voice—over: this is bbc news. we'll have the headlines and all the main news stories for you at the top of the hour, straight after this programme. first, another chance to watch the acclaimed ghanaian writer ama ata aidoo, who died last month, and her 2014 interview with hardtalk. welcome to hardtalk. i am zainab badawi. my guest today is the acclaimed ghanaian writer ama ata aidoo, a former education minister for a brief period under jerry rawlings in ghana, she has done arguably done arguably more than any other writer to depict and celebrate the condition of women in africa, in books such as the dilemma of a ghost and changes. ama ata aidoo is opposed to what she has described

as a "western perception that the african female is a downtrodden wretch". but when you look around the african continent today — girls abducted in nigeria, polygamy re—introduced in kenya, child marriages and the prevalence of gender—based violence — how much is there to celebrate about being female in africa? ama ata aidoo, welcome to hardtalk. thank you very much, zainab. there's a lot of political issues and social affairs in your writings. how much do you see yourself as a writer with a mission? well, now, in retrospect, i suppose i could describe myself as a writer

with a mission. but i never was aware that i had a mission when i started to write, you see. it didn't work — it doesn't work like that. i maen, i don't sit at my desk and say, now i've got to depict this, and depict that. no. first of all, i was rather young when i started writing, so i didn't even have any notion of where my would be read, or how, and stuff like that. so it wasn't a conscious decision, but when did you become aware of the fact that you were really depicting african women in a certain way? well, i mean, isuppose by the time i wrote my first piece, the dilemma of a ghost, i knew that i was writing about women, or writing women the way i knew

them, right? and then people sometimes question me. for instance — "why are your women so strong?" and i say, "but that's the only woman i know." for instance, in 1970, you wrote that play, anowa, about a woman who refuses an arranged marriage. she's very independent, hardworking, articulate and intelligent. is that how you see african women? yes. when they are — but that's how i see african women. but how i see african women. but how can you _ how i see african women. but how can you see _ how i see african women. but how can you see african women like that? ~ ., ., , ., , like that? well, how do you see african women? _ like that? well, how do you see african women? all— like that? well, how do you see african women? all right, - like that? well, how do you see african women? all right, i - african women? all right, i have to tell _ african women? all right, i have to tell you _ african women? all right, i have to tell you that, - african women? all right, i have to tell you that, for. have to tell you that, for instance, you see that african women are likely to be married off at a young age... women are likely to be married off at a young age. . ._ off at a young age... yes. ..and off at a young age... yes. --and we _ off at a young age... yes. ..and we see _ off at a young age... yes. ..and we see female - off at a young age... yes. i ..and we see female genital mutilation in quite a few african countries — maybe 20—30 african countries — maybe 20—30 african countries, as high as 90% in some cases. you see girls falling out of secondary

education more likely than boys. so isn't that the harsh reality of what it is to be an african woman?— reality of what it is to be an african woman? yeah, but it is not how it _ african woman? yeah, but it is not how it is — african woman? yeah, but it is not how it is to _ african woman? yeah, but it is not how it is to be _ african woman? yeah, but it is not how it is to be an - african woman? yeah, but it is not how it is to be an african . not how it is to be an african woman. it is — what african woman. it is — what african woman becomes when —— women become when they are put under such pressures as you are telling me. what i'm saying is that the african woman is like a woman anywhere. but that the african woman is like a woman anywhere.— that the african woman is like a woman anywhere. but can you really say — a woman anywhere. but can you really say that — a woman anywhere. but can you really say that when _ a woman anywhere. but can you really say that when 8596 - a woman anywhere. but can you really say that when 8596 of - really say that when 85% of women in africa are working in vulnerable employment? they grow 80% of the continent's food, and yet in most cases they have no entitlement to that land that they toil on for hours — backbreaking work. what hours - backbreaking work. what ha--ened hours - backbreaking work. what happened to _ hours - backbreaking work. what happened to the _ hours - backbreaking work. what happened to the notion _ hours — backbreaking work. brief happened to the notion of potential? my point is that, when a woman has been socialised into — i don't want to use the word "oppressed", right? — but when a woman has been put under pressure, when

she's been soccised into a certain space and she is being that woman in that space, that doesn't mean that, you know, that's all there is to her. my problem with seeing african women — the words "oppressed" and so on and so forth — it removes any agency from african women. as if we are just there, you know, to be oppressed, to make babies. and mind you — and if you don't mind my saying — it's not all african societies that practice female genital mutilation. and africa is not the only place where it is done. ,, the only place where it is done, ,, ., , , , done. sure. it happens in the middle east _ done. sure. it happens in the middle east as _ done. sure. it happens in the middle east as well. - done. sure. it happens in the middle east as well. yes. - done. sure. it happens in thej middle east as well. yes. but ou middle east as well. yes. but you have _ middle east as well. yes. but you have said _ middle east as well. yes. but you have said that _ middle east as well. yes. but you have said that you're - middle east as well. 19:3 but you have said that you're very averse to this western perception that the african female... perception that the african female- - -_ perception that the african

female... ~ ., , . , ., female... world perception. world perception _ female... world perception. world perception that - female... world perception. world perception that the i world perception that the african female is a downtrodden wretch. you're also seen as the, perhaps, paramount african feminist. do you describe as a feminist? i feminist. do you describe as a feminist?— feminist? i am a feminist, eah. feminist? i am a feminist, yeah- and _ feminist? i am a feminist, yeah. and you _ feminist? i am a feminist, yeah. and you don't - feminist? i am a feminist, yeah. and you don't think| yeah. and you don't think that's a — yeah. and you don't think that's a bit _ yeah. and you don't think that's a bit of— yeah. and you don't think that's a bit of a _ yeah. and you don't think that's a bit of a loaded i yeah. and you don't think. that's a bit of a loaded term that's a bit of a loaded term that's associated with the 19705 that's associated with the 1970s women's liberation movement, women burning their bras in western capitals? so what if bras in western capitals? sr what if they were burning their bras? i mean, the feminists — if you say that a feminist is just somebody, not necessarily a woman, who believes in the potential of women to get to the highest possible level of development given the facilities a society makes available — i mean, just as any man. and being a feminist is not necessarily being a woman feminist. feminism is an

ideology like socialism, like pan—african. and a man, too, can be a feminist. d0 pan-african. and a man, too, can be a feminist.— can be a feminist. do you believe. _ can be a feminist. do you believe, then, _ can be a feminist. do you believe, then, that - can be a feminist. do you - believe, then, that feminism is feminism regardless of wherever you live in the world, whether it's norway or nigeria? 0r you live in the world, whether it's norway or nigeria? or do you believe that there is an african feminism more strongly rooted in the social conditions and culture of these countries? i certainly do believe...- i certainly do believe... what, that there _ i certainly do believe... what, that there is _ i certainly do believe... what, that there is an _ i certainly do believe... what, that there is an african - that there is an african feminism? i that there is an african feminism?— that there is an african feminism? ., ~ feminism? i mean, ithink there is an african— feminism? i mean, ithink there is an african feminism _ feminism? i mean, ithink there is an african feminism that - is an african feminism that does not go around describing itself as an african feminism. what i'm trying to say is that feminism is an ideology, and it depends how it is formulated or how it is negotiated, depends upon the details of the particular environment. 50 particular environment. so there isn't _ particular environment. so there isn't such a thing, in your view, as african feminism, per se?

your view, as african feminism, er se? ., your view, as african feminism, perse? tie. 0k. becausei your view, as african feminism, perse? tie. 0k. because i tell per se? no. 0k. because i tell ou, a per se? no. 0k. because i tell you. a lot— per se? no. 0k. because i tell you. a lot of— per se? lira 0k. because i tell you, a lot of writers, women writers, write about this particular issue. i writers, write about this particular issue.- writers, write about this - particular issue.- let particular issue. i know. let me give _ particular issue. i know. let me give you _ particular issue. i know. let me give you one _ particular issue. i know. let me give you one example i particular issue. i know. let| me give you one example so particular issue. i know. let- me give you one example so that people know. iman hassem, a writer on voices of africa in south africa, a stable of newspapers, "the reality is african feminists do not fit and will not fit into the western context of feminism as it is a middle—upper—class white female phenomenon. traditional western feminists' rights emerge from individuals within the context of their societies." i within the context of their societies. "— within the context of their societies.“ ., �* ., societies." i don't - i mean, i can see _ societies." i don't - i mean, i can see her _ societies." i don't - i mean, i can see her point, _ societies." i don't - i mean, i can see her point, but - societies." i don't - i mean, i can see her point, but i - societies." i don't - i mean, i can see her point, but i don'tj can see her point, but i don't have to agree with it.- can see her point, but i don't have to agree with it. what is the point _ have to agree with it. what is the point she's _ have to agree with it. what is the point she's making, - have to agree with it. what is | the point she's making, then? well, the point she seems to be making is that european western feminists are so different — yeah, they may be white and they may be middle—class and so on and so forth but, you see, if we relaxed a bit and looked

at what we mean when we say a "feminist", then it doesn't really matter. �*feminist", then it doesn't really matter.— really matter. what is a feminist, _ really matter. what is a feminist, then, - really matter. what is a feminist, then, in - really matter. what is a feminist, then, in your| really matter. what is a - feminist, then, in your view? feminist, then, in yourview? well, i've tried to define it here this afternoon. the feminists is anybody — and i mean anybody — who wills, who desires, that women and girls would have whatever is available in society in a way of facilities for their optimum development. you know, given the facilities a society makes available. just as any man, and being a feminist is not necessarily being a woman feminist. feminism is an ideology, like socialism. so whatever men can do? for shelter, for education, for nourishment, yes. are there differences between african and western women? well, there are. there are differences.

to begin with, we were colonised as africa. we were first conquered, and then colonised. that also applies to african males. yes. well, let me put this point to you. from a very celebrated writer and great admirer of yours, chimamanda ngozi adichie. in fact, she said i occupy the space of a black african happy feminist, and she says she is inspired by you. but this is what she also says. "i do find that women in the west have brought "into the idea that somehow they are incomplete "without a man. "women in nigeria" — she is nigerian — "may think they are incomplete without children, "but not necessarily without a man." yes, well, i know what she is saying. and i would agree with her. but i would also point out to her that, in today's nigeria, in today's ghana,

given what the churches are pumping out and how society is being changed, negotiated, very soon we will leave that nice place. young women who are about the same age of my daughter or younger think they are not complete without men. i see what she is saying. yes, and it is also articulated by one black activist, 0wen alik shanadah, an african scholar and film director who says, "feminism is part of warfare against the african family unit, and seeks to erode age—old human values while claiming to serve the interests of it." he supports women's rights, but i am just saying, this idea that you've got family units in africa, developing the idea from earlier, that women value having children in africa, and without the idealistical approach from the west. these ideas are fine, but i think you ought to get

away from some of them, in the sense that the african — at the end of everything else, we are african women. women, and human beings. what i am trying to say is that valuing family, having children, is not the same as assuming that all one's existence on us is to make babies. cows do that too. you see what i am saying? i do see what you are saying. and when people say it that feminists are coming to ruin and when people say that feminists are coming to ruin african life, what exactly do they mean? let me give you an example then. in 1991, you published changes. and you actually won the commonwealth writer's prize. for africa. for best book, for africa, yes, in 1992, so you were celebrated. so you have a love

story chronicling... i think it was �*92 that changes came out. and you won the commonwealth prize the same year, i think. you have chronicled a period of the life of a a western idea of a relationship should be? let me put it as a question to you, are there conflicts in values between western—educated african women going back to live in their societies? but listen, let's set this terminology, western — can we talk about africa, you know, without pushing us into the western tube all the time? i could take, rather,

an adjective like modern, or contemporary. but western? first of all, like everybody everywhere, the life we are living, i thought we were in some kind of a global village. and you know, we are dealing with everybody, apart from... we were colonised, yes. so... what... half of our lives, you know, or quite a big chunk of it, is influenced by the west. but that's not the sum total of who we are. butjust exploring your character in this book. she enters a polygamist unity, doesn't she? we know that polygamy is accented in african society. in kenya, a man can marry as many women as he wants to.

that is... it is ridiculous. it is absolutely painful. because, you see, the difference between a woman like essie in my book, changes, and she is not unique in that sense, because there have been highly—educated african women who have very clearly and willingly and readily entered into polygamous relationships. is that right or wrong, in your view? it is not for me to judge. it is for the individual. because, as far as they are concerned, it is right. and if it is right for them, we have to allow it. western feminists would say they find polygamy something difficult to swallow. especially when it is institutionalised. i am not asking them

to swallow it. i'm just depicting it in the life of one african woman. but it goes on all over africa. this year, what many see as a retrograde step has taken place in kenya. i agree with you. it isa it is a retrograde step. when we look at polygamy, we know perfectly well that the majority of women who are railroaded into it, or whatever, don't have what it takes for them to make independent choices. they don't have the education, the wherewithal, in terms of independence... essie, your character in changes was an educated

woman, entering into a polygamous union. precisely, because, for essie, polygamy offered something fantastic. because, as far as she is concerned... but isn't that women colluding in their own oppression? and i'll tell you what a spokeswoman for the federation of women's lawyers said, "we are happy with the law, "finally, because all marriages are treated equally". they said they weren't happy with the fact a man does not need permission to marrymore wives, but they were happy because it makes these marriages legal. yes, you see, but i disagree with her, because what happens in polygamous relationships is that, depending upon,

not the man's economic position in society, but the woman's, it is really oppressive, it can never be excused. i didn't come out in changes with guns blazing against polygamy, because ijust thought it would be more interesting to let essie go through her own paces and come to her own conclusions about what polygamy is. a man who can marry two wives, can marry three. that is how she got disillusioned. then, the relationship... broke down. let me ask you this, no—one is going to tolerate the oppression of women. no. so, how is it best to counter the oppression of women? legal rights are insufficient. how do you overcome social barriers? educate women. education, education,

education. and i am not the first person to have said that. give women, like men, give them the tools. they will live their own lives. they will negotiate their own position in society. educate women. they will even make fewer children and make people happy. all of these people who are whining about population and african women making too many children, which is not true. but that is the only solution. but how do you overcome social and cultural barriers, patriarchal laws, women can't inherit, property laws. security of land and property comes from your mother's mother... that is the exception

for the whole of africa. security of land and property comes from your mother's mother... that is the exception for the whole of africa. yes, but it is also valid. it is not great in ghana. that is one good example you have given. but if you look at parliamentarians in ghana, you have got 11% of mps in ghana who are women, that is pitiful. it is disastrous. but you see, i don't want to blame other people for our problems. what i'm trying to say is that, although the basis of a kind society, the majority ethnic group, whatever, is matrilineal. .. 0k. ..so when the british came, did they come with their male culture ?

you know what i am trying to say? sure. you bring in the british here, because your grandfather was sadly killed by neo—colonialists. yes. but nevertheless, there was a paradox because you were sent to a wesley girl's high school, a western education. do you think you should have had a more afrocentric approach to education, today, all over africa? of course. and we don't see that always. because, number one, all of those men who have led africa for the last 500 years think they are the only ones who can save africa. but they are not giving africans, us, the people, the right to build alternative structures. but you need to indigenise, don't you? and, celebrate being african. let me tell you, the late african nobel peace prize laureate from kenya, said, it would be good to recapture some of the positive aspects of our culture.

and yet western—educated elites, such as you, yourself, you were taught in the united states... i agree with... is that happening? it is not happening, because the people... listen, i was minister for education, right? in 1982, for 18 months. yes, for 18 months. my point is that what we should be actually looking into is what happens to the ideas that would change africa, and the people who, you know, espouse, articulate such ideas. i mean, what happens to people? my point is that in africa,

maybe like in other places, it is not the people, always the people who want to do the changing who gets near the power. who are in power, 0k. briefly on this point, as you said, you were education minister in 1982. you resigned when you realised you could not make education freely accessible to all. it is still a challenge. broadly speaking. ghana is doing 0k. but still, you find that secondary education is a big issue, not only in ghana but in other african countries. do you think you should have stuck witho politics, rather than gone into your writing? would you have better served ghana and africa had you stuck with politics? you know, i am trying to work myself out of the guilt thing. so, my answer is, no.

i think it was a good idea. it was the better move for me to get out of government and do my writing. but, of course, i am also human, and every now and then i wonder if i should not have stayed. ama ata aidoo, thank you very much indeed for coming on hardtalk. you are most welcome. hello. love it or loathe it, a spell of very warm weather's upon us — but what will be less desirable, i think, is the level of humidity, which will become particularly noticeable over the weekend.

one thing that we do need is rainfall, and we haven't had much of it recently, and we are expecting some showers and thunderstorms through the course of the weekend. let's have a look at the satellite picture — and you'll soon see the sun setting over the storm clouds here out towards the south. initially, these storms will be very well scattered, so not many of us will actually get them. but it's that humid air to the south that'll start arriving, ithink, friday night into saturday, and then through sunday. that'll also keep the nights really balmy, so some pleasantly warm evenings on the way, too, but quite sticky at night. so here's the forecast, early on friday morning, cloudy skies across eastern scotland, eastern and central england. but out towards the west, it's sunshine, could be a few showers, maybe the odd thunderstorm across the southwest of england, early in the morning, and then, through the afternoon, it's pretty much what we've had in the last few

days, so the cloud burns back to the coast, and just a few coastal strips there, hanging onto that cloud through the course of the afternoon, where it will be a little on the cool side. so maybe only 14 in newcastle and aberdeen. 0ut towards the west, it's sunny and warmer, temperatures could be nudging up into the mid—to—high—20s in one or two spots on friday. then, friday night into saturday, this is the weather map, a weather front approaching. that'll spark off a few showers and thunderstorms during the day on saturday. starts off really sunny everywhere, but then that risk of storms, i think, across parts of england and wales. some of the storms will bring torrential downpours, hail, and gusty winds, but very localised, and many of us will miss it altogether. temperatures low—to—mid 20s, high 20s in one or two spots — we could nudge up to 30 on saturday, which will be a little too hot for some. then saturday evening, look at that, at 10pm, temperatures could still be in the high teens, perhaps even in excess of 20 celsius, in bigger towns and cities. this is sunday's forecast — lots of sunshine right from the word go, and then, that increasing risk of showers and thunderstorms across some western areas. how about the temperatures? again, typically in the mid—to—high 20s, so warm enough for most of us.

bye— bye.

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