for you at the top of the hour as newsday continues, straight after hardtalk. welcome to hardtalk from cape town. i'm stephen sackur. south africa is a land of contrasting emotion. there's residual pride at the success of the struggle against apartheid. there's also deep frustration at the failings of the post—liberation political leadership. and those contrasting emotions are fertile territory for political satire. my guest today isjonathan shapiro, best known by his pen name zapiro. he is south africa's most prominent, most controversial political cartoonist. so, amid all of its troubles, is south africa able to laugh at itself?

welcome to hardtalk. jonathan shapiro, better known by the pen name zapiro, welcome to hardtalk. thank you. well, it's a great pleasure to meet you, and i want to begin with something you said a few years ago. you said, "moral outrage is what drives a cartoonist." you've been at this cartooning for pretty much four decades. can you maintain outrage for four decades? you can. laughter when i was doing five or six cartoons a week, i would sometimes wonder what the hell i'm going to do today, and you wake up in the morning and the news — itjust keeps coming. it would happen to cartoonists everywhere in the world

because that's what drives all of us, i'm sure. anyone who takes this craft, or this genre of communication seriously. but in a place like south africa, the news just hits you from every every angle every day at an unbelievable rate. i wonder whether there's something personal about this outrage, which clearly developed quite young in you. you had a lot of trauma in your family, in your life because your mother, luckily, fled — she survived the nazis in eastern europe. do you think that background has something to do with your sensibility? i think it has in the sense that my mother communicated to us something that i find very important. she was... i think thejewish diaspora, there's been sort of a fairly unqualified, almost unqualified support for israel, for example. and my mother taught us that never

again meant never for everybody, not just never forjews. but i don't think i had a sort of traumatic... i don't feel the trauma in my youth. it was just something, the sort of values that my parents communicated that i feel were important. so i understood that we were living in an evil society during apartheid and i knew i would like to do something about it. but i never really did anything for quite a long time. what turned me into an activist was being conscripted into the army. and you were a leftist, a white south african serving in a military force which was clearly missioned to maintain this repressive racist apartheid regime. exactly. i was a leftie in the making. i hadn't really done anything

to speak of except for a few posters and whatever, but when that moment came that that felt sort of catalytic for me and ijust... so this is where the drawing and the moral outrage really came together? that's right. i suddenly thought, well, i'm going to have to go to this damn damn army because i didn't have the money or the wherewithal to leave the country. it was six years�* jail if you refuse, if you became a conscientious objector. so i became what some people call a conscientious noncombatant. but while i was in the army, the united democratic front formed. that was sort of like the anc national congress, but above ground, and ijoined while i was in the army. i almost immediately got arrested, which freaked the army out even more and they sent military observers to the trial. i was convicted, a small conviction,

the first people to be convicted i was convicted — it was a small conviction — the first people to be convicted of illegal gathering in cars, which is also funny. i was quite public about it and ijust said, "to hell with all of this, i now want to be an activist and use my cartoons "of this, i now want to be an activist and use my cartoons "to actually do something." and so i became an activist cartoonist while i was in the army, which was really strange. that is strange and you clearly had a gift for it, so let's fast forward to the post—1994 period, when of course, apartheid has successfully been defeated, it's dismantled. nelson mandela becomes the figurehead leader of a liberated south africa. were there certain things for you that, because of your background, that were always off—limits? particularly, i think of the persona and the personality of nelson mandela himself. was he somebody that, for you as a cartoonist, whatever outrage you were feeling for other things, you would never really go

for the jugular with mandela? actually not true. i would go for thejugular, yes. i didn't go for the jugular, but i did critical cartoons as early as 1994, the first year of his presidency. by 1995, i had a cartoon of him with a halo that was slipping. did you get a message from him saying, "what are you doing?"? no, absolutely not. mandiba was really different. in fact, the most powerful moment for me as a cartoonist ever was in 1998, four years into mandela's presidency and i get a phone call from the president's office. was in 1998, so four years into mandela's presidency, and i get a phone call from the president's office. i don't know who was on the line, i thought, maybe... then a woman's voice said, "hold on for president mandela." and then i thought "no, maybe this is one of my friends playing around because he's not

going tojust phone me." and then he comes on and says, "hello, is that zapiro?" i say yes. suddenly i realised it was actually him. and he says "this is president mandela. and he says, "this is president mandela. "i'm very upset with you." so i thought, "oh my god, this is it. "this is it. "he is pissed off about something." and then i said "i'm sorry, what have i done?" and then i said, "i'm sorry, what have i done?" and he said, "oh, no, ijust saw that your cartoons would not be reproduced in the cape argus any more," and he loved to see the cartoons. and i had met him in 911, so i was speechless for a few seconds and then i said to him, "i really want to say something. "i'm just amazed that you called me personally, "but even more so because in the four years since i met you, "you would've seen the cartoons becoming more and more critical of the anc and of government," and he said, "oh,

but that is yourjob." and for me, thatjust personified that amazing ability of his to take criticism and to see the importance of criticism, of cartooning, of good journalism in the country. and that puts him head and shoulders above most politicians, most statesmen. let's talk now about your relationship with more recent south african leaders. in particular, i want to focus onjacob zuma. and in particular, i want to focus onjacob zuma, cos it's one thing to draw a leader with a slipping halo. your treatment of zuma was on a different scale. and most people in south africa will think of your characterisation of zuma with a showerhead coming out of the top of his head. it became a huge thing in this country. what was it about? in 2006, when zuma was already embroiled in controversy around

corruption charges, he suddenly got a rape charge against him. under cross examination, he admitted that he actually knew that the person he had supposedly had this consensual sex with was hiv—positive. and then they said to him, "so did you use protection?" no, he didn't. why not? because he thought he didn't have much chance of infection. now, jacob zuma had been the head of the national aids council when he was deputy president, so this was really absurd. and then it went further. they said, "what did you do next after this supposedly consensual sex? " "i had a shower." why? to lessen his chance of infection. so the shower... i just thought, that's something i can use as a device. but i think it's worth looking

at how you did this. the point is you didn'tjust do this shower drawing once, you did it time and time and time again over many months — in fact, over many years. here's one example. you cannot imagine a man made to look more ridiculous than this image of zuma with his giant shower nozzle over his head. were you, in a sense as a cartoonist, trying to destroy his credibility? of course. i think he was doing a damn fine job of that himself, but i'm then elaborating and doing more with things that he actually said. what a cartoonist is trying to do is to somehow encapsulate for people almost what they're thinking themselves. so i'm not only preaching to the converted, i'm trying to communicate something

to the people in the middle, to people who need clarification or if something is very funny or very shocking, but itjust does hit the mark, that's what i was trying to do. and he's never escaped from that image. but perhaps even darker was your decision to draw this cartoon. you've drawn him, it would seem, as a would—be rapist, a man who was about to force himself upon ladyjustice, the symbol of lady justice. and there are individuals, political figures in south africa who are holding ladyjustice down, aiding and abetting zuma. this is dark. yeah, it is dark, and there were people who were angry at me for portraying him in this gang rape scene about to happen when he'd been acquitted of actual rape.

and the thing is... he sued you. he did sue me, and that was the second time he sued me. the first time was after his rape trial and the second time was after this cartoon. but the reason for that cartoon was not about his, cartoon was not about his... ..about his actual charge of rape. i was sitting at my drawing board and i said to myself, "he is raping thejustice system." and i was thinking about that as a metaphor and i suddenly got that shock when i realised the justice system is personified by a woman. and i made sure it was labelled justice system so it has to be seen as a metaphor. but that of course didn't stop him from suing me in the case went but that of course didn't stop him from suing me.

the case went on for four years right into his presidency and he was determined to go for me. i confronted him about it on radio and he said something very funny, he said, "i saw your cartoons, you are invading my dignity," which is a very strange and interesting version of events. but that's what he saw i was doing. but i wonder whether you were given more pause for thought not by the fact that zuma was infuriated and took you through the legal system, but many other south africans were infuriated — not least women in south africa who basically said, how dare you, as a man, particularly as a white man, use rape as a symbol, a metaphor in what, in the end, is a cartoon, when the reality for south african women, particularly black south african women, is of a crime of rape, which is endemic in this country. how dare you? well, i'm very happy to say that that was not a universal condemnation.

well, i have the quotes here. director of the rape crisis cape town trust kathleen day, in 2017 it was "unconscionable she said in 2017 it was "unconscionable of zapiro to trigger the trauma of thousands of rape survivors." ajournalist, louise ferrera, she said, "jonathan, why are you using our pain, making us relive our trauma to make a political point?" the interesting thing about those quotes is that that is just one part of the debate. the debate was incredibly complex. there were radio discussions, phone—in discussions where women phoned in and said — more black women than white women who were phoning in and saying, "i was shocked when i saw the cartoon and then i actually looked again and thought and looked again and thought," and said... this happened a number of times when i was on radio.

it was hectic. there were people phoning in and saying that kind of thing and then there were other people who said, "this happened to me. i was not only raped and i was gang raped.", but i was gang raped." and i understand that it's a metaphor and that this also represents a condemnation of this kind of patriarchy and violence against women. so, many women who identified with and saw my empathy. so, those who wanted an apology from you, they never got one? i didn't say i'm not sorry, i didn't say things like that. i said i want to hear, i want to listen and i will defend the cartoon, i'll keep defending the cartoon, but i appreciate that not everybody sees it in exactly the same way. but i felt i came out of that particular cartoon 0k. there's one other cartoon,

specific one i want to talk about. i guess you may know what it is. it's 2016 and a cartoon where you portrayed zuma as the it's 2016 it's a cartoon where you portrayed zuma, but you protrayed him as the organ grinder in a visual representation of the classic thing about the monkey and the organ grinder, and the monkey on this occasion was actually the national prosecuting authority chief, a guy called shaun abrahams, who is a south african man of colour. you portrayed him as a monkey. 0k. how could you do that, given all the associations that everybody across the world knows about how white people have characterised black people? i...misread the mood. i... i'm fully aware of the racist troops and i'm fully aware of those i'm fully aware of the racist tropes and i'm fully aware of those horrible racist cartoons that demean

people in ways that i would never do. i thought i was doing something very different and for a while, the cartoon sat in the public domain and people thought it was a very funny cartoon, very interesting cartoon. it was talking about — it said another state organ, another organ grinder�*s monkey, because zuma was busy converting the state organs into mouthpieces organs into his mouthpieces appointed this little puppet. but in the end, it was a black man as a monkey. ok, so, when i said i misread the mood, i thought that by having zuma with the big target and done in fully human form, and then the other guy, shaun abrahams, who is done, you even said, it's a kind of classic cartoon metaphor that's been used many times.

so i had this little guy not done in those classic racist trope, kind of blackface thing at all, butjust as part of this metaphor, and i thought people would see that there is would see that there's no generalised racism or anything like that. and, for a while, it looked like that was the case, and then somebody picked up on it in that way and then there was no way back. and you did apologise? i did. because i apologised... what i said as well, in previous eras, there was a discussion and i could in the same way — as i am still saying that i am and i could in the same way — as i'm still saying, as i'm still saying — i'm not making an apology for the rape ofjustice cartoon. i'm saying that i am listening and there are many ways of saying that, but this one,

i was on a losing wicket, i was on a losing wicket and it was a nightmare. and i nearly got cancelled and i fought my way... did you nearly get cancelled? yes. you're being more careful? i'm being more careful about how i say things, but i'm not going to stop criticising and blunt the power, i would just find other ways of saying the same thing equally hard. but what we're really getting to is the degree to which you are happy to cause offence. oh, yeah. and one more cartoon is the one where you chose to depict the prophet mohammed. now, you did it long after salman rushdie, because they depicted the prophet mohhamed. you must have known that your depiction of the prophet mohammed would lead to an almighty set of problems for you and upset a huge number of your readers.

i did expect it to cause outrage. there was a campaign which, as far as i knew, there were 17 editorial cartoonists around the world who'd signed this thing. ifelt like i was part of a cartooning community and a sort of freedom of expression community of writers, poets, singers, of people who felt very outraged that there are religious demagogues who try to control the way we — the way anyone — can say something if you're not inherent to a particular religion or dogma, notjust islam. but i have done cartoons that have really outraged catholics, protestants, jews, muslims, hindus and buddhists. have i left anyone out? and as far as you're concerned, that's ok? i don't do it as a gratuitous insult. what i do is if there is some reason that i feel that they are preventing freedom

of speech, or if i feel that they are being homophobic, or they are controlling, trying to control women's reproductive rights or any of those things, or being politically reactionary and i'm afraid it happens in all of these religions. so, in a sense, you wanted to make a stand by drawing the prophet mohammed. i wonder whether it was worth it because of course the police then said they uncovered a plot to kill you. it never reached a courtroom, but they said there was a plot out there. you've certainly received death threats alongside all of the legal battles with zuma and everything else. have you reached a point in your career you think, "i don't need this any more"? you know, i'm not claiming... it's scary because look what happened to salman rushdie. i don't even know what my standing by all of these things...

..will bring. but i want to stand by the other cartoonists and writers and other artists and poets and singers who have stood by their beliefs and are trying to fight for freedom of expression. what you are is a cartoonist who has navigated through 29 years of post—apartheid south africa, and in a sense, yourjob and your career is a testament to the fact that freedom and a constitution ultimately are respected in this country. you have not been locked up. absolutely. i often, i rememberagain, about two decades ago when i did a very risque cartoon about bill clinton when he was visiting and some of the american journalists were here. one of them wanted to send this cartoon to his,

or he tried, to send it to his newspaper to try and get it published there. the editors said, "are you out of your mind?" and this journalist said to me, "you guys can get things "published here that we would not be able to publish "in mainstream newspapers in america." so i think freedom of expression is very much alive in this country. there are lots of stresses and strains, but we do shout out and talk out and are able to do so and we haven't been locked up. happened and litigations, suing, whatever — death threats and this and that and the other — but we actually do get that chance. do get that chance and it's fantastic. civil society is very active here and i think that's going to be part of our saving grace, that people won't shut up and people will try to coalesce

again around good things and there are still good people in some of the political parties. so i'm not... we're in a pretty dark place, but we've been in dark places before and i'm really hoping we can come out of this. and you're not leaving that drawing board? not any time soon. jonathan shapiro, �*zapiro�*, thank you so much for being on hardtalk. thank you very much. hello. love it or loathe it, a spell of very warm weather's upon us — but what will be less desirable, i think, is the level of humidity, which will become particularly noticeable over the weekend. one thing that we do need is rainfall, and we haven't had

much of it recently. and we are expecting some showers and thunderstorms through the course of the weekend. let's have a look at the satellite picture — and you'll soon see the sun setting over the storm clouds here out towards the south. initially, these storms will be very well—scattered, so not many of us will actually get them. but it's that humid air to the south that will start arriving, i think, friday night into saturday, and then through sunday. that'll also keep the nights really balmy. so some pleasantly warm evenings on the way, too, but quite sticky at night. so here's the forecast early on friday morning — cloudy skies across eastern scotland, eastern and central england. but out towards the west, it's sunshine, could be a few showers, maybe the odd thunderstorm across the southwest of england early in the morning. and then, through the afternoon, it's pretty much what we've had in the last few days — so the cloud burns back to the coast, and just a few coastal strips there, hanging onto that cloud through the course of the afternoon, where it will be a little on the cool side. so maybe only 1a in newcastle and aberdeen, out towards the west,

it's sunny and warmer, temperatures could be nudging up into the mid—to—high—20s in 1—2 spots on friday. then, friday night into saturday — this is the weather map, a weather front approaching — that'll spark off a few showers and thunderstorms during the day on saturday. starts off really sunny everywhere, but then, that risk of storms i think across parts of england and wales. some of the storms will bring torrential downpours, hail, and gusty winds — but very localised, and many of us will miss it altogether. temperatures low—to—mid—20s, high—20s in 1—2 spots — we could nudge up to 30 on saturday, which will be a little too hot for some. then saturday evening, look at that, at 10pm, temperatures could still be in the high teens, perhaps even in excess of 20 celsius in bigger towns and cities. this is sunday's forecast — lots of sunshine right from the word go, and then, that increasing risk of showers and thunderstorms across some western areas.

how about the temperatures? again, typically in the mid—to—high—20s, so warm enough for most of us. bye— bye.

welcome to newsday. reporting live from singapore, i'm mariko 0i.

the headlines...