voice—over: this is bbc news. we'll have the headlines and all the main news stories for you at the top of the hour, straight after this programme. welcome to hardtalk from cape town. i am stephen stucker. south africa is a land of contrasting emotion. there is residual pride at the success of the struggle against apartheid and also deep frustration at the failings of the post liberation political leadership. those contrasting emotions of fertile territory for political satire. my guest todayis for political satire. my guest today is jonathan for political satire. my guest

today isjonathan shapiro, best known by his pen name zapiro. he is south africa's most prominent and controversial political cartoonist. so amid all of its troubles, is south africa able to laugh at itself? jonathan shapiro, better known by your pen name zapiro, welcome to hardtalk. it is a great pleasure to meet you and i want to begin with something you said a few years ago, you said moral outrage is what drives a cartoonist. you have been at this cartooning for four decades. can you maintain outrage forfour four decades. can you maintain outrage for four decades? you can.

outrage for four decades? you can- when _ outrage for four decades? you can- when i — outrage for four decades? you can. when i was _ outrage for four decades? 7m. can. when i was doing outrage for four decades? 7m, can. when i was doing five or six cartoons a week i would sometimes wonder what the hell they do today and you wake up in the morning and the news just keeps coming. it would happen to cartoonists everywhere in the world because thatis everywhere in the world because that is what drives all of us. that's what takes this craft, this genre of medication seriously. in somewhere like south africa, the news hits you from every angle every day. at an unbelievable rate. i from every angle every day. at an unbelievable rate.— an unbelievable rate. i wonder whether there _ an unbelievable rate. i wonder whether there is _ an unbelievable rate. i wonder whether there is something i whether there is something personal about this outrage which, clearly developed quite youngin which, clearly developed quite young in you. you had a lot of trauma in yourfamily, in your life because your mother locally, fled and survived the nazis in eastern europe. do you think that background has something to do with your sensibility? it something to do with your sensibility?— sensibility? it has in the sense that _ sensibility? it has in the sense that my _ sensibility? it has in the

sense that my mother l sense that my mother communicated to us something i find very important. thejewish day as per, there has been a fairly unqualified, almost unqualified support for israel, for example. and my mother taught us that never again meant neverfor taught us that never again meant never for everybody, not just never forjewish people. what i not think i had a sort of dramatic, i don't feel the trauma in my youth. it wasjust something, the sort of values that my parents communicated that my parents communicated that i feel were important. so i understood that we were living in an evil society during apartheid and i knew i would like to do something about it. i never really did anything for quite a long time but what turned me into an activist was being conscripted into the army.— activist was being conscripted into the army. and you were a leftist, a _

into the army. and you were a leftist, a white _ into the army. and you were a leftist, a white south - into the army. and you were a leftist, a white south african | leftist, a white south african serving in a military force which was clearly commissioned to maintain this repressive racist apartheid regime. exactly. i was a leftie in the making. i had not really done anything to speak of except for anything to speak of except for a few posters and whatever but when that moment came that felt catalytic for me and... . so this is where _ catalytic for me and... . so this is where the _ catalytic for me and... . so this is where the drawing l catalytic for me and... . so| this is where the drawing of the moral outrage really came together? i the moral outrage really came touether? ., together? ithought, well, i will have — together? ithought, well, i will have to _ together? ithought, well, i will have to go _ together? ithought, well, i will have to go to _ together? ithought, well, i will have to go to this - together? ithought, well, i will have to go to this army| will have to go to this army because i did not have the money or the wherefore to leave the country. six years jail if you refuse, if you became a conscientious objector. so i became what some people call a conscientious noncombatant. but while i was in the army the united democratic front formed.

that was sort of like the anc national congress but above ground and ijoined while i was in the army. in that freak the army out even more who sent literary observers to the trial, they were can was convicted, a small conviction, the first people to be convicted of illegal gathering in cars which is also funny. i was public about it and i said to hell with all of this i now want to be an activist, and use my cartoons to actually do something and so i became an activist cartoonist while i was in the army which was really strange. in the army which was really stran . e. ., in the army which was really stranue. ., . ., , ., in the army which was really stranue. ., . . , ., ., strange. you clearly had a gift for it. strange. you clearly had a gift for it- so _ strange. you clearly had a gift for it. so let's _ strange. you clearly had a gift for it. so let's fast _ strange. you clearly had a gift for it. so let's fast forward - for it. so let's fast forward to the post—1994 period when apartheid has successfully been defeated and dismantled. nelson mandela became the figurehead leader of a liberated south africa. whether certain things

for you, africa. whether certain things foryou, because africa. whether certain things for you, because of your background, that were always off—limits? particularly i think of the persona and the personality of nelson mandela himself was he somebody that for you as a cartoonist, whatever outrage you were feeling, you would never really go for the jugular with go for thejugular with mandela? go for the 'ugular with mandela?_ go for the 'ugular with mandela? ., ., ., mandela? not true. i would go for the mandela? not true. i would go forthejugular. _ mandela? not true. i would go for the jugular, yes _ mandela? not true. i would go for the jugular, yes i _ mandela? not true. i would go for the jugular, yes i did - mandela? not true. i would go for the jugular, yes i did not i for thejugular, yes i did not go for thejugular but for thejugular, yes i did not go for the jugular but i for thejugular, yes i did not go for thejugular but i did critical cartoons as early as 1994, the first year of his presidency. by1995| had 1994, the first year of his presidency. by 19951 had a cartoon of him with a halo that was slipping. did cartoon of him with a halo that was slipping-— was slipping. did you get a message — was slipping. did you get a message from _ was slipping. did you get a message from him - was slipping. did you get a message from him saying l was slipping. did you get a - message from him saying what are you doing?— are you doing? no. absolutely not. the most _ are you doing? no. absolutely not. the most powerful- are you doing? no. absolutely l not. the most powerful moment for me as a cartoonist ever was in 1998, four years into mandela's presidency and i got

a phone call from the president's office. i don't know who was on the line, i thought, maybe, then a woman voice said hold on for president mandela. and then i thought no, maybe this is one of my friends playing around because he's not going to phone me. and then he comes on and says hello, is that zapiro. i says hello, is that zapiro. i say yes. and he says this is president mandela. i am very upset with you. i thought, oh my god, this is it. this is it. he is best off about something. and then i asked what i had i done and he said no, ijust saw that your cartoons would not be reproduced in the cape odyssey anymore and he loved them. so i was speechless for a few seconds and then i said to him

i really want to say something. i'm just amazed that you called me personally but even more so because in the four reasons i met you you would have seen the cartoons becoming more and more critical of the anc and the government and he said oh, but thatis government and he said oh, but that is yourjob. and for me that is yourjob. and for me thatjust personified that amazing ability of his to take criticism and to see the importance of criticism, of cartooning, of good journalism in the country. that puts him head and shoulders above most politicians, most statesmen. let's talk now about your relationship with more recent south african leaders, in particular i want to focus on jacob zuma. it is one thing to draw a leader with a slipping halo but your treatment of zuma was on a different scale. in most people in south africa will think of your characterisation of zuma with a

showerhead coming out of the top of his head. that became a huge thing in this country. what was that about? in 2006 when zuma — what was that about? in 2006 when zuma was _ what was that about? in 2006 when zuma was already - what was that about? in 2006 - when zuma was already embroiled in controversy around corruption charges, he suddenly got a rape charge against him and he went through a trial and the cross examination he admitted that he actually knew that the person he had supposedly had this consensual sex with was hiv positive and then they said to him so did you use protection, no, he did not. why not? because he thought he did not have much chance of infection. jacob zuma had been the head of the national aids council when he was debbie president. so this was debbie president. so this was absurd. and then it went further. they said what did you

do next after this suppose a consensual sex. do next after this suppose a consensualsex. i do next after this suppose a consensual sex. i had a shower. why? to lessen the chance of infection. so the shower... i just thought thought, that is something i can use as a device but i think it is worth looking at how you did this. the point is ou at how you did this. the point is you did _ at how you did this. the point is you did not _ at how you did this. the point is you did notjust _ at how you did this. the point is you did notjust do - at how you did this. the point is you did notjust do this - is you did notjust do this shower drawing once, you did it time and time and time again over many monthss, in fact over many years. here is one example. you cannot imagine a man made to look more ridiculous than this image of zuma with a giant shower nozzle over his head. in a sense as a cartoonist were you trying to destroy his credibility? {iii destroy his credibility? of course. destroy his credibility? of course- i _ destroy his credibility? of course. i think it destroy his credibility? oi course. i think it was doing a damn finejob course. i think it was doing a damnfinejob of course. i think it was doing a damn fine job of that himself but i am then elaborating and

doing more with things that he actually said. what a cartoonist is trying to do is to somehow encapsulate for people almost what they are thinking themselves. so i am not only preaching to the converted, i'm trying to communicate something to the people in the middle, to people who need clarification or if something is very funny or very shocking but itjust does hit the mark, that is what i was trying to do. he the mark, that is what i was trying to do— trying to do. he has never escaped — trying to do. he has never escaped from _ trying to do. he has never escaped from that - trying to do. he has never escaped from that image. j trying to do. he has never- escaped from that image. but perhaps even darker was your decision to draw this cartoon. you have drawn him, it would seem, is a would—be rapist, a man who was about to force himself upon ladyjustice, the symbol of lady justice. himself upon ladyjustice, the symbol of ladyjustice. and there are individuals, political figures there are individuals, politicalfigures in there are individuals, political figures in south africa who are holding lady

justice down, aiding and abetting zuma. this is dark. it abetting zuma. this is dark. ii is dark. and there were people who were angry at me for portraying him in this gang rape seen about to happen when he had been acquitted of actual rape. he had been acquitted of actual ra e. �* , he rape. and the thing is... . he sued you- — rape. and the thing is... . he sued you- he _ rape. and the thing is... . he sued you. he did _ rape. and the thing is... . he sued you. he did and - rape. and the thing is... . he sued you. he did and that. rape. and the thing is... . he| sued you. he did and that was the second time he sued me. the first time was after the rape trial in the second time was after this cartoon. but the reason for that cartoon was not about his, about his actual charge of rape. i was sitting at my drawing board and i said to myself he is raping the justice system. and i was thinking about that as a metaphor and i suddenly got that shock when i realised that the justice system is personified by a woman. and i made sure it was labelled

justice system so it has to be seen as a metaphor. of course that did not stop him from suing me in the case went on forfour suing me in the case went on for four years suing me in the case went on forfour years right into his presidency and he was determined to go for it. i confronted him about it on radio and he said something very funny, he said i saw your cartoons, you are invading my dignity. a very strange and interesting version of events. that is what he saw i was doing. i that is what he saw i was doini. ., , ., doing. i wonder whether you were given _ doing. i wonder whether you were given more _ doing. i wonder whether you were given more pause - doing. i wonder whether you were given more pause for l doing. i wonder whether you l were given more pause for fall were given more pause forfall not by the fact that zuma was in theory aided and to through the legal system but many other south africans were infuriated, not least women in south africa who basically said how dare you, as a man, particularly as a white man, use rape as a symbol, a metaphor in what, in the end, is a cartoon, when the

reality for south african women, particularly black south african women is of a crime of rape which is endemic in this country. how dare you. i rape which is endemic in this country. how dare you.- country. how dare you. i am very happy _ country. how dare you. i am very happy to _ country. how dare you. i am very happy to say _ country. how dare you. i am very happy to say that - country. how dare you. i am very happy to say that that l country. how dare you. i am i very happy to say that that was not a universal condemnation. i have the quotes here. the director of the rape crisis cape town tries, kathleen day, in 2017 said it was in constable to trigger the trauma of thousands of rape survivors, anotherjournalist of thousands of rape survivors, another journalist said that jonathan, why are you using our pain, making us relive our trauma to make a political point? trauma to make a political oint? , point? the interesting thing about those _ point? the interesting thing about those quotes - point? the interesting thing about those quotes is - point? the interesting thing about those quotes is that l point? the interesting thing i about those quotes is that that is just one part of the debate. debate was incredibly complex. there were radio discussions, phoning discussions where women phonedin

phoning discussions where women phoned in and said, more black women than white women phoning in and saying that i was shocked when i saw the cartoon and then i actually looked again and thought and looked again and thought and looked again and thought and looked again and thought and said that this happened a number of times when i was on radio. it was hectic. there were people phoning in and saying that kind of thing and then there were other people who said this happened to me. i was not only raped and i was gang rape. but i understand that it is a metaphor and that this also represents a condemnation of this kind of patriarchy and violence against women. so many many women identified with and saw my empathy with the situation. so those who wanted an apology from you never got one? i didn't say i'm not sorry, i did not say things like that. i said i want to hear, i want to

listen and i will defend the cartoon and i will keep defending the cartoon but i appreciate that not everybody sees there in exactly the same way. but i felt i came out of that particular cartoon ok. there is one other cartoon, specifically want to talk about and i guess you may know what it is and it is 2016 and a cartoon where you pretrade zuma as the organ grinder in a visual representation of the classic thing about the monkey and the organ grinder, and the monkey on this occasion was actually the national prosecuting authority chief, a guy called sean abrams, who is a south african man of colour, you portrayed him as a monkey. 0k. ., . ., you portrayed him as a monkey. 0k. ., _, y ., you portrayed him as a monkey. 0k. ., _, _, ., you portrayed him as a monkey. 0k. ., ., ., 0k. how could you do that, iiven ok. how could you do that, given all— 0k. how could you do that, given all the _ 0k. how could you do that, given all the associations i 0k. how could you do that, i given all the associations that everybody across the world knows about how white people have characterised black

people? have characterised black eo - le? have characterised black --eole? ~ , , have characterised black neale? ~ ,, ., people? i... miss read the mood. people? i... miss read the mood- i. _ people? i... miss read the mood- i. i. _ people? i... miss read the mood. i, i, and— people? i... miss read the mood. i, i, and fully- people? i... miss read the| mood. i, i, and fully aware people? i... miss read the i mood. i, i, and fully aware of the racist troops and fully aware of the horrible racist cartoons that demean people — — miss read the mood that people in ways that i would never do. i thought i was doing something very different and for a while, the cartoons that in the public domain and people thought it was a very funny cartoon, a very interesting cartoon. it was talking about, it said another state organ, another organ grinder�*s monkey because zuma was busy converting the state organs into mouthpieces and had this little puppet. but in the end _ and had this little puppet. but in the end it _ and had this little puppet. but in the end it with a black man as a monkey. in the end it with a black man as a monkey-— in the end it with a black man as a monkey. ok, so when i said i miss read _ as a monkey. ok, so when i said i miss read the _ as a monkey. ok, so when i said i miss read the mood, _ as a monkey. ok, so when i said i miss read the mood, i - as a monkey. ok, so when i said i miss read the mood, i thought| i miss read the mood, i thought that by having zuma with the

big target and done in fully human form and the other guy, sean abrams, who is done, you even said, it is a kind of classic cartoon metaphor that has been moved many times, —— used many times, i had this little guide not done in those classic racist tribe kind of blackface at all, butjust classic racist tribe kind of blackface at all, but just as part of this metaphor and i thought people would see that there is no generalised racism or anything like that. and, for a while, it looked like that was the case, and then somebody picked up on it in that way and then there was no way back. i and he did apologise? i did. i apologise for what i said, as well, in previous eras there was a discussion and i could in the same way as i am still saying that i am not making an apology for the rape of lady

justice cartoon, i'm saying that i am listening and there are many ways of saying that but in this one, i was on a losing wicket, and it was a nightmare. and i nearly got cancelled and i fought my way... cancelled and i fought my wa , cancelled and i fought my wa..., .,, way... did you nearly get cancelled? _ way... did you nearly get cancelled? yes. - way... did you nearly get cancelled? yes. are i way... did you nearly get cancelled? yes. are you | way... did you nearly get i cancelled? yes. are you being more careful— cancelled? yes. are you being more careful question - cancelled? yes. are you being more careful question i'm i cancelled? yes. are you being i more careful question i'm being more careful question i'm being more careful question i'm being more careful about how i say things but i will not stop criticising and blunt the power, i would just find other ways of saying the same thing equally hard. but ways of saying the same thing equally hard-— equally hard. but what we really get _ equally hard. but what we really get into _ equally hard. but what we really get into is - equally hard. but what we really get into is the i equally hard. but what we i really get into is the degree to which you are happy to cause offence. , to which you are happy to cause offence.- and _ to which you are happy to cause offence.- and one - to which you are happy to cause offence. yes. and one more cartoon _ offence. yes. and one more cartoon is — offence. yes. and one more cartoon is the _ offence. yes. and one more cartoon is the one _ offence. yes. and one more cartoon is the one where i offence. jazz and one more cartoon is the one where you chose to depict the prophet mohammed. he did this long after salman rushdie, the danish cartoonist who ran into big trouble after depicting the

prophet, and you must have known that your depiction of the prophet mohammed would lead to an almighty set of problems for you and upset a huge number of your readers? i for you and upset a huge number of your readers?— of your readers? i didn't exect of your readers? i didn't expect it _ of your readers? i didn't expect it to _ of your readers? i didn't expect it to cause i of your readers? i didn't i expect it to cause outrage. there was a campaign which as far as i knew, there were 17 editorial cartoonists who had signed this thing, i felt like i was part of a cartoon in community and a sword of freedom of expression community of writers, poets, singers, people who felt very outraged that there are religious demagogues who try to control the way we, the way anyone, can say something if you are not inherent to a particular religion or dogma, notjust religion or dogma, not just islam. religion or dogma, notjust islam. i have done cartoons that have really outraged

catholics, protestants, jewish people, muslims, hindus and buddhists. have i left anyone out? �* . . i buddhists. have i left anyone out?_ i don'ti buddhists. have i left anyone i out?_ i don't do out? and that is ok? i don't do it as a gratuitous _ out? and that is ok? i don't do it as a gratuitous insult. - out? and that is ok? i don't do it as a gratuitous insult. what i it as a gratuitous insult. what i do is if there is some reason that i feel they are preventing freedom of speech, or if i feel they are being homophobic, or they are being homophobic, or they are being homophobic, or they are controlling, trying to control women's reproductive rights or any of those things, or being politically reactionary and i'm afraid it happens in all of these religions.— happens in all of these religions. happens in all of these reliiions. . , , religions. so in a sense he wanted to _ religions. so in a sense he wanted to make _ religions. so in a sense he wanted to make a - religions. so in a sense he wanted to make a stand i religions. so in a sense he| wanted to make a stand by drawing the prophet mohammed. i wonder whether it was worth it because of course the police then said they uncovered a plot to kill you. it never reached a courtroom but they said there was a plot out there. you've certainly received death threats alongside all the legal battles with zuma and everything else. have you reached a point in your career you think you do not need this

anymore?— anymore? you know, i'm not climbing. — anymore? you know, i'm not climbing. it _ anymore? you know, i'm not climbing, it is _ anymore? you know, i'm not climbing, it is scary - anymore? you know, i'm not climbing, it is scary becausel climbing, it is scary because look what happened to salman rushdie? i don't even know what my standing by all of these things... will bring. but i want to stand by the other cartoonists and writers and other artists and poets and singers who have stood by their beliefs and are trying to fight for freedom of expression. beliefs and are trying to fight forfreedom of expression. what for freedom of expression. what ou are for freedom of expression. what you are is _ for freedom of expression. what you are is a _ for freedom of expression. what you are is a cartoonist _ for freedom of expression. what you are is a cartoonist who i for freedom of expression. what you are is a cartoonist who has navigated through 29 years of post apartheid south africa and in a sense yourjob and career is a testament to the fact that freedom and a constitution ultimately are respected in this country. you have not been

locked up. this country. you have not been locked up-_ locked up. absolutely. i often, i remember — locked up. absolutely. i often, i remember again, _ locked up. absolutely. i often, i remember again, about i locked up. absolutely. i often, i remember again, about two i i remember again, about two decades ago when i did a very risque cartoon about bill clinton when he was visiting and some of the american journalists were here. one of them wanted to send this cartoon to he is, or he tried, to send it to his newspaper to try and get it published their. the editors said are you out of your mind! thisjournalist the editors said are you out of your mind! this journalist said to me you guys can get things published here that we would not be able to publish in mainstream newspapers in america. so i think freedom of expression is very much alive in this country. there are a lot of stresses and strains but we do shout out and talk out and are able to do so and we haven't been locked up. there haven't been locked up. there have been all kinds of weird things that have happened and litigations and suing, whatever, death threats and this and that and the other but we actually do get that chance.

it is fantastic. civil society is very active here and i think that will be part of our saving grace. the people won't shut up and people will try to coalesce again around good things and there are still good people in there are still good people in the political parties. we are in a pretty dark place but we have been in dark places before and i'm really hoping we can come out of this.— and i'm really hoping we can come out of this. and you are not leaving — come out of this. and you are not leaving that _ come out of this. and you are not leaving that drawing i come out of this. and you are i not leaving that drawing board? not any time soon.— not any time soon. jonathan shairo, not any time soon. jonathan shapiro, zapiro, _ not any time soon. jonathan shapiro, zapiro, thank i not any time soon. jonathan shapiro, zapiro, thank you i not any time soon. jonathan | shapiro, zapiro, thank you so much for being on hardtalk. thank you very much. hello, there. you've probably

noticed the weather not really changing very much over recent times, and that's because high pressure's been firmly dominating. and with high pressure around, it's not rained very much anywhere. but in warwickshire, in church lawford, you have to go back to may 11 — that was the last time it rained — so that's nearly four weeks of dry weather. some of the warmest weather has been across in northern ireland, county tyrone. it's been very warm in castlederg for the last nine days, but five of these recent days have seen temperatures reach 24 degrees — that's six above average. now, it's the west that had the highest temperatures again on tuesday, but england, stuck underneath this area of cloud, had much lower temperatures in many areas — for example, in leek, in staffordshire, 18 degrees on monday, 12 degrees on tuesday. we also had some cloud dropping the temperatures in parts of west scotland as well. now, over the next few hours, we're seeing that cloud again thicken up across parts of england, wales, northern and eastern scotland. you might find a few spots of drizzle, although predominantly, it will be a dry start to the day on wednesday. the best of the early—morning

sunshine, like recent times, will be across these western areas of the country. could be a few mist patches clearing and lifting, and then the sunshine comes out. i think there is a better chance of seeing this cloud break up across the midlands, east wales, so you probably will see some sunshine. but there could be some areas of eastern england again that keep the cloud all day. where that happens, temperatures into the teens — but otherwise, i think more of us will see temperatures into the low 20s. and with those sunny conditions out west, we'll see some very high levels of pollen building in across parts of england and wales, so it could be quite a sneezy day for hay—fever sufferers allergic to grass pollen. now, for thursday, again, there could be a bit of cloud around across eastern areas — probably east scotland, northeast england, the favoured spots for holding on to that. but otherwise, plenty of sunshine around, and those temperatures again reaching the mid—20s in the very warmest areas. we then do start to see a change, courtesy of this storm system — storm oscar — that's been bringing some torrential rain to madeira. what that's going to do — it moves to the southwest of the uk, and it shoves a load of humid air across the country. and so, we'll see a change in the weather conditions as we head into the weekend. as it turns more humid,

we'll start to see some showers and thunderstorms break out. and although the rain from these will be hit and miss in nature, some could see the first significant rain for four weeks.