you lead counselfor the inquiry. you were also _ lead counselfor the inquiry. you were also chair— lead counselfor the inquiry. you were also chair of— lead counsel for the inquiry. um, were also chair of the lead counsel for the inquiry. mm were also chair of the health lead counsel for the inquiry. for. were also chair of the health and social care select committee which at that point, may be a few days earlier or afterwards, you became chancellor of the exchequer. in which post you have continued until the present day. which post you have continued until the present day-— the present day. correct. chancellor, _ the present day. correct. chancellor, as _ the present day. correct. chancellor, as secretary| the present day. correct. i chancellor, as secretary of the present day. correct. - chancellor, as secretary of state for the department of health and then the department of health and social care, it is obvious that you were keenly aware of the purgation is placed on you as secretary of state in relation to the provision of health care including the obligations associated with the dh

and dhc, being the lead government department for pandemic risk, being a health emergency.— department for pandemic risk, being a health emergency.- it - department for pandemic risk, being a health emergency.- it is i a health emergency. correct. it is clear from — a health emergency. correct. it is clear from the _ a health emergency. correct. it is clear from the documents - a health emergency. correct. it is clear from the documents before | a health emergency. correct. it is. clear from the documents before the inquiry that the departmental risk register, the paperwork and guidance dating to the discharge by your department of its role as lead government department, the legal obligation placed on the department by virtue of being a category one responder of the civil contingencies act 2004 and its supervision of a number of bodies but most importantly the pandemic influenza preparedness board and the

co—chairing of the pandemic flu readiness board. the pandemic planning late at the heart of your department's work.— planning late at the heart of your department's work. correct. iwant to ask you — department's work. correct. iwant to ask you in _ department's work. correct. iwant to ask you in light _ department's work. correct. iwant to ask you in light of _ department's work. correct. iwant to ask you in light of that - department's work. correct. iwant to ask you in light of that about. to ask you in light of that about exercise — to ask you in light of that about exercise sickness which was in october— exercise sickness which was in october 2016 —— signus. exercise sickness which was in 0ctober2016 —— signus. it exercise sickness which was in october 2016 —— signus. it was an exercise _ october 2016 —— signus. it was an exercise which was reported upon in july of— exercise which was reported upon in july of 2017 — exercise which was reported upon in july of 2017 the year after it happened, and you were a cause secretary— happened, and you were a cause secretary of state at the time. —— of course — secretary of state at the time. —— of course to _ secretary of state at the time. —— of course. to what extent do you recall— of course. to what extent do you recall the — of course. to what extent do you recall the significance of the exercise _ recall the significance of the exercise or the recommendations that came from _ exercise or the recommendations that came from it? | exercise or the recommendations that came from it?— came from it? i recall taking part in the exercise _ came from it? i recall taking part in the exercise extremely - came from it? i recall taking part in the exercise extremely well, l in the exercise extremely well, and... ~ , ., ,

in the exercise extremely well, and... ~ , ., in the exercise extremely well, and..._ because| in the exercise extremely well, | and..._ because it in the exercise extremely well, - and. . ._ because it was and... why was that? because it was not “ust a and... why was that? because it was notjust a significant _ and... why was that? because it was notjust a significant chunk _ and... why was that? because it was notjust a significant chunk of - and... why was that? because it was notjust a significant chunk of time i notjust a significant chunk of time taken out of my diary but because something quite traumatic happened in the course of the exercise even though it was only an exercise which caused me to stop the exercise. i was basically asked in the course of the exercise to sanction the emptying of all the intensive care beds in the country leading to the death of numerous people in those intensive care beds on the grounds that the nursing requirement for those people in intensive care was so big because each intensive care bed needed three or four nurses to look after one patient, that those nurses could spend, save more lives if they operated in the community. this was hypothetical? yes.

if they operated in the community. this was hypothetical?— this was hypothetical? yes. so effectively _ this was hypothetical? yes. so effectively l — this was hypothetical? yes. so effectively i was _ this was hypothetical? yes. so effectively i was being - this was hypothetical? yes. so effectively i was being asked . this was hypothetical? yes. so| effectively i was being asked to flick a switch which would have led to instant deaths. i was not prepared to do that. rightly or wrongly, you can argue it in different ways, but for the greatest good, the greatest number, but i was not prepared to do it, and i think for the people, it was quite a controversial moment, but grow thankfully it was only an exercise, but myjudgment was that any pandemic scenario, if you were asking a human being and we are human beings, to make a decision like that, it was fraught with risk and danger and like that, it was fraught with risk and dangerand i like that, it was fraught with risk and danger and i would have felt it was difficult to take that decision,

so we developed new protocols as a result of that which meant i think if that situation happened in real life, the secretary of state would not be asked to make that decision. you made it plain it was an intolerable decision to have to make and there _ intolerable decision to have to make and there had to be an alternative course _ and there had to be an alternative course and — and there had to be an alternative course and you directed that the protocols — course and you directed that the protocols be drawn up to deal with the possibility?— the possibility? correct. you do have to take — the possibility? correct. you do have to take those _ the possibility? correct. you do have to take those decisions . the possibility? correct. you do l have to take those decisions one the possibility? correct. you do - have to take those decisions one way or another when there is limited capacity and when we saw the covid it seems in lombardy, they were heart—wrenching scenes of italian doctors saying they were being asked to play god because the people they were depriving other bed would inevitably die. it is not that you cannot duck those decisions, but what i felt was inappropriate to make those decisions are such a long way away from the front line and i thought those decisions, if they

need to be taken, they need to be taken by people familiar with what is going on with individual patients. i'm not suggesting that they are not incredibly difficult decisions you have to make but it felt too clinical to me that that should be done in that way. almost like a regular ministerial decision, this is what you do at this point. but the human consequences were so striking. it but the human consequences were so strikinu. , ., ., ,_,, ., striking. it is out of the scope of the areas _ striking. it is out of the scope of the areas we — striking. it is out of the scope of the areas we have _ striking. it is out of the scope of the areas we have asked - striking. it is out of the scope of the areas we have asked you - striking. it is out of the scope of the areas we have asked you to | the areas we have asked you to assist _ the areas we have asked you to assist with, but in part as a result of that— assist with, but in part as a result of that terrible conundrum that you were faced — of that terrible conundrum that you were faced with, was there put in place _ were faced with, was there put in place a _ were faced with, was there put in place a body called the moral and ethnic— place a body called the moral and ethnic advisory group to deal with the worst— ethnic advisory group to deal with the worst types of moral and ethical decisions _ the worst types of moral and ethical decisions which might confront clinical— decisions which might confront clinical staff and administrators in the event — clinical staff and administrators in the event of a pandemic? that may

well have been _ the event of a pandemic? that may well have been what _ the event of a pandemic? that may well have been what happened - the event of a pandemic? that may well have been what happened but| the event of a pandemic? that may| well have been what happened but i was not aware that was the consequence but what i was aware of was the dreadful euphemism that was used to describe that decision. described as population triage which was a way of saying making life and death decisions about large numbers of people in one go.— of people in one go. there was no doubt in your— of people in one go. there was no doubt in your mind _ of people in one go. there was no doubt in your mind as _ of people in one go. there was no doubt in your mind as to - of people in one go. there was no doubt in your mind as to the - doubt in your mind as to the significance of exercise signus which — significance of exercise signus which was a cross government exercise — which was a cross government exercise and it was commissioned by your department, then the department of health, _ your department, then the department of health, to test the response of the uk _ of health, to test the response of the uk to— of health, to test the response of the uk to a series pandemic —— serious — the uk to a series pandemic —— serious pandemic influenza. do you recall— serious pandemic influenza. do you recall what— serious pandemic influenza. do you recall what the general outcome was of signus? _ recall what the general outcome was of signus? | recall what the general outcome was of si . nus? ., recall what the general outcome was of sirnus? ., ., _ ~ of signus? i do. i would say i think there is quite _ of signus? i do. i would say i think there is quite a _ of signus? i do. i would say i think there is quite a big _ there is quite a big misunderstanding about signus which is that as it was described with me,

it was not an exercise which was to examine the preparedness for pandemic influenza, it was to establish how good the uk, how well the uk would cope with the situation in which pandemic influenza had already taken hold so the starting point of the operation was we had already had between 200 and 400,000 fatalities and 1.2 million people infected with pandemic flu and so it was to see how our systems would copein was to see how our systems would cope in that state of pressure. you may well want to talk about the group thing but this was the first example looking back with the benefit of hindsight, this is not what i thought at the time, and with retrospect i wish i had challenged it, but there were no questions asked of how we stop it getting to the stage of 200—400,000 fatalities. it was an assumption that pandemic

flu would spread like wildfire and you pretty much could not stop it, and this was how would the system copein and this was how would the system cope in that extreme situation. 50 thatis cope in that extreme situation. 50 that is why when you read through the report of the exercise, there was talk about mortuary capacity and how you would deal with so many dead bodies. it was that kind of thing, and as far as the nhs was concerned, how you deal with so many members of staff being off sick even if not fatally off sick. haste staff being off sick even if not fatally off sick.— staff being off sick even if not fatall off sick. ~ . ., ,., . ,, fatally off sick. we will come back to this later- _ fatally off sick. we will come back to this later. on _ fatally off sick. we will come back to this later. on the _ fatally off sick. we will come back to this later. on the issue - fatally off sick. we will come back to this later. on the issue of- to this later. 0n the issue of groupthink, it may not have had its genesis— groupthink, it may not have had its genesis in— groupthink, it may not have had its genesis in the exercise which made assumptions about numbers of deaths, and it— assumptions about numbers of deaths, and it nray— assumptions about numbers of deaths, and it may have had its genesis in the risk— and it may have had its genesis in the risk assessment process which made _ the risk assessment process which made assumptions about huge numbers of fatalities _ made assumptions about huge numbers of fatalities and it may have had its genesis in the integrated

management structure for dealing with civil— management structure for dealing with civil contingencies and emergencies which again perhaps failed _ emergencies which again perhaps failed to— emergencies which again perhaps failed to focus on preventing sufficiently the devastating consequences as opposed to dealing with them _ consequences as opposed to dealing with them. but exercise signus wrote was a _ with them. but exercise signus wrote was a seminal moment because it was designed _ was a seminal moment because it was designed to— was a seminal moment because it was designed to test the uk structures for dealing with a severe pandemic and no _ for dealing with a severe pandemic and no doubt you and your department and no doubt you and your department and yourself, but you have this postal— and yourself, but you have this postal involvement in the exercise, were _ postal involvement in the exercise, were concerned about the conclusions of the _ were concerned about the conclusions of the exercise. do you recall prior to the _ of the exercise. do you recall prior to the report being published into exercise _ to the report being published into exercise signus, internally, i should— exercise signus, internally, i should say, july 2017, whether you

were _ should say, july 2017, whether you were briefed as to the general conclusions of signus? | were briefed as to the general conclusions of signus?- conclusions of signus? i don't recall any _ conclusions of signus? i don't recall any particular _ conclusions of signus? i don't recall any particular briefing l conclusions of signus? i don't l recall any particular briefing but conclusions of signus? i don't i recall any particular briefing but i had a very close and productive working relationship with dame sally davies and i'm sure she would have talked to me. we davies and i'm sure she would have talked to me— talked to me. we have heard her evidence- _ talked to me. we have heard her evidence- in _ talked to me. we have heard her evidence. in some _ talked to me. we have heard her evidence. in some ways - talked to me. we have heard her evidence. in some ways i - talked to me. we have heard her| evidence. in some ways i worried about the fact — evidence. in some ways i worried about the fact i _ evidence. in some ways i worried about the fact i was _ evidence. in some ways i worried about the fact i was not - evidence. in some ways i worried about the fact i was not preparedj evidence. in some ways i worried i about the fact i was not prepared to flick the switch, that i had let the side down in terms of the exercise because i think i felt there was an expectation that they would need someone to make those decisions so i'm sure we would have had a dialogue about it.— i'm sure we would have had a dialogue about it. you say that insirhts dialogue about it. you say that insights from _ dialogue about it. you say that insights from the _ dialogue about it. you say that insights from the exercise - dialogue about it. you say that insights from the exercise and | dialogue about it. you say that i insights from the exercise and its recommendations were made known to you. recommendations were made known to you the _ recommendations were made known to you. the point i want to ask you to focus _ you. the point i want to ask you to focus on. — you. the point i want to ask you to focus on, however, is to what extent were _ focus on, however, is to what extent were you _ focus on, however, is to what extent were you aware of the insights on the recommendations in advance of

the recommendations in advance of the formal— the recommendations in advance of the formal report being made available. there is a considerable interregnum between the exercise and the report— interregnum between the exercise and the report becoming available in july. _ the report becoming available in july. i— the report becoming available in jul . ., , ., ., , ., july. i doubt i would have been made aware and l — july. i doubt i would have been made aware and i think— july. i doubt i would have been made aware and i think it _ july. i doubt i would have been made aware and i think it would _ july. i doubt i would have been made aware and i think it would have - july. i doubt i would have been made aware and i think it would have been| aware and i think it would have been produced at arms length from me and then i would have seen it. you attended _ then i would have seen it. you attended a _ then i would have seen it. you attended a meeting _ then i would have seen it. you attended a meeting of a committee which _ attended a meeting of a committee which was _ attended a meeting of a committee which was then in place called the national— which was then in place called the national security council, threats, hazards _ national security council, threats, hazards and resilience contingency ministerial committee. in february 2017. _ ministerial committee. in february 2017, that— ministerial committee. in february 2017, that was, so after signus but before _ 2017, that was, so after signus but before the — 2017, that was, so after signus but before the report, and it was a meeting — before the report, and it was a meeting chaired by the then prime minister— meeting chaired by the then prime minister theresa may. may we have that on— minister theresa may. may we have that on the — minister theresa may. may we have that on the screen?

there we are. those are the minutes of the _ there we are. those are the minutes of the meeting held in the cabinet room _ of the meeting held in the cabinet room at _ of the meeting held in the cabinet room at numberten of the meeting held in the cabinet room at number ten on that day at tpm with — room at number ten on that day at tpm with the then prime minister in the chair~ _ tpm with the then prime minister in the chair~ -- — tpm with the then prime minister in the chair. —— two o'clock in the afternoon _ the chair. —— two o'clock in the afternoon. your name is at the bottom — afternoon. your name is at the bottom right—hand corner as the secretary — bottom right—hand corner as the secretary of state for health. if we io secretary of state for health. if we go over— secretary of state for health. if we go over the page, please, you can see the _ go over the page, please, you can see the remainder of those who attended — see the remainder of those who attended and on the six page... the second _ attended and on the six page... the second paragraph, the secretary of state _ second paragraph, the secretary of state for— second paragraph, the secretary of state for health said that contrary to the _ state for health said that contrary to the image presented in the media, the nhs _ to the image presented in the media, the nhs was extremely good at responding to emergencies. studio: we are following the chancellorjeremy hunt being questioned as part of the covid

inquiry about his time when he was the secretary of state for health, in particular about an exercise that took place in 2016 that looked at intensive scenarios. it was a hypothetical exercise and jeremy hunt was talking about how the exercise influenced pandemic scenario developments and protocols going forward. he will continue giving evidence in the next hour or so and earlier we saw the deputy prime minister oliver dowd and also giving evidence. if you want to follow this you can do so on our website. or on the bbc news app. four viewers on bbc news we are going tojoin my four viewers on bbc news we are going tojoin my four viewers on bbc news we are going to join my colleague. four viewers on bbc news we are going tojoin my colleague. —— for viewers. you can get more on the in the search for a submersible covid inquiry on the website. live from london, this is bbc news.

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