morning. welcome to the nation's - morning. welcome to the nation's phone _ - morning. welcome to the nation's phone in. _ from 10:00 — professor sir chris whitty, england's chief medical officer, is set to appear at the covid inquiry and answer questions about the country's response to the pandemic. we'll bring you that live. but from 9:00, is it right to raise rates? at noon the bank of england is expected to announce its raising interest rates for a 13th consecutive time. june 2023 elected to be at least 4.75, maybe 5%. but higher rates means further pain for homeowners — especially if you're on a tracker mortgage or coming to the end of a fixed deal. the so—called "mortgage bomb" has become a huge issue for the government and the bank. the institute for fiscal studies warns that higher rates mean 1.4 million mortgage holders could lose a fifth of their disposable income.

so what do you think to the strategy? is there any other option? what impact will it have on you? is it right to raise rates? what do you think? get in touch. here is the news. the bank of england is expected to raise interest rates again at midday — for the thirteenth time in a row. it's trying to curb rising prices after figures published yesterday showed that inflation stalled last month at 8.7%. a specialist robot is on its way to the north atlantic — to help with the search for a missing submersible with five people on board. the titan sub was on its way to see the titanic wreck. estimates suggest oxygen could run

out later this morning. bbc analysis shows the uk had one of the worst increases in death rates of major european economies during the covid pandemic. it was 5% higher in the three years after march 2020 — compared with the previous five years. services are taking places across the country to mark 75 years since caribbean migrants on the ship, empire windrush, arrived in the uk. hundreds have faced deportation because of a failure to properly record their right to live here. the home office says it's paid or offered over £75 million in compensation. is it right to raise rates? for

some, the rise will be massive, almost 1.4 million 600 90,000 head in the under 40s particularly hard, more of their income involved. they will see disposable income fall by over 20%, march 20 22—23, but when it comes to inflation, according to the former chancellor if it is not hurting it is not working. he famously said it is not regret so much astray. —— as dread. richard murphy is with us, and economicjustice campaigner, professor of accounting at sheffield university. welcome back. sam is an economist writes for the telegraph,

we have kevin the bbc�*s cost of living corresponding, andrew, peter... are the right to raise rates? 1 peter... are the right to raise rates? ~ , peter... are the right to raise rates? ~' , ., �* ., . rates? i think they don't have much of a choice — rates? i think they don't have much of a choice at _ rates? i think they don't have much of a choice at this _ rates? i think they don't have much of a choice at this point. _ rates? i think they don't have much of a choice at this point. there - rates? i think they don't have much of a choice at this point. there is i of a choice at this point. there is a danger they are going to overshoot and keep correcting for past inflation beyond the point at which it is useful, but i think they're busily doing this at this point to restore some of the credibility they've lost with actions in late 2021-22. ., , they've lost with actions in late 2021-22. a, y 2021-22. how did they lose credibility? _ 2021-22. how did they lose credibility? you _ 2021-22. how did they lose credibility? you can - 2021-22. how did they lose credibility? you can think. 2021-22. how did they lose | credibility? you can think of inflation is _ credibility? you can think of inflation is coming - credibility? you can think of inflation is coming in - credibility? you can think of inflation is coming in two i credibility? you can think of- inflation is coming in two parts, the part which is what people expect to have been, people bacon their expectations based on those and depart on random shocks to the economy, they war in ukraine, kovar that would drive inflation up. what the bank doesn't want to do is have expectation that inflation will take

off, and there is basically an argument that says in late 2021, 2022, is the sort of inflation is coming down the line they were quite slow to raise interest rates in the initial period, let inflation to call and now they've been saying this all tiny think it will come down again in a housing, and now they are overstating about the other way and try to make sure people know they are serious about this —— over steering. and interest rates are now at the point where it could be more harmful than useful. you at the point where it could be more harmful than useful.— at the point where it could be more harmful than useful. you get this in the ress harmful than useful. you get this in the press at — harmful than useful. you get this in the press at the _ harmful than useful. you get this in the press at the moment, - harmful than useful. you get this in the press at the moment, creeping| the press at the moment, creeping criticism of the bank of england, some might say is that a bit of buckpassing? what about people watching or listening now who are terrified by all this? you heard the stats from the iss, this is going to be crippling for them.— stats from the iss, this is going to be crippling for them. yeah, that is how interest _ be crippling for them. yeah, that is how interest rate _ be crippling for them. yeah, that is how interest rate rises _ be crippling for them. yeah, that is how interest rate rises work, - be crippling for them. yeah, that is how interest rate rises work, you . how interest rate rises work, you are taking money out of the economy, out of circulation and one of the

ways it's happened, one of the transmission mechanisms... having less disposable income. in a way thatis less disposable income. in a way that is the effect the bank is trying to achieve through interest rate rises, trying to cool the economy down to take inflation back down again. it is deeply regrettable and comes back to the point again, which is that perhaps if we had had action earlier, we may not be in the situation where we have these great rises now. i, situation where we have these great rises now. . i, i, rises now. there are alternative views, rises now. there are alternative views. are _ rises now. there are alternative views. are the _ rises now. there are alternative views, are the right _ rises now. there are alternative views, are the right to - rises now. there are alternative views, are the right to raise - rises now. there are alternative i views, are the right to raise rates? no, they are not right. they are doing _ no, they are not right. they are doing exactly the wrong thing if they raise rates today. if it was right _ they raise rates today. if it was right to — they raise rates today. if it was right to raise rates we would not be at the _ right to raise rates we would not be at the point — right to raise rates we would not be at the point we are. rates would have _ at the point we are. rates would have begun to work by now. we know there _ have begun to work by now. we know there are _ have begun to work by now. we know there are lags between the impact of raising _ there are lags between the impact of raising rates and getting the benefits, supposed benefits of doing so. benefits, supposed benefits of doing s0~ but _ benefits, supposed benefits of doing so. but clearly that isn't happening. let's also be clear, by

now the _ happening. let's also be clear, by now the impacts of the war in ukraine — now the impacts of the war in ukraine are waiting out inflation, the cover— ukraine are waiting out inflation, the cover impact is gone and nobody thinks _ the cover impact is gone and nobody thinks that— the cover impact is gone and nobody thinks that money from 2020 because this inflation, so what is causing it now? — this inflation, so what is causing it now? my— this inflation, so what is causing it now? my suggestion is the bank of england _ it now? my suggestion is the bank of england is— it now? my suggestion is the bank of england is actually now causing our inflation _ england is actually now causing our inflation it— england is actually now causing our inflation. it is the very fact that they— inflation. it is the very fact that they are — inflation. it is the very fact that they are putting up interest rates that is— they are putting up interest rates that is actually now causing inflation. but their models don't allow— inflation. but their models don't allow for— inflation. but their models don't allow for that. why is it causing inflation? — allow for that. why is it causing inflation? because of course inflation _ inflation? because of course inflation is a measure of the increase _ inflation is a measure of the increase in prices. and they are increasing — increase in prices. and they are increasing the price of money. increasing _ increasing the price of money. increasing the price of money dead, the last— increasing the price of money dead, the last thing we had serious inflation _ the last thing we had serious inflation back in the 1970s and i was at — inflation back in the 1970s and i was at university in the 70s, i remember— was at university in the 70s, i remember it, at that point it had little _ remember it, at that point it had little impact on consumer prices but now it _ little impact on consumer prices but now it has _ little impact on consumer prices but now it has an enormous impact on consumer— now it has an enormous impact on consumer prices. for example, it picks— consumer prices. for example, it picks up— consumer prices. for example, it picks on the— consumer prices. for example, it picks up the price of rents and vast number_ picks up the price of rents and vast number of— picks up the price of rents and vast number of people in this country now rent and _ number of people in this country now rent and don't rent from councils, which _ rent and don't rent from councils, which they— rent and don't rent from councils, which they did in the 70s, which is

only inflation example before now, really _ only inflation example before now, really. instead they rent with private — really. instead they rent with private landlords, who are pushing up private landlords, who are pushing up rents _ private landlords, who are pushing up rents. what are people who are selling _ up rents. what are people who are selling cars — up rents. what are people who are selling cars then? pushing up the price _ selling cars then? pushing up the price of— selling cars then? pushing up the price of car— selling cars then? pushing up the price of car leases, 90% of cars sold _ price of car leases, 90% of cars sold in— price of car leases, 90% of cars sold in leases, so the interest cost of the _ sold in leases, so the interest cost of the bank— sold in leases, so the interest cost of the bank of england is creating is running — of the bank of england is creating is running straight through into our cost of— is running straight through into our cost of living and it is through businesses, they are passing on costsi _ businesses, they are passing on costs. the — businesses, they are passing on costs, the cost of interest rate rises _ costs, the cost of interest rate rises much _ costs, the cost of interest rate rises much bigger to many companies than the _ rises much bigger to many companies than the cost of which rice is present— than the cost of which rice is present and where we hear economy saying _ present and where we hear economy saying we _ present and where we hear economy saying we have no choices, a wage set price _ saying we have no choices, a wage set price spiral, there is no evidence _ set price spiral, there is no evidence of that we are no wages behind _ evidence of that we are no wages behind inflation, except in finance and banking where they are ahead, but everywhere else they are behind, and instead _ but everywhere else they are behind, and instead what we've got this and interest— and instead what we've got this and interest price spiral, interest rates — interest price spiral, interest rates are _ interest price spiral, interest rates are rightly forcing up prices. the bank— rates are rightly forcing up prices. the bank of england is carrying the very problem they are trying to solve _

very problem they are trying to solve and — very problem they are trying to solve and are creating a recession by doing _ solve and are creating a recession by doing it. — solve and are creating a recession by doing it, any nutshell. in a nutshell. _ by doing it, any nutshell. in a nutshell, the _ by doing it, any nutshell. in a nutshell, the bank— by doing it, any nutshell. in a nutshell, the bank of - by doing it, any nutshell. i�*i — nutshell, the bank of england's fault. we will come to other collars and a second. a call to arms for our listeners and viewers, what impact will this have on you? it is there an alternative? you've heard some alternative views. sam, please come back on richard's point, that the bank of there at the very heart of causing this. if bank of there at the very heart of causing this-— bank of there at the very heart of causing this. if you want to blame the bank causing this. if you want to blame the ltank of _ causing this. if you want to blame the bank of england _ causing this. if you want to blame the bank of england for— causing this. if you want to blame the bank of england for causing . causing this. if you want to blame the bank of england for causing it| the bank of england for causing it will be lower interest rates earlier on, the lag between monetary and affecting the real economy, takes around 12—24 months, that's what we see consistently in the data. i don't believe that this is the rise in interest rates putting up prices and i think if you look at the period over 2021—22, prices start to rise quite significant for interest rates catch up... flan rise quite significant for interest rates catch up. . ._ rates catch up... can i point out the interest _ rates catch up... can i point out the interest rates _ rates catch up... can i point out

the interest rates were - rates catch up... can i point out the interest rates were not, i the interest rates were not, inflation _ the interest rates were not, inflation was not at that point caused — inflation was not at that point caused by anything that interest rates _ caused by anything that interest rates could impact because it was caused _ rates could impact because it was caused by— rates could impact because it was caused by covid and then the war in ukraine, _ caused by covid and then the war in ukraine, uk— caused by covid and then the war in ukraine, uk interest rates have no impact _ ukraine, uk interest rates have no impact on — ukraine, uk interest rates have no impact on that at all, precisely none — impact on that at all, precisely none. therefore to say was the fault of the _ none. therefore to say was the fault of the bank— none. therefore to say was the fault of the bank of england for not putting — of the bank of england for not putting up rates at that point is wrong, — putting up rates at that point is wrong, because putting up rates could _ wrong, because putting up rates could not— wrong, because putting up rates could not have solved inflation at that point — could not have solved inflation at that point. this isjust pure economics, if i can be honest. you're — economics, if i can be honest. you're not _ economics, if i can be honest. you're not looking at the rate because — you're not looking at the rate because of the inflation, therefore you are _ because of the inflation, therefore you are not — because of the inflation, therefore you are not looking at the rate cured — you are not looking at the rate cured of— you are not looking at the rate cured of inflation by seeing what you're _ cured of inflation by seeing what you're doing, i'm sorry but ijust don't _ you're doing, i'm sorry but ijust don't agree _ you're doing, i'm sorry but ijust don't agree with you. just you're doing, i'm sorry but i “ust don't agree with you.i don't agree with you. just to be clear, don't agree with you. just to be clear. your _ don't agree with you. just to be clear. your of — don't agree with you. just to be clear, your of view _ don't agree with you. just to be clear, your of view is _ don't agree with you. just to be clear, your of view is that i don't agree with you. just to be i clear, your of view is that interest rates... �* , ., ., rates... i'm sorry, i did not hear that. i rates... i'm sorry, i did not hear that- i am _ rates... i'm sorry, i did not hear that. i am confused _ rates... i'm sorry, i did not hear that. i am confused here. i'm i rates... i'm sorry, i did not hear- that. i am confused here. i'm aware of very few — that. i am confused here. i'm aware of very few macroeconomic - that. i am confused here. i'm aware of very few macroeconomic models | that. i am confused here. i'm aware i of very few macroeconomic models in which raising interest rates raises inflation and lowering decreases and you can see consistently... mumbles.

this is the view of macroeconomic bliss _ this is the view of macroeconomic bliss be _ this is the view of macroeconomic bliss be totally honest, if you understand macroeconomics you understand macroeconomics you understand that most of them do not have money in them, macro economic commentators not reflecting this because — commentators not reflecting this because of inflation is not very useful— because of inflation is not very useful because macroeconomics works on the _ useful because macroeconomics works on the basis _ useful because macroeconomics works on the basis of barter economies and that is— on the basis of barter economies and that is not— on the basis of barter economies and that is not a — on the basis of barter economies and that is not a valid argument in itself — that is not a valid argument in itself. let's look at the reality of this _ itself. let's look at the reality of this, the — itself. let's look at the reality of this, the reality of this is that inflation _ this, the reality of this is that inflation was caused by external events — inflation was caused by external events in— inflation was caused by external events in the bank of england agree with that, _ events in the bank of england agree with that, and for once i agree with them _ with that, and for once i agree with them, but — with that, and for once i agree with them, but they put up interest rates for a long _ them, but they put up interest rates fora longtime, it has not worked herei _ fora longtime, it has not worked here, and — fora longtime, it has not worked here, and has not worked here because — here, and has not worked here because of— here, and has not worked here because of the structure of the uk economy— because of the structure of the uk economy which does appear to be different— economy which does appear to be different from other places.. for example. — different from other places.. for example, we have variable rate mortgages and our rental market is heavily— mortgages and our rental market is heavily linked to interest rates, that's— heavily linked to interest rates, that's not — heavily linked to interest rates, that's not true in the usa or germany _ that's not true in the usa or germany. in parts of europe. so the structural— germany. in parts of europe. so the structural nature of the uk economy doesn't _ structural nature of the uk economy doesn't follow the textbooks, but the reality is the textbooks have all been — the reality is the textbooks have all been wrong as they have been on banking _ all been wrong as they have been on banking are — all been wrong as they have been on banking are so many other issues over— banking are so many other issues over the years, what we should be

doing _ over the years, what we should be doing is— over the years, what we should be doing is looking at the reality, the reality_ doing is looking at the reality, the reality is— doing is looking at the reality, the reality is we've had piles of interest— reality is we've had piles of interest rate rises, 4.4% already, probably— interest rate rises, 4.4% already, probably 4.9% by the end of today and none — probably 4.9% by the end of today and none of those who worked on none of them _ and none of those who worked on none of them are _ and none of those who worked on none of them are going to work, they are creating _ of them are going to work, they are creating inflation. let's... gentlemen, thank you both very much. sam and richard. very interesting. and kevin, bbc cost of living corresponding, i'll be right with you. jack, peterand corresponding, i'll be right with you. jack, peter and andrew. jack, what do you think? i’ire you. jack, peter and andrew. jack, what do you think?— you. jack, peter and andrew. jack, what do you think? i've never heard such rubbish — what do you think? i've never heard such rubbish talked _ what do you think? i've never heard such rubbish talked in _ what do you think? i've never heard such rubbish talked in all— what do you think? i've never heard such rubbish talked in all my - what do you think? i've never heard such rubbish talked in all my life. i such rubbish talked in all my life. what _ such rubbish talked in all my life. what might— such rubbish talked in all my life. what might come _ such rubbish talked in all my life. what might come here _ such rubbish talked in all my life. what might come here more i such rubbish talked in all my life. l what might come here more often. this has— what might come here more often. this has not— what might come here more often. this has not been— what might come here more often. this has not been caused _ what might come here more often. this has not been caused by- what might come here more often. this has not been caused by covid,| this has not been caused by covid, ukraine _ this has not been caused by covid, ukraine or— this has not been caused by covid, ukraine or brexit, _ this has not been caused by covid, ukraine or brexit, this _ this has not been caused by covid, ukraine or brexit, this has - this has not been caused by covid, ukraine or brexit, this has been i ukraine or brexit, this has been caused — ukraine or brexit, this has been caused by— ukraine or brexit, this has been caused by the _ ukraine or brexit, this has been caused by the bank _ ukraine or brexit, this has been caused by the bank of _ ukraine or brexit, this has been caused by the bank of england, | caused by the bank of england, andrew— caused by the bank of england, andrew bailey. _ caused by the bank of england, andrew bailey. this _ caused by the bank of england, andrew bailey. this man - caused by the bank of england, andrew bailey. this man lost i caused by the bank of england, i andrew bailey. this man lost his previous— andrew bailey. this man lost his previousjob. _ andrew bailey. this man lost his previousjob, lost _ andrew bailey. this man lost his previous job, lost £77 _ andrew bailey. this man lost his previousjob, lost £77 million, i andrew bailey. this man lost his previousjob, lost £77 million, in the bond — previousjob, lost £77 million, in the bond market, _ previousjob, lost £77 million, in the bond market, earning - previousjob, lost £77 million, in the bond market, earning 16- previousjob, lost £77 million, in i the bond market, earning 16 thousand pounds _ the bond market, earning 16 thousand pounds a _ the bond market, earning 16 thousand pounds a year — the bond market, earning 16 thousand pounds a yearand _ the bond market, earning 16 thousand pounds a year and telling _ the bond market, earning 16 thousand pounds a year and telling people i the bond market, earning 16 thousand pounds a year and telling people not i pounds a year and telling people not

to take _ pounds a year and telling people not to take pay— pounds a year and telling people not to take pay increases _ pounds a year and telling people not to take pay increases —— _ pounds a year and telling people not to take pay increases —— 60,000. i to take pay increases —— 60,000. inflatlon— to take pay increases —— 60,000. inflation is— to take pay increases —— 60,000. inflation is too _ to take pay increases —— 60,000. inflation is too much _ to take pay increases —— 60,000. inflation is too much money- to take pay increases —— 60,000. i inflation is too much money chasing too few— inflation is too much money chasing too few goods _ inflation is too much money chasing too few goods. that _ inflation is too much money chasing too few goods. that man _ inflation is too much money chasing too few goods. that man printed i inflation is too much money chasing too few goods. that man printed 87| too few goods. that man printed 87 million _ too few goods. that man printed 87 million pounds. _ too few goods. that man printed 87 million pounds, printed, _ too few goods. that man printed 87 million pounds, printed, not- too few goods. that man printed 87 million pounds, printed, not enter, | million pounds, printed, not enter, -ive million pounds, printed, not enter, give it— million pounds, printed, not enter, give it to _ million pounds, printed, not enter, give it to the — million pounds, printed, not enter, give it to the government - million pounds, printed, not enter, give it to the government to - million pounds, printed, not enter, give it to the government to pay i give it to the government to pay bonds. _ give it to the government to pay bonds. to — give it to the government to pay bonds. to ease _ give it to the government to pay bonds, to ease the _ give it to the government to pay bonds, to ease the debt - give it to the government to pay bonds, to ease the debt this- give it to the government to pay i bonds, to ease the debt this country has never— bonds, to ease the debt this country has never been _ bonds, to ease the debt this country has never been so _ bonds, to ease the debt this country has never been so high _ bonds, to ease the debt this country has never been so high with, - bonds, to ease the debt this country has never been so high with, so- bonds, to ease the debt this country has never been so high with, so thisi has never been so high with, so this £87 billion _ has never been so high with, so this £87 billion is — has never been so high with, so this £87 billion is now— has never been so high with, so this £87 billion is now into _ has never been so high with, so this £87 billion is now into the _ has never been so high with, so thisi £87 billion is now into the economy, so no _ £87 billion is now into the economy, so no goods— £87 billion is now into the economy, so no goods being _ £87 billion is now into the economy, so no goods being produced, - £87 billion is now into the economy, so no goods being produced, and i £87 billion is now into the economy, i so no goods being produced, and the 87 billion _ so no goods being produced, and the 87 billion has — so no goods being produced, and the 87 billion has got _ so no goods being produced, and the 87 billion has got to _ so no goods being produced, and the 87 billion has got to be _ so no goods being produced, and the 87 billion has got to be paid - so no goods being produced, and the 87 billion has got to be paid for, i 87 billion has got to be paid for, and 100% — 87 billion has got to be paid for, and 100% that _ 87 billion has got to be paid for, and 100% that man _ 87 billion has got to be paid for, and 100% that man and - 87 billion has got to be paid for, and 100% that man and the i 87 billion has got to be paid for, i and 100% that man and the bank of england _ and 100% that man and the bank of england has— and 100% that man and the bank of england has caused _ and 100% that man and the bank of england has caused it _ and 100% that man and the bank of england has caused it and - and 100% that man and the bank of england has caused it and these i england has caused it and these people — england has caused it and these people need _ england has caused it and these people need to _ england has caused it and these people need to be _ england has caused it and these people need to be dismissed i people need to be dismissed immediately _ people need to be dismissed immediately. it— people need to be dismissed immediately. it is— people need to be dismissed immediately. it is not- people need to be dismissed immediately. it is not covid,| immediately. it is not covid, ukraine _ immediately. it is not covid, ukraine and _ immediately. it is not covid, ukraine and brexit. - immediately. it is not covid, ukraine and brexit.- immediately. it is not covid, ukraine and brexit. you are right about the manufacturing - ukraine and brexit. you are right| about the manufacturing industry struggling at the moment. gray there is none, we don't manufacture anything. is none, we don't manufacture an hini. , ., is none, we don't manufacture an hini. , . , anything. there is no productivity. we buy everything _ anything. there is no productivity. we buy everything from _ anything. there is no productivity. we buy everything from china, i anything. there is no productivity. we buy everything from china, we don't _ we buy everything from china, we don't make — we buy everything from china, we don't make anything _ we buy everything from china, we don't make anything any- we buy everything from china, we don't make anything any more. i we buy everything from china, we don't make anything any more. [i don't make anything any more. heard a yes, we do, any don't make anything any more._ heard a yes, we do, any background, i will come to that any moment. let

me take it to another collar, a point well made. andrew bailey, you are free to callers. peter in london, your view.- are free to callers. peter in london, your view. are free to callers. peter in london, our view. ., london, your view. good morning, i was a pleasure _ london, your view. good morning, i was a pleasure to _ london, your view. good morning, i was a pleasure to hear _ london, your view. good morning, i was a pleasure to hear your- london, your view. good morning, i was a pleasure to hear your voice. l was a pleasure to hear your voice. the economy is not running hot, this is a lie being perpetrated by whoever. allowing the bank of england to raise interest rates is letting the government carry out a proxy war on the middle classes. it is just another form of austerity. making the people pay for the main mistakes of this and other governments and the disasters liz truss budget, brexit creating a labour shortage, contribute into inflation, i've been listening the last few days and it's quite clear that the labour shortage is a contributor. i know it sounds really sort of... the rich are getting richer and a lot of them are in our government at the moment and they profited from all sorts of chaos that the cause in the last few

years. i think it was your second contributor saying the bank of england are actually causing this, and it is so true, and i think most people are waking up to this reality, that by putting up interest rates is actually causing the real inflation. the exterior factors, rates is actually causing the real inflation. the exteriorfactors, for instance, the war that putin started, gas and oil prices are actually back to where they were before, so... i5 actually back to where they were before, so...— before, so... is a little hand grenade _ before, so... is a little hand grenade for— before, so... is a little hand grenade for you, _ before, so... is a little hand grenade for you, liz - before, so... is a little hand grenade for you, liz truss i before, so... is a little hand i grenade for you, liz truss was... debating point, liz trust was right you want to deregulate in order to stem growth to counteract the interest rate rises? because high taxes were contributing to the financial crisis most households were experiencing. discuss. i want you to discuss. very airily and

swiftly. set this up this happened in germany _ swiftly. set this up this happened in germany in _ swiftly. set this up this happened in germany in the _ swiftly. set this up this happened in germany in the 1930s - swiftly. set this up this happened in germany in the 1930s and i swiftly. set this up this happened i in germany in the 1930s and people were going — in germany in the 1930s and people were going to— in germany in the 1930s and people were going to the _ in germany in the 1930s and people were going to the shops _ in germany in the 1930s and people were going to the shops with - in germany in the 1930s and peoplel were going to the shops with barrow loads— were going to the shops with barrow loads of— were going to the shops with barrow loads of money— were going to the shops with barrow loads of money to _ were going to the shops with barrow loads of money to buy— were going to the shops with barrow loads of money to buy loads - were going to the shops with barrow loads of money to buy loads of i were going to the shops with barrowl loads of money to buy loads of bread you cannot _ loads of money to buy loads of bread you cannot borrow _ loads of money to buy loads of bread you cannot borrow money _ loads of money to buy loads of bread you cannot borrow money to - loads of money to buy loads of bread you cannot borrow money to pay- you cannot borrow money to pay money. _ you cannot borrow money to pay money. this — you cannot borrow money to pay money. this has _ you cannot borrow money to pay money. this has been _ you cannot borrow money to pay money. this has been printed i you cannot borrow money to pay. money. this has been printed and this is— money. this has been printed and this is in— money. this has been printed and this is in the — money. this has been printed and this is in the economy— money. this has been printed and this is in the economy and - money. this has been printed and this is in the economy and every. this is in the economy and every genuine — this is in the economy and every genuine person _ this is in the economy and every genuine person has _ this is in the economy and every genuine person has worked i this is in the economy and every genuine person has worked all. this is in the economy and every. genuine person has worked all their lives is _ genuine person has worked all their lives is having — genuine person has worked all their lives is having to _ genuine person has worked all their lives is having to pay— genuine person has worked all their lives is having to pay this— genuine person has worked all their lives is having to pay this back- genuine person has worked all their lives is having to pay this back andl lives is having to pay this back and there _ lives is having to pay this back and there is— lives is having to pay this back and there is no— lives is having to pay this back and there is no external— lives is having to pay this back and there is no external things, - lives is having to pay this back and there is no external things, this i lives is having to pay this back and there is no external things, this is| there is no external things, this is 100% _ there is no external things, this is 100% the — there is no external things, this is 100% the bank— there is no external things, this is 100% the bank of— there is no external things, this is 100% the bank of england. - there is no external things, this is| 100% the bank of england. andrew bailey _ 10096 the bank of england. andrew baile . ., ., ., 10096 the bank of england. andrew itailey-_ and i 10096 the bank of england. andrew itailey-_ and i i bailey. you have said that. and i totally agree _ bailey. you have said that. and i totally agree with _ bailey. you have said that. and i totally agree with that. - bailey. you have said that. and i totally agree with that. whether| bailey. you have said that. and i i totally agree with that. whether he is responsible or not or whatever. you are absolutely ready. and many of the conservative party have profited from all... of the conservative party have profited from all. . ._ profited from all... without a doubt, profited from all... without a doubt. the — profited from all... without a doubt, the economic - profited from all... without a doubt, the economic system | profited from all... without a i doubt, the economic system much money~~ — doubt, the economic system much money~~ l— doubt, the economic system much mone ., .,

money... i can hear your anger, we will iet money... i can hear your anger, we will get kevin — money... i can hear your anger, we will get kevin on _ money... i can hear your anger, we will get kevin on any _ money... i can hear your anger, we will get kevin on any minute - money... i can hear your anger, we will get kevin on any minute but i will get kevin on any minute but carding in hampshire. —— karen. what about the impact on people of all this? iii about the impact on people of all this? .., , ., , about the impact on people of all this? , this? if i can tell you my impact as an example. _ this? if i can tell you my impact as an example. l— this? if i can tell you my impact as an example, i have _ this? if i can tell you my impact as an example, i have a _ this? if i can tell you my impact as an example, i have a mortgage i this? if i can tell you my impact as. an example, i have a mortgage that this? if i can tell you my impact as i an example, i have a mortgage that i have had since 2007 and a year ago i was at 350 and now i am at 1136 and counting, is going up again i understand for the 13th time, so for me personally that is something like a 350% rise on my mortgage. how on earth are people managing this? you've got to laugh, i can hear you... it you've got to laugh, i can hear ou... . . ~ you've got to laugh, i can hear ou... . ., . ., you've got to laugh, i can hear ou... , ., l ., , you... it is unreal. we all accept interest rates _ you... it is unreal. we all accept interest rates go _ you... it is unreal. we all accept interest rates go up _ you... it is unreal. we all accept interest rates go up and - you... it is unreal. we all accept interest rates go up and down, |

interest rates go up and down, that's fine, we accept that, but for this amount in such a short time, everyone is absolutely reeling from this and it is so hard to deal with. just one thing about liz truss, i would have liked, personally, to have had a little go with her ideas. she followed the ethos i do in my business, if my back is against the wall, carries confidence, i go for it and try and always buy and sell myself out of it and it has always worked in the past and i think that is what she was trying to do, keep the confidence level is going, but theyjust the confidence level is going, but they just did the confidence level is going, but theyjust did not give her a chance. but she exacerbated inflation with their many budget in the market slows confidence.— their many budget in the market slows confidence. ., . ., ~ ., , slows confidence. yeah... who knows what's going — slows confidence. yeah... who knows what's going on _ slows confidence. yeah... who knows what's going on behind _ slows confidence. yeah. .. who knows what's going on behind all— slows confidence. yeah... who knows what's going on behind all that? i slows confidence. yeah... who knows what's going on behind all that? who| what's going on behind all that? who knows? listen, _

what's going on behind all that? who knows? listen, this is not a phone in our discussion about the merits or otherwise of liz truss but of course she is a factor in all this. andrew, do you want to come back? hello, andrew. gray first of all, i would like to say i feel very sorry for the young people —— would like to say i feel very sorry for the young people -- that scrimped — for the young people -- that scrimped and _ for the young people -- that scrimped and scrape - for the young people —— that scrimped and scrape together deposit together— scrimped and scrape together deposit together in— scrimped and scrape together deposit together in recent _ scrimped and scrape together deposit together in recent years _ scrimped and scrape together deposit together in recent years and - scrimped and scrape together deposit together in recent years and now i together in recent years and now they have — together in recent years and now they have rate _ together in recent years and now they have rate rises. _ together in recent years and now they have rate rises. in- together in recent years and now they have rate rises. in my- together in recent years and now i they have rate rises. in my opinion, all this— they have rate rises. in my opinion, all this started _ they have rate rises. in my opinion, all this started in _ they have rate rises. in my opinion, all this started in 2009 _ they have rate rises. in my opinion, all this started in 2009 when - they have rate rises. in my opinion, all this started in 2009 when the i all this started in 2009 when the interest— all this started in 2009 when the interest rates— all this started in 2009 when the interest rates went _ all this started in 2009 when the interest rates went down - all this started in 2009 when the interest rates went down to i all this started in 2009 when the i interest rates went down to nothing. so, interest rates went down to nothing. so. if— interest rates went down to nothing. so. if you _ interest rates went down to nothing. so. if you were — interest rates went down to nothing. so. if you were a— interest rates went down to nothing. so, if you were a cashrich _ interest rates went down to nothing. so, if you were a cashrich person- interest rates went down to nothing. so, if you were a cashrich person orl so, if you were a cashrich person or company. _ so, if you were a cashrich person or company. you — so, if you were a cashrich person or company. you took— so, if you were a cashrich person or company, you took your _ so, if you were a cashrich person or company, you took your money i so, if you were a cashrich person or company, you took your money out| so, if you were a cashrich person or. company, you took your money out of the good _ company, you took your money out of the good deposit _ company, you took your money out of the good deposit accounts _ company, you took your money out of the good deposit accounts and - the good deposit accounts and started — the good deposit accounts and started buy— the good deposit accounts and started buy to— the good deposit accounts and started buy to let. _ the good deposit accounts and started buy to let. can't - the good deposit accounts and j started buy to let. can't blame them. — started buy to let. can't blame them. getting— started buy to let. can't blame them, getting the _ started buy to let. can't blame them, getting the returns- started buy to let. can't blame| them, getting the returns from started buy to let. can't blame - them, getting the returns from their money— them, getting the returns from their

money in _ them, getting the returns from their money in the — them, getting the returns from their money in the bank, _ them, getting the returns from their money in the bank, and _ them, getting the returns from their money in the bank, and ever- them, getting the returns from their money in the bank, and ever since i money in the bank, and ever since 2009. _ money in the bank, and ever since 2009. the — money in the bank, and ever since 2009. the price _ money in the bank, and ever since 2009, the price of— money in the bank, and ever since 2009, the price of houses, - money in the bank, and ever since i 2009, the price of houses, mortgage, rents have _ 2009, the price of houses, mortgage, rents have gone — 2009, the price of houses, mortgage, rents have gone up _ 2009, the price of houses, mortgage, rents have gone up and _ 2009, the price of houses, mortgage, rents have gone up and up. _ 2009, the price of houses, mortgage, rents have gone up and up. even- 2009, the price of houses, mortgage, rents have gone up and up. even the i rents have gone up and up. even the lower— rents have gone up and up. even the lower price _ rents have gone up and up. even the lower price houses _ rents have gone up and up. even the lower price houses have _ rents have gone up and up. even the lower price houses have got- rents have gone up and up. even the| lower price houses have got smaller. 0k lower price houses have got smaller. ok for— lower price houses have got smaller. ok for the _ lower price houses have got smaller. ok for the rich— lower price houses have got smaller. ok for the rich people, _ lower price houses have got smaller. ok for the rich people, always- lower price houses have got smaller. ok for the rich people, always a i ok for the rich people, always a win-win— ok for the rich people, always a win-win for— ok for the rich people, always a win—win for them _ ok for the rich people, always a win—win for them if— ok for the rich people, always a win—win for them if interest i ok for the rich people, always a. win—win for them if interest rates io win—win for them if interest rates go down — win—win for them if interest rates go down very— win—win for them if interest rates go down very low. _ win—win for them if interest rates go down very low, buy _ win—win for them if interest rates go down very low, buy to - win—win for them if interest rates go down very low, buy to let, i win—win for them if interest rates go down very low, buy to let, if i go down very low, buy to let, if interest— go down very low, buy to let, if interest rates _ go down very low, buy to let, if interest rates go _ go down very low, buy to let, if interest rates go high— go down very low, buy to let, if interest rates go high they i go down very low, buy to let, if interest rates go high they selll go down very low, buy to let, if i interest rates go high they sell up and put _ interest rates go high they sell up and put the — interest rates go high they sell up and put the money _ interest rates go high they sell up and put the money back— interest rates go high they sell up and put the money back in- interest rates go high they sell up and put the money back in the i interest rates go high they sell up i and put the money back in the bank. and everybody— and put the money back in the bank. and everybody has _ and put the money back in the bank. and everybody has to _ and put the money back in the bank. and everybody has to pay _ and put the money back in the bank. and everybody has to pay for - and put the money back in the bank. and everybody has to pay for it. i and put the money back in the bank. and everybody has to pay for it. so i and everybody has to pay for it. so it is bank— and everybody has to pay for it. so it is bank of— and everybody has to pay for it. so it is bank of england's _ and everybody has to pay for it. so it is bank of england's fault... it. it is bank of england's fault... it hits it is bank of england's fault... hits them as well if it is their business and it hits renters as well. thank you, all. listen, kevin, we're going to bring you and any second. we understand now that chris whitty will not be speaking at ten o'clock. we'll get to the bottom of that one very soon. kevin, hi. its,

o'clock. we'll get to the bottom of that one very soon. kevin, hi. a lo. interesting — that one very soon. kevin, hi. a lo. interesting calls. _ that one very soon. kevin, hi. a lo. interesting calls. boiling, _ that one very soon. kevin, hi. a lo. interesting calls. boiling, raging i interesting calls. boiling, raging angerfrom a lot interesting calls. boiling, raging anger from a lot of people. interesting calls. boiling, raging angerfrom a lot of people. i'm seeing it on the text, on social media. it is a time of great uncertainty, isn't it? wore the considerations today? what is the stuff we hear about we need to have a recession? if stuff we hear about we need to have a recession?— a recession? if there's anything clear from _ a recession? if there's anything clear from the _ a recession? if there's anything clear from the last _ a recession? if there's anything clear from the last 20 - a recession? if there's anything clear from the last 20 minutesl a recession? if there's anything | clear from the last 20 minutes it a recession? if there's anything i clear from the last 20 minutes it is that there are choices to be made by the bank of england and not everyone is going to agree with the decision they make. in the words of sir charlie bean, theirformer deputy charlie bean, their former deputy governor of charlie bean, theirformer deputy governor of the bank of and, they could take a small step today, could take a big step, of course they could take no step at all. so they've got to decide how much they will put up rates, they may not even agree with each other, this committee at the bank of england, they will debate between themselves

and then they will take evil and is very likely some one that big step, some are want that small step, but at the heart of the is obviously real—life, and as interest rates rise, borrowing its more expensive, if you're someone with a fixed—rate mortgage, because there is not an immediate impact, comes when you renew your mortgage, and the mortgage lenders have already priced in, factored in an interest rate rise today in the way they've set their rates, so that's one thing. obviously with people like karen who we have just heard from, someone on a variable rate mortgage, that is going to be more paying if the race walk again, and that is at the top end there, £440 rise since december 2021 for that monthly repayment for someone on a tracker mortgage, so

it's all has real—life impacts, sometimes getting caught up in the economic debate of all this but it hits people in their pockets and... do they get this in the boardroom, the alan sugar —type place where they're having lattes later on in coming to the final decision? do you believe, carding, that they connect, the people that make these decisions connect with the likes of you? than? connect with the likes of you? any ear it is connect with the likes of you? any year it is an _ connect with the likes of you? any year it is an £800 rise. i wish it was _ year it is an £800 rise. i wish it was a _ year it is an £800 rise. i wish it was a £400 _ year it is an £800 rise. i wish it was a £400 rise. _ year it is an £800 rise. i wish it was a £400 rise. my— year it is an £800 rise. i wish it was a £400 rise. my children i year it is an £800 rise. i wish it. was a £400 rise. my children have grown _ was a £400 rise. my children have grown up. — was a £400 rise. my children have grown up. im— was a £400 rise. my children have grown up, i'm self—employed, i've 'ust grown up, i'm self—employed, i've just turned — grown up, i'm self—employed, i've just turned 60 _ grown up, i'm self—employed, i've just turned 60 knows _ grown up, i'm self—employed, i've just turned 60 knows i'm - grown up, i'm self—employed, i've just turned 60 knows i'm having i grown up, i'm self—employed, i'vej just turned 60 knows i'm having to work _ just turned 60 knows i'm having to work so _ just turned 60 knows i'm having to work so much _ just turned 60 knows i'm having to work so much harder— just turned 60 knows i'm having to work so much harder time - just turned 60 knows i'm having to work so much harder time and i. just turned 60 knows i'm having to i work so much harder time and i would like to— work so much harder time and i would like to take _ work so much harder time and i would like to take my— work so much harder time and i would like to take my foot _ work so much harder time and i would like to take my foot off— work so much harder time and i would like to take my foot off the _ work so much harder time and i would like to take my foot off the just - work so much harder time and i would like to take my foot off the just to i like to take my foot off the just to keep— like to take my foot off the just to keep up— like to take my foot off the just to keep up with _ like to take my foot off the just to keep up with a _ like to take my foot off the just to keep up with a £300 _ like to take my foot off the just to keep up with a £300 increase i like to take my foot off the just to keep up with a £300 increase wel like to take my foot off the just to i keep up with a £300 increase we can 'ust keep up with a £300 increase we can just my— keep up with a £300 increase we can just my mortgage _ keep up with a £300 increase we can just my mortgage little _ keep up with a £300 increase we can just my mortgage little and - just my mortgage little and everything _ just my mortgage little and everything else. _ just my mortgage little and everything else. for- just my mortgage little and everything else.— just my mortgage little and eve hini else. ., , , everything else. for these people, sometimes — everything else. for these people, sometimes all _

everything else. for these people, sometimes all seems _ everything else. for these people, sometimes all seems a _ everything else. for these people, sometimes all seems a bit - sometimes all seems a bit theoretical, all seems a bit notional. that they understand your life? , , , ., ., , ., life? just seems to me that they are usini life? just seems to me that they are using those — life? just seems to me that they are using those of— life? just seems to me that they are using those of us, _ life? just seems to me that they are using those of us, people _ life? just seems to me that they are using those of us, people like i using those of us, people like trackers — using those of us, people like trackers and _ using those of us, people like trackers and variables - using those of us, people like trackers and variables as i using those of us, people like trackers and variables as a i trackers and variables as a battering _ trackers and variables as a battering ram _ trackers and variables as a battering ram against i trackers and variables as a | battering ram against their incompetence, _ battering ram against their incompetence, regards i battering ram against their incompetence, regards tol battering ram against their- incompetence, regards to inflation. and they— incompetence, regards to inflation. and they don't _ incompetence, regards to inflation. and they don't seem _ incompetence, regards to inflation. and they don't seem to _ incompetence, regards to inflation. and they don't seem to care - incompetence, regards to inflation. and they don't seem to care what l and they don't seem to care what they're _ and they don't seem to care what they're doing _ and they don't seem to care what they're doing to— and they don't seem to care what they're doing to us, _ and they don't seem to care what they're doing to us, it _ and they don't seem to care what they're doing to us, it absolutelyl they're doing to us, it absolutely unreal _ they're doing to us, it absolutely unreal. ., f they're doing to us, it absolutely unreal. . j . . , . unreal. yeah, they're certainly a debate going — unreal. yeah, they're certainly a debate going on _ unreal. yeah, they're certainly a debate going on about - unreal. yeah, they're certainly a debate going on about whether| unreal. yeah, they're certainly a i debate going on about whether the squeeze is being, the pressure that has been put on a smaller number of people and has been the case historically, so we have got a vast majority, but eight out of ten british voters now have a fixed rate, so if you have a fixed rate you'll be seeing hang on, when i get my next deal it's going to be going up my next deal it's going to be going up by my next deal it's going to be going up by hundreds of pounds. that obviously takes time to feed through

and in the meantime people like karen are really building this craze so there is a debate over who feels the pain here, and how much effect that has on the economy as a whole and certainly how long it takes to get that inflation rate down. just to give you a couple of quick numbers, remembersome to give you a couple of quick numbers, remember some of the targets here, inflation, the rates of rising prices being sticky, stock, 8.7% the last couple of months, the target for inflation is 2%, 80% rise in the year and prices and the government has said its target is to have from ten — five by the end of the year to the bank of england is under pressure to bring the inflation rate down, it really doesn't have many tools at its disposal to do it, so the primary one, of course, as interest rates and that's the one that is affecting people, as we've seen them rise and

rise, today as we expect another rise, today as we expect another rise that will be 13 any role. 13 any role. what do you make of that? —— in a row. 13. how much more can be stomach? — —— in a row. 13. how much more can be stomach? -- _ —— in a row. 13. how much more can be stomach? —— can we summon? how be stomach? -- can we summon? how much more _ be stomach? -- can we summon? how much more can — be stomach? -- can we summon? how much more can you? — be stomach? -- can we summon? how much more can you? very— be stomach? -- can we summon? how much more can you? very little. - be stomach? -- can we summon? how much more can you? very little. minel much more can you? very little. mine has increased — much more can you? very little. mine has increased by _ much more can you? very little. mine has increased by more _ much more can you? very little. mine has increased by more than _ much more can you? very little. mine has increased by more than 1196 - much more can you? very little. mine has increased by more than 1196 and i has increased by more than 11% and the prices _ has increased by more than 11% and the prices are going through the root _ the prices are going through the roof i_ the prices are going through the roof. i can't... the prices are going through the roof. ican't... i'm the prices are going through the roof. i can't... i'm trying to find a roof. ican't... i'm trying to find 510i)— roof. ican't... i'm trying to find a job at— roof. i can't... i'm trying to find a job at the _ roof. i can't... i'm trying to find a job at the moment but i cannot, for love _

a job at the moment but i cannot, for love hor— a job at the moment but i cannot, for love nor money, get a job. it is for love nor money, get a 'ob. it is a nightmare. * for love nor money, get a 'ob. it is a nightmare. we * for love nor money, get ajob. it 3 a nightmare. we are listening intently. a nightmare. we are listening intentl . . a nightmare. we are listening intentl. . ., , ., , intently. high have house conditions but i am willing _ intently. high have house conditions but i am willing to _ intently. high have house conditions but i am willing to work. _ intently. high have house conditions but i am willing to work. excuse - intently. high have house conditions| but i am willing to work. excuse me. yeah, _ but i am willing to work. excuse me. yeah, i_ but i am willing to work. excuse me. yeah, idoh't— but i am willing to work. excuse me. yeah, i don't know what else to do. well, _ yeah, i don't know what else to do. welt, you _ yeah, i don't know what else to do. well, you have expressed it as powerfully and in a very articulate weight. powerfully and in a very articulate weiuht. ~ . . powerfully and in a very articulate weiaht.~ . , , powerfully and in a very articulate weiuht. . , weight. what else can people do? the are weight. what else can people do? they are doing — weight. what else can people do? they are doing their _ weight. what else can people do? they are doing their best, - weight. what else can people do? they are doing their best, they i weight. what else can people do? | they are doing their best, they are trying _ they are doing their best, they are trying hard. — they are doing their best, they are trying hard, out and about. lifting

the economy in the best way they can, but— the economy in the best way they can, but there is only so much steam in the _ can, but there is only so much steam in the engine — can, but there is only so much steam in the engine-— can, but there is only so much steam in the engine. only so much steam in the engine. — in the engine. only so much steam in the engine. you _ in the engine. only so much steam in the engine, you said _ in the engine. only so much steam in the engine, you said it _ in the engine. only so much steam in the engine, you said it all. _ in the engine. only so much steam in the engine, you said it all. neal- in the engine. only so much steam in the engine, you said it all. neal in . the engine, you said it all. neal in manchester. the engine, you said it all. neal in manchester-— the engine, you said it all. neal in manchester. ., . . manchester. good morning. i have an additional idea. _ manchester. good morning. i have an additional idea. they _ manchester. good morning. i have an additional idea. they are _ manchester. good morning. i have an additional idea. they are putting - additional idea. they are putting interest rates at which affects everybody, obviously it affects the poorest 60—70% of the people already struggling through the cost of living crisis. 50 instead of putting interest rates up, there are so convinced consumers are spending too much money, which is adding to inflation, why don't they instead put income tax up to the richest

30-40%, that with put income tax up to the richest 30—40%, that with have it right, that would stop them from spending as much money and have the same, if not a better effect than putting interest rates up, not the same time, that would protect all the people. time, that would protect all the --eole. �* . . time, that would protect all the eo le, �* , , ., time, that would protect all the --eole. v . . ., time, that would protect all the neale, �*, , . ., time, that would protect all the --eole. �*, , . ., . people. let's put that to sam and richard. what _ people. let's put that to sam and richard. what about _ people. let's put that to sam and richard. what about that? - people. let's put that to sam and richard. what about that? using | richard. what about that? using taxes to conduct... _ richard. what about that? using taxes to conduct... this - richard. what about that? using taxes to conduct... this is - richard. what about that? using taxes to conduct... this is an - richard. what about that? using l taxes to conduct... this is an ideal gets ported from time time which is one that economists tend to be slightly down on. the general idea for most economists is that... may be richer disagree, monetary policy issues to combat inflation, and tax policy, fiscal policy is not. you don't necessarily want to set them against each other, you don't want

to be doing tax cuts with the rate of interest rates and spending more at that point and you may not want to be doing some large increases in taxes at the point where the bank of england is trying to stimulate the economy, she may not want them to work against one another but the general point is we don't want to be raising and lowering taxes. richard murphy? let's come in so first of all anybody _ richard murphy? let's come in so first of all anybody who _ richard murphy? let's come in so first of all anybody who says - richard murphy? let's come in so| first of all anybody who says there is a difference between monetary and policy _ is a difference between monetary and policy is _ is a difference between monetary and policy is wrong. monetary policy supposedly is about money, tax and fiscat— supposedly is about money, tax and fiscal policy supposedly about tax, but actually money and tax are the flip but actually money and tax are the flip side _ but actually money and tax are the flip side of— but actually money and tax are the flip side of each other, bluntly. and so— flip side of each other, bluntly. and so actually that's wrong. and in fact neat— and so actually that's wrong. and in fact neal was absolutely right, we should _ fact neal was absolutely right, we should be — fact neal was absolutely right, we should be using tax at present because — should be using tax at present because we don't live in an economy where _ because we don't live in an economy where everybody is the same, although— where everybody is the same, although that is what the bank of england — although that is what the bank of england assumes. we hear economists saying _ england assumes. we hear economists saying that _ england assumes. we hear economists saying that the economy is blowing too hot _ saying that the economy is blowing too hot. well, what economy are they tiving _ too hot. well, what economy are they living in? _ too hot. well, what economy are they living in? it— too hot. well, what economy are they living in? it must be the one of their— living in? it must be the one of their friends. the person who said that yesterday on radio 4 worked for

jpmorgan _ that yesterday on radio 4 worked for jpmorgan and if you work for jpmorgan and if you work for jpmorgan i suspect your economy is blowing — jpmorgan i suspect your economy is blowing really hot, your life is pretty— blowing really hot, your life is pretty comfortable. but the reality is, as _ pretty comfortable. but the reality is, as gary— pretty comfortable. but the reality is, as gary put it, so well, the vast _ is, as gary put it, so well, the vast majority of people are in despain _ vast majority of people are in despair. we have therefore got a two tier economy. and we should be having _ tier economy. and we should be having measures that tackle the two tier economy. it is the wealth you have _ tier economy. it is the wealth you have money to spend. so we should be seeing _ have money to spend. so we should be seeing an— have money to spend. so we should be seeing an increase in income tax, we should _ seeing an increase in income tax, we should be _ seeing an increase in income tax, we should be seeing increases in capitat— should be seeing increases in capital gains taxes, we should be looking _ capital gains taxes, we should be looking at— capital gains taxes, we should be looking at measures to increase targe _ looking at measures to increase large companies' rates of tax on their— large companies' rates of tax on their profits because they are exploiting in the small ones aren't. that is— exploiting in the small ones aren't. that is really fundamental. can i go back to _ that is really fundamental. can i go back to other points? first of all there _ back to other points? first of all there isn't— back to other points? first of all there isn't one weapon the bank of england _ there isn't one weapon the bank of england has. they also have quantitative tightening. they are, this is— quantitative tightening. they are, this is the — quantitative tightening. they are, this is the reason why, by the way, we had _ this is the reason why, by the way, we had a _ this is the reason why, by the way, we had a crisis last september. it was not _ we had a crisis last september. it was not li2— we had a crisis last september. it was not liz truss's budget, bad as it was— was not liz truss's budget, bad as it was that — was not liz truss's budget, bad as it was that created the crisis, the bank— it was that created the crisis, the bank of— it was that created the crisis, the bank of england created the crisis in interest— bank of england created the crisis in interest rates last september because — in interest rates last september because they said they were going to

take £80 _ because they said they were going to take £80 billion out of the economy with quantitative tightening, the reverse — with quantitative tightening, the reverse of ge. and as a result markets — reverse of ge. and as a result markets panicked because they realised — markets panicked because they realised that interest rates were going _ realised that interest rates were going to — realised that interest rates were going to go up so of course they forced _ going to go up so of course they forced them up and that's exactly what _ forced them up and that's exactly what the — forced them up and that's exactly what the bank of england wanted. so the first— what the bank of england wanted. so the first thing the bank of england can do— the first thing the bank of england can do instead of raising interest rates _ can do instead of raising interest rates right— can do instead of raising interest rates right now to stabilise the markets — rates right now to stabilise the markets is to stop quantitative tightening, that is what they should be doing _ tightening, that is what they should be doing as well as cancelling interest— be doing as well as cancelling interest rate rises. they need to leave _ interest rate rises. they need to leave money in the economy because taking _ leave money in the economy because taking money out is increasing this whole _ taking money out is increasing this whole process of creating recession. and they _ whole process of creating recession. and they are deliberately creating recession, let's be clear. that was said by— recession, let's be clear. that was said by karen wood ofjpmorgan yesterday by radio 4 and it was repeated — yesterday by radio 4 and it was repeated by economists on channel 4 news tast— repeated by economists on channel 4 news last night. we need a recession. the last thing we need is a recession— recession. the last thing we need is a recession in an economy which is already— a recession in an economy which is already doing incredibly badly! because we heard george osborne say this week, _ because we heard george osborne say this week, let's be clear what george — this week, let's be clear what george osborne said, if we have a

recession. — george osborne said, if we have a recession, gdp will fall and if gdp falls recession, gdp will fall and if gdp fatts we _ recession, gdp will fall and if gdp falls we will spend less on health care and — falls we will spend less on health care and more people are going to die. bluntly, it is as crude as that — die. bluntly, it is as crude as that gary— die. bluntly, it is as crude as that. gary in tiverton, in his call the way— that. gary in tiverton, in his call the way he — that. gary in tiverton, in his call the way he put it, the despair in his voice — the way he put it, the despair in his voice is— the way he put it, the despair in his voice is still with me and will be with— his voice is still with me and will be with me _ his voice is still with me and will be with me for a long time. kevin, i will come to — be with me for a long time. kevin, i will come to you, _ be with me for a long time. kevin, i will come to you, but _ be with me for a long time. kevin, i will come to you, but sam, - be with me for a long time. kevin, i will come to you, but sam, i - be with me for a long time. kevin, i will come to you, but sam, i think | will come to you, but sam, i think your screen froze. ijust will come to you, but sam, i think your screen froze. i just want you to address this point. and given as well and then we will regroup. we need to have a recession. what is that all about, sam? need to have a recession. what is that allabout, sam? let's need to have a recession. what is that all about, sam? let's fade you “p that all about, sam? let's fade you up so we can hear you. we can't hear you, he is talking, but we are not hearing him. kevin peachey. sorry, is this 0k? — hearing him. kevin peachey. sorry, is this ok? we _ hearing him. kevin peachey. sorry, is this ok? we have _ hearing him. kevin peachey. sorry, is this ok? we have got _ hearing him. kevin peachey. sorry, is this ok? we have got you, - hearing him. kevin peachey. sorry, is this ok? we have got you, yes. | is this ok? we have got you, yes. i'm is this ok? we have got you, yes. i'm having — is this ok? we have got you, yes. i'm having wi-fi _ is this ok? we have got you, yes. i'm having wi-fi issues. _ is this ok? we have got you, yes. i'm having wi-fi issues. so, - i'm having wi—fi issues. 50, effectively, nobody particularly wants to cause recessions, i think thatis wants to cause recessions, i think that is fairly obvious. it is wants to cause recessions, i think that is fairly obvious.— that is fairly obvious. it is very much in the — that is fairly obvious. it is very much in the air— that is fairly obvious. it is very much in the air people - that is fairly obvious. it is very much in the air people are - that is fairly obvious. it is very . much in the air people are talking about it, that's what we now need, people are saying it. that about it, that's what we now need, people are saying it.— people are saying it. that is a thing but _ people are saying it. that is a thing but sometimes - people are saying it. that is a thing but sometimes you - people are saying it. that is a | thing but sometimes you have people are saying it. that is a - thing but sometimes you have tricky trade—offs in economics and there is

damage which inflation does to people, rising prices make it hard for people to afford things, it redistributes any in not a very equitable way across the country, or at the spending power and precision is damaging because it affects people's incomes. but if you have high inflation, what the bank of ink thatis high inflation, what the bank of ink that is going to do is call down economic activity to try and bring it under control. and it's going to try to do it in a way which doesn't drive the economy backwards but also, again, if inflation is high and you need more interest rates there is a danger you overshoot and rather than getting a cooling amounts, bringing stuff down gradually you end up dipping into recession. and at some point perhaps that's the only choice you have to bring inflation back under control. i think we can turn to examples around the world where banks have failed to control inflation and see that can also be really damaging. you are sort of stuck between a rock and a hard place here. nobody wants and a hard place here. nobody wants a recession, nobody wants high inflation but at some point there is a trade off... inflation but at some point there is a trade off- - -_ inflation but at some point there is a trade off... you so nobody wants a recession but _ a trade off... you so nobody wants a recession but richard _

a trade off... you so nobody wants a recession but richard makes - a trade off... you so nobody wants a recession but richard makes the - recession but richard makes the point that people are openly talking about it now, that's what we need, there are no good options but that is a possible road we need to go down. when you say nobody wants a recession, i'm not sure if that is quite true. i recession, i'm not sure if that is quite true-— recession, i'm not sure if that is uuite true. ., quite true. i need it -- mean it in the sense — quite true. i need it -- mean it in the sense were _ quite true. i need it -- mean it in the sense were nobly _ quite true. i need it -- mean it in the sense were nobly wants - quite true. i need it -- mean it in the sense were nobly wants to i quite true. i need it -- mean it inj the sense were nobly wants to be quite true. i need it -- mean it in i the sense were nobly wants to be on the sense were nobly wants to be on the situation where you have to make this choice, it is not fantastically welcome news. i'm not saying nobody would be willing to do that. maybe that was my phrasing. i get would be willing to do that. maybe that was my phrasing.— that was my phrasing. i get it, absolutely- — that was my phrasing. i get it, absolutely. we _ that was my phrasing. i get it, absolutely. we are _ that was my phrasing. i get it, absolutely. we are going i that was my phrasing. i get it, absolutely. we are going to i that was my phrasing. i get it, l absolutely. we are going to hold fire there. more from kevin if we can after the news and sport. that is the question we're asking. should rates go up? what do you think? we are hearing the macro and micro and personal as well. 08085 909693 is the phone number. you can text on 85058. it is 9.35.

and here is the news from karishma patel. the bank of england is expected to raise interest rates at midday — for the 13th time in a row. it's in an effort to curb high inflation. the government has ruled out directly helping people — who are struggling to pay their mortgages. instead, it's urging banks to give customers more time — to pay back their loans. estimates suggest that five men on board a tourist submersible — missing near the titanic wreck in the north atlantic — could run out of oxygen later this morning. the us coast guard says it's expanded the search area. a swimmer — who disappeared trying to cross the english channel for charity — has been identified as a firefighter from the west midlands. iain hughes, a 42—year—old crew manager for wednesbury fire station, disappeared in french waters. a search has been called off. the defence secretary seems to have ruled himself out of becoming the next head of nato. speaking to the economist, ben wallace said it "wasn't going to happen". a number of countries

in the alliance are thought to have pushed forjens stoltenberg — to stay in the post. that was the news and now the sport with shourjo sarkar. the england women's head coach, jon lewis, says he's been inspired by the brand of cricket played by the england's men's test side, and that his team will try to emulate their style. england take on australia in the women's ashes, which starts with a one—off five—day test at trent bridge today. manchester city's treble winning—captain, ilkay gundogan, is leaving to join barcelona. the 32—year old germany midfielder, who was manager pep guardiola's first signing at city, will depart on a free transfer at the end of this month. the football fixtures for the new efl season have just been announced. sheffield wednesday versus southampton will kick off the championship on 4th august. while hollywood—owned wrexham will start their tenure back in the football league, playing mk dons at home. and in golf, the women's pga, the second major championship of the year, starts at baltusrol in newjersey today.

ireland's leona maguire is expected to lead europe's challenge. a couple of things, chris whitty will now appear at the covid inquiry at 11:30am and we will bring you that. we thought it was going to be ten o'clock but it is 11:30am. we will have the latest on the missing sub in a second as well. we have had a lot of very interesting economic dissertations, very important, in the first part of our phone in

today. but we began to get into the personal, into the heart of your lives, and i think that's the important thing for those who make these decisions to hear. so do get in touch and tell us how all this is and how all this will affect you, what we are going through at the moment. kevin peachey, we get to the decision at noon and we don't know what it is going to be. it could be 4.75, it could be 5%. i was speaking to faisal yesterday, our economics editor, and he said it will not be unanimous. editor, and he said it will not be unanimous-— editor, and he said it will not be unanimous. ., ., �* ., unanimous. no, it won't, and we will aet unanimous. no, it won't, and we will net that unanimous. no, it won't, and we will get that decision _ unanimous. no, it won't, and we will get that decision in _ unanimous. no, it won't, and we will get that decision in a _ unanimous. no, it won't, and we will get that decision in a couple - unanimous. no, it won't, and we will get that decision in a couple of i get that decision in a couple of hours. but it is certainly going to be a couple of days, a couple of weeks, probably a couple of years of debate after that as to whether it was the right decision. obviously we have heard these personal stories, people saying in the end there is too much month at the end of the money. and so what they want, you know, they look at their grocery

shop, they look at prices going up. clearly that's affecting everybody. the bank of england is looking at that, too, and it is saying, right, are we going to try and control disinflation our primary tool, interest rates? how they do that, whether they are doing that well, whether they are doing that well, whether they are doing that quickly or too slowly, all of that is up for debate, all of that is being debated by the committee, and in the end they will come up with their decision and we will be poring over it certainly all day today and beyond that, too. find it certainly all day today and beyond that, too. it certainly all day today and be ond that, too. �* , , ., ., beyond that, too. and beyond that, too. too beyond that, too. and beyond that, too- too much _ beyond that, too. and beyond that, too. too much month _ beyond that, too. and beyond that, too. too much month at _ beyond that, too. and beyond that, too. too much month at the - beyond that, too. and beyond that, too. too much month at the end i beyond that, too. and beyond that, too. too much month at the end of| too. too much month at the end of the money. thank you very much indeed, kevin. as i said, let's get the latest on the search for the missing titanic sub. our science correspondentjonathan amos is here. what is going on there? irate correspondent jonathan amos is here. what is going on there?— what is going on there? we are into those key hours _ what is going on there? we are into those key hours now. _ what is going on there? we are into those key hours now. we _ what is going on there? we are into those key hours now. we have i what is going on there? we are into those key hours now. we have beenj those key hours now. we have been talking for the last two or three days about the available oxygen in the sub. if the occupants are indeed

alive, have been alive, if the sub itself survived whatever calamity that it encountered on sunday during its dive to the titanic wreck, if they are still there alive on the sea floor, their oxygen levels are running low. they should, according to oceangate, the company that made and operates this particular tourist sub. they should have enough oxygen for the most part of today, all things being equal. of course at some point they are going to get into real difficulty. they will not have enough oxygen to breathe, they will produce too much carbon dioxide, it will be very cold in that sub. we know what the water temperature is at that depth, it's like being in a fridge, it is less than 4 degrees. you can imagine that with very little power there will be a lot of condensation on the walls inside this vehicle, so it is unpleasant, that's for sure. so if the lost unpleasant, that's for sure. so if they lost contact _ unpleasant, that's for sure. so if they lost contact on _ unpleasant, that's for sure. so if they lost contact on the - unpleasant, that's for sure. so if they lost contact on the way i unpleasant, that's for sure. so if they lost contact on the way down, might adjust have been a case of

losing power, power going off? certainly they lost the power that enabled them to communicate with the surface ship that was supporting them. and the communication systems went down, there are two primary ones, navigation system, because officially there is no gps once you get into the water. the radio signals from satellites don't penetrate the water, so what you haveis penetrate the water, so what you have is an acoustic system the shipping is the sub, so the ship has got gps so it knows where it is and it knows where the sub is relative to its commander so it can direct the sub and so you need to go right because the titanic wreck is over there. but then they also have a short messaging system, bit like a text message on a mobile phone, and they communicate between the sub and they communicate between the sub and the surface support vessel through that. both of those systems seem to have gone down. and that's why they haven't been able to contact. truth? haven't been able to contact. why would both _ haven't been able to contact. why would both systems go down? haven't been able to contact. why i would both systems go down? that's interestin: , would both systems go down? that's interesting, all— would both systems go down? that's interesting, all of _ would both systems go down? that's interesting, all of the _ would both systems go down? that's interesting, all of the experts - would both systems go down? that's interesting, all of the experts i i interesting, all of the experts i have spoken to say they should be

independently powered. they should be independently powered. why is that? and so they now have that enormous search area. we got an update from the us coast guard yesterday evening uk time. we will get another one during the course of this day. it is 26,000 square kilometres that they are searching. to put that in context. {lit kilometres that they are searching. to put that in context.— to put that in context. of the size of wales. to put that in context. of the size of wales- if— to put that in context. of the size of wales. if they _ to put that in context. of the size of wales. if they were _ to put that in context. of the size of wales. if they were heading i to put that in context. of the size i of wales. if they were heading down, would they not be aware they were heading? ikla would they not be aware they were headin. ? ., , .. , would they not be aware they were headinu? ., , , . , heading? no because the currents would make _ heading? no because the currents would make them _ heading? no because the currents would make them drift, _ heading? no because the currents would make them drift, that's i heading? no because the currents would make them drift, that's the| would make them drift, that's the thing. if they went down very quickly, yes, there would be roughly where the last contact would be. but we simply don't know. that's the point. we simply don't know. that's the oint. . , ., ., ~ point. the currents would make them drift if they had _ point. the currents would make them drift if they had lost _ point. the currents would make them drift if they had lost power? - point. the currents would make them drift if they had lost power? the i drift if they had lost power? the currents would _ drift if they had lost power? the: currents would make drift if they had lost power? tie: currents would make them drift if they had lost power? the: currents would make them drift a big distance. the people i have spoken to have set potentially many tens of kilometres now since sunday. 50 it is very difficult. if you look on ship tracking software, i have ship tracking software, you can see the ships above the search site, there is about six or seven of them there

now, there is this french vessel that has this very capable of remotely operated vehicle, the atlantique, that's the ship. that was standing off the search area when i looked this morning but it is now steaming towards the search site at about 13 knots and which may indicate it is ready to put in its very capable rov in the water. we will find out later this morning. how long to get the craft back to the surface? it how long to get the craft back to the surface?— how long to get the craft back to the surface? it depends what the roblem the surface? it depends what the problem is- _ the surface? it depends what the problem is. this _ the surface? it depends what the problem is. this is _ the surface? it depends what the problem is. this is the _ the surface? it depends what the problem is. this is the problem, | the surface? it depends what the i problem is. this is the problem, we have huge numbers of scenarios and no idea as to what is the correct one. if it is on the sea floor and maybe this emergency palace injection system these subs have, they get into trouble, they are supposed to drop weights and they will come back to the surface. if they can get that off, so within rov, they can do some cutting and make it come back up, may be a winch

can be put down to pull it back up. you are talking a couple of hours may be to get to the surface. but first you've got to find it. you've got to find it and then you've got to decide what you are going to do with it, and an action that plan. we are talking hours. and they may not have ours. is are talking hours. and they may not have ours. . . are talking hours. and they may not have ours. , , ., have ours. is there still a possibility _ have ours. is there still a possibility is _ have ours. is there still a possibility is on - have ours. is there still a possibility is on the i have ours. is there still a i possibility is on the surface? it have ours. is there still a - possibility is on the surface? it is a possibility- _ possibility is on the surface? it is a possibility- i— possibility is on the surface? it 3 a possibility. iwould possibility is on the surface? it 3 a possibility. i would say, though, that this is an area of ocean that naval forces know very well because it's the sort of area that you might expect to detect russian submarines. thinking about where it is, of the east coast of the united states, it is a zone where a lot of transatlantic cables come across from europe into north america. 50 strategically, infrastructure —wise, it's a very important region and you can bet that the us and canadian navies know those orders extremely well. so the aircraft they have are constantly on the lookout for

russian submarines, chinese submarines, or whatever. they have the capacity to see a periscope, to see a submarine close to the surface of the water. obviously in naval sub is quite big. this thing is six or seven metres long. it won't be sitting proud of the water, it will be just sitting proud of the water, it will bejust under sitting proud of the water, it will be just under the water. but even so you would have confidence that they would be able to see something, to detect something if it was there. why is there not a capability of opening it from the inside? these are the questions _ opening it from the inside? these are the questions right _ opening it from the inside? these are the questions right now- opening it from the inside? these are the questions right now which| are the questions right now which are the questions right now which are going to come. there is inevitably going to be an investigation. every sub that is made that goes to these depths in many ways is kind of like a prototype because there are so few of them. the oil industry is doing a lot of work at about 3000 metres.

you get very capable remotely operated vehicles that do three kilometres down. this is for micro kilometres down. this is for micro kilometres down. this is for micro kilometres down. so the only kind of vehicles that are routinely working at that kind of depth are the research vehicles, the ones that are doing serious science. —— four kilometres. trying to understand the sea and volcanic vents, the geology of the sea floor. and now you've got all of these entrepreneurs coming in who are designing new types of submarines. and this is a very different type of sub that generally we don't see. most subs are like a sphere. they might have allsorts of dublin is around them, batteries and all the other equipment they might need, but that core part of the sub is a sphere. generally speaking it is a sphere. generally speaking it is a sphere. generally speaking it is a titanium sphere. a sphere is the best shape when you're dealing with pressure so you get equalised pressure all the way around. if there is any weaknesses in a sealed

pressure pushes everything together so that that leak doesn't become critical. but this sub is likely to become a carbon fibre tube with titanium caps on the end. it didn't go through a certification process that some other subs have done. i'm sure once we get past this there is going to be a big investigation, there is going to be regulation, more regulation that will come in to what is a nascent field, deep sea tourism. i mean, this is very new. you are seeing now wealthy tourists going into space. richard branson has a rocket plane, jeff bezos, the founder of amazon.com, has a rocket capsule system. elon musk is selling spacesin capsule system. elon musk is selling spaces in his crude dragon capsule to billionaires and this is something that is going to come more and more. . something that is going to come more and more. , ., ., something that is going to come more and more. , . ., ., , and more. there is a danger in any scenario of— and more. there is a danger in any scenario of ambition _ and more. there is a danger in any scenario of ambition exceeding i scenario of ambition exceeding

sense. —— crewed. and safety. the sense. -- crewed. and safety. the industry has _ sense. -- crewed. and safety. the industry has to _ sense. —— crewed. and safety. tie: industry has to look at itself and i think it's going to be a wake—up call, for sure, about whether they have the procedures, the regulations, the certification in place to deal with what is occurring. we know that when you look at this particular sub, one of the interesting things people may have noticed, it has a sony playstation thing. that in and of itself shouldn't necessarily be, hey, what are they doing? because you can imagine how many millions sony spent developing that piece of technology. ok. but it kind of shows ou technology. ok. but it kind of shows you the different approaches that people might take to develop these kinds of vehicles because there is a lot of really interesting technology that you can get off the shelf. we are seeing that in satellites now. they are taking the technology that is in our mobile phones and putting it in space. and they are

discovering that it works. it used to be that if you had a component to go into space it was very expensive, it was certainly not off—the—shelf, it was certainly not off—the—shelf, it was certainly not off—the—shelf, it was bespoke at a cost a lot of money. now we are literally putting the innards of mobile phones in space. the innards of mobile phones in sace. ., . ., , the innards of mobile phones in sace. ., , ., ., , space. ok, a couple of quick ones. this tapping. _ space. ok, a couple of quick ones. this tapping, what _ space. ok, a couple of quick ones. this tapping, what about _ space. ok, a couple of quick ones. this tapping, what about the i this tapping, what about the tapping? and if they identify it, would they be able to identify where the tapping was coming from? thea;t the tapping was coming from? they could aeo- the tapping was coming from? they could geo- located _ the tapping was coming from? they could geo- located if _ the tapping was coming from? tie: could geo— located if it was consistent, if they thought it was a real and not spurious. so they heard noises with the listening devices they had at the ocean surface. they heard them on tuesday and they heard them yesterday on wednesday and they sent that information off to the us naval experts and said, what do you make of this? and so far the word that has come back described to us by the us coast guard is it is

inconclusive. but never mind that, they are searching those where they think those sounds came from. so they may turn out to be spurious but they may turn out to be spurious but they are looking in those places. 0k, they are looking in those places. ok, jonathan. when does the oxygen run out? . . . ok, jonathan. when does the oxygen run out? . , ., , . ., run out? that is a difficult one. if ou were run out? that is a difficult one. if you were to _ run out? that is a difficult one. if you were to take _ run out? that is a difficult one. if you were to take the _ run out? that is a difficult one. if i you were to take the straightforward timeline of i think it was 96 hours, it brings you to a roundabout now by the next few hours. ok. it brings you to a roundabout now by the next few hours.— the next few hours. ok, thank you. jonathan amos. — the next few hours. ok, thank you. jonathan amos, it _ the next few hours. ok, thank you. jonathan amos, it is _ the next few hours. ok, thank you. jonathan amos, it is 9.51. - the next few hours. ok, thank you. jonathan amos, it is 9.51. we i the next few hours. ok, thank you. jonathan amos, it is 9.51. we are l jonathan amos, it is 9.51. we are going to carry on the discussion about interest rate rises, the announcement at midday from the bank of england monetary committee. what about your own personal economies? alison in bedfordshire and amanda in redding and john in your malden and max in london and marcus, not real name, is in leeds. alison, how is it affecting you? what are you feeling at the moment about all this? iii.

at the moment about all this? hi, nic , at the moment about all this? hi, nicky. good _ at the moment about all this? ti , nicky, good morning. at the moment about all this? hi, nicky, good morning. good i at the moment about all this? hi, i nicky, good morning. good morning. i've been watching _ nicky, good morning. good morning. i've been watching the _ nicky, good morning. good morning. i've been watching the programme, i i've been watching the programme, and felt very sorry for the young guy that phoned in about trying to get a job. fortunately my husband and i both do work. we have always worked. we have five children between us. our two girls we have put through university. it has always been difficult, it has never been an easy ride, but this is something unprecedented for us. the changes that we have seen since the gas and electric bills have gone up, since now this mortgage rate is relentlessly, it is changing our lives completely to the point that it may be a possibility that we are actually going to have to sell our home and pay back what we owe on it and move somewhere much cheaper and that means moving away which is not really conducive without children being around here, even though they are grown up, really life changing,

unless something changes quite quickly. unless something changes quite cuickl . ,, unless something changes quite cuickl . , , ,., unless something changes quite cuickl. ,, . ., , quickly. unless something changes uuite quickly. unless something changes quite quickly- _ quickly. unless something changes quite quickly- do — quickly. unless something changes quite quickly. do you _ quickly. unless something changes quite quickly. do you want - quickly. unless something changes quite quickly. do you want to i quickly. unless something changes quite quickly. do you want to pick. quite quickly. do you want to pick that up, amanda, in redding? hi, amanda. the hi. that up, amanda, in redding? hi, amanda- the— that up, amanda, in redding? hi, amanda. the hi, good morning. my situation is — amanda. the hi, good morning. my situation is not _ amanda. the hi, good morning. my situation is not nearly _ amanda. the hi, good morning. my situation is not nearly as _ amanda. the hi, good morning. my situation is not nearly as serious i situation is not nearly as serious as your— situation is not nearly as serious as your last— situation is not nearly as serious as your last caller. and i really feel for— as your last caller. and i really feel for her. although i am retired and i_ feel for her. although i am retired and i have — feel for her. although i am retired and i have a — feel for her. although i am retired and i have a small mortgage, but obviously— and i have a small mortgage, but obviously since this interest rate increase — obviously since this interest rate increase started my mortgage has actually— increase started my mortgage has actually gone up by a factor of six. i'm actually gone up by a factor of six. i'm on— actually gone up by a factor of six. i'm on a _ actually gone up by a factor of six. i'm on a fixed income. i'd like to understand _ i'm on a fixed income. i'd like to understand why the government is not increasing _ understand why the government is not increasing vat instead of interest rates _ increasing vat instead of interest rates because in my simple mind that way those _ rates because in my simple mind that way those who are spending will pay the price. _ way those who are spending will pay the price, not those who are already on their— the price, not those who are already on their knees due to increased rent and mortgage costs. and also through vat. , , ., , and mortgage costs. and also through vat. , , ,,

and mortgage costs. and also through vat. , of and mortgage costs. and also through vat-— of the i vat. they will stop spending. of the government — vat. they will stop spending. of the government would _ vat. they will stop spending. of the government would get _ vat. they will stop spending. of the government would get money i vat. they will stop spending. of the government would get money back | vat. they will stop spending. of the i government would get money back from those who— government would get money back from those who can and persist in spending. some economists will say that is— spending. some economists will say that is eminently sensible and some will say— that is eminently sensible and some will say that is eminently insane. if something can be eminently insane. alison, tell us about the actual budgetary shifts you had to make in your world.— make in your world. everything is chanced. make in your world. everything is changed- we _ make in your world. everything is changed. we were _ make in your world. everything is changed. we were never- make in your world. everything is changed. we were never sort i make in your world. everything is changed. we were never sort of. changed. we were never sort of really affluent people. we have always had to watch the pennies. but you know, we used to go out for sunday lunch, perhaps once a month, we used to perhaps have a takeaway. it is not important in the grand scheme of things. it is it is not important in the grand scheme of things.— it is not important in the grand scheme of things. it is the little thin . s in scheme of things. it is the little things in life. _ scheme of things. it is the little things in life. just _ scheme of things. it is the little things in life. just little - scheme of things. it is the little things in life. just little things l things in life. just little things that make _ things in life. just little things that make life _ things in life. just little things that make life worth - things in life. just little things that make life worth living. i things in life. just little things i that make life worth living. little treats. they are not massive. we have had holidays but we have not had a holiday abroad for years. we can perhaps get a few days camping if we are lucky. i am 56, camping is

not conducive with being 56. i laugh about it and i love our camping holidays. and there are people who can't eat, they cannot heat their homes. 50 i'm very aware that we are a lot better off as my mother taught me, there is always people that are worse off than yourself. i always try and think of that and we do try and make the best of what we have got. but we are just a normalfamilyjust of what we have got. but we are just a normal familyjust trying to survive, ourshopping a normal familyjust trying to survive, our shopping habits have changed, we only buy what we need, we don't buy any luxuries now. you know, it is really difficult. your mental health state, i'm not good with that phrase, but itjust makes you think, what are we going to do next, what is coming next? why make all the time. to get on a secure footing. it all the time. to get on a secure footinu. .., , ., i. all the time. to get on a secure footinu. .., , ., ,, ., footing. it comes into your mind all the time.

footing. it comes into your mind all the time- it — footing. it comes into your mind all the time. it never— footing. it comes into your mind all the time. it never leaves _ footing. it comes into your mind all the time. it never leaves your i footing. it comes into your mind all| the time. it never leaves your mind. my husband — the time. it never leaves your mind. my husband was _ the time. it never leaves your mind. my husband was talking _ the time. it never leaves your mind. my husband was talking this - the time. it never leaves your mind. i my husband was talking this morning, he teaches at a referral school, he does a really greatjob for some of these kids and they were talking about an end of term, you know the summer holidays are coming up, and end of term little get together with the other staff. there is no way that he will be able to go. there are so many social things that they do and there is no way they will be able to find the extra 50 or £60 it is going to cost. there is no way he will be able to go. i find that really sad for a man that works really sad for a man that works really hard and does such a great job. really hard and does such a great 'ob. ., , . , , really hard and does such a great 'ob. .,, ., , , ., job. people are being hit very hard here who never _ job. people are being hit very hard here who never thought _ job. people are being hit very hard here who never thought they i job. people are being hit very hard i here who never thought they would. that's the thing about all this. pushed to their limits.- that's the thing about all this. pushed to their limits. yeah, at whatever level. _ pushed to their limits. yeah, at whatever level. amanda, i pushed to their limits. yeah, at whatever level. amanda, the i pushed to their limits. yeah, at - whatever level. amanda, the mortgage has gone up sixfold, you said. absolutely. when you are on a fixed

income because you are retired you have no latitude, you can't work more hours, you can't top it up from somewhere, it is a fixed income, so yes, it has a massive impact. the temptation _ yes, it has a massive impact. the temptation to _ yes, it has a massive impact. the temptation to dip into the pension? absolutely, yes. certainly i'm looking at the monies i have invested that contributes to that pension and whether i should be taking that down. but of course if you start taking those actions, then you start taking those actions, then you are in a road to nowhere, aren't you? so it is really difficult, especially when there is no way you can increase your income to know how to deal with it. we can increase your income to know how to deal with it— to deal with it. we are bringing on max and marcus _ to deal with it. we are bringing on max and marcus and _ to deal with it. we are bringing on max and marcus and john. - to deal with it. we are bringing on max and marcus and john. hi, - to deal with it. we are bringing on - max and marcus and john. hi, marcus, in new malden. hello, everybody is welcome. ., ~ , ., , . in new malden. hello, everybody is welcome. ., ~ , . ., welcome. thank you very much for havin: welcome. thank you very much for having me — welcome. thank you very much for having me on _ welcome. thank you very much for having me on your— welcome. thank you very much for having me on your show. - welcome. thank you very much for| having me on your show. pleasure. i'd like to put— having me on your show. pleasure. i'd like to put my —

having me on your show. pleasure. i'd like to put my case _ having me on your show. pleasure. i'd like to put my case across - having me on your show. pleasure. i'd like to put my case across four i i'd like to put my case across four people who are saving who have saved them money for years and they have no return on it, old age pensioners who have saved towards their pensions getting no returns on it. instead of living on their interest they are now having to use their savings and their savings have dwindled and they are all struggling. nobody seems to be mentioning that.— struggling. nobody seems to be mentioning that. we'll of course, there would _ mentioning that. we'll of course, there would be _ mentioning that. we'll of course, there would be increased - mentioning that. we'll of course, i there would be increased annuities and pensions but there is less that you can buy with your increased annuity, so it's swings and roundabouts. john, you have more to say and i'd like to come back to you. i'vejust seen say and i'd like to come back to you. i've just seen the clock and its one minute before ten o'clock. so don't go anywhere. we also have amanda, alison and max coming up and marcus, too. and it is important that we hear from you to tell us how this is affecting you. this is the whole point of this, that we hear from you out there, you are the experts. pensions, interesting point, at the end of may 22 a

£100,000 pension pot could have bought an annuity of £5,816, whereas in may 2023 the same amount can buy an annuity of 6791 per year, that's £946 extra. but of course, as i said, with bills and food and inflation going up and up and up, that's not actually going to get very far. and there is another issue as to how much the interest rate rises get handed on to savers. some cric shenanigans. 08085 909693. please get in touch and text on 85058 because it's all about hearing from you. we will hear from the bank of england in good time, high noon. but right now it's about you and it's time for the news.

and you know what we are talking about this morning, we are talking about this morning, we are talking about interest rates. is it a right to raise rates again. it will be the 13th time in a row. interest rates were 0.1% in december 2021. remember those heady days? here we are in june 2023, predicted to go up to at least 4.75, maybe even 5%. more and more people are falling on that fixed rate cliff, more and more people are being affected by this if they have tracker mortgages. maybe you fixed for ten years. well, good on you! get in touch. are they right to raise rates?

and of course we will tell you when chris whitty is taking the stand, he is not taking the stand, he is taking a very comfortable chair, as they have been, at the covid inquiry and we will bring it to you but we are giving this important conversation going right now command right now here is the news from karishma patel. you, nikki. as we have been hearing on the show... the bank of england is expected to raise interest rates again at midday — for the 13th time in a row. it's trying to curb rising prices after figures — published yesterday — showed that inflation stalled last month — at 8.7%. a specialist robot is on its way to the north atlantic — to help with the search for a missing submersible with five people on board. the titan sub was on its way to see the titanic wreck. estimates suggest oxygen could run out — in a few hours. king charles has said it's "crucially important" to recognise the "immeasurable" difference made

to britain by people who came from the caribbean on the empire windrush. services are taking places across the country to mark 75 years since the ship arrived. elon musk and mark zuckerberg have agreed to hold a cage fight. the two tech billionaires agreed it in a twitter exchange. mr musk — who's 52 — said he "almost never works out" — while 39—year—old mr zuckerberg has recently won jiu jitsu tournaments. twitter hasn't commented. almost 1.4 million of us, 690,000 of that 1.4 million are under 40 as well, will see disposable incomes fall by 20% in the financial year. inflation, we were on that yesterday talking about it, today it is

interest rates. we havejulian jessop to talk to very soon, independent economist, fellow at the institute of economic affairs. julian, good morning. and claire barrett, consider editor at the financial times. barrett, consider editor at the financialtimes. good barrett, consider editor at the financial times. good morning to you —— micro kurt zouma editor. the hi. -- micro kurt zouma editor. the hi, lovel to —— micro kurt zouma editor. the hi, lovely to hear from you. -- micro kurt zouma editor. the hi, lovely to hear from you. are - -- micro kurt zouma editor. the hi, lovely to hear from you. are good . lovely to hear from you. are good to have our lovely to hear from you. are good to have your brain _ lovely to hear from you. are good to have your brain is _ lovely to hear from you. are good to have your brain is on-board - lovely to hear from you. are good to have your brain is on-board and - lovely to hear from you. are good to l have your brain is on-board and good have your brain is on—board and good to havejohn's brain. and max and marcus. we will come to those calls and then come onto your views. i might have to call off and call back another time.— might have to call off and call back another time. was that you, julian? 0h, another time. was that you, julian? oh, that another time. was that you, julian? oh. that was _ another time. was that you, julian? oh, that was max. _ another time. was that you, julian? oh, that was max. go _ another time. was that you, julian? oh, that was max. go on, _ another time. was that you, julian? oh, that was max. go on, do - another time. was that you, julian? oh, that was max. go on, do it - another time. was that you, julian? | oh, that was max. go on, do it now. all right, very quickly, nikki. and also thoughts with the families of those on the submersible i can't stop thinking about it. a very quick point about the talent and leadership. it is extremely important to have trust in the integrity and the absolutely reputation of those in charge. we have a governor of the bank of england at the moment andrew bailey

who has probably got the most difficultjob in the world and i'm sure he would admit it. however, there are questions about his leadership. i was watching a panorama not too long ago where he was chairman of the sca and there were questions over the fca is an organisation turning a blind eye to boilermaker scams and he was in charge at the time. —— chairman of the fca. you have got to know who is in charge and whether you have trust that they can guide you through a situation. fist that they can guide you through a situation. �* ., , situation. at the time of his appointment. _ situation. at the time of his appointment, andy - situation. at the time of his| appointment, andy haldane situation. at the time of his - appointment, andy haldane was the preferred choice of certain people in government. find preferred choice of certain people in government.— preferred choice of certain people in rovernment. �* ~ . , in government. and mark carney was robabl in government. and mark carney was probably the — in government. and mark carney was probably the best _ in government. and mark carney was probably the best chairman - in government. and mark carney was probably the best chairman of- in government. and mark carney was probably the best chairman of the . probably the best chairman of the bank of england we have ever had and he was a canadian. the point is is that you have got to get the right people in the most importantjobs. what we are very good at in this country is questioning leadership, and whilst you can't change the leadership of the bank of england right now at this point in time, it does beg the question, you know, at such a crucial time when it is so

important to people's jobs, such a crucial time when it is so important to people'sjobs, you know, i'm envisaging that this interest rate will directly lead to a significant rise in unemployment. i am a people employer and i am already recognising that now, the changing landscape of the sector that i work in.— people of calibre is what you want. that was my point. i appreciate you taking the time to listen to that. that is good and i appreciate you calling out that you had to go so i was able to come to you! laughter yelena cai qi is a. cheers to you. john, i cut you off on full flow just before 10am. feel free to finish your point. i just before 10am. feel free to finish your point.— just before 10am. feel free to finish your point. i was saying it should be _ finish your point. i was saying it should be a _ finish your point. i was saying it should be a fair— finish your point. i was saying it should be a fair society. - finish your point. i was saying it should be a fair society. i - finish your point. i was saying it should be a fair society. i think| should be a fair society. i think the government has totally mishandled everything. savers should get a fair rate and borrowers should get a fair rate and borrowers should get a fair rate. it is a problem of having too much money because of

cheap interest rates. there is so much money it is forcing up inflation and forcing up the prices of houses. i remember back when i bought my first house, interest rates, i think it was nigel lawson, put them up to i6% because the house prices were going through the roof. and that cured the problem. temporarily. and that cured the problem. temporarily-_ and that cured the problem. temporarily. and that cured the problem. temoraril . ., , ., ., , temporarily. now it is totally free for all. there _ temporarily. now it is totally free for all. there were _ temporarily. now it is totally free for all. there were those - temporarily. now it is totally free for all. there were those days - temporarily. now it is totally free j for all. there were those days but now we are _ for all. there were those days but now we are where _ for all. there were those days but now we are where we _ for all. there were those days but now we are where we are. - for all. there were those days but now we are where we are. thankl for all. there were those days but - now we are where we are. thank you. marcus... sorry. just now we are where we are. thank you. marcus--- sorry-— marcus... sorry. just wanted to say, the are marcus... sorry. just wanted to say, they are all _ marcus... sorry. just wanted to say, they are all blaming _ marcus... sorry. just wanted to say, they are all blaming this _ marcus... sorry. just wanted to say, they are all blaming this ukraine - they are all blaming this ukraine thing and covid and thing and it has nothing to do with that. it is because of the low interest rates forcing more money into the market, causing the inflation. just forcing more money into the market, causing the inflation.— causing the inflation. just going to write that down _ causing the inflation. just going to write that down so _ causing the inflation. just going to write that down so we _ causing the inflation. just going to write that down so we can - causing the inflation. just going to write that down so we can put - causing the inflation. just going to write that down so we can put it i causing the inflation. just going to j write that down so we can put it to our economist. low interest rates forcing many into the market, causing inflation. max in london, he

came and went and he was good. marcus in leeds. hi, marcus. hello. how are you — marcus in leeds. hi, marcus. hello. how are you feeling? _ marcus in leeds. hi, marcus. hello. how are you feeling? i _ marcus in leeds. hi, marcus. hello. how are you feeling? i am... - marcus in leeds. hi, marcus. hello. | how are you feeling? i am... well... i am... disappointed _ how are you feeling? i am... well... i am... disappointed at _ how are you feeling? i am... well... i am... disappointed at some - how are you feeling? i am... well... i am... disappointed at some of - how are you feeling? i am... well... i am... disappointed at some of the | i am... disappointed at some of the calls this morning. i can completely empathise and understand. i'm from a very poor background and i have to bring myself up largely on my own and get where i have got myself. i have a business employing people and i feel i am have a business employing people and ifeel i am doing my bit have a business employing people and i feel i am doing my bit but when you hear people this morning, ijust feel that people need to put things into perspective and develop resilience. i think since covid had out and working from home, people have become a bit kind of demanding on the government and expecting on everything to be handed to them. if there is a problem, if wages go up, what can you do, or what can the bank of england by the government do to help? because it is all negativity. i havejust worked out that there is an average price

increase, if people are really struggling to pay their mortgage, there is an increase in value on their house, approximately £74,000. that is what it has gone up in the last two years on their house. and so possibly worth more if you have owned it for longer but ijust think people need to look at what they can do themselves rather than just... what can they do themselves if all of their money will be swallowed up in paying their mortgage? what can they do?! i in paying their mortgage? what can the do?! ., in paying their mortgage? what can the do?! . ., ., , they do?! i have heard about people not bein: they do?! i have heard about people not being able _ they do?! i have heard about people not being able to _ they do?! i have heard about people not being able to find _ they do?! i have heard about people not being able to find work. - they do?! i have heard about people not being able to find work. the - not being able to find work. the figures are right that we are in record employment. if you have a physical —— unless you have a disability there is no reason you can't find work. if you need an extra job, take a bucket of water to the traffic lights and wash car windows, that is what you do. you don'tjust... you don'tjust kind of say how bad life is. you look at what you can do rather than what everyone else can do to make your life feel better. in comparison to what is going on in the world, we

actually have a really fortunate life here with the nhs and we are not in a war—torn country. generally we have so much to be happy for in our life but it is just all negativity this morning that i have heard on the radio and itjust rankles me, that's all. heard on the radio and it 'ust rankles me, that's all. yeah... we don't rankles me, that's all. yeah. .. we don't know— rankles me, that's all. yeah... we don't know how _ rankles me, that's all. yeah... we don't know how lucky _ rankles me, that's all. yeah... we don't know how lucky we - rankles me, that's all. yeah... we don't know how lucky we are, - rankles me, that's all. yeah... we don't know how lucky we are, in i rankles me, that's all. yeah... we don't know how lucky we are, in a| don't know how lucky we are, in a sense. ~ , ,., y don't know how lucky we are, in a sense. ~ ,,., , ., don't know how lucky we are, in a sense. ~ , , ., ~ ., sense. absolutely! you know, the eo - le in sense. absolutely! you know, the people in ukraine _ sense. absolutely! you know, the people in ukraine are _ sense. absolutely! you know, the people in ukraine are not- sense. absolutely! you know, the people in ukraine are not worried | people in ukraine are not worried about interest rates going up, they are worried if they are going to have a house left to live in and it is just, have a house left to live in and it isjust, come on! you know? let's put things into perspective. if you need to earn more money, ny money. look at what you can do, look at exactly what more you can do. if you need to work on night shift, work till i! need to work on night shift, work till 11 o'clock, that is what you don'tjust cry, i can't get a job, life is terrible, mortgage rates are going up, you know? the chances are your house has hugely in value if

your house has hugely in value if you are struggling to pay mortgage rates. —— gone up hugely in value. no one is talking about that. we are very lucky in this society. i suppose that is true. claire barrett? we are the fifth, sixth biggest economy in the world, as well. , , , ., , well. very interesting points there. extremely so- _ well. very interesting points there. extremely so. about _ well. very interesting points there. extremely so. about equity - extremely so. about equity especially _ extremely so. about equity especially of _ extremely so. about equity especially of those - extremely so. about equity especially of those who - extremely so. about equity l especially of those who have extremely so. about equity - especially of those who have bought before _ especially of those who have bought before this big run—up in prices, it really— before this big run—up in prices, it really started to rise. this is a bil really started to rise. this is a big facton _ really started to rise. this is a big factor. the government saying we cannot_ big factor. the government saying we cannot help _ big factor. the government saying we cannot help mortgage lenders. the tax bills, _ cannot help mortgage lenders. the tax bills, the interest bill is on the government debt will rule that out, certainly, although they say it will boost — out, certainly, although they say it will boost inflation. what we need to think_ will boost inflation. what we need to think about either solution is that the — to think about either solution is that the banks can offer. they are already— that the banks can offer. they are already saying that people who act may be _ already saying that people who act may be in — already saying that people who act may be in some situations like call if you _ may be in some situations like call if you have — may be in some situations like call if you have heard from, they should -et if you have heard from, they should get in _ if you have heard from, they should get in touch — if you have heard from, they should get in touch and discuss the options _ get in touch and discuss the options. it is really important to make _ options. it is really important to make people aware that just talking to your _

make people aware that just talking to your lender will not affect your credit _ to your lender will not affect your credit score. see what they could do. credit score. see what they could do one — credit score. see what they could do one of— credit score. see what they could do. one of the available options is moving _ do. one of the available options is moving on— do. one of the available options is moving on to an interest only deal. making _ moving on to an interest only deal. making that compulsory for lenders to enable that?— to enable that? yes, some at the moment they _ to enable that? yes, some at the moment they have _ to enable that? yes, some at the moment they have to _ to enable that? yes, some at the moment they have to engage, i to enable that? yes, some at the l moment they have to engage, they have to _ moment they have to engage, they have to offer forbearance but the forbearance they offer is up to the individual's circumstances and the discretion— individual's circumstances and the discretion of the bank. we have had rache!— discretion of the bank. we have had rachel reeves, the shadow chancellor, today saying that interest _ chancellor, today saying that interest only should be a bigger part of— interest only should be a bigger part of the solution, particularly from _ part of the solution, particularly from the — part of the solution, particularly from the old deck bias we have heard from the old deck bias we have heard from today _ from the old deck bias we have heard from today. they still have a mortgage but are relying on it may be a pension income to pay that off. there _ be a pension income to pay that off. there. retirement interest only mortgages have become a bigger feature _ mortgages have become a bigger feature of the market and of course equity— feature of the market and of course equity release which gets a very bad name _ equity release which gets a very bad name in _ equity release which gets a very bad name in the 90s and early 2000 but now has— name in the 90s and early 2000 but now has been reformed, many people are using _ now has been reformed, many people are using that to take equity out of their houses. it will reduce the amount— their houses. it will reduce the amount of— their houses. it will reduce the amount of money you can leave as an

inheritance _ amount of money you can leave as an inheritance or— amount of money you can leave as an inheritance or help your children with. _ inheritance or help your children with. but— inheritance or help your children with, but nevertheless there is equity— with, but nevertheless there is equity that many people have in their— equity that many people have in their homes that can be accessed. you still— their homes that can be accessed. you still have to pay the interest on that. ., ., , i. ., on that. you are, but you get to sta in on that. you are, but you get to stay in your— on that. you are, but you get to stay in your home _ on that. you are, but you get to stay in your home and - on that. you are, but you get to stay in your home and i - on that. you are, but you get to stay in your home and i think. on that. you are, but you get to l stay in your home and i think this is the _ stay in your home and i think this is the biggest worry for people. they— is the biggest worry for people. they think, well, i have lived in this place — they think, well, i have lived in this place for 20, 25 years, still have _ this place for 20, 25 years, still have some _ this place for 20, 25 years, still have some debt to pay off on it. how can i be _ have some debt to pay off on it. how can i be secure for the rest of my retirement? _ can i be secure for the rest of my retirement? there are an awful lot of checks— retirement? there are an awful lot of checks and guarantees with these kinds _ of checks and guarantees with these kinds of— of checks and guarantees with these kinds of products nowadays to make sure that _ kinds of products nowadays to make sure that people can do that and that they— sure that people can do that and that they are not going to be left, the family— that they are not going to be left, the family will not be left with large — the family will not be left with large bills. but it does mean that people _ large bills. but it does mean that people will not feel as wealthy but, nevertheless, it could be more as an escape _ nevertheless, it could be more as an escape valve — nevertheless, it could be more as an escape valve for those who don't have _ escape valve for those who don't have the — escape valve for those who don't have the cash flow right now while rates _ have the cash flow right now while rates are _ have the cash flow right now while rates are high and remaining high for longer— rates are high and remaining high for longer than before, to manage their day—to—day expenses. what their day-to-day expenses. what about tax relief? _ their day-to-day expenses. what about tax relief? again, - their day-to-day expenses. what about tax relief? again, i-

their day-to-day expenses. what i about tax relief? again, i mentioned the pressures _ about tax relief? again, i mentioned the pressures on _ about tax relief? again, i mentioned the pressures on the _ about tax relief? again, i mentioned the pressures on the government, i the pressures on the government, everybody— the pressures on the government, everybody wants tax cuts but the amount — everybody wants tax cuts but the amount of — everybody wants tax cuts but the amount of government borrowing by one measure hit a new record high yesterday— one measure hit a new record high yesterday and all of these rate rises _ yesterday and all of these rate rises also _ yesterday and all of these rate rises also increase the debt burden on the _ rises also increase the debt burden on the government, reducing scope for the _ on the government, reducing scope for the politicians to pass on any tax rises — for the politicians to pass on any tax rises i— for the politicians to pass on any tax rises. i thought that the point _ tax rises. i thought that the point i_ tax rises. i thought that the point... i think it was alice who you had — point... i think it was alice who you had from earlier. the point she made _ you had from earlier. the point she made about— you had from earlier. the point she made about interest rate rises only hitting, _ made about interest rate rises only hitting, you — made about interest rate rises only hitting, you know, people who are rolling _ hitting, you know, people who are rolling off— hitting, you know, people who are rolling off at a rate, whereas most people _ rolling off at a rate, whereas most people these days are on a fixed rates _ people these days are on a fixed rates so— people these days are on a fixed rates. so there is a big delay in passing — rates. so there is a big delay in passing on _ rates. so there is a big delay in passing on that pain into the economy. why don't we raise vat? well, _ economy. why don't we raise vat? well, you _ economy. why don't we raise vat? well, you know, it is an interesting idea but— well, you know, it is an interesting idea but of— well, you know, it is an interesting idea but of course the bank of england — idea but of course the bank of england is independence, they decide interest— england is independence, they decide interest rates separately of what the politicians they, whereas things like the _ the politicians they, whereas things like the rate of taxation and vat is decided _ like the rate of taxation and vat is decided by— like the rate of taxation and vat is decided by the treasury and the chancellor and of course it is one of those — chancellor and of course it is one of those manifesto pledges of the current— of those manifesto pledges of the current government that they would not raise _ current government that they would not raise income tax, vat or

national— not raise income tax, vat or national insurance, although clearly they broke their promise on the last one. they broke their promise on the last one but _ they broke their promise on the last one but i _ they broke their promise on the last one. but i do think that people who are being _ one. but i do think that people who are being squeezed already because their rates— are being squeezed already because their rates have expired, and are being _ their rates have expired, and are being squeezed more as the interest rates go _ being squeezed more as the interest rates go up, hating these people more _ rates go up, hating these people more is — rates go up, hating these people more is not achieving that objective -- hurting— more is not achieving that objective —— hurting these people more is not reducing _ —— hurting these people more is not reducing the — —— hurting these people more is not reducing the amount of demand because — reducing the amount of demand because it is very concentrated, that pain. — because it is very concentrated, that pain, and people who by now i facing _ that pain, and people who by now i facing huge financial difficulties and that— facing huge financial difficulties and that is concerning. yes, yeah, marcus, and that is concerning. yes, yeah, marcus. are _ and that is concerning. yes, yeah, marcus. are you — and that is concerning. yes, yeah, marcus, are you still— and that is concerning. yes, yeah, marcus, are you still there? - and that is concerning. yes, yeah, marcus, are you still there? yes. | marcus, are you still there? yes. you have — marcus, are you still there? yes. you have got _ marcus, are you still there? yes. you have got them _ marcus, are you still there? yes. you have got them going. - marcus, are you still there? ya; you have got them going. your plan will contribute to inflation, the you might want people to have less money and this one, discussed in lease. nobody will see your point, look how lucky we are. nobody will say that is disgusting. that is true and we should stop ourselves and think about that. but this text. disgusting from marcus in leeds,

people are already doing what he says and the banks just take more and more from them, that is from terry in bathgate. i and more from them, that is from terry in bathgate.— and more from them, that is from terry in bathgate. idisagree. iam cominu terry in bathgate. idisagree. iam coming from _ terry in bathgate. idisagree. iam coming from someone _ terry in bathgate. idisagree. iam coming from someone who - terry in bathgate. idisagree. iam coming from someone who has - terry in bathgate. i disagree. i am| coming from someone who has had terry in bathgate. i disagree. i am - coming from someone who has had to work and pull his sleeves up. ijust think we sometimes live in a society where everything is catastrophic. we can testify is over things rather than stop and look at what we can do to address it. than stop and look at what we can do to address it— to address it. people do every niaht, to address it. people do every night. 3m. — to address it. people do every night. 3m. for— to address it. people do every night, 3m, for i _ to address it. people do every night, 3m, for i am, _ to address it. people do every night, 3m, for| am, how- to address it. people do every night, 3m, for i am, how are i to address it. people do every - night, 3m, for i am, how are they going to pay their kids. that is catastrophising. we can make eve hinu that is catastrophising. we can make everything sound _ that is catastrophising. we can make everything sound catastrophic - that is catastrophising. we can make everything sound catastrophic but - that is catastrophising. we can make everything sound catastrophic but i i everything sound catastrophic but i choose not to. if rates increase, i look at what i can do, not what you what the government by the bank of england can do, what i can do. that

sets me up to deal with many problems and i am not saying i am the most sorted individual but i try to work at things when they come up and i think your whole show, there has been a deluge of negativity. you know, i can't cope. look at what you have in your life! look at the fact your house is likely to have gone up at least £74,000 in the last two years! and so if you do have to cash it in or send it to auction, that is what you are likely to get. nobody is talking about that.— is talking about that. rachel and stace . is talking about that. rachel and stacey. hello. _ is talking about that. rachel and stacey. hello. hi. _ is talking about that. rachel and stacey. hello. hi. was— is talking about that. rachel and stacey. hello. hi. was at- is talking about that. rachel and stacey. hello. hi. was at staceyj stacey. hello. hi. was at stacey rachel? sorry. _ stacey. hello. hi. was at stacey rachel? sorry, rachel. - stacey. hello. hi. was at stacey rachel? sorry, rachel. stacey,| stacey. hello. hi. was at stacey i rachel? sorry, rachel. stacey, are ou rachel? sorry, rachel. stacey, are you there? — rachel? sorry, rachel. stacey, are you there? i— rachel? sorry, rachel. stacey, are you there? i am, _ rachel? sorry, rachel. stacey, are you there? i am, i— rachel? sorry, rachel. stacey, are you there? i am, i am _ rachel? sorry, rachel. stacey, are you there? i am, i am here. - rachel? sorry, rachel. stacey, arej you there? i am, i am here. stacey in birmingham. _ you there? i am, i am here. stacey in birmingham. marcus, _ you there? i am, i am here. stacey in birmingham. marcus, you - you there? i am, i am here. stacey in birmingham. marcus, you hear. you there? i am, i am here. stacey- in birmingham. marcus, you hear him, what do you say?— in birmingham. marcus, you hear him, what do you say?- hi, _ in birmingham. marcus, you hear him, what do you say? heiio�*? hi, stacey. what do you say? hello? hi, stacey. sor ,i

what do you say? hello? hi, stacey. sorry, i lost you. what _ what do you say? hello? hi, stacey. sorry, i lost you. what did _ what do you say? hello? hi, stacey. sorry, i lost you. what did you - what do you say? hello? hi, stacey. sorry, i lost you. what did you say. i sorry, i lost you. what did you say. what _ sorry, i lost you. what did you say. what you _ sorry, i lost you. what did you say. what you say— sorry, i lost you. what did you say. what you say to _ sorry, i lost you. what did you say. what you say to marcus? _ sorry, i lost you. what did you say. what you say to marcus? regarding the rises and _ what you say to marcus? regarding the rises and the _ what you say to marcus? regarding the rises and the cost _ what you say to marcus? regarding the rises and the cost of _ what you say to marcus? regarding the rises and the cost of living, - the rises and the cost of living, honestly. — the rises and the cost of living, honestly. i— the rises and the cost of living, honestly, i don't _ the rises and the cost of living, honestly, idon't know- the rises and the cost of living, honestly, i don't know how- the rises and the cost of living, i honestly, i don't know how people are affording — honestly, i don't know how people are affording it. _ honestly, i don't know how people are affording it. i— honestly, i don't know how people are affording it. i have _ honestly, i don't know how people are affording it. i have previously. are affording it. i have previously message — are affording it. i have previously message in _ are affording it. i have previously message in i_ are affording it. i have previously message in. i am _ are affording it. i have previously message in. i am a _ are affording it. i have previously message in. lam a nurse, - are affording it. i have previously message in. lam a nurse, i- are affording it. i have previously message in. lam a nurse, iwork full time — message in. lam a nurse, iwork full time i— message in. lam a nurse, iwork full time i work— message in. lam a nurse, iwork full time, i work on _ message in. lam a nurse, iwork full time, i work on top - message in. lam a nurse, iwork full time, i work on top of - message in. lam a nurse, iwork full time, i work on top of my. full time, i work on top of my hours. — full time, i work on top of my hours. my— full time, i work on top of my hours, my partner— full time, i work on top of my hours, my partner works - full time, i work on top of my hours, my partner works fulll full time, i work on top of my- hours, my partner works full time and we _ hours, my partner works full time and we are — hours, my partner works full time and we are really— hours, my partner works full time and we are really feeling - hours, my partner works full time and we are really feeling the - hours, my partner works full time i and we are really feeling the pinch. we are _ and we are really feeling the pinch. we are currently looking _ and we are really feeling the pinch. we are currently looking at - and we are really feeling the pinch. we are currently looking at 1500 i we are currently looking at 1500 pounds — we are currently looking at 1500 pounds per _ we are currently looking at 1500 pounds per month— we are currently looking at 1500 pounds per month on— we are currently looking at 1500 pounds per month on our- we are currently looking at 1500 - pounds per month on our mortgage. we are not— pounds per month on our mortgage. we are not top— pounds per month on our mortgage. we are not top earners, _ pounds per month on our mortgage. we are not top earners, but _ pounds per month on our mortgage. we are not top earners, but how _ pounds per month on our mortgage. we are not top earners, but how people - are not top earners, but how people are not top earners, but how people are surviving — are not top earners, but how people are surviving who _ are not top earners, but how people are surviving who own _ are not top earners, but how people are surviving who own less - are not top earners, but how people are surviving who own less than - are not top earners, but how people are surviving who own less than us, | are surviving who own less than us, i don't _ are surviving who own less than us, i don't know— are surviving who own less than us, idon't know how— are surviving who own less than us, i don't know how this _ are surviving who own less than us, i don't know how this can _ are surviving who own less than us, i don't know how this can continue. | i don't know how this can continue. my heart _ i don't know how this can continue. my heart goes _ i don't know how this can continue. my heart goes out _ i don't know how this can continue. my heart goes out to _ i don't know how this can continue. my heart goes out to them. - i don't know how this can continue. my heart goes out to them. rachel, how are you — my heart goes out to them. rachel, how are you surviving? _ my heart goes out to them. rachel, how are you surviving? i _ my heart goes out to them. rachel, how are you surviving? i think - my heart goes out to them. rachel, how are you surviving? i think i - how are you surviving? i think i described _ how are you surviving? i think i described it _ how are you surviving? i think i described it as _ how are you surviving? i think i described it as an _ how are you surviving? i think i described it as an elastic- how are you surviving? i think i described it as an elastic band | how are you surviving? i think i . described it as an elastic band that i am waiting to snap. really, i completely disagree with marcus and your adviser that rang up and i am

ina different your adviser that rang up and i am in a different situation to the lady who has— in a different situation to the lady who hasjust spoken in a different situation to the lady who has just spoken and in a different situation to the lady who hasjust spoken and i in a different situation to the lady who has just spoken and i actually feel quite — who has just spoken and i actually feel quite guilty about that. my husband — feel quite guilty about that. my husband and i have had, up to now, quite _ husband and i have had, up to now, quite a _ husband and i have had, up to now, quite a comfortable life. my husband has what _ quite a comfortable life. my husband has what is _ quite a comfortable life. my husband has what is considered a very good 'ob. has what is considered a very good job i— has what is considered a very good job. i unfortunately had an accident and i— job. i unfortunately had an accident and i am _ job. i unfortunately had an accident and i am disabled. but 15 years ago, we bought— and i am disabled. but 15 years ago, we bought an old farmhouse and have spent _ we bought an old farmhouse and have spent 15 _ we bought an old farmhouse and have spent 15 years converting it. we have _ spent 15 years converting it. we have just — spent 15 years converting it. we have just spent all of my savings, all of— have just spent all of my savings, all of our— have just spent all of my savings, all of our savings converting the downstairs toilet to an adapted one for my— downstairs toilet to an adapted one for my needs. we are now in a situation — for my needs. we are now in a situation that's love that lady advising _ situation that's love that lady advising people to go on interest only. _ advising people to go on interest only. that — advising people to go on interest only, that is what we did. 0ur mortgage _ only, that is what we did. 0ur mortgage this week has now gone up by £950~ _ mortgage this week has now gone up b £950. ., , ., ., mortgage this week has now gone up by £950-_ to _ mortgage this week has now gone up by £950-_ to give - mortgage this week has now gone up by £950._ to give you i by £950. that is a lot. to give you two of our —

by £950. that is a lot. to give you two of our bills, _ by £950. that is a lot. to give you two of our bills, an _ by £950. that is a lot. to give you two of our bills, an increase - by £950. that is a lot. to give you two of our bills, an increase of- by £950. that is a lot. to give you j two of our bills, an increase of the last year. — two of our bills, an increase of the last year. on— two of our bills, an increase of the last year, on our electricity it is now— last year, on our electricity it is now £600 _ last year, on our electricity it is now £600 per month and our mortgage has gone _ now £600 per month and our mortgage has gone up _ now £600 per month and our mortgage has gone up by £950. so if you just add those _ has gone up by £950. so if you just add those two figures together... the idea — add those two figures together... the idea of— add those two figures together... the idea of having disposable income has completely disappeared. i have a husband _ has completely disappeared. i have a husband who is in, as i say, a very good _ husband who is in, as i say, a very good job, — husband who is in, as i say, a very good job, who is now doing extra work— good job, who is now doing extra work on — good job, who is now doing extra work on the side to earn enough to 'ust work on the side to earn enough to just get— work on the side to earn enough to just get us— work on the side to earn enough to just get us bite with the mortgage. and you _ just get us bite with the mortgage. and you are caller, marcus, saying, yeah. _ and you are caller, marcus, saying, yeah. you _ and you are caller, marcus, saying, yeah, you have the money, put your house _ yeah, you have the money, put your house on— yeah, you have the money, put your house on the — yeah, you have the money, put your house on the market. yeah, fantastic _ house on the market. yeah, fantastic. who is going to want to buy. _ fantastic. who is going to want to buy, in— fantastic. who is going to want to buy, in this — fantastic. who is going to want to buy, in this market, our house, when they are _ buy, in this market, our house, when they are going to look at... they

are looking — they are going to look at... they are looking at a decent mortgage unless— are looking at a decent mortgage unless they are cash buyers with a fair unless they are cash buyers with a fair bit _ unless they are cash buyers with a fair bit of— unless they are cash buyers with a fair bit of money. they are looking at a decent — fair bit of money. they are looking at a decent mortgage, they will have the same _ at a decent mortgage, they will have the same electricity bill, they will have the — the same electricity bill, they will have the same oil bills, which i through— have the same oil bills, which i through the roof. if you did a check on the _ through the roof. if you did a check on the house in terms of its energy efficiency. — on the house in terms of its energy efficiency. it— on the house in terms of its energy efficiency, it is 350 years old will stop it _ efficiency, it is 350 years old will stop it does not have any energy efficiency — stop it does not have any energy efficiency. so we are in this situation _ efficiency. so we are in this situation where, yeah, we have accepted, — situation where, yeah, we have accepted, we have no choice but to put our— accepted, we have no choice but to put our dream house and the house we have put— put our dream house and the house we have put everything into and raised our children in on the market. but we are _ our children in on the market. but we are then, _ our children in on the market. but we are then, like you said about, you know. — we are then, like you said about, you know. it— we are then, like you said about, you know, it taking away that constant _ you know, it taking away that constant concern. you know, there is

a house _ constant concern. you know, there is a house in— constant concern. you know, there is a house in our— constant concern. you know, there is a house in our village that has been on the _ a house in our village that has been on the market for a year now. heartbreaking. let me throw that to marcus. listen to stacey and rachael and everyone else. that is why people are catastrophising. it is catastrophic for people. the whole way of life is crumbling.— way of life is crumbling. well, i would argue — way of life is crumbling. well, i would argue what _ way of life is crumbling. well, i would argue what is _ way of life is crumbling. well, i i would argue what is catastrophic way of life is crumbling. well, i - would argue what is catastrophic for your interpretation of it. to meet catastrophic is living in ukraine. that is catastrophe. this is not a catastrophe, it is something we still have some control over. i’m still have some control over. i'm sor , still have some control over. i'm sorry. marcus. _ still have some control over. i'm sorry, marcus, what is catastrophic is being — sorry, marcus, what is catastrophic is being somebody who is unable... i mean, _ is being somebody who is unable... i mean. like— is being somebody who is unable... i mean. like i— is being somebody who is unable... i mean, like i say, i have a care 24 hours _ mean, like i say, i have a care 24 hours a _ mean, like i say, i have a care 24 hours a week, _ mean, like i say, i have a care 24 hours a week, i have an adapted part of the _ hours a week, i have an adapted part of the house — hours a week, i have an adapted part of the house i can actually move around — of the house i can actually move around i— of the house i can actually move around. i cannotjust stay in somebody else's house. i can't even somebody else's house. ican't even access— somebody else's house. ican't even access my— somebody else's house. i can't even access my parents' house. the catastrophising is, you know, we...

you know. — catastrophising is, you know, we... you know, what... there is no safety net for— you know, what... there is no safety net for anybody in our sort of... i hate _ net for anybody in our sort of... i hate to _ net for anybody in our sort of... i hate to say— net for anybody in our sort of... i hate to say class or, you know, whatever, _ hate to say class or, you know, whatever, but all i ever hear on the news _ whatever, but all i ever hear on the news is, _ whatever, but all i ever hear on the news is, oh. — whatever, but all i ever hear on the news is, oh, we are doing universal credit— news is, oh, we are doing universal credit this, — news is, oh, we are doing universal credit this, universal credit is that — credit this, universal credit is that i— credit this, universal credit is that i got _ credit this, universal credit is that. i got a text message from the dwp yesterday. helping disabled people _ dwp yesterday. helping disabled people come up to £1300. but obviously my husband has a job, i -et obviously my husband has a job, i get none — obviously my husband has a job, i get none of— obviously my husband has a job, i get none of it. sol obviously my husband has a job, i get none of it. so i get anybody else who — get none of it. so i get anybody else who is on universal credit who is in else who is on universal credit who is in my— else who is on universal credit who is in my position would be able to claim _ is in my position would be able to claim at— is in my position would be able to claim at least 11 benefits. but we can get _ claim at least 11 benefits. but we can get absolutely no help at all. so when — can get absolutely no help at all. so when you say people, you know, people _ so when you say people, you know, people can — so when you say people, you know, people can work, i would give anything _ people can work, i would give anything to be able to work. but i

am sort _ anything to be able to work. but i am sort of— anything to be able to work. but i am sort of sat here taking the guilt because _ am sort of sat here taking the guilt because i— am sort of sat here taking the guilt because i can't do anything! that... sorry. _ because i can't do anything! that... sorry. can _ because i can't do anything! that... sorry. can i — because i can't do anything! that... sorry, can i say, i empathise with you. _ sorry, can i say, i empathise with you. the — sorry, can i say, iempathise with you. the poor— sorry, can i say, i empathise with you. the poor tady— sorry, can i say, i empathise with you, the poor lady talking. - sorry, can i say, i empathise with you, the poor lady talking. i- you, the poor lady talking. i entirely— you, the poor lady talking. i entirely understand - you, the poor lady talking. i entirely understand the - you, the poor lady talking. ii entirely understand the point you, the poor lady talking. i- entirely understand the point you are putting — entirely understand the point you are putting across. _ entirely understand the point you are putting across. because - entirely understand the point you i are putting across. because myself and my— are putting across. because myself and my partner— are putting across. because myself and my partner work— are putting across. because myself and my partner work and _ are putting across. because myself and my partner work and we - are putting across. because myself and my partner work and we have i are putting across. because myself- and my partner work and we have what you would _ and my partner work and we have what you would say— and my partner work and we have what you would say is — and my partner work and we have what you would say is good _ and my partner work and we have what you would say is good jobs _ and my partner work and we have what you would say is good jobs but - and my partner work and we have what you would say is good jobs but even i you would say is good jobs but even now we _ you would say is good jobs but even now we really — you would say is good jobs but even now we really feel _ you would say is good jobs but even now we really feel the _ you would say is good jobs but even now we really feel the pinch. - you would say is good jobs but even now we really feel the pinch. we . now we really feel the pinch. we also don't — now we really feel the pinch. we also don't receive _ now we really feel the pinch. we also don't receive any— now we really feel the pinch. we also don't receive any help - now we really feel the pinch. we also don't receive any help and i | also don't receive any help and i think— also don't receive any help and i think it — also don't receive any help and i think it is — also don't receive any help and i think it is also _ also don't receive any help and i think it is also an _ also don't receive any help and i think it is also an ignorant - also don't receive any help and i - think it is also an ignorant comment that the _ think it is also an ignorant comment that the gentleman _ think it is also an ignorant comment that the gentleman made, - think it is also an ignorant comment that the gentleman made, saying i think it is also an ignorant comment. that the gentleman made, saying you could have _ that the gentleman made, saying you could have it— that the gentleman made, saying you could have it worse. _ that the gentleman made, saying you could have it worse. i— that the gentleman made, saying you could have it worse. i don't _ that the gentleman made, saying you could have it worse. i don't think- could have it worse. i don't think you should — could have it worse. i don't think you should compare _ could have it worse. i don't think you should compare someone'si you should compare someone's struggle — you should compare someone's struggle to _ you should compare someone's struggle to another's. - you should compare someone's struggle to another's. we - you should compare someone's struggle to another's. we all. you should compare someone'sj struggle to another's. we all go through— struggle to another's. we all go through things _ struggle to another's. we all go through things differently - struggle to another's. we all go through things differently and i through things differently and regardless _ through things differently and regardless of— through things differently and regardless of whether- through things differently and . regardless of whether someone's through things differently and - regardless of whether someone's a struggle _ regardless of whether someone's a struggle is— regardless of whether someone's a struggle is worse _ regardless of whether someone's a struggle is worse than _ regardless of whether someone's a struggle is worse than the - regardless of whether someone's a struggle is worse than the other i regardless of whether someone's a struggle is worse than the other or| struggle is worse than the other or what _ struggle is worse than the other or what not. — struggle is worse than the other or what not. that— struggle is worse than the other or what not, that person _ struggle is worse than the other or what not, that person is _ struggle is worse than the other or what not, that person is trickling. i what not, that person is trickling. empathise — what not, that person is trickling. empathise with _ what not, that person is trickling. empathise with that _ what not, that person is trickling. empathise with that person. - what not, that person is trickling. empathise with that person. you i empathise with that person. you know, _ empathise with that person. you know. iust — empathise with that person. you know. iust help _ empathise with that person. you know, just help them. _ empathise with that person. you know, just help them. because i empathise with that person. you - know, just help them. because delac 'ust know, just help them. because delac just because — know, just help them. because delac just because your— know, just help them. because delac just because your battle _ know, just help them. because delac just because your battle is _ know, just help them. because delac just because your battle is smaller. just because your battle is smaller than another, _ just because your battle is smaller than another, you _ just because your battle is smaller than another, you are _ just because your battle is smaller than another, you are still- than another, you are still struggling _ than another, you are still struggling through - than another, you are still. struggling through something than another, you are still- struggling through something hard than another, you are still— struggling through something hard so don't compare — struggling through something hard so don't compare and _ struggling through something hard so don't compare and say— struggling through something hard so don't compare and say so _ struggling through something hard so don't compare and say so and - struggling through something hard so don't compare and say so and so - struggling through something hard so don't compare and say so and so hasi don't compare and say so and so has -ot don't compare and say so and so has got it— don't compare and say so and so has got it worse — don't compare and say so and so has got it worse no _ don't compare and say so and so has got it worse. no. you _ don't compare and say so and so has got it worse. no. you need - don't compare and say so and so has got it worse. no. you need to - got it worse. no. you need to

understand _ got it worse. no. you need to understand what— got it worse. no. you need to understand what everyone - got it worse. no. you need to understand what everyone isi got it worse. no. you need to - understand what everyone is going through _ understand what everyone is going throuuh. .. , understand what everyone is going throuuh. , ., ~ understand what everyone is going throuuh. , . understand what everyone is going through—julian through. exactly, thank you. julian jesso through. exactly, thank you. julian jessop referred — through. exactly, thank you. julian jessop referred to _ through. exactly, thank you. julian jessop referred to as _ through. exactly, thank you. julian jessop referred to as an _ through. exactly, thank you. julian jessop referred to as an advisor. .. | jessop referred to as an advisor... hi, julian, independent economist, fellow at the right—leaning institute of economic affairs. the institute of economic affairs. the institute for fiscal studies. we will let you come back, claire barrett, on this, as well, editor at the financial times. julian, the iss say that given inflation has riven to levels not seen in decades, rising interest rates are essentially inevitable —— the ifs. it will inevitably cause serious difficulties for families. the it will inevitably cause serious difficulties forfamilies. the uk benefit system provides relatively little support for low income mortgages compared to that that is on offer for low income renters, mortgages compared to that that is on offerfor low income renters, so there is not much of a safety net for those likely to struggle with rate rises. absolutely, pertinent to what we have been hearing. is it

inevitable, this rise, julian? i think that is a good place to start. i don't think it is inevitable that the bank of england has to raise interest rates. if the bank were more confident and particularly if it were more credible, then i think it were more credible, then i think it could pause now, it could say that it has already raised interest rates a lot, we know it takes time for that to feed through into the economy, particularly via the mortgage market. there is still more pain to come, whatever it does today. in addition i still think there are very good reasons to expect inflation to fall sharply in the second half of the year so i think the bank can afford to wait. unfortunately that option is probably now off the table. after the four inflation figures we had yesterday and also significant doubts about the credibility of the people that set interest rates at the bank particularly the governor bailey. it shouldn't be inevitable that interest rates will have to rise but i am afraid they are probably going to have to do it. for

how much longer, and what will precipitate this fall in inflation? well, as far as the full inflation is concerned, inflation has already started to fall pretty sharply in many other countries and i think it is only a matter of time before the same factors kick in here. we are already starting to see food and energy prices fall globally. use already starting to see food and energy prices fall globally. we have a deleted energy prices fall globally. we have a depleted labour— energy prices fall globally. we have a depleted labour market _ energy prices fall globally. we have a depleted labour market which - energy prices fall globally. we have . a depleted labour market which seems quite specific to this country, people not having gone back to work. even then there are signs of people returning to work and partly the flip side of higher pay. some people are worried about the impact of pay on inflation but also higher pay is starting to make work more attractive so there are signs that a lot of people who have dropped out of the labour market during covid are starting to return. we are not in a unique position here. for example, lots of countries in europe, like the netherlands, that also saw a big jump in headline inflation last year are now seeing the second round effects come through on wages in particular. the uk is not unique here. looking

forward, i think there are two things we can cling onto. one is my hope that the bank of england today, evenif hope that the bank of england today, even if it does raise interest rates, be able to signal that they then won't rise as far as the markets expect. that is what some economists call a dovish ike. you see panic about their where they are going. the other thing that will bail us out is inflation will start to fall pretty sharply in the coming months. lots of good reasons to expect that to happen. i think that should be enough to mean we avoid the recession that many fear. rachael and stacey, for you rachael, selling your dream home, people might say, well, you have a dream home, but it will resonate. it is heartbreaking. many people listening, most people will be absolutely heartbroken for you. claire, ithink absolutely heartbroken for you. claire, i think you want to talk about rachael's a situation. thank

ou, about rachael's a situation. thank you. rachael. _ about rachael's a situation. thank you, rachael, for _ about rachael's a situation. thank you, rachael, for sharing - about rachael's a situation. thank you, rachael, for sharing the - about rachael's a situation. thank| you, rachael, for sharing the awful experience you are going through. i can hear in your voicejust experience you are going through. i can hear in your voice just how emotional and how awful this is for you, this £950 increase you have been told is going to happen to your mortgage. my question for you is, have you spoken to your mortgage lender, and have they offered you any help? because this is the message that the banks are telling us that they will speak to borrowers and try to help, so i would be very interested to hear what, if anything, they have said they can do to help. anything, they have said they can do to hel. ~ , , , to help. well, this is where it 'ust com acts to help. well, this is where it 'ust compacts thefi to help. well, this is where it 'ust compacts the situation - to help. well, this is where itjust compacts the situation worse. . to help. well, this is where it just i compacts the situation worse. yes, to help. well, this is where it just . compacts the situation worse. yes, i have spoken — compacts the situation worse. yes, i have spoken to them, and... as i say. _ have spoken to them, and... as i say. because— have spoken to them, and... as i say, because of the situation we are in say, because of the situation we are in with— say, because of the situation we are in with the _ say, because of the situation we are in with the interest only, what happens — in with the interest only, what happens is, you know, you fill out your— happens is, you know, you fill out your form — happens is, you know, you fill out your form with your income and expenditure and everything else and~~ _ expenditure and everything else and... they basically said that what they can _ and... they basically said that what they can offer us is an option to go onto— they can offer us is an option to go

onto a _ they can offer us is an option to go onto a plan— they can offer us is an option to go onto a plan where they reduce the interest— onto a plan where they reduce the interest paying, pop it on the end of the _ interest paying, pop it on the end of the mortgage, but then that affects — of the mortgage, but then that affects the credit rating. so when we sell _ affects the credit rating. so when we sell the house and we need to take out— we sell the house and we need to take out a — we sell the house and we need to take out a mortgage to buy another house _ take out a mortgage to buy another house we — take out a mortgage to buy another house, we have got a damaged credit rating~ _ house, we have got a damaged credit rating~ and _ house, we have got a damaged credit rating~ and i— house, we have got a damaged credit rating. and i amjust house, we have got a damaged credit rating. and i am just both upset, gutted, — rating. and i am just both upset, gutted, and absolutely... i can't say how — gutted, and absolutely... i can't say how angry i am at the government at this— say how angry i am at the government at this situation that i should have my credit — at this situation that i should have my credit rating, our credit rating affected — my credit rating, our credit rating affected and our lives to this e>

going _ way that i see it is, well, we are going to — way that i see it is, well, we are going to add a few benefits to make it going to add a few benefits to make it took— going to add a few benefits to make it look like _ going to add a few benefits to make it look like we are doing something. but what _ it look like we are doing something. but what they do is they add it at one end — but what they do is they add it at one end and take it away at the other~ — but they are doing absolutely nothing — but they are doing absolutely nothing for people like myself in our situation. and i don't see how that benefits the country. i don't see how — that benefits the country. i don't see how this benefits anything. because — see how this benefits anything. because, as i say, we are now, as the lady_ because, as i say, we are now, as the lady before said, we had a good disposable — the lady before said, we had a good disposable income before, we were going _ disposable income before, we were going out— disposable income before, we were going out for dinner, we were going out to— going out for dinner, we were going out to eat _ going out for dinner, we were going out to eat a — going out for dinner, we were going out to eat a couple of nights a week, — out to eat a couple of nights a week, we _ out to eat a couple of nights a week, we were spending in the local area _ week, we were spending in the local area i— week, we were spending in the local area. i would go out with my carer and go _ area. i would go out with my carer and go and — area. i would go out with my carer and go and have lunch and go and have _ and go and have lunch and go and have coffee and do all the rest of it. have coffee and do all the rest of it we _ have coffee and do all the rest of it we do — have coffee and do all the rest of it. we do none of that now. and i

'ust it. we do none of that now. and i just cannot — it. we do none of that now. and i just cannot see how, well, ijust don't _ just cannot see how, well, ijust don't see — just cannot see how, well, ijust don't see the mentality of the people — don't see the mentality of the people sitting in government talking about— people sitting in government talking about this and going, yeah, we'll 'ust about this and going, yeah, we'll iust sit— about this and going, yeah, we'll iust sit and — about this and going, yeah, we'll just sit and leave it and hope it sorts— just sit and leave it and hope it sorts itself out. it just sit and leave it and hope it sorts itself out.— just sit and leave it and hope it sorts itself out. it was something i was saying — sorts itself out. it was something i was saying earlier, _ sorts itself out. it was something i was saying earlier, that _ sorts itself out. it was something i was saying earlier, that was - sorts itself out. it was something i was saying earlier, that was so - sorts itself out. it was something i | was saying earlier, that was so well put, rachel, it was something i was saying earlier on, claire, that a lot of it is in the abstract. i'm not saying it, obviously, but we get that a lot, more and more as we have been discussing the crises that people are going through, the crisis the country is going through, if we can call it that, we are giving people's lived experience, that's how many people see it, the feeling is coming through to me that the people in charge only see it in the abstract, they see it on a balance sheet, they see it on a spreadsheet, they see it as notional, they don't

see it as a real, they don't see it as a rachel and stacey see it. that's been more and more levelled at the people in charge. you can understand why.— at the people in charge. you can understand why. absolutely you can understand why. absolutely you can understand why _ understand why. absolutely you can understand why and _ understand why. absolutely you can understand why and i _ understand why. absolutely you can understand why and i think- understand why. absolutely you can understand why and i think that's i understand why and i think that's why it _ understand why and i think that's why it is — understand why and i think that's why it is so — understand why and i think that's why it is so important that you have phone _ why it is so important that you have phone ins. — why it is so important that you have phone ins, that you do speak to real people _ phone ins, that you do speak to real people and — phone ins, that you do speak to real people and get their voices up the news _ people and get their voices up the news agenda so that people don't make _ news agenda so that people don't make the — news agenda so that people don't make the sweeping comments and generalisations about those who can't _ generalisations about those who can't afford their mortgages. in terms _ can't afford their mortgages. in terms of— can't afford their mortgages. in terms of rachel's response. it is good _ terms of rachel's response. it is good in — terms of rachel's response. it is good in a — terms of rachel's response. it is good in a way, the bank has offered you a _ good in a way, the bank has offered you a solution, although it is one that will— you a solution, although it is one that will affect your credit rating. i know _ that will affect your credit rating. i know that there is huge nervousness amongst people about what will _ nervousness amongst people about what will happen to their credit score _ what will happen to their credit score if— what will happen to their credit score if they do agree with lenders to pay— score if they do agree with lenders to pay less, and ultimately there will be _ to pay less, and ultimately there will be an— to pay less, and ultimately there will be an impact. i think we need much _ will be an impact. i think we need much more — will be an impact. i think we need much more education from lenders and from the _ much more education from lenders and from the government about the impact

of these _ from the government about the impact of these solutions. because as nasty as it of these solutions. because as nasty as it is, _ of these solutions. because as nasty as it is, better than losing your house — as it is, better than losing your house, going through the repossession process. rachel sensibly — repossession process. rachel sensibly as having the conversation. but many— sensibly as having the conversation. but many people are too terrified to have the _ but many people are too terrified to have the conversation because they fear the _ have the conversation because they fear the consequences. but i would advise _ fear the consequences. but i would advise rachel especially who has phoned — advise rachel especially who has phoned up today, please speak to a debt adviser. you might think an independent one, run by charity, you might— independent one, run by charity, you might think— independent one, run by charity, you might think i'm not in that much of a problem. — might think i'm not in that much of a problem, i'm not quite up against the door, _ a problem, i'm not quite up against the door, but the need to understand the door, but the need to understand the impact _ the door, but the need to understand the impact of the credit rating change — the impact of the credit rating change, how long it will take to bear _ change, how long it will take to bear that — change, how long it will take to bear that out so that you can make the most _ bear that out so that you can make the most informed decision, that's what _ the most informed decision, that's what we _ the most informed decision, that's what we need more government money to be going _ what we need more government money to be going into because the debt industry. — to be going into because the debt industry, the charity is providing this industry, the charity is providing this free — industry, the charity is providing this free advice, they will be coming _ this free advice, they will be coming under so much pressure over the coming _ coming under so much pressure over the coming months and years. but the help they— the coming months and years. but the help they are offering people at the moment— help they are offering people at the moment is invaluable, much better, i must _ moment is invaluable, much better, i must say. _ moment is invaluable, much better, i must say, than the impression we are

given— must say, than the impression we are given from _ must say, than the impression we are given from our politicians, as you were _ given from our politicians, as you were saying. yes, that's what people were saying. yes, that's what people were saying, that is the vibe that you get — were saying, that is the vibe that ou net. �* ,., were saying, that is the vibe that ou aet.�* , were saying, that is the vibe that ouaet.�* . you get. i'm so pleased the credit ratin: you get. i'm so pleased the credit rating issue _ you get. i'm so pleased the credit rating issue came _ you get. i'm so pleased the credit rating issue came up, _ you get. i'm so pleased the credit rating issue came up, too. - you get. i'm so pleased the credit rating issue came up, too. more i you get. i'm so pleased the credit. rating issue came up, too. more to come, much more to come. it is 10:34am. and here is the news from karishma patel. thank you. interest rates are expected to go up at midday. economists predict that the base rate — currently at 4.5% — could increase by either a quarter — or even half — a percentage point. the search operation — for a missing submersible near the titanic wreck — is entering a critical phase. the oxygen supply for the five men on board is expected to run out within hours. a french ship — with a robot that can reach the seabed — is on its way to the site.

the uk had one of the worst increases in death rates of major european economies during the covid pandemic. according to bbc analysis. it was 5% higher in the three years after march 2020 — compared with the previous five yea rs. the us has become the second country — after singapore — to allow lab—grown meat to be offered to consumers. upside foods and good meat say their chicken — grown from animal cells — will soon be available in some restaurants. that was the news. now the support with shourjo sarkar. thank you. the multi—format women's ashes series is due to start shortly with england taking on australia in a five—day test match at trent bridge. our reporter elly oldroyd is there. welcome to a sunny trent bridge. australia havejust welcome to a sunny trent bridge. australia have just won the toss and will bat first. they are the dominant force in world cricket, they are the ashes holders, world cup holders in both formats as well. the series will unfold over one test and then three odis and 3t20s over

the next month. australia very dominant but england talking about being disruptors, about being brave. it sounds quite familiar, we are under way in 25 minutes. there's commentary of the cricket on 5 sports extra. newly promoted sheffield wednesday will kick off the championship season with the visit of relegated southampton to hillsborough on 4th august. leicester and leeds, who have been relegated from the premier league, will play cardiff and coventry, respectively. england play their first game of the u21 european championship against the czech republic later. germany and israel are also in the same group and play today. and the england men's rugby union team will travel to japan to play a test match next year. it'll be the first meeting between the sides onjapanese soil.

are they right to raise rates because they are going to? we will hear it at noon. higher and higher noon, as i said earlier, it could be 4.75%, it could be 5%, even. 13th rate rise in a row. are they right to do it? we have james in leeds, james in south—east london, couple of jamess and james in south—east london, couple ofjamess and a sharon. hi, sharon, hi, james in south—east london. james in leeds, i will have two rather formally call you james in leeds. we have a plethora ofjames. are they right to raise rates? i think for me, perhaps not a question of right and wrong, i've listened to the programme this morning and i

have followed this mortgage market, as a lot of people have done, quite religiously for the last 12 months or so. religiously for the last 12 months orso. i religiously for the last 12 months or so. i guess my point i wanted to make as there are several things that i think are quite important to make. first of all i wanted to start off with the education piece. i think it is really important that people are aware that they can start looking at their mortgage up to six months before it comes to the end of their deal. that's exactly what i did. you know, rates rising is nothing new to us in that respect. as you touched on there, this is the 13th rise in a row, i think you said. i think people do need to be a little bit more on the front foot with this. the other part two this is kind of then the main point i wanted to make which is i think there also needs to be some accountability on people's part with this. i totally empathise with people that are in difficult positions, people whose mortgages are doubling, tripling, quadrupling

in some cases. but we have a habit of living in the present and not learning the lessons from history. i was one of those people who was caught in the recession of 2007 after buying a house where i very quickly lost 20,000, £30,000 worth of equity, and spent the next ten years paying back negative equity but also being penalised on interest rates and having the ability to move my mortgage around. but i think there has been a sense in the last couple of years of a little bit of an element of living on the fact that interest rates are always going to be at 0.5%. i think people have to be at 0.5%. i think people have to take into account that was probably the perfect opportunity to be overpaying on your mortgage and reducing the debt because i don't hear people talking about the fact that people have taken advantage of these better times when they have had more disposable income to trying to clear their debt. i know that is

easier said in hindsight, to clear their debt. i know that is easiersaid in hindsight, but to clear their debt. i know that is easier said in hindsight, but as i say, we have history about interest rate rises, even going back to people i talk to in the 60s and 50s who talk about the interest rates in the 80s and early 90s. i think there has to be an accountability for people who have taken perhaps the advantage where the government froze the stamp duty period. in the advantage where the government froze the stamp duty period.— the stamp duty period. in the 80s and 90s there _ the stamp duty period. in the 80s and 90s there was _ the stamp duty period. in the 80s and 90s there was a _ the stamp duty period. in the 80s and 90s there was a far— the stamp duty period. in the 80s and 90s there was a far larger- and 90s there was a far larger difference between what you were borrowing and also the value of your house. it's not readily comparable. i understand that but people have to have accountability, if they are stretching themselves to the absolute max in the first place and taking 4.5, four times salary and not accounting for the fact that interest rates might rise, i think that's what we need to learn from these situations. we need to have more honest conversations about people not affording mortgages when they take them out but what about situation changes? it is very clear

when you take out a mortgage, and everybody can attest to this, but it is very clear that people are given prospective rates at the end of those deals, people are warned that interest rates go up—and—down. i think the third point i wanted to make is, we are also forgetting here that savers are benefiting from this period. i know that's not news to anybody but this is a population of people who have been marginalised for the last ten years in that there has been very little interest rate movement for those people. i think we need to offer more of a... marginalised is an interesting word. yeah, how much of the interest rate rise will be passed onto them by the banks is another question entirely. james, i want you to listen to the otherjames in south—east london. you heard james in leeds, what you say, james, in south—east london? hi, i've been listening as well this morning at first of all i'd like to agree with a lot of what james has been saying. i'm in my late 30s, may been saying. i'm in my late 30s, may be a little bit younger thanjames

from leeds but my wife and i have managed to buy a house two and i have managed to buy a house two and a half years ago in an area near where we grew up in south—east london. it is ourfamily home, our next home for at least 30 years, we have two young kids under five. our fixed mortgage is 1.8 that comes to an end at the end of this year, so the end of december, does james were saying a moment ago, we have been very proactive in terms of looking with our mortgage advisor to try and lock in a deal six months before our current mortgage expires. but you know, as you have been saying this morning, with interest rates more than certain to go up later this afternoon we are trying to get on the bandwagon early so that when it comes to december, god knows where the interest rates will be by that time. but i think we live in an era where there is such a huge gulf between in terms of generations, looking at what my parents would have bought at the price rises they have bought at the price rises they have seen of their property, which i think some of your callers, i think

marcus earlier today was sort of saying about the rises in the price of their home they have seen over those years, that's all well and good but there are lots of us don't want to stay in our homes that have got young families, that are in their 30s that have been caught between a rock and a hard place trying to get on the housing ladder with houses being so exorbitantly high, being offered mortgages that again, agreeing with whatjames sort of mentioned earlier, we always knew there would be a rise in rates, we didn't think these extremely low rates would last forever, but is the fact... i rates would last forever, but is the fact... ., , ., rates would last forever, but is the fact... .,, ., ., ., i. fact... i was going to ask, when you not the fact... i was going to ask, when you got the 1.896. _ fact... i was going to ask, when you got the 1.8%. i'm — fact... i was going to ask, when you got the 1.8%, i'm trying _ fact... i was going to ask, when you got the 1.8%, i'm trying to - fact... i was going to ask, when you got the 1.896, i'm trying to think - fact... i was going to ask, when you got the 1.896, i'm trying to think of. got the 1.8%, i'm trying to think of my own situation, we are all trying to think of our own situations, when we had those marvellous low interest rates if you were a borrower, did we think it was going to end? yes, we did. did we think it would get this bad so quickly? we probably didn't. what did you think? mr; bad so quickly? we probably didn't. what did you think?— what did you think? my wife and i, we tried to — what did you think? my wife and i, we tried to lock _ what did you think? my wife and i, we tried to lock in _ what did you think? my wife and i, we tried to lock in for— what did you think? my wife and i, we tried to lock in for as _ what did you think? my wife and i,

we tried to lock in for as long - what did you think? my wife and i, we tried to lock in for as long as i we tried to lock in for as long as we tried to lock in for as long as we could, we got a three year fixed mortgage, because again, i agree with you, i didn't think this would last forever, these ridiculously low rates, they couldn't do, i think of anything it was making the housing situation worse in terms of cost of housing, just pushing them higher and higher and higher. housing, just pushing them higher and higherand higher. and i mean, that's why luckily we are in a fortunate decision where —— position where we don't have any other debt, the only other debt we have as a married couple apart from student loans which we have paid off, is a mortgage. and our kids are wearing hand—me—down clothes from older cousins. we don't buy a everyday, we don't eat out every weekend. we have always lived between our means. i've been overpaying on my mortgage, i have some savings can but i think they will be decimated. the question i have hanging over my head is what am i going to do? lock myself into two five years? i was speaking to my dad, he thinks this can't go on for more than two years. probably two years is a good deal. that i listen to more things and i think gosh, maybe five years is a good amount of

time to lock it in for. that's really the sort of conundrum my wife and i are struggling with over the next few weeks. and uppishly months. we are living in hope that mortgage rates do really come down just to free up some much—needed cash. yes. free up some much-needed cash. yes, conundrum- — free up some much-needed cash. yes, conundrum- can _ free up some much-needed cash. yes, conundrum. can i _ free up some much-needed cash. yes, conundrum. can ijust _ free up some much-needed cash. yes, conundrum. can i just come _ free up some much-needed cash. yes, conundrum. can ijust come back - free up some much-needed cash. yes, conundrum. can i just come back to . conundrum. can i 'ust come back to james on conundrum. can i 'ust come back to james on that. — conundrum. can ijust come back to james on that. just _ conundrum. can ijust come back to james on that. just for _ conundrum. can ijust come back to james on that. just for context - conundrum. can ijust come back to james on that. just for context i'ml james on that. just for context i'm in my late 30s as well, just talking about the kind of decision making process that you are going through, i experienced exactly the same coming off a 1.85, two years rate. i've gone for a ten year fixed rate because for me stability is important. again, ithink because for me stability is important. again, i think this is back to the education piece. i was very lucky to have a really good mortgage broker who talked about things. the problem is we don't have a crystal ball. so nobody knows what is going to happen with rates. but you have to look at history. the general consensus from majority of brokers i have spoken to is we are not going to revisit a place where

interest rates are kind of below 1%, interest rates are kind of below i%, certainly not in the medium to short—term future. so i think again, and i completely empathise with people, it is really tough, but i think people have to also be on the front foot. i know your other call—up mentioned about reaching out to debt charities, but i work in financial services and i'm aware that certainly now there is far more support available from banks compared to the position i was in 15 years ago during the credit crunch when it was just we had years ago during the credit crunch when it wasjust we had lenders like northern rock collapsing and being put on two exorbitantly high rates. so people do need to pick up the phone. i get that it might be scary but there is support out there for people. but there is support out there for --eole. ., people. one thing going back, i can't believe — people. one thing going back, i can't believe we _ people. one thing going back, i can't believe we will _ people. one thing going back, i can't believe we will be - people. one thing going back, i can't believe we will be in - people. one thing going back, i can't believe we will be in this i can't believe we will be in this situation _ can't believe we will be in this situation for ten years in terms of rates _ situation for ten years in terms of rates going — situation for ten years in terms of rates going up. i agree, james, i don't — rates going up. i agree, james, i don't think— rates going up. i agree, james, i don't think we are going back to under— don't think we are going back to

under 2%, — don't think we are going back to under2%, but i don't think we are going back to under 2%, but i think with the mortgage _ under 2%, but i think with the mortgage rates that are going to come _ mortgage rates that are going to come up — mortgage rates that are going to come up between now and december, i wouldn't _ come up between now and december, i wouldn't be _ come up between now and december, i wouldn't be surprised if you are looking — wouldn't be surprised if you are looking at — wouldn't be surprised if you are looking at a 6% or higher. it's going — looking at a 6% or higher. it's going to — looking at a 6% or higher. it's going to be an amazing situation. what _ going to be an amazing situation. what about young buyers who haven't -ot what about young buyers who haven't got houses? how are they going to -et got houses? how are they going to get on _ got houses? how are they going to get on the — got houses? how are they going to get on the property ladder? if get on the property ladder? inflation get on the property ladder? if inflation comes down, to two experienced economists yourselves, if inflation comes down, will that not urge them to low interest rates as well? ., not urge them to low interest rates as well?- you _ not urge them to low interest rates as well?- you could _ not urge them to low interest rates as well?- you could say - not urge them to low interest rates as well? yeah. you could say that but aaain as well? yeah. you could say that but again there _ as well? yeah. you could say that but again there is _ as well? yeah. you could say that but again there is argument - as well? yeah. you could say that but again there is argument to . as well? yeah. you could say that but again there is argument to say that inflation and the bank of england rates are not connected. the bank of infant rates are ultimately set by the bank of england, they are not really influenced by the government.— not really influenced by the rovernment. , . ., _, government. they are in a context that the government _ government. they are in a context that the government creates. - government. they are in a context| that the government creates. they are but if you _ that the government creates. they are but if you see _ that the government creates. iie: are but if you see disposable that the government creates. i“ie: are but if you see disposable income coming down, orfreeing up, sorry, the government would likely want to see that it spent on things within the economy, i would guess. i think

we will see a reduction in interest rates in the future but for me i wanted the long—term security of knowing exactly what i'm going to be paying. to your point around first—time buyers, again, i think there has to be some kind of expectation management here and i think there needs to be more done perhaps in the product market for mortgages. we perhaps need to be a bit more revolutionary with mortgage products that support first—time buyers getting on the. there are lifetime mortgages that could be passed down. we need to think outside the box for that kind of thing. outside the box for that kind of thin. �* .,, ' outside the box for that kind of thin. �* ' ., , thing. almost 1.4 million people, worth reminding, _ thing. almost 1.4 million people, worth reminding, 690,000 - thing. almost 1.4 million people, worth reminding, 690,000 of. thing. almost 1.4 million people, . worth reminding, 690,000 of whom thing. almost 1.4 million people, - worth reminding, 690,000 of whom are under 40, that's you guys, will see the disposable incomes fall by over 20%, march 2022 up to march 2023. we have lynn and sharon. interesting hearing from both of the james is.

sharon and lynn, good morning. in salisbury. should they raise the rates? ., ,., salisbury. should they raise the rates? ., , ., rates? no. i feel so sorry for the gentlemen _ rates? no. i feel so sorry for the gentlemen you _ rates? no. i feel so sorry for the gentlemen you were _ rates? no. i feel so sorry for the gentlemen you were talking - rates? no. i feel so sorry for the gentlemen you were talking to i rates? no. i feel so sorry for the i gentlemen you were talking to just now. i and a daughter aged 31 and 33. they both lived at home, save the really hard until they got married and bought their first home six or seven years ago, they both have two—year—old sons, they all work, the four of them work, none of them are high earners. this interest rate is on top of power which has gone up for them, £40, £50 a month, council tax has gone up £30 a month, one of them pays nearly £600 a month in nursery fees. and this isjust, you know, where is it going to end? we are in an expensive area. i appreciate what the gentleman has

said about selling your house and making your money from it, but they are in first—time buyer homes, which evenin are in first—time buyer homes, which even in salisbury six or seven years ago £200,000, so with children as well they can't sell up and move to a lower priced house because there is nowhere else to go. an extra £200 a month for each of them on top of everything else with food and amenities, things like that, you can shopin amenities, things like that, you can shop in cheaper places if there is something that you don't really need, you don't have it, or you buy a cheaper option. but with the mortgage you have no choice. it’s mortgage you have no choice. it's true. sharon, good morning. mortgage you have no choice. it's| true. sharon, good morning. good morninu. true. sharon, good morning. good morning- i'm _ true. sharon, good morning. good morning. i'm speaking _ true. sharon, good morning. good morning. i'm speaking from a different— morning. i'm speaking from a different point of view because i'm coming _ different point of view because i'm coming from the renter's side again. i think— coming from the renter's side again. i think it's _ coming from the renter's side again. i think it's totally unjustified that— i think it's totally unjustified that people when they own property is, that people when they own property is, 0k. _ that people when they own property is, 0k. i— that people when they own property is, 0k. i do— that people when they own property is, ok, i do sympathise with them, but i'm looking at it from our point

of view, _ but i'm looking at it from our point of view, my— but i'm looking at it from our point of view, my partner has been ill 17 years— of view, my partner has been ill 17 years now. — of view, my partner has been ill 17 years now, and cannot get on the housing _ years now, and cannot get on the housing market. we probably will never— housing market. we probably will never be — housing market. we probably will never be able to get on the housing market— never be able to get on the housing market now— never be able to get on the housing market now so we are stuck in the renting _ market now so we are stuck in the renting loop. these people do have a home _ renting loop. these people do have a home to _ renting loop. these people do have a home to sell. they do have something that is— home to sell. they do have something that is bricks _ home to sell. they do have something that is bricks and mortar they can sell to— that is bricks and mortar they can sell to make their life better. we don't _ sell to make their life better. we don't we — sell to make their life better. we don't. we are stuck in a renting loop _ don't. we are stuck in a renting loop if— don't. we are stuck in a renting loop if our— don't. we are stuck in a renting loop. if our landlord decides he wants— loop. if our landlord decides he wants to — loop. if our landlord decides he wants to sell up we are done for. we have nowhere to go. no one is going to help _ have nowhere to go. no one is going to help us _ have nowhere to go. no one is going to help us. we don't have that. i was to help us. we don't have that. was going to help us. we don't have that. i was going to say, my children buy but i rent. i did have a home when i was married, i got divorced, i couldn't afford to buy a new home. i am in a rented house, i'm on a pension, i haven't got any other income. i'm very lucky that i've got a very good landlord and he has said he is not going to put my rent up for two years, which was great. but

he is in his late 80s. when anything happens for him in the house sells i'm not going to have a choice. what do i do? i can see it from both sides because they have bought houses, i don't have one. the problem _ houses, i don't have one. the problem nowadays _ houses, i don't have one. the problem nowadays as well as the world _ problem nowadays as well as the world has— problem nowadays as well as the world has been doing the keep up with the _ world has been doing the keep up with the jones thing for a long time — with the jones thing for a long time my— with the jones thing for a long time, my friend has a bigger house, i need _ time, my friend has a bigger house, i need a _ time, my friend has a bigger house, i need a bigger house now. i've seen it i need a bigger house now. i've seen it happen _ i need a bigger house now. i've seen it happen to— i need a bigger house now. i've seen it happen to my friends. now they are struggling with mortgages they probably shouldn't have taken on in the first— probably shouldn't have taken on in the first place because they are living _ the first place because they are living the — the first place because they are living the life that everybody else had. living the life that everybody else had i'm — living the life that everybody else had. i'm sorry, why should the government put into place helpful people _ government put into place helpful people who have a house? no. i grew up people who have a house? no. i grew up through— people who have a house? no. i grew up through the 70s and 80s, i saw my parents _ up through the 70s and 80s, i saw my parents struggle to pay a mortgage, to put— parents struggle to pay a mortgage, to put food on the table. they didn't— to put food on the table. they didn't ask— to put food on the table. they didn't ask for help from any body else _ didn't ask for help from any body else they— didn't ask for help from any body else. theyjust had to get on with it. else. theyjust had to get on with it as _ else. theyjust had to get on with it. as people have said on this programme today, and i appreciate everything — programme today, and i appreciate everything everyone has said, we don't _ everything everyone has said, we don't have — everything everyone has said, we don't have a crystal ball. the main thing _ don't have a crystal ball. the main thing i— don't have a crystal ball. the main thing i think— don't have a crystal ball. the main thing i think everyone needs to take from this— thing i think everyone needs to take from this again is you can't overstretch yourself. we never know

what's _ overstretch yourself. we never know what's going to happen. people can't keep asking for help when they are the ones _ keep asking for help when they are the ones that bought this house that maybe _ the ones that bought this house that maybe they shouldn't have bought in the first _ maybe they shouldn't have bought in the first place. i appreciate it is expensive — the first place. i appreciate it is expensive in salisbury. we live in a very expensive area and we are lucky we are _ very expensive area and we are lucky we are managing, we have a very low rent luckily— we are managing, we have a very low rent luckily because we keep the house _ rent luckily because we keep the house up— rent luckily because we keep the house up together like it is ours and the — house up together like it is ours and the garden etc. but again we have _ and the garden etc. but again we have nothing to sell. if we get pushed — have nothing to sell. if we get pushed out of here these people with a home _ pushed out of here these people with a home whose mortgages are going up, house _ a home whose mortgages are going up, house prices— a home whose mortgages are going up, house prices are going up as well. we have _ house prices are going up as well. we have anotherjames to come to as well in a second. let me give you some breaking news. lancashire police say a 59—year—old man has been arrested under the explosives act by officers executing a search warrant in leyland. a number of suspicious items were found, several properties evacuated well. that's just in. and there will be more on the bbc news website and app throughout the day and on 5 live as well. sorry for the interruption but some breaking news there. we have james in leeds and james in

south—east london, sharon and lynn and anotherjames in belfast. good morning, what you want to say? just a ruick morning, what you want to say? just a quick one — morning, what you want to say? just a quick one in _ morning, what you want to say? jut a quick one in relation to morning, what you want to say? ji,3t a quick one in relation to people who are in arrears with their mortgage. ifall into who are in arrears with their mortgage. i fall into that bracket. i lost myjob after covid, had about six months where i was on benefits trying to make it work or whatever. but if you are in arrears with your mortgage, there is no option. you know, you cannot get anything of it, they were literally not offer you anything until those arrears are paid off. my mortgage has gone from 300 times about six years ago, it is now up over a grand —— £300. i am a single person household. it isjust unbearable to try and even see a way out without selling your property. what are you supposed to do?

unbearable.— what are you supposed to do? unbearable. �* ., , ., ., unbearable. another strong word. what is annoying _ unbearable. another strong word. what is annoying about _ unbearable. another strong word. what is annoying about all - unbearable. another strong word. what is annoying about all of - unbearable. another strong word. what is annoying about all of this| what is annoying about all of this is what is annoying about all of this is these — what is annoying about all of this is these people have a property to sell, is these people have a property to sell. they— is these people have a property to sell, they have bricks and mortar that they— sell, they have bricks and mortar that they can continue on with. people — that they can continue on with. people in — that they can continue on with. people in a renting situation, again. — people in a renting situation, again, rent is going up but if you -et again, rent is going up but if you get pushed out of your rental property— get pushed out of your rental property you are gone. you might lose our property you are gone. you might lose your home, _ property you are gone. you might lose your home, james. - property you are gone. you might lose your home, james. i - property you are gone. you might lose your home, james. i get - property you are gone. you might lose your home, james. i get it, i property you are gone. you might i lose your home, james. i get it, you have an asset _ lose your home, james. i get it, you have an asset you _ lose your home, james. i get it, you have an asset you can _ lose your home, james. i get it, you have an asset you can sell, - lose your home, james. i get it, you have an asset you can sell, that i lose your home, james. i get it, you have an asset you can sell, that is i have an asset you can sell, that is ok. however, with the arrears 0k. however, with the arrears situation the credit file is one where you will not get another mortgage. the fact that property prices have gone up means that you are going to have to spend the exact same amountand are going to have to spend the exact same amount and be in the exact same position without a home. you know, just because you own a property, you don't own the property, the bank owns the property until you pay it off. you are at the mercy of whatever they decide your mortgage

is. there is no option. i have discussed with my mortgage people, can we add the debt onto the end of the mortgage? no. no, we can't. we can maybe look at that in a year plus 's time but in the meantime you will pay £1500 a month for a two—bedroom small property. you know, it's not like you are living in luxury. so again, yes, you can sell the property but you are going to be in the same position you are going to be put into the rental market where you are at the mercy of a landlord. god knows what happens next. in this crisis. it'sjust never ending. next. in this crisis. it's 'ust never ending- next. in this crisis. it's 'ust never ending. next. in this crisis. it's 'ust never endinu. ~ ., , ., never ending. what is the way out? what is the — never ending. what is the way out? what is the solution? _ never ending. what is the way out? what is the solution? unless - never ending. what is the way out? what is the solution? unless you i what is the solution? unless you have loads of money or you are a saver. fir have loads of money or you are a saver. , ., . y have loads of money or you are a saver. , ., ., , ., , saver. or you have very wealthy arents saver. or you have very wealthy parents who _ saver. or you have very wealthy parents who can _ saver. or you have very wealthy parents who can help _ saver. or you have very wealthy parents who can help you. i saver. or you have very wealthy parents who can help you. the i saver. or you have very wealthy i parents who can help you. the bank of mum and — parents who can help you. the bank of mum and dad. _ parents who can help you. the bank of mum and dad. it _ parents who can help you. the bank of mum and dad. it is _ parents who can help you. the bank of mum and dad. it is stretched. i parents who can help you. the bank| of mum and dad. it is stretched. the bank of mum and dad are going broke

themselves! ., �* , bank of mum and dad are going broke themselves! . �* , ., �* themselves! that's what i'm saying. never mind — themselves! that's what i'm saying. never mind the _ themselves! that's what i'm saying. never mind the bank— themselves! that's what i'm saying. never mind the bank of— themselves! that's what i'm saying. never mind the bank of england, i themselves! that's what i'm saying. | never mind the bank of england, the bank of mum and dad. james, what is going on? what is the way out? look where we are? look at what is happening, what needs to happen, james? i happening, what needs to happen, james? ~ ., happening, what needs to happen, james? ~' . ., james? i think we need a general election. something _ james? i think we need a general election. something needs i james? i think we need a general election. something needs to i james? i think we need a general- election. something needs to change. agreed. 13 election. something needs to change. aareed. , . , election. something needs to change. aareed. "~_ . , election. something needs to change. aareed. . , , election. something needs to change. areed. , . , , election. something needs to change. areed. . , , ., agreed. 13 years has been too long. i cannot name _ agreed. 13 years has been too long. i cannot name a _ agreed. 13 years has been too long. i cannot name a single _ agreed. 13 years has been too long. i cannot name a single thing - agreed. 13 years has been too long. i cannot name a single thing in i agreed. 13 years has been too long. i cannot name a single thing in the i i cannot name a single thing in the last 13 years there has got better. the nhs has not got better, housing has not got better, school facilities have not got better in 13 years. something needs to change and i think we need a general election. you haven't even got a functioning government where you are. absolutely not, the government where you are. absolutely not. they collect _ government where you are. absolutely not, they collect £80,000 _ government where you are. absolutely not, they collect £80,000 a _ government where you are. absolutely not, they collect £80,000 a year- government where you are. absolutely not, they collect £80,000 a year and i not, they collect £80,000 a year and don't go to work, you know what i mean? i don't know what they do with their day. i think it is five grand a month after tax. that would be nice. maybe i will run for government, maybe that's what i will do, just sit at home collecting a

cheque, no problem. i do, just sit at home collecting a cheque, no problem.— do, just sit at home collecting a cheque, no problem. i agree with what james _ cheque, no problem. i agree with what james in _ cheque, no problem. i agree with what james in belfast _ cheque, no problem. i agree with what james in belfast just - cheque, no problem. i agree with what james in belfastjust said. i cheque, no problem. i agree with i what james in belfastjust said. i'm whatjames in belfastjust said. i'm looking _ whatjames in belfastjust said. i'm looking forward to a general election— looking forward to a general election next year. i can't see anything _ election next year. i can't see anything that's happened over the last, anything that's happened over the last. since — anything that's happened over the last, since covid especially, that's gone _ last, since covid especially, that's gone particularly well for this country _ gone particularly well for this country. we can find money to bailout — country. we can find money to bailout the banks, i don't think we should _ bailout the banks, i don't think we should bail— bailout the banks, i don't think we should bail out homeowners, i agree that, should bailout homeowners, i agree that, but— should bail out homeowners, i agree that, but i— should bail out homeowners, i agree that, but i think they need to realise — that, but i think they need to realise the public helped them in a time realise the public helped them in a time of— realise the public helped them in a time of crisis in 2008 and now it is time _ time of crisis in 2008 and now it is time to— time of crisis in 2008 and now it is time to return the favour in some sort of— time to return the favour in some sort of way — time to return the favour in some sort of way. if that doesn't mean extending — sort of way. if that doesn't mean extending mortgages to 40 years, 45 years plus, _ extending mortgages to 40 years, 45 years plus, keeping people indebted. ithink— years plus, keeping people indebted. i think fundamentally we don't have enough _ i think fundamentally we don't have enough housing stock in this country _ enough housing stock in this country i— enough housing stock in this country. i know nobody wants a massive — country. i know nobody wants a massive new build a state built literally— massive new build a state built literally in their back garden, i understand that, that typically tends — understand that, that typically tends to— understand that, that typically tends to be the older generation of that firm _ tends to be the older generation of that firm opinion. but you know, that's— that firm opinion. but you know, that's a — that firm opinion. but you know, that's a fundamental problem. we don't _ that's a fundamental problem. we don't have — that's a fundamental problem. we don't have enough housing stock in this don't have enough housing stock in this country— don't have enough housing stock in this country to meet the needs of

our population and fundamentally it is becoming such a generational divide _ is becoming such a generational divide but — is becoming such a generational divide but also a divide between people — divide but also a divide between people of the same generation, homeowners and non—homeowners. not getting _ homeowners and non—homeowners. not getting better. it seems to be getting — getting better. it seems to be getting worse in my opinion. we will aet getting worse in my opinion. we will net the getting worse in my opinion. we will get the interest _ getting worse in my opinion. we will get the interest rate _ getting worse in my opinion. we will get the interest rate announcement | get the interest rate announcement at noon. you can hear it on bbc news, and 5 live, of course. it's going to go up. thank you very much to our callers this morning. chief medical officer for england professor chris whitty is due to appear before the covid in korea later this morning. we thought it more vessels join the search for t! this bmersible more vessels join the search for t! this morning. we thought it would be sooner but it will be later this morning. we thought it would be sooner but it will be later, giving evidence as part of later, giving evidence as part of the first module of the inquiry the first module of the inquiry which is looking at how prepared we which is looking at how prepared we were for the pandemic. we will bring were for the pandemic. we will bring that e 15 live and bbc news as it that e 15 live and bbc news as it happens. top notch callers this happens. top notch callers this for the submersible morning. morning. live from london, this is bbc news.

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