welcome to hardtalk from cape town. i'm stephen sackur. south africa is a land of contrasting emotion. there's residual pride at the success of the struggle against apartheid. there's also deep frustration at the failings of the post—liberation political leadership. and those contrasting emotions are fertile territory for political satire. my guest today isjonathan shapiro, best known by his pen name zapiro. he is south africa's most prominent, most controversial political cartoonist. so, amid all of its troubles, is south africa able to laugh at itself?

jonathan shapiro, better known by the pen name zapiro, welcome to hardtalk. thank you. well, it's a great pleasure to meet you, and i want to begin with something you said a few years ago. you said, "moral outrage is what drives a cartoonist." you've been at this cartooning for pretty much four decades. can you maintain outrage for four decades? you can. laughter when i was doing five or six cartoons a week, i would sometimes wonder what the hell i'm going to do today, and you wake up in the morning and the news — itjust keeps coming. it would happen to cartoonists everywhere in the world because that's what drives all of us, i'm sure.

anyone who takes this craft, or this genre of communication seriously. but in a place like south africa, the news just hits you from every angle every day at an unbelievable rate. i wonder whether there's something personal about this outrage, which clearly developed quite young in you. you had a lot of trauma in your family, in your life cos your mother, luckily, fled — she survived the nazis in eastern europe. do you think that background has something to do with your sensibility? i think it has in the sense that my mother communicated to us something that i find very important. she was... i think thejewish diaspora, there's been sort of a fairly unqualified, almost unqualified support for israel, for example. and my mother taught us that never again meant never for everybody,

not just never forjews. but i don't think i had a sort of traumatic... i don't feel the trauma in my youth. it was just something, the sort of values that my parents communicated that i feel were important. so i understood that we were living in an evil society during apartheid and i knew i would like to do something about it. but i never really did anything for quite a long time. what turned me into an activist was being conscripted into the army. and you were a leftist, a white south african serving in a military force which was clearly missioned to maintain this repressive, racist apartheid regime. exactly. i was a leftie in the making. i hadn't really done anything to speak of except for a few

posters and whatever, but when that moment came, that felt sort of catalytic for me and ijust... so this is where the drawing and the moral outrage really came together? that's right. i suddenly thought, well, i'm going to have to go to this damn army because i didn't have the money or the wherewithal to leave the country. it was six years' jail if you refuse, if you became a conscientious objector. so i became what some people call a conscientious noncombatant. but while i was in the army, the united democratic front formed. that was sort of like the anc national congress, but above ground, and ijoined while i was in the army. i almost immediately got arrested, which freaked the army out even more and they sent military observers to the trial.

i was convicted — it was a small conviction — the first people to be convicted of illegal gathering in cars, which is also funny. i was quite public about it and ijust said, "to hell with all "of this, i now want to be an activist and use my cartoons "to actually do something." and so i became an activist cartoonist while i was in the army, which was really strange. that is strange and you clearly had a gift for it, so let's fast forward to the post—1994 period, when of course, apartheid has successfully been defeated, it's dismantled. nelson mandela becomes the figurehead leader of a liberated south africa. were there certain things for you that, because of your background, that were always off—limits? particularly, i think of the persona, the personality of nelson mandela himself. was he somebody that, for you as a cartoonist, whatever outrage you were feeling for other things, you would never really go for the jugular with mandela? actually not true.

i would go for thejugular, yes. i didn't go for the jugular, but i did critical cartoons as early as 1994, the first year of his presidency. by 1995, i had a cartoon of him with a halo that's slipping. did you get a message from him saying, "what are you doing?"? no, absolutely not. mandiba was really different. in fact, the most powerful moment for me as a cartoonist ever was in 1998, so four years into mandela's presidency, and i get a phone call from the president's office. i don't know who was on the line, i thought, maybe... then a woman's voice said, "hold on for president mandela." and then i thought "no, maybe this is one of my friends playing around cos he's not going tojust phone me." and then he comes on and says, "hello, is that zapiro?" i said yes. suddenly i realised

it was actually him. and he says "this is president mandela. and he says, "this is president mandela. "i'm very upset with you." so i thought, "oh my god, this is it. "he is pissed off about something." and then i said, "i'm sorry, what have i done?" and he said, "oh, no, ijust saw that your cartoons would not be reproduced in the cape argus any more," and he loved to see the cartoons. and i had met him in 911, so i was speechless for a few seconds and then i said to him, "i really want to say something. "i'm just amazed that you called me personally, "but even more so because in the four years since i met you, "you would've seen the cartoons becoming more and more critical of the anc and of government," and he said, "oh, but that is yourjob." and for me, thatjust personified

that amazing ability of his to take criticism and to see the importance of criticism, of cartooning, of good journalism in the country. and that puts him head and shoulders above most politicians, most statesmen. let's talk now about your relationship with more recent south african leaders, and in particular, i want to focus onjacob zuma, cos it's one thing to draw a leader with a slipping halo. your treatment of zuma was on a different scale. and most people in south africa will think of your characterisation of zuma with a showerhead coming out of the top of his head. it became a huge thing in this country. what was it about? in 2006, when zuma was already embroiled in controversy around corruption charges, he suddenly got a rape charge against him,

and he went through a trial. under cross examination, he admitted that he actually knew that the person he had supposedly had this consensual sex with was hiv—positive. and then they said to him, "so did you use protection?" no, he didn't. why not? because he thought he didn't have much chance of infection. now, jacob zuma had been the head of the national aids council when he was deputy president, so this was really absurd. and then it went further. they said, "what did you do next after this supposedly consensual sex? " "i had a shower." why? to lessen his chance of infection. so the shower... i just thought, "that's something i can use as a device." but i think it's worth looking at how you did this. the point is you didn'tjust do this shower drawing once,

you did it time and time and time again over many months — in fact, over many years. here's one example. you cannot imagine a man made to look more ridiculous than this image of zuma with his giant shower nozzle over his head. were you, in a sense as a cartoonist, trying to destroy his credibility? of course. look, i think he was doing a damn fine job of that himself, but i'm then elaborating. i'm just doing more with things that he actually said. what a cartoonist is trying to do is to somehow encapsulate for people almost what they're thinking themselves. so i'm not only preaching to the converted, i'm trying to communicate something to the people in the middle,

to people who kind of need clarification or if something is very funny or very shocking, but itjust does hit the mark, that's what i was trying to do. and he's never escaped from that image, but perhaps even darker was your decision to draw this cartoon. you've drawn him, it would seem, as a would—be rapist, a man who was about to force himself upon ladyjustice, the symbol of lady justice. and there are individuals, political figures in south africa who are holding ladyjustice down, aiding and abetting zuma. this is dark. yeah, it is dark, and there were people who were angry at me for portraying him in this gang rape scene about to happen when he'd been acquitted of actual rape. and the thing is... and he sued you. he did sue me, and that was

the second time he sued me. the first time was after his rape trial and the second time was after this cartoon. but the reason for that cartoon was not about his... ..about his actual charge of rape. i was sitting at my drawing board and i said to myself, "he is raping thejustice system." and i was thinking about that as a metaphor and i suddenly got that sort of shock when i realised the justice system is personified by a woman. and i made sure it was labelled "justice system" so it has to be seen as a metaphor. but that of course didn't stop him from suing me. the case went on for four years right into his presidency and he was determined to go for me. i confronted him about it on radio and he said something very funny, he said, "i saw your cartoons, you are invading my dignity,"

which is a very strange and interesting version of events. but that's what he saw i was doing. but i wonder whether you were given more pause for thought not by the fact that zuma was infuriated and took you through the legal system, but many other south africans were infuriated — not least women in south africa who basically said, how dare you, as a man, particularly as a white man, use rape as a symbol, a metaphor in what, in the end, is a cartoon, when the reality for south african women, particularly black south african women, is of a crime of rape, which is endemic in this country. how dare you? well, i'm very happy to say that that was not a universal condemnation. well, i have the quotes here.

director of the rape crisis cape town trust kathleen day, she said in 2017 it was "unconscionable of zapiro to trigger the trauma of thousands of rape survivors." ajournalist, louise ferrera, she said, "jonathan, why are you using our pain, making us relive our trauma to make a political point?" interesting thing about those quotes is that that is just one part of the debate. the debate was incredibly complex. there were radio discussions, phone—in discussions where women phoned in and said — more black women than white women who were phoning in and saying, "i was shocked when i saw the cartoon and then i actually looked again and thought and looked again and thought," and said... this happened a number of times when i was on radio. it was hectic. there were people phoning in and saying that kind of thing, and then there were other people who said,

"this happened to me. i was not only raped, but i was gang raped." and i understand that it's a metaphor and that this also represents a condemnation of this kind of patriarchy and violence against women. so, many women who identified with and saw my empathy. so, those who actually wanted an apology from you, they never got one? i didn't say i'm not sorry, i didn't say things like that. i said i want to hear, i want to listen and i will defend the cartoon, i'll keep defending the cartoon, but i appreciate that not everybody sees it in exactly the same way. but i felt i came out of that particular cartoon 0k. there's one other cartoon, specific one i want to talk about. i guess you may know what it is. it's 2016 it's a cartoon

where you portrayed zuma, but you protrayed him as the organ grinder in a visual representation of the classic thing about the monkey and the organ grinder, and the monkey on this occasion was actually the national prosecuting authority chief, a guy called shaun abrahams, who is a south african man of colour. you portrayed him as a monkey. 0k. how could you do that, given all the associations that everybody across the world knows about how white people have characterised black people? i...misread the mood. i... i'm fully aware of the racist tropes and i'm fully aware of those horrible racist cartoons that demean people in ways that i would never do. i thought i was doing something

very different and for a while, the cartoon sat in the public domain and people thought it was a very funny cartoon, very interesting cartoon. it was talking about — it said another state organ, another organ grinder�*s monkey, because zuma was busy converting the state organs into mouthpieces organs into his mouthpieces and he had appointed this little puppet. but in the end, it was a black man as a monkey. ok, so, when i said i misread the mood, i thought that by having zuma with the big target and done in fully human form, and then the other guy, shaun abrahams, who is done... you even said, it's a kind of classic cartoon metaphor that's been used many times. so i had this little guy not done in those classic racist trope,

kind of blackface thing at all, butjust as part of this metaphor, and i thought people would see that there's no generalised racism or anything like that. and, for a while, it looked like that was the case, and then somebody picked up on it in that way and then there was no way back. and you did apologise? i did. because i apologised for... what i said as well, in previous eras, there was a discussion, and i could in the same way — as i'm still saying — i'm not making an apology for the rape ofjustice cartoon. i'm saying that i am listening and there are many ways of seeing it, but this one, i was on a losing wicket and it was a nightmare. and i nearly got cancelled and i fought my way... did you nearly get cancelled?

yeah. you're being more careful? i'm being more careful about how i say things, but i'm not going to stop criticising or blunt the power, i would just find other ways of saying the same thing equally hard. but what we're really getting to is the degree to which you are happy to cause offence. oh, yeah. and one more cartoon is the one where you chose to depict the prophet mohammed. now, you did it long after salman rushdie, the danish cartoonist who ran into huge trouble because they depicted the prophet mohhamed. you must have known that your depiction of the prophet mohammed would lead to an almighty set of problems for you and upset a huge number of your readers. i did expect it to cause outrage. there was a campaign which, as far as i knew, there were 17 editorial cartoonists around the world who'd signed this thing.

ifelt like i was part of a cartooning community and a sort of freedom of expression community of writers, poets, singers, of people who felt very outraged that there are religious demagogues who try and control the way we — the way anyone — can say something if you're not inherent to a particular religion or dogma, notjust islam. but i have done cartoons that have really outraged catholics, protestants, jews, muslims, hindus and buddhists. have i left anyone out? and as far as you're concerned, that's ok? it's not... i don't do it as a gratuitous insult. what i do is if there is some reason that i feel that they are preventing freedom of speech, or if i feel

that they are being homophobic, or they're controlling, trying to control women's reproductive rights or any of those things, or being politically reactionary, and i'm afraid it happens in all of these religions. so, in a sense, you wanted to make a stand by drawing the prophet mohammed. i wonder whether it was worth it because of course the police then said they uncovered a plot to kill you. it never reached a courtroom, but they said there was a plot out there. you've certainly received death threats alongside all of the legal battles with zuma and everything else. have you reached a point in your career you think, "i don't need this any more"? you know, i'm not climbing... it's scary because look what happened to salman rushdie. i don't even know what my standing by all of these things... ..will bring.

but i want to stand by the other cartoonists and other writers and other artists and poets and singers who have stood by their beliefs and are trying to fight for freedom of expression. what you are is a cartoonist who has navigated through 29 years of post—apartheid south africa, and in a sense, yourjob and your career is a testament to the fact that freedom and a constitution ultimately are respected in this country. you have not been locked up. absolutely. i often, i remember, again, about two decades ago when i did a very risque cartoon about bill clinton when he was visiting and some of the american journalists were here. one of them wanted to send this cartoon to his, or he tried, to send it to his newspaper to try and get it published there and the editors said, "are you out of your mind?" and this journalist said to me, "you guys can get things "published here that we would not

be able to publish "in mainstream newspapers in america." so i think freedom of expression is very much alive in this country. there are lots of stresses and strains, but we do shout out and talk out and are able to do so and we haven't been locked up. there have been all kinds of things that happened and litigations, suing, whatever — death threats and this and that and the other — but we actually do get that chance and it's fantastic. civil society is very active here and i think that's going to be part of our saving grace, that people won't shut up and people will try to coalesce again around good things and there are still good people in some of the political parties.

so i'm not... we're in a pretty dark place, but we've been in dark places before and i'm really hoping we can come out of this. and you're not leaving that drawing board? not any time soon. jonathan shapiro, �*zapiro�*, thank you so much for being on hardtalk. thank you very much. hello. sunday was another very warm or even hot day with temperatures peaking at around 32 celsius. that heat and humidity giving rise to some dramatic skies as some thunderstorms kicked off through the afternoon and into the evening. if we take a look back at the radar picture, we can see that we had some storms in northern scotland, some across northern england,

and then this clump of thunderstorms, this quite big organised area of storms that drifted westwards across the midlands towards wales. so as we head through monday, really it's more of the same, more spells of sunshine, but still the chance for some thunderstorms with that heat and humidity, temperatures to start the day between ten and 17 degrees. so a very warm start to the day. quite a muggy start for most, a dry start, but a little bit of rain to clear away from parts of wales, maybe some extra cloud in the far south west and a few showers even from the word go and into the afternoon as the sun heats the land while those big shower clouds will bubble up once again, particularly across parts of southern england into the midlands and wales, some of these thunderstorms could be really quite vicious, with a lot of rain in a short space of time, gusty winds and some hail. western counties of northern ireland, southwest scotland and perhaps more especially the north of scotland, also prone to some of these downpours and thunderstorms. but as ever with these weather set ups, there will be places that fall

through the gaps and stay completely dry. another very, very warm day. temperatures widely the mid to high 20s somewhere could again get to 30 degrees. we will continue to see some big showers and thunderstorms in places during monday evening. many of them fading, though, overnight into tuesday. we'll see some areas of low cloud around some of these western coast. it is another pretty warm night in prospect. and then for tuesday, well, the greatest chance for showers will be found across the western side of the uk. further east, not as many showers, more dry weather, plenty of sunshine. still feeling very warm indeed. highest temperatures at this stage, likely to be down towards the south, up to around 29, possibly 30 degrees for parts of central southern england. as we look deeper into the week, high pressure remains firmly in charge. but as you pick up more of an easterly breeze, well, temperatures will drop backjust a little. still, though, feeling very warm indeed. mostly dry with some sunshine.

welcome to newsday, reporting live from singapore, i'm monica miller. the headlines..

the former first minster of scotland,