disasters, a problems, her consumer, disasters, a bowler or anything else, the system works extremely well but the system works extremely well but the system works better when the prime minister is in the chair, asking questions, are driving changes in making sure changes are made. some answer the prime minister. we have dealt with your concerns around _ we have dealt with your concerns around the — we have dealt with your concerns around the world health organization and how— around the world health organization and how you sought to deal with those _ and how you sought to deal with those and — and how you sought to deal with those and i'm now going to move on to the _ those and i'm now going to move on to the final— those and i'm now going to move on to the final area of questioning, the impact of austerity on the health— the impact of austerity on the health and social care service and underlying — health and social care service and underlying health inequalities. i would _ underlying health inequalities. i would like to display paragraph 26 of george osborne 's witness statement, which we have. paragraph 26, please.

thank you. "reducing the deficit and placing debt as — "reducing the deficit and placing debt as a — "reducing the deficit and placing debt as a percentage of gdp on a downward — debt as a percentage of gdp on a downward path was also essential to rebuild _ downward path was also essential to rebuild fiscal space to provide scope — rebuild fiscal space to provide scope to— rebuild fiscal space to provide scope to respond to future economic shocks _ scope to respond to future economic shocks a _ scope to respond to future economic shocks. a responsible approach to repairing — shocks. a responsible approach to repairing the uk 's public finances are following the financial crisis was essential. i have no doubt that taking _ was essential. i have no doubt that taking those steps to repair the uk 's taking those steps to repair the uk '5 public— taking those steps to repair the uk 's public finances in the years following _ 's public finances in the years following the financial crisis of 2008- — following the financial crisis of 2008- 09 had a following the financial crisis of 2008— 09 had a material and positive effect _ 2008— 09 had a material and positive effect on _ 2008— 09 had a material and positive effect on the uk 's ability to respond _ effect on the uk 's ability to respond to the covid—19 pandemic. the nrost _ respond to the covid—19 pandemic. the most urgent task facing the uk economy, — the most urgent task facing the uk economy, as stated in budget 2010, was therefore to implement an accelerated plan to reduce the deficit — accelerated plan to reduce the deficit. indeed, there was cross—party consensus on the need to reduce _ cross—party consensus on the need to reduce the _ cross—party consensus on the need to reduce the deficit following the

financial— reduce the deficit following the financial crisis." and _ financial crisis." and you have already made reference, mr cameron, _ and you have already made reference, mr cameron, to the need for this to happen, _ mr cameron, to the need for this to happen, and — mr cameron, to the need for this to happen, and in yourview, forthe positive _ happen, and in yourview, forthe positive effect that that had on the state _ positive effect that that had on the state of _ positive effect that that had on the state of the country's finances going — state of the country's finances going into the covid—19 pandemic. we can take _ going into the covid—19 pandemic. we can take that down, please. the — can take that down, please. the purpose of the following questions that i have for you is not to explore — questions that i have for you is not to explore whether that policy was i’i l ht to explore whether that policy was right or _ to explore whether that policy was right or wrong. that is no part of this inquiry, _ right or wrong. that is no part of this inquiry, to descend into those political— this inquiry, to descend into those political areas. what we are interested in are the impacts and consequences of that policy in three areas. _ consequences of that policy in three areas, please. health, inequality and societal resistance. the _ and societal resistance. the health and social care act 2012 changed _ the health and social care act 2012 changed the landscape of public

health. — changed the landscape of public health, did it not, because it transferred to local authorities public— transferred to local authorities public health features, and the involvement of directors of public health _ involvement of directors of public health. so, from that time, from 2012. _ health. so, from that time, from 2012, those _ health. so, from that time, from 2012, those areas of public health were _ 2012, those areas of public health were no— 2012, those areas of public health were no longer funded through the department of health in the way that they had _ department of health in the way that they had been before. mr osborne also says— they had been before. mr osborne also says in— they had been before. mr osborne also says in paragraph 71 of his witness — also says in paragraph 71 of his witness statement, we don't need to put this— witness statement, we don't need to put this up. — witness statement, we don't need to put this up, that the department of health _ put this up, that the department of health 's _ put this up, that the department of health 's budget from 2011—2012, until 2014-15, health 's budget from 2011—2012, until 2014—15, was to increase in real terms— until 2014—15, was to increase in real terms in each financial year, and that— real terms in each financial year, and that that growth occurred in circumstances where all other departmental budgets, other than overseas — departmental budgets, other than overseas aid, were cut by an average of 19% _ overseas aid, were cut by an average of 19% over— overseas aid, were cut by an average of 19% over the same period. he also goes on _ of19% over the same period. he also goes on to— of 19% over the same period. he also goes on to say that in 2010 the budget— goes on to say that in 2010 the budget for public health was ring fenced. — budget for public health was ring fenced, but of course, as we have

'ust fenced, but of course, as we have just discussed, that was only relevant _ just discussed, that was only relevant up to 2012, at which point in tinre, _ relevant up to 2012, at which point in time, public health was no longer funded _ in time, public health was no longer funded through the department of health _ funded through the department of health. do you accept, mr cameron, that the _ health. do you accept, mr cameron, that the health budgets over the time of— that the health budgets over the time of your government were inadequate, and led to a depletion inadequate, and led to a depletion in its _ inadequate, and led to a depletion in its ability to provide an adequate service? | in its ability to provide an adequate service?- in its ability to provide an adequate service? i don't accept that. neither— adequate service? i don't accept that. neither on _ adequate service? i don't accept that. neither on a _ adequate service? i don't accept that. neither on a big _ adequate service? i don't accept that. neither on a big picture . that. neither on a big picture level, or on a small picture level. the big picture level, i gently gout can separate the decision and the necessity of getting the budget deficit down —— i don't think you can separate. and also having a gdp ratio to cope with future crises. you can't separate that from the funding of the health service or anything else. if you lose control of your debt and you lose control of your deficit, and you lose control of your economy, you end up cutting the health service. that's what happened in greece, in countries that did lose control of their

finances. i don't think you can separate the two. we made the important decision to say that the health service was different, its budget would be protected, so there were real terms increases every year. for instance, there were 10,000 more doctors working in the nhs at the end of the time i was prime minister than there were at the beginning. would everyone like to spend even more on the health service? yes. making these difficult choices about spending was not a sort of option that was picked out of thin air. i still believe it was absolutely essential to get the british economy and british public finances back to health so you can cope with future crises. the inquiry has received _ cope with future crises. the inquiry has received witness _ cope with future crises. the inquiry has received witness statements i cope with future crises. the inquiry i has received witness statements from jeremy— has received witness statements from jeremy hunt, who was the secretary of state _ jeremy hunt, who was the secretary of state for— jeremy hunt, who was the secretary of state for health, and then health and social— of state for health, and then health and social care from 2012 — 2018. were _ and social care from 2012 — 2018. were you — and social care from 2012 — 2018. were you aware that during the time

that you _ were you aware that during the time that you were in power, jeremy hunt laboured _ that you were in power, jeremy hunt laboured considerable concerns about the structural problems within nhs capacity. _ the structural problems within nhs capacity, and the workforce, and funding? — capacity, and the workforce, and funding? he has set this out in his witness _ funding? he has set this out in his witness statement. | funding? he has set this out in his witness statement.— funding? he has set this out in his witness statement. i have read his witness statement. i have read his witness statement. _ witness statement. i have read his witness statement. he _ witness statement. i have read his witness statement. he was - witness statement. i have read his witness statement. he was a - witness statement. i have read his witness statement. he was a very| witness statement. he was a very capable health secretary. i worked with him extremely closely. of course he was always batting for the nhs and for all the extra resources he could get. these decisions were arrived at collectively. i agree with a lot of what is in his witness statement, where he says there is more that could be done, for instance, for future workforce planning, but i will absolutely defend the record of the government in both getting control of the finances, and increasing funding for the health service at the same time. aren't these concerns, mr cameron, thatjeremy_ aren't these concerns, mr cameron, thatjeremy hunt set aren't these concerns, mr cameron, that jeremy hunt set out, structural problems— that jeremy hunt set out, structural problems in the nhs, and workforce, and capacity, the real issues which

preparing — and capacity, the real issues which preparing us for a public health emergency needs to address customer not papers _ emergency needs to address customer not papers and guidelines and protocols, but action to remedy fundamental problems. well protocols, but action to remedy fundamental problems.- protocols, but action to remedy fundamental problems. well i think what is needed _ fundamental problems. well i think what is needed to _ fundamental problems. well i think what is needed to prepare - fundamental problems. well i think what is needed to prepare for- fundamental problems. well i think what is needed to prepare for a - what is needed to prepare for a pandemic is, first of all, you have got to have that overall economic capacity, as george osborne puts in his statement, without our action we could have had a trillion of extra debt. and as well as a coronavirus crisis, a public health crisis, you would also have a financial, economic and fiscal crisis at the same time. but the answer to your question is that the best way to prepare is to have a strong economy, and the next thing you need to do is prepare for all of the relevant pandemics that you might face, and we have already discussed where the system i think didn't spend enough time on the sorts of pandemic that

we did end up facing. [10 time on the sorts of pandemic that we did end up facing.— time on the sorts of pandemic that we did end up facing. do you accept that the government _ we did end up facing. do you accept that the government was _ we did end up facing. do you accept| that the government was repeatedly warned _ that the government was repeatedly warned about the growing pressures on the _ warned about the growing pressures on the nhs, firstly from the nuffield trust annual statement in 2015. _ nuffield trust annual statement in 2015, which detailed growing concerns that demand was outstripping capacity, and "the warning — outstripping capacity, and "the warning lights on care quality now -low warning lights on care quality now gtow even— warning lights on care quality now glow even more brightly". and finally, — glow even more brightly". and finally, in _ glow even more brightly". and finally, in 2016, the nuffield trust annual— finally, in 2016, the nuffield trust annual statement before you left office _ annual statement before you left office stated "slowing improvement in some _ office stated "slowing improvement in some areas of quality, combined with longer— in some areas of quality, combined with longer waiting times and ongoing — with longer waiting times and ongoing austerity suggests the nhs is heading for serious problems. it seems _ is heading for serious problems. it seems likely that a system under such immense pressure will be unable at some _ such immense pressure will be unable at some point, in some services, to provide _ at some point, in some services, to provide care — at some point, in some services, to provide care to the standard that patients — provide care to the standard that patients and staff expect". well, of course there _ patients and staff expect". well, of course there were _ patients and staff expect". well, of course there were pressures - patients and staff expect". well, of course there were pressures on - patients and staff expect". well, of course there were pressures on the nhs and on many other public services, but at the end of my time in office i think public satisfaction with the nhs was still

extremely high. i think the kings fund,it extremely high. i think the kings fund, it might have been, was ranking it as one of the most successful health systems in the world. we had virtually abolished mixed sex wards, we had got hospital infections down, we were carrying out 40% more diagnostic tests every week so there were successes in the nhs as well as pressures. but there are always pressures on the services, and ourjob was to try and sort out the economy, which we did, sort out the economy, which we did, so we could then have bigger increases in health spending, which then followed. in increases in health spending, which then followed.— then followed. in preparation for our then followed. in preparation for your evidence — then followed. in preparation for your evidence today, _ then followed. in preparation for your evidence today, you - then followed. in preparation for your evidence today, you were i your evidence today, you were invited — your evidence today, you were invited to _ your evidence today, you were invited to consider the witness statement of professor kevin fenton, the president of the united kingdom faculty— the president of the united kingdom faculty of— the president of the united kingdom faculty of public health, which is a professional standards body for public _ professional standards body for public health specialists and practitioners, with over 4000 members. you will know then that, according _ members. you will know then that, according to — members. you will know then that, according to professor fenton,

health— according to professor fenton, health protection teams saw successive reductions in funding capacity— successive reductions in funding capacity over the pre—pandemic years. — capacity over the pre—pandemic years. and _ capacity over the pre—pandemic years, and a lack of investment in regional— years, and a lack of investment in regional emergency preparedness response — regional emergency preparedness response and resilience teams, and the summary of his evidence provided to the _ the summary of his evidence provided to the inquiry was that there was no rin- to the inquiry was that there was no ring fencing — to the inquiry was that there was no ring fencing of funding to local government for local health protection, that health protection teams _ protection, that health protection teams had their funding reduced and their capacity reduced, and that ultimately, this resulted in a lack of capacity— ultimately, this resulted in a lack of capacity for pandemic preparedness. what is your response to that? _ preparedness. what is your response to that? i_ preparedness. what is your response to that? ., ., ,., to that? i read the fenton report, as the other _ to that? i read the fenton report, as the other reports, _ to that? i read the fenton report, as the other reports, and - to that? i read the fenton report, as the other reports, and i - to that? i read the fenton report, | as the other reports, and i thought i don't want to be too critical, but throughout all of them i thought there was very little acceptance that it there was very little acceptance thatitis there was very little acceptance that it is possible to reform public sector organisations sometimes to merge them and get rid of duplicating bureaucracies and overheads, and get more output for the same amount of money. in several

reports, there wasjust the same amount of money. in several reports, there was just this assumption that you only ever measure inputs rather than measuring outputs. for instance, i would say the creation of public health england, where a lot of it was merging together other bodies, increase the focus on public health, meant money was spent more wisely, and i would argue also that the health and social care act, by putting public health into local authorities, that was the right place for it. local authorities are responsible for housing, for education, and for licensing. so making them responsible for public health is logical. i think most of the experts coming to your inquiry, i don't think people would argue to turn the clock back and put it into the health service. i think these were good reforms. yes, we faced very difficult financial circumstances, but where we could we try to encourage the spending of money more wisely, and sometimes the merging of public bodies was a sensible thing, but they don't seem

to give much credence. you sensible thing, but they don't seem to give much credence.— to give much credence. you have mentioned _ to give much credence. you have mentioned the _ to give much credence. you have mentioned the evidence - to give much credence. you have mentioned the evidence of - to give much credence. you have - mentioned the evidence of professor sir michael marmot. you have clearly read the _ sir michael marmot. you have clearly read the report and you will know that they — read the report and you will know that they gave evidence to this inquiry— that they gave evidence to this inquiry on _ that they gave evidence to this inquiry on friday. do you accept their— inquiry on friday. do you accept their evidence, mr cameron, that health— their evidence, mr cameron, that health inequalities increased during your time _ health inequalities increased during your time in office?— your time in office? well, i have read the reports. _ your time in office? well, i have read the reports. i— your time in office? well, i have read the reports. i accept - your time in office? well, i have read the reports. i accept that i read the reports. i accept that after 2011, read the reports. i accept that after2011, in read the reports. i accept that after 2011, in lots of countries in the world life expectancy continued to improve, but didn't continue to improve so quickly. their conclusion is to look a lot at austerity and what have you, i'm not sure the figures back that up. i think we had some very difficult winters with very bad flu pandemics and i think that had an effect. we had the effect that the improvements in

cardiovascular disease, the big benefits had already come through before that period and that was tailing off. and then you got the evidence from other countries. i mean, greece and spain had far more austerity, brutal cuts, and yet their life expectancy went up. so i don't think it follows. there is one sentence in bandra and marmont said child poverty increase but actually went down. the number of pensioners living in absolute poverty went down considerably. so you don't agree? they have got lots of important evidence and i looked at it carefully and we'll think about it carefully, but i did find that they had led to a certain set of... david cameron giving — had led to a certain set of... david cameron giving evidence - had led to a certain set of... david cameron giving evidence to - had led to a certain set of... david cameron giving evidence to the i cameron giving evidence to the covid—19 inquiry. we are now saying goodbye to viewers watching on bbc

two. keep watching on the news channel. i agree with professor vanbrugh that social and economic conditions have a big bearing on health inequalities, and therefore the fact that there were 2.6 million more people in work, there were over half a million fewer children in households where no one worked. these are, though obviously a big dent in pension poverty because of the triple lock and the increase in the triple lock and the increase in the pension, these are positives as well which they don't seem to get mentioned in the same way. sol well which they don't seem to get mentioned in the same way. so i had my problems with them, but i'm sure the inquiry can look at the evidence and come to its conclusions. do you acce -t and come to its conclusions. do you accept that — and come to its conclusions. do you accept that cuts _ and come to its conclusions. do you accept that cuts to _ and come to its conclusions. do you accept that cuts to public _ and come to its conclusions. do you accept that cuts to public health - accept that cuts to public health budgets — accept that cuts to public health budgets tended to be largest in the most deprived areas, and that as a result, _ most deprived areas, and that as a result, locat— most deprived areas, and that as a result, localauthorities most deprived areas, and that as a result, local authorities working with the — result, local authorities working with the most vulnerable populations face the _ with the most vulnerable populations face the biggest challenges in carrying — face the biggest challenges in carrying out their public health regions — carrying out their public health regions cut among not necessarily, the way— regions cut among not necessarily, the way the — regions cut among not necessarily, the way the local authority spending decisions _ the way the local authority spending decisions were made or is. it

the way the local authority spending decisions were made or is.— decisions were made or is. it was to make sure — decisions were made or is. it was to make sure the _ decisions were made or is. it was to make sure the reductions _ decisions were made or is. it was to make sure the reductions in - decisions were made or is. it was to | make sure the reductions in spending power in each local authority were broadly equivalent. when you are looking at spending power, you have got to look at the grants from central government to local government, the business rate revenue, and the council tax revenue, and the council tax revenue, and the council tax revenue, and so for instance, i checked this last night, the 2015 settlement was that no council should lose more than 6% of its spending power, and so that does affect different councils in different ways in terms of their grant, but it affects them in a more similar way when it comes to spending power. it is obviously the spending power. it is obviously the spending power. it is obviously the spending power that matters. that’s spending power that matters. that's a better way — spending power that matters. that's a better way of _ spending power that matters. that's a better way of measuring _ spending power that matters. that's a better way of measuring it. - spending power that matters. that's a better way of measuring it. were you aware — a better way of measuring it. were you aware whilst in government of evidence _ you aware whilst in government of evidence that people from lower social— evidence that people from lower social economic groups and minority ethnic— social economic groups and minority ethnic groups would be more likely to be _ ethnic groups would be more likely to be affected by whole system catastrophic shocks? | to be affected by whole system catastrophic shocks?— to be affected by whole system catastrophic shocks? i think it was well known. _ catastrophic shocks? i think it was well known, and _ catastrophic shocks? i think it was well known, and i _ catastrophic shocks? i think it was well known, and i knew, - catastrophic shocks? i think it was well known, and i knew, that - catastrophic shocks? i think it was| well known, and i knew, that when you have health pandemics of any

sort, you get differential effects on different parts of the population. the coronavirus turned out the biggest category, that's the wrong word, the biggest impact was on older people. but many of our policies were directed towards lifting people out of poverty. more jobs. the first national living wage, the big increase in the minimum wage. taking formally in people out of paying income tax. all of these things reformed universal credit and welfare, and the effort at getting people out of welfare and into work. all of these things have an economic and social benefit but also a health benefit. theirs the inquiries so that existin: theirs the inquiries so that existing health _ theirs the inquiries so that| existing health inequalities theirs the inquiries so that - existing health inequalities are featured minimally in the planning, they were _ featured minimally in the planning, they were barely mentioned. dsm tart this was— they were barely mentioned. dsm tart this was a _ they were barely mentioned. dsm tart this was a significant omission? | this was a significant omission? i think this was a significant omission? think all this was a significant omission? i think all plants can be improved and

updated and i am sure future plans will, but asked me, did you understand, tojudge government understand, to judge government understand, tojudge government understand the importance of trying to lift people out of poverty and into work and into prosperity, absolutely, that's what the whole plan was about. over my period of government, in the g7, in america coming —— after america, we had the fastest growth in gdp. your health system is only a strong as your economy, one pays for the other. she acce ted economy, one pays for the other. she accepted that if a strong public health— accepted that if a strong public health system is to be nurtured...? ithink— health system is to be nurtured...? i think we _ health system is to be nurtured...? i think we need to improve the way we look at pandemics and the way we plan our resilience because, while i've said the architecture was their understructure was better, the involvement of ministers was better,

or dialogue to ministers and civil servants was good, there is this gap i keep coming back to, which is how do we make sure that you're not subject to groupthink, that you don't plan for one type a pandemic because it's very risky and dangerous gun you need to have teams going in to question the assumptions. and the biggest one was this issue about asymptomatic transmission pump along i kept looking through these documents or what about a pandemic with widescale asymptomatic transmission, and if that question were asked in a lot of things would follow from that. and jeremy hunt's evidence, the hospitals in hong kong had to have three months of ppe supplies. i was never asked, can we have funding for three months of be be supplies for a hospital, but had i been asked, we would have granted it. that's not expensive, not a huge commitment is, but that comes out applying for the

right sort of pandemic. all these questions about economic policy we can argue about, i think it was the right economic policy, but the real problem was the time spent quizzing the experts of what potential pandemics were coming and preparing for tosun the right way and the questions that would follow from that. . ~ questions that would follow from that. ., ,, , ., ., questions that would follow from that. ., ,, ., . , questions that would follow from that. ., ., . , , that. thank you. that concludes my cuestions that. thank you. that concludes my questions of — that. thank you. that concludes my questions of mr _ that. thank you. that concludes my questions of mr cameron _ that. thank you. that concludes my questions of mr cameron and - that. thank you. that concludes my questions of mr cameron and i - that. thank you. that concludes my | questions of mr cameron and i know that prior— questions of mr cameron and i know that prior to— questions of mr cameron and i know that prior to today, permission has been _ that prior to today, permission has been given— that prior to today, permission has been given to kings council on behalf— been given to kings council on behalf of— been given to kings council on behalf of scottish covid bereaved families — behalf of scottish covid bereaved families forjustice to ask questions and may she now be allowed to do that? _ questions and may she now be allowed to do that? i_ questions and may she now be allowed to do that? ., ., ., , , ., ,, to do that? i would normally break now but will _ to do that? i would normally break now but will the _ to do that? i would normally break now but will the stenographer - to do that? i would normally break| now but will the stenographer carry on? thank— now but will the stenographer carry on? thank you _ now but will the stenographer carry on? thank you very _ now but will the stenographer carry on? thank you very much. -

now but will the stenographer carry on? thank you very much. i- now but will the stenographer carry on? thank you very much. i amu- on? thank you very much. i am obliaed. on? thank you very much. i am obliged- mr _ on? thank you very much. i am obliged. mr cameron, - on? thank you very much. i am obliged. mr cameron, i'm - on? thank you very muchm obliged. mr cameron, i'm senior council— obliged. mr cameron, i'm senior councitfor— obliged. mr cameron, i'm senior council for the scottish covid bereaved. you've made it clear in both— bereaved. you've made it clear in both your— bereaved. you've made it clear in both your written evidence and your evidence _ both your written evidence and your evidence here today thatcher understood that pandemics were a very real— understood that pandemics were a very real threat. you may not have remembered the phrase clear and present— remembered the phrase clear and present danger but you would agree with me _ present danger but you would agree with me that as a tier1 race, it was _ with me that as a tier1 race, it was certainly something that was of immediate importance and potentially .rave immediate importance and potentially grave in— immediate importance and potentially grave in terms of risk? yes. we've also heard — grave in terms of risk? yes. we've also heard that _ grave in terms of risk? yes we've also heard that giffin pandemics have _ also heard that giffin pandemics have happened throughout history, it was a _ have happened throughout history, it was a matter of when and not if a pandemic— was a matter of when and not if a pandemic which a car.— was a matter of when and not if a pandemic which a car. yes. you lanauuae pandemic which a car. yes. you language indeed, _ pandemic which a car. yes. you language indeed, a _ pandemic which a car. i;e:3 you language indeed, a bowler pandemic which a car. iles you language indeed, a bowler made pandemic which a car. i9; you language indeed, a bowler made it

clear that — language indeed, a bowler made it clear that you understood effectively that a pandemic was inevitable. , effectively that a pandemic was inevitable.- you _ effectively that a pandemic was inevitable. yes. you also referred to, i think — inevitable. yes. you also referred to, i think here _ inevitable. i9; you also referred to, i think here and also in your statements, about taking a longer term strategic view and trying to fix the _ term strategic view and trying to fix the roof what the sun is shining _ fix the roof what the sun is shining. presumably because while things— shining. presumably because while things are — shining. presumably because while things are good you put plans in place _ things are good you put plans in place so — things are good you put plans in place so that when the pandemic arrives. — place so that when the pandemic arrives. it— place so that when the pandemic arrives, it will allow those to deal with it _ arrives, it will allow those to deal with it so — arrives, it will allow those to deal with it so to — arrives, it will allow those to deal with it so to weather the storm safely — with it so to weather the storm safel . , with it so to weather the storm safely.- because _ with it so to weather the storm safely. yes. because presumably you a- reciated safely. i9; because presumably you appreciated that failure to properly plan would be likely to have a catastrophic effect for the united kingdom. catastrophic effect for the united kin . dom. i catastrophic effect for the united kingdom. yes. can i ask you to look at the following _ kingdom. i9; can i ask you to look at the following documents, and we're _ at the following documents, and we're looking at page seven of that document — we're looking at page seven of that document. while we waiting for that

document— document. while we waiting for that document to come up on screen, this is a document— document to come up on screen, this is a document from the public accounts— is a document from the public accounts committee of the house of commons _ accounts committee of the house of commons, entitled the whole of government response to covid—19. i'd like to— government response to covid—19. i'd like to draw— government response to covid—19. i'd like to draw your attention, pleasem _ like to draw your attention, please... i'll wait until it arrives on screen _ please... i'll wait until it arrives on screen ~~ _ please... i'll wait until it arrives on screen. .. it to the recommendations. g :i . recommendations. my learner client knows very well _ recommendations. my learner client knows very well that _ recommendations. my learner client knows very well that we _ recommendations. my learner client knows very well that we are - knows very well that we are constrained _ knows very well that we are constrained by— knows very well that we are constrained by the - knows very well that we are constrained by the rules - knows very well that we are constrained by the rules ofi constrained by the rules of parliamentary— constrained by the rules of parliamentary privilege - constrained by the rules of| parliamentary privilege not constrained by the rules of i parliamentary privilege not to constrained by the rules of - parliamentary privilege not to be able to _ parliamentary privilege not to be able to put — parliamentary privilege not to be able to put parliamentary- parliamentary privilege not to be i able to put parliamentary material which _ able to put parliamentary material which includes _ able to put parliamentary material which includes any _ able to put parliamentary material which includes any reports - able to put parliamentary material which includes any reports in - able to put parliamentary material which includes any reports in a - able to put parliamentary materiall which includes any reports in a way that calls _ which includes any reports in a way that calls into _ which includes any reports in a way that calls into debate _ which includes any reports in a way that calls into debate the _ which includes any reports in a way that calls into debate the merits i which includes any reports in a way that calls into debate the merits ofj that calls into debate the merits of whatever— that calls into debate the merits of whatever conclusions _ that calls into debate the merits of whatever conclusions are - that calls into debate the merits of whatever conclusions are being i that calls into debate the merits of i whatever conclusions are being drawn up whatever conclusions are being drawn up by _ whatever conclusions are being drawn up by the _ whatever conclusions are being drawn up by the particular— whatever conclusions are being drawn up by the particular parliamentary i up by the particular parliamentary party— up by the particular parliamentary party or— up by the particular parliamentary party or anything _ up by the particular parliamentary party or anything said, _ up by the particular parliamentary party or anything said, in - up by the particular parliamentary party or anything said, in fact, i up by the particular parliamentary party or anything said, in fact, inl party or anything said, in fact, in the chamber— party or anything said, in fact, in the chamberof_ party or anything said, in fact, in the chamber of the _ party or anything said, in fact, in the chamber of the house - party or anything said, in fact, in the chamber of the house of- party or anything said, in fact, in- the chamber of the house of commons. so l'm _ the chamber of the house of commons. so l'm just _ the chamber of the house of commons. so l'm just a _ the chamber of the house of commons. so l'miust a bit— the chamber of the house of commons. so i'm just a bit concerned _ the chamber of the house of commons.

so i'm just a bit concerned we _ the chamber of the house of commons. so i'm just a bit concerned we may- so i'm just a bit concerned we may be breaching — so i'm just a bit concerned we may be breaching parliamentary- so i'm just a bit concerned we may. be breaching parliamentary privilege by going _ be breaching parliamentary privilege by going down — be breaching parliamentary privilege by going down this _ be breaching parliamentary privilege by going down this line _ be breaching parliamentary privilege by going down this line of— by going down this line of examination. _ by going down this line of examination.— by going down this line of examination. �* i . ., , by going down this line of examination. �* i i ., , i, by going down this line of examination. �*i i i, , i, examination. there's certainly a way that i can ask— examination. there's certainly a way that i can ask the _ examination. there's certainly a way that i can ask the questions - examination. there's certainly a way that i can ask the questions without | that i can ask the questions without having _ that i can ask the questions without having to _ that i can ask the questions without having to refer to those documents, so ill— having to refer to those documents, so ill be _ having to refer to those documents, so i'll be able to do that. and i'm obliged _ so i'll be able to do that. and i'm obliged to— so i'll be able to do that. and i'm obliged to my learner to friend highlighting that before that route was gone down. while you were in government and while you were prime minister. _ government and while you were prime minister, did you make any plans for the effects— minister, did you make any plans for the effects economically on individuals in the united kingdom? there _ individuals in the united kingdom? there are _ individuals in the united kingdom? there are two answers to that. the biggest thing was to get the british economy and the public finances in a state where they were capable of responding to the next crisis. as i answered earlier, we will have another pandemic, we will have another pandemic, we will have

another economic crisis of some short, weather it's a recession or a banking crisis or insurance, who knows what it will be. the question is, do you have the spare capacity to suddenly borrow another ten, 15, 20% of your gdp to help your country and help people through it? that was very much in my mind when we took the plan to reduce the budget deficit and get the net gdp ratio under control, because that's the responsible thing to do. the second answer is, in the national risk assessments, there's quite a lot of material about national business resilience planning, working out, if you had a pandemic flu, and even with the pandemic flu we were looking at which had hundreds of thousands of deaths and a huge affect on the economy, what do you do to help the various sectors of the economy to recover? to that

extent, yes, there was a planet. your plan was about the country, what _ your plan was about the country, what was — your plan was about the country, what was asking you about was was there _ what was asking you about was was there a _ what was asking you about was was there a plan made for the economic impact _ there a plan made for the economic impact on _ there a plan made for the economic impact on individuals during a pandemic?— impact on individuals during a andemic? ~ i, , pandemic? untilyou know exactly what pandemic— pandemic? untilyou know exactly what pandemic you _ pandemic? untilyou know exactly what pandemic you face, - pandemic? untilyou know exactly what pandemic you face, on i pandemic? until you know exactly i what pandemic you face, on whether you're going to need to have people at home, so you have a furlough plan, oryou're at home, so you have a furlough plan, or you're going to have to act in a different way and might need to cut vat or change tax rates — those decisions can be made very quickly, as they were to the credit of the chancellor when the pandemic hit, but need to have the capacity in the economy to do it. you clearly understood — in the economy to do it. you clearly understood the _ in the economy to do it. you clearly understood the idea _ in the economy to do it. you clearly understood the idea that _ in the economy to do it. you clearly understood the idea that a - in the economy to do it. you clearly| understood the idea that a pandemic might— understood the idea that a pandemic might mean people were sick and not able to— might mean people were sick and not able to attend work and businesses would _ able to attend work and businesses would have problems. yes. did you while in would have problems. i9; did you while in government make any plans

or have _ while in government make any plans or have any— while in government make any plans or have any conversations about what a furlough _ or have any conversations about what a furlough might look like, about what _ a furlough might look like, about what an— a furlough might look like, about what an economic plan might look like. _ what an economic plan might look like. where — what an economic plan might look like, where those discussions had? i can't remember every discussion i had to but i have seen in the national risk assessment those sorts of things are looked out and obviously, in government, when we were looking at the threat of pandemics or terrorist attacks or the threat of a major terrorist attack that could take out a whole city, what would you do in order to keep the economy going and help people, yes, we did have those conversations.— conversations. what i am specifically _ conversations. what i am specifically asking - conversations. what i am specifically asking about | conversations. what i am | specifically asking about is conversations. what i am i specifically asking about is not conversations. what i am - specifically asking about is not at the level— specifically asking about is not at the level you're talking about, i'm talking _ the level you're talking about, i'm talking about the individuals that will not _ talking about the individuals that will not be able to go to work, i'm talking _ will not be able to go to work, i'm talking about the businesses that needed _ talking about the businesses that needed to keep going. there were no concrete _ needed to keep going. there were no concrete plans made for that,

correct? — concrete plans made for that, correct? i, ~ , i, correct? you keep asking me there is, i correct? you keep asking me there is. i would — correct? you keep asking me there is, i would have _ correct? you keep asking me there is, i would have to _ correct? you keep asking me there is, i would have to go _ correct? you keep asking me there is, i would have to go back- correct? you keep asking me there is, i would have to go back over i correct? you keep asking me there| is, i would have to go back over the national risk assessments, i think there are plants looking at individual sectors and businesses and what would have to be done. maybe i can look at that again and give you a written answer because i don't want to say there's something in them that isn't but i do think they address these questions. i’m in them that isn't but i do think they address these questions. i'm to skim what would _ they address these questions. i'm to skim what would be _ they address these questions. i'm to skim what would be greatly - they address these questions. i'm to skim what would be greatly assisted if you _ skim what would be greatly assisted if you can _ skim what would be greatly assisted if you can find anything in relation to the _ if you can find anything in relation to the economic planning but as of today's— to the economic planning but as of today's takes, you can't think of anything? — today's takes, you can't think of an hinu ? ~ today's takes, you can't think of an hinu ? 9 ii, i today's takes, you can't think of an hinu ? 9 i , anything? well, i can, which is if ou have anything? well, i can, which is if you have a _ anything? well, i can, which is if you have a strong _ anything? well, i can, which is if you have a strong economy i anything? well, i can, which is if you have a strong economy and. anything? well, i can, which is if- you have a strong economy and good public finances, you can flex your tax, your benefit system, your spending, that you can have enormous financial capacity of the british state to act and help people. we now

know that thousands _ state to act and help people. we now know that thousands died _ state to act and help people. we now know that thousands died of - state to act and help people. we now know that thousands died of covid i know that thousands died of covid and we _ know that thousands died of covid and we know evidence that the uk was not prepared for a pandemic and that after years— not prepared for a pandemic and that after years of underfunding and cuts in quality _ after years of underfunding and cuts in quality is, this impacted on the devastating scale of the deaths. in retrospect, do you agree that as prime _ retrospect, do you agree that as prime minister, it would have been wise for— prime minister, it would have been wise for you — prime minister, it would have been wise for you to plan for economic impacts— wise for you to plan for economic impacts of— wise for you to plan for economic impacts of the pandemic and i mean by that— impacts of the pandemic and i mean by that the _ impacts of the pandemic and i mean by that the furloughs and business schemes. — by that the furloughs and business schemes, so that you had a plan ready— schemes, so that you had a plan ready made, off the peg, available to implement so that the government was not _ to implement so that the government was not left scrabbling around and making _ was not left scrabbling around and making ad — was not left scrabbling around and making ad hoc decisions and very fast time. — making ad hoc decisions and very fast time, right at the very moment when _ fast time, right at the very moment when they— fast time, right at the very moment when they could have been better focusing _ when they could have been better focusing on other matters, like the pandemic? — focusing on other matters, like the pandemic? i�*m focusing on other matters, like the andemic? �* i, i, focusing on other matters, like the andemic? �* ii ii i, pandemic? i'm afraid, with great resect, pandemic? i'm afraid, with great respect. rrot _ pandemic? i'm afraid, with great respect, not sure _ pandemic? i'm afraid, with great respect, not sure i _ pandemic? i'm afraid, with great respect, not sure i agree - pandemic? i'm afraid, with great respect, not sure i agree with i pandemic? i'm afraid, with great| respect, not sure i agree with the premise of the question when the ring before the scheme came in very quickly and very boldly and makes an enormous difference. that was possible because we had the

financial capacity to do it. for all the plants you can have any world, until you actually see the nature of the pandemic and how it's developing, planning in advance exactly what your economic responses are to be is of limited use. it would certainly be useful to have an economic— would certainly be useful to have an economic response which took into account— economic response which took into account something that you knew would _ account something that you knew would happen, which is that people would _ would happen, which is that people would be _ would happen, which is that people would be sick and off work. but what ou don't would be sick and off work. but what you don't know _ would be sick and off work. but what you don't know is, _ would be sick and off work. but what you don't know is, are _ would be sick and off work. but what you don't know is, are you _ would be sick and off work. but what you don't know is, are you going i would be sick and off work. but what you don't know is, are you going to l you don't know is, are you going to have a pandemic were people who are symptomatic stay at home or are you going to have a pandemic where, effectively, and the committee and were quite sure what a decide effectively, and the committee and were quite sure what a decide whether you are right or wrong, you whether you are right or wrong, you have a lot to market everybody stays have a lot to market everybody stays at home. this is two different types at home. this is two different types of pandemic requiring two different of pandemic requiring two different types of economic response. despite types of economic response. despite what ou types of economic response. despite what you say — types of economic response. despite what you say about _ what ou types of economic response. despite what you say — types of economic response. despite what you say about _ types of economic response. despite what you say about planning, - types of economic response. despite what you say about planning, to i what you say about planning, to accept _ what you say about planning, to types of economic response. despite what you say about planning, - types of economic response. despite what you say about planning, to i what you say about planning, to accept _ what you say about planning, to accept that when the pandemic accept that when the pandemic

arrived. — arrived. — accept that when the pandemic arrived, the uk still found and accept that when the pandemic arrived, the uk still found itself in a situation where essential medical— in a situation where essential medical items such as the ventilators, stockpiles of ppe, how control. _ ventilators, stockpiles of ppe, how control, were not still readily available. _ control, were not still readily available-— control, were not still readily available. clearly, there were problems _ available. clearly, there were problems when _ available. clearly, there were problems when the _ available. clearly, there were problems when the pandemic available. clearly, there were i problems when the pandemic hit available. clearly, there were - problems when the pandemic hit and i think this goes back to identifying the different sorts of pandemic that could hit you in planning for each one. i come back again and again it to this issue of asymptomatic