opposition groups. capable of presenting a coherent alternative to the islamic

republic regime. now, there was an agreement drawn up in the united states, in georgetown, and you've become known as the georgetown group. it included notjust georgetown group. it included not just your own georgetown group. it included notjust your own komala party but the group led by the exiled son of the former schar of iran and a host of others with political aspirations but all in exile and you come up with a joint declaration talking about your commitment to freedom and democracy in iran and then within weeks, the georgetown group started to fall apart. it wasn't very impressive, was it? people in the streets, activists, protesters, both inside and outside the country, wanted us to present, to form a united, a strong united opposition coalition. so, we

responded positively to their demand with good intentions. the aim was to form a strong, united opposition coalition to give people hope in iran, give a sense of direction to the movement and also represent the iranian aspirations in their fight for democracy to the international community. well, ou see international community. well, you see the _ international community. well, you see the intentions - international community. well, you see the intentions were i you see the intentions were good but the reality was somewhat less impressive. you signed this sort of pact in february but by april, if i may just continue, by april, one of the key leaders of this georgetown group had actually left. what happened?- georgetown group had actually left. what happened? there were all kinds of _ left. what happened? there were all kinds of pressures. _ left. what happened? there were all kinds of pressures. it - left. what happened? there were

all kinds of pressures. it is - all kinds of pressures. it is not easy to stand the pressure for everybody. not easy to stand the pressure for everybody-— for everybody. isn't the truth ou for everybody. isn't the truth you didn't — for everybody. isn't the truth you didn't have _ for everybody. isn't the truth you didn't have a _ for everybody. isn't the truth you didn't have a shared i you didn't have a shared vision, for a future in iran? for example many of the people around rehsa palavi would like to see the return of the monarchy, there are people in your group were more concerned with safeguarding kurdish rights, through a highly federalised future system which is an anathema to many uranian nationalists, and when you put these people together there isn't a clear and unified position?— isn't a clear and unified position? isn't a clear and unified osition? ~ ., , ., isn't a clear and unified osition? ~ ., , position? we were able to sign a charter which _ position? we were able to sign a charter which was _ position? we were able to sign a charter which was reasonably good and balanced, where we declared our programme for democratic —— democratising iran, new system, new constitution, new referendum for the people to decide the future of their own government,

and also, minority, ethnic, religious rights. it sounded religious rights. it sounded pretty impressive - religious rights. it sounded pretty impressive on i religious rights. it sounded| pretty impressive on paper. religious rights. it sounded i pretty impressive on paper. it was very progressive. but my point is it didn't last more than two months until several of the key people who signed it walked away. it is just not credible and iranians inside and outside the country see that in the end the opposition remains divided? but that in the end the opposition remains divided?— remains divided? but the necessity _ remains divided? but the necessity for _ remains divided? but the necessity for a _ remains divided? but the necessity for a united i necessity for a united opposition is still there. and it is a burning question. you have to fight for that. maybe one or two of your efforts fail, or does not succeed as you wanted. but the necessity is there and the efforts should continue. ., ~' , continue. one of the key question _ continue. one of the key question is, _ continue. one of the key question is, of _ continue. one of the key question is, of particularj question is, of particular relevance to you in the kurdish — uranian community is what is your long—term agenda? do you,

ultimately see yourselves as part of a federalised iran, free, democratic but with much of the power decentralised to your own particular region, in your own particular region, in your case, or is your long—term aspiration, an independent kurdistan?— aspiration, an independent kurdistan? , , kurdistan? historically, kurds were denied _ kurdistan? historically, kurds were denied the _ kurdistan? historically, kurds were denied the right - kurdistan? historically, kurds were denied the right to i were denied the right to self—determination, but our programme and on other parties as well, as a secular, democratic, federal iran, where the rights of kurds and other ethnic minorities are respected and safeguarded, notjust by paying lip service by being enshrined in the constitution. the future inside iran, not separate from iran? inside iran, separate from iran? inside iran. yes- _ separate from iran? inside iran. yes- i'm _ separate from iran? inside iran, yes. i'm very - separate from iran? inside iran, yes. i'm very mindful separate from iran? inside i iran, yes. i'm very mindful of our iran, yes. i'm very mindful of your own _ iran, yes. i'm very mindful of your own personal—

iran, yes. i'm very mindful of your own personal history, i iran, yes. i'm very mindful of. your own personal history, your father was intimately involved in that short lived moment in 1946 with the kurds in iran thought they had created their own state of mohammed bad. in the soviet union at the time appeared to sign off on that but by the end of 1946 the shah of iran had completely destroyed that reality. but your father wanted an independent kurdistan? yourfather wanted an independent kurdistan? i do your father wanted an independent kurdistan? i do not den the independent kurdistan? i do not deny the legitimate _ independent kurdistan? i do not deny the legitimate aspirations l deny the legitimate aspirations and dreams of the kurdish people, and i do not decide for them, future generations but our programme for the foreseeable future, for this generation, and we are responsible for this generation, is a federal state where the rights of kurds are preserved within iran, within a democratic, secular iran. that is a very _ democratic, secular iran. that is a very interesting _ democratic, secular iran. that is a very interesting phrase i is a very interesting phrase used for the foreseeable

future, i wonder what uranian nationalists, people who live far, far away from the north—west of lorraine from the kurdish region is what they would make of that phrase, for the foreseeable future. because it sounds like it could be a resubmitted —— recipe for long—term instability in iran? no, you respect the diversity in iran, diversity of ethnic and religious and cultural and linguistic diversity, in fact you guarantee territorial integrity of iran, you guarantee that people live together, we have to accept each other. we have to strike a delicate balance between the aspirations and the rights of the kurdish people on the one side, and at the same time, you have to consider the concerns of other people in iran, the persian speaking people, the people who live in and other

cities. so, so i think respecting diversity is the key to stability in the future of iran. , , ., . ~' to stability in the future of iran. , ., ., iran. just one quick point on this broad — iran. just one quick point on this broad coalition - iran. just one quick point on this broad coalition of- iran. just one quick point on j this broad coalition of exiled opposition groups, that you say must come together to present an alternative vision of iran's future, can it include the son of the former shah, rehsa palavi, who some in your community accuse basically having a prejudicial attitude towards the kurds and their aspirations? can it also include the mujahideen who many both in iran and in the west regard as somebody politically beyond the pale, their leader? the mood —— the mujahideen have to accept and abide by the rules of democratic game in iran, they have two open up and

be ready to co—operate with others. be ready to co-operate with others. �* , ., ., be ready to co-operate with others. �* ., , ., , others. but you would be ready to work with — others. but you would be ready to work with them, _ others. but you would be ready to work with them, would i others. but you would be ready to work with them, would you? despite their reputation, despite all the alliances they formed in the past with saddam hussein, the allegations they oppressed the kurds of iraq, you would consider working with the mujahideen? l’m you would consider working with the mujahideen?— the mu'ahideen? i'm not sure the mujahideen? i'm not sure they would — the mujahideen? i'm not sure they would co-operate - the mujahideen? i'm not sure they would co-operate with i they would co—operate with anybody. they would co-operate with an bod ., , ., they would co-operate with an bod ., , . ., anybody. just a quick thought on rehsa palavi _ anybody. just a quick thought on rehsa palavi and - anybody. just a quick thought on rehsa palavi and whether| anybody. just a quick thought i on rehsa palavi and whether he is a credible partner? he on rehsa palavi and whether he is a credible partner?— is a credible partner? he was considered — is a credible partner? he was considered a _ is a credible partner? he was considered a credible - is a credible partner? he was considered a credible partner but he quit, and i am not sure next time he will want to be included in any coalition. before the end let's talk about diplomacy, you spend a lot of your time on the road in washington and brussels and all sorts of political capitals trying to support both for the kurdish — uranian position but the widest sense of an opposition to the islamic

regime. the iranians say actually, you have become a puppet of israel and that there is evidence you sent agents, working for israel to iran on sabotage missions. is this true? ., �* , sabotage missions. is this true? ., h ., true? no, it's not true the uranian — true? no, it's not true the uranian regime _ true? no, it's not true the uranian regime have i true? no, it's not true the i uranian regime have always tried to portray the uranian kurds is violent secessionists, agents of foreign countries, this is a lie. they accuse everybody who ever is dissident, who ever has a critical point about the regime, as being agents of israel and the united states and britain, of course. [30 israel and the united states and britain, of course. do you have any _ and britain, of course. do you have any talks _ and britain, of course. do you have any talks with _ and britain, of course. do you have any talks with israeli i have any talks with israeli officials?— have any talks with israeli officials? ha. never? have any talks with israeli officials?- never? officials? no. never? never. as far as i know- — officials? no. never? never. as far as i know. what _

officials? no. never? never. as far as i know. what about i officials? no. never? never. as far as i know. what about other| far as i know. what about other associates _ far as i know. what about other associates in _ far as i know. what about other associates in your _ far as i know. what about other associates in your party, - associates in your party, kemal?— associates in your party, kemal? ., ., �* ~' associates in your party, kemal? ., ., �* ~ kemal? no, i don't think so. you were — kemal? no, i don't think so. you were in _ kemal? no, i don't think so. you were in washington i kemal? no, i don't think so. you were in washington last| you were in washington last october and you said i am worried about the pressures that are exerted against us inside iraq and we have discussed that, you said i would very much like the united states to intervene, really? you want us intervention? after everything that has happened in recent years. everything that has happened in recent years-— recent years. no, no, not nurran— recent years. no, no, not nurran not— recent years. no, no, not nurran not materially. i recent years. no, no, notl nurran not materially. you recent years. no, no, not- nurran not materially. you want them to help — nurran not materially. you want them to help you _ nurran not materially. you want them to help you in _ nurran not materially. you want them to help you in iraq, - nurran not materially. you want them to help you in iraq, howi them to help you in iraq, how would that look to iranians or iraqis? would that look to iranians or irauis? , iraqis? yes, we need the international— iraqis? yes, we need the international protection l international protection because iran is killing us, our families,, targeting our families, , targeting our schools families,, targeting our schools and residents. but you can't afford — schools and residents. but you can't afford to _ schools and residents. but you can't afford to be _ schools and residents. but you can't afford to be seen - schools and residents. but you can't afford to be seen as i can't afford to be seen as puppets of washington? hat puppets of washington? not -u- ets puppets of washington? not puppets but _ puppets of washington? tint puppets but protected by the international coalition who are in iraq, what is wrong with that? we have no other protection in the k rg is not

strong enough, to protect us. so, yes we want the international, the protection by the international coalition, who are anoraks. in the united states. ., . . . who are anoraks. in the united states. ., ., ., ., ., states. you are a veteran of this diplomatic _ states. you are a veteran of this diplomatic and - states. you are a veteran of this diplomatic and political| this diplomatic and political effort to change the reality in iran, you have been at it for many years you earlier talked to me about the revolution but i said to you it is a revolution that has not come to pass yet. do you think it will come to pass in your lifetime? i hope so. i am sure that we will be witnessing new and greater waves of protest, eventually a revolution, and i hope it will take place in my lifetime. �* , ., ., lifetime. abdullah mohtadi, thank you — lifetime. abdullah mohtadi, thank you very _ lifetime. abdullah mohtadi, thank you very much - lifetime. abdullah mohtadi, thank you very much for i lifetime. abdullah mohtadi, i thank you very much forjoining me on hardtalk. thank you very much for 'oining me on hardtalki thank you very much for 'oining me on hardtalk. thank you for havin: me on hardtalk. thank you for having me- _

hello there. very little change with the weather for this upcoming week. it's going to remain mostly dry and settled with plenty of sunshine as our area of high pressure continues to dominate. so always warmest and sunniest as it has been for the last couple of weeks across central and western areas. a bit cooler, cloudier, breezier or further east. but there's a chance of a few showers starting to push up into southern areas by the end of the week into next weekend, courtesy of this area of low pressure moving up from biscay and iberia. but in the short—term, plenty of dry weather to start the new working week. a bit of low cloud, which will burn back to the coast from the midlands into eastern england. and it could stay quite cool along north sea coast, more of a breeze in the southeast. slim chance of a shower in scotland and northern ireland. otherwise it's a warm, sunny day once again. the highest of the temperatures out west.

now, monday night that low cloud again in the north sea rolls back westwards. much of the northern east of england, the midlands, perhaps even east wales by the end of the night. clea rest skies, western scotland, northern ireland. temperatures falling between four and nine degrees. tuesday then, a bit of a grey start for east wales, the midlands, eastern england. but that cloud will start to melt away as the strong june sunshine gets going again. it will stay quite cool and may be grey along the north sea coast. more of a breeze in the southeast. the best of the sunshine and the warmth in the north and the west. and just a very slim chance of a shower in scotland and northern ireland. wednesday, we do it all again. a bit of cloud towards central and eastern areas which will tend to burn back for the coast. same too for north east scotland. most of the sunshine towards the south and the west. we will see highs 22—23 degrees, otherwise it is the low to mid teens along the north sea coast. and we maintain that north—easterly breeze across the east and the southeast on thursday. so, again, a bit more cloud here, cooler by the north sea coast.

further west, it is going to be mostly dry with plenty of sunshine once again. now, as we head into friday although it's a similar story we see this area of low pressure encroach into the south—west, more of a breeze as well and we could see some high cloud, a few showers as we head into the weekend. one thing is certain, we will start to draw warmer air off the near continent and a south southeasterly wind. so the southern half of the country, particularly southern england into south wales will start to warm up. we could be into the upper 20s celsius in the south. there is the threat of a few showers.