some thunderstorms, predicted by and some thunderstorms, predicted by the time we get to saturday into sunday. also those temperatures, during the weekend on the rise so somewhere in the mid to high 20s, and a small chance we could squeeze 30 degrees in one or two places but more likely to be around 29 with saturday bringing the peak of the heat. but now we are still in the cooler air mass and we have that cloud again rolling off the north sea affecting eastern areas, filtering a bit further west overnight. still relatively cool in the countryside we could be down to five or 6 degrees first thing tomorrow. we start the day with a lot of cloud again, like recent days, and it will melt away back to the east coast but if you are stuck in part the north—east of england towards eastern scotland under the cloud, temperatures typically iii towards eastern scotland under the cloud, temperatures typically 1a or 15 degrees but further west we are likely to see 2a celsius. still a noticeable breeze coming from the north sea, particularly in east anglia and southern england but look

at the pollen levels, high or very high across england and wales and grass pollen is reaching its peak. heading into friday, largely dry again, some cloud lingering in the far north—east again and the chance of the odd shower approaching the far south—west later on. those temperatures are a bit higher so more widely in the mid 20s but still relatively cool around the north—east. looking ahead to the weekend, it will be warming up, the chance of some hit and miss heavy showers and thunderstorms but it looks drier and warmer again in the next week.

man and beast alike are struggling to stay above the flood waters of the river dnipro. with peace seemingly further away than ever, we'll talk to nato's former secretary—general about how it might still be salvaged. also tonight: 100,000 people's confidential information has been hacked and could be revealed next week unless a ransom is paid. we'll ask a cybersecurity expert and an mp who investigated a previous cyberhack what should employers do? one year after p&0 sacked 800 workers, we investigate whether there have been any consequences for the firm. i can't see why the civil investigation is dragging on like this, because the burden of proof is much lower for a civil matter than what it is for a criminal matter as well. it is inexcusable. and does the decline in school music teaching threaten to silence the humble recorder? the fightback starts here.

recorder theme. good evening. to the scourge of war, a disastrous flood has been added. tens of thousands have had their homes swamped, water supplies to a broad swathe of ukraine have been cut off, and the viability of irrigation in the so—called bread basket of europe called into question. these are all consequences of the collapse of the khakovka dam. while ukraine says russia blew it up, and western countries suspect that might be right, the us and uk, notably, are still calling it a "collapse", saying it's too early to directly blame russia. however, they do blame them for mismanagement of the facility at a time of record water levels. the flooding opens up again the question of possible reparations, and comes as the ukrainian army tries to break winter and springs battlefield stalemate. with millions of litres of water on the move, it'll take time to see just how far

this disaster reaches. but already 40,000 people are affected and broad swathes of land inundated. above the dam, the opposite — fish left high and dry by the falling waters in the reservoir. and among those trying to cope, struggles and disbelief. nan needs to be loaded up. she is sitting on the second floor and there is a grate and we need to cut off the grate, take her out of the window and load her into the boat. but between the edge and the boat there is about half a yard, and as you can see, the boat isn't stable so it's going to be a problem. the situation is worse on the russian—occupied, or left bank, of the dnipro. this footage shows a ukrainian drone delivering a bottle of water to stranded householders. the russian army has found many of its nearby positions flooded and is withdrawing troops from them. with human and environmental costs rising, western countries

want to hold russia accountable. while russia tries to blame ukraine. translation: we are calling - on the secretary-general to finally give an objective assessment of the actions of the terrorist kyiv regime and we insist on finding out all the circumstances of this treacherous attack against kakhovka hydroelectric power station. we cannot allow a repeat of the situation of the tragedy in bucha or blowing up the nord stream pipeline. despite some reports that america has intelligence that russia blew the dam up, british defence intelligence took a cautious line this morning, saying that the dam "partially failed" yesterday morning and noting a record high water leveljust before the collapse. the british government has preferred instead to hold russia responsible by virtue of its invasion. if it does turn out to be russia, i think it would fit with a pattern of behaviour throughout this war, which is where russia have,

as an active strategy, deliberately targeted civilian infrastructure. if intentional, this attack would represent the largest attack on civilian infrastructure during the war. to the east of the reservoir, meanwhile, ukraine has continued with its probing attacks, both in the zaporizhzhia area and around bakhmut. video of these battles remains in short supply, though this footage of ukrainian operations near bakhmut has surfaced. ukraine is keen to mask its progress, and indeed, even whether it's started feeding in its western—trained units on a large scale. but progress, or lack of it, on the battlefield, will do much to define whether there can be any accounting for the kakhovka dam. to discuss what happens next, we'rejoined by lord kim darroch,

former national security adviser to the uk government. would you expect the uk government to be more forward leaning and assigning responsibility to russia for this? like you, i am intrigued for this? like you, iam intrigued by for this? like you, i am intrigued by what the government has so far said a lot said about this, and they have to stick to the facts in what they know, so i think it is prudent if it is not clear that they should be cautious. one way or another, whether it was russian incompetence in looking after the dam that allowed a breach to occur, the collapse to occur, or actually a russian explosion has been the cause of it, or it is a bit of both, this is on the russian chargesheet. they are responsible for this one way or another, i think. that are responsible for this one way or another, ithink.— another, i think. that is a line that certainly _ another, i think. that is a line that certainly we _ another, i think. that is a line that certainly we have - another, i think. that is a line that certainly we have heard l another, i think. that is a line - that certainly we have heard from the foreign secretary yesterday, that sense of general responsibility because of the invasion. i don't think anyone in whitehall thinks that there is a convincing

justification for the russian counter charge, that ukraine might have done it. but if the thing just collapsed, would it still be right to seek reparations, for example? well, then you get into quite arcane legal territory, well, then you get into quite arcane legalterritory, but well, then you get into quite arcane legal territory, but i would have thought so. i would have thought so, because, after all, one way or another, the russians have been responsible for this damage to ukrainian infrastructure, along with a whole lot else. i mean, russian tactics for months now have been around holding their defensive lines and targeting ukrainian infrastructure and population centres, and this is showing the ukrainians what a war of attrition looks like, and so they have to carry responsibility for it. well, let's get a perspective now from curse on.

—— from kherson. we are joined —— from kherson. we arejoined now by residents olga hyorhyeva. can you give us an idea of what the atmosphere is like in kherson to? well, you know, since yesterday morning. — well, you know, since yesterday morning, the atmosphere and kherson was horrible~ _ morning, the atmosphere and kherson was horrible. it is really a disaster_ was horrible. it is really a disaster that has occurred here. i think_ disaster that has occurred here. i think it _ disaster that has occurred here. i think it was — disaster that has occurred here. i think it was the worst day since the 24th of— think it was the worst day since the 24th of february last year. we were shocked _ 24th of february last year. we were shocked when we read that the dam was blown _ shocked when we read that the dam was blown up, and people were first in panic. _ was blown up, and people were first in panic. and— was blown up, and people were first in panic, and then awaiting whatever was coming — in panic, and then awaiting whatever was coming to kherson closer.

reading — was coming to kherson closer. reading everything, and all channels, listening to news, what awaits _ channels, listening to news, what awaits. really, it was the most frightening morning since the 24th of february. now, the situation on the other of february. — now, the situation on the other side of the river, the left bank, is considerably worse stock there is worse flooding there, and you have family there, don't you? have you heard from them?— heard from them? well, yes. my daughter-in-law's _ heard from them? well, yes. my daughter-in-law's family, - heard from them? well, yes. my daughter-in-law's family, mostl heard from them? well, yes. myl daughter-in-law's family, most of daughter—in—law's family, most of them _ daughter—in—law's family, most of them live — daughter—in—law's family, most of them live there, and they could not leave _ them live there, and they could not leave that _ them live there, and they could not leave that area during occupation, because, — leave that area during occupation, because, well, they were blocked there _ because, well, they were blocked there and — because, well, they were blocked there. and my daughter—in—law's mother— there. and my daughter—in—law's mother is— there. and my daughter—in—law's mother is living in a village, and her house — mother is living in a village, and her house is— mother is living in a village, and her house is flooded. she is staying on the _ her house is flooded. she is staying on the second floor of her

neighbour's house now. half of the city there. — neighbour's house now. half of the city there, the town, is also flooded, _ city there, the town, is also flooded, but she is living in an apartment building on the fourth floor. _ apartment building on the fourth floor, which is more or less still staying — floor, which is more or less still staying well, but the city don't have _ staying well, but the city don't have water there, and connection is very hard. _ have water there, and connection is very hard, but they managed to talk to her— very hard, but they managed to talk to her today. she isjust waiting for the — to her today. she isjust waiting for the level of water coming down, staying _ for the level of water coming down, staying in— for the level of water coming down, staying in her flat lock there. the situation — staying in her flat lock there. the situation there is horrible. her

mother's— situation there is horrible. her mother's mother is in hospital, and they could — mother's mother is in hospital, and they could not move anywhere. so the situation _ they could not move anywhere. so the situation on _ they could not move anywhere. so the situation on the left bank, people are suffering there, nobody rescues them, _ are suffering there, nobody rescues them, and — are suffering there, nobody rescues them, and we can do nothing at all. thank— them, and we can do nothing at all. thank you. — them, and we can do nothing at all. thank you, olga, for that update. extraordinary adversity that people are dealing with now there. let's bring you back in, lord darroch. regardless of this finer argument about whether they mismanage the situation until it collapsed, whether it was blown up by russia, does adding this to the other infrastructure that people will want reparations for seem like a runner to you? can this somehow be calculated as a cost to the future russian government, that it will have to meet? i russian government, that it will have to meet?— russian government, that it will have to meet? i think it can, and i think that would _ have to meet? i think it can, and i think that would be _ have to meet? i think it can, and i think that would be the _ have to meet? i think it can, and i think that would be the right - think that would be the right approach, though to be realistic, are we actually ever going to see russia pay reparations on this? the

other point i make here, mark, is, this is land, this is territory which the russians claim historically part of russia. putin has annexed this, and yet, they are progressively laying waste to it, they are destroying it. so quite what this means for the loyalties of the population that may come back or is still there, quite what it means for the long—term future if russia is intending to hold this territory, one has to wonder. it makes no sense at all, quite apart from the human misery it is causing. lord darroch, olga hyorhyeva, thank you both very much. let's try to look at the broader perspective now for the months ahead. looking to have a solution might be found and how it then might be secured. anders fogh rasmussen was prime minister of denmark and then secretary—general

of nato until 2014. hejoins us in the he joins us in the studio. welcome to newsnight. we havejust been talking about reparations. how important is that for the ukrainian government? they have been engaged intensively in working with president zelensky to look at the future and how it might be secured. or does it, if it prevents peace from being achieved, turn into something that becomes a second order priority? i something that becomes a second order priority?— order priority? i would turn it around and — order priority? i would turn it around and say _ order priority? i would turn it around and say that - order priority? i would turn it i around and say that reparations order priority? i would turn it - around and say that reparations and bringing the responsible for war crimes tojustice, are part bringing the responsible for war crimes to justice, are part of a sustainable peace. you cannot ensure a long—term, sustainable peace without reparations and without bringing people to justice. without reparations and without bringing people tojustice. tiara. without reparations and without bringing people to justice. bringing people to “ustice. now, in terms of getting _ bringing people tojustice. now, in terms of getting from _ bringing people tojustice. now, in terms of getting from where - bringing people tojustice. now, in terms of getting from where we i bringing people tojustice. now, in| terms of getting from where we are today to a point where there can be some sort of meaningful discussion

between ukraine and russia in the wider world, there has to be a change in the military situation. that seems to be the consensus, particularly on the western side. if russia is not prepared to talk seriously about peace at the moment, enormous hopes are riding on this ukrainian counteroffensive, which we think has begun. do you think it can meet those hopes? i'm optimistic that if we are delivering all the weapons the ukrainians need they can retake lost land. they have the will to fight. it's our obligation to give them the means to fight, and that's a winning formula. i means to fight, and that's a winning formula. ., . i. ., formula. i noticed you caveat it, if the have formula. i noticed you caveat it, if they have the _ formula. i noticed you caveat it, if they have the weapons _ formula. i noticed you caveat it, if they have the weapons they - formula. i noticed you caveat it, if| they have the weapons they need. formula. i noticed you caveat it, if- they have the weapons they need. are you confident or do you have concerns in that regard? i have concerns in that regard? i have concerns but _ concerns in that regard? i have concerns but it _ concerns in that regard? i have concerns but it has _ concerns in that regard? i have concerns but it has become - concerns in that regard? i have - concerns but it has become better. we have finally delivered longer

range missiles, heavy battle tanks. i think the next steps should be to deliver fighterjets. i think the next steps should be to deliverfighterjets. they i think the next steps should be to deliver fighterjets. they will need that. deliver fighter “ets. they will need that. �* . deliver fighter “ets. they will need that. �* , , ., that. and if the result is at the end of this _ that. and if the result is at the end of this campaign - that. and if the result is at the end of this campaign season, l that. and if the result is at the - end of this campaign season, whether that lasts to the summer, or the autumn light as it did last year, is that considerable progress is made but a substantial part of ukraine is still under russian control and president putin is still in office, what happens then? do we go round this cycle again of rearming through the next winter and campaigning again next year? i the next winter and campaigning again next year?— the next winter and campaigning again next year? i think we need a lonter again next year? i think we need a longer term _ again next year? i think we need a longer term perspective. - again next year? i think we need a longer term perspective. you - again next year? i think we need a l longer term perspective. you cannot win a war by an incremental approach as we did so far. if you are to win as we did so far. if you are to win a waryou as we did so far. if you are to win a war you need to surprise and overwhelm your adversary. and that's why we also have now to consider delivering security guarantees to ukraine, which would be a long—term

commitment from a number of ukrainian allies to deliver capabilities to make ukraine more capable to defend itself by itself. when ukraine gave up its nuclear weapons in the early 90s it supposedly had guarantees from the us, the uk and other countries, and they didn't amount to much. they didn't prove to be that useful and it hasn't stopped what has happened in the past 18 months. what would the difference be in your thinking? would it involve for example us or uk troops being based in ukraine? i do not foresee to deploy troops on ukrainian soil, but there are elements in the kyiv security pact that i prepared for president zelensky. firstly to help ukraine build a strong military, so strong they can withstand all future

russian attacks. secondly to enhance intelligence exchange between ukraine and its allies. third, to sustain training and exercises under a nato flag and on ukrainian soil. and fourthly, to help them develop a strong defence industry so ukraine can produce military equipment and ammunition herself. stand can produce military equipment and ammunition herself.— ammunition herself. and if there is ammunition herself. and if there is a post-putin _ ammunition herself. and if there is a post-putin russian _ ammunition herself. and if there is a post-putin russian government, | ammunition herself. and if there is i a post-putin russian government, are a post—putin russian government, are there guarantees for them too? are they bound into the security arrangement, do you think? for ukraine it _ arrangement, do you think? for ukraine it will _ arrangement, do you think? ft?“ ukraine it will be a permanent security guarantee, but i think the only real security guarantee you can provide in the long term would be nato membership. itlata provide in the long term would be nato membership. nato membership? nato membership. nato membership? nato membership _ nato membership. nato membership?

nato membership for— nato membership. nato membership? nato membership for ukraine. - nato membership. nato membership? nato membership for ukraine. i - nato membership. nato membership? nato membership for ukraine. i think. nato membership for ukraine. i think the time has come now to extend an invitation to ukraine to join nato. personally i think it should be extended at the nato summit in vilnius injuly this year but if that cannot be achieved then at least a clear pathway towards membership of nato should be outlined at the nato summit in vilnius. and then we should add until ukraine canjoin nato, ukraine will need security guarantees. thank ou ve will need security guarantees. thank you very much _ will need security guarantees. thank you very much indeed _ will need security guarantees. thank you very much indeed for _ will need security guarantees. thank you very much indeed forjoining us on newsnight. it's 15 months now since the ferry operator p&o sacked 800 staff without notice, replacing them with foreign workers paid below the minimum wage. that achieved the rare feat of uniting trade unions and a conservative prime minister in their disdain. the then pm borisjohnson told the commons at the time: "it looks to me as though the company has broken the law".

he promised action and said that p&o wouldn't get away with it. but 15 months on, what's happened? nick has been investigating. through an early summerhayes a familiar routine. slowly but surely a p&0 familiar routine. slowly but surely a p&o ferry heads to the high seas. all a far cry from one year ago when nearly 800 seafarers were summarily sacked, many while at sea, to be replaced by overseas agency workers. that day begun as a normal day at sea like any other in the job i loved and in an industry i loved. and we were told by an agent and security teams that our jobs and we were told by an agent and security teams that ourjobs were no more. security teams that our “obs were no more. �* security teams that our “obs were no more. . . , , security teams that our “obs were no more. . . , ., ., more. and necessary act to save a cherished company _ more. and necessary act to save a

cherished company said _ more. and necessary act to save a cherished company said p80 - more. and necessary act to save a cherished company said p80 will i more. and necessary act to save a . cherished company said p80 will stop it looks cherished company said p8o will stop it looks to me, as though the company concerned has broken the law and we will be taking action therefore. an act of vandalism, came therefore. an act of vandalism, came the retort from government and unions, who said in unison, this cannot stand. since then basic compensation but no criminal prosecutions over allegations that p80 had prosecutions over allegations that p8o had failed to provide the correct notification. p80 had failed to provide the correct notification.— correct notification. there is absolutely _ correct notification. there is absolutely no _ correct notification. there is absolutely no doubt - correct notification. there is absolutely no doubt that. correct notification. there is absolutely no doubt that we | correct notification. there is - absolutely no doubt that we weren't required to consult with the unions. we chose not to do that. the required to consult with the unions. we chose not to do that.— we chose not to do that. the p80 boss admitted _ we chose not to do that. the p80 boss admitted failing _ we chose not to do that. the p80 boss admitted failing to _ we chose not to do that. the p80 boss admitted failing to follow - we chose not to do that. the p80| boss admitted failing to follow the law in a different area, not consulting unions, which is not a criminal offence. a civil investigation has been launched by the insolvency service. p8o says there is what it calls a less than remote possibility of an economic outflow there.

were it to find sufficient evidence of wrongdoing it could apply to court for it to stop trading. it could also launch proceedings that could also launch proceedings that could disqualify company directors for 15 years if there is sufficient evidence of misconduct. no decisions have been taken. p8o ferries told newsnight it is fully cooperating with the insolvency service civil investigation. a spokesperson added that the criminal investigation concluded last september with no action being taken against them. nothing at all has happened. ads, action being taken against them. nothing at all has happened. a long servint nothing at all has happened. a long serving p&0 — nothing at all has happened. a long serving p80 chef— nothing at all has happened. a long serving p80 chef who _ nothing at all has happened. a long serving p80 chef who lost - nothing at all has happened. a long serving p80 chef who lost his - nothing at all has happened. a long serving p80 chef who lost his job i nothing at all has happened. a long serving p80 chef who lost his job is| serving p8o chef who lost his job is still angry. serving p80 chef who lost his “ob is still am . , . ,, serving p80 chef who lost his “ob is stillant . , j~:: :: still angry. p80 ferries sacked 800 seafarers without _ still angry. p80 ferries sacked 800 seafarers without notice _ still angry. p80 ferries sacked 800 seafarers without notice because i seafarers without notice because they knew that they could exploit they knew that they could exploit the uk's shamefully weak employment laws. �* the uk's shamefully weak employment laws. . . ., the uk's shamefully weak employment laws. ., , ., the uk's shamefully weak employment laws. . ., , ., , laws. and john lansdown is frustrated _ laws. and john lansdown is frustrated with _ laws. and john lansdown is frustrated with the - laws. and john lansdown is - frustrated with the government. they

have actually — frustrated with the government. tie: have actually made themselves frustrated with the government. ti91 have actually made themselves look incredibly weak by not taking any action, by not standing up for working people of this country. we have been really let down by the political class in this country. those sackings came as a devastating blow to p80 seafarers here in dover and at other ports across the country. they lost their livelihoods and they watched a company condemned but then allowed to continue. and the repercussions, well, they are being felt way beyond here. labour is highly critical of the insolvency service. ,:, : , is highly critical of the insolvency service. _ , : service. the insolvency service has been clear— service. the insolvency service has been clear that _ service. the insolvency service has been clear that there _ service. the insolvency service has been clear that there is _ service. the insolvency service has been clear that there is the - been clear that there is the possibility for a civil prosecution, which _ possibility for a civil prosecution, which i _ possibility for a civil prosecution, which i welcome, but i find it baffling — which i welcome, but i find it baffling that more than a year later after it _ baffling that more than a year later after it being commenced, it is still ongoing and they need to answer— still ongoing and they need to answer why the investigation is still ongoing when the facts are pretty— still ongoing when the facts are pretty clear. i also think it's not good _ pretty clear. i also think it's not good enough they didn't take a criminal— good enough they didn't take a criminal prosecution on the basis that the — criminal prosecution on the basis that the law hadn't been properly tested _ that the law hadn't been properly tested. that's the job of the court

to test— tested. that's the job of the court to test that law and it would have been _ to test that law and it would have been a _ to test that law and it would have been a pretty good test case for it. ithink— been a pretty good test case for it. l think most— been a pretty good test case for it. i think most people watching this sa-a i think most people watching this saga unfold over the last year will be utterly— saga unfold over the last year will be utterly horrified that a man in charge _ be utterly horrified that a man in charge of— be utterly horrified that a man in charge of a — be utterly horrified that a man in charge of a very big british business _ charge of a very big british business can come to the mother of all parliaments and boast he broke the law— all parliaments and boast he broke the law and absolutely nothing has been done about it. | the law and absolutely nothing has been done about it.— been done about it. i remember in that committee _ been done about it. i remember in that committee where _ been done about it. i remember in that committee where peter- that committee where peter hebblethwaite attended, i was disgusted, frankly. ads, hebblethwaite attended, i was disgusted, frankly. a conservative mp who questioned _ disgusted, frankly. a conservative mp who questioned the _ disgusted, frankly. a conservative mp who questioned the p80 - disgusted, frankly. a conservative mp who questioned the p80 boss| disgusted, frankly. a conservative l mp who questioned the p80 boss at the now famous hearing, believes the government is acting after changing the law to ensure the minimum wage is paid to seafarers on regular routes into the uk. i is paid to seafarers on regular routes into the uk.— routes into the uk. i think the government — routes into the uk. i think the government has _ routes into the uk. i think the government has actually - routes into the uk. i think the government has actually done routes into the uk. i think the - government has actually done quite a lot in respect of the powers which it has. it has brought in legislation, it has looked to deal with some of these issues. but we need to bear in mind that the uk government can only legislate in the territory which is the uk, so that

applies to uk waters. the challenge of course is how that can happen outside of uk waters. some of the levers and so on that the government put in place as part of that piece of legislation were very much designed to i think grasp some of theseissues designed to i think grasp some of these issues at best it can. {jut these issues at best it can. 0ut into the world, _ these issues at best it can. 0ut into the world, a _ these issues at best it can. out into the world, a p80 ferry heads into the world, a p8o ferry heads off to the continent, a bruised brand leaving behind bruised lives. studio: nick watt with that report. a russian hacking collective called clop is threatening to reveal the payroll details of 100,000 employees next wednesday unless a ransom is paid. those people work for companies including british airways, boots, and, full disclosure, include many of us here at the bbc. this type of attack, which targeted a loophole in the payroll company's software, has in some other cases resulted in the hackers being paid off.

those who did that are understandably coy about it. by contrast, hackney council, targeted in a 2020 cyber crime, refused to pay but has spent over £12 million trying to put right the damage. here's ben. this week, it emerged that a number of large uk employers, including boots, british airways and the bbc, have been affected by a major hack of employees' data. now there's a demand for ransom believed to be from a cybercrime gang based in russia. the group posted a notice on the dark web — that's sites only accessible via specialised web browsers — telling targeted companies to e—mail them before the 14th ofjune, or their stolen data would be published. the data could then be used by other cyber criminals to target the employees whose data security has been compromised. this follows a global 2017 ransomware attack known as wannacry, which affected more than 80 nhs

trusts and almost one in ten gp practices. ransomware is a type of malware that blocks a victim's access to their data until a ransom is paid. this latest attack is somewhat different in that the data has already been extracted, but the principle — money for illicitly hacked data — is obviously similar. how common is this kind of cybercrime? increasingly so is the depressing answer. here's one estimate for the annual number of ransomware attacks worldwide — almost half a billion last year — less than 2021, but still well up on years before that. how often do ransoms get paid? a recent survey by the cybersecurity firm fortinet found that of the organisations that experienced a ransomware incident, 71% said they paid at least a portion of the demanded ransom. in 2021, the world's largest meat processing company, america'sjbs foods, paid the equivalent of $11 million in ransom.

colonial pipeline, which carries around half of the us�*s east coast supply of diesel, petrol and jet fuel, did the same that year — paying out $4.4 million after a cyber attack disrupted its operations. now, it's not illegal to pay cyberattackers, but security authorities strongly discourage it, on the ground that it funds criminals and encourages the practice. the nhs didn't pay a ransom in 2017, but the government estimates that the episode ended up imposing a cost of £92 million in lost output and it costs. a separate survey by another cybersecurity firm called proofpoint suggested that uk firms were more likely to be prepared to pay to get back data, with 82% of british firms in this category versus the global average of 58%. so why might this be? well, some analysts argue this is actually a good sign — showing the relative preparedness of uk firms for cyberattacks. they're well organised and for us,

that's a great sign. it does mean that companies are taking the threat of ransomware very, very seriously, they're thinking it through, they're working out how they can deal with it. and they've got the plan ready so, when such an incident like this one crops up, they know what they have to consider and the risks involved in that. but doesn't that preparedness to pay potentially make uk firms more likely to be targeted in the first place? is paying hackers really ever a sensible move? i think everything has to be on the table. every possibility has to be considered and it has to be considered thoroughly, you know, on its merits. but the reality is most organisations will do everything they can not to have to do that. though whether that relative preparedness of uk firms to, if necessary, pay a cyber ransom will provide much comfort to those who get affected by these facts is very open to question.

who get affected by these hacks is very open to question. we'rejoined now by the labour mp meg hillier. she's the chair of the public accounts select committee who investigated the hacking of the nhs in 2017. she's also an mp in hackney in east london. in 2020, the local authority was victim of an attack that took out many of its services. i'm alsojoined by drew perry, chief innovation officer from ontinue, a cybersecurity consultancy. welcome to you both. meg hillier, from your knowledge of what happened with the nhs and hackney attacks, how much havoc will this cause for the organisations concerned and is it even been put right yet in those organisations?— organisations? taking hackney, it hat-ened organisations? taking hackney, it happened in _ organisations? taking hackney, it happened in october _ organisations? taking hackney, it happened in october 2020 - organisations? taking hackney, it happened in october 2020 in - organisations? taking hackney, it happened in october 2020 in the | happened in october 2020 in the middle of covid and it hasn't worked out yet, it has cut havoc for constituents of mine and the council has done a good job in reinventing in some cases, moving over to new

programmes and so on, and they had to check every database to check the data is not corrupted before they moved to new systems so it has been really challenging. to put it in simple terms, that means people not being able to pay their council tax, being able to pay their council tax, being hit with big arrears when they can. people moving and finding housing benefit can't be paid because their circumstances change. they did clever workarounds working with national governance and the cybersecurity centre but it is still going on now in 2023. as for wannacry, there are big issues there, it took three hours before there, it took three hours before the nhs got to grips with how to deal with that and in that case all the systems went down, so the systems they needed to communicate with were down and they had to resort to whatsapp. the recovery system programmes didn't work because they needed e—mail do that. drew perry, we heard from ben chu, an awful lot of british companies, 82% by one estimate, pay the money. yes, that is the sad reality of it.

they— yes, that is the sad reality of it. they pay— yes, that is the sad reality of it. they pay the money. and yes, that is the sad reality of it. they pay the money.— yes, that is the sad reality of it. they pay the money. and what do we do about that? _ do about that? the strong side is, make it illegal to pay. _ the strong side is, make it illegal to pay. but— the strong side is, make it illegal to pay, but that would be incredibly hard to— to pay, but that would be incredibly hard to enforce. these companies pay because _ hard to enforce. these companies pay because they don'tjust hard to enforce. these companies pay because they don't just keep calm, they panic. — because they don't just keep calm, they panic, and that is the reality. you panic— they panic, and that is the reality. you panic in— they panic, and that is the reality. you panic in a situation you are not prepared _ you panic in a situation you are not prepared for. — you panic in a situation you are not prepared for, so if you do not have a robust _ prepared for, so if you do not have a robust plan to react and respond appropriately at the right time, you are more _ appropriately at the right time, you are more likely tojust pay. but are more likely to “ust pay. but they might h are more likely tojust pay. ibiii they might also pay because the multi—million pound bill that has been run up at hackney, trying to make this right, might be the more expensive option. it might be cheaper to... 7 cheaper to... ? possibly, it cheaperto... ? possibly, it depends cheaper to... ? possibly, it depends on how well you negotiate with the ransomware operators. — you negotiate with the ransomware operators, which again, you probably should _ operators, which again, you probably should not— operators, which again, you probably should not do. but operators, which again, you probably should not do— should not do. but again, this was a hute should not do. but again, this was a huge smash — should not do. but again, this was a huge smash and _ should not do. but again, this was a huge smash and grab _ should not do. but again, this was a huge smash and grab operation. - huge smash and grab operation. huge quantities of data were hoovered up via a relatively unsophisticated attack method that became _ unsophisticated attack method that became more sophisticated quickly and then— became more sophisticated quickly and then has escalated into the situation — and then has escalated into the situation we are in now. |

and then has escalated into the situation we are in now. i guess this is part _ situation we are in now. i guess this is part of — situation we are in now. i guess this is part of the _ situation we are in now. i guess this is part of the online - situation we are in now. i guess this is part of the online world, | situation we are in now. i guess l this is part of the online world, of putting so much stuff online, in the cloud. what are the things, realistically, that the uk could do reasonably quickly, the thing is within reach, to reduce vulnerability? the national cyber security centre has been established now. the government started looking at this and doing it centrally in 2010, so it is getting better, but we have been looking a lot on the committee recently about digital change across government. there are lots of legacy systems. there are people buying old computers on ebay because they have the right technology to use it. these are back doors into lots of systems, so there is big challenges, and the government is trying to move to microsoft on the cloud, and there is a lot of talk of that, and we think they are moving in the right direction, but it is not fast. there are so many old legacy systems. that is government, and it reaches right down to a lot of very local organisations, everything from the nhs and schools all the way out, really. so then you have got

citizens, which is another matter, which andrew is probably more expert on. == which andrew is probably more expert on. -- drew. from - on. -- drew. - from a government on- -- drew- — from a government perspective, we have good _ from a government perspective, we have good schemes, we have cyber essentials. — have good schemes, we have cyber essentials, and a scheme to help businesses of all sizes to get the basics _ businesses of all sizes to get the basics right, get the right controls in place _ basics right, get the right controls in place to— basics right, get the right controls in place to prevent this type of situation — in place to prevent this type of situation occurring. so a lot has happened — situation occurring. so a lot has happened in that space over the last few ears. , :, , :, few years. does moving things to the cloud make it — few years. does moving things to the cloud make it harder, _ few years. does moving things to the cloud make it harder, with _ few years. does moving things to the j cloud make it harder, with passwords and things like that? hat and things like that? not necessarily _ and things like that? not necessarily harder. - and things like that? not necessarily harder. moving to cloud is not _ necessarily harder. moving to cloud is not the _ necessarily harder. moving to cloud is not the security solution here, because you can introduce risk and problems— because you can introduce risk and problems of moving to the cloud if also not _ problems of moving to the cloud if also not done correctly, so the cloud — also not done correctly, so the cloud is— also not done correctly, so the cloud is not secure by default, and it also— cloud is not secure by default, and it also needs protection and prevention controls as well. so it helps. _ prevention controls as well. so it helps, because it deals with legacy systems. _ helps, because it deals with legacy systems, and keeping things up—to—date, like patching, keeping things— up—to—date, like patching, keeping things secure that way, but again, it still— things secure that way, but again, it still has— things secure that way, but again, it still has to be done in a measured and managed way with the help of— measured and managed way with the help of experts and service providers that know what they are doing _

providers that know what they are doing we — providers that know what they are doint. ~ . : . . providers that know what they are doint. ,: ,, , doing. we discussed the possibility of makint doing. we discussed the possibility of making illegal _ doing. we discussed the possibility of making illegal the _ doing. we discussed the possibility of making illegal the paying - doing. we discussed the possibility of making illegal the paying of- of making illegal the paying of ransoms. would there be a carrot rather than stick approach, in the sense of a guarantee scheme or something like that for small companies to stop them paying, two in some way indemnify them, like an insurance scheme? could that workable?— insurance scheme? could that workable? �* ~ :, :, , workable? i can't think of anywhere in the world — workable? i can't think of anywhere in the world that _ workable? i can't think of anywhere in the world that has _ workable? i can't think of anywhere in the world that has got _ workable? i can't think of anywhere in the world that has got a - workable? i can't think of anywhere in the world that has got a system | in the world that has got a system that would work. i think making it illegal would be very challenging, that would be challenging too. what we know is that there are gaps in systems, and if, for instance, you are running a large hospital, you've got lots of pressures on your budget. you are also trying to recruit the right cyber security people, but everybody is a cyber security specialist, and we looked at this more generally, notjust on theissue at this more generally, notjust on the issue of wannacry, we were asking what help consumers were being given. we were sure there were bbc employees accessing through their personal devices, which could

be back doors into the system. asking for a friend, as it were, last word, drew, how worried should we be about the this hack and the possibility of revelations on wednesday? i think no more worried than any other— i think no more worried than any other day— i think no more worried than any other day from the other cyber attacks — other day from the other cyber attacks that occur all the time. the same _ attacks that occur all the time. the same attack doubling advice is given to everyone. use a credit monitoring service _ to everyone. use a credit monitoring service to _ to everyone. use a credit monitoring service to detect any fraudulent activities — service to detect any fraudulent activities. enable multifactor authentication across all your online — authentication across all your online accounts to prevent them being _ online accounts to prevent them being potentially taken over. but the worry— being potentially taken over. but the worry level should always stay the worry level should always stay the same. — the worry level should always stay the same, because these attacks sadly— the same, because these attacks sadly happen all the time. thank— sadly happen all the time. thank you both indeed for that sage advice. now ——... you may have heard of gateway drugs, but what about gateway instruments? both might be found at school but the humble recorder, that simple device that guided millions of fumbling fingers towards the joys of music, is in danger of becoming extinct. fewer than one in eight children now play the recorder at school, an 80% drop over the past decade.

in a moment, we'll discuss what's been happening to school music teaching, but first, we're going to hear now from the palissander quartet playing tarantella napoletana. music: tarantella napoleta na.

awesome! miriam monaghan, please come over. you are the leader of the group. can you give us an idea of what is going on in schools? why this was drop in the number of people playing the recorder? i know this statistic of 80% drop comes— i know this statistic of 80% drop comes from cheatham school of music, but we _ comes from cheatham school of music, but we have _ comes from cheatham school of music, but we have seen nationwide drops in music— but we have seen nationwide drops in music opportunities and instrumental playing _ music opportunities and instrumental playing i_ music opportunities and instrumental playing. i think there are a number of reasons — playing. i think there are a number of reasons. funding cuts post covid, but what _ of reasons. funding cuts post covid, but what is really important to our guartet _ but what is really important to our guartet is — but what is really important to our quartet is promoting this idea of the recorder being the perfect solution — the recorder being the perfect solution to this crisis in music

education _ solution to this crisis in music education. is solution to this crisis in music education-— solution to this crisis in music education. , : :, , :, :, , education. is it the case that may be other instruments _ education. is it the case that may be other instruments are - education. is it the case that may i be other instruments are becoming more popular, or is it an overall steep drop in the teaching of music yeah i do think that some the stigma post yeah i do think that some the stigma iosi :, , , , :, post covid, with the issues of producing _ post covid, with the issues of producing aerosols _ post covid, with the issues of producing aerosols and - post covid, with the issues of. producing aerosols and playing post covid, with the issues of - producing aerosols and playing wind instruments may be a contributor, but really. — instruments may be a contributor, but really, we are talking about across — but really, we are talking about across the _ but really, we are talking about across the board, we are seeing much lower— across the board, we are seeing much lower numbers of instrumental playing. — lower numbers of instrumental playing, and i really think that stems— playing, and i really think that stems back to the recorder. the recorder— stems back to the recorder. the recorder resort of the key starting point _ recorder resort of the key starting point for— recorder resort of the key starting point for so — recorder resort of the key starting point for so many children across the country, and if we remove that, we lose _ the country, and if we remove that, we lose the — the country, and if we remove that, we lose the progression of the way up we lose the progression of the way up through— we lose the progression of the way up through schools, through various different— up through schools, through various different instruments and different kinds _ different instruments and different kinds of— different instruments and different kinds of music experiences. how far is it a budgetary _ kinds of music experiences. how far is it a budgetary issue, _ kinds of music experiences. how far is it a budgetary issue, do _ kinds of music experiences. how far is it a budgetary issue, do you - is it a budgetary issue, do you think, for the schools you are working on, or used to, i should say? working on, or used to, i should sa ? :, ,: , working on, or used to, i should sa? :, ,: :, working on, or used to, i should sa ? :, ,: :, :, ~ say? for the schools i am working on, of say? for the schools i am working on. of course. _ say? for the schools i am working on, of course, budget _ say? for the schools i am working on, of course, budget is _ say? for the schools i am working on, of course, budget is a - say? for the schools i am working on, of course, budget is a big - on, of course, budget is a big issue. — on, of course, budget is a big issue. both _ on, of course, budget is a big issue, both for the schools themselves. we know from the teachers' — themselves. we know from the teachers' strike that there are many budget— teachers' strike that there are many budget issues there. from the

revision— budget issues there. from the revision of— budget issues there. from the revision of music services, whether funding _ revision of music services, whether funding has— revision of music services, whether funding has been revoked and