to see here there is nothing to see here and this is just business as usual because this is what former commanders in chief do. interesting. i saw you nodding there as we were speaking. what are you thoughts, chuck? bizarre place of american politics _ bizarre place of american politics today which, you know, we talked — politics today which, you know, we talked a little bit about, you know, does this give a lane to anybody— you know, does this give a lane to anybody else in republican primary _ to anybody else in republican primary. i tend to agree with the other_ primary. i tend to agree with the other panellists that it doesn't, but i'm also reminded of that— doesn't, but i'm also reminded of that old _ doesn't, but i'm also reminded of that old american adage that the man— of that old american adage that the man - — of that old american adage that the man — the man who's leading the man — the man who's leading the mob — the man — the man who's leading the mob is — the man — the man who's leading the mob is not the hero, it's the — the mob is not the hero, it's the man— the mob is not the hero, it's the man who stands up to the mob — the man who stands up to the moh 50— the man who stands up to the mob. so we're going to see, i think. — mob. so we're going to see, i think. chris— mob. so we're going to see, i think, chris christie. i think “em think, chris christie. i think i saw— think, chris christie. i think i saw it— think, chris christie. i think i saw it last night with bailey - with — i saw it last night with bailey — with the former un secretary, ithink— — with the former un secretary, i think we'll begin to see an evolution— i think we'll begin to see an evolution because i think there's— evolution because i think there's an awareness within the republican electorate that we

'ust republican electorate that we just can't do 2020 yet. we just can't _ just can't do 2020 yet. we just can't repeat the same mistake over— can't repeat the same mistake over and — can't repeat the same mistake over and over can't repeat the same mistake overand overagain can't repeat the same mistake over and over again which we have — over and over again which we have done _ over and over again which we have done from 20 and 22. we're going _ have done from 20 and 22. we're going to — have done from 20 and 22. we're going to see an opportunity here — going to see an opportunity here and _ going to see an opportunity here and find out if any of those _ here and find out if any of those republican candidates have — those republican candidates have the guts to take it up. christie _ have the guts to take it up. christie does and he'll be the bull christie does and he'll be the butt in — christie does and he'll be the bull in the china shop which will eliminate any of his opportunities to win, but he'll create — opportunities to win, but he'll create this opportunity for a narrative _ create this opportunity for a narrative there about where we're — narrative there about where we're going, that desantis candidate could resume an opportunity there that, aisa hutchinson, the governor of arkansas _ hutchinson, the governor of arkansas with presume an opportunity. there will be an opportunity. there will be an opportunity here to talk about that — opportunity here to talk about that. particularly in iowa when iowa, — that. particularly in iowa when iowa, you _ that. particularly in iowa when iowa, you know, iowa is a caucus, _ iowa, you know, iowa is a caucus, it's— iowa, you know, iowa is a caucus, it's a retail state, donald _ caucus, it's a retail state, donald trump lost that in 2016 when _ donald trump lost that in 2016 when he — donald trump lost that in 2016 when he was a non—incumbent candidate _ when he was a non—incumbent candidate. he's vulnerable there. _ candidate. he's vulnerable there, we know that. and i

think— there, we know that. and i think that there will be an opportunity in new hampshire with the — opportunity in new hampshire with the governor of new hampshire who has not had a great — hampshire who has not had a great track record of supporting successful governors, but we'll see the opportunity to exercise this as the trial— opportunity to exercise this as the trial moves forward. the times— the trial moves forward. the times of— the trial moves forward. the times of which we do not know, that will— times of which we do not know, that will be in the judges' hand _ that will be in the judges' hand. going to be a lot of evidentiary issues here with what — evidentiary issues here with what gets permitted to be in court. — what gets permitted to be in court, what documents are in court. — court, what documents are in court, what documents are in court, what testimonies will be permitted in court. all of these _ permitted in court. all of these charges that are related to the — these charges that are related to the lawyers' testimony, the president's own lawyers testimony against the president, that's going to be challenged. i think it's going to he — challenged. i think it's going to be fascinate, it's going to be time _ to be fascinate, it's going to be time consuming. i can't see anything — be time consuming. i can't see anything being resolved here very— anything being resolved here very quickly. it's going to be drawn— very quickly. it's going to be drawn out. and we know what the narrative — drawn out. and we know what the narrative from trump is going

to he — narrative from trump is going to he - — narrative from trump is going to he - the _ narrative from trump is going to be — the unidentified narrative right now is what is other— narrative right now is what is other - — narrative right now is what is other — what are other people going — other — what are other people going to — other — what are other people going to be saying. what are they— going to be saying. what are they going to be talking about. it's they going to be talking about. it's an— they going to be talking about. it's an absolute clairvoyant thing — it's an absolute clairvoyant thing to _ it's an absolute clairvoyant thing to say he can't win. he's not able — thing to say he can't win. he's not able to— thing to say he can't win. he's not able to win a general election— not able to win a general election campaign and he's babbling. election campaign and he's babbling-— election campaign and he's babblina. ., ., ., babbling. marianne, iwant to ask ou babbling. marianne, iwant to ask you about _ babbling. marianne, iwant to ask you about something - babbling. marianne, iwant to ask you about something that babbling. marianne, i want to . ask you about something that we heard paul ryan say about the campaign. let's play that clip and then talk about it. i want to win. and if we nominate _ i want to win. and if we nominate trump- i want to win. and if we nominate trump we'rel i want to win. and if we - nominate trump we're going to lose _ nominate trump we're going to lose he — nominate trump we're going to lose. he hasn't— nominate trump we're going to lose. he hasn't won _ nominate trump we're going to lose. he hasn't won anything . lose. he hasn't won anything since — lose. he hasn't won anything since 2016 _ lose. he hasn't won anything since 2016. we _ lose. he hasn't won anything since 2016. we lost - lose. he hasn't won anything since 2016. we lost the - lose. he hasn't won anything l since 2016. we lost the house in 18, — since 2016. we lost the house in 18, the _ since 2016. we lost the house in 18, the presidency- since 2016. we lost the house in 18, the presidency in - since 2016. we lost the house in 18, the presidency in 20, l since 2016. we lost the housel in 18, the presidency in 20, we would — in 18, the presidency in 20, we would have _ in 18, the presidency in 20, we would have won _ in 18, the presidency in 20, we would have won the _ in 18, the presidency in 20, we would have won the senate - in 18, the presidency in 20, we| would have won the senate this time _ would have won the senate this time in — would have won the senate this time in 22 — would have won the senate this time in 22 had _ would have won the senate this time in 22 had it— would have won the senate this time in 22 had it not— would have won the senate this time in 22 had it not been- would have won the senate this time in 22 had it not been for. time in 22 had it not been for trump — time in 22 had it not been for trumpand— time in 22 had it not been for trump and his— time in 22 had it not been for trump and his nominees - time in 22 had it not been for trump and his nominees in l time in 22 had it not been for. trump and his nominees in our key primary— trump and his nominees in our key primary elections. - trump and his nominees in our key primary elections. we - key primary elections. we probably— key primary elections. we probably picked _ key primary elections. we probably picked up - key primary elections. we probably picked up ten - key primary elections. we probably picked up ten or| key primary elections. we i probably picked up ten or 15 seats— probably picked up ten or 15 seats in— probably picked up ten or 15 seats in the _ probably picked up ten or 15 seats in the house - probably picked up ten or 15 seats in the house if- probably picked up ten or 15 seats in the house if it - probably picked up ten or 15. seats in the house if it wasn't for his— seats in the house if it wasn't for his involvement. -

seats in the house if it wasn't for his involvement. marianne, is it that black— for his involvement. marianne, is it that black and _ for his involvement. marianne, is it that black and white? - for his involvement. marianne, is it that black and white? in i is it that black and white? in it is donald trump was the candidate that it's clear that the republicans would lose? there's no question about it. paul ripe is right, the problem is for paul ryan, chris christie and nikki haley, voters aren't going to listen to them. let's be clear, donald trump is running for president again because it's — his get—out—of—jail card for free. that is what he's doing. all along the way he is going to use this campaign to stall and delay the trial that he was at the arraignment for today. conceivably you could have this trial and then it could be determined whether he's innocent or not, long before the election. what would not happen are the appeals. so you wouldn't get the appeals done but you could get the trial done. in all of this, it's very clear that donald trump is going to drag the entire republican party with him. there's no—one who can stop him or in evidence anybody who can. when you look at all of that

and that is before we get to a general election where women are very upset about abortion rights, everybody is upset about guns, you add those two factors in addition to all of trump's woes, and it is pretty easy to see the democrats keeping the white house, keeping the white house, keeping the white house, keeping the senate, and winning back the house. add to it the supreme court ruling the other day in alabama where you could conceivably see new maps not only in alabama, louisiana, north carolina and even new york perhaps, that's the house right there. donald trump is going to do a lot of damage along the way but what donald trump cares about most is donald trump. if he tried and convicted, he can still serve if he won the race and won the white house, he could still serve in — while in incarcerated and conceivable he could possibly pardon himself or have someone else do it for him in a trump administration. it's clear the country wants to avoid that very situation.

rinna, you wanted tojump in on that? rinna, you wanted to 'ump in on that? , , ., ., ., that? this is no longer paul r an's that? this is no longer paul ryan's republican - that? this is no longer paul ryan's republican party. i that? this is no longer paul. ryan's republican party. you know. — ryan's republican party. you know, one big message that sort of taken — know, one big message that sort of taken hold within even the more — of taken hold within even the more moderate republicans i talk to— more moderate republicans i talk to and have heard this over— talk to and have heard this over and _ talk to and have heard this over and over over the years is that, _ over and over over the years is that, you — over and over over the years is that, you know, look, donald trump— that, you know, look, donald trump is— that, you know, look, donald trump is out on this island on his own _ trump is out on this island on his own he _ trump is out on this island on his own. he doesn't care about anybody— his own. he doesn't care about anybody himself. but in essence, everytime anybody himself. but in essence, every time he comes out, _ essence, every time he comes out, and — essence, every time he comes out, and he talks to this unheard _ out, and he talks to this unheard american, this person living _ unheard american, this person living in— unheard american, this person living in a _ unheard american, this person living in a flyover state, for example. _ living in a flyover state, for example, and he's saying that, you know. _ example, and he's saying that, you know, the world is against america — you know, the world is against america but i'm putting america first, _ america but i'm putting america first, that — america but i'm putting america first, that sort of creates this— first, that sort of creates this sense that he's for them, and _ this sense that he's for them, and everything else gets kind of gets— and everything else gets kind of gets thrown out the window. many _ of gets thrown out the window. many republicans say over and over— many republicans say over and over again that he kept our allies— over again that he kept our allies and more importantly our enemies — allies and more importantly our enemies on their feet on their toes, _ enemies on their feet on their toes, excuse me, with all the sort _ toes, excuse me, with all the sort of— toes, excuse me, with all the sort of chaos and that type of stuff — sort of chaos and that type of stuff really can't go away overnight. so donald trump continues to have his impact on

the republican party and, yes, the republican party and, yes, the maga universe is getting smaller— the maga universe is getting smaller but with everything happening in the world, i think anything — happening in the world, i think anything is possible. could there — anything is possible. could there be that entry point that door— there be that entry point that door open for trump again? i don't — door open for trump again? i don't think— door open for trump again? i don't think we rule that out. 0k~ — don't think we rule that out. 0k. just _ don't think we rule that out. 0k. just want to add that we are waiting, of course, for the former president to arrive at the golf club for that speech we have been seeing images of that motorcade sneaking along, getting pretty close. we think he's fairly close from the images i'm seeing at least and should be arriving there and the speech is scheduled to start in about five minutes' time give or take, of course, seeing where he arrives there. chuck, i want to come back to you and ask you about the prospects for 202a. we know that arizona was a very important victory for the current president, joe biden, do you think donald trump has a chance to win a seat like arizona?— arizona? no, i can - unequivocally - arizona? no, i can - unequivocally say i arizona? no, i can - unequivocally say he arizona? no, i can - - unequivocally say he will not win arizona. he didn't win it in the last cycle and he's done nothing to expand the base. like i said, so what we're expecting in this cycle out

here in arizona is about a 36% republican turnout or 32% democratic turnout, and 28% unaffiliated turnout. so in order to win, anybody�*s got to get a majority that unaffiliated electorate. the maga republican has failed to win any of those — those unaffiliated voters since 2016, since he originally got elected. lost them in 2018 when kirsten was elected out here, lost them in 2020. we used to have two us senators that were republicans out here. and lost them in the last presidential cycle and then lost them again with kelly's re—election this last time. you know, it is unquestionable that — and that's, you know, as an arizona republican — former republican, i got to say i left after he started trashing mccain, but what i say is that i know the

scepticism is there, but somebody like paul ryan, somebody like paul ryan, somebody of these candidates is going to take up that cudgel and got to be a dawning amongst and got to be a dawning amongst a _ and got to be a dawning amongst a — ifully acknowledge and got to be a dawning amongst a — i fully acknowledge that there's 75% of republicans right now that are enamoured of this, but when they go in the voting boothst booth and there's months away now and plenty of time to mature this narrative and thank god for the news media, we'll be talking about this forever up until then, that we'll be able — there will be a narrative wave that a candidate or candidates can use to say, "we simply can't make the same mistake again." i can carry out these policies. sort of along what desantis has been trying to play - desantis has been trying to play — i can carry out his policies, i'm a cultural warrior, i'm against the woke democrats, but i'm a conservative at heart. hutchinson can do that, nikki

haley can do that. there's plenty of opportunities there to mature that narrative and build a narrative. it's not going to be well received at first but there's the opportunities there. well, as ou opportunities there. well, as you have _ opportunities there. well, as you have been _ opportunities there. well, as you have been speaking, - opportunities there. well, as you have been speaking, we| opportunities there. well, as - you have been speaking, we have seen the motorcade pull into the golf club through the parking lotjust as the president, the former president rather, is arriving there at the golf club with his motorcade is expected to take the podium very shortly, appears he's just been the podium very shortly, appears he'sjust been parking and getting out of the car, weir waiting for that moment to see the former president step out of the car there. as we're waiting for that, brad, out of the car there. as we're waiting forthat, brad, ijust want to ask you — we do know that the former president is facing other legal troubles. so the indictment in new york, we also know that we could see further indictments in the state of georgia, indictments — federal indictment, rath ir, on the 2020 election results and efforts to overturn those election results, rather.

logistically, how does that work to face all of these legal investigations possibly indictments and also be running for president?— for president? yes, so that's auoin to for president? yes, so that's going to be _ for president? yes, so that's going to be a _ for president? yes, so that's going to be a massive - going to be a massive logistical hurdle that there's not a whole lot of precedent for particularly in the context of a for particularly in the context ofa campaign. for particularly in the context of a campaign. you think about 2016, hillary clinton was dealing with the fbi investigation on her email server (audio gap) she had congressional hearing, she had to appearfor, but congressional hearing, she had to appear for, but that was just one day, it was an 11—hour thing. she's going to have at least two, possibly up to four different criminal proceedings going on over the next 18 months leading up to and ultimately culminating in the election of 202a. he's got the manhattan case in march that's supposed to go to trial if it doesn't get knocked out in pretile motions. this case are will be sometime in the summer and fulton county and georgia and fulton county and georgia and the federal case over the

2020 election, it could very well be that either get postponed to allow for larger ones to take place, could be we have multiple trials completed by the election is over. we're not — no—one really knows yet how it's going to work out. judges are going to try to figure out schedules and work with trump's legal terms as they try to juggle these different cases. trump has got tojuggle this different cases. trump has got to juggle this with his campaign schedule. i's going to be an administrative hurdle for them to be sure and no—one really knows how it will play out. ., ., . ., really knows how it will play out. ., ., .., . ,, out. helen, i want to come back to ou out. helen, i want to come back to you just _ out. helen, i want to come back to you just as — out. helen, i want to come back to you just as we're _ out. helen, i want to come back to you just as we're waiting - out. helen, i want to come back to you just as we're waiting to l to you just as we're waiting to see the former president any moment now taking the podium in newjerseyment you're there in miami. how do you think the former president will use the campaign essentially as the defence in this case? i campaign essentially as the defence in this case? i think many legal _ defence in this case? i think many legal experts - defence in this case? i think many legal experts are - defence in this case? i think i many legal experts are saying that this is perhaps one of his most compelling defences essentially trying to run for as long as possible even as

these various legal battles go on that your guests was just describing, notjust here in miami, but four separate cases across the country. essentially to get all the way to the white house, we know that last weekend in north carolina and weekend in north carolina and in georgia, he was telling in georgia, politico he doesn't intend to run even if he's indicted, even if he's convicted and i think it's fair to say for an international audience, that appears fairly noteworthy. they're thinking, "can you possibly?" and occthe answer is with this us constitution, there is nothing that would prohibit him from doing so. and trump is very cognisant of the fact that the department of justice doesn't have a policy of indicting a sitting president and moreover if he were, indeed, the 2024 presidential victor, were, indeed, the 2024 presidentialvictor, he were, indeed, the 2024 presidential victor, he might also seek a way to get the department ofjustice to essentially get this investigation into him to disappear. so that is perhaps

one of his, perhaps the greatest legal avenue, he will look to appeal in terms of his defence, but we are going to be entering a really interesting period of discovery because right now, that 49—page indictment is one of the high points for the prosecution, but essentially what has to happen now is that evidence has to get handed over to the defence to go forward and then they have this task of essentially challenging the narrative that has been put forward in that narrative one would expect that that would be a challenging thing to do when we have seen those very compelling pictures when we have heard trance scriptions of... when we have heard trance scriptions of. . ._ when we have heard trance scriptions of... i'm 'ust going to interrupt h scriptions of... i'm 'ust going to interrupt you. _ scriptions of... i'm just going to interrupt you. we - scriptions of... i'm just going to interrupt you. we are - scriptions of... i'm just going l to interrupt you. we are seeing the former president arriving here on stage, sorry to interrupt. yourself seeing him arrive and let's listen in.