this is bbc news. we'll have the headlines and all the main news stories for you at the top of the hour as newsday continues, straight after hardtalk. welcome to hardtalk. i'm stephen sackur. iran's islamic republic has been in firefighting mode for months, trying to damp down the flames of mass protest sparked by the killing of a 22—year—old woman in police custody. her name was mahsa amini — at least, that was her persian name. her kurdish birth name wasjina. the story of iran's internal discontent is incomplete without an understanding of iran's kurdish population.

my guest is abdullah mohtadi, leader of the komala party of iranian kurdistan. is his a fight for rights orfor independence? abdullah mohtadi, welcome to hardtalk. thank you for having me. it's a great pleasure to have you on the show. i began by referring there to the tragic death of mahsa amini. would you say that her death last september in custody inside iran has changed the political dynamic inside iran? it has because on the 16th

of september, she was declared dead in the hospital. the day after, on the 17th, there was a funeral in her hometown of saqqez in the province of kurdistan — there are four kurdish provinces in iran — and it was a spontaneous protest movement erupted in saqqez, her hometown, and it soon spread to sanandaj, the capital city of that province. and two days after that, on the 19th, it was a general strike called by the cooperation center the kurdish political parties which was fully observed. and after that, they called for a peaceful — evening demonstrations,

and it was a resounding victory because in all — in dozens of cities in all four kurdish provinces, there was huge demonstrations that soon spread to all of iran. ah! well, that is exactly what i wanted to pick up with you. so, your contention is that it's very important to understand that the immediate response — the immediate public protest to what happened to mahsa — and we could also call herjina, her kurdish name — it was very much a kurdish response? it was. we sparked the revolution, or the movement. many people still call it revolution because it's about the regime change, the toppling of the regime, not about reform. anyway, we provided the main slogan, jin, jiyan, azadi — woman, life and freedom. well, we all know that slogan but surely, the point of that slogan is it was co—opted by the persian

language and the mass demonstrations across iran, from tehran to isfahan to so many other cities were chanting it in persian, not in kurdish. but it doesn't matter. of course they — people chant in the language that they are familiar with. but the content was the same. we provided this main slogan and we remained the stronghold of the revolution. we kept the momentum of the revolution for months. well, you call it a revolution. the truth is, some 8.5 months on, there has been no revolution. indeed, the protests are dying down on the streets of most iranian towns and cities — that's the reality. you are right. it has been died down. but everybody is — in — thinks that this is a calm before a new wave of storm in iran. well, the iranian regime doesn't think that. in fact, we've got senior officials saying that they believe that the number

of hardcore protesters never rose beyond about 500,000. now, that's a very significant number but if we remember number, but if we remember that iran's population is currently about 80 million, then it's not quite as great and hamidreza taraghi — an influential hardline supporter of the regime — he says, "let's face it — most of the protesters were simply "youths who were deceived through social media". that's the official position now. no, that's not true. the social, economic and political reasons behind these protests are well—known from the people — people who were dissatisfied with the corruption, with mismanagement, high inflation rate, suppression, unbearing — unbearable discrimination against women by imposing lifestyles to the young generation

that they refuse to obey, so the reasons are... well, all of those reasons you've just given are fascinating and obviously, they would be aggressively disputed by the tehran regime, but my interest is that those reasons for protest you've just outlined don't include going out on the streets, demanding greater rights for the kurdish people. maybe the kurdishness of the origins of this protest movement, as you have put it, have been lost? no. in fact, the kurds came to this revolution hoping that while they are for a broader democracy in iran, at the same time, their rights will be preserved, their rights will be recognised by the society, by the new constitution, by the new system in iran. what you have said about the origins

of the protest movement were taken on board by the islamic republic military forces, in the sense that they focused a lot of their most repressive activities on the kurdish region — and, indeed, reached across the border into iraq, where your komala party has its headquarters. how badly damaged have you been in the last eight or nine months by this new, aggressive, assertive iranian military action? we take the iranian military threats against our bases and ourfamilies and our settlements very, very seriously, but this is not the first time that they threat us or threaten us or they attack us. the latest was on the 28th of september. they wanted to distract the attention of the movement and they want to lure the kurdish

groups into an armed struggle, which we resisted... crosstalk. yeah, but what they did do was they sent — and i'm just looking at their reports from official iranian media — precision—guided missiles, assault drones hitting targets that belong to your party and other kurdish iranian parties. how can you withstand that? they killed 17 people, including a pregnant woman and her unborn child, and injured dozens of people, but we've been accustomed to these kinds of attacks by the iranians. of course, we — its — we pay a price for that, but we have no choice, except to resist. yeah, the problem you have is that you are dependent upon the hospitality — if i can put it that way — of iraq and in particular,

the kurdish regional government in iraq, and it does seem over recent months because of the pressure — the military pressure, being applied by iran — that the kurdish regional government in iraq has agreed with tehran that you must be expelled, your operations disbanded inside iraq. we have not been engaged in any kind of armed struggle or sending infiltrating armed teams into iran, so this is a lie. well, hang on — it's not a lie that you keep so—called peshmerga guerrilla fighters in bases inside iraq. yes, but it's only because of — exclusively for our self—defence. because if you cannot protect yourself, they come and — they come for you. crosstalk. how many peshmergas do you have? i can't tell you, but enough to defend ourselves, our bases in iraqi kurdistan.

during the past three decades, more than 400 people, our members and other parties members, were assassinated, poisoned, killed, kidnapped by iranian agents. you have to protect yourself. you have to have the means to protect yourself. but this is not intended for an armed struggle against the iranian regime, and they know it, and we have not provoked them at all. well, you say they know it, but they appear to regard you as a terrorist organisation. now, back in october of 2022, it was reported from iran and iraqi sources that there was an agreement reached that you would be forced out of your bases in kurdish areas of iraq and the representative of the kurdish regional government, the iraqi kurds, in tehran, mr nazim dabbagh, he said "that iranian kurdish

dissident groups must now "evacuate from our region near the border with iran. "if they refuse to comply," he said, "iran has told us it "will, quote, consider other options to end their presence". this is not what we hear from the people in charge of the krg kurdistan region of iraq. what do they say to you, then? they say they want us to — they want to have — put limits on our activities, our presence, but not expelling us because... crosstalk. what do they mean by limits? well, they want guarantees that we won't go into iranian soil, and we accepted it. in fact, we haven't been engaged in that for many years now — more than 25 years. would you say that, in a sense, effectively, iran's military operations and its threats — to put it bluntly —

have neutralised your activities inside iraq? we don't enter — we are in a good, friendly relations with krg. we respect each other. we do not interfere in each other�*s domestic affairs. and we — as i told you before, we have not been engaged in any military or armed struggle against iran for many, many years — even before these limitations. let's talk now about the efforts that you have been involved with personally to create a sort of united front of iranian opposition groups, capable of presenting a coherent alternative to the islamic republic regime. now, there was an agreement drawn up in the united states, in georgetown, and you've become known as the georgetown group.

it included notjust your own komala group, but the group led by the exiled son of the former shah of iran, reza pahlavi, and a whole host of others with political orientations, but all in exile. you come out with a joint declaration, talking about your commitment to freedom and democracy in iran. and then, within weeks, that georgetown group started to fall apart. it wasn't very impressive, was it? people in the streets, activists, protesters, both inside and outside the country, wanted us to present, both inside and outside the country, wanted us so, we responded positively to their demand with good intentions. the aim was to form a strong,

united opposition coalition to give people hope in iran, give a sense of direction to the movement and also represent the iranian aspirations in their fight for democracy to the international community. well, you say the intentions were good, but the reality was somewhat less impressive. you signed the — this sort of pact in february sort of pact in february, but by april — if i mayjust continue — by april, reza pahlavi, for example — and, indeed, another key leaders and, indeed, another key leader of this georgetown group — had actually left. what happened ? there were all kinds of pressures. it's not easy to stand the pressure for everybody. isn't the truth, you just didn't really have a shared vision, for a future in iran?

for example, many of the people around mr palavi would like to see the return of the monarchy. there are people in your group were more concerned with safeguarding kurdish rights, through a highly federalised future system, which is an anathema to many iranian nationalists, and when you put all these people together there isn't a coherent and unified position? people together, there isn't a coherent, unified position? but we were able to sign a charter which was reasonably good and balanced, where we declared our programme for democratising iran, a new system, new constitution, a new referendum for the people to decide the future of their own government, and also, minority, ethnic, religious rights. it sounded pretty impressive on paper. it was progressive. but my point is it didn't last

more than two months until several of the key people who signed it had walked away from it. it's just not credible, is it? iranians inside and outside the country see that in the end iranians both inside and outside the country see that in the end the opposition remains divided? but the necessity for a united opposition is still there. and it's a burning question. you have to fight for that. maybe one or two of your efforts fail, or does not succeed as you want it. but the necessity is there and the efforts be, should continue. one of the key questions of particular relevance to you in the kurdish—iranian community is, what is your long—term agenda? do you, ultimately see yourselves as part of do you ultimately see yourselves as part of a federalised iran, free, democratic but with much of the power decentralised to your own particular region, in your case, or is your

long—term aspiration, an independent kurdistan? historically, kurds were denied their right to self—determination, but our programme and other parties as well, our programme is a secular, democratic, federal iran, where the rights of kurds and other ethnic minorities are respected and safeguarded, notjust by paying lip service, but by being enshrined in the constitution. a future inside iran, not separate from iran? inside iran, yes. i'm very mindful of your own personal history. your father was intimately involved with that short—lived moment in 19116 where the kurds of iran thought they had created their own state of mahabad.

and the soviet union at the time appeared to sign off on that, to sign off on that, but then, by the end of �*46, the shah had completely destroyed that reality. but your father wanted an independent kurdistan? i do not deny the legitimate aspirations and dreams of the kurdish people, and i don't decide for them, for future generations, but our programme for the foreseeable future, for this generation, and we are responsible for this generation, and only, is a federal state where the rights of kurds are preserved within iran, within a democratic, secular iran. that is a very interesting phrase used "for the foreseeable future", i wonder what iranian nationalists, people who live far, far away from the north—west of iran, from the kurdish regions, what they would make of that phrase, "for the foreseeable future",

because it sounds like it could be a recipe for long—term instability in iran. no, you can by respecting the diversity in iran, diversity of ethnic and religious and cultural and linguistic diversity, in fact, you guarantee the territorial integrity of iran. you guarantee that people live together, we have to accept each other. we have to strike a delicate balance between the aspirations and the rights of the kurdish people on the one side, and at the same time, you have to consider the concerns of other people in iran, the persian—speaking people, the people who live in and other cities. in tehran and other cities. so, i think respecting diversity is the key to stability in the future of iran. just one quick point on this

broad coalition of exiled opposition groups, that you say must come together to present an alternative vision of iran's future. can it include the son of the former shah, reza palavi, who some in your community accuse of basically having a prejudicial attitude toward the kurds and their aspirations? can it also include the mojahedin al khalq, lead by maryam rajavi, who many both in iran and in the west regard as somebody politically beyond the pale, their leader? the mojahedin have to accept and abide by the rules of democratic game in iran, they have to open up and be ready to co—operate with others. but you would be ready to work with them, would you? despite their reputation, despite all the alliances

that they formed in the past with saddam hussein, despite the allegations they oppressed the kurds of iraq, you would consider working with the mojahedin al khalq? i'm not sure they would co—operate with anybody. just a quick thought on reza palavi and whether he is a credible partner? he was considered a credible partner, but he quit. and i'm not that sure next time he will want to be included in any coalition. before we end, let's talk about diplomacy. you spend a lot of your time on the road in washington you spend a lot of your life on the road in washington, in brussels, in all sorts of political capitals trying to support both for the kurdish — iranian position, but also the wider sense of an opposition to the islamic regime.

the iranians say, actually, you have become a puppet of israel and that there is evidence you send agents working for israel to iran on sabotage missions. is this true? no, it's not true. the iranian regime have always tried to portray the iranian kurds as violent secessionists, agents of foreign countries. this is a lie. and they accuse everybody whoever is dissident,, whoever has a critical point about the regime, as being agents of israel and the united states and britain, of course. do you have any talks with israeli officials? no. never? never. you never have had? no. at all? as far as i know. what about other associates in your party, komala? no, i don't think so. you were in washington last october and you said,

"i am worried about the pressures that are exerted against us inside iraq," and we've discussed that, and you said, "i would very much like the united states to intervene." really? you want us intervention? after everything that has happened in recent years? no, no, let's be clear, not in iran, not militarily. you want them to help you in iraq, how would that look to iranians or indeed to iraqis? yes, we need the international protection because iran is killing us, ourfamilies, targeting our schools and residents. but you can't afford to be seen as puppets of washington? not puppets, but protected by the international coalition who are in iraq, what is wrong with that? who are in iraq, what's wrong with that? we have no other protection and the krg is not strong enough to protect us. so, yes, we want the international, the protection by the international

so, yes, we want the protection by the international coalition, who are in iraq, the united states. you are a veteran of this diplomatic and political effort to change the reality in iran, you've been at it for many years, you earlier talked to me about the revolution, but i said to you it's a revolution that hasn't come to pass yet. do you think it will come to pass in your lifetime? i hope so. i'm sure that we will be witnessing new and greater waves of protest, eventually a revolution, and i hope it will take place in my lifetime. abdullah mohtadi, thank you very much forjoining me on hardtalk. thank you for having me.

hello there. 0urfine, dry run of weather continued on monday. plenty of sunshine out west, bit more cloud in the east, and that created some cooler air that then flowed across the uk, hence the lower temperatures that we had — for example, london going from 23 on sunday to 18 for a high on monday. the highest temperatures out west, 2a celsius, warm in the sunshine. we'll see some changes in the weather picture, though, over the next few days, and it's all down to storm 0scar that's bringing torrential rain to madeira. some strong gusts of wind there as well. 0scar itself doesn't actually make it to the uk — it stays to the southwest — but it will be transporting some much warmer air our way. humidity levels rising, as will the temperatures through the weekend, mid—to—high 20s. but it won't be dry everywhere, there will be some fairly hefty thundery showers around, as well, to watch out for — something that gardeners might want, actually, given how dry the weather's been over the last few weeks. now, at the moment, we're seeing cloud come back

in off the north sea, affecting central and eastern scotland, central and eastern england, eastern parts of wales, too. and so, for these areas, we start the day tuesday with a lot of cloud that cool breeze with us, notable again first thing in the morning. 0ut west, sunshine from the word go once again. now, where you start cloudy, that cloud will probably get burned back towards those north sea coasts by the time we get to the afternoon, so most areas will brighten up, but there could be some areas in the east. there, the cloud loiters, the onshore winds continue to blow. it'll feel quite cool, 111—15 celsius — and that is a feature of the weather we've seen so far this month. for example, in holbeach in lincolnshire, the average forjune's 19 celsius — we'll be nowhere near that so far this month, on account of often cloudy weather we've seen, and often those chilly northeasterly winds. and another feature of the weather we've got at the moment is some of you will see quite high levels of pollen — and it's grass pollen we have at the moment, so if you're allergic to that, you might find it being a bit sneezy on tuesday. wednesday, probably less

in the way of cloud around. what little cloud there is could loiter across some english eastern coasts, but otherwise more sunshine, and so probably temperatures a little bit higher, 211—25 out west. and over the next few days, more of the same — it's really into the weekend that we see those temperatures rise, along with the humidity, and we'll probably start to see showers and thunderstorms break out, as well.