partygate: is it time to move on? ahead of the vote on thejohnson report. the video has emerged of the revelry at tory hq on 2020, december the 14th. ., ., a, revelry at tory hq on 2020, december the 14th. ., ., n, ., . ~ the 14th. that teatime, matt hancock looked at us — the 14th. that teatime, matt hancock looked at us with _ the 14th. that teatime, matt hancock looked at us with his _ the 14th. that teatime, matt hancock looked at us with his serious - the 14th. that teatime, matt hancock looked at us with his serious face - looked at us with his serious face and said the news on the spread of the virus is not good. just down the road that evening, dodgy behaviour, in the background, someone heard saying as long as we don't stream that, we are like bending the rules. two people danced past a sign saying

please keep your distance before colliding with the bouquet. given what you went through, do you find it hard to stomach two a long hangover for it hard to stomach two a long hangoverfor rishi it hard to stomach two a long hangover for rishi sunak, it hard to stomach two a long hangoverfor rishi sunak, the prime minister doesn't even drink. partygate, is it time to move on? that is what we are discussing. and here is the news. mps will debate the privleges committee's report which found borisjohnson deliberately misled parliament over lockdown parties in number 10. the former prime minister resigned as an mp after seeing its conclusions before the report was published last week. it's unclear whether rishi sunak will attend today's debate. labour has confirmed it's to end new north sea oil and gas exploration —

if it wins the next general election. the party leader — sir keir starmer — will also announce plans to set up a publicly—owned green energy company — based in scotland — when he speaks in edinburgh this morning. a typical two—year fixed mortgage deal now has an interest rate of more than 6 percent — for the first time since december. mortgage lenders have been pulling and re—pricing deals at a rapid rate in recent weeks. data on wages and rising prices mean markets anticipate inflation and interest rates will stay higher for longer in the uk — than previously expected. data obtained by the bbc suggests a quarter of people on antidepressants in england have been taking them for 5 years. more than eight million people received them last year — with prescriptions doubling in a decade.

the video that has emerged, where you someone who stuck to the rules and made sacrifices and it all you could to protect your loved ones and those near you, your colleagues, does this video add insult to injury a few are you feeling angry, apathetic, there are some people, talking to people on a daily basis as i do, no, we all did a little bit of that, it is time to move on. well, that moment. it's a very drunken dancing, ten lords a leaping, nine ladies

dancing, lots of unforgivable dancing, lots of unforgivable dancing, not one fixed penalty notice, and the distraught and lonely people the length and breadth of the country trying to do the right thing. are there those who say, cut them some slack? not so michael gove, he said this yesterday. yelling back this was happening in your party headquarters in downing street on your party's watch. should you apologise? i am sor and watch. should you apologise? i am sorry and i— watch. should you apologise? i am sorry and i do _ watch. should you apologise? i —.h sorry and i do apologise, this watch. should you apologise? i 5h sorry and i do apologise, this event led to an investigation that has happened. the video is new but it was known there was an event, there was known there was an event, there was a photograph that was made public, as a result, there was an investigation, disciplinary action was taken, and as we all know, there have been police investigations as to what happened in downing street, putting that to one side, on a

personal level, i would like to apologise to people for this behaviour, it is unacceptable and indefensible.— indefensible. unacceptable and indefensible, _ indefensible. unacceptable and indefensible, do _ indefensible. unacceptable and indefensible, do you _ indefensible. unacceptable and indefensible, do you agree - indefensible. unacceptable and| indefensible, do you agree with indefensible. unacceptable and - indefensible, do you agree with him on that? we have got ali in cambridge. lynjones, covid—i9 cambridge. lyn jones, covid—i9 bereaved cambridge. lynjones, covid—i9 bereaved families forjustice. good morning. ali, how do you feel? i think it's almost as if these people do not want to be held accountable. we were asked not to speculate because there was a respectable committee being convened looking to these events and we should not speculate on what date or did not happen. the media were charged with throwing up unnecessary froth. now the committee convened and has given

us their considered opinion, we are told people are not interested in hearing about this any more and that we should move on. i know michael gove, putting that aside, yes, it's all unforgivable. but let's move on. no, you are about to speak to someone who was bereaved through this whole process, i think people were hugely impacted by this. right across society. people should account for their behaviour. boris johnson's tantrum, i'm not going to be held accountable, by my constituents, that is despicable. d0 constituents, that is despicable. do remember what your life was like in 2022 , ., ., ., ., .,

remember what your life was like in 2022 ., .,., ., ., , 2022 similar to a lot of people, we did not perhaps — 2022 similar to a lot of people, we did not perhaps know— 2022 similar to a lot of people, we did not perhaps know how - 2022 similar to a lot of people, we did not perhaps know how serious| 2022 similar to a lot of people, we | did not perhaps know how serious it was going to be, but we accepted in order to protect the pearly invested nhs there was a requirement to stay—at—home and we stayed at home. the numbers in terms of deaths were staggering, it was frightening. to have lived through it and you are going to speak to someone who was bereaved, i cannot imagine the rage that people are feeling, i suspect you are about to hear that. mi that people are feeling, i suspect you are about to hear that. ali was referrin: you are about to hear that. ali was referring to — you are about to hear that. ali was referring to your _ you are about to hear that. ali was referring to your thoughts, - you are about to hear that. ali was referring to your thoughts, lynne, | referring to your thoughts, lynne, which will be hearing. good morning, chris, what do you think? i do which will be hearing. good morning, chris, what do you think?— chris, what do you think? i do not understand. _ chris, what do you think? i do not understand, they _ chris, what do you think? i do not understand, they were _ chris, what do you think? i do not understand, they were fining - understand, they were fining students £10,000 for having parties, students _ students £10,000 for having parties, students who are probably still paying — students who are probably still paying those fines. then they were shutting _

paying those fines. then they were shutting down gyms and book shops that try— shutting down gyms and book shops that try to— shutting down gyms and book shops that try to stay open and they close forever~ _ that try to stay open and they close forever~ i _ that try to stay open and they close forever. i think it's ridiculous. the _ forever. i think it's ridiculous. the incumbent party did not follow the rules, — the incumbent party did not follow the rules, the ruined people's lives and they— the rules, the ruined people's lives and they could not follow the rules themselves. untilthe and they could not follow the rules themselves. until the exercise they are demons, they will not be forgiven— are demons, they will not be forgiven for the chaos they caused. if forgiven for the chaos they caused. it they— forgiven for the chaos they caused. if they cannot accept responsibility for those _ if they cannot accept responsibility for those rules and accept the punishment they handed out, why should _ punishment they handed out, why should anyone trust them to govern? no fixed _ should anyone trust them to govern? no fixed penalty notices were handed out for that particular get—together. the police looked at... get-together. the police looked at. . . , ., get-together. the police looked at... , ., , , yes,| at... they were to students. yes, i know that- — at... they were to students. yes, i know that. the _ at... they were to students. yes, i know that. the police _ at... they were to students. yes, i know that. the police are - at... they were to students. yes, i know that. the police are looking l at... they were to students. yes, i | know that. the police are looking at things again in the light of the emergence of this video. my

daughter's friends, the police went down to the halls of residence and got to recognise their footsteps, lots of students got busted every night and find. make a good point. threw out the whole thing, i especially the start, i did not know what _ especially the start, i did not know what was _ especially the start, i did not know what was going on. i work for royal mail and _ what was going on. i work for royal mail and we — what was going on. i work for royal mailand we were what was going on. i work for royal mail and we were working 18 hours a day at _ mail and we were working 18 hours a day at times, all the shops were closed _ day at times, all the shops were closed and — day at times, all the shops were closed and we became the shops. we were run_ closed and we became the shops. we were run off— closed and we became the shops. we were run off our feet. we were not allowed _ were run off our feet. we were not allowed to — were run off our feet. we were not allowed to use the toilet anywhere, we couldn't go into shops because they were — we couldn't go into shops because they were closed, can you imagine being _ they were closed, can you imagine being 45— they were closed, can you imagine being 45 minutes away from the nearest — being 45 minutes away from the nearest toilet? and you need to go when _ nearest toilet? and you need to go when you _ nearest toilet? and you need to go when you can't. and we were being told, _ when you can't. and we were being told. wash— when you can't. and we were being told, wash your hands, and then as i -ot told, wash your hands, and then as i got further— told, wash your hands, and then as i got further into it, and we were

locked — got further into it, and we were locked down, it was ridiculous! and then you _ locked down, it was ridiculous! and then you find out these guys who handed _ then you find out these guys who handed out the rules are completely... theyjust care about them _ completely... theyjust care about them the — completely... theyjust care about them. the ruined people's lives. we can't _ them. the ruined people's lives. we can'tiust_ them. the ruined people's lives. we can'tjust watch that them. the ruined people's lives. we can't just watch that under the bridge — can't just watch that under the bridge and let it go unless someone is held _ bridge and let it go unless someone is held to _ bridge and let it go unless someone is held to account. the people that are being _ is held to account. the people that are being held to account for it, which _ are being held to account for it, which is — are being held to account for it, which is the conservatives, and rightty— which is the conservatives, and rightly so, _ which is the conservatives, and rightly so, no, no, it's fine, we've -ot rightly so, no, no, it's fine, we've got rid _ rightly so, no, no, it's fine, we've got rid of— rightly so, no, no, it's fine, we've got rid of him _ rightly so, no, no, it's fine, we've got rid of him now but some are still supporting him. no, just no. ? i still supporting him. no, just no. ? i want _ still supporting him. no, just no. ? i want to— still supporting him. no, just no. ? i want to bring someone else in, our political correspondent. lynne, i will be right with you, i know you want to comment on what you are hearing from our listeners as well.

john, do you agree with ali and chris? , , ., , john, do you agree with ali and chris? , , .,, , ., ., chris? these people should not get awa with chris? these people should not get away with it. _ chris? these people should not get away with it, the _ chris? these people should not get away with it, the fact _ chris? these people should not get away with it, the fact that - chris? these people should not get away with it, the fact that people . away with it, the fact that people are saying it awhile ago, get over it kind of thing. that is the argument, i believe, iagree with that, no, the families, we all suffered in different ways. i cannot see any way in which these people... they're at it again. especially the tory party. the blind monkeys put their hands over their eyes and all that kind of stuff. that is their attitude to everything. they haven't got long in office, thank god. they need to be penalised and punished

before it's over. i know everybody was involved, if you are the tory party and one of your mps and you have been involved, in a bad way, say so. don't keep your mouth shut. there will be some who have been involved in a bad way but the ordinary people who had to look down, there was nothing wrong with me, but my wife has a condition and she took it literally, when she is these that don't go out, she did not go out. i had to drag her out. in the end, she died of a heart attack. and these people, once the cameras were off, get round the bank, they didn't do too bad there, boris kumar how did you get on? where is the

party tonight? that is the kind of attitude you've obviously got. i'm all right, jack. i agree with all your listeners, they should not be allowed to get away with it. they are just as criminal as any criminal. i had my way, and i won the euro lottery, i would take boris johnson to court for manslaughter. that's how bad they are. i suppose, it is all about _ that's how bad they are. i suppose, it is all about hearing _ that's how bad they are. i suppose, it is all about hearing your - that's how bad they are. i suppose, it is all about hearing your views, i it is all about hearing your views, i am so sorry to hear about your wife. any right minded person can understand how people in your situation are angry about this. the other side of the argument is that it's all got a little bit out of proportion. we are hearing oral arguments right now. i am going to

be with nick and a second. thank you so much for getting in touch, chris, are you still with us? i so much for getting in touch, chris, are you still with us?— are you still with us? i am still here. are you still with us? i am still here- on _ are you still with us? i am still here- on a _ are you still with us? i am still here. on a one _ are you still with us? i am still here. on a one on _ are you still with us? i am still here. on a one on one, - are you still with us? i am still. here. on a one on one, between ourselves. _ here. on a one on one, between ourselves. i— here. on a one on one, between ourselves, i was _ here. on a one on one, between ourselves, i was painfully - here. on a one on one, between ourselves, i was painfully aware| ourselves, i was painfully aware because of what i do, my profile, that i had to do everything by the book. i thought, that i had to do everything by the book. ithought, that that i had to do everything by the book. i thought, that would be terrible if i... and i remember sanctimoniously, i remembertaking terrible if i... and i remember sanctimoniously, i remember taking a couple of days, an extra dog walk, my reasoning was it was an animal welfare issue, and i remember feeling guilty about it. how strange is that? you know?— feeling guilty about it. how strange is that? you know? because you were thinkin: is that? you know? because you were thinking about — is that? you know? because you were thinking about it. _ is that? you know? because you were thinking about it. i— is that? you know? because you were thinking about it. i feel _ is that? you know? because you were thinking about it. i feel emotional- thinking about it. i feel emotional now because _ thinking about it. i feel emotional now because it _ thinking about it. i feel emotional

now because it was _ thinking about it. i feel emotional now because it was such - thinking about it. i feel emotional now because it was such a - thinking about it. i feel emotional now because it was such a weird i now because it was such a weird time. i tell you what, i will come back to you with those thoughts. 0ur political correspondent, heller, nick. , ., ., ., political correspondent, heller, nick. ., i political correspondent, heller, nick-_ i was - political correspondent, heller, i nick._ i was saying, political correspondent, heller, - nick._ i was saying, it nick. good morning. iwas saying, it is a lona nick. good morning. iwas saying, it is a long and — nick. good morning. iwas saying, it is a long and nasty _ nick. good morning. iwas saying, it is a long and nasty hangover - nick. good morning. iwas saying, it is a long and nasty hangover for - is a long and nasty hangover for rishi sunak, a man who restricts himself to coca—cola. it is himself to coca-cola. it is following _ himself to coca-cola. it is following him _ himself to coca-cola. it is following him around, - himself to coca-cola. it is| following him around, this himself to coca—cola. it 3 following him around, this is the last thing he wanted to talk about this week, the vote tonight in parliament that we think is going to happen on borisjohnson's remarks to parliament which were judged to be deliberately misled mps or the video we saw emerge in the mirror yesterday. it is one of those studies that keeps coming back, and thatis studies that keeps coming back, and that is bad news for the government, because it means that the prime

minister is asked questions time and again, he is always asked whether borisjohnson should still be in parliament, whether he is an asset to his party, whether he will vote tonight, and rishi sunak does not want to talk about it but is being forced to. ., , , .,, ., forced to. some of these people at this -a forced to. some of these people at this party have _ forced to. some of these people at this party have been _ forced to. some of these people at this party have been given - forced to. some of these people at this party have been given gongs i this party have been given gongs subsequently, lord bailey is not in the video, that is a further layer of embarrassment. the the video, that is a further layer of embarrassment. the argument you are startin: of embarrassment. the argument you are starting to — of embarrassment. the argument you are starting to hear _ of embarrassment. the argument you are starting to hear from _ of embarrassment. the argument you are starting to hear from labour - are starting to hear from labour this morning is that rishi sunak should not have signed all of these gongs in the first place. he should have waited to see what happened with the privileges committee report into borisjohnson then decided whether borisjohnson was a fit and proper person to hand out these awards in the first place. it was interesting, keir starmer was on the radio this morning, if he becomes prime minister, he will not have a

resignation, he will not do what borisjohnson did and hand out seats in the house of lords and other owners to people who have helped him in his political career. look, there are two elements, one is is it right that these people should be getting these owners? there is going to be a big debate over that. it is uncomfortable for rishi sunak. then the question whether he is right to take boris johnson's the question whether he is right to take borisjohnson's passer parliament taken of him, which would have suspended him from parliament for 90 days, both of those things mean that rishi sunak is in an uncomfortable position, boris johnson keeps having his reputation damaged even further. and all the while, for a conservative government thatis while, for a conservative government that is already struggling in the polls, and is desperate to talk about things like the economy, small boats, the nhs, and is desperate to

come up with other talking points, it is not getting to do it because partygate keeps coming back. thank ou, our partygate keeps coming back. thank you. our political— partygate keeps coming back. thank you, our political correspondent. and we have gotjosh and chris and ali are still there. ali, stay one —— see one more thing. i ali are still there. ali, stay one -- see one more thing.- ali are still there. ali, stay one -- see one more thing. i was making the oint -- see one more thing. i was making the point you — -- see one more thing. i was making the point you reason _ -- see one more thing. i was making the point you reason you _ -- see one more thing. i was making the point you reason you felt - -- see one more thing. i was making the point you reason you felt guilty i the point you reason you felt guilty for taking your dog out was because you watch the news conference as the rest of the country, when they said one infected person will infect three more and three more and the chance of transmission... could you please stay at home? and protect our health service? clearly, the leader of the country at the time did not feel he needed to think about it nor did any of the people advising him, the same people who created the rose, who used the science to create the rules for us. it is a staggering

kind of i don't know if it is hubris, that it doesn't matter? i do not know how to describe it. ? group think,. ., , ., think,. you can lose the plot. good mornin: , think,. you can lose the plot. good morning. josh- _ think,. you can lose the plot. good morning. josh- i— think,. you can lose the plot. good morning, josh. i lost _ think,. you can lose the plot. good morning, josh. i lost my _ think,. you can lose the plot. good morning, josh. i lost my mum, - morning, josh. i lost my mum, grandmother — morning, josh. i lost my mum, grandmother and _ morning, josh. i lost my mum, grandmother and brother - morning, josh. i lost my mum, grandmother and brotherjust l morning, josh. i lost my mum, - grandmother and brotherjust before covid-i9 _ grandmother and brotherjust before covid—19 hit, and in the month before, — covid—19 hit, and in the month before, we _ covid—19 hit, and in the month before, we had my brother's funeral. ifeet_ before, we had my brother's funeral. ifeet tucky— before, we had my brother's funeral. i feel lucky we were able to have a funeral— i feel lucky we were able to have a funeral in — i feel lucky we were able to have a funeral in that weird situation, and how everyone was listening to the rules, _ how everyone was listening to the rules, that — how everyone was listening to the rules, that first christmas in december 2020 will strange without three crucial members of my family. i am three crucial members of my family. i am only— three crucial members of my family. i am onlyjust... we were meant to have _ i am onlyjust... we were meant to have it _ i am onlyjust... we were meant to have it with— i am onlyjust... we were meant to have it with my sister—in—law who was on _ have it with my sister—in—law who was on her— have it with my sister—in—law who was on her own because of the

bubble. — was on her own because of the bubble, she was in her house by herself— bubble, she was in her house by herself without my brother. 0n herself without my brother. on christmas _ herself without my brother. on christmas 2020, there was lockdown, and we _ christmas 2020, there was lockdown, and we had _ christmas 2020, there was lockdown, and we had to rush out to the supermarket and buy whatever was left for _ supermarket and buy whatever was left for christmas dinner suit me and nry— left for christmas dinner suit me and my dad has something to eat on that day— and my dad has something to eat on that day because we were planning to spend _ that day because we were planning to spend it _ that day because we were planning to spend it with my sister—in—law and her family — spend it with my sister—in—law and her family. we ended up on our house atone _ her family. we ended up on our house alone without my brother, without my mum: _ alone without my brother, without my mum, without my grandmother, and the fact i mum, without my grandmother, and the fact i feel— mum, without my grandmother, and the fact i feel lucky we were able to have _ fact i feel lucky we were able to have funerals for them is tantamount to how— have funerals for them is tantamount to how horrific this would have been who lost _ to how horrific this would have been who lost people during covid—19 and could _ who lost people during covid—19 and could not— who lost people during covid—19 and could not see goodbye. it is unforgivable what they were doing and the _ unforgivable what they were doing and the contempt they show to people and the contempt they show to people and the _ and the contempt they show to people and the disregard for all the rules they were — and the disregard for all the rules they were imposing. just to have a

jolly _ they were imposing. just to have a jolly a— they were imposing. just to have a jolly. a work event. it was necessary for morale. it is despicable. necessary for morale. it is despicable-— necessary for morale. it is despicable. necessary for morale. it is desicable. ~ ., ,. ., despicable. what was your visceral reaction when _ despicable. what was your visceral reaction when you _ despicable. what was your visceral reaction when you saw— despicable. what was your visceral reaction when you saw the - despicable. what was your visceral reaction when you saw the video? | despicable. what was your visceral i reaction when you saw the video? on one level, it is a comedian, the terrible dancing and the sweater, bumping into the table, good job this is not streaming because we are not abiding by the rules. 0n this is not streaming because we are not abiding by the rules. on a deeper level, it is extremely serious, isn't it?— deeper level, it is extremely serious, isn't it? watching the video was _ serious, isn't it? watching the video was not _ serious, isn't it? watching the video was not surprising, - serious, isn't it? watching the video was not surprising, it. serious, isn't it? watching the video was not surprising, it is | serious, isn't it? watching the i video was not surprising, it is not surprising — video was not surprising, it is not surprising that throughout the whole time we _ surprising that throughout the whole time we were being lied to and 95% of the _ time we were being lied to and 95% of the country were following the rules _ of the country were following the rules and — of the country were following the rules and receiving fines if they did not— rules and receiving fines if they did not and being held responsible and accountable for their actions where _ and accountable for their actions where as— and accountable for their actions where as the people making the rules

were not— where as the people making the rules were not accountable in any way at all. were not accountable in any way at alt it _ were not accountable in any way at alt it ism — were not accountable in any way at alt it ism it— were not accountable in any way at all. it is... it is not a shock that another— all. it is... it is not a shock that another story— all. it is... it is not a shock that another story comes out where they sent out _ another story comes out where they sent out someone to apologise. they send out _ sent out someone to apologise. they send out michael gove to apologise. i am send out michael gove to apologise. i am not _ send out michael gove to apologise. i am not a _ send out michael gove to apologise. i am not a tory voter but i do have sympathy— i am not a tory voter but i do have sympathy with michael gove, he sent my sister—in—law in letter when my brother— my sister—in—law in letter when my brother passed away saying sorry for what had _ brother passed away saying sorry for what had happened. he is part of the party that— what had happened. he is part of the party that allowed this to happen and let— party that allowed this to happen and let it — party that allowed this to happen and let it go on and he cannot have not known — and let it go on and he cannot have not known about it. it is despicable.— not known about it. it is despicable. not known about it. it is desicable. . ~' . despicable. thank you so much. takin: despicable. thank you so much. taking an _ despicable. thank you so much. taking an effort _ despicable. thank you so much. taking an effort to _ despicable. thank you so much. taking an effort to call- despicable. thank you so much. taking an effort to call and - despicable. thank you so much. taking an effort to call and see l despicable. thank you so much. l taking an effort to call and see all that. lynnejones taking an effort to call and see all that. lynne jones from the taking an effort to call and see all that. lynnejones from the coleford bereaved families forjustice. not a

lot of sympathy for the revellers this morning. it is apolitical, largely. it is people who are not making party political points, we had some strong stuff a moment ago. other than that, i do not feel we are talking tribal politics here. what do you think about what you've heard two i what do you think about what you've heard tw~ ., ., what do you think about what you've heard tw. ., ., ., heard two i agree with all of them. i was encouraged _ heard two i agree with all of them. i was encouraged really. _ heard two i agree with all of them. i was encouraged really. the - heard two i agree with all of them. l i was encouraged really. the reason you are saying it is not political and you are right, it is human. this is so bad what was going on. my story is that gareth was in hospital for seven weeks with covid—19, a healthy man taken like that. all those weeks he was on his own, we could only telephone, or we could have fixed time with him, occasionally, but he must have been

terrified. a healthy man, 66 years old, got this terrible virus and for all those weeks he was alone. that is the backdrop. and his story is repeated over and over again. i also want to make the point about the doctors and nurses at that time, we were in that situation talking to doctors on the telephone, and i felt the whole time they were at their wits end. they were not having parties. they were good doctors and good nurses who did not know which way to turn while all that was going on by the people who had made the rules and the decisions. those people as well. my story is around us. we will note for get over it. do not tell me to move on. we have a life sentence. my husband has gone, i have got two wonderful daughters, how do we go on from this? it is terrible what has gone on. it is not political. it is human. you should

not treat people like this in the last days of their lives. people had funerals during that time. ten people at the funeral, you have lost someone all your life and you have a funeral with ten people. it is human, it is wrong, it is unforgivable. if they will stand up and you make the point about rishi sunak, he should do the right thing. all of them should do the right thing. they are all complicit if they do not. the right thing as go ahead with borisjohnson not serving again, go ahead with the band that he does not get the pass into the house of commons, considered, i do not know the full story, but consider the financial things, not know the full story, but considerthe financialthings, prime consider the financial things, prime ministers considerthe financialthings, prime ministers get £150,000 a year for the rest of their lives, considered the rest of their lives, considered the people that he has nominated for

the people that he has nominated for the owners list, again, that needs to be considered because i don't know enough about those two stories, and the next thing they all need to do is comply honestly and truthfully with the inquiry. joe goodman and matt fowler, two bereaved people in april 2020, they are only young, they started this group to get the full story about what was going on so that we do not repeat it. what they can do now as they can be accountable. they can tell us the truth. they can go to those meetings that have been started and they can tell the truth. and they can be accountable. you cannot forgive this on a human level. not a political level, a human level, and today, they ought to vote and they ought to do the right thing on a human level. it is the anger which is coming through. looking at the texts,

seeing the messages, it is pretty one—sided. that is what we are here for. we are here to reflect what people are saying. i am remembering the anger that parents had with my daughter and their friends, the anger that parents had with my daughter and theirfriends, can the anger that parents had with my daughter and their friends, can you pay a fixed penalty notice a few i can't pay it, you will pay it yourself. lots of mums and dads were angry at the students. at the same time, they will be in young people. they could not understand what was going on, and they were having a sneaky drink in the halls of residence. that is different, isn't it? people are saying now,... it is much more _ it? people are saying now,... it is much more serious, _ it? people are saying now,... it 3 much more serious, they make the rules and they do not follow their own rules and their leader lies to the house of commons. gets the suit

great report, a massive amount of money when he knew they were breaking the rules, he deliberately misled parliament. he spent all that money, knowing that he was breaking the rules and they all wear. you expect better. i’m the rules and they all wear. you expect better-— the rules and they all wear. you exect better. �* , , �* expect better. i'm sure they weren't all breaking — expect better. i'm sure they weren't all breaking the _ expect better. i'm sure they weren't all breaking the rules. _ expect better. i'm sure they weren't all breaking the rules. i'm _ expect better. i'm sure they weren't all breaking the rules. i'm sure - all breaking the rules. i'm sure they were _ all breaking the rules. i'm sure they were all. _ all breaking the rules. i'm sure they were all, there _ all breaking the rules. i'm sure they were all, there were - all breaking the rules. i'm sure they were all, there were good people, but if they are good people and they are sitting in parliament today, then they should do the right thing otherwise everyone is complicit. what needs to happen, they need to do all those things to borisjohnson, and then they need to cooperate fully with inquiry that these two young peel started that has got momentum. they need to turn up has got momentum. they need to turn up to those meetings, all of them, and tell the truth. that is what should happen now after these

consequences for boris johnson. thank consequences for borisjohnson. thank you for coming, we will take another call. good morning. goad another call. good morning. good morninu. another call. good morning. good morning- you _ another call. good morning. good morning. you have _ another call. good morning. good morning. you have seen - another call. good morning. good morning. you have seen the - another call. good morning. good| morning. you have seen the video. another call. good morning. good i morning. you have seen the video. i have seen the _ morning. you have seen the video. i have seen the video _ morning. you have seen the video. i have seen the video and _ morning. you have seen the video. i have seen the video and i _ morning. you have seen the video. i have seen the video and i think- morning. you have seen the video. i have seen the video and i think theyj have seen the video and i think they are disgusting, to be honest. i spent — are disgusting, to be honest. i spent 69 — are disgusting, to be honest. i spent 69 days in a coma with covid-i9 _ spent 69 days in a coma with covid—19 and came home in a wheelchair and i have recovered with the hetp— wheelchair and i have recovered with the help of— wheelchair and i have recovered with the help of my family at my wife, i received _ the help of my family at my wife, i received one phone call on face time from nry— received one phone call on face time from my wife which was great support _ from my wife which was great support. people are getting owners, he is getting a pension, he knew what _ he is getting a pension, he knew what was — he is getting a pension, he knew what was going on, he has lied to us and parliament and he should answer for it _ and parliament and he should answer for it. in_ and parliament and he should answer for it. . . , he and parliament and he should answer for it._ he should -

and parliament and he should answer for it._ he should lose i for it. in what way? he should lose his pension- _ for it. in what way? he should lose his pension. those _ for it. in what way? he should lose his pension. those people - for it. in what way? he should lose his pension. those people should l for it. in what way? he should lose l his pension. those people should be sacked _ his pension. those people should be sacked. they are in breach of all the covered regulations on at the time _ the covered regulations on at the time they— the covered regulations on at the time. they were not bending the rutes— time. they were not bending the rules they— time. they were not bending the rules they were obviously breaking them. everyone else had to comply with that, _ them. everyone else had to comply with that, we had a terrible christmas that year. i was still recovering, it took me eight months to recover— recovering, it took me eight months to recover when i came home from hospitat _ to recover when i came home from hospitat i— to recover when i came home from hospital. i was being spoon fed, living _ hospital. i was being spoon fed, living an — hospital. i was being spoon fed, living an adapted bungalow, in march, — living an adapted bungalow, in march, i— living an adapted bungalow, in march, i had to finish work through a long _ march, i had to finish work through a long covid—19. and all i get this estate _ a long covid—19. and all i get this estate pension. he gets hundred and £50,000 _ estate pension. he gets hundred and £50,000 a _ estate pension. he gets hundred and £50,000 a year. i stopped by the rutes— £50,000 a year. i stopped by the rules working on the railway, court covid-i9. — rules working on the railway, court covid—19, and now! rules working on the railway, court covid—19, and now i am paying for it. covid—19, and now i am paying for it my— covid—19, and now i am paying for it. my mother died. my auntie died. there _ it. my mother died. my auntie died. there were — it. my mother died. my auntie died. there were ten people at the funerat _ there were ten people at the funeral. they let our children go to the funeral— funeral. they let our children go to the funeral because it was the

grandmother. we couldn't go to my auntie's _ grandmother. we couldn't go to my auntie's funeral because there was no travelling. and they are all having — no travelling. and they are all having parties. this is the only video— having parties. this is the only video that _ having parties. this is the only video that people are seeing but i don't _ video that people are seeing but i don't know what else was going on behind _ don't know what else was going on behind closed doors. he was a law unto himself. he allowed this to happen — unto himself. he allowed this to happen. how much can we believe the statements— happen. how much can we believe the statements they were making every day? misleading the public. 0ther day? misleading the public. other countries— day? misleading the public. other countries shot down and stopped. there _ countries shot down and stopped. there was— countries shot down and stopped. there was nothing like this has come out of— there was nothing like this has come out of other— there was nothing like this has come out of other countries. thank you so much. are you kind of getting there no? it is your health and printing? i getting there no? it is your health and printing?— and printing? i have long-term disease no. — and printing? i have long-term disease no, the _ and printing? i have long-term disease no, the start _ and printing? i have long-term disease no, the start of- and printing? i have long-term i disease no, the start of dementia, damage _ disease no, the start of dementia, damage to — disease no, the start of dementia, damage to my brain off it, my nervous — damage to my brain off it, my nervous system a is short stop.

nervous system a is short if damage to my brain off it, my nervous system a is short if i can io nervous system a is short if i can go out _ nervous system a is short if i can go out my— nervous system a is short if i can go out my own. i would have loved to have parted _ go out my own. i would have loved to have parted instead of being in hospital. — have parted instead of being in hospital, sticking to these laws, not laws, — hospital, sticking to these laws, not laws, just guidelines. you hospital, sticking to these laws, not laws, just guidelines. not laws, 'ust guidelines. you take care of not laws, just guidelines. you take care of yourself, _ not laws, just guidelines. you take care of yourself, thank _ not laws, just guidelines. you take care of yourself, thank you - not laws, just guidelines. you take care of yourself, thank you very i care of yourself, thank you very much indeed. get in touch. the overarching question we are asking, partygate, is it time to move on? very squarely our viewers are saying no, that is the reaction coming in.

mps will decide whether to endorse a report that found boris johnson deliberately misled parliament over lockdown parties in downing street. the privileges committee says the former prime minister should have been suspended from the commons for 90 days if he'd remained as an mp. it's not clear if rishi sunak will turn up to the debate today. labour has confirmed it will end new north sea oil and gas exploration — if it wins the next general election. the party leader — sir keir starmer will vow to "cut bills, create jobs and provide energy security" — when he speaks in edinburgh later. a typical two—year fixed mortgage deal has reached an interest rate of more than 6% — for the first time since december.

the prime minister — rishi sunak — says there won't be any help given to people who are struggling. data obtained by the bbc shows around one in four people on antidepressants in england have been taking them for five years. that's despite there being limited evidence — of benefits for taking them for long periods of time. brendan rodgers is set to be named the new celtic manager. negotiations have been ongoing for over a week but its understood rodgers has now committed to returning on a long term deal. he won seven trophies in almost three years with the club before leaving for leicester city in 2019. it's set to be a crucial fourth morning of the 1st ashes test with england resuming their second innings on 28 for 2 — after losing both openers in the space of three balls yesterday. england lead australia by 35 runs. joe root and ollie pope will be at the crease when play gets underway at 11 o'clock. rory mcilroy says he "would go through 100 sundays like this" to get his hands on another major title after falling

short at the us open in los angeles. mcilroy was pipped to the trophy by american wyndham clark who won his first major by one shot. england head coach steve borthwick has added fifteen new faces to his england training squad ahead of the rugby world cup in september. the players are all from northampton saints and leicester tigers and include saints back row courtney lawes and england's most capped men's player ben youngs. and red bull's max verstappen says it's incredible to equal ayrton senna's career total of 41 victories — it's his dominant win at the canadian grand prix yesterday.

more to come on the partygate fallout. first off, let me tell you what is happening at ten o'clock right here on your radio, and telly. rishi sunak has this morning been on the telly ruling out extra help for homeowners struggling to pay mortgage costs. this morning a typical two year fixed mortgage they want above 2% for the first time since december. that is what we are discussing this morning, i did not happen this morning. 0n discussing this morning, i did not happen this morning. on thursday it is expected the bank of england will raise rates again from their current rate of 4.5% to try and get inflation under control. you know those arguments but you also know what it is costing so many of you. would you welcome some mortgage relief? get in touch.

more of your calls to come. some really powerful testimony from our listeners. adam, a barrister at doughty street chambers. how are you doing? i know you became something of a sort of merit as professor uber academic on the rules, as they kept evolving and you are a kind of go true to say is that against the rules, for the rules? 14th of december 20 20, 24 people at this

party, how serious a breach of the regulations that we see?— regulations that we see? well, at the time london _ regulations that we see? well, at the time london was _ regulations that we see? well, at the time london was in _ regulations that we see? well, at the time london was in tier - regulations that we see? well, at the time london was in tier 2, i regulations that we see? well, at i the time london was in tier 2, there was three tiers, this was between need two knockdowns, one in november and one which started injanuary, but still very strict rules, you could not socialise indoors and you certainly could not have a party like this with no social distancing, no obvious consideration of the rules. i think it is pretty certain this was a breach of the rules. brute this was a breach of the rules. we saw the photograph before and there were no fixed penalty notices from the photograph. now we've seen the video and the cops are saying they're going to look at that again, there is a fair amount of pressure for them to dojust there is a fair amount of pressure for them to do just that. the mere fact that there was nothing done when we saw the photographs, does that show that it is actually quite

difficult to prove. ?_ difficult to prove. ? it... it is difficult to prove. ? it... it is difficult to — difficult to prove. ? it... it is difficult to know _ difficult to prove. ? it... it is difficult to know what - difficult to prove. ? it... it is difficult to know what it - difficult to prove. ? it... it is- difficult to know what it shows... it is really curious. what we don't know is whether the police actually do anything. did they sing questionnaires like they did with the downing street party is? and if they sent questionnaires but was sent back to them? did people tell the truth? and other really important question. this is the tory party headquarters. what did the police... what was their reasoning about doing nothing? the position the police took with partygate was that they would take sort of quite high thresholds to when they would give out a fixed penalty notice when there was a reasonable doubt as to whether something might have been within the rules are not, so for example borisjohnson speaking, at leaving those, even though the people who went to the leaving days, some of them got fixed penalty

notices, for some reason he did not get a fixed penalty notice in those instances, and i think the way the police have expressed it as it was because we didn't want to give a fixed penalty notice on this we were assured that an offence had been committed, so that may be out, but it is very difficult to know without knowing the details of what they were told, what they investigated, how much work they put into it and all that. ., �* , , ., all that. you've been listening to our listeners _ all that. you've been listening to our listeners and _ all that. you've been listening to our listeners and viewers - all that. you've been listening to our listeners and viewers this i our listeners and viewers this morning, people feel for understandable reasons so strongly about this. a lot of people so upset about this. a lot of people so upset about this, aren't they? i’m about this. a lot of people so upset about this, aren't they?— about this, aren't they? i'm not surprised- _ about this, aren't they? i'm not surprised. like _ about this, aren't they? i'm not surprised. like you, _ about this, aren't they? i'm not surprised. like you, i— about this, aren't they? i'm not surprised. like you, i was - about this, aren't they? i'm not| surprised. like you, i was really concerned about the pandemic to keep to the letter of the law, because, as he said, i took on this role of trying to explain the rules to people and i did not want to be in a position where i was not keeping them myself, and lots of people felt like that for all sorts of reasons, and i can understand why this story

keeps coming back. but i think what this is really about is it is no longer really about which it happened, which is important, but it's about what happened after, in effect the cover—up. that is what is a classic political story. if boris johnson had stood up, and this is something i have been musing he stood up at the beginning of all of this after the first parties came to light and this after the first parties came to lightand said, this after the first parties came to light and said, look, in front of parliament said we got it wrong, we did the wrong thing, we broke the rules and i'm really sorry, would all this have happened? would this whole sort of... republish committee would not have happened because he have lied to parliament, would sue gray have happened? people may have moved on. the police, there are other government departments, it is sort of forgotten now but there were government departments where there were events like this, the

department for education had won, in they vary immediately owned up to nz we are sorry, we broke the rules, won't happen again we will look into it ourselves and nothing more happened. i don't think the police investigated that gathering, i think it was forgotten about, so i just wonder whether. .. it was forgotten about, so i 'ust wonder whether. . .i it was forgotten about, so i 'ust i wonder whether. . .i it it was forgotten about, so i 'ust - wonder whether. . .i it is wonder whether... interesting. it is the cover-up- _ wonder whether... interesting. it is the cover-up. with _ wonder whether... interesting. it is the cover-up. with the _ wonder whether... interesting. it is the cover-up. with the privilege i the cover—up. with the privilege committee, that is quite literally the cover—up because they said he lied and what was his motive for lying? i guess it must have been to avoid accountability for what happened, what he knew happen, according to the privilege committee. aha, according to the privilege committee.— according to the privilege committee. �* , , committee. a very interesting thouaht. committee. a very interesting thought- we _ committee. a very interesting thought. we will _ committee. a very interesting thought. we will never - committee. a very interesting thought. we will never know, | committee. a very interesting i thought. we will never know, the what—ifs of political history. hello, solomon. iwant what—ifs of political history. hello, solomon. i want you to respond to dunking, you are the first, one of the first people to come through to us saying what you are about to say and you're very to say. what would you like to express?

good morning. we've heard from callers this morning and i have the most sincere sympathy for people who have suffered loss, by the end of the day, these were people who had spent eight hours together in an office, who were having a glass of wine at the end of the day, and that is entirely different from relatives being understandably distraught that they weren't allowed to spend time with their loved ones who were in hospital dying with covid, confusing emotion with risk. the restrictions existed to stop the spread of covid and to allow us as a society to try and to allow us as a society to try and face it together and whilst rules were broken, and not in favour of having huge amounts of public inquiries, i would of having huge amounts of public inquiries, iwould rather they spending money on the and the police force. they have made mistakes, michael gove has owned up to it, it is reprehensible, but we are

allowing our emotion and our concern and the feeling of frustration and hurt that we all suffered through covid to colour ourjudgment on whether or not this is actually an issue, and ifeel it whether or not this is actually an issue, and i feel it is just time to move on and work together as a society, we became closer as a society, we became closer as a society through covid and it is time to galvanise that again only forward and face post covid. let to galvanise that again only forward and face post covid.— to galvanise that again only forward and face post covid. let me ask you one thing if— and face post covid. let me ask you one thing if i _ and face post covid. let me ask you one thing if i can... _ and face post covid. let me ask you one thing if i can... do _ and face post covid. let me ask you one thing if i can... do you - and face post covid. let me ask you one thing if i can... do you think- one thing if i can... do you think there is merit in the argument that earlier that day, 5pm, matt hancock, one of their bosses stood in front of all of us, look straight into the camera and said with his most serious voice and his sternest face, this is serious, and it was particularly...

this is serious, and it was particularly. . ._ this is serious, and it was particularly... this is serious, and it was articularl... �* ., , , particularly... i'm actually shocked to some degree — particularly... i'm actually shocked to some degree because _ particularly... i'm actually shocked to some degree because i'm - particularly... i'm actually shocked l to some degree because i'm actually a christian. bind to some degree because i'm actually a christian. �* �* ., , , ., a christian. and i'm not the type of erson a christian. and i'm not the type of person that — a christian. and i'm not the type of person that gets — a christian. and i'm not the type of person that gets angry. _ a christian. and i'm not the type of person that gets angry. i _ a christian. and i'm not the type of person that gets angry. i like - a christian. and i'm not the type of person that gets angry. i like to i person that gets angry. i like to think— person that gets angry. i like to think that — person that gets angry. i like to think that what happened with covid would _ think that what happened with covid would actually help people in the future, _ would actually help people in the future, to — would actually help people in the future, to help one another, the gentleman that hasjust been on now, he is right— gentleman that hasjust been on now, he is right in— gentleman that hasjust been on now, he is right in some ways that we do have _ he is right in some ways that we do have to _ he is right in some ways that we do have to move on, i think we have to do, have to move on, i think we have to do. by— have to move on, i think we have to do. by the _ have to move on, i think we have to do, by the same time, we've got to the amount— do, by the same time, we've got to the amount people are responsible for their— the amount people are responsible for their actions. you the amount people are responsible for their actions.— the amount people are responsible for their actions. you picked up the battle on and _ for their actions. you picked up the battle on and i'm _ for their actions. you picked up the battle on and i'm glad _ for their actions. you picked up the battle on and i'm glad you - for their actions. you picked up the battle on and i'm glad you did, - battle on and i'm glad you did, tells about your wife.— battle on and i'm glad you did, tells about your wife. mywife has ms, she tells about your wife. mywife has ms. she was _ tells about your wife. mywife has ms, she was rushed _ tells about your wife. mywife has ms, she was rushed into - tells about your wife. mywife has ms, she was rushed into hospitalj

ms, she was rushed into hospital with ms. — ms, she was rushed into hospital with ms, with sepsis, and she went in right— with ms, with sepsis, and she went in right at— with ms, with sepsis, and she went in right at the very beginning of 2020 _ in right at the very beginning of 2020 and — in right at the very beginning of 2020 and i spent a week with their and her_ 2020 and i spent a week with their and her mum did as well and we help toand— and her mum did as well and we help toand i'm_ and her mum did as well and we help to and i'm glad we could help because, _ to and i'm glad we could help because, don't get me wrong, the nhs did so— because, don't get me wrong, the nhs did so much, _ because, don't get me wrong, the nhs did so much, but these things we saw was unbelievable. we were there for a week— was unbelievable. we were there for a week and _ was unbelievable. we were there for a week and on the 17th of march 2020 i a week and on the 17th of march 2020 i remember— a week and on the 17th of march 2020 i remember dinners coming to me, the sister— i remember dinners coming to me, the sisterand— i remember dinners coming to me, the sisterand she— i remember dinners coming to me, the sisterand she said i remember dinners coming to me, the sister and she said unfortunately because — sister and she said unfortunately because of lockdown rules it could only be _ because of lockdown rules it could only be one person per patient and she said. _ only be one person per patient and she said, what do you want to do? i have _ she said, what do you want to do? i have a _ she said, what do you want to do? i have a disability as well, i'm in a wheelchair, _ have a disability as well, i'm in a wheelchair, so i give up my place so her mum _ wheelchair, so i give up my place so her mum could look after her so she could _ her mum could look after her so she could get— her mum could look after her so she could get better, and to actually go for that— could get better, and to actually go for that last hug and kiss, words

can't _ for that last hug and kiss, words can't describe. sorry. what it was cut yeah. — can't describe. sorry. what it was cut yeah, she was there and i had to phone _ cut yeah, she was there and i had to phone her_ cut yeah, she was there and i had to phone her because i was not allowed in and _ phone her because i was not allowed in and she _ phone her because i was not allowed in and she kept saying to me i want to come _ in and she kept saying to me i want to come home to you, i miss you, miss— to come home to you, i miss you, miss you — to come home to you, i miss you, miss you and _ to come home to you, i miss you, miss you and i kept saying to her on the phone, — miss you and i kept saying to her on the phone, your mum is looking after you, the phone, your mum is looking after you. it _ the phone, your mum is looking after you. it is _ the phone, your mum is looking after you. it is the — the phone, your mum is looking after you, it is the best thing she looks aptly— you, it is the best thing she looks aptly because you can get better soon, _ aptly because you can get better soon. and — aptly because you can get better soon, and the week after, everybody was being _ soon, and the week after, everybody was being sent home from hospitals to care _ was being sent home from hospitals to care homes and they even sent my wife to— to care homes and they even sent my wife to her_ to care homes and they even sent my wife to her mum's because i said to the staff, _ wife to her mum's because i said to the staff, sent her to her mum so that she _ the staff, sent her to her mum so that she gets better and then can come _ that she gets better and then can come to— that she gets better and then can come to me when she gets a bit more strength _ come to me when she gets a bit more strength. she was only around the corner— strength. she was only around the corner from — strength. she was only around the corner from me but i did not go round _

corner from me but i did not go round to— corner from me but i did not go round to her mum is because of the covid _ round to her mum is because of the covid rules, — round to her mum is because of the covid rules, and if! round to her mum is because of the covid rules, and if i could have done _ covid rules, and if i could have done that— covid rules, and if i could have done that would have been more than we can— done that would have been more than we can go— done that would have been more than we can gojust to show my done that would have been more than we can go just to show my face, hello, _ we can go just to show my face, hello, nicola, how are you? i was desperate — hello, nicola, how are you? i was desperate to see her and she was desperate — desperate to see her and she was desperate to see her and she was desperate to see her and she was desperate to see me but we didn't and i_ desperate to see me but we didn't and i did _ desperate to see me but we didn't and i did not see herforthe desperate to see me but we didn't and i did not see her for the last seven— and i did not see her for the last seven weeks of her life, so when i see this _ seven weeks of her life, so when i see this on — seven weeks of her life, so when i see this on television... i forgot to tell— see this on television... i forgot to tell you — see this on television... i forgot to tell you as well she died on the 5th of— to tell you as well she died on the 5th of may, aged 42, so it was a shock— 5th of may, aged 42, so it was a shock not— 5th of may, aged 42, so it was a shock notjust to 5th of may, aged 42, so it was a shock not just to me 5th of may, aged 42, so it was a shock notjust to me but 5th of may, aged 42, so it was a shock not just to me but to thousands of others and when i see these _ thousands of others and when i see these type — thousands of others and when i see these type of things, the partygate, i'm these type of things, the partygate, i'm not— these type of things, the partygate, i'm not angry but i'm demoralised as well more _ i'm not angry but i'm demoralised as well more emotionally because these people _ well more emotionally because these people didn't listen to what we were being _ people didn't listen to what we were being sold _ people didn't listen to what we were being sold and carried on partying, so i being sold and carried on partying, so i think— being sold and carried on partying, so i think we do have to move on but

obviously— so i think we do have to move on but obviously in — so i think we do have to move on but obviously in time they have to be responsible, people have been sacked for less. _ responsible, people have been sacked for less. so— responsible, people have been sacked for less, so it wasn'tjust boris johnson — for less, so it wasn'tjust boris johnson that we should be looking at it's johnson that we should be looking at its other— johnson that we should be looking at it's other people as well, and i don't _ it's other people as well, and i don't know— it's other people as well, and i don't know what you're thinking, but rishi sunak. — don't know what you're thinking, but rishi sunak, he was the vice prime minister. _ rishi sunak, he was the vice prime minister, but now he is prime minister. _ minister, but now he is prime minister, he knew what was going on. so what _ minister, he knew what was going on. so what do _ minister, he knew what was going on. so what do you think? what minister, he knew what was going on. so what do you think?— so what do you think? what do you think hearing _ so what do you think? what do you think hearing that, _ so what do you think? what do you think hearing that, duncan? - so what do you think? what do you think hearing that, duncan? like i l think hearing that, duncan? like i said, i think hearing that, duncan? like i said. i have _ think hearing that, duncan? like i said, i have huge _ think hearing that, duncan? like i said, i have huge sympathy - think hearing that, duncan? like i said, i have huge sympathy for. said, i have huge sympathy for everyone who have lost people. covid was a very difficult time for all of us and to be honest with you, probably not a single person who didn't lose somebody close to them in one way through the covid pandemic. i myself was at a funeral, we could only have 20 people, it was very tough. mat:

we could only have 20 people, it was ve touch. . we could only have 20 people, it was very tough-— very tough. mac in a nutshell, why is this different? _ very tough. mac in a nutshell, why is this different? we _ very tough. mac in a nutshell, why is this different? we are _ very tough. mac in a nutshell, why is this different? we are confusingj is this different? we are confusing emotion with _ is this different? we are confusing emotion with risk. _ is this different? we are confusing emotion with risk. an _ is this different? we are confusing emotion with risk. an articulate i is this different? we are confusing. emotion with risk. an articulate and intelliaent emotion with risk. an articulate and intelligent man, _ emotion with risk. an articulate and intelligent man, why _ emotion with risk. an articulate and intelligent man, why was _ emotion with risk. an articulate and intelligent man, why was this - emotion with risk. an articulate and intelligent man, why was this party| intelligent man, why was this party with 24 people and bashing into the puffy and the jumpers and the terrible dancing and there they are cheap byjollyjowl with each other, why is that different? cheap by jollyjowl with each other, why is that different?— why is that different? because they have been in _ why is that different? because they have been in an _ why is that different? because they have been in an office _ why is that different? because they have been in an office together - have been in an office together working for eight hours earlier. if they had any covid hollywood have been through the air—conditioning system and they would have shared, there is no additional risk in spending another half hour together having a glass of wine, in my position. people will disagree, people will have other views, for me as a voter, the rules were there to stop the spread of covid, there is no additional risk from that, that is entirely different from me going to visit a relative in hospital that has covid. let to visit a relative in hospital that has covid. . to visit a relative in hospital that has covid. , ., ,

has covid. let me bring louise in. she has been _ has covid. let me bring louise in. she has been waiting _ has covid. let me bring louise in. she has been waiting a _ has covid. let me bring louise in. she has been waiting a while. - she has been waiting a while. louise, do you buy that distinction? what do you think about what duncan said there? i what do you think about what duncan said there? . . what do you think about what duncan said there? , ., ., said there? i understand what he means, i absolutely _ said there? i understand what he means, i absolutely understand. | said there? i understand what he| means, i absolutely understand. i don't _ means, i absolutely understand. i don't agree — means, i absolutely understand. i don't agree i_ means, i absolutely understand. i don't agree. i think— means, i absolutely understand. i don't agree. i think somebody - don't agree. i think somebody working — don't agree. i think somebody working in— don't agree. i think somebody working in an— don't agree. i think somebody working in an office _ don't agree. i think somebody working in an office is- don't agree. i think somebody working in an office is more i don't agree. i think somebody . working in an office is more likely to maintain— working in an office is more likely to maintain social— working in an office is more likely to maintain social distancing, - working in an office is more likely to maintain social distancing, wel to maintain social distancing, we don't _ to maintain social distancing, we don't know— to maintain social distancing, we don't know of— to maintain social distancing, we don't know of there _ to maintain social distancing, we don't know of there is _ don't know of there is air—conditioning - don't know of there is i air—conditioning frankly, don't know of there is _ air—conditioning frankly, tucking into the — air—conditioning frankly, tucking into the same _ air—conditioning frankly, tucking into the same but _ air—conditioning frankly, tucking into the same but they - air—conditioning frankly, tucking into the same but they aren't i into the same but they aren't cheering _ into the same but they aren't cheering us _ into the same but they aren't cheering us a _ into the same but they aren't cheering us a win— into the same but they aren't cheering us a win is- into the same but they aren't cheering us a win is a - cheering us a win is a completely different— cheering us a win is a completely different kettle _ cheering us a win is a completely different kettle of— cheering us a win is a completely different kettle of fish. _ cheering us a win is a completely different kettle of fish. i- different kettle of fish. i understand _ different kettle of fish. i understand what - different kettle of fish. i understand what he - different kettle of fish. i. understand what he means different kettle of fish. i- understand what he means of confusing _ understand what he means of confusing emotion— understand what he means of confusing emotion with - understand what he means of confusing emotion with rest, i understand what he means of - confusing emotion with rest, there is a heavy— confusing emotion with rest, there is a heavy amount _ confusing emotion with rest, there is a heavy amount of— confusing emotion with rest, there is a heavy amount of emotion - is a heavy amount of emotion involved. _ is a heavy amount of emotion involved. is— is a heavy amount of emotion involved, is previous - is a heavy amount of emotion involved, is previous because| is a heavy amount of emotion i involved, is previous because of side _ involved, is previous because of side the — involved, is previous because of side the human— involved, is previous because of side the human element- involved, is previous because of side the human element of- involved, is previous because of side the human element of it, l side the human element of it, regardless _ side the human element of it, regardless of _ side the human element of it, regardless of the _ side the human element of it, regardless of the politics, - side the human element of it, regardless of the politics, it i side the human element of it, i regardless of the politics, it the human— regardless of the politics, it the human element— regardless of the politics, it the human element and _ regardless of the politics, it the human element and a _ regardless of the politics, it the human element and a line - regardless of the politics, it the human element and a line thatl regardless of the politics, it the i human element and a line that is regardless of the politics, it the - human element and a line that is the biggest _ human element and a line that is the biggest problem _ human element and a line that is the biggest problem of— human element and a line that is the biggest problem of it— human element and a line that is the biggest problem of it all. _ human element and a line that is the biggest problem of it all. —— - human element and a line that is the biggest problem of it all. —— andy. biggest problem of it all. —— andy tying _ biggest problem of it all. —— andy tying that— biggest problem of it all. —— andy tying that is — biggest problem of it all. —— andy tying that is the _ biggest problem of it all. —— andy lying that is the biggest _ biggest problem of it all. —— andy lying that is the biggest probleml biggest problem of it all. —— andy. lying that is the biggest problem of it alt _ lying that is the biggest problem of it alt they— lying that is the biggest problem of it all. they trying _ lying that is the biggest problem of it all. they trying to _ lying that is the biggest problem of it all. they trying to cover- lying that is the biggest problem of it all. they trying to cover it - lying that is the biggest problem of it all. they trying to cover it up. - it all. they trying to cover it up.

what _ it all. they trying to cover it up. what was — it all. they trying to cover it up. what was your _ it all. they trying to cover it up. what was your own _ it all. they trying to cover it up. what was your own situation . it all. they trying to cover it up. what was your own situation ini it all. they trying to cover it up. - what was your own situation in that period, december 2142020, what were you about in your life and work with mac i you about in your life and work with ma. ., , . ., , you about in your life and work with ma. ., , , ., ., , mac i was coming up to nine months reanant, mac i was coming up to nine months pregnant. due _ mac i was coming up to nine months pregnant. due in _ mac i was coming up to nine months pregnant, due in early _ mac i was coming up to nine months pregnant, due in early january, - mac i was coming up to nine months pregnant, due in early january, i- pregnant, due in earlyjanuary, i found— pregnant, due in earlyjanuary, i found out— pregnant, due in earlyjanuary, i found out i— pregnant, due in earlyjanuary, i found out i was— pregnant, due in earlyjanuary, i found out i was pregnant - pregnant, due in earlyjanuary, i found out i was pregnant on - pregnant, due in earlyjanuary, i found out i was pregnant on ve i pregnant, due in earlyjanuary, i. found out i was pregnant on ve day 2020 _ found out i was pregnant on ve day 2020 and _ found out i was pregnant on ve day 2020 and i— found out i was pregnant on ve day 2020 and i had _ found out i was pregnant on ve day 2020 and i had not _ found out i was pregnant on ve day 2020 and i had not seen _ found out i was pregnant on ve day 2020 and i had not seen my- found out i was pregnant on ve day| 2020 and i had not seen my family, found out i was pregnant on ve day. 2020 and i had not seen my family, i had been _ 2020 and i had not seen my family, i had been very— 2020 and i had not seen my family, i had been very isolated, _ 2020 and i had not seen my family, i had been very isolated, i— 2020 and i had not seen my family, i had been very isolated, i had - 2020 and i had not seen my family, i had been very isolated, i had to- 2020 and i had not seen my family, i had been very isolated, i had to go. had been very isolated, i had to go through— had been very isolated, i had to go through scans _ had been very isolated, i had to go through scans alone, _ had been very isolated, i had to go through scans alone, at _ had been very isolated, i had to go through scans alone, at i'm - had been very isolated, i had to go through scans alone, at i'm in - through scans alone, at i'm in cumbria and i'm _ through scans alone, at i'm in cumbria and i'm from - through scans alone, at i'm in cumbria and i'm from the - through scans alone, at i'm in - cumbria and i'm from the north—east originally. _ cumbria and i'm from the north—east originally. my— cumbria and i'm from the north—east originally, my family _ cumbria and i'm from the north—east originally, my family is _ cumbria and i'm from the north—east originally, my family is in _ originally, my family is in birmingham, _ originally, my family is in birmingham, whereon. originally, my family is in birmingham, whereon or| originally, my family is in . birmingham, whereon or not originally, my family is in - birmingham, whereon or not peer, there _ birmingham, whereon or not peer, there were — birmingham, whereon or not peer, there were periods _ birmingham, whereon or not peer, there were periods of _ birmingham, whereon or not peer, there were periods of quite - there were periods of quite titeratty— there were periods of quite literally weeks— there were periods of quite literally weeks where - there were periods of quite literally weeks where the i there were periods of quite i literally weeks where the only person — literally weeks where the only person i— literally weeks where the only person i saw _ literally weeks where the only person i saw in— literally weeks where the only person i saw in person - literally weeks where the only person i saw in person was i literally weeks where the only| person i saw in person was my husband — person i saw in person was my husband so— person i saw in person was my husband so as— person i saw in person was my husband. so as we _ person i saw in person was my husband. so as we were - person i saw in person was my. husband. so as we were coming person i saw in person was my- husband. so as we were coming up to christmas. _ husband. so as we were coming up to christmas. my— husband. so as we were coming up to christmas, my parents _ husband. so as we were coming up to christmas, my parents were - husband. so as we were coming up to christmas, my parents were very-

christmas, my parents were very excited _ christmas, my parents were very excited and — christmas, my parents were very excited and the _ christmas, my parents were very excited and the announcement i christmas, my parents were very- excited and the announcement there is to be _ excited and the announcement there is to be limited — excited and the announcement there is to be limited travel— excited and the announcement there is to be limited travel to _ excited and the announcement there is to be limited travel to men - is to be limited travel to men depending _ is to be limited travel to men depending on— is to be limited travel to men depending on which - is to be limited travel to men depending on which tier- is to be limited travel to men depending on which tier you. is to be limited travel to men - depending on which tier you were in so that's— depending on which tier you were in so that's where _ depending on which tier you were in so that's where we _ depending on which tier you were in so that's where we were. _ depending on which tier you were in i so that's where we were. player— mack paul in— so that's where we were. player— mack paul in birmingham. _ so that's where we were. player-mack paul in birmingham.— paul in birmingham. you've heard some interesting _ paul in birmingham. you've heard some interesting arguments - paul in birmingham. you've heard| some interesting arguments here. it's about risk and emotion, what do you think? i it's about risk and emotion, what do ou think? , ,., ., , ~ it's about risk and emotion, what do ou think? , ., , ,, �*, you think? i personally think it's an absolute _ you think? i personally think it's an absolute joke, _ you think? i personally think it's an absolute joke, the _ you think? i personally think it's an absolute joke, the whole - an absolute joke, the whole situation. in that video where they are singing and dancing and jumping all over each other, when we are told not to be doing that because everything is so dangerous, if they are making the rules, why are they breaking the rules? fight! are making the rules, why are they breaking the rules?— are making the rules, why are they breaking the rules? and how are you affected at that _ breaking the rules? and how are you affected at that time? _ breaking the rules? and how are you affected at that time? i _ breaking the rules? and how are you affected at that time? i was - affected at that time? i was affected at that time? i was affected because _ affected at that time? i was affected because i - affected at that time? i was affected because i run - affected at that time? i was affected because i run a - affected at that time? i was l

affected because i run a small affected at that time? i was - affected because i run a small cafe, loughton came around and i wasn't geared up for doing take a deliveries so i was forced to the point where i was close, i could have stayed open and went down that route but i was paying myself through the pay by ae schemes were entitled to pearl or, if i was working i wasn't, so it worked out in my favour to stay closed. i had to absorb £700 a month on personal debt, personalsavings, to absorb £700 a month on personal debt, personal savings, the government were giving me a grant of £1300 per month to keep the business afloat, my rent is £1500, as i was losing £200 there, as well as all my other bills as i had to keep on paying, i was forced to a point where i had to take on personal debt of £30,000 through a bounce back loan, however i call it debt. and

their party in downing street... it makes me absolutely mad. i get a lot of customers coming into my shop that own their own businesses that were entitled to absolutely nothing, and ijust think it's an absolute joke and typical tory. let and i just think it's an absolute joke and typical tory.— and i just think it's an absolute joke and typical tory. let me bring adam back — joke and typical tory. let me bring adam back in _ joke and typical tory. let me bring adam back in listening _ joke and typical tory. let me bring adam back in listening to - joke and typical tory. let me bring adam back in listening to this, - joke and typical tory. let me bring adam back in listening to this, the j adam back in listening to this, the barrister at doughty street chambers who knows every dot and every i have every cross of every tea of all the rules. the law has to be applied sensibly, not necessarily by the letter, but sensibly, different applications in different situations given different mitigations. so when you hear, and we rate a lot, a significant amount when we have this discussion, duncan saying people are confusing grief with rest, there was no particular risk on that occasion,

what do you think? that no particular risk on that occasion, what do you think?— what do you think? that is a legitimate — what do you think? that is a legitimate argument - what do you think? that is a legitimate argument to - what do you think? that is a | legitimate argument to have what do you think? that is a l legitimate argument to have a what do you think? that is a - legitimate argument to have a bit what the rules should be but the real stephanie did not allow for people to stay after working up a christmas party and invite there was government guidance which i found when the party gets tough was coming out, which said you must not have a christmas party, that was absolutely the worst part of the pandemic, december 2020, and i think 60,000 people died in three months from november to the end ofjanuary because it was the alpha variant, it was absolutely rife, and the government, the question about whether christmas parties would be allowed at all, christmas gatherings, was that period, and what they will say, you can have any gathering that is reasonably necessary for work, but clearly you can a sort social gathering like

this and am not sure, also, on the science, whether it's right that just because people are working all day they can then have this sort of closeness to everybody in one room sharing food and dancing together, getting drunk as well. if you had asked a government minister at the time, if you government minister or chris whitty or anybody... government minister or chris whitty oranybody... if government minister or chris whitty or anybody... if you are going to have to work together... i don't know whether these people were working together in the same space. i have not read that anyway. if you are going to work together, worked within a few metres of each other, spread out, have screens between you, try and work in different rooms, all of that, so i don't think, i can understand being sensible for sure but i don't think that reflects what the rules were at the time. ~ .,. ., ,

that reflects what the rules were at the time. ~ ., , ., ~ , ., the time. were factory workers not told they had _ the time. were factory workers not told they had to _ the time. were factory workers not told they had to stay _ the time. were factory workers not told they had to stay six _ the time. were factory workers not told they had to stay six feet - the time. were factory workers not told they had to stay six feet apart | told they had to stay six feet apart and i_ told they had to stay six feet apart and i did _ told they had to stay six feet apart and i did see reports where managers were having _ and i did see reports where managers were having to discipline factory workers — were having to discipline factory workers that flaunted those rules? yes, everybody was doing their best, supposes the point.— yes, everybody was doing their best, supposes the point. everybody except 10 downin: supposes the point. everybody except 10 downing street _ supposes the point. everybody except 10 downing street isms. _ supposes the point. everybody except 10 downing street isms. for - supposes the point. everybody except 10 downing street isms. for some - 10 downing street isms. for some --eole it 10 downing street isms. for some people it was _ 10 downing street isms. for some people it was not _ 10 downing street isms. for some people it was not possible. - 10 downing street isms. for some people it was not possible. at - people it was not possible. at beginning of the pandemic all the people that died where bus drivers, ambulance drivers, i acted for the family of an ambulance driver that died because they were unable to socially distance, they knew about the risk but because of the nature of their jobs the risk but because of the nature of theirjobs theyjust the risk but because of the nature of their jobs they just weren't able to stay out of the sort of enclosed environments, and that is why they disproportionately died, so, yes, being sensible, but there was a reason why those rules were put in place and i think they were pretty sensible. flan place and i think they were pretty sensible. ., , _, place and i think they were pretty

sensible. ., , .., sensible. can i 'ust come in there? ve sensible. can i 'ust come in there? very quick. — sensible. can ijust come in there? very quick. just — sensible. can ijust come in there? very quick, just talking _ sensible. can ijust come in there? very quick, just talking about - sensible. can ijust come in there? very quick, just talking about the . very quick, just talking about the gatherings. — very quick, just talking about the gatherings, when— very quick, just talking about the gatherings, when we _ very quick, just talking about the gatherings, when we had - very quick, just talking about the gatherings, when we had the - very quick, just talking about the . gatherings, when we had the funeral for my— gatherings, when we had the funeral for my wife. — gatherings, when we had the funeral for my wife. we _ gatherings, when we had the funeral for my wife, we were _ gatherings, when we had the funeral for my wife, we were told _ gatherings, when we had the funeral for my wife, we were told you - gatherings, when we had the funeral for my wife, we were told you can't i for my wife, we were told you can't have _ for my wife, we were told you can't have a _ for my wife, we were told you can't have a proper— for my wife, we were told you can't have a proper church _ for my wife, we were told you can't have a proper church funeral, - for my wife, we were told you can't have a proper church funeral, so i for my wife, we were told you can'tl have a proper church funeral, so we had to— have a proper church funeral, so we had to sit— have a proper church funeral, so we had to sit outside _ have a proper church funeral, so we had to sit outside beside _ have a proper church funeral, so we had to sit outside beside the - have a proper church funeral, so we had to sit outside beside the grave, j had to sit outside beside the grave, which _ had to sit outside beside the grave, which was _ had to sit outside beside the grave, which was nice _ had to sit outside beside the grave, which was nice for— had to sit outside beside the grave, which was nice for what _ had to sit outside beside the grave, which was nice for what we - had to sit outside beside the grave, which was nice for what we could i had to sit outside beside the grave, . which was nice for what we could do, but we _ which was nice for what we could do, but we couldn't— which was nice for what we could do, but we couldn't even _ which was nice for what we could do, but we couldn't even have _ which was nice for what we could do, but we couldn't even have a - but we couldn't even have a gathering. _ but we couldn't even have a gathering. we _ but we couldn't even have a gathering, we couldn't- but we couldn't even have a gathering, we couldn't even but we couldn't even have a - gathering, we couldn't even get together— gathering, we couldn't even get together and _ gathering, we couldn't even get together and have _ gathering, we couldn't even get together and have a _ gathering, we couldn't even get together and have a say - gathering, we couldn't even get together and have a say about i gathering, we couldn't even get i together and have a say about her stop that — together and have a say about her stop that is — together and have a say about her stop that is what _ together and have a say about her stop that is what for _ together and have a say about her stop that is what for me, - together and have a say about her stop that is what for me, many. stop that is what for me, many thousands— stop that is what for me, many thousands of— stop that is what for me, many thousands of others, _ stop that is what for me, many thousands of others, where - stop that is what for me, many. thousands of others, where they suffered — thousands of others, where they suffered it _ thousands of others, where they suffered. it is _ thousands of others, where they suffered. it is not _ thousands of others, where they suffered. it is notjust— thousands of others, where they suffered. it is notjust about - thousands of others, where they suffered. it is notjust about the| suffered. it is notjust about the gathering — suffered. it is notjust about the gathering of _ suffered. it is notjust about the gathering of businesses, - suffered. it is notjust about the gathering of businesses, it's- suffered. it is notjust about thej gathering of businesses, it's the gathering — gathering of businesses, it's the gathering at _ gathering of businesses, it's the gathering at funerals _ gathering of businesses, it's the gathering at funerals that - gathering of businesses, it's the gathering at funerals that you i gathering of businesses, it's the . gathering at funerals that you could not have _ gathering at funerals that you could not have. ., , ,., ~' , , not have. you spoke very well this mornini , not have. you spoke very well this morning. thank— not have. you spoke very well this morning, thank you _ not have. you spoke very well this morning, thank you very _ not have. you spoke very well this morning, thank you very much - not have. you spoke very well this| morning, thank you very much and not have. you spoke very well this i morning, thank you very much and i genuinely hope we talk again. it has been very important to have you on. likewise, so many powerful contributions, telling contributions, telling contributions, significant and important contributions this morning. keep those coming.

should the government help people with mortgages? rishi sunak said it is not going to happen, it will fuel inflation. a typical two—year fixed mortgage deal went above 6% for the first time since december. the days of wine and roses are over. on thursday, it's expected the bank of england will raise rates again from their current rate of 4.5%. they're trying to get inflation under control. 800,000 people have a fixed rate coming to an end this year. are you one of them? that is a lot of sleepless nights.

the treasury's understood to have ruled out any help for people with mortgages — if you're a homeowner, what's the situation for you at the moment? are you struggling with an increase in payments? call 08085 909 693. text 85058. a tome of text coming in after the last hour. right now, here is the news from bethan holmes. mps will debate the parliamentary report that found boris johnson misled the commons about downing street parties during lockdown. the former prime minister resigned as an mp after receiving the details. it's unclear whether there will be

a vote on the report following the debate this afternoon. sir keir starmer will be speaking shortly in edinburgh — as labour say it will end new north sea oil and gas exploration — if it wins the next general election. he'll pledge to help affected communities to profit from clean energy projects instead. david warburton has officially resigned as the mp for somerton and frome. he was suspended from the tory party over allegations of sexual misconduct. he denied claims of harassment. his immediate departure means the conservatives will now face a fourth by—election. a typical 2—yearfixed mortgage deal has reached an interest rate of more than 6 percent — for the first time since december. the prime minister — rishi sunak — says there won't be any help given to people who are struggling.

should the government help with mortgages? i want to hear your answer and your thoughts. keir starmer�*s making a speech about labour's energy policy — that's coming up live shortly on bbc news, bbc 2 and the iplayer. we'll keep you up to date with what he says on 5 live and bbc sounds. that is coming up in 15 minutes. let's go with mortgages, leila, a mortgage broker, good morning. goad mortgage broker, good morning. good mornini. mortgage broker, good morning. good morning- my — mortgage broker, good morning. (lime morning. my daughter has the same name as you. head of economics at

new economics foundation and former treasury official. this new economics foundation and former treasury official.— treasury official. this is very difficult for _ treasury official. this is very difficult for the _ treasury official. this is very difficult for the government, treasury official. this is very - difficult for the government, people see what they see when they get their mortgage statement. i know the bank of england has ultimate responsibility for this, but it is a political hot potato is putting it mildly. brute political hot potato is putting it mildl . ~ political hot potato is putting it mildl . . ., political hot potato is putting it mildl . ~ ., ., ., political hot potato is putting it mildl. ., ., ., ., ., mildly. we look at average mortgage -a ments, mildly. we look at average mortgage payments. going _ mildly. we look at average mortgage payments. going up _ mildly. we look at average mortgage payments. going up by _ mildly. we look at average mortgage payments, going up by £2900, - mildly. we look at average mortgage . payments, going up by £2900, people are going _ payments, going up by £2900, people are going to struggle to pay their bills map. — are going to struggle to pay their bills map, families are going to lose their— bills map, families are going to lose their homes. it is short and long-term — lose their homes. it is short and long—term incompetence to lead us to this moment. in short term, the after—effects of the liz truss budget — after—effects of the liz truss budget last year, the premium on our interest— budget last year, the premium on our interest rates, in the long term with— interest rates, in the long term with the — interest rates, in the long term with the highest inflation in g7, the highest energy bill, we did not invest— the highest energy bill, we did not invest in— the highest energy bill, we did not invest in insulation and renewables over the _ invest in insulation and renewables over the past decade, the bank is raising _ over the past decade, the bank is raising interest rates, we are all paying _ raising interest rates, we are all paying the — raising interest rates, we are all paying the price for that. an

incompetent government led us to this moment. they need to think about— this moment. they need to think about how— this moment. they need to think about how they are going to help mortgage holders in the short term, work with— mortgage holders in the short term, work with private banks in the bank of england — work with private banks in the bank of england to see what they can do to close _ of england to see what they can do to close the spread between the bank of england _ to close the spread between the bank of england base rate and final interest— of england base rate and final interest rates, in the longer term, investor— interest rates, in the longer term, investor we — interest rates, in the longer term, investor we do not end up in these situations— investor we do not end up in these situations again.— situations again. what effect did the liz situations again. what effect did the liz truss _ situations again. what effect did the liz truss period _ situations again. what effect did the liz truss period have - situations again. what effect did the liz truss period have two i situations again. what effect did the liz truss period have two it. situations again. what effect did i the liz truss period have two it led to an extra — the liz truss period have two it led to an extra interest _ the liz truss period have two it led to an extra interest rate _ the liz truss period have two it led to an extra interest rate premium on what we _ to an extra interest rate premium on what we are — to an extra interest rate premium on what we are selling abroad which has an impact— what we are selling abroad which has an impact on the mortgage market. if you took— an impact on the mortgage market. if you took at— an impact on the mortgage market. if you look at our interest rates compared _ you look at our interest rates compared to germany, we are 2% higher— compared to germany, we are 2% higher than— compared to germany, we are 2% higher than germany, so .5 percentage point before the liz truss— percentage point before the liz truss budget. we have seen since then. _ truss budget. we have seen since then. hit— truss budget. we have seen since then, hit back now with inflation, but it— then, hit back now with inflation, but it has— then, hit back now with inflation, but it has stayed with us throughout that entire _ but it has stayed with us throughout

that entire period.— that entire period. kwasi kwarteng not sacked that entire period. kwasi kwarteng got sacked for _ that entire period. kwasi kwarteng got sacked for doing _ that entire period. kwasi kwarteng got sacked for doing as _ that entire period. kwasi kwarteng got sacked for doing as he - that entire period. kwasi kwarteng got sacked for doing as he was - that entire period. kwasi kwarteng. got sacked for doing as he was told. do you think there should be an intervention? a furlough type intervention? a furlough type intervention? for people who have mortgages. is itjustifiable? mortgages. is it justifiable? something mortgages. is itjustifiable? something should be done. you may remember when covid—19 hit and people were out ofjobs and sent home, then the government intervened and basically they made it available for people that they could switch to interest only for a period of time. i'm not saying we are at that point yet, but something similar may become necessary if things continue to go as they are. become necessary if things continue to go as they are-— to go as they are. please get in touch, to go as they are. please get in touch. call— to go as they are. please get in touch, call 08085 _ to go as they are. please get in touch, call 08085 909 - to go as they are. please get in touch, call 08085 909 693, - to go as they are. please get in. touch, call 08085 909 693, text 85058. how is it for you at the moment? what are your feelings about how bad it could get? leila, you say

there, this is the direction of travel towards a point where they will have to do something. that's pretty scary. for will have to do something. that's pretty scary-— pretty scary. for a lot of people, it is scary- _ pretty scary. for a lot of people, it is scary- at — pretty scary. for a lot of people, it is scary. at the _ pretty scary. for a lot of people, it is scary. at the same - pretty scary. for a lot of people, it is scary. at the same time, i pretty scary. for a lot of people, | it is scary. at the same time, you may recall before the financial crash in 2007, 6% interest rates were the norm. it was not as unusual as it has been in recent years. but at the same time, because it is coming suddenly so to speak, it is a shock for a lot of people and they do not know how to handle it. let’s do not know how to handle it. let's no to our do not know how to handle it. let's go to our callers, _ do not know how to handle it. let's go to our callers, what _ do not know how to handle it. let's go to our callers, what is _ do not know how to handle it. let's go to our callers, what is the view from edinburgh a few i go to our callers, what is the view from edinburgh a fev— go to our callers, what is the view from edinburgh a few i can give you m views. from edinburgh a few i can give you my views- i— from edinburgh a few i can give you my views. i think _ from edinburgh a few i can give you my views. i think the _ from edinburgh a few i can give you my views. i think the government l my views. i think the government should _ my views. i think the government should step in to help. i have seen my... _ should step into help. i have seen my... i_ should step in to help. i have seen my... iwent— should step in to help. i have seen my... i went to an interest only mortgage — my... i went to an interest only mortgage to try and deal with this.

i am mortgage to try and deal with this. i am over— mortgage to try and deal with this. i am over £300 extra a month so far, i am over £300 extra a month so far, i have _ i am over £300 extra a month so far, i have used _ i am over £300 extra a month so far, i have used my savings to pay for my mortgage. _ i have used my savings to pay for my mortgage. i— i have used my savings to pay for my mortgage, i have used the government help with _ mortgage, i have used the government help with energy to pay for my mortgage, i have not had any heating on since _ mortgage, i have not had any heating on since last— mortgage, i have not had any heating on since last march, to pay for my mortgage. — on since last march, to pay for my mortgage, the thing is, i on since last march, to pay for my mortgage, the thing is, lam in a professionaljob, i do not have a car. _ professionaljob, i do not have a car. i_ professionaljob, i do not have a car. i have — professionaljob, i do not have a car, i have cut other expenses, if i am in _ car, i have cut other expenses, if i am in that— car, i have cut other expenses, if i am in that position, i hate to think what _ am in that position, i hate to think what other— am in that position, i hate to think what other people are in, and it is rcatty— what other people are in, and it is really scary — what other people are in, and it is really scary to know where this is going _ really scary to know where this is going to — really scary to know where this is going to go. i'm not on universal credit— going to go. i'm not on universal credit or— going to go. i'm not on universal credit or anything, i do not qualify for any— credit or anything, i do not qualify for any help with anything. the government keep saying you can get help with _ government keep saying you can get help with the cost of living, no, you can't. — help with the cost of living, no, you can't. if— help with the cost of living, no, you can't. if you are in a certain

income — you can't. if you are in a certain income bracket, and the other thing is a lot— income bracket, and the other thing is a lot of— income bracket, and the other thing is a lot of mortgage or nurse rent their— is a lot of mortgage or nurse rent their flat — is a lot of mortgage or nurse rent their flat to — is a lot of mortgage or nurse rent their flat to pay their mortgage, they are — their flat to pay their mortgage, they are increasing the reins, i have _ they are increasing the reins, i have a — they are increasing the reins, i have a number of students and my family— have a number of students and my family who — have a number of students and my family who cannot afford the accommodation because the rents are so high _ accommodation because the rents are so high and _ accommodation because the rents are so high and students are dropping out of— so high and students are dropping out of university because they cannot — out of university because they cannot afford to pay the rent. mortgage owners are putting up rents because _ mortgage owners are putting up rents because they can't afford their mortgage. because they can't afford their mortgage-— because they can't afford their mortgage. because they can't afford their mortmae. , , ., ., mortgage. edinburgh is one of the most expensive _ mortgage. edinburgh is one of the most expensive places _ mortgage. edinburgh is one of the most expensive places in - mortgage. edinburgh is one of the most expensive places in britain i mortgage. edinburgh is one of the | most expensive places in britain to buy. it most expensive places in britain to bu . . most expensive places in britain to bu. ., ., most expensive places in britain to buy. it is astronomical. i hear the government _ buy. it is astronomical. i hear the government say _ buy. it is astronomical. i hear the government say they _ buy. it is astronomical. i hear the government say they were - buy. it is astronomical. i hear the| government say they were getting help because that will —— that they are not— help because that will —— that they are not giving help because it will put up _ are not giving help because it will put up inflation rates. i know there is a debate. — put up inflation rates. i know there is a debate, i am not an economist, there _ is a debate, i am not an economist, there a _ is a debate, i am not an economist, there a deep— is a debate, i am not an economist, there a deep —— debate among economists whether constantly putting — economists whether constantly putting up interest rates is the only— putting up interest rates is the only way—

putting up interest rates is the only way to reduce inflation. that is not _ only way to reduce inflation. that is not clear—cut. the last interest rate that — is not clear—cut. the last interest rate that went up, there was a debate — rate that went up, there was a debate about whether that move was actually _ debate about whether that move was actually the right thing to do. 0r actually the right thing to do. or not. to — actually the right thing to do. or not. to constantly say we will keep putting _ not. to constantly say we will keep putting interest rates up no matter what to _ putting interest rates up no matter what to drive down inflation, well, will it _ what to drive down inflation, well, will it drive — what to drive down inflation, well, will it drive down inflation two and also what — will it drive down inflation two and also what is the consequence to so many— also what is the consequence to so many people, not those who have a mortgage. — many people, not those who have a mortgage, but those who are renting as a result. _ mortgage, but those who are renting as a result. ., .., as a result. that debate will come to the fore. _ as a result. that debate will come to the fore, the _ as a result. that debate will come to the fore, the nuance _ as a result. that debate will come to the fore, the nuance of - as a result. that debate will come to the fore, the nuance of that - to the fore, the nuance of that particular, you are not an economist, i am particular, you are not an economist, iam not particular, you are not an economist, i am not an economist, but there are people who understand and there are others who say they understand and agree with the others to understand. helen, i will be back with you, some more voices. helen, good morning. yearfixed rate at the

moment? tote good morning. year fixed rate at the moment? ~ ., ., ., moment? we went into a fixed rate mortnae moment? we went into a fixed rate mortgage one _ moment? we went into a fixed rate mortgage one and _ moment? we went into a fixed rate mortgage one and a _ moment? we went into a fixed rate mortgage one and a half— moment? we went into a fixed rate mortgage one and a half years - moment? we went into a fixed rate mortgage one and a half years ago, and the mortgage payments where more than affordable, you assess the income, i am lucky i have a reasonable income and it —— i am a lawyer and i have a decentjob and that was affordable, but santander quickly said no. that is their current provider. we had to go and look for other mortgage providers and we have been using a broker, but if we were to go on to a fixed at the current 6%, the payments we would be looking at £3100 a month and at the moment they are 1600. it has gone up 100%. santander refused to allow us to put any more into an interest—free bracket, they have very strict rules about that. some of my costs are fixed, i work, i

have child care, though they are fixed cost. you cannot get away from paying council tax, energy all those things, it is becoming, it is going to take up about two thirds of what i earn only on the mortgage, it is not sustainable. flan i earn only on the mortgage, it is not sustainable.— i earn only on the mortgage, it is not sustainable. can i ask what your monthly rate _ not sustainable. can i ask what your monthly rate would _ not sustainable. can i ask what your monthly rate would be? _ not sustainable. can i ask what your monthly rate would be? they - not sustainable. can i ask what your monthly rate would be? they are i monthly rate would be? they are seeinu monthly rate would be? they are seeing 3100. _ monthly rate would be? they are seeing 3100, 3000 _ monthly rate would be? they are seeing 3100, 3000 £200 - monthly rate would be? they are seeing 3100, 3000 £200 a - monthly rate would be? they are i seeing 3100, 3000 £200 a month. monthly rate would be? they are - seeing 3100, 3000 £200 a month. that is pretty much double what we are paying just now. is pretty much double what we are paying just now-— is pretty much double what we are paying just now. mature! the other paying 'ust now. wow! the other thin . paying 'ust now. wow! the other thin i paying just now. wow! the other thing i have _ paying just now. wow! the other thing i have noticed _ paying just now. wow! the other thing i have noticed in _ paying just now. wow! the other thing i have noticed in terms of the application process, they are asking so many questions, they wanted copies of various confidential documents, my divorce agreement confirming how much maintenance is paid by my ex—husband, they want confirmation from my mother that she contributes toward school fees and childcare, they wanted lots of information, not only the

straightforward questionnaire and bank thing. i think the banks are reluctant to lend. they are in a state where they are worried about lending because they know people cannot afford this. they know that people cannot afford their mortgage payments to double. my pay rise this year was 3%. it has not gone up. not enough to cover that level of payment. ijust don't understand what they think people can do. when what they think people can do. when we are discussing _ what they think people can do. when we are discussing this, _ what they think people can do. when we are discussing this, people like yourself, lawyers, people with decent incomes, coming in and saying, they are edging towards a desperate situation. richard in cambridge, what about you? these are people who never thought they would be in the situation. goad people who never thought they would be in the situation.— be in the situation. good morning. i am middle — be in the situation. good morning. i am middle income, _ be in the situation. good morning. i am middle income, i _ be in the situation. good morning. i am middle income, i have - be in the situation. good morning. i am middle income, i have a - be in the situation. good morning. i. am middle income, i have a mortgage interest— am middle income, i have a mortgage

interest solely mortgage which has 'ust interest solely mortgage which has i'ust gone _ interest solely mortgage which has just gone up at the end of may by £500 _ just gone up at the end of may by £500 a _ just gone up at the end of may by £500 a month. and that is crippling. and the _ £500 a month. and that is crippling. and the bank of england and the government must be crazy to keep putting _ government must be crazy to keep putting interest rates up. we have -ot putting interest rates up. we have got the _ putting interest rates up. we have got the message that we should not be spending right, left and centre. we are _ be spending right, left and centre. we are already making economies. we do not _ we are already making economies. we do not need _ we are already making economies. we do not need to be punished still further— do not need to be punished still further by— do not need to be punished still further by the governor of the bank of england. i have a house in york that i_ of england. i have a house in york that i inherited when my mother died. _ that i inherited when my mother died. it— that i inherited when my mother died. it is— that i inherited when my mother died, it is not profitable. in april next _ died, it is not profitable. in april next year— died, it is not profitable. in april next year the fixed rate interest only mortgage on that will expire and it— only mortgage on that will expire and it will— only mortgage on that will expire and it will start losing money, so i am forced — and it will start losing money, so i am forced to sail. another less rentai— am forced to sail. another less rental property available for people who want _ rental property available for people who want to rent. it is crazy. wow! leila, who want to rent. it is crazy. wow! leila. are — who want to rent. it is crazy. wow! leila. are you _ who want to rent. it is crazy. wow! leila, are you still— who want to rent. it is crazy. wow! leila, are you still with _ who want to rent. it is crazy. wow! leila, are you still with us? - who want to rent. it is crazy. wow! leila, are you still with us? these| leila, are you still with us? these slices of life are so revealing,

aren't they? helen is a lawyer, it has gone up to £3000 a month, it has doubled. it is whacking people at every level of society. what about the argument, is this the best way to dampen inflation? to raise interest rates? because that is the line that so many economist are sticking to. the cabinet secretary michael gove said the whole situation is kept under review, when politicians say that, handing out help would be inflationary. would it? ~ ., help would be inflationary. would it? . ., ., help would be inflationary. would it? ~ ., ., it? without going the political route, it? without going the political route. we _ it? without going the political route, we can _ it? without going the political route, we can agree, - it? without going the political route, we can agree, a - it? without going the political route, we can agree, a lot - it? without going the political route, we can agree, a lot of| it? without going the political- route, we can agree, a lot of money has been spent during covid—19 the we don't know where it went, and a

lot of money which has can trip —— that contributed to inflation, we are in a situation that had a lot of causes, and they are trying to find a solution for it but in the meantime, people have to deal with the problem that they have at hand, the problem that they have at hand, the more pressing issues, which is their mortgage and their bill. i am not in a position to offer a solution to the general economic problem, but regarding mortgages, what he said being on an interest only, and providing additional documents to prove income such as maintenance income, this will be come the necessary norm. you want to pull out all the stops to get a

better deal, to get into a better position. it is also quite difficult sometimes to extend the mortgage term because most lenders have a view that you can only have a mortgage until you are 70 and going beyond that has various terms and conditions. 0bviously, extending your term reduces your monthly mortgage payment but is that sustainable long term? that means you are paying interest for longer. the solution is not a simple answer. it is not black and white. i did the solution is not a simple answer. it is not black and white.— it is not black and white. i did not think it would _ it is not black and white. i did not think it would be. _ it is not black and white. i did not think it would be. we _ it is not black and white. i did not think it would be. we are going i it is not black and white. i did not| think it would be. we are going to gyms in a second and richard in cambridge likewise. i got a little hint, a little saint, and aroma of your politics and your first answer. you are not a massive fan of the government, but what about this argument that you dampen inflation by raising interest rates, that is

orthodoxy but do you buy it? if you dam en orthodoxy but do you buy it? if you dampen in — orthodoxy but do you buy it? if you dampen in dress _ orthodoxy but do you buy it? if you dampen in dress rates _ orthodoxy but do you buy it? if you dampen in dress rates when - orthodoxy but do you buy it? if you dampen in dress rates when inflation is caused _ dampen in dress rates when inflation is caused by— dampen in dress rates when inflation is caused by excess demand, if at had been — is caused by excess demand, if at had been caused by money being too cheap— had been caused by money being too cheap and _ had been caused by money being too cheap and too many workers chasing hi-h cheap and too many workers chasing high wage _ cheap and too many workers chasing high wage rises that would be the film high wage rises that would be the right response but this inflation is different. — right response but this inflation is different. this inflation is cost pushed — different. this inflation is cost pushed because we had on the one hand global shocks have interacted with underinvestment over the past decade. _ with underinvestment over the past decade. you had the invasion by president — decade. you had the invasion by president putin, supply chain prop problems. — president putin, supply chain prop problems, not enough renewables and badly insulated homes, high energy costs leading to inflation. raising or lowering in place rates will not reflect _ or lowering in place rates will not reflect for— or lowering in place rates will not reflect for the prices are higher, will harm — reflect for the prices are higher, will harm households. you are buying that energy. — will harm households. you are buying that energy. the bank should be raising _ that energy. the bank should be raising rates, the orthodox would say hold _ raising rates, the orthodox would say hold on. if you look at what

people — say hold on. if you look at what people think about inflation, people do not _ people think about inflation, people do not think inflation is going to stay elevated for ever and this wage price spiral. — stay elevated for ever and this wage price spiral, inflation expectation in the _ price spiral, inflation expectation in the longer term have not moved. people _ in the longer term have not moved. people understand this is the short—term shock. people talk a lot in the _ short—term shock. people talk a lot in the media — short—term shock. people talk a lot in the media about inflation busting pay rises. _ in the media about inflation busting pay rises, do you know anyone who has had _ pay rises, do you know anyone who has had an— pay rises, do you know anyone who has had an inflation busting pay rise of— has had an inflation busting pay rise of over 10%? maybe 5%. trying to chase _ rise of over 10%? maybe 5%. trying to chase prices but not going beyond that. it _ to chase prices but not going beyond that. it is _ to chase prices but not going beyond that. it is the wrong answer from the bank. — that. it is the wrong answer from the bank, this should not be raising rates _ the bank, this should not be raising rates on _ the bank, this should not be raising rates on thursday.— rates on thursday. welcome to all our callers — rates on thursday. welcome to all our callers this _ rates on thursday. welcome to all our callers this morning. - rates on thursday. welcome to all our callers this morning. james, i | our callers this morning. james, i was speaking to a mortgage broker the other day, and i would think surely any competitive market there will be vying with each other, the giants, to offer the best deals available. and he said, well, people

are still desperate to borrow money. so it is not the competitive market you might expect it to be. that mortgage broker, was his assessment right? mortgage broker, was his assessment riuht? . . , ., ., right? generally, the mortgage market is down _ right? generally, the mortgage market is down 30 _ right? generally, the mortgage market is down 30 to _ right? generally, the mortgage market is down 30 to 4096 - right? generally, the mortgage market is down 30 to 4096 yearj right? generally, the mortgage i market is down 30 to 4096 year on market is down 30 to 40% year on year. a few points here, inflation has been created by president putin, thatis has been created by president putin, that is in fact, it has not been created by the population out there buying flatscreen tvs and going on holiday and eating out every night of the week. it is not happening. to suggest that the government helps people out, that can't work either because it would have to be funded by the taxpayer with increased taxes. we have already seen corporation tax rise by 25% in real terms to 25%, that is just not a good idea. what we can say about the lenders, you made a good point, we

are of a certain age, you are a couple of years older than me, we may remember 15 years ago when we used to have tracker mortgage that was below the bank of england base rate. i can remember having a tracker mortgage at 0.76 below the bank of england base rate. if the bank could afford it then, i'm sure they can afford it now. the banks, i think, are making an awful lot of money at the moment, their profits are huge. another caller said converting to interest only, i think lenders should be more agreeable to that because the point is, if you apply for an interest only mortgage to date with another lender from who you are with now, you can get it. but if you go to your own lender and say, look, i'm sorry, istarted

but if you go to your own lender and say, look, i'm sorry, i started off because of the high interest rates, i am struggling, they go, no, no, because of the high interest rates, iam struggling, they go, no, no, we can't do that! it seems counterintuitive. there are a lot of things that are wrong. andrew bailey, he needs to try and instil some... i don't know, some come to the market. the markets are driven by sentiment and expectation. if he says enough is enough, we have gone far enough with his interest rates, perhaps the rates are independent fixed rates could ease back and have a direct effect on mortgage costs. great stuff. simon, good morning. sigh no good morning. is it a beautiful day where you are? it is blazin: beautiful day where you are? it is blazing hot _ beautiful day where you are? it is blazing hot at _ beautiful day where you are? it is blazing hot at the minute. what i

blazing hot at the minute. what about interest _ blazing hot at the minute. what about interest rates? _ blazing hot at the minute. what about interest rates? i - blazing hot at the minute. what about interest rates? i said - blazing hot at the minute. what about interest rates? i said in i blazing hot at the minute. what i about interest rates? i said in my messaue, about interest rates? i said in my message. my _ about interest rates? i said in my message, my mortgage - about interest rates? i said in my message, my mortgage has - about interest rates? i said in my - message, my mortgage has doubled, we have got— message, my mortgage has doubled, we have got interest only mortgage, and what it— have got interest only mortgage, and what it has— have got interest only mortgage, and what it has done is stopped us being able to— what it has done is stopped us being able to pay— what it has done is stopped us being able to pay our electricity bill property. _ able to pay our electricity bill properly. other commitments that we have. _ properly. other commitments that we have. i_ properly. other commitments that we have. i had _ properly. other commitments that we have. i had a — properly. other commitments that we have. i had a think about it before i have. i had a think about it before i came _ have. i had a think about it before i came on— have. i had a think about it before i came on air, if you liken this to a doctor— i came on air, if you liken this to a doctor prescribing an antibiotic, and it— a doctor prescribing an antibiotic, and it does— a doctor prescribing an antibiotic, and it does not work, and he keeps prescribing — and it does not work, and he keeps prescribing it and it still doesn't work. _ prescribing it and it still doesn't work. why— prescribing it and it still doesn't work, why are you still doing it? by putting _ work, why are you still doing it? by putting the — work, why are you still doing it? by putting the interest rates up like this. _ putting the interest rates up like this. it _ putting the interest rates up like this. it is — putting the interest rates up like this, it is having no effect at all and one — this, it is having no effect at all and one of— this, it is having no effect at all and one of the aspects that someone said before. — and one of the aspects that someone said before, the government has no control— said before, the government has no control over — said before, the government has no control over the cost of fuel other than _ control over the cost of fuel other than taxation on it. how do they expect— than taxation on it. how do they expect to — than taxation on it. how do they expect to bring interest rates down

we have got to a situation now where people _ we have got to a situation now where people at _ we have got to a situation now where people at bank of england, they need to have _ people at bank of england, they need to have a _ people at bank of england, they need to have a hard think about what they are doing _ to have a hard think about what they are doing and whether there are solutions— are doing and whether there are solutions are best for everybody. everyone — solutions are best for everybody. everyone seems to protest, but no one is— everyone seems to protest, but no one is doing — everyone seems to protest, but no one is doing anything about this. enough — one is doing anything about this. enough is — one is doing anything about this. enough is enough because you are crucifying — enough is enough because you are crucifying us! there was a point when _ crucifying us! there was a point when the — crucifying us! there was a point when the government were giving people _ when the government were giving people help with things like electricity, and you think, hang on, i'm electricity, and you think, hang on, im going _ electricity, and you think, hang on, im going to— electricity, and you think, hang on, i'm going to stand on my own two feet. _ i'm going to stand on my own two feet. i_ i'm going to stand on my own two feet. i do— i'm going to stand on my own two feet, i do not need this. and i think. — feet, i do not need this. and i think, hang on a second, you did nothing — think, hang on a second, you did nothing about president putin invading — nothing about president putin invading the crimea, damn you, i will take — invading the crimea, damn you, i will take that money because you created _ will take that money because you created this problem by sitting on your hands and did nothing about president — your hands and did nothing about president putin. the only —— the expert— president putin. the only —— the expert you — president putin. the only —— the expert you had on hit the nail on the head. — expert you had on hit the nail on the head, president putin is responsible for this and we did nothing — responsible for this and we did nothing about it and we are all

paying — nothing about it and we are all paying the consequences of it. the bank— paying the consequences of it. the bank of— paying the consequences of it. the bank of england's solutions are not working? _ bank of england's solutions are not working? really not. i wish people would _ working? really not. i wish people would say — working? really not. i wish people would say enough is enough, we are not doing _ would say enough is enough, we are not doing this and protest about it. lets _ not doing this and protest about it. lets get _ not doing this and protest about it. let's get into that. it is 1025. people should have prepared well rates were low. no one helped us when the rates were 15% in the early 90s. that is a different ratio of earnings, of course, and has properties then, but point taken. my mortgage in the mid—70s was 15%, i got no help, just saying. another one thing is similar thing. i have no sympathy with people who are moaning about their mortgages. we are leaving nicky campbell briefly for a short while to hear from keir starmer, the leader of the

opposition. labour is pledging that it will help people in communities which currently benefit from energy production particularly. he is talking in scotland. what he is going to say is that the green energy influx within those areas is going to help those communities. he will also not be issuing more licences for production of oil and gas within those areas. labour about to pledge, keir starmer about to speak and make the pledge. jonathan blake isjoining us. why is keir starmer saying this now? what are the bones of what he is about to say? it the bones of what he is about to sa ? . . the bones of what he is about to sa ? , ., , .., the bones of what he is about to sa? ,,. ., say? it is a significant speech from the labour — say? it is a significant speech from the labour leader _ say? it is a significant speech from the labour leader this _ say? it is a significant speech from the labour leader this morning - say? it is a significant speech from the labour leader this morning in . the labour leader this morning in edinburgh. he has put green energy and investment in green industries at the heart of labour's economic policies and plans for what it would do if it were elected to power at

the next general election. this morning, he will promise to cut the bill, createjobs and provide energy and security, he will more about labour�*s centrepiece plan for a publicly owned renewable energy company, gb energy and announce it will have its headquarters in scotland somewhere, we do not know exactly where yet. beyond that, we will learn more about his plans specifically as you say that he will confirm that labour will not grant new licences for oil and gas exploration in the north sea, it will honour existing contracts and licenses which will be able to expand, but that industry will not grow under a labour government. they will be no new licences granted. that is coming to criticism from some who say that industry is the basis for and provides many thousands ofjobs in the uk and if you simply cut it off at a stroke,

investment and a big part of the economy will suffer as a result. also on onshore wind, labour will promise keir starmer will see this morning they will lift the ban on unsure wind which means that if there is any local opposition to wind farms being built in england specifically, they cannot go ahead. those two main areas are what we are going to hear more from keir starmer this morning, but as i suggested, he is facing pressure from not only oil and gas industries on the one hand, who want to know their industries have something of a future, but also environmentalist on the other who want labour to go further and have criticised keir starmer rowing back on the party's plans for investment in green energy and green industry as a whole where it comes to power. it would be a fundamental shift, wouldn't it? is

it would be a fundamental shift, wouldn't it?— it would be a fundamental shift, wouldn't it? is significant change from the current _ wouldn't it? is significant change from the current arrangements, | wouldn't it? is significant change i from the current arrangements, this is all part of keir starmer positioning himself, he was talking about this this morning as wanting to take green energy and environmental industries in the uk and make them an area which not only is the focus of government investment but private investment as well. because looking to america he has said, whatjoe biden is doing, the inflation reduction act, heavily subsiding companies operating in this area, the development technology around renewable energy is the way to go forward. he sees it as a growth industry, other countries around europe are doing similar, and keir starmer said this morning he does not want the uk to be left behind. yes, to have that as a centrepiece, is a shift with what the current government is doing. but as we have seen, the economic

reality is starting to bite, recently, labour having to row back on the pledge to invest £28 billion a year in green energy from day one if they came to power, they say thnow it will be wrapped up over time, and only reach that level of investment by the end of the first term of a labour government. so perhaps these equations are changing slightly as keir starmer and his top team wake up to the economic reality of the situation to the promises they have made and if they are possible unsustainable in the next 18 months or so when a general election will have be held. there are stark economic _ election will have be held. there are stark economic realities - are stark economic realities surrounding this, there is the reason he is making this speech in edinburgh. reason he is making this speech in edinburth. ., ., .,, reason he is making this speech in edinburih. ., ., .,, ., reason he is making this speech in edinburth. ., ., .,, ., , edinburgh. scotland has a big investment _ edinburgh. scotland has a big investment and _ edinburgh. scotland has a big investment and a _ edinburgh. scotland has a big investment and a big - edinburgh. scotland has a big investment and a big sector. edinburgh. scotland has a big| investment and a big sector of edinburgh. scotland has a big - investment and a big sector of oil and gas exploration in the north

sea, and elsewhere, and it is where a lot ofjobs this industry support are based. going there to make the speech signals he wants to do it with the backing as far as possible of that industry but also... with the backing as far as possible of that industry but also. . .- of that industry but also... thank ou for of that industry but also... thank you for your _ of that industry but also... thank you for your introductory - of that industry but also... thankj you for your introductory remarks of that industry but also... thank i you for your introductory remarks on everything _ you for your introductory remarks on everything you're doing on this mission. — everything you're doing on this mission, thank you for your leadership in scotland and be under no illusion. — leadership in scotland and be under no illusion, the tide is turning here — no illusion, the tide is turning here in— no illusion, the tide is turning here in scotland and that is why site -- — here in scotland and that is why site —— delighted to be here in leith — site —— delighted to be here in leith to— site —— delighted to be here in leith to launch the labour party's nationat— leith to launch the labour party's national mission on clean energy. because _ national mission on clean energy. because that will create good jobs, well played jobs, half a million new jobs. _ well played jobs, half a million new jobs, 50,000 here in scotland, as we io jobs, 50,000 here in scotland, as we go towards _ jobs, 50,000 here in scotland, as we go towards 90, generate growth right across— go towards 90, generate growth right across the _ go towards 90, generate growth right across the country, in the suffocating cost of living crisis

that putin has put out her throat with real— that putin has put out her throat with real energy security. a stronger— with real energy security. a stronger and more secure britain, once _ stronger and more secure britain, once again — stronger and more secure britain, once again at the service of working people _ once again at the service of working people with cheaper bills and clean etectricity— people with cheaper bills and clean electricity by 2030. applause it is an ambitious goal. it will put us ahead — it is an ambitious goal. it will put us ahead of— it is an ambitious goal. it will put us ahead of any major economy in the world _ us ahead of any major economy in the world but _ us ahead of any major economy in the world but at — us ahead of any major economy in the world. but at the moment, we are nowhere _ world. but at the moment, we are nowhere near the front of the pack. and this _ nowhere near the front of the pack. and this is — nowhere near the front of the pack. and this is a — nowhere near the front of the pack. and this is a race we have to win. the biggest — and this is a race we have to win. the biggest opportunity we've had in decades— the biggest opportunity we've had in decades to make the country work for working _ decades to make the country work for working people. this is always the test for— working people. this is always the test for labour, the purpose of my labour _ test for labour, the purpose of my labour party, all the changes we've made _ labour party, all the changes we've made for— labour party, all the changes we've made for this. to face down and a driven— made for this. to face down and a driven security, protect, serve and deliver— driven security, protect, serve and deliver for— driven security, protect, serve and deliver for the aspirations of people. _ people.

applause and we relish it. we embrace the harsh— and we relish it. we embrace the harsh tight — and we relish it. we embrace the harsh light of clear accountability, that is— harsh light of clear accountability, that is the — harsh light of clear accountability, that is the challenge we choose with mission _ that is the challenge we choose with mission led government. and we do it because _ mission led government. and we do it because there are deeper questions here. _ because there are deeper questions here. questions, i'll be frank, that are being — here. questions, i'll be frank, that are being asked of all of us. being asked _ are being asked of all of us. being asked of— are being asked of all of us. being asked of britain. can we still achieve _ asked of britain. can we still achieve great thingswe unite and move _ achieve great thingswe unite and move forward? can we change, can we grow. _ move forward? can we change, can we grow. can _ move forward? can we change, can we grow. can we _ move forward? can we change, can we grow, can we get things done, can we build things? — grow, can we get things done, can we build things? industries, new technologies, newjobs. wellthey come _ technologies, newjobs. wellthey come to— technologies, newjobs. wellthey come to our shores? or will the future _ come to our shores? or will the future passers—by? you can put even more _ future passers—by? you can put even more starkly. — future passers—by? you can put even more starkly. around the world people — more starkly. around the world people want to know are we still a great _ people want to know are we still a great nation? and look, if the question— great nation? and look, if the question is about the british people. _ question is about the british people, the answer is emphatically

yes. but _ people, the answer is emphatically yes. but if— people, the answer is emphatically yes. but if it is about british politics. _ yes. but if it is about british politics. i_ yes. but if it is about british politics, i don't need to even politics, idon't need to even answer— politics, i don't need to even answer that, politics, i don't need to even answerthat, do i? this politics, i don't need to even answer that, do i? this is what we are taking — answer that, do i? this is what we are taking on. they labour offer at the next _ are taking on. they labour offer at the next election, a new government and a _ the next election, a new government and a new— the next election, a new government and a new way of governing. a plan for change. — and a new way of governing. a plan for change, a plan to use a clean power— for change, a plan to use a clean power to— for change, a plan to use a clean power to build a new britain, a plan to get— power to build a new britain, a plan to get our— power to build a new britain, a plan to get our future back and say to those _ to get our future back and say to those who — to get our future back and say to those who doubt that we can still be great. _ those who doubt that we can still be great. we _ those who doubt that we can still be great, we are, we can and we will. applause — applause but also, that we must, and that the creative _ but also, that we must, and that the creative genius of scotland is critical — creative genius of scotland is critical to _ creative genius of scotland is critical to our prospects. i'll start— critical to our prospects. i'll start with _ critical to our prospects. i'll start with the necessity. the unbending urgency of this mission. it is unbending urgency of this mission. it is not _ unbending urgency of this mission. it is notjust— unbending urgency of this mission. it is notjust about unbending urgency of this mission. it is not just about the unbending urgency of this mission. it is notjust about the imperative of the _ it is notjust about the imperative of the climate emergency, notjust the fundamentals of global economic

competition, the race for the jobs of the _ competition, the race for the jobs of the future, it's all of that, absolutely. but it's also something even more — absolutely. but it's also something even more serious. make no mistake, we are _ even more serious. make no mistake, we are living _ even more serious. make no mistake, we are living in an increasingly volatile — we are living in an increasingly volatile world. the twin risks of climate — volatile world. the twin risks of climate change and energy security now threaten the stability of nations. _ now threaten the stability of nations. so we've got to grant everything we do any new insight. that clean— everything we do any new insight. that clean energy is now essential for national security. applause our allies, in the white house in particular. — our allies, in the white house in particular, have been crystal clear about— particular, have been crystal clear about this. — particular, have been crystal clear about this. and the war in ukraine shows— about this. and the war in ukraine shows the — about this. and the war in ukraine shows the argument with total clarity. — shows the argument with total clarity. it — shows the argument with total clarity. it is asking deep and difficult _ clarity. it is asking deep and difficult questions of all those. and i_ difficult questions of all those. and i fully accept, especially here, fossil— and i fully accept, especially here, fossil fuel— and i fully accept, especially here, fossil fuel energy plays a huge role

in the _ fossil fuel energy plays a huge role in the scottish economy. it is also part of— in the scottish economy. it is also part of the — in the scottish economy. it is also part of the social fabric. communities depend on it, the jobs it provides. — communities depend on it, the jobs it provides, good jobs for working people. _ it provides, good jobs for working people. they are precious. i'm not going _ people. they are precious. i'm not going to _ people. they are precious. i'm not going to give a moral sermon about the urgency— going to give a moral sermon about the urgency of climate change, everybody gets the argument. no, what i _ everybody gets the argument. no, what i offer is a plan. a new course through— what i offer is a plan. a new course through stormy waters, a bridge to a better— through stormy waters, a bridge to a better future. applause let me put it this way. i've been right— let me put it this way. i've been right across _ let me put it this way. i've been right across this nation in the past year. _ right across this nation in the past year. we — right across this nation in the past year. i've been to wick, glasgow, inverness. — year. i've been to wick, glasgow, inverness, kirkcaldy, rutherglen, five. _ inverness, kirkcaldy, rutherglen, five. leave — inverness, kirkcaldy, rutherglen, five, leave here today, and throughout all this i see the contours— throughout all this i see the contours of three different scotland is. there _ contours of three different scotland is. there is — contours of three different scotland is. there is the scotland that the solidarity — is. there is the scotland that the solidarity of working people build, that the _ solidarity of working people build, that the labour movement built, the

industrial— that the labour movement built, the industrial strength, the sense of community, the social housing, the welfare _ community, the social housing, the welfare state, the nhs, all emerging out of— welfare state, the nhs, all emerging out of the _ welfare state, the nhs, all emerging out of the rubble of the second world — out of the rubble of the second world war, all providing security for working people in defiance of a volatile _ for working people in defiance of a volatile world. but there is also the scars — volatile world. but there is also the scars of a second scotland, a scotland — the scars of a second scotland, a scotland born of 1979 onwards, when the labour— scotland born of 1979 onwards, when the labour party was turfed out of power. _ the labour party was turfed out of power. in — the labour party was turfed out of power. in part, it has to be said, by the _ power. in part, it has to be said, bythe snp— power. in part, it has to be said, by the snp and the tories got to manage — by the snp and the tories got to manage that period of enormous upheaval. — manage that period of enormous upheaval. it is to scotland where the prosperity, oil and gas could braun. _ the prosperity, oil and gas could braun. was— the prosperity, oil and gas could braun, was squandered on a political war against— braun, was squandered on a political war against that for scotland. where the governments working class solidarity britain as a threat, not a source — solidarity britain as a threat, not a source of — solidarity britain as a threat, not a source of hope and dynamism. and an economic— a source of hope and dynamism. and an economic transition away from scotland's — an economic transition away from scotland's main industries was, as it was— scotland's main industries was, as it was in— scotland's main industries was, as it was in sheffield and sunderland,

nottinghamshire and leith, chaotic, unstable. _ nottinghamshire and leith, chaotic, unstable, brutal. but if you come places _ unstable, brutal. but if you come places like — unstable, brutal. but if you come places like year, all the marvel of wind _ places like year, all the marvel of wind farms — places like year, all the marvel of wind farms outside glasgow, you can glimpse _ wind farms outside glasgow, you can glimpse a _ wind farms outside glasgow, you can glimpse a different path. the green shoots— glimpse a different path. the green shoots of— glimpse a different path. the green shoots of a — glimpse a different path. the green shoots of a third scotland, a new scotland. — shoots of a third scotland, a new scotland. a — shoots of a third scotland, a new scotland, a future scotland, a scotland — scotland, a future scotland, a scotland that is once again the beating — scotland that is once again the beating heart of britain, because britain _ beating heart of britain, because britain is — beating heart of britain, because britain is once again built foreign by the _ britain is once again built foreign by the solidarity of working people. so let _ by the solidarity of working people. so let me _ by the solidarity of working people. so let me say directly to those people — so let me say directly to those people in— so let me say directly to those people in scotland nervous about the change _ people in scotland nervous about the change this mission requires. i know the ghosts— change this mission requires. i know the ghosts industrial change on their— the ghosts industrial change on their deaths. as a young lawyer i work— their deaths. as a young lawyer i work with— their deaths. as a young lawyer i work with the mining communities to challenge _ work with the mining communities to challenge the tories, but deep down we all—

challenge the tories, but deep down we all know this has to happen eventually. and that the only question— eventually. and that the only question is when. in all candour, the reatity— question is when. in all candour, the reality is this, the moment for decisive _ the reality is this, the moment for decisive action is now. if we wait until— decisive action is now. if we wait until north — decisive action is now. if we wait until north sea oil and gas runs out. _ until north sea oil and gas runs out. the — until north sea oil and gas runs out, the opportunities this change can bring — out, the opportunities this change can bring for scotland and your community will pass us by. and that would _ community will pass us by. and that would be _ community will pass us by. and that would be a — community will pass us by. and that would be a historic mistake. an error for— would be a historic mistake. an error for the future of scotland as bil error for the future of scotland as big as _ error for the future of scotland as big as the — error for the future of scotland as big as the thatcher government closing — big as the thatcher government closing down the coal mines while fluttering — closing down the coal mines while fluttering away the opportunity of the arthur c. applause —— the north sea. applause -- the north sea. y w applause -- the north sea. g , -- the north sea. my offer comedy labour offer. _ -- the north sea. my offer comedy labour offer, is _ -- the north sea. my offer comedy labour offer, is this, _ -- the north sea. my offer comedy labour offer, is this, a _ -- the north sea. my offer comedy labour offer, is this, a credible - labour offer, is this, a credible plan _ labour offer, is this, a credible plan to— labour offer, is this, a credible plan to manage the change, create good _ plan to manage the change, create good jobs. — plan to manage the change, create goodjobs, no plan to manage the change, create good jobs, no cliff edges. ——

plan to manage the change, create goodjobs, no cliff edges. —— my offer. _ goodjobs, no cliff edges. —— my offer. the — goodjobs, no cliff edges. —— my offer, the labour offer. to serve the interests of your community. applause because what is true in scotland is true right— because what is true in scotland is true right across the grass roots of britain. _ true right across the grass roots of britain. we — true right across the grass roots of britain. we can use the opportunity of clean _ britain. we can use the opportunity of clean energy, to create jobs, bring _ of clean energy, to create jobs, bring back— of clean energy, to create jobs, bring back community is the correct apart— bring back community is the correct apart by— bring back community is the correct apart by the deindustrialisation of the 1980s. this is a future we can win. _ the 1980s. this is a future we can win. but — the 1980s. this is a future we can win. but i — the 1980s. this is a future we can win. but i also have to warn you, politicians — win. but i also have to warn you, politicians are saying exactly the same _ politicians are saying exactly the same thing to their people in northern— same thing to their people in northern france, in eastern germany, the rust— northern france, in eastern germany, the rust of— northern france, in eastern germany, the rust of america. we have tremendous advantages here. our coast. _ tremendous advantages here. our coast. are — tremendous advantages here. our coast, are shallow waters, universities, our creativity. the depth _ universities, our creativity. the depth of— universities, our creativity. the depth of our skills, the graft of our people. the technological edge,

and if— our people. the technological edge, and if you _ our people. the technological edge, and if you can believe it, yes, even our weather. — and if you can believe it, yes, even ourweather. financial and if you can believe it, yes, even our weather. financial strength year in edinburgh, and yes, in the city of london — in edinburgh, and yes, in the city of london too, i know, but none the less the _ of london too, i know, but none the less the world each of the green finance. — less the world each of the green finance. a — less the world each of the green finance, a massive advantage for all of us. _ finance, a massive advantage for all of us. there — finance, a massive advantage for all of us. there are no grounds for the defeatism — of us. there are no grounds for the defeatism that says we cannot lead the world _ defeatism that says we cannot lead the world on this. that our prospects will always be squeezed out by _ prospects will always be squeezed out by the us and the eu. that is decline _ out by the us and the eu. that is decline is— out by the us and the eu. that is decline is nonsense. but at the same time we _ decline is nonsense. but at the same time we have to get moving. at the moment— time we have to get moving. at the moment we — time we have to get moving. at the moment we are standing on the sidelines. — moment we are standing on the sidelines, wringing our hands, followed — sidelines, wringing our hands, followed by because a government talks about economic stability yet understands nothing of what this requires — understands nothing of what this requires in times like ours. when the winds— requires in times like ours. when the winds of change are blowing this fiercely. _ the winds of change are blowing this fiercely, you need a government that tets fiercely, you need a government that gets involved. that intervenes in

behalf _ gets involved. that intervenes in behalf of — gets involved. that intervenes in behalf of working people. to secure stability— behalf of working people. to secure stability and growth. drift equals chaos. _ stability and growth. drift equals chaos. this is about tory ideology, of course _ chaos. this is about tory ideology, of course it— chaos. this is about tory ideology, of course it is. their impulses are totally— of course it is. their impulses are totally out — of course it is. their impulses are totally out of step with the challenges of the modern world. they still cleave _ challenges of the modern world. they still cleave to a set of ideas that came _ still cleave to a set of ideas that came out— still cleave to a set of ideas that came out of the 1980s. the dismissal of industrial _ came out of the 1980s. the dismissal of industrial strategy, the contempt for active _ of industrial strategy, the contempt for active government. the complacency that says only the market — complacency that says only the market decides which industries matter— market decides which industries matter for working people and national— matter for working people and national security. you cannot understate this. those ideas are finished — understate this. those ideas are finished. they can't cope with a world _ finished. they can't cope with a world where other countries simply don't _ world where other countries simply don't behave in the way the market dogma _ don't behave in the way the market dogma expects. the world now knows that crucial— dogma expects. the world now knows that crucial global supply chains can be — that crucial global supply chains can be weaponised by tyrants. but a sticking _ can be weaponised by tyrants. but a sticking plaster approach to investment will only cost more in the long — investment will only cost more in the long run. and that, for working class _ the long run. and that, for working

class communities, trickle down economics, mains power trickles up and jobs _ economics, mains power trickles up and jobs trickle out. applause . president biden's national security adviser put it this way, this is the new consensus. but rishi sunak is buying to it. he this is the new consensus. but rishi sunak is buying to it._ sunak is buying to it. he is standing — sunak is buying to it. he is standing still, _ sunak is buying to it. he is standing still, stubbornly . sunak is buying to it. he is standing still, stubbornly clinging on to— standing still, stubbornly clinging on to the — standing still, stubbornly clinging on to the ideas of the past is the opportunities of the future slip through— opportunities of the future slip through our fingers. i won't let that— through our fingers. i won't let that happen. this cannot be a rerun of the _ that happen. this cannot be a rerun of the 1980s. we've got to see is the new— of the 1980s. we've got to see is the new opportunities. this is the race of— the new opportunities. this is the race of our— the new opportunities. this is the race of our lifetime, and the price is real. _ race of our lifetime, and the price is real. we — race of our lifetime, and the price is real. we can cut bills, create jobs _ is real. we can cut bills, create jobs and — is real. we can cut bills, create jobs and provide energy security for britain. _ jobs and provide energy security for britain. that is what a labour government will deliver. applause

that means we need to invest. of course _ that means we need to invest. of course it — that means we need to invest. of course it does. and look, i know this comes — course it does. and look, i know this comes with challenges, political— this comes with challenges, political yes, the british people always— political yes, the british people always need to know they can trust labour _ always need to know they can trust labour to _ always need to know they can trust labour to spend their money wisely. but also _ labour to spend their money wisely. but also economic. because there are no short— but also economic. because there are no short cuts. no easy escape from the damages the tories have done to our public— the damages the tories have done to our public finances, the wreckage of the past _ our public finances, the wreckage of the past 13— our public finances, the wreckage of the past 13 years. we all need to be the past13 years. we all need to be ruthless— the past 13 years. we all need to be ruthless when it comes to our priorities. _ ruthless when it comes to our priorities. and we must accept without— priorities. and we must accept without complaint the constraints of fiscal responsibility. it won't be easy. _ fiscal responsibility. it won't be easy. but — fiscal responsibility. it won't be easy. but if you look at the fiscal rules _ easy. but if you look at the fiscal rules that — easy. but if you look at the fiscal rules that rachel set out nearly two years _ rules that rachel set out nearly two years ago. — rules that rachel set out nearly two years ago, they have proved notjust resilient _ years ago, they have proved notjust resilient to _ years ago, they have proved notjust resilient to the growing tory chaos, but also _ resilient to the growing tory chaos, but also far—sighted, long before

the starting gun was fired, there is an anticipation of a race we must win. _ an anticipation of a race we must win. it _ an anticipation of a race we must win. it was — an anticipation of a race we must win, it was understood this is about protecting _ win, it was understood this is about protecting our interests. but if your— protecting our interests. but if your energy security relies on a volatile — your energy security relies on a volatile fossil fuel market, that leaves — volatile fossil fuel market, that leaves you exposed. and that must be built on— leaves you exposed. and that must be built on a _ leaves you exposed. and that must be built on a rock of economic stability. _ built on a rock of economic stability. so i say again, everything in our manifesto will be fully costed. day—to—day spending will be _ fully costed. day—to—day spending will be completely covered by the taxes _ will be completely covered by the taxes we — will be completely covered by the taxes we collect and we will get debt as — taxes we collect and we will get debt as a — taxes we collect and we will get debt as a share of our economy falling — debt as a share of our economy falling by— debt as a share of our economy falling by the end of the next parliament. we must accept the consequences because if you lose control— consequences because if you lose control of— consequences because if you lose control of the economy, it is working _ control of the economy, it is working people who pay the price. we cannot— working people who pay the price. we cannot let _ working people who pay the price. we cannot let that happen. applause

this is the bread and butter of responsible government. our rules are essential for the british people and for— are essential for the british people and for investors in our country. and _ and for investors in our country. and let — and for investors in our country. and let me _ and for investors in our country. and let me be clear, our plans to borrow _ and let me be clear, our plans to borrow for— and let me be clear, our plans to borrow for the infrastructure of tomorrow. _ borrow for the infrastructure of tomorrow, firmly within these rules. in tomorrow, firmly within these rules. in fact. _ tomorrow, firmly within these rules. in fact. they— tomorrow, firmly within these rules. in fact, they will save our public finances — in fact, they will save our public finances money in the long run. if we fail— finances money in the long run. if we fail to— finances money in the long run. if we fail to move quickly on this, we will increase — we fail to move quickly on this, we will increase debt as a share of our economy— will increase debt as a share of our economy by— will increase debt as a share of our economy by 23%. the tories can test it but— economy by 23%. the tories can test it but look— economy by 23%. the tories can test it but look in— economy by 23%. the tories can test it but look in the country, sticking plasters _ it but look in the country, sticking plasters everywhere. i'll give you an example, green clap, that's what it said. _ an example, green clap, that's what it said. cut— an example, green clap, that's what it said, cut the green claps of the cut investment in home insulation, stalled _ cut investment in home insulation, stalled nuclear energy, banned onshore — stalled nuclear energy, banned onshore wind the result, when the crisis _ onshore wind the result, when the crisis hit _

onshore wind the result, when the crisis hit last year, when russia invaded — crisis hit last year, when russia invaded ukraine, not only did the deal of— invaded ukraine, not only did the deal of businesses and working people — deal of businesses and working people go through the roof, we had to borrow— people go through the roof, we had to borrow £40 billion with no new infrastructure to show for it. that's — infrastructure to show for it. that's not _ infrastructure to show for it. that's no— infrastructure to show for it. that's no ., , ., , . that's not three, that is tory clap. applause it does not fix the leaky roof when the sun _ it does not fix the leaky roof when the sun is— it does not fix the leaky roof when the sun is shining, ignores the roof and up _ the sun is shining, ignores the roof and up rain. — the sun is shining, ignores the roof and up rain, so don't tell me this is a global— and up rain, so don't tell me this is a global crisis hitting every country— is a global crisis hitting every country the same. it isn't, and time and again— country the same. it isn't, and time and again we — country the same. it isn't, and time and again we get hit hardest when sticking _ and again we get hit hardest when sticking plaster politics is why. we will borrow to invest, we will invest — will borrow to invest, we will invest to _ will borrow to invest, we will invest to save for newjobs, new technologies, new industries in working — technologies, new industries in working class communities, for cheaper— working class communities, for cheaper bills and national security, for a plan _

cheaper bills and national security, for a plan that will harness the opportunity of clean energy and make this country— opportunity of clean energy and make this country work for working people. _ people. applause and this isn't some kind of sack cloth _ and this isn't some kind of sack cloth and — and this isn't some kind of sack cloth and sandals message any more, clean _ cloth and sandals message any more, clean british energy is cheaper than fossil— clean british energy is cheaper than fossil fuels, three times cheaper. that's— fossil fuels, three times cheaper. that's a _ fossil fuels, three times cheaper. that's a potential gold mine for our mission _ that's a potential gold mine for our mission and — that's a potential gold mine for our mission and goal growth and the benefits— mission and goal growth and the benefits flow primarily so i people and working class communities. i went— and working class communities. i went to _ and working class communities. i went to the — and working class communities. i went to the steelworks and scunthorpe two weeks ago and spoke to the _ scunthorpe two weeks ago and spoke to the workforce there. now, they don't _ to the workforce there. now, they don't glue — to the workforce there. now, they don't glue themselves to railings, but let— don't glue themselves to railings, but let me — don't glue themselves to railings, but let me tell you, they are desperate for change. they say we want _ desperate for change. they say we want clean — desperate for change. they say we want clean energy. we've got the customers, we just need the technology and a government that stands _ technology and a government that stands alongside us. it's the same

story— stands alongside us. it's the same story in— stands alongside us. it's the same story in clyde bridge, port talbot, these _ story in clyde bridge, port talbot, these jobs — story in clyde bridge, port talbot, these jobs are on the line. so let's back— these jobs are on the line. so let's back carbon — these jobs are on the line. so let's back carbon capture, invest in hydrogen. _ back carbon capture, invest in hydrogen, nuclear, tidal energy, double _ hydrogen, nuclear, tidal energy, double onshore wind, tribal solar power. _ double onshore wind, tribal solar power, quadruple offshore wind, insulate — power, quadruple offshore wind, insulate 90 million homes. applause this is the new foundation for british— this is the new foundation for british prosperity. £1400 a year of energy— british prosperity. £1400 a year of energy bills for working families, 'ust energy bills for working families, just imagine the difference that will make any cost of living crisis. -- off— will make any cost of living crisis. —— off energy bills. to maximise these _ —— off energy bills. to maximise these benefits we need to go beyond investment, roll up our sleeves and start building things. run towards the barriers, the planning system, the barriers, the planning system, the skill— the barriers, the planning system, the skill shortages, investing confidence of the great, if the

status — confidence of the great, if the status quo isn't good enough, we must _ status quo isn't good enough, we must find — status quo isn't good enough, we must find reforms that restart our engine. _ must find reforms that restart our engine. l'm — must find reforms that restart our engine. i'm not going to accept a situation — engine. i'm not going to accept a situation where our planning system means— situation where our planning system means it _ situation where our planning system means it takes 13 years to build an offshore _ means it takes 13 years to build an offshore wind farm. i'm not going to let slow— offshore wind farm. i'm not going to let slow connections to the national grid to _ let slow connections to the national grid to hold back £200 billion worth of projects. and i'm not going to allow— of projects. and i'm not going to allow other countries to build the british— allow other countries to build the british upper structure of tomorrow when _ british upper structure of tomorrow when those jobs belong in our country. — country. applause no, we're going to throw everything at this. _ no, we're going to throw everything at this, planning reform, procurement, long—term finance, rnd, a strategic— procurement, long—term finance, rnd, a strategic plan for supply chains, new plan— a strategic plan for supply chains, new plan for a new settlement, clear direction _ new plan for a new settlement, clear direction across all four nations, pulling _ direction across all four nations, pulling together for a simple unifying priority, british power for british— unifying priority, british power for

britishjobs. people are going to be sceptical— britishjobs. people are going to be sceptical about this, i get that, especially in scotland. people say we've _ especially in scotland. people say we've got — especially in scotland. people say we've got the wind farms, we've got the hydro _ we've got the wind farms, we've got the hydro electricity, or in clean energy. — the hydro electricity, or in clean energy, that's good. but the jobs when _ energy, that's good. but the jobs when we — energy, that's good. but the jobs when we were promised, it never came. _ when we were promised, it never came. there _ when we were promised, it never came. there is no denying this, it's a fact. _ came. there is no denying this, it's a fact. the — came. there is no denying this, it's a fact. the tory snp asia has failed miserably. — a fact. the tory snp asia has failed miserably. less than a quarter of the job— miserably. less than a quarter of the job they simply promised have materialised. the simple reason for this is— materialised. the simple reason for this is they— materialised. the simple reason for this is they don't have a plan. never— this is they don't have a plan. never had _ this is they don't have a plan. never had a plan. in the case of tories. — never had a plan. in the case of tories, don't believe in plans. but at a deeper— tories, don't believe in plans. but at a deeper level, because neither of them _ at a deeper level, because neither of them are truly invested in scotland's success. for the snp, any scottish— scotland's success. for the snp, any scottish triumph in britain as a threat — scottish triumph in britain as a threat to— scottish triumph in britain as a threat to the ultimate prize, while

the tories — threat to the ultimate prize, while the tories welcome such division because — the tories welcome such division because they think it works for them politically. _ because they think it works for them politically. look at them both now. look politically. look at them both now. look hard — politically. look at them both now. look hard. the soap opera that continues— look hard. the soap opera that continues to demean britain's reputation. what do they have to say to the _ reputation. what do they have to say to the investors who tell me this is great _ to the investors who tell me this is great political comedy but we don't see britain as a stable investment any more? — see britain as a stable investment any more? they aren't serious. to win this _ any more? they aren't serious. to win this race — any more? they aren't serious. to win this race we need new institutions, new infrastructure, new investors and above all, a new mindset. _ new investors and above all, a new mindset. a— new investors and above all, a new mindset. a relentless determination to unlock— mindset. a relentless determination to unlock the pride and purpose of the whole — to unlock the pride and purpose of the whole country. so today, three new steps. — the whole country. so today, three new steps. all in the first year of the next — new steps. all in the first year of the next labour government. the building _ the next labour government. the building blocks of our plan for a new britain. one, we will harness the bounty— new britain. one, we will harness the bounty of clean energy and do

exactly _ the bounty of clean energy and do exactly what the tories failed to do with north sea oil and gas, a new national— with north sea oil and gas, a new national wealth fund. this will crowd — national wealth fund. this will crowd in— national wealth fund. this will crowd in investment for the projects that are _ crowd in investment for the projects that are critical for growth. the battery— that are critical for growth. the battery giga factories, the clean steel— battery giga factories, the clean steel plant, the poorest, that can finally— steel plant, the poorest, that can finally handle large offshore wind parks. _ finally handle large offshore wind parks, and crucially, will give the british— parks, and crucially, will give the british people a stake in the returns. _ british people a stake in the returns. and businesses, the stability— returns. and businesses, the stability they need, i spoke to people — stability they need, i spoke to people involved in the projects, they are — people involved in the projects, they are ambitious, clear about the benefits— they are ambitious, clear about the benefits of— they are ambitious, clear about the benefits of carbon capture, but frustrated about the speed of progress. and they are also clear about— progress. and they are also clear about the — progress. and they are also clear about the missing ingredient, clarity— about the missing ingredient, clarity of— about the missing ingredient, clarity of thought. provides long—term certainty. this is the game _ long—term certainty. this is the game changer, there are billions upon _ game changer, there are billions upon billions waiting to be locked.

right _ upon billions waiting to be locked. right across the country, in manufacturing and services. we've tot manufacturing and services. we've got to _ manufacturing and services. we've got to move fast, so today we go further. — got to move fast, so today we go further. in — got to move fast, so today we go further, in the competition for clean — further, in the competition for clean energy investment is fierce. it clean energy investment is fierce. it will— clean energy investment is fierce. it will only— clean energy investment is fierce. it will only get fiercer. all around the world — it will only get fiercer. all around the world our competitors are developing new frameworks are attracted and you better believe it, they are _ attracted and you better believe it, they are rewriting the rules of their— they are rewriting the rules of their economies to make sure it delivers — their economies to make sure it delivers good jobs. the american invasion— delivers good jobs. the american invasion reduction act of setting the pace — invasion reduction act of setting the pace and in several months they have created more jobs than we have in seven _ have created more jobs than we have in seven years. but they are not the only ones. — in seven years. but they are not the only ones. in— in seven years. but they are not the only ones. in truth, we have never been _ only ones. in truth, we have never been on _ only ones. in truth, we have never been on this— only ones. in truth, we have never been on this pitch. britain has the second _ been on this pitch. britain has the second largest offshore wind capacity in the world, a close second — capacity in the world, a close second only to china. across the north— second only to china. across the north sea — second only to china. across the north sea in denmark three times as many— north sea in denmark three times as

manyi'obs _ north sea in denmark three times as manyjobs. how do you explain scottish— manyjobs. how do you explain scottish wind turbines built in spain. — scottish wind turbines built in spain. in _ scottish wind turbines built in spain, in holland and indonesia. ? as the _ spain, in holland and indonesia. ? as the workers in the fabrication yards— as the workers in the fabrication yards in— as the workers in the fabrication yards in five, working people that would _ yards in five, working people that would be — yards in five, working people that would be proud to build something great _ would be proud to build something great for— would be proud to build something great for their country look out of their— great for their country look out of their window and watch others putting — their window and watch others putting them up on the fourth. there is nojustification —— fife. mark my words. _ is nojustification —— fife. mark my words. this— is nojustification —— fife. mark my words, this ends with a labour government. applause care sama outlining a strategy for clean energy, clean energy in the uk, which he was not specific about exactly how that would be generated —— keir starmer. he did outline plans to stop issuing licences for the production of oil and gas in the norris c. let's go to our environment, energy and rural affairs corresponding, joining us from scotland. —— in the north sea.

what was the thrust of what keir starmer was trying to say there and why now? starmer was trying to say there and wh now? . . starmer was trying to say there and wh now? ,, ,, ._ starmer was trying to say there and wh now? ,, ,, ., why now? this is essentially a messate why now? this is essentially a message about _ why now? this is essentially a message about investing - why now? this is essentially a message about investing in i why now? this is essentially a i message about investing in clean energy and this is a tee time when the energy industry, principally oil and gas in the uk is on a continual decline. this is an industry that peaked in the very late 1990s, no support somewhere in the region of 215,000 jobs by its own figures. what keir starmer promised today was up what keir starmer promised today was up to half a million jobs what keir starmer promised today was up to half a millionjobs in clean energy through things like offshore wind, doubling capacity, quadrupling capacity and offshore wind and doubling capacity for onshore wind, particular by removing the ban on it which is specific to england. there have been onshore wind farms... carbon capture, storage, hygiene and

nuclear, many of these, and we know oil and gas is the principal cause of climate change by omitting carbon dioxide, there is no argument amongst the political parties about that, but he is talking about it, investing in those jobs, that, but he is talking about it, investing in thosejobs, newjobs in those areas by borrowing to invest in those areas, and principally one of the points that he highlights, the reason why felt this was important is by looking across to america, since the introduction of measures to attract investment, they have seen a huge boom in this and many companies in this country saying they will shift their efforts

and energy to the united states and european union as well because that is such an attractive prospect for them now. what they want to do is try and level the playing field for the uk so that that investment in those green jobs as some are on par with that in the eu and america. the auestion with that in the eu and america. the question then becomes how is this all going to be financed? because on the one hand he is talking about you winding down of the traditional oil and gas industry but investment in a new industry which he pledges will create jobs. new industry which he pledges will createjobs. the new industry which he pledges will create jobs. the question new industry which he pledges will createjobs. the question is new industry which he pledges will create jobs. the question is where it is the money coming from? welcome he is clear that — it is the money coming from? welcome he is clear that will _ it is the money coming from? welcome he is clear that will involve _ it is the money coming from? welcome he is clear that will involve more - he is clear that will involve more borrowing but he means that borrowing but he means that borrowing will have to be within the rules of still creating a stable economy and he knows that that will be a point of difference, a point of criticism for this plan from his

opponents, from the conservatives, but he is quite clear that that involves borrowing to invest in the shoe industry, invest in these new jobs for the future, and of course, he says that will produce dividends because it will create half a billion, half a million because it will create half a billion, halfa millionjobs, 50,000 of thosejobs in billion, halfa millionjobs, 50,000 of those jobs in scotland and it's interesting to know that this arrangement was made in scotland today but not here in the north—east of scotland, not in the oil and gas capital around aberdeen stop it was donein capital around aberdeen stop it was done in leith, edinburgh instead, perhapsjust done in leith, edinburgh instead, perhaps just associate himself those industries, but to create a just perhaps just associate himself those industries, but to create a just transition, a lot of that investment transition, a lot of that investment will have to be in the areas that will have to be in the areas that will have to be in the areas that will be seen continuing decline in will have to be in the areas that will be seen continuing decline in those jobs and that principally is those jobs and that principally is around aberdeen in the aberdeenshire around aberdeen in the aberdeenshire area. . ~' area. . ~' around aberdeen in the aberdeenshire area. ., ~ i. around aberdeen in the aberdeenshire area. . ~ ,, y around aberdeen in the aberdeenshire area. ., ~ , . around aberdeen in the aberdeenshire area. ., ~ i. around aberdeen in the aberdeenshire area. . ~ ,, y around aberdeen in the aberdeenshire area. ., ~ , .

around aberdeen in the aberdeenshire area. . ~' , . ., area. thank you very much. please go to our keir starmer— around aberdeen in the aberdeenshire area. . ~' , . ., area. thank you very much. please go to our keir starmer— area. thank you very much. please go to our keir starmer live _ area. thank you very much. please go to our keir starmer live page - area. thank you very much. please go to our keir starmer live page that - area. thank you very much. please go to our keir starmer live _ area. thank you very much. please go to our keir starmer live page - area. thank you very much. please go to our keir starmer live page that - to our keir starmer live page that gives an outline of what to our keir starmer live page that gives an outline of what the leader of the opposition has been saying about labour's plans for green energy, should they win the election next year. the former prime minister david cameron is set to give evidence shortly at the covid—19 public inquiry. it's the second week in the first phase of this inquiry, which is scrutinizing the uk's preparedness for a pandemic before covid hit in 2020, and looking at the government's decision—making in response to the outbreak. a number of high—level politicians and health officials are set to make an appearance this week for the inquiry. among