itself arrived, the uk still found itself in a situation where essential medical— in a situation where essential medical items such as the ventilators, stockpiles of ppe, how control, _ ventilators, stockpiles of ppe, how control, were not still readily available _ control, were not still readily available-— control, were not still readily available. clearly, there were problems _ available. clearly, there were problems when _ available. clearly, there were problems when the _ available. clearly, there were problems when the pandemic available. clearly, there were i problems when the pandemic hit available. clearly, there were - problems when the pandemic hit and i think this goes back to identifying the different sorts of pandemic that could hit you in planning for each one. i come back again and again it to this issue of asymptomatic transmission of an easily transmitted virus which is, yes, lethal but much lower than mers or ebola, and that's what we had, and if more time and more questions had been asked inside the system or challenging the system about that, then lots of consequences about ppe, about search capacity and nightingale hospitals and point to

the rest of it, a lot of consequences might have followed. 50 consequences might have followed. so will not only preparing for the wrong — will not only preparing for the wrong pandemic but the wrong questions were being asked? i think it's wron: questions were being asked? i think it's wrong were _ questions were being asked? i think it's wrong were preparing _ questions were being asked? i think it's wrong were preparing for - questions were being asked? i think it's wrong were preparing for the - it's wrong were preparing for the wrong pandemic, that could easily have been, the kids easily be a pandemic flu and it is good we prepared for that. but as oliver letwin and george osborne say, a long time was spent preparing for a pandemic that did muck what happened wrath and one that did. in retrospect, do you think as prime minister. _ in retrospect, do you think as prime minister, your government 's failure to plan— minister, your government 's failure to plan for— minister, your government 's failure to plan for economic impact on businesses and individuals played any role _ businesses and individuals played any role in — businesses and individuals played any role in the catastrophic loss of lives _ any role in the catastrophic loss of lives when — any role in the catastrophic loss of lives when the storm of covid—i9 arrived _ lives when the storm of covid—i9 arrived in — lives when the storm of covid—i9 arrived in the uk some four years after— arrived in the uk some four years after your— arrived in the uk some four years after your departure? arrived in the uk some four years afteryour departure? | arrived in the uk some four years after your departure? i am desperately _ after your departure? i am desperately sorry - after your departure? i am desperately sorry about. after your departure? i am | desperately sorry about the afteryour departure? i—n desperately sorry about the loss of life. so many people have lost people that are close to them, and there has been a lot of heartache, and obviously that continues. and

people obviously suffered in all sorts of ways through the pandemic, and that is why this inquiry is so important. i have tried to be as frank as i can, and as open as i can about the things my government did that helped put in place at the right architecture for looking at these threats, the horizon scanning, these threats, the horizon scanning, the units we put in place, the exercises we undertook, but i was also tried to be frank about the things that were missed. the thing i struggle with is why they were missed because, you know, it was not asking questions about asymptomatic transmission of an easily infectious disease with a certain level of vanity that we hadn't seen before but nonetheless might appear. that is, i think, but nonetheless might appear. that is, ithink, where but nonetheless might appear. that is, i think, where some of the difficulties of flow from. there is then the whole question of how the response is actually managed in practice, which i know the committee will come onto. i

practice, which i know the committee will come onto.— will come onto. i have no further questions- _ questions. thank you. thank you for questions. — thank you. thank you for your help, mr cameron — thank you. thank you for your help, mrcanreron i— thank you. thank you for your help, mr cameron. i am _ thank you. thank you for your help, mr cameron. i am being _ thank you. thank you for your help, | mr cameron. i am being encouraged thank you. thank you for your help, i mr cameron. i am being encouraged to break— mr cameron. i am being encouraged to break now— mr cameron. i am being encouraged to break now so_ mr cameron. i am being encouraged to break now so that _ mr cameron. i am being encouraged to break now so that the _ mr cameron. i am being encouraged to break now so that the stenographer - break now so that the stenographer can rest_ break now so that the stenographer can rest her— break now so that the stenographer can rest her work— break now so that the stenographer can rest her work fingers. _ break now so that the stenographer can rest her work fingers. i- break now so that the stenographer can rest her work fingers. i am - break now so that the stenographer can rest her work fingers. i am alsoi can rest her work fingers. i am also being _ can rest her work fingers. i am also being encouraged _ can rest her work fingers. i am also being encouraged to— can rest her work fingers. i am also being encouraged to resume - can rest her work fingers. i am also being encouraged to resume at- can rest her work fingers. i am also| being encouraged to resume at 1245 and then— being encouraged to resume at 1245 and then sit— being encouraged to resume at 1245 and then sit until— being encouraged to resume at 1245 and then sit until 1:30pm _ being encouraged to resume at 1245 and then sit until 1:30pm and - being encouraged to resume at 1245 and then sit until 1:30pm and then i and then sit until 1:30pm and then have lunch — and then sit until 1:30pm and then have lunch is _ and then sit until 1:30pm and then have lunch. is that _ and then sit until 1:30pm and then have lunch. is that going - and then sit until 1:30pm and then have lunch. is that going to - and then sit until 1:30pm and then have lunch. is that going to cause i have lunch. is that going to cause people _ have lunch. is that going to cause pebble serious— have lunch. is that going to cause people serious problems? - have lunch. is that going to cause people serious problems? if- have lunch. is that going to cause people serious problems? if it - people serious problems? if it doesn't. — people serious problems? if it doesn't, then— people serious problems? if it doesn't, then i— people serious problems? if it doesn't, then i will— people serious problems? if it doesn't, then i will return - people serious problems? if it doesn't, then i will return at l people serious problems? if it - doesn't, then i will return at 1245. thank— doesn't, then i will return at 1245. thank you. — doesn't, then i will return at 1245. thank you. my— doesn't, then i will return at 1245. thank you. my lady _ thank you, my lady. all _ thank you, my lady. all rise _ thank you, my lady. all rise.— thank you, my lady. all rise. , ., all rise. so, the inquiry there into the covid-19 _ all rise. so, the inquiry there into the covid-19 pandemic. _ all rise. so, the inquiry there into the covid-19 pandemic. the - all rise. so, the inquiry there into i the covid-19 pandemic. the previous the covid—19 pandemic. the previous premise, former pro—minister david cameron, was answering questions about the preparedness of the uk for that pandemic. that was essentially into parts. he was asked first of all about the various committees and the structure and the response and

the structure and the response and the advisory structure —— infrastructure available to respond to a pandemic. there he clearly was getting a fairly good response for the security council that was set up and so on, and he is robust and those responses. where clearly he identified a failing is that he said on more than one occasion the expectation and the focus was that there was the possibility of a flu pandemic, first of all that they had been a focus on sars, which is a coronavirus epidemic, and he also talked about ebola. but where he said there was a gap was the expectation surrounding a pandemic where the virus could be transmitted very easily, and indeed a symptomatically. he said that that had not really been part of the thinking. in terms of the national health service, he also said that

because that particular risk or possibility, that risk profile had not really been identified, hospitals were not provided with protection, ppe as it is called. they could, he said, had been provided with three months worth of ppe but because we were not talking, they were not talking at that time about that type of pandemic, they were not. coronavirus, one of the features of covid—19 was, of course, that it could be asymptomatic transmitted. he then went to talk about the state of the national health service in the face of austerity cuts. this after the financial crisis of 2007—2008, and the austerity that went on from 2010 for the few years after that, which inevitably meant cuts to the nhs. his defence was, he said that despite the fact that there were cuts to the nhs of the public satisfaction at that point was relatively high, and not only that,

he did not accept that there was a correlation between those cuts and the output of the nhs. therefore, trying to make the case, of course, that the national health service was not as a result of that austerity, ill prepared for the pandemic. let's now go to our help chris porter, jim reed. i have outlined the two areas. one he said repeatedly that they were looking at the wrong type of pandemic but defended the position of the nhs, apart from the absence of the nhs, apart from the absence of ppe in hospitals. would you make of ppe in hospitals. would you make of he said? . , of ppe in hospitals. would you make of he said? ., , , of he said? really interesting, those comments _ of he said? really interesting, those comments about - of he said? really interesting, | those comments about looking of he said? really interesting, - those comments about looking back at the wrong pandemic when they look at the wrong pandemic when they look at the pandemic preparedness for covid—19. mr cameron they're talking about when the pandemics were looked at, there was too much emphasis, in his words, on pandemic flu. they also talked about looking at other viruses like ebola, the one that

causes mers, another disease that spreads across southeast asia in 2013. he said they were looking at a virus, an outbreak which did not have significant amounts of a asymptomatic transmission. so why is it important question but why is it important that we looked at pandemic flu rather than coronavirus customer there are three main differences between flu and coronavirus. one is that we do have fairly decent vaccines for flu. they would have been needed to have been tweaked for the type of pandemic flu that was spreading at the time, but the idea was that could be done relatively quickly and we had a technology there. secondly, we had some decent treatments for flu, anti—virals and so on. they even use antibiotics on flu because flu tends to damage the lungs and airways, and that is how bacterial infection can get in. so use antibiotics on flu but you cannot use those on covid—19. but most importantly, and this is the

point mr cameron made again and again was this idea of asymptomatic transmission. so it flew in general is transmitted by people who are sick, so people who are coughing and sneezing with fevers. the way you deal with it is you tell that group of people you need to stay away from people, you need to stay at home. it was much more difficult to do that with covid—19 because we realised quite quickly in the pandemic in 2020 that it was being spread by people who did not have symptoms. some of the research shows you could be most infectious in that first wave of covid—19, before you had symptoms. some people didn't even get symptoms whatsoever of covid—19, and that of course changes quite dramatically the way you have to manage an infection. it brings in things like social distancing requirements, lock downs and so on, as a possibility of managing it because you could just not say to people who are sick, stay at home and that would control the spread. and that's the key point that david cameron is making in his evidence

today to this inquiry behind me. he also talked about the cuts to the national health service and suggested that, although there were cuts, that did not reduce the output of the nhs, and rejected that there was a direct correlation between input and output. that's what he was trying to say. is he on strong ground there?— trying to say. is he on strong ground there? this has been a criticism that _ ground there? this has been a criticism that has _ ground there? this has been a criticism that has been - ground there? this has been a criticism that has been made l ground there? this has been a - criticism that has been made towards the tail end of last week, and certainly this week, by organisations like the tuc, the british medical association, which represents doctors. it pins a lot of the blame which is too strong a world that a macro word, but a lot of responsible to on how prepared the health system and social care system were across the uk on those policies between 2010 and 2020, where there is a lot more pressure on public spending. mr cameron was asked about that directly today, and his argument is that they protected the public health budget at the time, the nhs day—to—day budget. his argument was that if you don't get the public finances right, your health budget is going to be damaged

anyway. he said the fellow scheme, he described that as a bold and effective policy, one that was only able to be put in place because we had a strong economy at the time —— furlough. critics will say that yes in the decade before covid—19, in england at least, day—to—day nhs spending was relatively protected. it went up or maybe not quite as quickly as some may have liked. but certainly, other elements of health and social care spending around that time did seek some quite significant cuts. for example, spending on social care, on care homes, on local authority funding for care homes, was cut back authority funding for care homes, was cutback quite significantly and i think the bma and the tuc have given the example of training of doctors, the amount of capital spending on things like hospital beds, saying that they were both affected by the pandemic. when you look at the numbers, certainly the uk and england in particular did go into the pandemic with far fewer

hospital beds and some other countries like germany and france. did you get the feeling from what he said that there was much attention paid to mers and sars, which are both coronavirus is because a mug to remind the audience, sars is a different form of a coronavirus that started spreading in the early part of 2000, so roughly 2002, 2003 across large parts of asia and canada eventually.— across large parts of asia and canada eventually. across large parts of asia and canada eventuall . ~ ,, ., , ., ., canada eventually. mers was another form of coronavirus _ canada eventually. mers was another form of coronavirus that _ canada eventually. mers was another form of coronavirus that spread - form of coronavirus that spread after contact with camels. it spread across the middle east in 2013, and also there was a large outbreak in south korea. we heard evidence last week from professor david heymann, who was the world health organization manager responsible for looking after that first sars outbreak in 2002. he said when he looked at it, the countries that were hit by that outbreak, said countries in asia, taiwan, singapore, china to an extent, and

certainly south korea with mers, he said they were far better protected when covid—19 hit. in particular, he pointed out contact tracing. this is when you start to see a virus spread through the population and being able to clampdown, work out which pockets of the population it is spreading in to isolate those people quite quickly. he pointed out that being able to do that far more effectively in places like south korea and singapore, because of that experience of mers. mr cameron was asked about that today and did say that there was an exercise that took place at the beginning of 2016 called exercise alice, but i think he accepted in his evidence that not all of the lessons from that exercise, which looked specifically at a potential outbreak of mers in the uk, but not all the lessons were properly learned from that. {iii properly learned from that. of course, one of the key turning points for covid—19 or seed of element of a vaccine. they did not

get into that for the simple reason that that was not during his time as prime minister.— prime minister. that's right, and that is something _ prime minister. that's right, and that is something that _ prime minister. that's right, and that is something that will - prime minister. that's right, and that is something that will be - that is something that will be looked at far later in the inquiry. because this inquiry is so wide—ranging, they had to divided into different sections or modules, if you will forgive the jargon. this one specifically looks at pandemic planning up to 2020, so it would not include, for example, something like the div element of vaccines. although that was touched on today because when you look at preparations for a flu pandemic, for example, one advantage of planning just forflu is example, one advantage of planning just for flu is that we had a very effective type of vaccine for different types of flu that had already been developed. that would have needed a lot of tweaking. in the event of a big outbreak of a different type of pandemic flu, a scientist would have had to tweak those vaccines to work for the most recent type of virus that was spreading to the population. the

argument is that could have been done quickly because we have the technology and the background and we knew how it worked. i think it is more difficult to develop a vaccine for something like covid—19. the speed at which they develop that vaccine, in under a year, the first person was getting their vaccine, that was remarkable. nevertheless, they worked elite macro word to a certain extent having to start from a place that is far behind where they would be if they were developing itjust forflu. i should point out as well that we have a very busy week of evidence here in this building behind me. we have had david cameron talking this morning, we have got sir chris wormald, a senior civil servant in the department of health who is giving evidence this afternoon. tomorrow we have oliver letwin, who was a cabinet minister through much of mr cameron was macro time in government, and george osborne, who was of course the chancellor of the exchequer. the finance minister through that time. and then we have ajeremy hunt, through that time. and then we have a jeremy hunt, who through that time. and then we have ajeremy hunt, who is now the current chancellor, the finance

minister of england and the uk. he will be giving evidence on wednesday. he was the serving health secretary from 2012—2018. and then a lot of pandemic planning exercises were carried out towards the tail end of 2016 after mr cameron �*s time in office, after he had resigned in the aftermath of the brexit referendum, but when jeremy the aftermath of the brexit referendum, but whenjeremy hunt the aftermath of the brexit referendum, but when jeremy hunt was referendum, but whenjeremy hunt was still in office as health referendum, but when jeremy hunt was still in office as health secretary. it will be interesting to see what he has to say. with these covid—19 finding is, what is going to be on as a result? so that was quite fascinating was when david cameron was talking about the planning for the pandemic, it was lumped together with other risks, with the possibility of terrorist attacks, for example. they see some sort of commonality between the sort of risks? he sort of commonality between the sort of risks? . ~ sort of commonality between the sort of risks? ., ~ ., sort of commonality between the sort of risks? ., ,, ., ., ., ,., sort of commonality between the sort of risks? ., ,, ., ., ., ., of risks? he talked a lot about how there's attendance _ of risks? he talked a lot about how

there's attendance in _ of risks? he talked a lot about how there's attendance in government. of risks? he talked a lot about how. there's attendance in government to focus on the short term, immediate issues and not look at the longer term threats. i think you said in his evidence that his government, he felt, did consider some of those longer term threats but i think he was making the point that the pressure at the time was all on looking at the latest terrorist attack, what was going on in the aftermath of 9/11 and so on a day for ten years after that, afghanistan, those particular threats and it becomes more difficult for politicians to step back from that, from those daily, monthly headlines you see in newspapers and look at the bigger threat. he gave the example, he addressed the g7 group of nations in 2015, a year before he stepped down from office, and he made the point at the time that the world as a whole and the rich nations of the

g7, needed to better consider the threat of a pandemic. he described a bowler at the time as a wake—up call that but he said in that speech to the g7 that the world it needs to consider the risk of a different type of pandemic, one which could be very destructive, one that could spread through aerosol droplets, coughing and sneezing, to infect millions of people. are actually quite a prescient warning he was making to the g7, the question he was asked in his testimony, were the right action really taken after that point? the right risks were identified, with the actions taken the? it goes back to that point that he thinks some of the right actions were being taken but there were too narrowly focused on the threat of pandemic flu and not on the possible threat of a completely new virus emerging that would have different

attributes, at different, concerning attributes. the one thing he was particularly concerned about is, it with hindsight, was asymptomatic transmission, because i changed everything, in his words, in terms of how this outbreak needed to be managed. you can lack tell people without sentence not to leave the house because that virus, the virus that causes covid, was being spread asymptomatically which meant managing it was a different situation and involve different techniques, including social isolation and the lockdown measures that proved so controversial in hindsight. he that proved so controversial in hindsiaht. ., , ., hindsight. he mentions flu quite a few times and _ hindsight. he mentions flu quite a few times and says _ hindsight. he mentions flu quite a few times and says that _ hindsight. he mentions flu quite a few times and says that the - hindsight. he mentions flu quite a few times and says that the uk i hindsight. he mentions flu quite a | few times and says that the uk has been subjected to quite a few nasty flu outbreaks and he was referring to his premiership. this is something we often forget, isn't it?

flu can be incredibly deadly, especially for those with a weakened immune system and the elderly and so on. through the pandemic, tens of thousands of people could die of flu in a bad flu year. one thing they brought up today was the 2009 swine flu pandemic. this was an outbreak of a different type of humanity in 2009, there was a lot of attention in it at the time, i lot of headlines on it, it caused many thousands of deaths. one of the things with swine flu, it never entered up being quite as bad as the public health officials and some politicians and commentators were talking about at the time. in particular, swine flu, although it could be transmitted asymptomatically, it was mainly transmitted from people who had the disease at the time. there was a type of anti—viral called tamiflu that was rolled out at fairly

significant expense across parts of the uk that will stockpiles are not used as much as people ever forecast it might be used. there was the implication there in the line of questioning that, was that therefore one of the issues that, it when it came to planning for a pandemic in the decade after 2009, some people felt candidate we overreacted in some ways mick on that the swine flu pandemic in 2009 cost too much money and maybe we can not quite meet all the ppe people were talking about in 2009 and did that change the attitudes of civil servants and politicians in the next ten years. they didn't quite answer that question in the session this morning but it is something like a typical monster in future sessions, especially when we speak to people like a senior civil servant in the department of and some people on

thursday, were due to hear from department of and some people on thursday, were due to hearfrom sir chris whitty answer patrick vallance, two people will be very familiar to anyone who thinks back to those long podium press conferences over covid. they were both in place in the years previous to covid as well, chris whitty took over as chief medical officer in 2019, so patrick vallance in 2017. will be interesting what they have to say about this more technical elements of pandemic planning and after mr cameron's claimed that we were unprepared for covid because were unprepared for covid because were just too focused on this flu pandemic that'd come along. he talked briefly about international cooperation and he had spoken quite openly about this and are quite high level and was saying he was going to raise it at the g7 summit at the time. and also implied that the

world health organization was very slow to react. i wonder what you thought about that? it slow to react. i wonder what you thought about that?— thought about that? it was interesting _ thought about that? it was interesting he _ thought about that? it was interesting he was - thought about that? it was interesting he was talking | thought about that? it was - interesting he was talking about that, there was evidence last week about the world health organization how it rated the uk's pandemic planning. in the decade before covid, 2020, the uk receive some glowing reports from the who about it's preparedness for a influenza pandemic. we heard about this in the middle of last week when they describe that is simply wrong. they say that the world health organization was just too quick to give that glowing report to the uk, and again, they brought up the idea that maybe planning in the uk was too focused on that pandemic flu threat. we talked about international cooperation and that came up in this session this morning, at the idea that other

countries were able to better respond to covid because they were able or learned the lessons from something like source virus and mers a couple of decades earlier. let’s a couple of decades earlier. let's turn to another— a couple of decades earlier. let's turn to another inquiry, - a couple of decades earlier. let's turn to another inquiry, mps will cast a judgment for a report from the parliamentary privilege committee which found the former prime minister borisjohnson lied to parliament about lockdown breaking parties. after reading the findings mrjohnson and nancy would immediately stand down from parliament. sarah campbelljoins us from outside westminster. get afternoon from _ from outside westminster. (lief afternoon from a very from outside westminster. get afternoon from a very sunny westminster on this, borisjohnson's 59th birthday. as you would think there, there is a debate you in the house of commons, this is a debate on whether to approve the parliamentary privileges committee report, which was published and found that the former prime minister

borisjohnson had misled the commons by repeatedly telling it after the partygate scandal emerged out of covid rules have been followed at all times a downing street. the report found that he had personal knowledge of preachers and he failed to proactively seek out authoritative assurances. you remember that the sanction put forward by the privileges committee was that they believed borisjohnson should have had a 90 day suspension from parliament. because it immediately resigns, that 90 day suspension effectively doesn't mean anything but they also voted that he should have his parliamentary pass withdrawn and that would happen if this committee report is approved later on today. there's are few things we don't know, we don't know one debate is exactly due to start, are possibly through 30 pm and hit one for any length of time until much later this evening. we also

don't know whether there will be a vote at the end of the report for the simple reason that we were quite pretty sure labour, the let downs, the snp, other parties won't vote to reject the report but guess return to the conservative party, because there that may want to vote against there that may want to vote against the committee report, whether they will not hearing in mind that the borisjohnson has asked people don't are against the report, that will be open to question. we don't yet know whether there will be a vote. if members turn up they can vote anywhere they like or abstain it, so it's unclear what will happen on that front. what you will hear is the right honourable harriet harman, the right honourable harriet harman, the chair of the privileges committee, and she will speak and give a statement to the house, the first in the privileges committee has given their reaction in person

it to the report and we knew to be vitriolic report response from boris johnson when he released that resignation statement and accuse them of being a kangaroo court and said this was a witch hunt. there will be plenty to watch and plenty of interest. i havejust will be plenty to watch and plenty of interest. i have just spoken to a biographer of borisjohnson who know so well who believes that he will be at home watching the ongoing proceedings this afternoon along with a fair few other people, i should imagine. as i say, boris johnson's 59th birthday today. haifa johnson's 59th birthday today. now time for the — johnson's 59th birthday today. now time for the weather. not quite as warm out there is the start of last week but this week will still bring the spells of warm sunshine, temperature still above the average for the time of year. with that, a scattering of heavy downpours another satellite picture, a lot of cloud pushed its way northwards yesterday, last night, bringing heavy rain. more cloud and rain waiting to be self and even in

between, we have some sunshine with a scattering of heavy showers to go through northern ireland in the rest of the afternoon with a could be enough rain to cause disruption. temperatures ranging from 16 in stornoway to 24 in london and 25 in hull and norwich. through this evening and tonight, some rain continuing in the far north of scotland, elsewhere coming on showers fading but this area of thundery rain will continue to the midlands by the end of the night. a humid night in prospect for some, up to 15 degrees, such tonight, a soggy start across parts of england and wales, district of wet weather driving northwards, to be thunder and lightning invited within their and lightning invited within their and some particularly wet conditions for a time across eastern england, giving some localised surface flooding and poor conditions on the

road. elsewhere, some spells of sunshine but showers and thunderstorms erupting and quite a humid feel in the south of the uk, up humid feel in the south of the uk, up to 26 degrees quite likely. tuesday night, that system will push northwards and pressure will slowly start to build from the south. it will be a slow process, at some showers around on wednesday and some heavy but more in the way of dry weather, some spells of sunshine and temperatures for most up to 25 degrees. by the end of the weekend, pressure building and more strongly. frontal systems bringing chances of showers at times, particularly towards the northwest. temperatures will begin to climb and some southern areas through the week could see highs of 30 degrees.

today at one...mps are about to debate the commons

report which said borisjohnson lied about lockdown parties in downing street. the former prime minister resigned as an mp after the report but he claims he's been the victim of a kangaroo court. it of a kangaroo court. isn't yet clear whether there will it isn't yet clear whether there will be a