hello, welcome to the programme. former us president donald trump is in court in miami right now. let's cross straightaway to the live pictures we have now. his supporters outside the courthouse, there you can see as well, as some of his opponents have turned up to. large numbers of his supporters have arrived. the other live pictures we have are outside the courthouse on the right—hand side there. in the last few minutes or so, we have had it confirmed, proceedings are under way. he is in the courtroom. donald trump is in the courtroom for his arraignment. arraignment isjust arraignment. arraignment is just effectively arraignment. arraignment isjust effectively reading out of the charges, 37 of them. 37 criminal charges, 37 of them. 37 criminal charges being brought out against donald trump. he is expected to plead not guilty. just in the last hour or so we saw him arriving into

court. these are the most recent pictures. his motorcade travelled a short distance from one of his residences. that is his vehicle they are going into the car park underneath the courtroom there. we have heard from a spokesperson of donald trump in the last half hour. let's take a listen. the executive branch has the power to classify documents. the decision to classify documents. the decision to pursue charges against president trump while turning a blind eye to others is emblematic of the corruption that we have here. we are at a turning point in our nations history. the targeting, prosecution, of a leading political opponent, is the type of thing you see in dictatorships like cuba and venezuela. it is commonplace for

viable candidates to be prosecuted, persecuted, and put into jail. what is being done to the president trump should terrify all citizens of this country. these are not the ideals that our democracy is founded upon. this is not our america. thank you. so what is happening right now inside the courthouse because mark has he been arrested because man has been finger printed because mark has a mug shot been taken? what's happening's a mug shot been taken? what's happening"— a mug shot been taken? what's ha enina' , , , a mug shot been taken? what's ha--enin-' , , , ., happening's president trump is in a very unique — happening's president trump is in a very unique position _ happening's president trump is in a very unique position where - happening's president trump is in a very unique position where he - very unique position where he doesn't need to be given a mug shot, obviously. he's not a flight risk. he is the leading candidate of the gop at the moment. he is going through a process that has been coordinated with secret service, and it will all be handled seamlessly. what is his feelings, how was he feeling's he what is his feelings, how was he feelinu' , .,

what is his feelings, how was he feeling's_ he's - feeling's he is defiant. he's defiant were _ feeling's he is defiant. he's defiant were the _ feeling's he is defiant. he's defiant were the last - feeling's he is defiant. he's defiant were the last wordsi feeling's he is defiant. he's - defiant were the last words there. that is the assessment of trumps of this historic day, whatever political side you're on. nomia iqbal is standing by. just bring her something tell us what's happening right now. something tell us what's happening riaht now. ., , , , right now. donald trump is inside the courtroom. _ right now. donald trump is inside the courtroom. he _ right now. donald trump is inside the courtroom. he has _ right now. donald trump is inside the courtroom. he has been - the courtroom. he has been arraigned. he is facing one of the indictment charges. he was an aide to donald trump back to the white house and continued working for him. once he left, he was accused of moving those classified boxes, so he is having those charges right out of him. i think what it is very interesting is thatjock smith, the prosecutor, who brought this case against him. donald trump has not mince his words when he talks about how he feels about him. all the way here he was insulting mr smith, calling him the reins, a lunatic, now he is and tied the courtroom,

having those charges went out he's artie been processed, and turns of think of it being taken, that sort of thing. no mug shot. and once he enters a plea of not guilty we expect he will leave the courthouse. there is some suggestion that he might do a walk about because there are a lot of his supporters here, but we can't be sure. another thing to add, i think it's fair to say that in the last six or seven years, there is a sort of numbness about donald trump. he has pretty much broken all the rules. if any politician had done it, their career would have been over. at this indictment is really serious. yes, he was indicted a few months ago in new york where he was accused of breaking laws due to campaign financing. but this is the united states of america versus donaldj trump. this is the us accusing its former commander—in—chief,

potentially future president, of breaching national security, jeopardising national security. so this is huge. jeopardising national security. so this is huge-— jeopardising national security. so this is hue. ., . ., ~ this is huge. nomia iqbal, thank you so much for— this is huge. nomia iqbal, thank you so much for that. _ this is huge. nomia iqbal, thank you so much for that. and _ this is huge. nomia iqbal, thank you so much for that. and now _ this is huge. nomia iqbal, thank you so much for that. and now she - this is huge. nomia iqbal, thank you so much for that. and now she was i so much for that. and now she was talking there, we've got a quick line through from the reuters news agency saying simply this. trump pleads not guilty at court hearing in classified documents case. this, of course, is all about those 37 charges. trump pleads not guilty at court in the last few minutes. let's just take a couple of minutes to tape a quick reminder of what this is all about. were going to take a look at what the prosecutors have alleged in their indictment. the 37—count indictment accuses him of keeping the files at his florida estate, including in a ballroom and a shower. among the more than 300 classified files he took to mar—a—lago,

some of the most damning documents included information about america's nuclear programmes. files with classified information about defence and weapons capabilities of both the united states and foreign countries. other documents highlighted the defence weaknesses and vulnerabilities of the us and its allies to military attacks. and, plans for any response to that type of foreign aggression. the a9—page indictment also lays out how the former president showed documents to people without clearance, despite knowing they were still classified. the prosecutors then claim that he tried to obstruct the fbi's investigation, suggesting to his lawyers and aides that they should either hide or destroy files rather than hand them over. let's ta ke let's take you back to the live pictures we have in miami. just to let you know, we are keeping across all the events there. we have some interesting panelist to speak to. we

are going to speak to lauren right. lauren wright is a lecturer in politics at princeton university and former white house ethics lawyer richard painter. thank you both are coming on the programme. so, just so you guys know, we are going to keep the live pictures rolling beside you, because this is an extraordinary moment, whatever way you look at it. more and this is a moment of us history. absolutely. it's the first time we've ever seen anything like this. and that's the case with many things trump does. it's not even his first indictment. and so, you know, i study the politics of this of presidential history, and one thing that continues to fascinate me about trump is the steadiness of the base and their support for him. however, i don't think it's responsible to say this will somehow help him. i don't think we have any evidence of

that. he might keep— that. he might keep lauren, you've 'ust froze that. he might keep lauren, you've just froze in — that. he might keep lauren, you've just froze in there. _ that. he might keep lauren, you've just froze in there. i _ that. he might keep lauren, you've just froze in there. i don't - that. he might keep lauren, you've just froze in there. i don't know- just froze in there. i don't know whether you can hear us. you were going to challenge, interesting, were going to continue that point, because he established seat of wisdom is that these kind of appearances will be used by donald trump to fire up his base, increases campaign donations, increase the chance of him getting the republican nomination. of course, he has front corner. lauren seemed to be challenging that as a premise. richard paynter, what do you make of that? i don't want to use the old phrase, but you may well still be muted. yes, there you go. we can hear you now. muted. yes, there you go. we can hear you nova— hear you now. this is about the handling of _ hear you now. this is about the handling of classified _ hear you now. this is about the l handling of classified information and not _ handling of classified information and not positing politics. so i will reiterate — and not positing politics. so i will reiterate what i told the white

house — reiterate what i told the white house in — reiterate what i told the white house in 2005 when i gave the ethic lectures _ house in 2005 when i gave the ethic lectures about handling classified information. one, you do not take it home _ information. one, you do not take it home with _ information. one, you do not take it home with you. you start only in a secure facility. second, you do not show it _ secure facility. second, you do not show it to — secure facility. second, you do not show it to anyone who does not have a security— show it to anyone who does not have a security clearance. anyone in the media, _ a security clearance. anyone in the media, politicalaction a security clearance. anyone in the media, political action committee, nohody— media, political action committee, nobody who doesn't have a security clearance _ nobody who doesn't have a security clearance can see those documents. that strictly — clearance can see those documents. that strictly prohibited. people need _ that strictly prohibited. people need to— that strictly prohibited. people need to have the security clearance to see _ need to have the security clearance to see the — need to have the security clearance to see the documents. third, when there _ to see the documents. third, when there is— to see the documents. third, when there is a _ to see the documents. third, when there is a compromise of classified information there will be an investigation, and it is critically important — investigation, and it is critically important to cooperate with the investigation, not to obstruct the investigation. so we can ascertain where _ investigation. so we can ascertain where the — investigation. so we can ascertain where the documents are, who have seen them, — where the documents are, who have seen them, and how we can get them back _ seen them, and how we can get them back so. _ seen them, and how we can get them back so. this— seen them, and how we can get them back. so, this indictment alleges that donald trump did all three. he knowingiy— that donald trump did all three. he knowingly took classified documents out of _ knowingly took classified documents out of the _ knowingly took classified documents out of the white house. he knowingly showed _ out of the white house. he knowingly showed them to individuals who did not have _

showed them to individuals who did not have a — showed them to individuals who did not have a security clearance. and then, _ not have a security clearance. and then, when — not have a security clearance. and then, when there was an investigation, he obstructed the investigation.— investigation, he obstructed the investiuation. ., ., investigation. let's break that down because that's _ investigation. let's break that down because that's a _ investigation. let's break that down because that's a really _ investigation. let's break that down because that's a really crucial - because that's a really crucial distinction between what's going on here. we will leave .2 and three for a moment. i'm going to start with .i, a moment. i'm going to start with .i, which is taking them and removing them in the first place, because his supporters say hey, it's notjust donald trump was done that. other people have done that. where have been their federal charges? this is double standards. and this is what i talk about with some establishments. find is what i talk about with some establishments.— is what i talk about with some establishments. �* �* , ., , ,., , establishments. and it's absolutely unacceptable _ establishments. and it's absolutely unacceptable to _ establishments. and it's absolutely unacceptable to remove _ establishments. and it's absolutely unacceptable to remove classified i unacceptable to remove classified documents under any circumstances, whether— documents under any circumstances, whether it _ documents under any circumstances, whether it is — documents under any circumstances, whether it is negligent or whether it is intentional. that is why i have — it is intentional. that is why i have called for a complete investigation of what happened with joe biden— investigation of what happened with joe biden when he was vice president, and why the documents were sitting at the university of pennsylvania office for six years. i also want — pennsylvania office for six years. i also want to learn more about the university— also want to learn more about the university of pennsylvania raising money— university of pennsylvania raising money from chinese donors, and who

had access— money from chinese donors, and who had access to — money from chinese donors, and who had access to those. there are a lot of questions — had access to those. there are a lot of questions yet to be answered. but. _ of questions yet to be answered. but. at _ of questions yet to be answered. but, at this point, there is not evidence — but, at this point, there is not evidence thatjoe biden evidence that joe biden intentionally evidence thatjoe biden intentionally removed the documents. if i intentionally removed the documents. if i were _ intentionally removed the documents. if i were to— intentionally removed the documents. if i were to see such evidence i would — if i were to see such evidence i would call— if i were to see such evidence i would call for the prosecution of the president of the united states if he the president of the united states it he had — the president of the united states if he had intentionally remove classified documents. but, that is not what — classified documents. but, that is not what i — classified documents. but, that is not what i see in that case right now _ not what i see in that case right now in— not what i see in that case right now. ., . ., , �* , not what i see in that case right now. ., .., , �* , ., not what i see in that case right now. ., , �*, ., ., not what i see in that case right now. ., �*, ., ., ., now. in that case, let's move on to points two — now. in that case, let's move on to points two and _ now. in that case, let's move on to points two and three _ now. in that case, let's move on to points two and three that - now. in that case, let's move on to points two and three that you - now. in that case, let's move on to points two and three that you have | points two and three that you have raised. is it, and your assessment, that given the information delivered evidence we've seen so far, that there is a proper case for donald trump to answer's the there is a proper case for donald trump to answer'- there is a proper case for donald trump to answer's the second issue was whether _ trump to answer's the second issue was whether he _ trump to answer's the second issue was whether he did _ trump to answer's the second issue was whether he did show _ trump to answer's the second issue was whether he did show these - was whether he did show these documents to the media and some of his clinical _ documents to the media and some of his clinical action committees alleged — his clinical action committees alleged in the indictment. if so, that is— alleged in the indictment. if so, that is a — alleged in the indictment. if so, that is a separate felony each time he does _ that is a separate felony each time he does that. you pick up classified documents — he does that. you pick up classified documents and show them without

security— documents and show them without security clearance, that, of course, the government will have to prove beyond _ the government will have to prove beyond a — the government will have to prove beyond a reasonable doubt. so that's .2. beyond a reasonable doubt. so that's 1 now. _ beyond a reasonable doubt. so that's 1 now. the — beyond a reasonable doubt. so that's .2. now, the third thing is absolutely critical. it's full cooperation with any investigation. obstruction ofjustice is very serious _ obstruction ofjustice is very serious. we saw donald trump obstruct — serious. we saw donald trump obstruct arsenic in the russian investigation, he wasn't prosecuted for that— investigation, he wasn't prosecuted for that because he was the sitting president— for that because he was the sitting president at the time, but the justice — president at the time, but the justice department didn't want to prosecute him. but there was obstruction ofjustice and that unfortunately is the pattern that he continued _ unfortunately is the pattern that he continued in this episode, where when _ continued in this episode, where when the — continued in this episode, where when the fbi, when the national archives. — when the fbi, when the national archives, national security officials _ archives, national security officials wanted to get the documents, find out who saw them, he frustrated. _ documents, find out who saw them, he frustrated, he obstructed the investigation, according to the indictment. the government will have to prove _ indictment. the government will have to prove this without delete beyond a reasonable doubt but it is essential to cooperate, which once again— essential to cooperate, which once again is why i've called on the biden— again is why i've called on the biden white house to cooperate fully with the _ biden white house to cooperate fully with the investigation of those documents, and to put pressure on

the university of pennsylvania to cooperate — the university of pennsylvania to cooperate fully with respect to the documents that were under their custody— documents that were under their custody and control for six years. it is custody and control for six years. it is very— custody and control for six years. it is very important for everyone to cooperate — it is very important for everyone to cooperate in these investigations. richard. _ cooperate in these investigations. richard, that is interesting, because we've even heard from donald trump supporters throughout the day today, saying frankly, that they do wish that that full cooperation had been forthcoming. basically, that the documents have been handed back straightaway. now as you pointed out, nothing is proven yet. it has to be proven beyond a reasonable doubt. but if we work on the basis hypothetically that is what happens, many of his own supporters who don't believe this case should be brought in the first place believe this case is an over structure, and overreached, but do accept that they wish that all the documents have been returned straightaway. weill. been returned straightaway. well, es, been returned straightaway. well, yes. because _ been returned straightaway. well, yes, because that's _ been returned straightaway. well, yes, because that's the _ been returned straightaway. well, yes, because that's the legal- yes, because that's the legal obligation. return the documents, cooperate — obligation. return the documents, cooperate with the investigation so we can— cooperate with the investigation so we can find out who had access to

the documents, who might've had access— the documents, who might've had access to — the documents, who might've had access to the documents, which national— access to the documents, which national secrets might have been compromised, and to whom. in there's investigation _ compromised, and to whom. in there's investigation will be ongoing in respect — investigation will be ongoing in respect to the bottom documents as well. respect to the bottom documents as welt the _ respect to the bottom documents as well. the difference here is that the biden— well. the difference here is that the biden white house is cooperating with that _ the biden white house is cooperating with that investigation and joe biden— with that investigation and joe biden himself is cooperating. unfortunately, donald trump decided very early— unfortunately, donald trump decided very early on in this process to resist — very early on in this process to resist the _ very early on in this process to resist the investigation, to obstructed, there are accusations that he _ obstructed, there are accusations that he lied to the government, that he told _ that he lied to the government, that he told his— that he lied to the government, that he told his lawyers lies, that boxes were moved around, and it became delete _ were moved around, and it became delete becomes a game of cat and mouse _ delete becomes a game of cat and mouse. we are playing around with classified _ mouse. we are playing around with classified information here. this is a very— classified information here. this is a very dangerous situation when someone — a very dangerous situation when someone is refusing to cooperate with the — someone is refusing to cooperate with the federal investigation of what _ with the federal investigation of what is — with the federal investigation of what is going on.— with the federal investigation of what is going on. fascinating. thank ou for what is going on. fascinating. thank you for that- — what is going on. fascinating. thank you for that. lauren, _ what is going on. fascinating. thank you for that. lauren, you _ what is going on. fascinating. thank you for that. lauren, you are - what is going on. fascinating. thank you for that. lauren, you are back . you for that. lauren, you are back with us. we hope the connection is a little better. thanks for that. both of you just stay there a couple of seconds because ijust want of you just stay there a couple of seconds because i just want to reiterate the breaking line. we are

starting to get some of the detail know about what's been happening inside that courtroom. donald trump allowed to leave court without conditions. that's from reuters, cnn, trump allowed to leave without condition. trump, as are reported in the last few minutes, has pled not guilty to mishandling government secrets. that's got into afp, a number of news agencies are now reporting that in the last few minutes, trump pleads not guilty to mishandling government secrets. and as for those details about what is happening inside, it seems that the prosecutors tell the judge they do not consider donald trump to be a flight risk, and this was pretty much anticipated. here's the front runner for the much anticipated. here's the front runnerfor the party much anticipated. here's the front runner for the party to much anticipated. here's the front runnerfor the party to be much anticipated. here's the front runner for the party to be there next presidential candidate. very unlikely to be a flight risk in any

real circumstances, so we had that reiterated they are to the judge. lauren, let's go back to you. i want to pick up. i know it feels like a wild to go now but the point that you were making was that donald trump, that donald trump uses these types of appearances to his advantage, to fund raise, to galvanise support, to play the victim, to secure even more support for his republican party presidential nomination. you don't think that is true, is that right? while he tries. and financially he succeeds from a fundraising perspective. but i don't know how to grow the numbers of supporters when you do need some moderates and you do need some people that are currently, polling indicates preferring chris christie, or any of

these other republican candidates, and there might be 20 of them by the time we are done will stop i don't know how it builds your support. it especially doesn't help you on a national election and that is the point i was making before we broke up point i was making before we broke up earlier. i point i was making before we broke u- earlier. . . point i was making before we broke u- earlier. , , , ., point i was making before we broke u- earlier. , , i. , , up earlier. i see. is it your sense that whatever _ up earlier. i see. is it your sense that whatever these _ up earlier. i see. is it your sense that whatever these pictures - up earlier. i see. is it your sense | that whatever these pictures that are being coursed across the us and around the world, that in the end, it won't actually make much difference, he will become the nominee? i difference, he will become the nominee?— difference, he will become the nominee? �* ., nominee? i can't tell right now. it would take _ nominee? i can't tell right now. it would take all— nominee? i can't tell right now. it would take all of— nominee? i can't tell right now. it would take all of his _ nominee? i can't tell right now. it would take all of his opponents i would take all of his opponents turning on him, which so far they really haven't. we have seen some comments from nikki hale about irresponsibility, a little bit from rhonda santos about military records, but that is not strong enough to take down the current head of the party. that opposition is going to have to get much stronger, and those voices louder. and so he

already has enough support with all of these indictments to carry him through the victory, even though it is extraordinarily serious.— is extraordinarily serious. indeed. lauren, standby _ is extraordinarily serious. indeed. lauren, standby for _ is extraordinarily serious. indeed. lauren, standby for us. _ is extraordinarily serious. indeed. lauren, standby for us. just - is extraordinarily serious. indeed. lauren, standby for us. just want | is extraordinarily serious. indeed. l lauren, standby for us. just want to take our viewers through the various different live pictures we have. so this is a street level, ground—level outside the court in miami. these are life pictures there. you can see the activity pretty much in the background, tense of course, a big media presence there. these are the aerial pictures that we have live again of the courthouse, donald trump inside, proceedings under way, arraignment under way formal reading of alleged criminal charges. across miami and a slightly wider area, there have been his supporters, lots of his supporters out on the streets, some of his opponents too. yesterday, we did have a briefing from the mayor of the area, from the

police chief, talking about their preparations. they were prepared for 500, up to 50,000 people to be there. they were confident they had there. they were confident they had the policing resources in place to deal with any situation that arose. so far, it has been noisy at times. it seems to be quiet right now. it has been noisy at times, but so far, no trouble reported. we haven't actually seen donald trump himself although there are some of those supporters there. we haven't seen donald trump himself. we did see the arrival of his motorcade into court itself, a shortjourney, and he did actually message from his, this is the motorcade. these are life, these are pictures from a little earlier. these are pictures of him making a relatively short journey there into court in miami. interestingly, when he was in that vehicle, when he was heading to court, he did have a message. he wrote on his social media platform, quote, one of the

saddest days in the history of our country. we are a nation in decline, explanation mark,!,!. let's country. we are a nation in decline, explanation mark, ! ,!. let's cross back to miami. nomia iqbal, our correspondent is there. we are starting to get some small details about what's happening inside the courtroom. . about what's happening inside the courtroom. , ., , courtroom. yes, donald trump has leaded courtroom. yes, donald trump has pleaded not _ courtroom. yes, donald trump has pleaded not guilty _ courtroom. yes, donald trump has pleaded not guilty at _ courtroom. yes, donald trump has pleaded not guilty at the _ courtroom. yes, donald trump has pleaded not guilty at the court - pleaded not guilty at the court hearing into the classified documents. he is facing 37 counts. he is also there with his aide, who is charged in one indictment. he was his aide when he was at the white house and he carried on working with donald trump when he left the white housein donald trump when he left the white house in january 2021. donald trump when he left the white house injanuary 2021. so, just donald trump when he left the white house in january 2021. so, just to give you a little bit of detail, for the people who might be wondering why we can't see any pictures or any footage inside, and the way that we were able to back in new york when

he was indicted there, that's because this is a federal court and there are very stringent rules about that. journalist inside cannot even take their mobile phones and. but before we get to that, trump sat there with his arms crossed. in front of the magistrate judge, he wore a suit and tie, that's what we're used to seeing him wear. the person that is representing donald trump is a man named chris. his lawyer also seated at the defence table. donald trump has been told he is allowed to leave court without any conditions. so technically he is considered under arrest and he is considered under arrest and he is considered to be in custody but he is not deemed a flight risk. he is expected to come out. there are some suggestions that he is going to do a walk about and speak to his supporters. just to let you know miami police have prepared for 50,000 supporters to turn out and i can tell you there are maybe a couple hundred here. so he might turn up but then here's a expected to leave florida and had to new

jersey where he is going to be making some comments. you can imagine what that could be. about quarter past eight he will go automatically into campaign fundraising following this indictment.— fundraising following this indictment. ., ,, ., ., fundraising following this indictment. ., ., ., indictment. thank you for that. so, that is the latest _ indictment. thank you for that. so, that is the latest from _ indictment. thank you for that. so, that is the latest from outside - that is the latest from outside court. we are going to just quickly return to our guest, richard paynter, who is still standing by, return to our guest, richard paynter, who is still alongside lauren wright as well. thank you both for being here. we've just got a couple of minutes left in this section. richard, ijust want to come to you. if you could outline the scale, i suppose, the importance, the prominence, the seriousness of these 30 plus charges. seriousness of these 30 plus char: es. ~ , seriousness of these 30 plus charaes. ~ , ., , charges. well, they are very serious- _ charges. well, they are very serious. because _ charges. well, they are very serious. because this - charges. well, they are very i serious. because this involves charges. well, they are very - serious. because this involves some of our— serious. because this involves some of our nations most sensitive secrets _ of our nations most sensitive secrets. including our nuclear secrets. — secrets. including our nuclear secrets, and our military plans for dealing _ secrets, and our military plans for dealing with an attack from a

foreign — dealing with an attack from a foreign power. i don't know exactly what is _ foreign power. i don't know exactly what is in _ foreign power. i don't know exactly what is in the documents, of course, there _ what is in the documents, of course, there classified. i don't have the there classified. idon't have the security— there classified. i don't have the security clearance. neither should the journalists who apparently saw the journalists who apparently saw the documents and will show them by donald _ the documents and will show them by donald trump. this is a very dangerous situation for the united states— dangerous situation for the united states where there is such a compromise of nuclear secrets and other— compromise of nuclear secrets and other classified information. we are going _ other classified information. we are going to _ other classified information. we are going to see, in this trial, to the extent— going to see, in this trial, to the extent to — going to see, in this trial, to the extent to which donald trump knowingly removed the documents, held on— knowingly removed the documents, held on to _ knowingly removed the documents, held on to the documents, show them to other— held on to the documents, show them to other people, and then obstructed the investigation. if these charges laid forth— the investigation. if these charges laid forth in the indictment are proven— laid forth in the indictment are proven beyond a reasonable doubt, and that _ proven beyond a reasonable doubt, and that is— proven beyond a reasonable doubt, and that is the job of the prosecution, to prove beyond a reasonable doubt, then donald trump is guilty— reasonable doubt, then donald trump is guilty of— reasonable doubt, then donald trump is guilty of very serious felonies. let's _ is guilty of very serious felonies. let'siust— is guilty of very serious felonies. let'sjust absolutely is guilty of very serious felonies. let's just absolutely stressed clearly, nothing has been near trial

yet. were not near anything like that. but if he is found guilty. i know we are leaping way ahead. but if he is, what does that mean about his ability to be president? . iii if he is, what does that mean about his ability to be president?- his ability to be president? , if he were convicted, _ his ability to be president? , if he were convicted, of— his ability to be president? , if he were convicted, of several- his ability to be president? , if he were convicted, of several of - his ability to be president? , if he. were convicted, of several of these counts _ were convicted, of several of these counts or— were convicted, of several of these counts or of— were convicted, of several of these counts or of all of these counts, these _ counts or of all of these counts, these are — counts or of all of these counts, these are very serious felonies. so, these are very serious felonies. so, the trial— these are very serious felonies. so, the trial need to take place. we need _ the trial need to take place. we need to— the trial need to take place. we need to find out how much of this was negligence, how much of this was intentional. _ was negligence, how much of this was intentional, and his part, and who else was— intentional, and his part, and who else was responsible. so we can prejudge — else was responsible. so we can prejudge the situation until the trial has— prejudge the situation until the trial has taken place. but the allegations in the indictment are extremely serious. some of these statutes _ extremely serious. some of these statutes provide that he could not serve _ statutes provide that he could not serve in _ statutes provide that he could not serve in public office if he is convicted _ serve in public office if he is convicted. the questions are about whether— convicted. the questions are about whether they are delete that is constitutional or not but we will

see _ constitutional or not but we will see it's — constitutional or not but we will see. it's too early to figure that out _ see. it's too early to figure that out. . ., ., ~ see. it's too early to figure that out. . ., ., ,, i. see. it's too early to figure that out. . ., ., ,, ., ., . out. richard, thank you for that. we will come back _ out. richard, thank you for that. we will come back to _ out. richard, thank you for that. we will come back to you _ out. richard, thank you for that. we will come back to you shortly, - out. richard, thank you for that. we will come back to you shortly, it - will come back to you shortly, it will come back to you shortly, it will be coming back to our other guest, lauren writes, injust a little while to. for the moment though, donald trump has pled not guilty to those criminal charges. and we say goodbye to our viewers on pbs. this is bbc news. wejust pause there to say goodbye to some of our viewers. plenty more still here. lauren, let's come back to you. what do you make of this whole idea of a president, potentially guilty of these kind of crimes, and then becoming president again's will look, becoming president again's it look, constitutionally, that's really all we have, there are three qualifications to be president. 35 years of age, natural born citizen, 14 years of age, natural born citizen, 1a years of residence in the us. and that's pretty much it. we have seen

people campaign from person. eugene debs did not in 1920. there is president for a president campaigning from jail. and it will be a huge constitutional crisis and question about trumps candidacy and ability to serve. but really, because of the way our constitution outlines this, so sparsely, it is a question for voters to decide. and i'm not convinced he can win a national election, but plenty of republicans will send him there. and just to stay very quickly about the republican party, the whole politcised just to him system argument that republican elites are making is so insulting to previous republican and democratic presidents. it's notjust lucky that ronald reagan or george w. bush was never indicted under the espionage act. these are trump he and behaviours that are very specific to

him. and yes, there is no conviction yet, and we don't even know if there will be one, but to act as if this isjust something will be one, but to act as if this is just something that can fall in the lap of any presidential candidate i think is absurd. 0k. one, candidate i think is absurd. 0k. one. that _ candidate i think is absurd. ok. one, that underlies the timing here and not being so crucial, because we don't have any set time. we are unlikely today to learn a trial date or anything like that. but many are saying that the longer this drags on, the better this is for donald trump, because if he were to win the next election, then this trial couldn't take place while he was an office. is that right or is that wrong? office. is that right or is that wron: ? ., ., .,, ., , wrong? there are legal opinions. the office of legal— wrong? there are legal opinions. the office of legal counsel _ wrong? there are legal opinions. the office of legal counsel in _ wrong? there are legal opinions. the office of legal counsel in the - office of legal counsel in the justice department has indicated that you can indict a sitting president. however, that is something that will likely end up in

the supreme court. and it is an open question. it's not part of the laws that we have on the books where we can point to a clear statute and say, here is what will happen. especially because trump, if elected, would probably try to pardon himself, and there are questions about that. and so, it's a constitutional crisis level type issue. i think the argument that you just cited, where the longer the better, is in line with most public opinion and political communication research we know about, which basically says voters have very short—term memories. and so it will be up to the media and the other candidates in this case to keep this story fresh and to remind voters the seriousness of what trump is alleged to have done. seriousness of what trump is alleged to have done-— to have done. let's put that hypothetical— to have done. let's put that hypothetical to _ to have done. let's put that hypothetical to richard. - to have done. let's put that hypothetical to richard. i i to have done. let's put that - hypotheticalto richard. i should hypothetical to richard. i should stress again, this is all hypothetical. we are getting way ahead of ourselves. but if we have a trial date, richard, that is beyond

when there's hypothetical trump presidential win takes place, so he sitting back in the white house, a trial is due to take place, but it won't because he is president, what are your thoughts on that? i think you may have muted yourself again. i think you may have muted yourself aaain. ., ., , , ., again. that would be up to the 'udae, again. that would be up to the judge. to _ again. that would be up to the judge, to decide _ again. that would be up to the judge, to decide whether - again. that would be up to the judge, to decide whether to i again. that would be up to the - judge, to decide whether to proceed with the _ judge, to decide whether to proceed with the trial of a sitting president, and there is nothing in the constitution that prohibits an indictment or the trial of a sitting president — indictment or the trial of a sitting president. the office of legal counsel— president. the office of legal counsel at the justice department has said _ counsel at the justice department has said that it is not a good idea, but of— has said that it is not a good idea, but of course the justice department works for— but of course the justice department works for the president. who is going _ works for the president. who is going to — works for the president. who is going to write a legal opinion that it is good — going to write a legal opinion that it is good to indict your boss? if this is— it is good to indict your boss? if this is scheduled, and he were to be elected _ this is scheduled, and he were to be elected president, i could see a judge _ elected president, i could see a judge wanting to proceed with a trials _ judge wanting to proceed with a trials along as it did not interfere

with his — trials along as it did not interfere with his functions as president of the united states. |