resentment pride there is some resentment of the degree of centralisation in london the lack of regional autonomy. my guess today is the mayor of the city, andy burnham, he westminster politics to come here and he is committed to a radical vision, a decentralised, united kingdom. but this is own party let alone the country as a whole ready for his brand of radicalism? andy burnham, welcome to hardtalk. thank you very much- _ welcome to hardtalk. thank you very much- you _ welcome to hardtalk. thank you very much. you have _ welcome to hardtalk. thank you very much. you have had - welcome to hardtalk. thank you very much. you have had six - very much. you have had six ears very much. you have had six years in _ very much. you have had six years in this _ very much. you have had six years in this job _ very much. you have had six years in this job and - very much. you have had six years in this job and you - very much. you have had six i years in this job and you came years in thisjob and you came to it with a very big ambitions. do you think you have made a difference? i

ambitions. do you think you have made a difference? i hope so. i have made a difference? i hope so- i think _ have made a difference? i hope so. i think manchester - have made a difference? i hope so. i think manchester today i have made a difference? i hope so. i think manchester today in | so. i think manchester today in 2023 is different from the city i came to in 2017. you just need to look at the skyline of manchester city centre to see that difference, the city is growing in stature, physically but i think also in terms of its reputation, both in the uk and around the world. this was, obviously the home of industry going back a couple of centuries, hit a decline in the second part of the 20th century, but manchester is most definitely back. and i think there is a lot of energy flowing around the city right now. i flowing around the city right now. , , ., ., ., , now. i guess we had to measure our now. i guess we had to measure your performance _ now. i guess we had to measure your performance against - your performance against promises and you made some key promises, one was on tackling the manchester housing problems but in particular tackling the number of people sleeping rough on the streets, the number of homeless people in the city. if

you look at the latest report from the respected housing charity shelter, they say the number sleeping rough have gone up number sleeping rough have gone up in the last year that the manchester rate of homelessness is far worse than the national average, and as they put it, it is the most problematic city in the north—west of england? so, you have failed? the north-west of england? so, you have failed?— you have failed? no, i don't think so- — you have failed? no, i don't think so. when _ you have failed? no, i don't think so. when you - you have failed? no, i don't think so. when you are - you have failed? no, i don't think so. when you are a i think so. when you are a successful city that brings extra pressures and extra challenges, the commitment i made was on rough sleeping and on rough sleeping, we do account every month, we are holding the numbers, and the high double figures, that position has been maintained through the cost of living crisis. we thought the numbers would go up but they have not and the reason why they have not is as mere i came in and saidi not is as mere i came in and said i wanted to offer everybody forced to sleep rough the chance of a bed every night so we have that scheme place,

its support around 600 people every night in the city region and the point is this, i cannot stop people going onto the street because those are circumstances beyond my control, but i can look you in the eye and say everybody who goes on the street currently, we can offer them accommodation on the same day. i believe that honours the commitment i made, the bigger question of homelessness and housing shortages as something again that i do not have the full means to deliver, on rough sleeping we have made a real difference. sleeping we have made a real difference-— sleeping we have made a real difference. . , , difference. that phrase you use i don't difference. that phrase you use i don't have _ difference. that phrase you use i don't have the _ difference. that phrase you use i don't have the full— difference. that phrase you use i don't have the full means - difference. that phrase you use i don't have the full means to i i don't have the full means to deliver, does that apply to your promises to clean up manchester's air, if you look at manchester today, its record over the last six years is poor and the scheme that was supposed to be put in place this year, a clean air zone, has basically been suspended? this because of the pandemic changed things, so we were required by the government to put in place a scheme to clean

up put in place a scheme to clean up the air across our ten virus because all ten boroughs received a legal direction to act, we worked with the government in good faith but what we found was, through the pandemic, the cost of vehicles shot up, the order books became full so people could not buy vehicles, and what we would not do here is that people with the tax they could not avoid stopping so we went back to the government said, look, this scheme and cannot proceed now because the world has changed, post pandemic, and we are currently in that position where the scheme is under review. ., ., ., . ., , review. you are in a crazy position _ review. you are in a crazy position we _ review. you are in a crazy position we have - review. you are in a crazy position we have signs i review. you are in a crazy - position we have signs across manchester telling people there is going to be a clear zone and the need to be aware they are driving a commercial vehicle of a certain age they will get a charge and those signs are completely redundant now because the scheme is not happening. you are the mayor, you have these excuses but the people of manchester will think this guy has failed? then;r

people of manchester will think this guy has failed?— this guy has failed? they are not excuses, _ this guy has failed? they are not excuses, we _ this guy has failed? they are not excuses, we were - this guy has failed? they are l not excuses, we were required to take measures to clean up the air and have a clean air zone, but we went back and said, we cannot do this without punishing people who are already struggling on a cost of living crisis. it was myjob to stand up to the people of greater manchester and i did that going back to the government saying look, not now and actually we think the right way to nick sarah snook to hit people with a big stick and hit them with taxes they cannot avoid the best way to do it is to do it by incentives, support people who want to make the change to make the change. more broadly there is a big point there, if as the uk or a world community, we try and punish people to net zero with taxes or say, people to net zero with taxes orsay, no people to net zero with taxes or say, no you cannot do that thing, like doing any more, then i think we may not get the level of pace on this journey that we need. i believe in and incentives based approach. it incentives based approach. it depends how you look at a problem like environmental

cleanup, as of the biggest punishment for the people of manchester they are breathing an unacceptably dirty, polluted air? ., ., , , an unacceptably dirty, polluted air? ., . , , �* air? you are implying we're doinu air? you are implying we're doing nothing _ air? you are implying we're doing nothing and - air? you are implying we're doing nothing and that - air? you are implying we're doing nothing and that is i air? you are implying we're i doing nothing and that is true, and greater manchester we are just away from the start of it, the biggest transformation of public transport in england outside of london, in three decades. i've already taken the decision, i am the first mayor in england, outside of london, to take the decision to book buses back back under public control and as it stands today, i am purchasing let trick buses, in large numbers because they will come in to a reform system that starts in september called the b network and my officials tell me the bosses and our ten boroughs are the biggest cause of polluted air and those buses will be changing dramatically later this year. changing dramatically later this year-—

changing dramatically later this ear. �* , this year. are you these days seeinr this year. are you these days seeing yourselves _ this year. are you these days seeing yourselves as - this year. are you these days seeing yourselves as much i this year. are you these days . seeing yourselves as much more of the mayor of manchester, committed and driven by the sense of commitment to place, then you see yourself as andy burnham, the senior labour party politician, in other words as political partisan politics less important to you now, and this commitment to manchester, fundamentally what drives you?— drives you? that is perceptive, absolutely. _ drives you? that is perceptive, absolutely, that's _ drives you? that is perceptive, absolutely, that's the - drives you? that is perceptive, absolutely, that's the way - drives you? that is perceptive, absolutely, that's the way i - drives you? that is perceptive, absolutely, that's the way i do| absolutely, that's the way i do see myself stopping when i came to the end of my 16 year journey in westminster, i tried to advocate for the north of england, within that system and perhaps people may remember, some people may remember alongside others i worked to have the truth told about the hillsborough disaster. the very fact that an entire english city was crying and justice for 20 years, tells nobody at whitehall as far as i could tell was listening, tells you that the north does not get heard in the same way and the

westminster system as other parts of the country. it is parts of the country. it is interesting _ parts of the country. it is interesting to _ parts of the country. it is interesting to me, - parts of the country. it is interesting to me, while| parts of the country. it is interesting to me, while you have been in power in manchester, the conservative party, the enemy, as far as you are concerned in terms of your partisan political colours, the conservative party has made commitments to levelling up, to the northern powerhouse, political programmes they call it. and there are people like michael gove in government that you have said makes important things happen, when michael uses his power to try to get things done, it is a pleasure to work with. so you are now giving this conservative government quite a lot of credit? i government quite a lot of credit? . ._ , credit? i will always give credit? i will always give credit where _ credit? i will always give credit where it _ credit? i will always give credit where it is - credit? i will always give credit where it is due - credit? i will always give - credit where it is due stopping when i left westminster i took a bow that i would notjust play the usual pointscoring game, i said play the usual pointscoring game, isaid publicly, where the government gets it right i will say so. but when they do not i will call them out with all of my political sort of

experience and knowledge and i did that during the pandemic, when they tried to treat greater manchester citizens as second—class citizens, i will never stand for that and i called them out as loudly as i could. know when they get it right i let it my time in westminster and i talk about when i reached across the house to work with theresa may that was when progress gets made. my experience in politics has shown me that. when i came into this role, i decided it was time to do something different, there is no point repeating the pointscoring of westminster through these new devolved structures, i decided to take a place first rather than party first approach. when you speak with a place first perspective you can get authority in what you're saying because you are speaking for everybody here, the way the majority of people here feel, however they vote and i'm conscious the two elections i have stood to be

mayor of greater manchester, people beyond my party have given me their support. so i am ever conscious of that when i speak for the city region, but i think that gives the voice more, if you like, authority because of that place first approach. because of that place first approach-— because of that place first auroach.~ ., approach. what you did say earlier this _ approach. what you did say earlier this year _ approach. what you did say earlier this year which - approach. what you did say earlier this year which was | earlier this year which was interesting in terms of the debate about partisanship and how it works is, earlier this year you said i do not think any of the parties you meant the two main parties, labour and conservative, i don't think either of them are cutting through to the extent that is needed to get through voice to the feelings of that people have at the moment. you said that early this year do you still think that is true, that your party, the labour party is not truly, truly cutting through and giving voice to the feelings of the people of the north—west? i feelings of the people of the north-west?— north-west? i think it was a reflection — north-west? i think it was a reflection of _ north-west? i think it was a reflection of where - north-west? i think it was a reflection of where we - north-west? i think it was a l reflection of where we where last year, and the part of the cycle we are in, the mid—term

cycle, always oppositions will save more and more the closer we get to a general election. but would you expect that in politics what you need especially as an opposition party after the enemy has been in power for a party after the enemy has been in powerfor a number of years, what you need is a big, a galvanising idea? do you think the labour party today has that big, galvanising idea?- big, galvanising idea? yes, i do, but what _ big, galvanising idea? yes, i do, but what was _ big, galvanising idea? yes, i do, but what was that - big, galvanising idea? yes, i| do, but what was that about, big, galvanising idea? yes, i. do, but what was that about, i will come onto it, i also believe people are going back to labour. the polls show that. people are ready to, people want change, i think, the next election is going to be a change in election. i think the galvanising ideas around more devolution, that has been a really... devolution, that has been a really- - -_ really... really? that is a galvanising _ really... really? that is a galvanising idea? - really... really? that is al galvanising idea? powerful eo - le galvanising idea? powerful people and _ galvanising idea? powerful people and places - galvanising idea? powerful people and places to -- i galvanising idea? powerful- people and places to -- approve people and places to —— approve the things that they care

about, i think that is a galvanising idea. there is a lot of unhappiness and we saw this through the brexit referendum, that revealed a sense of alienation, neglect and large parts of the country, i think the idea of giving more places and the people who live in those places more power to change things, i think can be a galvanising idea. i do not think you can run the world top—down in the way it used to be run, that was a very 20th—century idea. i think in the 20th -- 2ist 20th—century idea. i think in the 20th —— 21st century into cities we are sitting in our leading the way in bringing forward new ideas and new thinking. the more you empower these places the more they will do. and actually, that will mean the researcher north of england, people do get excited about that. england, people do get excited about that-— england, people do get excited about that. you know american olitics about that. you know american politics quite — about that. you know american politics quite well, _ about that. you know american politics quite well, look- about that. you know american politics quite well, look at - politics quite well, look at joe biden, joe biden a moderate and centrist democrat has committed $400 billion to his

inflation reduction programme, which essentially is mostly about investment in green technologies. where is the key astana equivalent of such a big idea? ., ., idea? you mentioned it the drive to a — idea? you mentioned it the drive to a green _ idea? you mentioned it the drive to a green economy? | idea? you mentioned it the i drive to a green economy? it has been delayed! but - drive to a green economy? it has been delayed! but that l drive to a green economy? it l has been delayed! but that has to be credible, _ has been delayed! but that has to be credible, it _ has been delayed! but that has to be credible, it has _ has been delayed! but that has to be credible, it has been - to be credible, it has been delayed by a couple of years. is that a great slogan to put on the next election we have a big idea but we're not to do it. �* , ., big idea but we're not to do it. 2 . ._ big idea but we're not to do it. it's a balance, you have to have a big — it. it's a balance, you have to have a big idea _ it. it's a balance, you have to have a big idea that - it. it's a balance, you have to have a big idea that is - have a big idea that is deliverable, and that is the reality of it. if you think about that issue and what it could mean for the north of london, if you were to really proceed with that change could re— industrialise the north of england in a way that brings jobs that will last the rest of this century. now that is a very big prize, it is only the labour party talking seriously on a joe biden like scale, as to how that is actually done.

there is other big proposals out there, there is a commitment from the labour party to renationalise the railways, that is a very welcome commitment. that is a - re welcome commitment. that is a re bi welcome commitment. that is a pretty big idea. _ welcome commitment. that is a pretty big idea, but _ welcome commitment. that is a pretty big idea, but there - welcome commitment. that is a pretty big idea, but there was i pretty big idea, but there was a much big idea in the last labour party manifesto, which wasn'tjust nationalise the rail industry but key utilities. he has walked away from that. utilities. he has walked away from that-— utilities. he has walked away from that. the problem being that manifesto _ from that. the problem being that manifesto to _ from that. the problem being that manifesto to make - from that. the problem being that manifesto to make that i that manifesto to make that point had good ends but too many things and therefore lacked credibility with some people. just to be clear you still support the idea, do you not, of putting back into public ownership key utilities, energy provision, water? in a provision, water? in a realistic _ provision, water? in a realistic way. - provision, water? in aj realistic way. because provision, water? in a. realistic way. because i provision, water? in a - realistic way. because i think we sold off control of the basics in this country. as i say we deregulated bosses, we privatised trains, energy systems and people are paying high prices for energy now because there is not enough

public control over prices. take another example. water, where, again, privatised without the necessary regulatory control. we have reached a position in britain today where people cannot afford buses nor trains, cannot afford buses nor trains, cannot afford energy and we see raw sewage pumped into our rivers and in our seas and tell me that that is a good place to have ended up. we need more public ownership and more public ownership and more public control of essentials. briefly let's discuss brexit. you were a remainer as was keir starmer recently he has said that he is not interested in reopening notjust the debate about whether britain should one day return to the eu that he is not even interested in opening up a debate about whether britain should try to get a deal, a bit like norway or switzerland, where it is an economic area with the eu and joins the customs union, the single market. he does not want

to discuss any of that. is that a mistake? i don't think it is fair, if i am honest. they definitely has been a signalling of a different, less sabre rattling tone. forgive me, but i will give you a quote. britain's future is outside the eu it is not in the single market. it is not in the customs union, it is not in a return to freedom of movement. all those arguments are in the past where they belong. absolutely. we cannot keep rerunning this debate and ignore some of the other issues that need to be addressed. if britain does get into a position where we are constantly debating, we will not move forward. but you mention those things, you can link back to those things. they have been settled in this period that we are in you can have a different relationship with europe than the one we have seen in recent times where it is all about positioning

against the french and challenging the irish government. unhelpful rhetoric when you sit in a position like i do where we want good relationships with ireland, a place that has strong bonds with the north—west of england and we do want to work with our colleagues in germany, as we do. we need to move beyond that phase that we have been in where there is this pointless posturing in europe and get to a more practical space where we get arrangements that work better for people.— get arrangements that work better for people. before we end let's _ better for people. before we end let's talk _ better for people. before we end let's talk about - better for people. before we end let's talk about the - better for people. before we end let's talk about the way| end let's talk about the way the labour party works. you are now looking at it from manchester, not from westminster. but what we see in london and in the party headquarters is an obsession with discipline. jeremy corbyn, for example, the left of the labour party, the leader, as you said, in 2019, led labour to a significant defeat and has been told he cannot fight his

constituency. and people who support him in the party, it seems, are being either rooted out or being told they cannot stand for significant position. do you worry about a witch—hunt being led by stamer and his loyalists? —— starmer and his loyalists? —— starmer and his loyalists? i loyalists? -- starmer and his loyalists?— loyalists? i worry that things become too _ loyalists? i worry that things become too functional - loyalists? i worry that things i become too functional between left and right of the party and i have often felt in my political career that i have lived in the middle of those two groups. i came into politics as somebody who was, if you like, a loyal labour background and arrived in parliament and was a little surprised at times at the ferocity of the to—ing and fro—ing between, if you like, factions on both side of the party and i think the risk in this moment is that the party becomes trapped in that kind of situation and misses people in

the middle who want to focus on what it is we need to do to answer the concerns that people here in greater manchester and beyond have. the focus needs to stop being internal and become relentlessly external and it needs to be about all sides of the labour movement starting to pull in the same direction towards, hopefully, labour victory in 2024. i5 towards, hopefully, labour victory in 2024.— victory in 2024. is there a decree victory in 2024. is there a degree of— victory in 2024. is there a degree of insecurity - victory in 2024. is there a degree of insecurity in - victory in 2024. is there a| degree of insecurity in the leader's office right now? not so long ago you appeared to be blaming unelected people in their 20s and 30s around starmer who think they know it all and think they are the bees knees. you said it would be nice to have support here in manchester from the national office. ~ ., manchester from the national office. . . . ,, , manchester from the national office. . , ,, office. what happens, because i've been there, _ office. what happens, because i've been there, is _ office. what happens, because i've been there, is that - office. what happens, because i've been there, is that there i i've been there, is that there is an anonymous briefing culture in westminster that is one of the most unattractive things about it. have you been

briefed against? recently, yes. why do you think they do that? i am not going to be so poker—faced is to say did not happen in the past. it did happen in the past. it did happen in the brown and the blair governments, it happens but it is not attractive because particularly where you have elected politicians out and trying to do a job, i made the point that i was out doing a positive thing on technical education, a big reform we have bringing through here ending the domination of english education by university and getting focused on technical education. when you are out there it is hard to read some of the stuff in the papers. let's be blunt. do you think some people in the national labour leadership so you something of a threat? you are a high profile figure with the platform here in manchester and they see you as a threat. i don't think so. i said i am standing for a third term and i am. i making preparations to be

here for the long—term. you here for the long-term. you also said — here for the long-term. you also said you _ here for the long-term. you also said you remain - here for the long—term. you also said you remain interested in national office and that if the time was right and conditions were right you would consider another run for the leadership. the difficult thing is that people sometimes in westminster think that i am still talking on the same code the people in westminster. if i ask a direct question, and i hope i have shown it in this interview, i try to answer it honestly and i will not say that i will rule out going back there one day but there is no intention right now. i am focusing on what i am doing here. i am standing for a third term and i do not know if it comes over but i am more energised and happier than what i am doing than i have ever been because of the nature of devolution. sometimes i felt like an outsider in westminster, something of a fish out of water. as somebody from these parts it was not my natural habitat and at times i felt it hard to fit in and in my later years where i was

wanting pursue issues like hillsborough and other issues the way social care is provided, i often found that i could not speak in an interview like this with my own voice in the way that i wanted to speak on the way of toeing the line and voting in a certain way. i feel if you spend a long time in the westminster system it can make you appear a different person than you actually are because you always have to stick to a certain line. the big theme in this interview has been how best to be a different maker in politics and isn't it the truth that despite all you are committed to achieving in manchester, ultimately if you want to make the biggest difference you will have to return to westminster. this is where everybody _ return to westminster. this is where everybody in _ return to westminster. this is where everybody in the - return to westminster. this is where everybody in the uk i return to westminster. this is| where everybody in the uk and outside needs to focus because implicit in the question is that westminster is the only show in town. that is implicit and that is the problem. that is the problem with the united kingdom because we have an over

centralisation of political power in one place and that over centralisation creates the unhealthy culture, the abuse of that power and the anonymous briefing. that is the problem and i decided to leave that system with the mayor of liverpool city, we did it together, to create something new and to rebalance politics in this country, to give the regions of this country and particularly the north that has been long neglected, allowed a political voice then it has before and that is something new in british politics right now. the places that westminster has always like to try and pat on the head around the ring back. they don't like it that we are answering back and it will not change. 0ur voices only going to get louder and that is actually the most interesting thing happening in british politics right now. that is where we have two and but andy burnham i think you very much forjoining me on hardtalk.

hello there. it was a busy old start to our working week — hot and humid for all of us. in fact, it was the warmest day of the year so far, with some late afternoon sunshine across northern ireland, a hot day across southern scotland and, as you can see, in north wales as well, temperatures in the high 20s. northwest england saw a high of 31 degrees as well. that heat and humidity helped to trigger off some sharp, thundery downpours, and you can see in cheshire, the threatening—looking skies, those thunderstorms that threatened to spoil the parade in manchester. now, we had over a couple of inches of rain in highland scotland from those storms. they were quite widespread with over 7,500 lightning strikes at one point through the middle part of the afternoon. the showers have eased away, but it's still quite a mild start to the day.

tuesday morning seeing temperatures into the mid—teens first thing. there'll be plenty of early—morning sunshine to look out for as well. but there will be a change to come — a little bit more cloud just clinging on to the isles of scilly and maybe cornwall, and a few isolated showers, just a few across england and wales — these shouldn't be thundery either. we should see some sharp, thundery downpours perhaps into the west of northern ireland and the far northwest of scotland. but in comparison to monday's weather, it won't be quite as widespread that rain, and it'll still be quite warm. yes, the northern isles, a little cool and cloudy, but 21—27 degrees in scotland, 25 in northern ireland and generally the high 20s across england and wales. now, through the rest of the week, it's going to start to gradually feel less humid. we keep a lot of dry and sunny weather, though. the reason why we're losing that humidity is the position of the high. the wind direction swings round from a southeasterly to a light easterly direction, so it's not going to produce some cloud coming in off the north sea

like we had around a week ago. it's still going to keep a lot of fine, dry weather, but there is a risk of a little bit more cloud into eastern scotland, and maybe some cloud lingering across southwest england as well. but look at the temperatures — still slightly above the average for the time of year. generally around 21—27 degrees the high — that's the 80s — and this dry, settled, sunny theme continues right throughout the week and largely into the weekend. just a slim chance of some rain from monday onwards.

live from london, live from london, this is bbc news. this is bbc news. you a special report. all eyes on miami as donald trump is due to appear in court facing federal criminal charges. he's accused of mishandling national security files. the first public hearings in the landmark inquiry into the uk government's handling of the covid pandemic begins. tributes from around the world for italy's silvio berlusconi who died at the age of 86. and palestinian youths are more likely to reject the idea of a two—state solution to the israeli—palestinian conflict. we'll bring